S02.E08: Episode 8

[magdalene]

I am assuming some of us watching on the PBS pace will want to discuss this particular episode tonight or tomorrow.  

[dubbel zout]

Well, Ross is gross. Elizabeth sucks, too. What a useless piece of humanity. I'm not thrilled with what the previews show, either.

[Clawdette]

Did we get an edited version of the Ross/Elizabeth assignation?  I'll have to rewatch but I don't remember Elizabeth being as resistant as was described in the U.K. version. I may be confusing the earlier airing with the book but wasn't there a "you wouldn't dare" and several "nos?"

[dubbel zout]

No, Elizabeth seemed to be a very willing participant. Ugh.

Good for Demelza for clocking Ross. I don't normally approve of violence, but Ross doesn't seem to respond to much else.

Edited November 14, 2016 by dubbel zout

[magdalene]

It's a pity Demelza is stuck with Ross. She really deserves better.

They must have edited the Ross/Elizabeth sex for PBS. My British friend told me this scene was quite rapetastic when it started.

[Nidratime]

It didn't look to me like Elizabeth objected all that much and seemed to be taunting Ross -- what are you going to do about it?! I can't be alone for 30 years?! -- although she certainly didn't deserve to be attacked for it. Still, the next morning, even though Ross was "vague," it looked like Elizabeth was expecting Ross to do something about what he just did, i.e., find some way to be with her. I would not find it surprising if Elizabeth and people of her class think that Ross' so-called marriage is nothing more than a joke and he *could* up and leave his "kitchen maid" anytime he wanted. I seriously think that Elizabeth would not sweat it much if Ross *did* leave his wife and child for her because, to her, she is the right choice *always* over someone she considers beneath her.

And, I don't know what in the world Ross was suggesting to Demelza the next morning -- that he had to do what he had to do!? Really? What was it he was including it that declaration?! Going to Trenwith and trying to convince Elizabeth not to marry George? Or physically attacking her so that what?! She'd be so overwhelmed by Ross' attentions, she'd back out of her promise to George? What does he think he accomplished other than making a bigger mess of his life. And, no. The loss of his employees at the mine earlier is no excuse for such erratic behavior. It's not another "pickings on the beach for everyone" situation. And, if it is, then one has to wonder if Ross' immediate reaction to a big setback is to make poor decisions and act enormously irresponsible.

Quote

They must have edited the Ross/Elizabeth sex for PBS. My British friend told me this scene was quite rapetastic when it started.

Well, if they did, they did viewers a disservice. There's a big difference in seeing the character object vehemently as opposed to her barely saying a thing and seeming to taunt him.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Nidratime

[NorthstarATL]

I felt as if Demelza was reading my mind there at the end. Ross deserved that and more.

[HoodlumSheep]

Everyone is literally thiiiiiisss close to murdering everyone. Like, I am legit waiting for Nana Poldark to lace George's tea. 

Waiting for a bloodbath.

Ross wants to murder George, George wants to murder Ross and Nana Poldark, Nana Poldark wants to murder George and Elizabeth, Demelza wants to murder Ross and Elizabeth. 

As long as Nana Poldark outlives them all and becomes the reigning queen of the county, I'll be satisfied.

Well we (my mom, brother and I) all saw the Ross/Elizabeth stuff coming a mile away. It was bound to happen. Our version definitely wasn't portrayed as bad as that scene apparently was in the BBC version, by the sounds of it. :(

Ross. Ross, Ross, Ross. You continue to be THE WORST this season. I can't believe how unlikeable of a character you've become the season. I could watch Demelza punching you on loop. 

Elizabeth has also become unlikeable, imo. She was never one of my favorites, but last week she was pretty whiney and this week she's just helplessly flailing about. She has no backbone.

hmmmm...Dwight seemed interested in the Navy. Also, I'm back to kind of disliking Caroline. I didn't like her until about 2 episodes ago, and now I don't care for her again. She just seems too selfish. Dwight's a doctor. It's his job and it seems like his first love. Caroline seems to recognize it, but she expects him to ignore the needs of his patients??

i don't know, I just can't seem to like her very much.

Nana Poldark vs George continues to be the greatest thing about this season. Demelza's been pretty awesome too with all the crap she's had to go through, but Nana vs George owns my existence, so that's that.

