S12.E07: Rock Never Dies

[Morrigan2575]

I decided to rewatch this episode last night and I really enjoyed it both times around.  First time I watched I really didn't think much of Castiel being off, character wise (I've never noticed anything before).  However, since it was brought up on the board I seemed to take more notice last night.  I've decided (right or wrong) that the reason Castiel was so OOC was due to prolonged exposure to Crowley.  Being around Crowley 24/7 for the past several weeks, has turned Castiel into a cranky, sarcastic, Angelic version of Crowley.

Personally, I love the Crowley/Castiel pairing, so this works for me.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I decided to rewatch this episode last night and I really enjoyed it both times around.  First time I watched I really didn't think much of Castiel being off, character wise (I've never noticed anything before).  However, since it was brought up on the board I seemed to take more notice last night.  I've decided (right or wrong) that the reason Castiel was so OOC was due to prolonged exposure to Crowley.  Being around Crowley 24/7 for the past several weeks, has turned Castiel into a cranky, sarcastic, Angelic version of Crowley.

Personally, I love the Crowley/Castiel pairing, so this works for me.

It's working for me too other than I really don't care about Lucifer.

I'm still doing my rewatch from this summer and am currently on the back half of S10. Cass is pretty sarcastic and snarky when he's tooling around the countryside with not-so-marvy Marv, so I'm not sure there isn't already a precedence for how Cass is acting right now. I can sympathize with Cass, being locked in a car for weeks with either Marv or Crowley would probably try my patience too...or, it would totally amuse me. Sometimes it's a fine line to see on these things. ;)

[pixelcat]

On 12/4/2016 at 11:15 PM, SueB said:

Cas can't heal him (just t like he couldn't heal Meg).

I always wondered about this, is this A Thing?  Angels can't heal demon meatsuits?  I felt so bad for Crowley standing there with one eye swelled shut and kept saying "Heal him already Cas!"  but that would explain it.

All these great comments now make me want to rewatch this episode.  Guess I know what I have planned for tonight!

[catrox14]

I thought  Crowley, with more powers than an average crossroads demon, could heal his meatsuit, which is why he could wear it for tens of years. or at least speed the healing process. Granted this was an archangel beat down but he's been jacked up before. IMO, he chose  to show his beaten face to garner Dean's sympathy and show he was committed to TFW. Also,  demon! Dean could self heal,  but maybe he was a special case because of the Mark.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh that's interesting. I wondered why Castiel didn't heal Crowley.  Although, I also wondered why Crowley couldn't heal himself.  Maybe he just wanted to show his war wounds?  Maybe Demons can't heal as quickly as Angels, so it's just a rapid healing rate instead of instantaneous? 

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh that's interesting. I wondered why Castiel didn't heal Crowley.  Although, I also wondered why Crowley couldn't heal himself.  Maybe he just wanted to show his war wounds?  Maybe Demons can't heal as quickly as Angels, so it's just a rapid healing rate instead of instantaneous? 

Meg was able to heal herself immediately after being tossed from a window. Seems like Crowley must have been trying to show his battle scars.

[Diane]

I just assumed they didn't show him healing his meat suit.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also,  demon! Dean could self heal,  but maybe he was a special case because of the Mark.

Yes, this was only something Dean could do, because he was a Knight of Hell. (Also Cain and I think Abbadon, too). Regular demons can't self heal as far as I know.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Meg was able to heal herself immediately after being tossed from a window.

Meg reanimated the body, but as far as I know, the internal wounds were still there. That's why the real Meg died once the demon Meg was exorcised. If Meg could actually heal the body, the real Meg shouldn't have died, because her body would've been healed.

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Maybe Demons can't heal as quickly as Angels, so it's just a rapid healing rate instead of instantaneous?

