S07.E10: Ride or Die

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Fiona, facing mounting issues, contemplates Margo's offer to buy the laundromat. Meanwhile, Ian tries to deal with the fact that Mickey might be out of prison and Kev and V take matters into their own hands after Svetlana's betrayal.

Promo:

 

Clips:

 

[Dee]

Don't give a remote shit about any combination of Ian/Trevor/Mickey. All of them need to disappear. Forever.

Don't give a shit about Frank & Monica.

Don't care about Lip's alcoholism. The Helene cameo was annoying.

Don't care about Sierra, but liked that for once, one of Lip's women refused to clean up his mess.

Don't care about Etta. June Squibb is a delight though.

Debbie was almost likeable this episode. Almost.

Neil is useless.

Liam learning CPT from Frank is hilarious. Frank is the worst.

Kev reasserting himself is hella sexist but Steve Howey remains wonderful.

Glad Vee & Fiona are speaking again because I love Shanola & Emmy's chemistry together. Not happy that the writers predictably completely ignored the reasons they stopped speaking in the first place just so they could quickly resolve that plot thread.

Trying to make Svetlana & her motives somewhat noble is way too late.

Great to see Oscar Nunez back. Rick is the best.

[SimoneS]

Oh Ian. I expect that he will end up in prison or on the run as Cameron was probably filming Gotham. Poor Trevor or maybe lucky Trevor.

I liked Debbie defending Neil. It feels like she is getting her life together so no doubt it will all fall apart again.

[sazzat]

Agree on some and disagree on others. I was super annoyed that they gave so little time to Vee and Fiona making up, and that they took equal blame for their fight. Come on, that was on Fiona.

Frank and Monica slurring it up around town just makes me physically avert my head from the screen. Pointless.

June Squibb was particularly delightful this episode, wasn't she? The better to make Fiona look bad by selling out. Why do we get the things like Fiona stealing money from the diner and making use of Etta's credit cards if they aren't going to matter at all?

Have a huge soft spot for Mickey but they started with the retcon last season and from Fiona's reaction, Mickey is now officially bad/crazy ex responsible for Ian's breakdown. Fiona witnessed Mickey firsthand with Ian in the hospital, urging him to stay on medication, trying to keep him healthy. It would be one thing for her to point out that it's a bad idea to run off to Mexico with a fugitive, because it is, but it's another to have her blame Mickey for Ian's past behavior.  There are plenty of reasons why he's not the best choice for Ian, but that's not one of them.

Could have done without Helene, too. The meaningful drunken moping was all very serious and well-acted, but one episode is enough. Have Lip be a functional alcoholic or have him get back into treatment, but you've established that he's bottomed out for now.

I am very very tired of Svetlana's infinite knowledge of criminal practices. The whole throuple plot just required too much willful stupidity from Vee and even from Kev - and before this I would've doubted he was too stupid for much.  I was also never in a million years convinced that Vee was in love with her - not because of Shanola Hampton, who was heartbreaking on the steps, but because too much of their relationship was written as either broad comedy or "ooh, hot chicks fooling around."

[stagmania]

11 minutes ago, sazzat said:

Have a huge soft spot for Mickey but they started with the retcon last season and from Fiona's reaction, Mickey is now officially bad/crazy ex responsible for Ian's breakdown. Fiona witnessed Mickey firsthand with Ian in the hospital, urging him to stay on medication, trying to keep him healthy. It would be one thing for her to point out that it's a bad idea to run off to Mexico with a fugitive, because it is, but it's another to have her blame Mickey for Ian's past behavior.  There are plenty of reasons why he's not the best choice for Ian, but that's not one of them.

It's utterly baffling to me the way the writers have decided to retcon one of the best parts of their own canon. Ian can move on from Mickey, and they can have an interesting and touching final goodbye arc, without having to turn Mickey into something he wasn't. I don't think I'll ever understand the choices they've made about how to write Mickey off and end this relationship.

As such, their scenes tonight felt pretty empty to me. They were well-acted, but I could feel the writers' manipulation in every line and the dissonance between Ian in this episode and Ian's attitude about Mickey for the last two seasons was enormous.

[WaltersHair]

I knew Ian would go with Mickey because no one in that family is comfortable with or knows anything about a normal life. They LIVE in and for chaos, which is entirely Frank and Monica's fault. BUT, he is an adult as they all are except Debbie and Liam (although IL used to have an emancipated minor law that said a girl was emancipated until the birth of the child and then they go back to being minors).

Fiona is hella stupid if she doesn't take the money. She can be all huggee feely Southsider in a new location.

Everything else this season was like watching paint dry.

[preeya]

The Frank/Monica robbing spree was ultra-stupid and totally unnecessary.

I guess when the police capture Mickey, Ian will be arrested as an accomplice.

Fiona should definitely take the money and run.

Lip is a total mess.

[Tikichick]

Lip's story is painfully tragic and hard to watch.

I could have understood if they made it clear that Fiona's attitude about the potential of Ian and Mickey together was about the fact that Mickey's circumstances require him to either be incarcerated or on the run and Ian cannot remain healthy on the run.

The Frank and Monica caper?  Enough.  Total waste of screentime. 

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

Have a huge soft spot for Mickey but they started with the retcon last season and from Fiona's reaction, Mickey is now officially bad/crazy ex responsible for Ian's breakdown. Fiona witnessed Mickey firsthand with Ian in the hospital, urging him to stay on medication, trying to keep him healthy. It would be one thing for her to point out that it's a bad idea to run off to Mexico with a fugitive, because it is, but it's another to have her blame Mickey for Ian's past behavior.  There are plenty of reasons why he's not the best choice for Ian, but that's not one of them.

Quote

It's utterly baffling to me the way the writers have decided to retcon one of the best parts of their own canon. Ian can move on from Mickey, and they can have an interesting and touching final goodbye arc, without having to turn Mickey into something he wasn't. I don't think I'll ever understand the choices they've made about how to write Mickey off and end this relationship.