Edited November 14, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[NorthstarATL]

I forgave Elizabeth..and Ross...quite a bit when their separation was one of timing and lack of information, and they managed to do the right thing. But Demelza has stuck with Ross through SO much, and to have Elizabeth all "helpless" because she's a widow now is too convenient. In the modern era she'd be calling his cell at all hours asking him to kill bugs or check for the sound she's hearing outside. meantime Demelza's handling everything at home, and even helping out the townsfolk. (Of course, it seems that neither Ross NOR Demelza have any clue where their kid is.)

[Nidratime]

Someone on another message board mentioned that the U.S. version of the scene was cut, probably for time. (I can't believe PBS cut important aspects of that scene because Masterpiece viewers are squeamish. They've shown a lot worse on PBS, so that would be utterly ridiculous, if not patronizing. If they think the viewers are that delicate, they should've put a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode warning that there's adult content.)

Anyway, this is what that person said:

Quote

I want to note two important differences in the ... scene as aired here. First, after Ross insists on talking immediately about the marriage plans, Elizabeth's saying, "Downstairs, then" is cut. This edit has the effect of making it seem that Elizabeth has acquiesced to Ross's entry into her bedroom -- or perhaps even implicitly invited him in.

Second, after Ross kisses Liz the second time, her exclamation of "You're hateful, horrible! I detest you!" is cut, as is the rest of the conversation: "You would not dare!" "I would, Elizabeth, and so would you." Instead, after the second kiss, the two of them simply end up writhing on the bed.

I guess we'll only see this if we buy the DVD's.

[Chorusgirl]

27 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

If they think the viewers are that delicate, they should've put a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode warning that there's adult content.)

They apparently did both. They had a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode warning of adult content 

[Caria]

Quote

that he had to do what he had to do!? Really?

So this can be translated as "I had to ride out in the middle of the night and then sleep with her. I had too! It was my duty."  I know he did it all out of pure emotion but what an odd, odd thing to say, especially to his wife. This show.....smh.....I'm watching because I like the genre but this has to be one of the most boring of its kind ever. Not only are most of the main characters incredibly not likeable but it seems like the episodes pretty much lather, rinse, and repeat over and over.  I was being facetious when I stated previously that I'm rooting for George at this point but you know what? I really am now.  Go Warleggen!

[BusyOctober]

Never read the books, never saw the original 70's series, so forgive my ignorance.  We are supposed to like Ross, right?  He's the protagonist and the hero?  Ross is turning into the biggest ball of suck this season.  Every decision he makes is horrible.  He is an egomaniac and only looks out for his interests or what makes him feel good (rescuing that simpering idiot Elizabeth).  I don't want to be spoiled for the rest of the season (or span of the series), but please give me some hope that Demelza's sock to the jaw rattles Ross into reason!  If he's going to end up with Elizabeth and keep killing villagers with his dumb ass mining & smuggling schemes, I don't want to watch! 

[JudyObscure]

9 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

But Demelza has stuck with Ross through SO much, and to have Elizabeth all "helpless" because she's a widow now is too convenient

Elizabeth, too, owes Demelza so much. There's the life of her son and possibly her own.  I can excuse a mother marrying for her child's security, but where are thoughts of her child when she's giving in to her lust for Ross?  I have a feeling George's eldest son is going to bear a striking resemblance to Ross Poldark so there's another child who will suffer.

A small part of me is glad Ross got it out of his system.  The reality couldn't possibly have lived up to the fantasy he's been stoking all these years.  Demelza is so wise, I expect that has occurred to her as a small consolation if she goes forward from this.  It must have been so galling, all these years, to see him obviously worshipping at the foot of Elizabeth's pedestal, now it's crumbled a little bit.

Also, Elizabeth, how dare you make Verity feel unwelcome in her own home?  She was there long before you were.

10 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Also, I'm back to kind of disliking Caroline. I didn't like her until about 2 episodes ago, and now I don't care for her again. She just seems too selfish. Dwight's a doctor. It's his job and it seems like his first love. Caroline seems to recognize it, but she expects him to ignore the needs of his patients??

 I know, and it wasn't just that she was expecting him to forget his duty to his patients, she was expecting some poor person to be in pain, all so she wouldn't have to wait in her carriage.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Everyone is literally thiiiiiisss close to murdering everyone. Like, I am legit waiting for Nana Poldark to lace George's tea. 

Aunt Poldark wouldn't be that subtle. She'd bludgeon George at the dinner table and claim it was the Devil made her do it. Heh.