I think demons can keep a body alive, but if it is a mortal wound beyond what a human body could overcome on its own, the meatsuit is a goner. We've seen lots of demons wounded, and none of them heal instantaneously (Except Dean) or even quickly that we've seen. Ruby for example, was still bleeding when she "delivered" Azazel after being tortured by him in "Heaven and Hell." Jeffery had a whole slew of injuries after Sam and Dean tried to get information out of the demon in his body and the demon was exorcised in "Repo Man." And most of the meatsuits that Abbadon's demons previously had and abandoned for the soldier bodies had evidence of slow healing wounds, some mortal - Sam found bullet wound scars and such on the bodies, figuring out that they had been demon meatsuits, because they had outwardly "healed" from potentially mortal wounds, but the meatsuits had died after the demons left (because the mortal part of the injuries were likely still there).

When an angel heals someone, however, there isn't a trace of the injury - i.e. no scars. Regular demons can't do this. They can keep the body alive, but my guess is that the body has to heal "normally" which is why there is scarring, and mortal wounds - such as damage to the heart or other internal organs - don't really heal, and the human host dies once the demon is exorcised.

The biggest evidence for this is Ruby's second meatsuit. She took over after the girl died in her coma, but the body was only animated by Ruby - she never healed it, which she likely would've done if she could've once the soul vacated. When she went body hopping into the maid to warn Sam and Dean, she mentioned that her meatsuit was "rotting away back in the barn" as she spoke, meaning that it was dead. No healing had been done.

So I've always thought that demons have to heal the usual way regular humans do, except that they can animate the body while the healing is taking place - if healing is in the cards - and keep the body animated if the healing is beyond what the human body can normally do.

Edited December 6, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

The little injury was so minor, I never thought that Demon!Dean could heal it because he was a Knight of hell. They gave him no real fancy powers so IMO the scene was just supposed to be showing to Cole that he was a supernatural being. I`m sure if need be the writers would make any random demon do just the same. It meant nothing really. In terms of powers, Demon!Dean was the huggest letdown ever.

And in this episode, once again, everyone just looked right into basically angelic grace when Lucifer phased out. They just blinked a little against the brightness. Back when Anna did receive her grace, it was supposed to be such a big deal, now that has been retconned into basically like having a bright light shone into your face.

I would say someone should have at least written down some ground rules about the Supernatural if new writers can`t be bothered to check up on old stuff but at this point nearly everything has been trashed so it seems pointless now. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m sure if need be the writers would make any random demon do just the same.

It's actually one canon they've kept pretty consistent as far as I remember. Whenever Sam and Dean torture a demon, we've never seen them heal that I recall. Not even Alastair healed when Dean tortured him*, and he couldn't even be killed by the demon knife. While I'm pretty sure that Crowley can be killed by the demon knife, so to me it makes sense that he couldn't heal himself here in this episode.

* That I remember anyway. That's not an episode that I rewatch, so I can't remember if there was any healing after Alastair escaped the devil's trap and before Sam killed him.

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The little injury was so minor, I never thought that Demon!Dean could heal it because he was a Knight of hell. They gave him no real fancy powers so IMO the scene was just supposed to be showing to Cole that he was a supernatural being.

No they didn't give Dean any real flashy powers,* but he did have immortality - which the self-healing is a part of. While not necessarily flashy, in my opinion, immortality is a pretty hefty power to have. And at the time he had the mark - and after he killed Cain - Dean was the only being in the world (that we knew of) who was basically unkillable, except maybe by Death or God. In my opinion, that pretty's powerful, so I guess it depends on how you look at it.

* But then again, I didn't really consider Sam's powers all that flashy either, especially in the beginning. Compared to mind manipulation, telekinesis, and some of the other special kids' powers, Sam's were fairly lame. Then when he did get a somewhat showy power - the ability to exorcise and kill demons - it was branded as "bad" and "evil," and Sam needed to drink demon blood in order for the powers to even manifest, and if he was low on demon blood, he couldn't perform.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

While not necessarily flashy, in my opinion, immortality is a pretty hefty power to have. 