I stopped watching the show regularly about two and a half seasons ago but still checked out the threads off and on. This was one of the things that annoyed me the most and convinced me that I definitely made the right choice in quitting the show. It also made me wonder if the rumors that Noel Fisher burned some bridges with the producers/writers was true because what better way to screw an actor over who has pissed off the showrunners, but to write out his character and then retcon the character's story to make him the villain. 

I didn't mind Ian's realization that what he and Mickey had was unhealthy and would have never worked out in the long run. It was the sudden bullshit rewrite that somehow every bad thing he knew about love and relationships was because of Mickey and it was being with Mickey that screwed him up. Never mind that long before Ian ever looked twice at Mickey he was screwing a very married Kash, who was also older than him and his boss. Oh and he was like 14 when this was happening and far as I know, he still never considers that statutory rape or illegal and just treats it like someone he hooked up with in his past. 

Then because once was so great, he went on and banged Steve's dad, this one old enough to be his grandfather and kept doing so even after finding out the guy was Steve's dad. And this while he was supposedly already in love with Mickey. Then there was the bipolor disorder which suddenly didn't seem as important because again, apparently that wasn't what made him a nutjob, no it was all Mickey's fault and Mickey's awful influence. 

Never mind that he has two losers for parents, one of whom is bipolar herself, that he's had unhealthy influences regarding relationships and love his whole life, that again he's been having inappropriate sex with adults since he was a minor. No none of that stuff mattered - it was Mickey who destroyed Ian. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Gulftastic]

Fiona did take the money, right? That's what she told Vee, I think. 

With her making a tidy 70 grand profit, Lip going back to AA and Debbie seemingly sorting her life out, I knew Ian would run off with Micky. We couldn't have all the Gallaghers ending on a positive note.

And, like many above, I could not care less about Frank and Monica's antics.

[LuciaMia]

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Frank and Monica slurring it up around town just makes me physically avert my head from the screen. Pointless.

Definitely.  The main reason I can't stand Monica is the way the actress plays her, like some hyperactive 8 year old. Constantly giggling and bouncing around. "Hey, lets all rob a bank! Cool!"

Grateful at least that the show didn't leave most cliff-hangers till next week. Fiona took the deal. She might feel guilty about putting Etta in assisted living, but at least she won't be eating cat food.  

Debbie's taking more and more charge. Loved how she defended Neil. Also loved Frank's stumbling indignation at Debbie throwing them out, after paying her the money.

It was a little…sad…that the business lady kept taking Fiona's real reservations about selling as just another bargaining strategy.

[Dee]

I'm surprised at the show quietly making Debbie a math savant.

Given all the babysitting and house maintaining she did growing up, I thought for sure her strength would be in something more people related.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dee

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Never mind that he has two losers for parents, one of which is bipolar herself, that he's had unhealthy influences regarding relationships and love his whole life, that again he's been having inappropriate sex with adults since he was a minor. No none of that stuff mattered - it was Mickey who destroyed Ian.

I can only give your whole post one Like, but I am giving you more in my head. I also gave up on this show a few seasons ago, but I do check in on threads and recaps to see whats been going on, and...I dont feel like I`m missing much lately. This show basically lost me the episode where Ian was laughing about Mickey being raped to his new boyfriend. It was just an awful way to treat a long time character that many audiences members had gotten emotionally involved with. I dont know why they have decided to retcon everything about Mickey and Ian and their relationship. I decided to check this episode out, and while it was nice seeing Noel again, I just cannot deal with how this show has just decided that Mickey was always such an awful person who ruined Ian's life and was responsible for his breakdown. And from Fiona? I thought they were getting along when Ian and Mickey were together? Mickey was around their family a lot, and, honestly, he isn't much worse than any of them, if a bit more prone to violence. She had to know how much Mickey loved him, and how hard he worked to be there for him. Because, while Mickey certainly wasn't a perfect guy, and their relationship was certainly dysfunctional, Ian's breakdown had NOTHING to do with him! When they were together, he tried to keep him on his meds, forgave him for stealing his baby and cheating on him, visited him in the hospital, and was generally a very supportive (if unconventional) boyfriend. And Ian ended up dumping him to his face because he wanted him to take his meds, and then laughed while Sammy chased him off with a gun. After he beat the crap out of him when he was mad that Mickey wasn't being enough of an asshole. Seriously. If anything, I question why Mickey wants Ian back so much! If the show didn't want Ian and Mickey to end up living happily ever after, thats fine. I really like Mickey and their relationship, so I would be disappointed, but it would be alright. But trying to blame everything on Mickey, and act like he was some kind of abusive boyfriend and bad influence? I call bullshit. 

This why this show has gone to crap for me. They just dont care about the characters like they used to, and none of the writers seem to actually remember any character development anyone had in the first (good) seasons. 

[Dee]

Mickey finally being treated without kid gloves, somewhat, by the writers is refreshing; which helps to balance the truly awful fan-service writing of their current situation.

Being an attentive boyfriend, for a third of a season, hardly necessitates the need for "redemption" for a character who's been shitty to Ian since the very beginning and a trash ass individual in general, no matter how good an actor Noel Fisher is.

And Fiona has never been all that enthused about I/M's relationship. Of Ian's siblings, the two who were most supportive were Lip and Debbie, both of whom are otherwise occupied at the moment.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dee

[WhosThatGirl]

It's been almost forever since I watched this show but I came back for this episode.

Yeah I'm one of a few leftover who still don't understand why the show chose to ruin the Mickey and Ian relationship and not only that but then place all the blame on Mickey for Ian's breakdown and illness. I just don't understand that. So sadly like others last nights scenes did nothing for me. I'm pretty sure next week it'll all be ruined anyway so.. yeah.

ive kept up with info for the show even though I haven't watched so I knew what was happening but the whole show just feels empty to me now. I don't care about any of these people like I use to.