10 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Elizabeth has also become unlikeable, imo. She was never one of my favorites, but last week she was pretty whiney and this week she's just helplessly flailing about. She has no backbone.

What exasperates me the most about Elizabeth is that she doesn't even try. I get she was raised a gentlewoman and don't know nothin' 'bout keepin' no household, but for FFS, lady, maybe start figuring things out. Go into town and talk to Francis's banker and lawyer. And if you're going to marry for money, maybe choose someone who isn't trying to destroy your extended family, mmkay?

10 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

(Of course, it seems that neither Ross NOR Demelza have any clue where their kid is.)

The scene where the kid got passed from Prudie to Demelza to Ross to Prudie again cracked me up.

ETA: Given how edited the sex scene between Ross and Elizabeth was, I'm surprised it even warranted an advisory. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by dubbel zout
spelling matters

[JudyObscure]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

The scene where the kid got passed from Prudie to Demelza to Ross to Prudie again cracked me up.

I loved that scene when Prudie was approaching and Demelza said to the little boy, "Look!  Who's that coming?" and he full out ran to her.  That had to be real.  That little toddler loves the Prudie actress.  I do too.  It would be fine with me if Ross joined Dwight in a long voyage, while Demelza, Prudie and baby boy stayed behind and made the farm into a big success.  I would watch that for sure.

[HoodlumSheep]

I missed this because my mom and brother were talking: what happened to Elizabeth's mother? What was the diagnosis? Was it a seizure? It looked like a seizure to me. And then she was lying in bed with a foaming mouth :(

[dubbel zout]

Elizabeth's mom likely had a stroke.

[JudyObscure]

Quote

44 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Elizabeth's mom likely had a stroke.

  That was my guess because her mouth was pulled down on one side and the doctor didn't expect her to get better.  What prompted the stroke/seizure was the sight of common people digging in the lawn of an aristocrat!  The horror!

ETA, that sight seemed to play a part in Elizabeth's decision to accept George's proposal, too.  She probably thinks George will go out there in his ruffled shirt with his newly acquired skill in fisticuffs and run them out.  I can't wait to see it.

Edited November 14, 2016 by JudyObscure

[HoodlumSheep]

Thx for answering my question! I was thinking it had to be more of a mix between a seizure and stroke (which is probably very possible), because I feel like the symptoms (or how it was portrayed) didn't quite line up with it just being a stroke. Like, the mouth being pulled down (after it happened) is a symptom, but usually you can see parts of the face/body going limp/pulling down while the stroke is occuring usually and I think the actress failed at portraying that. She looked more like she was having a seizure.

 But there's probably multiple different symptoms that don't line up with the ones I know about and it could have easily been a mix of a stroke/seizure so I'll be quiet now because I am probably woefully inadequate about discussing the subject. 

Maybe if I watched the scene again I'd form a better opinion on what Elizabeth's mom suffered from.

Sorry for the strange fixation about this scene, but I want the full diagnosis, dang nab it! Curse you, you limited-medical-knowledge late 18th century! I need answers!

Edited November 14, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Shipper]

13 hours ago, Clawdette said:

Did we get an edited version of the Ross/Elizabeth assignation?  I'll have to rewatch but I don't remember Elizabeth being as resistant as was described in the U.K. version. I may be confusing the earlier airing with the book but wasn't there a "you wouldn't dare" and several "nos?"

I wondered bc I heard no 'no'.  Still, Ross is awful. Wish it were viable for Demelza to up and leave him. 

[seveneightnine]

What were Ross's exact words to Demelza?

"I had no choice."  Was that it? Good Lord that man is a piece of work! I cheered so loud when she laid him out.

I had heard the R/E scene was much more 'rapey', so I was mildly surprised at the consensual looking situation, plus... He stayed all night? Seriously? That is not something he can blame on his heightened emotional state. That's just a lazy man wanting to stay in bed with a warm willing body. There was no "Ohmigod, what have I done" afterward? No "This was a huge mistake, I love my wife", nothing?

Only later, as he is riding up to Npara and sees Delmelza hanging laundry, does he seem even the least contrite. "Sorry/notsorry, I couldn't help it."

What a d-bag!

Edited November 14, 2016 by seveneightnine

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

the sight of common people digging in the lawn

Was the digging there partly what caused the collapse in the mine? I can imagine George wanting to sabotage things like that.