Technically yes but for me in a story that only comes into play when I can "see" it aka when a character is actually at least a hundred years old and still looks then same. Then immportality has a cool depiction. Before that it`s way too theoretical for me to count. On the other hand, if flashy powers are branded evil means less to me than having a couple of scenes with cool visual depictions.

Like Lucifer-in-Vince, they neutered the character a good deal but some decent visuals and powers still make him count somewhat. The scene with the fossilized feather and healing himself, that wasn`t bad if a bit small-fry compared to him spreading his wings in ep 1 or 2. In a visual medium, I absolutely wanna SEE some flashy stuff for my supernatural. So for Demon!Dean I had been looking forward to that. More fool me. At least with MOC!Dean, they gave me a bit here and there.   

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Meg reanimated the body, but as far as I know, the internal wounds were still there. That's why the real Meg died once the demon Meg was exorcised. If Meg could actually heal the body, the real Meg shouldn't have died, because her body would've been healed.

Well, yes, she basically reanimated the body, but she also didn't show any outward signs of injury like Crowley did here. I'm saying that it seemed kinda silly Crowley's face was all beat up at the end of this episode since no other demon has ever shown battle wounds as long as the demon is inside them. Once the demon vacates the vessel, their previous injuries come back.

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It's actually one canon they've kept pretty consistent as far as I remember. Whenever Sam and Dean torture a demon, we've never seen them heal that I recall. Not even Alastair healed when Dean tortured him*, and he couldn't even be killed by the demon knife. While I'm pretty sure that Crowley can be killed by the demon knife, so to me it makes sense that he couldn't heal himself here in this episode.

When Dean was torturing Alistair, Alistair was bound in a devil's trap and powerless, so he wouldn't have been able to heal himself.

I don't think Crowley could be killed by the demon knife anymore. Back in S5, yes, but I think he's too powerful now. Remember the knife didn't even phase Alistair (when he wasn't bound in a devil's trap, that is) and I would think Crowley is more powerful than he was at this point.

Edited December 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Good point about the devil's trap, but I disagree about the battle wounds. As I mentioned above, Ruby was still bleeding after her torture from Alistair when she returned to Sam and Dean in "Heaven and Hell". Meg also showed signs from her torture by Crowley (in season 8) when she was working with Sam and Dean to get the artifacts (?) needed for translation (whatever it was they were looking for in Lucifer's crypts - I don't rewatch season 8 if I can help it). And there were the scars Sam found on Abbadon's demons' first hosts. I'm probably forgetting some also.

Meg fell out the window, so I just assumed most of her injuries were internal. Either that, or the demon lore about that evolved over time maybe, because later on, I don't remember demons healing that quickly.

[catrox14]

So I decided to consult the SuperWiki on demon powers :

I think Crowley could have healed himself.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Demonology#Lower-hierarchy_powers

Quote

Lower-hierarchy powers

• Telepathy and telekinesis - Demons can read minds. Some can influence an object's movement with their minds.
• Superhuman strength and enhanced endurance - While hosting a demonic entity, a human's body can be made to perform extraordinary feats and resist damage. However, when the demon leaves, the host often dies of its injuries.
• Seeing reapers - Like angels, demons can perceive entities that are invisible to human beings, like reapers.
• Can resurrect or heal people, but only if a deal is made.
• Capable of overpowering Alphas; a group of demons captured the Alpha Vampire on Crowley's orders, though only after it had been injected with enough dead man's blood to bring down a nest of regular vampires, and when they all attacked at once.