[sazzat]

The Ian/Mickey relationship never exactly had long term success written all over it. Even when they started, Ian was an ambitious kid with a desire to get out of the South Side via his ROTC involvement and Mickey wasn't going anywhere - how would that have worked out if Ian had gone on to college or been able to enlist normally? Ian has been portrayed as an earnest character who likes sex and craves love but doesn't know what to do when he gets it. When he went from pursuer to pursued in that relationship, he never seemed to know how he felt about having the upper hand. Between the wreck of Ian's future plans, his refusal to follow treatment for bipolar, and the uncomfortable switch to being the person that someone else took care of, and then Mickey slowly losing his income sources and having no real possible direction besides criminality, this show would have had a lot of development to handle to offer a happy ending. Fanfic writers have that kind of time, but this show just doesn't. It's hard to imagine how they would overcome those obstacles within the confines of Shameless. So I wasn't expecting Ian and Mickey 4-EVA from a teenage first love. But that doesn't mean I appreciate the writers throwing the nuances of their past out the window. I seriously don't get the point of this return - is the temporary ratings bump worth it? Nobody needed this kind of closure. The JimmySteve return was similar - what kind of closure was needed? He had already broken up with Fiona when the drug lords caught up with him - and I didn't get the motivation with that, either. Are they that desperate to get some press?

[whiporee]

I would have liked to see Lip actually talk to Helene. I think her rejection/abandonment of him was the root of his life going to shit, and I would have liked him to at least ask her why. She could have told him the things he really, really needs to hear. I'm hoping she said enough to send him into understanding the freefall he's in, but I like the character enough to want to see him get at least a degree of closure. Aside from Karen, that was the most importanbt relationship he'd ever had, and I would have liked to have seen it wrapped up better. 

Ian realized he'll never be a top priority to Trevor. Trevor's dealing with a lot of shit on his own, and then is trying to help others. Not an unadmirable trait, but I think Ian realized that Trevor's top focus is always going to be Trevor, and then after Trevor the trans community. I think that motivated him more than anything else -- someone was willing to risk death and escape imprisonment to be with him, as opposed to someone who couldn't wait a second to listen to him talk about getting kidnapped and confronted with his ex. Not saying Trevor's bad or anything of the sort, but like all Gallaghers, he chose someone who wanted him enough to choose chaos. 

[Dee]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

I would have liked to see Lip actually talk to Helene. I think her rejection/abandonment of him was the root of his life going to shit, and I would have liked him to at least ask her why. She could have told him the things he really, really needs to hear. I'm hoping she said enough to send him into understanding the freefall he's in, but I like the character enough to want to see him get at least a degree of closure. Aside from Karen, that was the most importanbt relationship he'd ever had, and I would have liked to have seen it wrapped up better.

As I predicted the writers totally whiffed on resolving Lip's ever present Mommy issues.

What was disheartening was they did so in an episode that featured his Bio-mom (Monica), his Oedipal Mom (Helene), his Replacement Mom (Fiona) and his Pseudo Mom (Sierra). 

I could see him being rattled by Monica's ingratiating charisma, Fiona's severe dressing down and Sierra's inconsistent hovering being enough to drive him to bottoming out at Helene's, and eventually, seeking an AA meeting of his own volition. That would be a pretty compelling story to tell, with the bonus of Lip, finally, taking the initiative to address his own issues.

But what we got was Lip stumbling around for the better part of an hour treating all the women in his life as annoying pests, a useless Helene cameo and Lip arbitrarily deciding to attend AA, despite the fact that he's been denying his own addiction and thoroughly ridiculing the benefits of recovery ever since he left rehab.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dee

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, sazzat said:

So I wasn't expecting Ian and Mickey 4-EVA from a teenage first love.

And I don't think anyone was or well I for sure didn't. I actually did foresee a future where Mickey ended up in jail for the rest of his life, possibly for killing somebody and Ian moving on. It was the way the writers basically shit on everything they spent four/five seasons building that was the problem. As the post above said, Ian mocking at Mickey's being raped - really? That was possibly one of the most disturbing and heartbreaking moments on the show ever. One that the writer, with Cameron and Noel talked to Buzzfeed about when they did a whole feature on the Ian/Mickey relationship.

Again, it's why I had to wonder if the actor just really pissed off the writers because there were many ways to end Ian and Mickey without the writers doing what they did last season. And I hated that because of this, a bunch of people decided that the Ian/Mickey shippers who were pissed and hated Ian and the new guy he was dating did so because they were racist and the guy was black.

When it was like, "no, it didn't matter who they paired Ian with, these shippers were going to be bitter and pissed because they were watching the writers basically just crap all over a relationship they spent five seasons building and let the audience become invested in." So while I'm sure Ian and Mickey will end up apart at the end of the season, I'm hoping the point of Noel's return was to give the relationship some proper closure and not this bullshit rewrite of how Mickey destroyed Ian's life and was responsible for everything bad in it. 

[WhosThatGirl]

9 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

And I don't think anyone was or well I for sure didn't. I actually did foresee a future where Mickey ended up in jail for the rest of his life, possibly for killing somebody and Ian moving on. It was the way the writers basically shit on everything they spent four/five seasons building that was the problem. As the post above said, Ian mocking at Mickey's being raped - really? That was possibly one of the most disturbing and heartbreaking moments on the show ever. One that the writer, with Cameron and Noel talked to Buzzfeed about when they did a whole feature on the Ian/Mickey relationship.

Again, it's why I had to wonder if the actor just really pissed off the writers because there were many ways to end Ian and Mickey without the writers doing what they did last season. And I hated that because of this, a bunch of people decided that the Ian/Mickey shippers who were pissed and hated Ian and the new guy he was dating did so because they were racist and the guy was black.