Edited November 14, 2016 by dubbel zout

[NumberCruncher]

4 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

Never read the books, never saw the original 70's series, so forgive my ignorance.  We are supposed to like Ross, right?  He's the protagonist and the hero?  Ross is turning into the biggest ball of suck this season.  Every decision he makes is horrible.  He is an egomaniac and only looks out for his interests or what makes him feel good (rescuing that simpering idiot Elizabeth).  I don't want to be spoiled for the rest of the season (or span of the series), but please give me some hope that Demelza's sock to the jaw rattles Ross into reason!  If he's going to end up with Elizabeth and keep killing villagers with his dumb ass mining & smuggling schemes, I don't want to watch! 

Yes, we are supposed to like Ross but I think the show hasn't exactly been shy about showing the audience that he's both a noble and a deeply flawed man.  I do, however, have to disagree that he only looks out for his interests.  He's really one of the few gentry members who fight to employ and even feed the common folk.  Even his stubbornness in keeping his mine open is, in large part, driven by his desire not to see his workers' families starve.

As to your request, here's as much hope as I'll give you without providing too much in terms of spoilers:

Spoiler

Ross still acts like an ass and refuses to take responsibility for a little while, even as Demelza gives him the most glorious reproof.  It's not until Ross inserts himself into another situation that he reconsiders his arrogance towards the situation.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Fail, PBS.  For whatever their reason, PBS gave us a distorted version of this show, by cutting out Elizabeth's very clear objections to Ross's advances.  The original version looked like rape.  

In the edited version we got, Ross is merely an adulterer -- with Elizabeth as a very willing participant in the adultery.  In the original version shown in the UK, as meant by the show's producers, Ross takes her, ignores her objections & arrogantly states she wants him as badly as he wants her.  Uh, sounds like rape to me.  Not much ambiguous about it.  

So in our version, Ross is a creep & a cheater, who casually cheats without caring a bit that his wife knows.  In the UK version, Ross is a creep & a rapist, who takes a woman he wants, when he wants because he feels he owns her & has a right to control her.

Actually, I'm not making a judgement on Ross here.  He is reflective of a character in the 18th century & written in a novel published in 1945.  So maybe using rape as a romantic shtick was acceptable back then.  I'm annoyed with PBS for altering the scene so the context was completely different than what was intended by the producers of the show.  It drastically alters our perception of Ross.

I'm not even sure the edited rape scene was using rape as a romantic notion.  I think this was a plot device for the future -- say when she'll have Ross's baby while married to George.  And it sure was building up to this, given how they were always eyeing each other with those I-want-you looks & Ross was giving all his money to her & she was so whiny & dependent on him.

Get him, Demelza.  Get him good.  Creep.

Edited November 14, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[heisey]

53 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Was the digging there partly what caused the collapse in the mine? I can imagine George wanting to sabotage things like that.

I wondered about that, too - especially when the diggers left, apparently without protest, after George went out and spoke to them.

[Shipper]

1 hour ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Actually, I'm not making a judgement on Ross here.  He is reflective of a character in the 18th century & written in a novel published in 1945.  So maybe using rape as a romantic shtick was acceptable back then.  I'm annoyed with PBS for altering the scene so the context was completely different than what was intended by the producers of the show.  It drastically alters our perception of Ross.

Yes and no.  Yes in that it is a departure.  It seemed consensual in the PBS version so he doesn't look like a rapist.  But he DOES still look like a douchebag with a sense of entitlement that's out of control with women.

 

 He is possessive of Elizabeth.  He went there to prevent her from marrying another man despite having no claim on her.  He thinks  he can sex her up, that he is entitled to do so,  because... why, exactly?   Seriously, why?  BC he's the dick in the sole  Poldark family?  

He also thinks sleeping with her will stop the wedding.  And he does this with no thought to her reputation or the possibility of her becoming pregnant.  Why? Because he's the man and thus is entitled to control her and stipulate what she may and may not do with her own life.   

 

...And he can menace his wife for trying to talk him out of screwing around.  

...And he can tell his wife that he was entitled to do all of this because he's the dick of the house.  

 

So, even without a rape, he is entitled, controlling, and dismissive, full of arrogant belief that he owns these women and they must suck it up and do as he sees fit, bowing to his opinions and whims despite years of evidence that he is a hot headed fool who makes dangerous, unthinking choices on a regular, dare I say constant basis (my opinion of his overall idiocy will never overcome his agreeing to a loan at 40% interest.  What,  other than disaster,  could he have expected.  40%!!!!  Idiot) 

Ross still comes off as arrogant, entitled, controlling, sexist and overall an idiot, who doesn't realize he's a creep where women are concerned.  