Upper-hierarchy powers

• Mind control - Demons can influence and control the actions of human beings.
• Pyrokinesis (known: Azazel, Brady; shown: Crowley)
• Injury to humans by thought (shown: Azazel)
• Destruction of objects with telekinesis (shown: Crowley) and with the "fiery white light" (shown: Lilith, Samhain)
• Overpowering or possessing reapers (overpowering: Alastair, possessing: Azazel)
• Resurrecting people at will (Crowley, claimed).
• Ability to exorcise and send lower-tier demons back to Hell with a single touch. (Abaddon)
• Smiting other demons with a touch. (Cain)
• Ability to partially enter a human's body to extract information (Abaddon)
• While in Hell turning demons to dust with a snap of their fingers (Crowley)
• Ability to smell someone and know their previous location (Crowley)

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As I mentioned above, Ruby was still bleeding after her torture from Alistair when she returned to Sam and Dean in "Heaven and Hell". Meg also showed signs from her torture by Crowley

When Ruby was tortured by Alistair, I would assume he was doing something to keep her de-powered--maybe the extra-special demon-torture table had something to do with it?--so no healing abilities would be available. I would think Crowley would've done something to keep Meg de-powered too or else she would've bolted long before they found her.

I think their ability to heal is directly proportionate to how powerful they are. So, with Meg getting thrown out of a window, there was nothing actually de-powering her, so she was able to reanimate and heal her meatsuit rather quickly. When When she was tortured by Crowley, he'd been holding her for over a year in a de-powered state, it probably took some time to power back up and heal her meatsuit. I'm pretty sure all her "wounds" were no longer present when she and Sam were chatting outside the crypt.

Maybe we shouldn't call it healing, because it's not really the right term if once they vacate the body, it returns to it's previous state? Maybe "fix" is a better term?

Thinking on this more, though, the show missed the boat on having demons walking around with bullet holes in their heads, knife wounds on their chests or whatnot. ;)

[SueB]

Except DemonDean, Cain, and Abbadon, they don't heal.  I think that's really clear.  That set the knights apart.  

[ahrtee]

17 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think their ability to heal is directly proportionate to how powerful they are. So, with Meg getting thrown out of a window, there was nothing actually de-powering her, so she was able to reanimate and heal her meatsuit rather quickly. When When she was tortured by Crowley, he'd been holding her for over a year in a de-powered state, it probably took some time to power back up and heal her meatsuit. I'm pretty sure all her "wounds" were no longer present when she and Sam were chatting outside the crypt.

IA that healing takes a lot of power (Cas couldn't heal himself when he was low on grace) so I'd guess the demon minions either don't have that kind of power, or don't want to waste it on healing.  They can reanimate as long as the body is still functional, but if it becomes too damaged, they just dump it and find another.  They don't need to heal it.  That doesn't prove that they *can't* heal them.

The only ones who healed their meatsuits were the ones who were invested in those particular bodies (Meg, Crowley (even when he was still a crossroads demon, I think?) and Ruby.)  Alistair's first body was destroyed by an angel blast, so he couldn't repair it, though I'm assuming he healed the knife wound he got in the church when he found Anna?  Or maybe they were just higher in the demon hierarchy (Ruby didn't seem to be, but Meg was Azazel's daughter (?)) so maybe they just had more juice.

I seem to remember Dean (I think it was in Caged Heat?) telling the others to shoot out demon kneecaps...it wouldn't kill them but would stop them from chasing them, which implied they can't heal immediately or make a body do something it's not physically capable of (ie, walking on broken knees?)   It was just a delaying tactic, till they either found other meatsuits or healed.  I'm pretty sure Meg had some broken bones from going out the window, so I'd guess she healed them or she would have been walking *very* funny for quite a while.  It did take a while for her to show up again after the fall, which might have given her the time she needed to heal.

Knights of Hell seem to have the power to heal immediately.  That doesn't mean others can't do it if they have the time/energy/desire.

I think the show's been inconsistent enough that we can't really come to any conclusion except that the writers will make them do whatever they need for the purpose of the story.  

[mertensia]

Well, whether Crowley can or can't heal himself, he wouldn't have done so before Sam and Dean can see for themselves that he did help.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Well, whether Crowley can or can't heal himself, he wouldn't have done so before Sam and Dean can see for themselves that he did help.

I agree.  I think Crowley was wearing his battle scars for full effect. 

