S05.E09: It Serves You Right to Suffer

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

When Shinwell comes to Holmes and Watson for help after he's framed for a gang killing, they have three days to find the real murderer before he is arrested and sent back to jail.

Directed by Aidan Quinn

[paigow]

Definitely serves him right to suffer....he has been a dick...see if Sherlock or Joan beats him with a stick after the case is solved...

[roseha]

So the show is pre-empted on the 4th?  I see CBS advertising a different lineup of shows this Sunday. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by roseha

[Eneya]

So... when it will air?

[paigow]

http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?fromTimeInMillis=1481511600000&aid=tvschedule

Episode 9 should air Dec 12... actual start time may vary depending on NFL duration.

[possibilities]

It aired tonight (Sunday, the 11th).

I think it's interesting that they've decided to expand Sherlock's lawbreaking, to include Marcus.

Also, Shinwell is still screwed, because how is he going to get out of SBK? I guess he could leave town, but he's on parole, so that's not so easy, either. And why does he not wear gloves? Sherlock wore them when they were searching the apartment. I'd think the first defense against fingerprints would be gloves?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 12/1/2016 at 10:05 PM, roseha said:

So the show is pre-empted on the 4th?  I see CBS advertising a different lineup of shows this Sunday. 

 

On 12/5/2016 at 8:28 AM, Eneya said:

So... when it will air?

FYI - the airdate is always part of the episode thread title so you can check there if you aren't sure when a specific episode will air.

[Eneya]

This is weird, sometimes I do not see the gray text with the air date. I thought up until now that that is sometimes later updated.
I do apologise for the stupid question then and will figure out why and what makes it non-visible for me. Possibly cookies.

[theatremouse]

On 12/11/2016 at 10:34 PM, possibilities said:

I think it's interesting that they've decided to expand Sherlock's lawbreaking, to include Marcus.

What gave the conclusive impression Marcus helped? I thought the chat with Marcus was just about Sherlock making up his mind whether to do what he did. I didn't think he gave Marcus any information about the real sitch, nor that Marcus helped in gun cleaning escapades. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by theatremouse

[Trey]

I got the impression that Marcus got Sherlock into the evidence room so that he could wipe the gun.  Otherwise there wasn't any point in talking to Marcus about it.

I really enjoyed this episode.  I'm glad Shinwell wasn't back with the gang but was undercover working for the FBI - or, at least, thought he was.

As soon as they mentioned the one gang being robbed, I figured it was Whitlock, using the info gathered by his informants.  I thought Sherlock was a little slow picking up on that.  Of course, he may have picked up on it right away and just never told us.

[iMonrey]

I don't understand the show's investment in Shinwell or why he's a series regular. He's just not that interesting. No Gregson this episode and barely any Marcus. Does Nelsan Ellis know one of the producers or something? He's such a sad sack character, I have no interest in watching him every week. He's the cousin Oliver of Elementary. Thumbs down.

Edited December 12, 2016 by iMonrey

[Loandbehold]

Quote

No Gregson this episode

I believe Aidan Quinn directed this episode. It's possible that he didn't want to be in it for that reason. That doesn't justify the dearth of Marcus.

[ChelseaNH]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't understand the show's investment in Shinwell or why he's a series regular.

There's a thematic connection to the process of recovery in Shinwell's rehabilitation, but so far that doesn't seem to be worth regular status.  Guess we'll have to see how that develops.

[possibilities]

I thought Marcus helped Sherlock get access to the gun. Not sure how else Sherlock would have gotten access to it, but I suppose someone else could have let him in, if they thought he was working the case. It doesn't seem like Sherlock really looks to Marcus for advice or perspective; I figured Sherlock already had made up his mind about what he wanted to do, and talking with Marcus was to get Marcus interested in helping him do it. But honestly, they didn't show us, either way.

[Eneya]

I think he wanted a second opinion. He respects Marcus.

[MissLucas]

I also took the scene with Marcus as Sherlock trying to gauge Shinwell's state of mind and not more. Sherlock would not ask Marcus for anything that could end his career nor would Marcus do it (maybe for Sherlock or Watson but certainly not for someone he hardly knows). I liked the scene between the two - a quiet reflection on what prison can do to people. Shinwell using the time left to him for fixing that old lady's roof was very poignant.

I find Shinwell an interesting character and he certainly fits into the show's leitmotiv of rehabilitation and second chances (which at first seems to apply to Sherlock only but at closer look also includes Watson)

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

There's a thematic connection to the process of recovery in Shinwell's rehabilitation, but so far that doesn't seem to be worth regular status.  Guess we'll have to see how that develops.

I do like that on Elementary "regular" doesn't mean "in every single episode."  Just like in last season Morland wasn't shoe-horned into ever episode, Shinwell will appear when it makes sense or is part of the story and won't when it doesn't.