 

Ugh!  It being the 18th century, Demelza can't dump and divorce his ass, but I wish it were an option.  

 

Re: George,. I wish they would make him less mustache twirly. He definitely set up the tin prospectors on Elizabeth's property. He did it in his stalking pursuit of her.  But I wish there had been a moment of shock for him when Elizabeth's mom stroked out.  George isn't omnipotent.  He wasn't arranging a stroke, just scaring Elizabeth.  There should have been a moment of surprise even dismay over what his scheme had caused, then he decide since it happened might as well use it for his advantage.  He'd still be a villain but a less ridiculous one.  

 

And yes, I root for Nana Poldark. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Shipper

[taanja]

1 hour ago, heisey said:

I wondered about that, too - especially when the diggers left, apparently without protest, after George went out and spoke to them.

There was a brief scene with George and his (uncle?) where he says 'The protesters are in place -- or something like that.

Edited November 14, 2016 by taanja

[dubbel zout]

I remember that scene, but it's still unclear if the protesters were there only to scare Elizabeth into George's grasping arms.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Actually, I'm not making a judgement on Ross here.  He is reflective of a character in the 18th century & written in a novel published in 1945.  So maybe using rape as a romantic shtick was acceptable back then.  I'm annoyed with PBS for altering the scene so the context was completely different than what was intended by the producers of the show.  It drastically alters our perception of Ross.

I'm reading the books now and I wonder how that scene plays out there.  I saw it as more rape than seduction because Ross basically attacked Elizabeth in her bedroom and then expected Demelza to be okay with it.   I laughed when she decked him. 

George in the books strikes me as more of a lug than he is in the show.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Neurochick

[magdalene]

I wish Demelza could leave and divorce him but then she and her child would starve. I wish she could get even with Ross and have an affair with someone else but then she would be labeled a slut.  Any which way she loses. 

Damn the time period with all the power only for the men.

[dubbel zout]

The double standard is alive and well even today, in 2016. We've still got a ways to go.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Is the way Demelza behaves here true to the novel?  I get that she's spirited, but her general attitude seems way out of step with this period.  She seems too contemporary to me -- because in so many ways she clearly doesn't accept her supposed place as a wife in this period.  Look, I think she's great because of this, but doesn't it make her ridiculously unrealistic?  Still, her clocking d-bag Ross worked for me.  Awesome!

Gee, I remember seeing something about "Ross hate" in the threads for some of the earlier eps from this season.  I merely disilked him then.  Now I officially hate him.

So in the PBS version, we now see how Ross cheats casually without caring if his wife knows.  And in the UK version Ross routinely rapes as if it's ho-hum & just another day in his life -- that is, when he isn't risking villagers' lives with moronic decisions on the mine.  Uh, I stand by my "Ross hate".

[Clawdette]

The digging had nothing to do with the mine collapse. The men were there solely to scare Elizabeth and to drive her closer to George. 

[dubbel zout]

15 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

 I get that she's spirited, but her general attitude seems way out of step with this period.  She seems too contemporary to me -- because in so many ways she clearly doesn't accept her supposed place as a wife in this period.

I don't know about BookDemelza, but women have been pushing against the patriarchy from the get-go. In a lot of ways, women like Caroline and Demelza, at the opposite ends of the class structure, were best able to try to change things. Caroline because of her money, which gave her some protection, and Demelza because she had no money, so what was there to lose? And there were men who wanted and encouraged their wives to be independent thinkers and do their own thing, so it wasn't one way.

Sadly, though, we're still pushing against the patriarchy.

[JudyObscure]

14 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

In a lot of ways, women like Caroline and Demelza, at the opposite ends of the class structure, were best able to try to change things.

I agree.  The precarious middle-income  women always had to worry about keeping themselves and their children in the status quo.  See Elizabeth, in grave danger of getting frown marks from worry.  Both Caroline and Demelza spent time stifled, in very different ways, under the old men in their lives.  Once such women break away they usually want to assert themselves.  We've seen Demelza stomp off before.  She knows she can make it on her own.  If she stays now, it wont be out of fear for herself, but for her child and because, darn it,  from they day she set foot there it's been her brains and effort that have made the place successful, far more than Ross.  Demelza  has probably planted things, and stored things away, that Ross knows nothing about.  Of course, she also still loves Ross, mores the pity. It's part of her nature to love with the same loyalty as her dog.