[Morrigan2575]

I can see that. It's certainly in character for Crowly to play that stuff up. 

[mrsnolatron]

Did I miss the explanation of the girlfriend's yanked tooth?

[MysteryGuest]

 No, there was no explanation.  I guess we are to assume that it was another "act of love" Lucifer asked for.  That woman had more than a few screws loose.

[Katy M]

I watched this again when it was on last night.  I didn't like it as well the second time around.  I was thinking of watching Lotus because I didn't think it was possible to like it less, and maybe I would like it more, but I decided to pass.  I still felt bad for Tommy, though.  Man, he was an idiot.  But, that doesn't mean he deserved to die. 

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 3:04 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I think demons can keep a body alive, but if it is a mortal wound beyond what a human body could overcome on its own, the meatsuit is a goner. We've seen lots of demons wounded, and none of them heal instantaneously (Except Dean) or even quickly that we've seen. Ruby for example, was still bleeding when she "delivered" Azazel after being tortured by him in "Heaven and Hell." Jeffery had a whole slew of injuries after Sam and Dean tried to get information out of the demon in his body and the demon was exorcised in "Repo Man."

I think it depends on how they're injured.  If they're just injured with human weapons, I think they can heal themselves pretty quickly.  At least to the extent of the body looking OK.  If they get what would be a mortal wound, when they leave the body, the host dies.  But, anyway, Crowley was injured by Lucifer. We saw that even Cas couldn't heal Amelia when she was being fed off of by an angel, so there's that.  Ruby was being tortured with the demon knife, so that's a knife that could actually kill her.  Not a run-of-the-mill kitchen knife which she would have shrugged off.  I don't remember what Sam and Dean were using on Jeffrey, but he was in a demon trap until the demon was exorcised, so they're supposed to be "powerless" in there.  Of course, sometimes we see that they are not.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Re-watching now, so random stream of consciousnesses ahead:

• Rick Springfield was much better than for which I initially gave him credit.  His look of glee when the groupie started carving herself up was seriously creepy.
• Backing up for a bit: the tooth made me legit shiver, even the second time around.
• backing up further, I did like that Sam 'stood his ground' and make Dean listen to his 'Hair Rock' in  the car.  Lol!  As a fan of some serious Hair Bands, and beyond, I can totally support that. 
• I really enjoyed the dry/deadpan humor of the Crowley/Cas dynamic.  (as a total non-related aside, but I wanted to share: I realized just tonight that I actually receive the local CW station when my antennae is positioned right.  Saw a commercial with Christopher Walken quoting freaking N'Sync with Justin Timberlake and I cracked up. )  Cas had the same deadpan look as Christopher Walken.  So well, done Misha.  Well done.
• Backing up again: I noticed (I think @DittyDotDot? will be happy about this:) Dean's Caller ID says Cass.  Yep.  Two s'es.  
• Sam's suit looked like it fit very well - for once.  
• Really disgusting and creepy that the PR girl was sitting down right next to where there was blood on the carpet from Rosalie and it didn't seem to bother her at first.  She was pretty cool though.  I liked her.  She knew just how to play Sam and Dean during their fake meet up.   
• I kinda liked when Crowley slammed the Russell the agent against the wall and showed him his power.  
• Holy sheets the guys were incredibly hot in the hotel lobby scene while waiting on Cas to show.  

 

ETA: I wanted to add this last night, but there was way too much wine involved...Anyway, this ep really held up this time through.  I don't even know why I picked it last night.  I wasn't keen on rewatching it either earlier in the season or shortly after the season ended, (possibly due to Lucifer overload.)  But given a little extra time, I thought it was enjoyable - and even the "Hollywood" montage didn't bother me as much.  :)

Edited June 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
ETA: the ETA.

[bettername2come]

"You're kinda famous." *neck snap* That was pretty funny. 