When it was like, "no, it didn't matter who they paired Ian with, these shippers were going to be bitter and pissed because they were watching the writers basically just crap all over a relationship they spent five seasons building and let the audience become invested in." So while I'm sure Ian and Mickey will end up apart at the end of the season, I'm hoping the point of Noel's return was to give the relationship some proper closure and not this bullshit rewrite of how Mickey destroyed Ian's life and was responsible for everything bad in it. 

This 100%. I wish I could like it more than once. I've tried many times to explain why I disliked Ian and Caleb and why it was the writers who did it. Why they decided to make Mickey an awful character. That was the writing. They gaslighted all of Ian and Mickeys relationship because they couldn't think of a better way to end it. They didn't put much, if any, thought into it or what they were saying. The joke about his wedding to his rapist was more than disturbing, it was also the catalyst for when I checked out emotionally of the show. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by WhosThatGirl

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, sazzat said:

Are they that desperate to get some press?

I think this was the primary motivator, yeah. They've gotten very little critical/media attention since season 5. Plus they really haven't known what to do with Ian since Mickey left. Regardless of how I feel about the story they're telling, I can't deny that Ian is much more compelling when he's sharing a screen with Mickey.

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

Ian realized he'll never be a top priority to Trevor. Trevor's dealing with a lot of shit on his own, and then is trying to help others. Not an unadmirable trait, but I think Ian realized that Trevor's top focus is always going to be Trevor, and then after Trevor the trans community. I think that motivated him more than anything else -- someone was willing to risk death and escape imprisonment to be with him, as opposed to someone who couldn't wait a second to listen to him talk about getting kidnapped and confronted with his ex. Not saying Trevor's bad or anything of the sort, but like all Gallaghers, he chose someone who wanted him enough to choose chaos. 

This is an interesting idea, but I saw little evidence of it in this episode. Trevor became an afterthought pretty quickly once Mickey showed up; I don't think Ian's choices were motivated by his feelings about what Trevor was doing.

[tennisgurl]

Its ridiculous that the writers thought the fans would just forget about five years of development for Ian and Mickey, and just keep saying "You fans never REALLY liked that character or thats relationship! You only think you did!". Well, I refuse to be brainwashed by their retcons! There are four lights damn it! THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!

[WhosThatGirl]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Its ridiculous that the writers thought the fans would just forget about five years of development for Ian and Mickey, and just keep saying "You fans never REALLY liked that character or thats relationship! You only think you did!". Well, I refuse to be brainwashed by their retcons! There are four lights damn it! THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!

Right? And I wanted to like last nights episode. I really did. But it felt empty because of everything they've done to this relationship and also because I know they're probably going to ruin it at the end of the season so why should I put stock into it? Also I might not even watch. This was my first episode of this season since episode 3. And aside from the Ian and Mickey stuff.. the rest of the show isn't what I use to love anymore either. I find I dislike these characters a lot and I use to really enjoy them and their stories and now I don't.

[whiporee]

8 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is an interesting idea, but I saw little evidence of it in this episode. Trevor became an afterthought pretty quickly once Mickey showed up; I don't think Ian's choices were motivated by his feelings about what Trevor was doing.

Ian went straight to Trevor after work (or after he got released), brought him lunch and told him that he'd had crazy shit happening. Trevor took a phone call and then took off to rescue someone. That's where my idea is coming from -- knowing Mickey's escaped, knowing Ian's dealing with shit -- Trevor blew him off to help a trans kid in trouble. Noble, admirable, but clearly putting Ian near the bottom of the pecking order as far as importance in his life. 

Not that Trevor's wrong or bad or anything for doing so, but at least to me that's what happened. 

[stagmania]

2 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Ian went straight to Trevor after work (or after he got released), brought him lunch and told him that he'd had crazy shit happening. Trevor took a phone call and then took off to rescue someone. That's where my idea is coming from -- knowing Mickey's escaped, knowing Ian's dealing with shit -- Trevor blew him off to help a trans kid in trouble. Noble, admirable, but clearly putting Ian near the bottom of the pecking order as far as importance in his life. 

Not that Trevor's wrong or bad or anything for doing so, but at least to me that's what happened. 

I think that probably allowed Ian to do what he wanted without as much guilt. But his actions with Mickey seemed motivated by feelings for Mickey, not a reaction to Trevor. He cheated on Trevor with very little hesitation and then just took off with Mickey without a word, so it didn't come across to me like Trevor was top of mind. 

[whiporee]

Didn't he say no to Mickey the first time, though? Before he went to Trevor? I thought that was the timeline. 

[truthaboutluv]

The A.V. Club reviewer feels the same about the retcon of Mickey and Ian's relationship. 

Quote

What’s confounding to me, though, is the show’s attempt to argue that Mickey is Ian’s JimmySteve, and that his decision to leave with him is a symptom of this conflict reactivating Ian’s bipolar disorder. “Ride Or Die” isn’t content to argue Trevor and Mickey are different visions of Ian’s future; they aren’t even content with the fact that living with Mickey would mean living on the run, likely losing all contact with your family. Instead, the episode goes out of its way—particularly in the conversation with Fiona—to reposition Mickey as emblematic of Ian’s past struggles, as though in some way Mickey was the one who kept Ian out of balance. And while no one can reasonably claim that Mickey was a perfect boyfriend to Ian, it seems wildly disingenuous to claim that he was the root of Ian’s problems given how supportive he was when Ian starting struggling in season five. He may have been a criminal, and you could make an argument that Ian would be better off without him, but the notion that Mickey was the thing holding Ian back instead of the thing holding Ian together toward the end of their relationship is incredibly tough to swallow.

[dezi]

Fiona did not say any of the things about Mickey that she is being accused of. She did not once blame him for any of Ian’s past or current issues. She merely pointed out that, due to his fugitive status, Mickey was no good for Ian’s future. Fiona is not a Mickey/Gallavich fangirl. She is Ian’s sister. Of course she is going to try to dissuade him from getting back together with his fugitive ex. I really can’t see what else she would reasonably be expected to say.

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

Didn't he say no to Mickey the first time, though? Before he went to Trevor? I thought that was the timeline. 

Under the bleachers? He leaned in as if he was going to kiss Mickey, but they weren't alone. Mickey asked him to come meet him at the docks later, which he did, at which point they pretty much got straight to it, with a few feeble protests from Ian in between kissing. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by stagmania

[WhosThatGirl]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

The A.V. Club reviewer feels the same about the retcon of Mickey and Ian's relationship. 

That review is the truth. It doesn't make sense and it won't make sense to why the writers did this and there does seem to be as others have stated a personal behind the scenes reason for why they decided to go this way, for me (and others here I'm sure) it's been an issue since season six. It's why I actually walked away from this show with no intentions of coming back even though I knew this episode was coming. I wasn't going to watch but I did and I kind of wish I hadn't. I don't know if I'll watch next week or the following week. I think I might really be finished with the show.

And aside from the Mickey and Ian stuff which I know I talk endlessly about because it was a big reason why I watched and enjoyed the show but it really wasn't my only reason back in the day. While watching last night as I said earlier I found it wasn't really fun or enjoyable, I didn't find the humor funny, I didn't care what happened with the characters, the stories aren't entertaining to me anymore. 

[abstractstuff]

I will stick with this show until the end. My problem is that I never was too interested in Fiona, Lip, or Debbie. Frank has always been entertaining to watch. I really enjoyed Ian and Mickey's storylines because, entertainment. Kev and Vee and then Svet I also really enjoy because, entertainment. Sheila was a blast, even enjoyed Jody paired with her. Chloe Webb as Monica is such a good mess. And I would liked to have seen more of Louise Fletcher as Frank's mom. This show is just fun, but, it is starting to lose that spark. I have a strong feeling at least 3 of my favorite characters are going to be gone for good after this season. Fiona can just be gone. Emmy is a great actress, but, I never warmed to her character. She's very cute with Etta though. 

[Dee]

Louise Fletcher was so amazing.

I'm still surprised Shameless never had her reprise Peggy in some form.

[Christina]

I quit expecting to be entertained by this show a few years ago, and that's why when it hits the right note, I enjoy it so much. I enjoyed Frank and Monica more than I've enjoyed Debbie all season. That character is every bit as trashy and her parents, and her taking over the life of a man with a brain injury, including forcing his sister out of the apartment she was sharing with him, just isn't entertaining and better end in a payoff. I like him more than her and hope that there is a scene of him telling her what a bitchy woman she has become.

Frank and Monica are eye-rollingly irritating most of the time, but I would still rather watch them think up a scam than watch Debbie boss people around. I must give another shout out to the make-up department for Frank's scars. They looked so real and it was another little thing that I probably wouldn't have noticed if they didn't do it, but the fact they did is like receiving a little present that says we know you, the viewer, knows what happened in the past. The writers don't bother most of the time.

[Lemons]

What does retcon mean?  Also, what is a shipper?

[STFUFrank]

1 hour ago, Lemons said:

What does retcon mean?  Also, what is a shipper?

Basically retcon in this case is the writers of the show attempt to change established history of Mickey and Ian by suggesting that Mickey was behind Ian's downfall (ignoring everything Mickey did to help Ian when his bipolar symptoms started to show). 

 

A shipper is a fan (more like a hardcore fan) of two characters. For example Mickey and Ian. Their ship name is Gallavich and the fans of Gallavich are the shippers. Almost every show has a big ship and shippers. 

[Gulftastic]

And just to add to the above 'ship' comes from the word 'relationship'

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, Lemons said:

What does retcon mean?  Also, what is a shipper?

I'll also add that retcon stands for retroactive continuity. As TotalHellion mentioned, it means changing the established history of the show. Shameless has done this before, as have most shows, but usually it's about small things like character backstory. For example, in season 1 the Milkovich mother is referenced as if she's alive, and then in season 2 they retconned the backstory to say she'd been dead a long time. It's much more jarring when they try to pull a major retcon with character relationships like they're doing with Ian and Mickey here. We saw their relationship unfold over five years, so having the characters within the show frame it as something it wasn't is more akin to gaslighting, which is why Ian and Mickey shippers pretty much went apoplectic when they started doing it.

[kathe5133]

I get that Mickey an Ian's love story was engaging, but I don't think the writers are saying that Mickey was the cause of Ian's bipolar problems.  Ian needs to stay on his meds to function.  Prescription meds.  How does he get his prescription filled in Mexico?  Mickey is on the run, an escaped prisoner.  It can be the greatest love of all, but how is going on the run with your prison escapee lover conducive to staying on medication to keep you sane?  I don't care how great the love, how great the sex, Mickey is just bad news.   Sometimes the head has to overrule the heart.  That was my take of Fiona's message to Ian.  And, on an unrelated note.  What was so god awful wonderful about Jimmy/Steve?  When he was flush with cash from his car stealing ring, yeah, he was a "rock".  But, he stupidly got mixed up with a drug kingpin, married the man's daughter, and all the other untold fuckery he was involved with.  Fiona did dodge a bullet with that one!

All this being said......  the actor playing Ian is on another show so they had to write him out.  That's why Ian went to Mexico.  

[LisaS848]

I don't know why everyone hates on Fiona so much.  I really enjoy her character.  Some of her decisions in earlier seasons were awful and heartbreaking, but I always rooted for her to make good decisions.  And now I think she is.  And I think she's encouraging her family to do so.  So what if it comes across as being a bitch.  This family needs that!  They're a mess.  Sweet sensitive loving care is not gonna work.  lol  And as far as her and Vee not talking about their problems more.... sometimes friendship is just like that.  I know my bestie and I will fight.  And we won't talk about it.  We'll just need each other.  And our need to support each other and be there for each other will overcome whatever dumb shit we were fighting about.  That being said it's never been anything unforgiving and neither was Vee and Fiona's fight.  And they addressed it in their own way.  When it comes to a friendship like that does it really matter who was the more selfish person?  Not really.  And I didn't get that she blamed Mickey for Ian's problems.  I didn't get that at all.  I think she was just like... you have your shit together.  (And he does, he's managing his bipolar, he has a good job)  How the hell are you gonna keep your shit together if you go on the lamb with Mickey.  That was what I got from Fiona's conversation with Ian.  Not that Mickey is the root of Ian's problems, just that Ian can't maintain the progress he's made if he's with Mickey because of Mickey's fugitive status.

Debs is bossy, but rightfully so.  Stepping up and taking care of Neil.  Yes, it's a page from her dad's book, but when she stood up for him to Frank and Monica I was thrilled.  While not perfect, she wants what's best for Franny and is standing up to make that happen.

Ian and Mickey felt empty to me.  I LOVE LOVE LOVE THEM!  I am Team Gallavich all the way.  But they just felt empty to me.  But there was a moment in a scene where I felt as though Mickey was shown as more feminine and I really hated that.  Mickey has a tough guy.  I like that about him.  Even though he's sensitive when it comes to Ian, he's a rough guy.   And there were some moments that I just didn't enjoy.  There was some redemption at the end when Mickey seemed  like his old self for a moment when he was like is this good bye or what (paraphrasing).  Because it was like I love you, but I gotta do what I gotta do.  And that's Mickey the tough guy <3 

Oh Lip.....tragic story of addiction.  Just like in life, we're not gonna get closure with everything in our tv shows.  That's just how shit happens. (I'm referring to someone's comment about closure with Lip and Helene.)  It provided enough closure for me.  I saw that she still cared, but she was not going to be drug into his chaotic world.  Lip has an addictive and obsessive personality.  I have a loved one in my life like Lip, he becomes obsessed with women.  And addiction will be his demise.  It's a vicious cycle that does not end.  Lip's story is heartbreaking. 

Frank and Monica's antics contributed nothing to this story.  We love to hate them. But at least they usually contribute to the story line... nope..... (except maybe to give Debs the opportunity to stand up for Neil, but we didn't need at that ridiculousness.)

None of these character's are good people and beyond reproach.  They're all fucked up assholes.  And I think it's important to remember that when we talk about their decisions.  They're "Shameless."  They wouldn't do what normal rational functional people do. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, kathe5133 said:

I get that Mickey an Ian's love story was engaging, but I don't think the writers are saying that Mickey was the cause of Ian's bipolar problems.  Ian needs to stay on his meds to function.  Prescription meds.  How does he get his prescription filled in Mexico?  Mickey is on the run, an escaped prisoner.  It can be the greatest love of all, but how is going on the run with your prison escapee lover conducive to staying on medication to keep you sane?  I don't care how great the love, how great the sex, Mickey is just bad news.   Sometimes the head has to overrule the heart.  That was my take of Fiona's message to Ian.  And, on an unrelated note.  What was so god awful wonderful about Jimmy/Steve?  When he was flush with cash from his car stealing ring, yeah, he was a "rock".  But, he stupidly got mixed up with a drug kingpin, married the man's daughter, and all the other untold fuckery he was involved with.  Fiona did dodge a bullet with that one!

All this being said......  the actor playing Ian is on another show so they had to write him out.  That's why Ian went to Mexico.  

What bothered me is not that Fiona didn't think Ian should go with Mickey-of course he shouldn't choose a life on the run; that's just good sense. But she definitely framed it as Ian was doing much better without him and said that Mickey would "set a match" to his life, as if Mickey himself isn't concerned with Ian's well-being. In fact, Ian's well-being was Mickey's primary concern in their relationship, and he did more to help him than Ian's own family did. And if you watch their scenes and listen to Mickey's dialogue, he seemed to have no expectation that Ian would come with him, and was mostly there to say a proper goodbye. I think Ian jumping in the car with him at the end surprised him as much as anyone.

Cameron Monaghan has been on Gotham for several years. It's a small part and he does it concurrently with Shameless. I don't believe he's being written out or that Ian's actually going to Mexico.

Edited December 6, 2016 by stagmania

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, kathe5133 said:

 

I get that Mickey an Ian's love story was engaging, but I don't think the writers are saying that Mickey was the cause of Ian's bipolar problems.  Ian needs to stay on his meds to function.  Prescription meds.  How does he get his prescription filled in Mexico

The issues many are discussing here is not about Ian running off with Mickey. Of course that's a stupid decision and as I noted in another post, I don't know about anyone else but I never thought Ian and Mickey, no matter how compelling and no matter how much they loved each other, was destined for happily ever after. We all know Mickey was heading to a life of incarceration or being killed.

The issue many had was the way the relationship was referenced last season and the way it seemed like the writers were suddenly acting like every bad and wrong thing in Ian life had been because of his relationship with Mickey. Especially when he started dating Caleb. It wasn't that the relationship ended because we all knew that would inevitably happen. It was the pissing on five seasons of what the writers themselves had built up that pissed off fans of the pairing.

As for this latest storyline. I for one absolutely expect Ian to return home or hell Mickey realize he can't be on the run with him considering his condition and dumps him off somewhere or Mickey gets killed. He is on the run from the police after all. As I said, my only hope is that the purpose of Mickey's return was so the writers could at least let the relationship end decently. And fyi, I'm sure Mickey would be able to find someone in Mexico illegally selling the drugs that Ian needs. Plenty of people get prescription drugs without having a prescription - it's one reason prescription drug addiction is such a major problem.

1 hour ago, kathe5133 said:

All this being said......  the actor playing Ian is on another show so they had to write him out.  That's why Ian went to Mexico.  

I assume you're talking about Gotham. While I haven't paid as much attention to media surrounding either show, I haven't gotten the impression that Cameron was leaving Shameless. So far he's been able to do both shows just fine and I think that's largely because Shameless is a cable show with only 13 episodes, which airs once a year and as the poster above noted, his part in Gotham, while significant, isn't huge. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[kathe5133]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

as if Mickey himself isn't concerned with Ian's well-being. In fact, Ian's well-being was Mickey's primary concern in their relationship, and he did more to help him than Ian's own family did. And if you watch their scenes and listen to Mickey's dialogue, he seemed to have no expectation that Ian would come with him, and was mostly there to say a proper goodbye. I think Ian jumping in the car with him at the end surprised him as much as anyone.

If Mickey was truly concerned about Ian's well being, he never would have shown up in the neighborhood in the first place.  Mickey is not trying to ruin Ian's life, but Mickey wants what Mickey wants.  That's how he was raised.  You want it? You take it.  Even if you have to hit someone over the head with a bat to "take it".  There is no realization that actions have consequences.  Someone messes with someone you love?  Shoot at them.  What?  You get put in jail for that?  Well, leave jail.  No one will look for you, right?  Go to Mexico.  How is he going to support himself?  Well, you can always hit someone overnight the head with a bat to get pocket money.  He's not smart and he's not good for Ian, or for anyone for that matter.  It never occurs to him to get a job, earn money, provide Ian with a stable environment so he can stay on his meds.  In my opinion, this is not a "great love".  It's just hot sex between two very troubled individuals.  

[stagmania]

@kathe5133 I don't even know where to start. I disagree with pretty much everything you just said about Mickey and their relationship, and don't believe it's supported by the show canon. I'll just leave it at that.

[LisaS848]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

What bothered me is not that Fiona didn't think Ian should go with Mickey-of course he shouldn't choose a life on the run; that's just good sense. But she definitely framed it as Ian was doing much better without him and said that Mickey would "set a match" to his life, as if Mickey himself isn't concerned with Ian's well-being. In fact, Ian's well-being was Mickey's primary concern in their relationship, and he did more to help him than Ian's own family did. And if you watch their scenes and listen to Mickey's dialogue, he seemed to have no expectation that Ian would come with him, and was mostly there to say a proper goodbye. I think Ian jumping in the car with him at the end surprised him as much as anyone.

Ian is doing much better without Mickey.  Not saying it's Mickey's fault.  It's just a fact.  And Mickey will "set a match" to his life.  Again, just a fact with the whole being on the run from the law thing.  I don't think anyone, including Fiona, ever said it's all Mickey's fault or that Mickey doesn't love Ian.  They are clearly drawn to each other.  Similar to the way Frank and Monica can't live without each other.  But I do agree that Mickey had no expectation Ian would go with him (even though he was hopeful).  I believe Mickey loves Ian and wants what's best for him.  And he's going to let Ian make his own decision.  And Ian did.  And now that Ian has made a decision they will figure it out.  That's how they work.  Just like Mickey wanted to figure out how to handle the bipolar disorder without the hospital.  (He then learned he couldn't)

[iMonrey]

Quote

He may have been a criminal, and you could make an argument that Ian would be better off without him, but the notion that Mickey was the thing holding Ian back instead of the thing holding Ian together toward the end of their relationship is incredibly tough to swallow.

I did not get that out of this episode, at all, and consider that a strange interpretation of the text. Yes Ian wondered if Fiona had any regrets about not running off with Jimmy back in Season 1 but to draw a line from that to a conclusion that the show is saying Mickey was somehow holding Ian back or was a villain or responsible for Ian's illness? WTF? I did not get the impression the show was saying that, at all.

Quote

what better way to screw an actor over who has pissed off the showrunners, but to write out his character and then retcon the character's story to make him the villain.

Again - how are the retconning Mickey? He was a criminal, he almost killed Sammi. That's what he's in jail for, and now he's an escaped convict. Where's the retcon? 

Do people have some sort of idealized memory/fantasy of Mickey where he was this loving, nurturing, caring partner? Yes he tried to take care of Ian after Ian was diagnosed and that was nice but I'm getting the impression everyone has a very foggy memory of Mickey's actual history here.

Quote

but then place all the blame on Mickey for Ian's breakdown and illness.

Did I miss something? When in the hell did they say that or even imply that?

[STFUFrank]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

What bothered me is not that Fiona didn't think Ian should go with Mickey-of course he shouldn't choose a life on the run; that's just good sense. But she definitely framed it as Ian was doing much better without him and said that Mickey would "set a match" to his life, as if Mickey himself isn't concerned with Ian's well-being. In fact, Ian's well-being was Mickey's primary concern in their relationship, and he did more to help him than Ian's own family did. And if you watch their scenes and listen to Mickey's dialogue, he seemed to have no expectation that Ian would come with him, and was mostly there to say a proper goodbye. I think Ian jumping in the car with him at the end surprised him as much as anyone.

Cameron Monaghan has been on Gotham for several years. It's a small part and he does it concurrently with Shameless. I don't believe he's being written out or that Ian's actually going to Mexico.

Also, Mickey wanted Ian to take his meds before everything with Sammie went down.  Ian didn't want them. He broke up with Mickey because he was becoming too domesticated. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by TotalHellion

[LisaS848]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I did not get that out of this episode, at all, and consider that a strange interpretation of the text. Yes Ian wondered if Fiona had any regrets about not running off with Jimmy back in Season 1 but to draw a line from that to a conclusion that the show is saying Mickey was somehow holding Ian back or was a villain or responsible for Ian's illness? WTF? I did not get the impression the show was saying that, at all.

Again - how are the retconning Mickey? He was a criminal, he almost killed Sammi. That's what he's in jail for, and now he's an escaped convict. Where's the retcon? 

Do people have some sort of idealized memory/fantasy of Mickey where he was this loving, nurturing, caring partner? Yes he tried to take care of Ian after Ian was diagnosed and that was nice but I'm getting the impression everyone has a very foggy memory of Mickey's actual history here.

Did I miss something? When in the hell did they say that or even imply that?

OMG YES In so many ways!  Mickey and Ian have always had a toxic relationship.  It was always so unhealthy!  And to now suddenly say how wonderful a partner Mickey was is confusing to me.  Did he help Ian?  Yes.  But he also beat the shit out of Ian.  And fucked with him at the store.  And wanted to kill Frank (although who doesn't at some point) and the list goes on.  We all love Mickey and Ian.  But I think some people have overly romanticized the relationship. 

[STFUFrank]

6 minutes ago, LisaS848 said:

OMG YES In so many ways!  Mickey and Ian have always had a toxic relationship.  It was always so unhealthy!  And to now suddenly say how wonderful a partner Mickey was is confusing to me.  Did he help Ian?  Yes.  But he also beat the shit out of Ian.  And fucked with him at the store.  And wanted to kill Frank (although who doesn't at some point) and the list goes on.  We all love Mickey and Ian.  But I think some people have overly romanticized the relationship. 

I haven't forgotten but I saw the evolution of Mickey from self loathing, deep in the closet thanks to his father to once he was out his behavior changed. Yes, they were extremely dysfunctional but I saw it as symptoms of not being able to grapple with being gay. His own father had him raped in order to make him straight. But he started to change his behaviors toward Ian once he was out. 

None of that excuses him still resorting to illegal activities for money etc. But I started to see Mickey's behavior as symptoms of being deeply repressed and not able to reconcile that he was gay. The denial ran deep. 

[stagmania]

57 minutes ago, LisaS848 said:

Ian is doing much better without Mickey.  Not saying it's Mickey's fault.  It's just a fact.  

Ian isn't doing better because of Mickey's absence, though. He's doing better because he got his shit together, which is what Mickey wanted him to do (and why Ian dumped him, if you recall). Honestly, debating this is a little pointless because they did a 180 with Ian's character between seasons 5 and 6 that made no sense, so his-post Mickey life doesn't really track with where he and Mickey left off.

29 minutes ago, LisaS848 said:

OMG YES In so many ways!  Mickey and Ian have always had a toxic relationship.  It was always so unhealthy!  And to now suddenly say how wonderful a partner Mickey was is confusing to me.  Did he help Ian?  Yes.  But he also beat the shit out of Ian.  And fucked with him at the store.  And wanted to kill Frank (although who doesn't at some point) and the list goes on.  We all love Mickey and Ian.  But I think some people have overly romanticized the relationship. 

There were a few more (pretty important) seasons after this stuff you mention here. I completely agree that their relationship was unhealthy in many ways, but that was a function of the way they both grew up and not because Mickey was a terrible person. Ian contributed plenty to the dysfunction as well. And they learned how to do better together over time. What I don't understand is why the show (and so many viewers) seem eager to pretend that huge character growth never happened.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, LisaS848 said:

OMG YES In so many ways!  Mickey and Ian have always had a toxic relationship.  It was always so unhealthy!  And to now suddenly say how wonderful a partner Mickey was is confusing to me.  Did he help Ian?  Yes.  But he also beat the shit out of Ian.  And fucked with him at the store.  And wanted to kill Frank (although who doesn't at some point) and the list goes on.  We all love Mickey and Ian.  But I think some people have overly romanticized the relationship. 

Once again, speaking for myself, I have never romanticized Ian and Mickey's relationship and always noted that there was never going to be a happily ever after with them and to be fair, I don't think other people have either. I do remember Mickey and Ian's relationship very well and while it was never going to end with them happy and healthy and in love, what was annoying was, particularly when Ian moved on with Caleb, the not so subtle suggestions that it was difficult for him to be in a normal and healthy relationship because being with Mickey had screwed him up so badly. THAT was the issue for me personally - it was the notion that Ian was so messed up from his relationship with Mickey and in my opinion, Ian and Mickey were unhealthy because they were BOTH troubled individuals from a troubled background. 

There seemed to be this idea that being away from Mickey is what was needed to fix all the things wrong with Ian and that was bullshit because Ian was all kinds of messed up, all on his own, that nothing to do with Mickey. It's why I mentioned the two loser parents who aren't fit to raise a goldfish, the inappropriate sex for years with older men, the whoring that was all his choice and yes, the bipolar disorder. But even that was almost brushed off as, "oh well Ian is taking his meds now and he's all better just because he's now with a good guy in a healthy and normal relationship." So yes, it did give the impression that somehow Ian's not taking his meds, Ian choosing to be a mess was all due to being with Mickey. 

And speaking of the Ian and Mickey relationship, as I said, I do remember it well and it's why I'm always curious about these so awful things Mickey did to Ian throughout that relationship. Ian and Mickey had no relationship other than Mickey stealing from Kash and being the neighborhood bully to everyone. They hook up when Ian showed up to avenge his married lover's honor. At that point, they were two people having sex. Ian sought Mickey out most of the time and Mickey seemed to tolerate him for the most part. Then Mickey gets shot by Kash and landed his butt back in Juvie.

At that point, he and Ian aren't together because he's in Juvie. He gets out and Ian gets him a job at the store and again, they continue to be two kind of/sort of friends, who have sex. Frank walks in on them and Mickey tries to kill Frank but changes his mind and deliberately gets himself arrested again. So once again, he and Ian are apart. Then Ian starts banging grandpa. Mickey gets out and all of a sudden Ian starts whining about wanting more. Going on about grandpa buying him things and not being afraid to kiss him in public. And what do you know, Mickey attempts to give him what he wants which results in his father catching them and having Mickey be raped. 

Then despite it being clear that Mickey has little choice in marrying Svetlana, Ian whines about that, goes to join the army and loses his damn mind along the way. And after much whining from him about Mickey choosing him, Mickey admits to being gay in public and they attempt to be together. But then Ian refuses to take his meds, loses his mind some more, resents their relationship being too "normal" and then later Mickey tries to kill Sammie and ends up in prison again. So what did Mickey do to Ian so much in their relationship? 

Edited December 6, 2016 by truthaboutluv