[purist]

If anyone is interested, I just posted an article in the Media thread that looks at the rape scene from a feminist perspective.

[nodorothyparker]

Demelza is being portrayed a lot more contemporary here than she is in the novels.  Yes, she's very strong willed and spirited but she's also a woman of her time and her actions and attitudes there generally reflect that.  We've been discussing this in the book thread.  Women in England won't have legal rights to divorce or even their own children for nearly another hundred years.

[candall]

Well.  I'm outraged.

 

I kind of wanted Demelza to not step aside and just let Ross shove her out of the way, as he would any other insignificant impediment standing between him and Elizabeth.  Let's just get all the cards on the table and not harbor any pretense that Ross is some principled gentleman who would never lay a hand on his wife in his drive to reach his emotional mistress/sidepiece/obsession/lover/ex-fiancée.  UUF.

Plus, it would be consistent for him to physically overpower Demelza's objections and then do the same to Elizabeth and her objections.

 

I'm too mad to even address:  "You must see I had no choice."

 

Really tough day for Demelza.  She learned her husband is willing to betray her financially, emotionally, sexually, and legal recourse is still a hundred years away.  That roundhouse punch was her only avenue for relief, so I'm glad she was able to land solid delivery.

I'm going to go watch her do it again.

[ScoobieDoobs]

So what is Demelza's recourse for Ross's philandering in her face & his routinely wreckless behavior that could easily land him in prison for years & his idiotic ways with their finances that ALWAYS lead them to being broke?  Making him jealous with a flirtation with the hot soldier?  Or wear hot dress to a party & tease every man in sight?  Would a married woman in this time period do such a thing?

If Demelza thought Ross was quite a catch when she married him, guess she sees . . . uh, not so much.  Ugh, how many of us can relate?  The hot guy (or gal) who is not at all what they appear to be.  Be careful with that hot soldier, Demelza.  He's pretty to look at, but he smells like trouble to me -- and he was just holding her prisoner last ep.  I don't trust him one bit.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Anyone else think that "morning after" scene with Ross & Elizabeth was weird?  OK, so let's go with how there was absolutely no rape & this was merely Ross's form of "seducing" Elizabeth & they did what they both have wanted to do for a long time.  What were their expectations the morning after?

Ross could have ordered her yet again to not marry George.  He didn't do that.  Instead he slunk out to go back to Demelza.  And Elizabeth barely said anything.  Guess this was supposed to be acknowledgement from both of them that having sex changed nothing about their lives?

[seveneightnine]

Yeah, ScoobieDoobs, I thought it was very odd. First, that he stayed all night and then their conversation, or lack there of. I mean if we are some how supposed to buy into the fact that he is pushed into this act (NOT buying it) by all the emotional turmoil of the day, how do you explain staying all night? Wouldn't the emotional 'heat', if you will, be gone after the act was completed?

And then the next morning, he's just getting dressed like NBD. I didn't just cheat on my wife with my currently-engaged, previous fiancee. No conversation about what happened or what happens next. I guess he did shut her down when she tried to ask. But still, you have no thoughts on what just occurred? Or what occurred a few hours ago? Nothing?

It was weird.

[nodorothyparker]

By every measure of their society, though, Ross is still a huuuuge catch for Demelza.  A down on his luck gentleman or even one who makes stupid financial decisions is still a member of the gentry and therefore more than a poor near illiterate daughter of a miner turned maid could have reasonably expected for herself.  That's been a running subplot throughout.  No one questioned that Francis was still a gentleman even when he was openly whoring and gambling away the family assets last season.

She certainly can flirt or even have an affair.  Those things did of course happen, but the possible consequences are far more serious for her than they would be for Ross.  He can't divorce her because that's not really an option at this time, but if he really wanted to be an ass about it he could probably chuck her out of the house or take their child away because again women have almost no legal rights outside of being someone's wife or daughter.  And of course, she'll likely be publicly known for being a loose woman.

[JudyObscure]

Right, Nodorothyparker, good points.  I don't want to see Demelza acting trampy, because it will just play into all the thoughts some of the gentry already have about her and although Ross might be jealous enough to throw her on the bed for  his favorite kind of  rough sex, Mr. Romance will not really have learned anything or made a final lasting choice.