Dean's rant against LA seems disingenuous to his characterization during Hollywood Babylon. Not that I think he doesn't hate botox and traffic, but there's elements he likes. We really should've gotten more of the Castiel/Crowley buddy cop comedy. "What kind of spell is this?" "It's his rider. I've seem worse." Sam and Dean dressed in black leather look like Jared and Jensen in promotional photos. I like that the manager was just going to scream in a public place to get rid of the Winchesters. "What? I help." - double digits seasons Crowley, a summary. "Ah, screw it." *fires gun* is far funnier than it should be. Go, makeup department. Crowley's eye looked seriously screwed up. I don't know how I feel about Lucifer/the writers not having a plan. On the one hand, chaos can be terrifying on the other hand, I want a master evil plan. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I zoned out when they were all sitting around bemoaning that they couldn't get the name of the club out of anyone. These guys hack police accounts but can't hack a Twitter or an email account for the name of a bar? STupid.

[Hanahope]

Ah, sad to see Rick Springfield take an early exit.  He was pretty good in the role.    Sucks for the other band members.  I wonder if Ladyheart's record sales went up when the entire band died on the same day.

I lol at Sam liking hair bands and Dean hating them.  And Sam trying to trick Dean by saying he was listening to some boring history podcast.

And Crowley ruling LA.  Guess he needs a new record producer.

[Wayward Son]

On 3 December 2016 at 8:02 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the question of why would Lucifer heal Vincent’s sister*, for me that has generally been in Lucifer’s personality. That same trait that makes him a whiner when it comes to his daddy issues is why he wants – maybe even needs – his host to like him at least a little bit. He gets pissed off and offended when they don’t. It’s why Lucifer offered originally not to hurt and maybe even protect Dean back in the season 5 finale, because he wanted Sam to be “happy.” It’s why he offered Sam the revenge on the demons, which Lucifer somehow thought Sam would like (and then did anyway when Sam wasn’t really all that enthused.) Of course, if Lucifer healed Vincent’s sister after Vincent was dead, I can only assume lingering feelings he had from Vincent’s memories, and the reasoning is much less sensical and instead more lame.

This was my take on Lucifer healing Vince's sister also. It is a part of his egotistical desire to have his vessel like him and want to remain possessed by him. 

[The Companion]

On 12/2/2016 at 5:00 AM, Pete Martell said:

I thought he was sort of like that in season 5 after he gave up on everything. But Cas has never been given a consistent personality - generally only Dean has one, then Sam on a good day. 

One step closer to having Jasmine Guy (I always thought she would be a great hunter or demon).

I always thought Lucifer was a big whiny baby regardless of who was in the role. I think Pellegrino is a better and more charismatic actor than Rick Springfield and the character was fresh then. I don't really believe they ever should have brought the character back. I would have rather seen Michael if they were going to bring back an archangel.

Agreed. Lucifer doesn't make an interesting bad guy. We just had an ancient being throwing a temper tantrum because God wasn't paying attention. Sigh.

On 12/2/2016 at 10:51 AM, catrox14 said:

So, how can a rock star,  his band mate (who I quite liked) and two other dudes die all on the same day and the rock star's body decays almost instantly, and it NOT raise the eyebrows of the adoring public not to mention law enforcement and the CDC?  Surely someone from Vince's family...like oh I dunno HIS SISTER might want to know what happened especially since Cas and Crowley were actually at her house and can be placed at the venue where Vince dies. I'm going to be really disappointed if this doesn't amount to more. I suppose it's too much to hope for something like Henriksen pursuing Dean for 3 seasons.

I mean this really isn't going smaller unless the show completely ignores that this death would be a pretty big deal to the public.

 

Yeah, this would be huge news.

On 12/3/2016 at 12:26 AM, Dobian said:

Haha yeah, they should have done that scene with them sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5.

I noticed on Dean's Scrabble app that he had the letters to spell Lucifer on the bottom.

I saw that and it made me laugh.

 

Overall, this episode sorta felt like a placeholder. It had a lot of set up, but it wasn't particularly interesting or compelling to me.