[theatremouse]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't understand the show's investment in Shinwell or why he's a series regular. He's just not that interesting.

"Regular" just means "we pay you to be available whether we intend to use you or not". It doesn't mean "major character" or "in every episode". It's a contractual thing, and even if his contract were for every episode this season, that doesn't mean he ends up in every episode, only that he gets paid his per-episode amount whether he's in it or not. Had the actor who played Alfredo been a regular he likely would not have needed to be written off because they would've guaranteed themselves his availability for however many potential episodes they wanted him per season. Don't know whether they wrote him off because he got another show (probable) or if they intended to do that story all along, but if it were born of necessity, regularizing someone makes it so your shooting schedule has first priority.

So that they made him a regular just means they wanted to make sure they had the actor for whatever period in which they might need him for whatever they had in mind for this arc.

Edited December 13, 2016 by theatremouse

[rubyred]

I really like Nelsan Ellis so I've been hoping that Shinwell would gel with the rest of the cast and show, and this was the first time I felt like he did that. It was the first time I felt that there was an authentic connection between him and Joan. And it was good to see that Sherlock, while he respects Joan's opinion on many things, was so anti-Shinwell purely IMO as being protective of Joan and yet, once presented with the clusterfuck of Shinwell's situation, Sherlock's formidable brain went into action. I bought that as a believable evolution of their relationship.

I didn't know Ellis has been made a regular; it seems like Alfredo and his talents were/are a better fit for that but I don't know ACD canon so perhaps there's a Baker Street Irregulars character who matches with Shinwell? I would like him to have a little bit better luck and get a new apartment though, because the bathtub in the closet skeeves me out. Reminds me of being in college in NY in the 80s, and visiting a friend who was living in what had been a tenement in the lower East Side. The tub was in the kitchen, and they put a big board over it during the day to use it as a table. I kid you not.

[MaryHedwig]

12 hours ago, rubyred said:

I don't know ACD canon so perhaps there's a Baker Street Irregulars character who matches with Shinwell?

Shinwell is in the ACD canon. Shinwell Johnson appears in "The Adventure of the Illustrious Client", the same story in which Kitty appears. Shinwell is a former criminal is an informant and occasional muscle for Sherlock.

Edited December 13, 2016 by MaryHedwig

[Vermicious Knid]

Yup, bathtubs in the kitchen. I visited friends of friends in an apartment in the Village that had one. I don't think it exists outside NYC. There would be 2-3 immigrant families living together in a one bedroom apartment back in the day. Meandering off topic a bit, but if you read The Alienist it has very good descriptions of the living conditions in the tenements during the late 19th century.

Anyway, Shinwell's story does not captivate me at all. I watched but my attention kept drifting, so much that I missed exactly what he was doing at the body dump site and why he dropped the gun. I wasn't interested enough to roll it back and check. The third co-conspirator is still out there and I expect he will pop up again later in the season.

[may flowers]

While the acting on this show tends to  regularly be excellent, a moment in this episode truly struck me. At the end, after Sherlock turned to walk away, Shinwell breathed deeply and his eyes seemed misty for a moment. As someone who breathes shallowly when upset and doesn't realize I'm doing it until I take that deep breath when the crisis passes, that moment resonated. 

[fauntleroy]

9 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Anyway, Shinwell's story does not captivate me at all. I watched but my attention kept drifting, so much that I missed exactly what he was doing at the body dump site and why he dropped the gun. I wasn't interested enough to roll it back and check.

Yea me neither. Low-energy! I do try to follow along, but kept nodding off. Not sure why they are involved in gang informants and street crime.  I miss Sherlock's autistic or whatever girlfriend, she brightened things up.

Sherlock should keep pigeons on the roof and use them to send messages. That would be fun.

[MaryHedwig]

21 hours ago, may flowers said:

At the end, after Sherlock turned to walk away, Shinwell breathed deeply and his eyes seemed misty for a moment. As someone who breathes shallowly when upset and doesn't realize I'm doing it until I take that deep breath when the crisis passes, that moment resonated. 

I noticed and loved that too. I almost always get a lump in my throat during the very last scene. I am programmed so much for it by now that the lump starts to come when the poignant ending-music begins.

Edited December 14, 2016 by MaryHedwig

[fitzcarraldo]

I appreciate the slow burn with Shinwell. The Kitty arc was ok but I wished they had shown her abilities rather than gone "oooh look Joan and Sherlock think she is great so you should too!" The girlfriend was worse.  I am so glad she's gone. All exposition and nothing earned there. Off stage, even, for big stuff. It makes sense to test if you can trust them or not first. I want to find out with Joan and Sherlock.

[mojoween]

I still don't care about Shinwell, I'm just glad that I figured out I knew Whitlock from Bones.  He played an anti-government guy who accidentally killed a pretend Santa with radio waves.

I want Joan's skull tank top very much.  On another fashion note, I am perplexed why a detective (Debi Mazar) would wear a see-through shirt while working in the field.

[MaryHedwig]

Quote

I want Joan's skull tank top very much.  On another fashion note, I am perplexed why a detective (Debi Mazar) would wear a see-through shirt while working in the field.

...and bell bottom pants. She was my prime "famous so she's guilty" suspect partly because she is so recognizable and partly because her "uniform" was so odd.

[thuganomics85]

So, the guy that "visited" Shinwell back in "To Catch a Predator Predator", was actually Whitlock, an agent that made Shinwell an informent off the books, and was using him to skim off the top of the gang's supplies?  Yikes, not many trustworthy FBI agents on this show!  Not surprised he was behind the killing, but I still wasn't completely sure, because do the "Recognizable faces does it nine out of ten times" method, I was still waiting for Debi Mazar's detective to be the killer for some reason.

Susan Blommaert as the psychiatrist was hilarious, because I only know her as Kaplan from The Blacklist, and the idea of that character sitting down and asking people about their feelings is an awesome concept!

Figured Gregson wouldn't make an appearance since Aidan Quinn was directing.  At least they got Marcus there for a scene.

Knew Shinwell would not get locked up, but surprised that it was Sherlock coving for him.  I'm not wild about the character, but I still love Nelsan Ellis, so I'm hopeful they will get it in gear soon.  After-all, I started out really disliking Kitty at first, but grew to really like her by the end of her arc.

[paigow]

On 12/13/2016 at 0:06 PM, MaryHedwig said:

I noticed and loved that too. I almost always get a lump in my throat during the very last scene. I am programmed so much for it by now that the lump starts to come when the poignant ending-music begins.

Hope the poignant music does not turn you homicidal like Dolores Abernathy....

[Clanstarling]

On 12/11/2016 at 10:34 PM, possibilities said:

And why does he not wear gloves? Sherlock wore them when they were searching the apartment. I'd think the first defense against fingerprints would be gloves?

That drove me crazy, given he was in jeopardy because of his fingerprints.

On 12/12/2016 at 8:30 AM, Trey said:

Otherwise there wasn't any point in talking to Marcus about it.

I thought the point was for Sherlock to decide if Shinwell would regress in prison by using Marcus' brother as a gauge. Given Marcus "in a second" response, then Sherlock decided to help Shinwell (though probably more for Joan than Shinwell).

As for getting into the property room, Sherlock is a master at getting into places he shouldn't be, and even has enough of a presence there to have a valid way to get in. So I'll handwave the actual details.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Clanstarling

[Trey]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I thought the point was for Sherlock to decide if Shinwell would regress in prison by using Marcus' brother as a gauge. Given Marcus "in a second" response, then Sherlock decided to help Shinwell (though probably more for Joan than Shinwell).

You are probably right. He didn't really need Marcus to get him into the evidence room.

[Loandbehold]

But, this wasn't a case being handled by Major Crimes. It was a case in a Bronx precinct where Debi Mazar's detective worked. Is the lab at Major Crimes or is it somewhere else b/c the gun would either have been in the evidence locker at her precinct or at the lab for fingerprint testing. Or, I am just giving this way too much thought. I interpreted Sherlock as trying to get Marcus to assist him, but I can see the other interpretation, and certainly, no matter where the gun was, Sherlock could have snuck in and wiped it down.

[Athena]

31 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

But, this wasn't a case being handled by Major Crimes. It was a case in a Bronx precinct where Debi Mazar's detective worked. Is the lab at Major Crimes or is it somewhere else b/c the gun would either have been in the evidence locker at her precinct or at the lab for fingerprint testing. Or, I am just giving this way too much thought. I interpreted Sherlock as trying to get Marcus to assist him, but I can see the other interpretation, and certainly, no matter where the gun was, Sherlock could have snuck in and wiped it down.

I  think the two precincts use the same lab or labs. Maybe it was at Major crimes. It was mentioned that Gregson sped up the lab results probably because Major Crimes has priority for these things and he is a chief.

I also did not think at all Marcus helped in getting to the evidence room/lab. I think Marcus was there was a sounding board for Sherlock which is not something Sherlock does with many people. Sherlock would never involve Marcus or any of his true friends when trying to do something like that. It would be very OOC for this Sherlock.

[jhlipton]

On 12/13/2016 at 1:28 AM, Vermicious Knid said:

I missed exactly what he was doing at the body dump site and why he dropped the gun.

Shinwell was there with another member of the SBK to try to move the body from next to the jewelry shop.
Whitlock killed Morales there to force SBK to move their drop-site. SBK didn't hear about the shooting until just before the police came, long enough for Shinwell to drop his gun, his necklace, his shoes, his pants...