At the risk of getting a "blaming the victim," lecture I just have to voice a few words of anger at Elizabeth. Ross definitely should have stopped when she resisted, but when a woman of that period allows a man into her bedroom while she is in her nightgown and has her hair down,  it's equivalent to letting a man in today,  while wearing your best Victoria's Secret set. Add to that the fact that this is the man who recently made a pass at her and to whom she has recently admitted, "It was always you."   It doesn't excuse Ross's behavior but she does deserve one of Demelza's punches.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Yeah, neither one of those 2 have clean hands (uh, so to speak) from that sleazy hookup.  Actually, I agree with what some of Ross said to her before the hookup.  She's manipulative as hell & has him wrapped around her finger.  But he bears responsibility for this because he's constantly falling for her drama -- whether she has drama or not.

As far as him being in her bedroom?  Wasn't it pretty clear he forced his way in?  And yet, we never heard her tell him to get out, did we?  Games, games, games.  That Lizzie is a big games player.  Blech, I'm hating her even more than Ross.  She deserves to be married to a prissy sexless creep like George.

Btw, I'm having a prob with some of the casting on this show.  I've already said the actress who plays Caroline can't act.  Her line readings are too flat, she's way too smirky & she looks like she's waiting to audition for some beauty pageant.  

Jeez, when George said to Liz that she's too delicate to care for her mother, I burst out laughing.  The actress who plays Elizabeth is beautiful, but she looks like a tough, strapping gal.  She looks like she'd get on just fine screaming & yelling & throwing tables on a Real Housewives show.  Something is off here.  Elizabeth should have been played by an actress more petite & demure & timid, especially so the character's true nature of being manipulative would be even more surprising.  The best this actress can do is kinda/sorta be wishy-washy.  She's so-so at best.

The other prob I'm having is with the actor playing George.  He's just too prissy & pretty.  Is this how he was in the novel?  He should be played by someone who oozes worminess.  Someone who you take one look at & just go  . . . EW!  Someone who looks & acts like Corey Lewandowski.

Edited November 16, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[Ceindreadh]

ScoobieDoobs IIRC, in the books, George is the grandson of a blacksmith and has the build of one. This version of George barely looks as if he'd be able to bend a paper clip, let alone work iron. 

[magdalene]

There is a lot Ross could do to Demelza and nothing Demelza could do to Ross. 

For example, up to and including the Victorian Age husbands sometimes had their "unruly" wives committed to madhouses.  And the conditions in those madhouses were absolutely horrific.

Women just had no rights.  Once married they belonged to their husband.  He had the right to the wife's money, body and any children.  A husband could beat and rape his wife without consequence.  Though I guess if he killed her he might hang for it.  At least I hope so.

Personally I think a woman of independent means was better off if she never married.   

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Elizabeth should have been played by an actress more petite & demure & timid, especially so the character's true nature of being manipulative would be even more surprising.

You would have probably approved of the 1975 Elizabeth played by  Jill Townsend.  I don't remember much about the original series but I remember hating her with a passion for being so prim and mousey and looking like she weighed about 80 pounds.  I couldn't imagine what Ross saw in her while at the same time admitting that she would seem like the ultimate porcelain doll to many men.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JgFd1EFK2mI/UabTceNpk_I/AAAAAAAAdmE/YvVOoYkwPx0/s1600/Elizabeth-3.jpg

[magdalene]

10 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

You would have probably approved of the 1975 Elizabeth played by  Jill Townsend.  I don't remember much about the original series but I remember hating her with a passion for being so prim and mousey and looking like she weighed about 80 pounds.  I couldn't imagine what Ross saw in her while at the same time admitting that she would seem like the ultimate porcelain doll to many men.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JgFd1EFK2mI/UabTceNpk_I/AAAAAAAAdmE/YvVOoYkwPx0/s1600/Elizabeth-3.jpg

I remember calling her the cold fish.  As a viewer you were really left to wonder why Ross pined for her while having vivacious Demelza at home.

[ScoobieDoobs]

And what about Liz's reaction when Demelza pretty much told her . . . Look, hun, I have your number, I'm onto you & I get what you're all about, Ms. Manipulator/Games-Player?  Well, what Demelza actually said to her was kinda funny -- to make sure she returns him when she's done with him.  

And yet, there was Elizabeth, sitting so stone-faced & registering zero reaction after Demelza just put the manipulator in her place.  Was that because the character of Elizabeth is such a humorless cold fish or this actress is limited in acting talent or both?

Edited November 16, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs