S07.E04: Service

[ByTor]

On 11/14/2016 at 0:30 PM, Timetoread said:

I guess I am alone in this but I never saw Carol the way people seem to.  She ALWAYS seemed damaged and afraid.  She became stronger and crafty, no doubt.  But she was also shady, a liar, self absorbed and murderous.   She had to kill the psychotic child because, in her quest to make up for not raising Sophia to fight for her life, she missed ALL the markers that there was something seriously wrong with that child - even when the child's sister tried to tell her.  She taught a psycho how to kill others and the psycho killed her own sister.  Carol killed those people at the prison claiming to try to stop the virus but really to prove to herself that she could go there if need be (a la Shane, with the same results).  Yes she saved everyone in Terminus, but she still wanted to get away from them - she wasn't proud.  And her threatening of Sam made me sick to my stomach.  How many kids have died on her watch?

I've just always thought that the story of Carol was how broken she is.  She thought that becoming strong, fighting and killing without conscience, would make her better.   But it hasn't because the weakness was always inside her.  She's always been a battered woman, but she herself was the abuser.  And the more she killed in the pursuit of being strong, the more she realized she didn't like it.  She is NOT a warrior by nature, but she is a survivor.  What needs to change is how she categorizes these words. 

Nope, you're not alone, and I wish I could give this more than one "like."  I used to be ok with Carol, but she was dead to me with the way she spoke to Sam...especially that she continued to do so after knowing the boy was being abused.

33 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Ha! In that way he's like Paulie on the Sopranos, after he told a joke. "Did you hear that? Did you get it? I just said... "

Oh, how that used to annoy me! :)

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Negan may have a manpower advantage but his extortion racket makes him vulnerable. In order to collect his group has to follow some semblance of a schedule. A schedule opens you up to being ambushed.

That's the approach I think will work. Rick et al., are outnumbered and outgunned. Be surgical. Take out a few at a time, and dispose of the bodies. Let Rick play the stooge to Negan and keep him mollified. 

43 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Oh my! But really does anyone not expect Rick to rise from the ashes and handle Negan?

I actually do, but it will probably end up with ASZ in smoking ruins because these people do not do subtle. It has only been a few days, and it is kind of Rick's fault. It's not too. 

[Timetoread]

22 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Shane is by the far best antagonist the show has had.

Both the Governor and Negan feel like comic book characters, which fails in a TV show. They're too cartoonish.

Absolutely!  Can I be honest here?  I think that the biggest problem with this show is Kirkman.  A television show can be based on a comic but it is not a comic.  I could see Negan being fun on the page, but he is not fun in live action.  Watching people being victimized is not fun in live action.  Heads being bashed in in live action is nauseating.  The whole schtick of man carrying a baseball bat fashioned into a medieval torture device that he uses on people is very unnerving and loses its punch very quickly.  I don't think that Kirkman is a good television writer or is particularly deep.  Gimple actually is, but seems to have his hands tied in regards to Kirkman.  He got his way with Michonne and Rick, which isn't in the comics, but the villains have been falling flat - partly because we don't get to truly see what makes them tick.  I loved Shane and still miss JB's portrayal.  What made him so effective is that he was a whole man.  He did bad things but you understand WHY he did them, it was more of a moral disagreement with him, than a looking confused at the evil that seemed to come out of left field.  He was capable of conveying conflicting feelings in the same space.  One would never doubt that he both hated Rick very much and loved Rick very much.  He was clearly a man capable of love - his scenes with Carl were all beautiful, but hate and jealousy got him into trouble - as it does many normal people.  Years later you can see that Rick still mourns for who Shane once was, though he is resolute that he dealt with what Shane became in the right way.  Negan, however, simply grates, who cares what is good about him when the bad is so over the top.  It's too much and there is no coming back from it.  Kill him, salt the earth and let's move on to better storylines.

[Nowhere]

48 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Nope, you're not alone, and I wish I could give this more than one "like."  I used to be ok with Carol, but she was dead to me with the way she spoke to Sam...especially that she continued to do so after knowing the boy was being abused.

Oh, how that used to annoy me! :)

He was being abused? 

[ByTor]

Just now, Nowhere said:

He was being abused? 

By his father, from what I remember.

[festivus]

34 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Absolutely!  Can I be honest here?  I think that the biggest problem with this show is Kirkman.  A television show can be based on a comic but it is not a comic.  I could see Negan being fun on the page, but he is not fun in live action.  Watching people being victimized is not fun in live action.  Heads being bashed in in live action is nauseating.  The whole schtick of man carrying a baseball bat fashioned into a medieval torture device that he uses on people is very unnerving and loses its punch very quickly.  I don't think that Kirkman is a good television writer or is particularly deep.  Gimple actually is, but seems to have his hands tied in regards to Kirkman.  He got his way with Michonne and Rick, which isn't in the comics, but the villains have been falling flat - partly because we don't get to truly see what makes them tick.  I loved Shane and still miss JB's portrayal.  What made him so effective is that he was a whole man.  He did bad things but you understand WHY he did them, it was more of a moral disagreement with him, than a looking confused at the evil that seemed to come out of left field.  He was capable of conveying conflicting feelings in the same space.  One would never doubt that he both hated Rick very much and loved Rick very much.  He was clearly a man capable of love - his scenes with Carl were all beautiful, but hate and jealousy got him into trouble - as it does many normal people.  Years later you can see that Rick still mourns for who Shane once was, though he is resolute that he dealt with what Shane became in the right way.  Negan, however, simply grates, who cares what is good about him when the bad is so over the top.  It's too much and there is no coming back from it.  Kill him, salt the earth and let's move on to better storylines.

I wish I could like this more than once. Shane was one of my favorite characters because he was a complicated person and not just a bat twirling cartoon character.

[ByTor]

The Saviors coming in and being dicks for the sake of being dicks reminds me of the Kingdom, where one was being a dick for the sake of being a dick & a seconds one told him to stop, the people from the Kingdom have been good to them.  I don't know if anything will come from this later, but I'm curious how this one guy somehow didn't behave like a bully & how he doesn't get his ass beaten for being...well....reasonable.

[Nowhere]

37 minutes ago, ByTor said:

By his father, from what I remember.

I thought the parents had an abusive relationship. I didn't know the kids were involved. Speaking of that, I love how we're supposed to be on Rick's side when he killed the father of two children. I'll admit I wasn't upset about it but really it was sort of fucked up when the older son had a problem with Rick and said to Carl that Rick killed his dad so, yeah it's reasonable to be a little upset, and Carl's response was, "Your dad was an asshole" or something. That got to me. Nobody sympathized at all with the children who just lost their father.  

[ByTor]

4 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

I thought the parents had an abusive relationship. I didn't know the kids were involved. 

There was a scene with Sam and Carol where Carol saw Sam was upset and he "confessed" without really confessing (if that makes sense haha) that he was being abused....at least I assumed it was about him, maybe I was wrong and he was upset about his mother.  

Edited November 15, 2016 by ByTor

[peach]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

It seems that was a line in the comics that everyone wanted in here.

Fan service is ruining this show.  And the fan they are servicing is Kirkman, I think.  Maybe that was a "great line" from the comic, but it killed the cinematic moment. 

Also, I am still in disbelief that they had Rick actually say, "my friend, his name was Shane, he was my partner..." to Michonne who has been there since season 3.

And +100 to all the comments about Shane's character.  I also felt that way about Merle.  He was a real, believable "bad guy," but he also loved his brother, and the situation with Daryl and trying to bring Merle into the prison was a GREAT story, with a realistic conflict between loyalty to blood, and loyalty to your true friends that he hurt.  Glenn's fury.  Rick caught in the middle.  The tension and warrior's respect he had for Michonne that outweighed his own prejudice.  Good stuff.

One of my favorite episodes of the whole series was when Daryl left the prison with Merle, and they had that conversation in the woods where we got the backstory on Daryl's childhood abuse, and his realization that Rick's group is his family, and that also he's outgrown Merle and become his own man.   And this was SHOWN not EXPLAINED.  So much in just a few scenes.  And Merle's story concluded with him sacrificing himself so Daryl had a chance at that life.  <sniffle>

Now we're reduced to Negan explaining and explaining and explaining, topped with explaining that he put his dick down Rick's throat.  Real must see TV.

I did like Rick's two convos with Michonne, those were well-acted, the only problem being the Shane amnesia.  Shanemesia.

[Timetoread]

20 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

I thought the parents had an abusive relationship. I didn't know the kids were involved. Speaking of that, I love how we're supposed to be on Rick's side when he killed the father of two children. I'll admit I wasn't upset about it but really it was sort of fucked up when the older son had a problem with Rick and said to Carl that Rick killed his dad so, yeah it's reasonable to be a little upset, and Carl's response was, "Your dad was an asshole" or something. That got to me. Nobody sympathized at all with the children who just lost their father.  

He was abusive to the mother and the older brother.  There was a scene where she told him to lift his hands over his head but he couldn't.  The implication was that his father had given him a permanent injury.  He hadn't yet gotten to Sam, who his mother had trained to lock himself in his closet until she came for him - which was sometimes delayed because the husband would knock her unconscious.  At any rate Sam was a nervous wreck because of his household.  Carol's psychological abuse I'd say only added to the problem, but really it got him killed.

As for no sympathy for the kids.  I had lots of sympathy for them, their dad was an Ahole and their mother was basically useless.  They never stood a chance.  As for Carl, I thought Carl was nice considering that Ron was telling him about how much he hated his father.  PD was hatable for what he did to Reg alone.

[Ocean Chick]

All we know for sure was that Pete abused both his wife and his older son (did something to his arm so that he couldn't raise it above his head).  There was nothing to acknowledge that Sam himself was being abused, though he definitely witnessed the abuse to the others.  Sam probably wanted the gun to try to save his mother.

Still not seeing Carol's psychological abuse of Sam though.  She told him a scary story.  He wasn't so scared from it that he stayed away from her.  And who did he grab on to when Rick and Pete were going at it?  That's right - the "scary" lady.  Not his mom.  Not his brother.  Not Michonne or Deanna or Maggie.  Carol.  The person he thought could maybe keep him safe.  The boy was shell shocked and damaged long before Carol ever got to ASZ, and his mother and the other fine folk there never got him the help he needed.  That's what got him killed.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Ocean Chick

[Timetoread]

22 minutes ago, ByTor said:

There was a scene with Sam and Carol where Carol saw Sam was upset and he "confessed" without really confessing (if that makes sense haha) that he was being abused....at least I assumed it was about him, maybe I was wrong and he was upset about his mother.  

He was upset about his mother.  Since he saw Carol stealing guns, he wanted her to get one for him so that he could handle his father like a man, and protect his mother.  If Supercuts weren't such a tool, it really could have been a sad storyline,  but again they had to write it like the comics so it was eyeroll inducing.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

2 hours ago, RustbeltWriter said:

I think the showrunners and fans of Negan are blind to the fact that while the character insists he is having consensual sex with his "wives" and that he forbids his thugs to rape, he himself is raping these women. If Dwight's wife Sherry bartered herself to save his life, then she's acting under duress and intimidation. I'm watching closely to see how they treat this issue because Negan outlawing rape while he commits it is not a virtue. The show needs to be honest about what's happening.

Yeah, but she's super hot, man!  Why should he care if she - and the other 'wives' - are a crying mess, or just lie there like a dead fish, when they're not-so-figuratively accepting 'service' from him?

[Timetoread]

6 minutes ago, peach said:

Fan service is ruining this show.  And the fan they are servicing is Kirkman, I think.  Maybe that was a "great line" from the comic, but it killed the cinematic moment. 

Also, I am still in disbelief that they had Rick actually say, "my friend, his name was Shane, he was my partner..." to Michonne who has been there since season 3.

And +100 to all the comments about Shane's character.  I also felt that way about Merle.  He was a real, believable "bad guy," but he also loved his brother, and the situation with Daryl and trying to bring Merle into the prison was a GREAT story, with a realistic conflict between loyalty to blood, and loyalty to your true friends that he hurt.  Glenn's fury.  Rick caught in the middle.  The tension and warrior's respect he had for Michonne that outweighed his own prejudice.  Good stuff.

One of my favorite episodes of the whole series was when Daryl left the prison with Merle, and they had that conversation in the woods where we got the backstory on Daryl's childhood abuse, and his realization that Rick's group is his family, and that also he's outgrown Merle and become his own man.   And this was SHOWN not EXPLAINED.  So much in just a few scenes.  And Merle's story concluded with him sacrificing himself so Daryl had a chance at that life.  <sniffle>

Now we're reduced to Negan explaining and explaining and explaining, topped with explaining that he put his dick down Rick's throat.  Real must see TV.

I did like Rick's two convos with Michonne, those were well-acted, the only problem being the Shane amnesia.  Shanemesia.

Ditto on Merle.  Rick doesn't talk about Shane so it made sense.  Michonne doesn't talk about Andre.  The two of them unfold their worst pain to each other slowly, when they are ready.  I think Rick was speaking to himself, really, to assuage his humiliation by reminding himself that he has taken it before and can take it again for the ones he loves more than his pride.

[J----av]

10 hours ago, Scaeva said:

It would actually be very easy to take out Negan's group. Rick being cowed by Negan's superior numbers is almost as implausible as the zombies.

Negan may have a manpower advantage but his extortion racket makes him vulnerable. In order to collect his group has to follow some semblance of a schedule. A schedule opens you up to being ambushed. Granted, Negan came early...but you know he is eventually going to come rolling up to your front gate. Rick knows they're coming, where they're coming from, and the route they're going to take. He also knows they're going to be taking vehicles and travelling the road rather than bushwacking, because they need to transport whatever they steal from Alexandria. That was the perfect opportunity.

If Rick's group was smart, and unfortunately they've long ago established that they're not, they would have posted an OP (observation post) watching the road to Alexandria. The group would have had a drill where a radio warning from that OP would send the Alexandrians scurrying with their weapons to a prepared ambush site along that same road. Meanwhile they'd have already blocked the road at the ambush site with a downed tree or parked vehicles.

When that convoy inevitably stops because the approach is blocked, you fire that RPG at the rear vehicle in the convoy and completely box them in. The convoy is now trapped on an open road in a blocked ambush, taking small arms fire from heavily armed people in cover and concealment in the woodline. Numbers don't count for much when you're caught in the open and taken by surprise. It would be a Turkey Shoot.

Game over for Negan and his merry men, sparing us from having to hear any more of his blathering.

 This is a impossible idea. Negan showed up a week early , so there is no "schedule", and took all their guns. Also like is said before, Negan has Daryl and Rick would never risk blowing up his BFF with an RPG. IF (and thats a huge if) by some miracle Rick and his crew of TWO good fighters (one who is a bad shot) do take out all 50 of Negans men with him, what are they going to do when all of Negans men that were not there come for them? They would be fucked. If most TV watchers were Rick then they would be dead by now

[peach]

11 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Ditto on Merle.  Rick doesn't talk about Shane so it made sense.  Michonne doesn't talk about Andre.  The two of them unfold their worst pain to each other slowly, when they are ready.  I think Rick was speaking to himself, really, to assuage his humiliation by reminding himself that he has taken it before and can take it again for the ones he loves more than his pride.

I agree Rick doesn't talk about Shane, but he's a known entity.  Even the Governor knew about Shane.  lol  But, yes, I agree that the point of the conversation was about accepting a humiliating situation.

[Raven1707]

I haven't caught up with the thread yet, but the Sunday Cable ratings are in for "Service":

 

“The Walking Dead,” meanwhile, remained the night’s No. 1 cable show by a big, big margin but suffered its third consecutive decline since the season premiere. Its 5.4 rating in adults 18-49 was 0ff 0.3 vs. the prior week. [11.402 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-nov-13-2016/

And here are the Live + Same Day ratings for Season 7 so far:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million

I wonder if this is giving them pause...

[J----av]

9 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I hated this episode.  I hate this season.  They should have fought (and definitely should have at least killed Negan) while they still had guns.  I think we saw a shadowy toddler Judith and heard the final word on who her daddy is because she will soon be gone.  I just don't see how you can film a toddler in Negan world (or maybe in the ZA at all), so I'm afraid she's going to be toast.  That might be the impetus for castrated Rick to fight again.  The new baby focus will be on Maggie's baby.  I will probably keep watching, but alone.  My husband is checking out.  The writing is awful.  There is no way to keep the lie about Maggie a secret. I'm sick of Negan.  This most assuredly did not have to be a 90 minute episode.  

  Almost all of Ricks best fighters are dead or not at Alexandria. Negan has like 60 armed men and 4 or 5 big ass trucks with him AND Ricks best friend hostage. Rick has like 2 good fighters at Alexandria. Him fighting Negan right now would result in him and his whole crew dying quickly. When Carl and Spencer are two of your better fighters you don't have a chance. MAYBE Rick would have a one in a million chance if they had Glenn, Maggie, Tara, Heath, Sasha, Daryl, Abe, Carol, Morgan with them, but they don't. Its been established that most of Alexandria (what like 25 people) are not good fighters

[Ohwell]

Haven't read the comics but I would soooooo love for FPP to be the one to fuck Negan up.

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I think that the biggest problem with this show is Kirkman.  A television show can be based on a comic but it is not a comic.  I could see Negan being fun on the page, but he is not fun in live action.  Watching people being victimized is not fun in live action.  Heads being bashed in in live action is nauseating.

I feel (and I could be wrong) that Kirkman is Mary Sue-ing himself into this - he's a ferocious, powerful, testosterone-fueled Alpha male in his fantasies. I can understand that, but even he should know live action - comic books must be presented differently in order to make characters three dimensional.

Shouldn't totally blame him I guess (or maybe I should. Don't know enough to really say). The rest of the writing crew seems to be composed of teenaged boys and their, "Wouldn't it be fuckin' cool if... "

[Timetoread]

5 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I feel (and I could be wrong) that Kirkman is Mary Sue-ing himself into this - he's a ferocious, powerful, testosterone-fueled Alpha male in his fantasies. I can understand that, but even he should know live action - comic books must be presented differently in order to make characters three dimensional.

Shouldn't totally blame him I guess (or maybe I should. Don't know enough to really say). The rest of the writing crew seems to be composed of teenaged boys and their, "Wouldn't it be fuckin' cool if... "

I keep offering Gimple my services.  The material concept is so rich, they have the actors, and they have the viewers, this could easily be a ten year show.  They have the ideas but very little imagination about how to pull them off as a drama.  It's like they write just to make it to the next big moment when the strength of the show is in the little moments - the humanity that happens between calamity.  I'll stop myself from going into the magic that was Richonne but I'll add others that were just as touching: Daryl and Carol before it became a ship.  Honestly I would have loved to see a long version of Merle and Michonne.  Maggie and Glenn before they became disgusting.  I loved the ONE episode we got of Sasha and Bob.  I think it is natural for these humans to connect and bond over their damage and in spite of it.  We need to explore their personalities.  Like for instance, Eugene had a thing for Rosita.  It would have been cool for him to take Abe to task for hurting her.  It would allow him some growth.  It would show him not just as a scared boy but as a man who wants things men want.  It would also have allowed Abe to have cleaned up the ugly break he had with Rosie.  I swear I could write a whole secondary series on just the moments they let slip by.  I love this show, but I resent it sometimes too.  It really could be better.  Imagine this show written like the first 3 seasons of Battlestar Galactica.  OMG!

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

He was upset about his mother.  Since he saw Carol stealing guns, he wanted her to get one for him so that he could handle his father like a man, and protect his mother.  If Supercuts weren't such a tool, it really could have been a sad storyline,  but again they had to write it like the comics so it was eyeroll inducing.

Thanks for the memory refresher!

1 hour ago, Ocean Chick said:

Still not seeing Carol's psychological abuse of Sam though. 

Threatening to tie him to a tree so the zombies can eat him is kinda abusive IMO.

Edited November 15, 2016 by ByTor

[Ocean Chick]

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Threatening to tie him to a tree so the zombies can eat him is kinda abusive IMO.

Guess I was an abused child and never realized it - my brothers were always threatening to do horrendous things to me.  I remember my mom threatening to whip me to within an inch of my life it I got out of line.  Heh.

[ByTor]

@Ocean Chick, I guess you were....by your name I assume you're a female, and brothers certainly love to abuse their sisters :)

But seriously, I thought that was a sick thing to say to a frightened kid, and I have wished for Carol to be zombie chow ever since.

Edited November 15, 2016 by ByTor

[Timetoread]

4 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

Guess I was an abused child and never realized it - my brothers were always threatening to do horrendous things to me.  I remember my mom threatening to whip me to within an inch of my life it I got out of line.  Heh.

Those were threats by people who loved you and which you knew would not happen.  Carol, when she said those things, was a complete stranger who was not at all joking and was blackmailing him to not tell on her.  Her words came back to mind when he saw the monsters she threatened him with and the fear she put in him got him - and his horrible mother killed.  I mean, I guess I should thank her for that, but still, it wasn't cool.  If an adult spoke to my child in that matter I would gut her like a pig.   I don't happen to be afraid of Carol.  I'm good with weapons too.

[peach]

23 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

  It's like they write just to make it to the next big moment when the strength of the show is in the little moments.

Your whole post was excellent, but I especially agree with this!

[Ocean Chick]

Oh believe me, if my brothers thought they could get away with it, they'd have followed through with some of those threats.  And my mother was proficient with the wooden spoon, though she never came close to "within an inch of my life" (though she DID break one on my behind once).  She was of the old school, and swung a mighty arm.  Guess it worked, as we're all upright, honest citizens today, doing our bit for our country and for society.

I have a good friend who also grew up with brothers.  Once, when they were camping near the ocean, one of her brothers told her how sharks' teeth were so sharp and keen that they could bite off the legs of people who were treading water and the people would never even know it until they tried to stand up and walk.  The next day her dad put her into a inner tube and put her in the ocean (not realizing what big bro had told her) and tied the tube to a stake in the beach.  She spent the next hour or so believing that when her dad pulled her out, she'd have no legs.  That brother is STILL her favorite (and he did a ton of other stuff that nearly got her killed, just being a kid and not thinking things through).  Heh.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Ocean Chick

[HighMaintenance]

2 hours ago, peach said:

I did like Rick's two convos with Michonne, those were well-acted, the only problem being the Shane amnesia.  Shanemesia.

I am dead!  I love this!

[Ailianna]

I find it interesting the number of people leaping to describe how Sam was "psychologically abused" by Carole's one conversation with him, in contrast to the number of people rushing to point out his dad DIDN'T "abuse" him, because dad only hit his mom and big brother, and forced him to end up locked in closets while the violence against family was going on.  Strikes me that' s a lot more abusive, and certainly more psychologically damaging, than one scary conversation.

And I wonder if we are all wandering down past episode trips in this thread because the actual episode was so mind-numbingly boring and horrible that no one really wants to dwell on it.

[Ohwell]

20 minutes ago, ByTor said:

But seriously, I thought that was a sick thing to say to a frightened kid, and I have wished for Carol to be zombie chow ever since.

Same here.  She didn't need to say those things to the poor kid, but to me it just showed just how sick in the head she was/is.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I think the showrunners and fans of Negan are blind to the fact that while the character insists he is having consensual sex with his "wives" and that he forbids his thugs to rape, he himself is raping these women.

Historically, rape has always been common practice for the victors. Nasty and ugly, but it's always been done and Negan's coercion of these women is as much as if he threw them to the ground and pounced.

Quote

I keep offering Gimple my services.  The material concept is so rich, they have the actors, and they have the viewers, this could easily be a ten year show.  They have the ideas but very little imagination about how to pull them off as a drama.  It's like they write just to make it to the next big moment when the strength of the show is in the little moments - the humanity that happens between calamity.  I'll stop myself from going into the magic that was Richonne but I'll add others that were just as touching: Daryl and Carol before it became a ship.  Honestly I would have loved to see a long version of Merle and Michonne.  Maggie and Glenn before they became disgusting.  I loved the ONE episode we got of Sasha and Bob.  I think it is natural for these humans to connect and bond over their damage and in spite of it.  We need to explore their personalities.  Like for instance, Eugene had a thing for Rosita.  It would have been cool for him to take Abe to task for hurting her.  It would allow him some growth.  It would show him not just as a scared boy but as a man who wants things men want. 

This is why I started watching this show -  to see what people would do to survive, to see how human connections can continue in spite of catastrophic events. Agree with everything you say, and this could have been a really adult, introspective program, but I guess when teenaged boys (mentally if not chronologically) are running the show, what can we expect but "cool" killings, gore, mayhem and ridiculous CGI brain spatter? Personally? I would have loved to have watched Merle's  mental and physical struggle for survival on the roof and beyond (to me a much more riveting ep. than Morgan learning to be Karate Kid and cheesemaker's zen lectures), everyone's devastation at Glenn/Abe's brutal deaths, etc. but I guess that doesn't gel with Kirkman and the writers' boners for head bashings, creative zombie disembowelments, dumb cliff-hangers and cartoon villains. 

[Ocean Chick]

9 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Historically, rape has always been common practice for the victors. Nasty and ugly, but it's always been done and Negan's coercion of these women is as much as if he threw them to the ground and pounced.

This is why I started watching this show -  to see what people would do to survive, to see how human connections can continue in spite of catastrophic events. Agree with everything you say, and this could have been a really adult, introspective program, but I guess when teenaged boys (mentally if not chronologically) are running the show, what can we expect but "cool" killings, gore, mayhem and ridiculous CGI brain spatter? Personally? I would have loved to have watched Merle's  mental and physical struggle for survival on the roof and beyond (to me a much more riveting ep. than Morgan learning to be Karate Kid and cheesemaker's zen lectures), everyone's devastation at Glenn/Abe's brutal deaths, etc. but I guess that doesn't gel with Kirkman and the writers' boners for head bashings, creative zombie disembowelments, dumb cliff-hangers and cartoon villains. 

I soooooo agree with this.  I love exploring what makes us humans.  How do we make connections with each other, and how strong can they be in perilous times?  How can someone be brought to their lowest point and still find the strength to rise up again?  But no, watching zombie heads get sliced in half time and time again, and watching brains splatter around are waaaaaaaaaay more important to watch than character growth.

[Timetoread]

17 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I find it interesting the number of people leaping to describe how Sam was "psychologically abused" by Carole's one conversation with him, in contrast to the number of people rushing to point out his dad DIDN'T "abuse" him, because dad only hit his mom and big brother, and forced him to end up locked in closets while the violence against family was going on.  Strikes me that' s a lot more abusive, and certainly more psychologically damaging, than one scary conversation.

And I wonder if we are all wandering down past episode trips in this thread because the actual episode was so mind-numbingly boring and horrible that no one really wants to dwell on it.

I think you misread the convo.  We did in fact state that he was abused and that his home life was what made him the basket case that he was.  The question was asked if he described being beaten by his dad and the distinction was made that the narrative stated that his father was actively beating the mother and the brother but not yet Sam.  Not a single living soul implied that this meant he was spared any trauma as it was also pointed out that Sam had already decided to kill his father to protect his mother. 

That said the convo was a continuation of our disapproval of Carol's actions, the main point, since we were discussing Carol not Sam, which only added to his problems.

[Ocean Chick]

But Carol didn't know about his home life at the time she told him the story, so she really shouldn't be held liable to adding fuel to the already traumatized kid.  I wasn't already traumatized by other things when my brothers threatened me, so there was no harm, no foul.  Same with my friend.  He was just some sneaky kid who was hanging out where he wasn't wanted. 

[Timetoread]

The point is that it is not okay for some strange adult to say "If you tell your parents what you saw me do, I will kill you."  to any child.  Period.  

[ByTor]

My issue isn't that Carol told Sam a "story," it's that she out & out threatened him.

[AngelaHunter]

3 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

The point is that it is not okay for some strange adult to say "If you tell your parents what you saw me do, I will kill you."  to any child.  Period. 

No, it's not, but Carol is deranged and has been for quite some time. I have a bigger issue with Jessie. If an adult woman chooses to stay with an abusive man, that's her perogative. I just have a real problem with women who subject helpless children to abuse this way. Even if the Porchdick wasn't yet physically abusing Sam, it's still serious mental abuse for a child to live in a home where such things are going on.  

[magemaud]

21 hours ago, millennium said:

When Dorothy melted the Wicked Witch, none of the soldiers retaliated against her.   They were kinda relieved as I recall.   Maybe Negan's men would be relieved too.   Finally, a moment of silence.   Picture them meekly handing Lucille to Rick and saying, "Yes, and take it with you."

And when the Witch was melted into a puddle, and Dorothy tried to apologize, the soldiers dropped to their knees and broke into cheers of "Hail Dorothy!" I'm just hoping Daryl, Dwight and Sherry, all of whom have reasons to hate Negan, hatch a plan to get rid of him. 

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

And I wonder if we are all wandering down past episode trips in this thread because the actual episode was so mind-numbingly boring and horrible that no one really wants to dwell on it.

Excellent point! :)

[ganesh]

I'd be all for a "my enemy of my enemy is my friend" alliance with Daryl and Dwight, but that means Daryl has to suck it up and say "I am Negan" first. Dwight's plan is going to have to be so good, it makes D Day look like an episode of GI Joe from the 80s though. 

[pasdetrois]

Where is Judith? In some seasons she is everywhere, being hauled around like a sack of potatoes. Now we haven't seen her in ages.

I wonder if the absence of Judith and other children this season is because the writers don't want to go there with Negan's sadism. I mean, he wouldn't be all loving and gentle with children - he would use them to his advantage, like he does everyone and everything else.

ETA: For Pete's sake I just remembered we saw Judith in her crib. Still, we haven't seen her and other kids for many episodes.

Edited November 16, 2016 by pasdetrois

[J----av]

4 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I keep offering Gimple my services.  The material concept is so rich, they have the actors, and they have the viewers, this could easily be a ten year show.  They have the ideas but very little imagination about how to pull them off as a drama.  It's like they write just to make it to the next big moment when the strength of the show is in the little moments - the humanity that happens between calamity.  I'll stop myself from going into the magic that was Richonne but I'll add others that were just as touching: Daryl and Carol before it became a ship.  Honestly I would have loved to see a long version of Merle and Michonne.  Maggie and Glenn before they became disgusting.  I loved the ONE episode we got of Sasha and Bob.  I think it is natural for these humans to connect and bond over their damage and in spite of it.  We need to explore their personalities.  Like for instance, Eugene had a thing for Rosita.  It would have been cool for him to take Abe to task for hurting her.  It would allow him some growth.  It would show him not just as a scared boy but as a man who wants things men want.  It would also have allowed Abe to have cleaned up the ugly break he had with Rosie.  I swear I could write a whole secondary series on just the moments they let slip by.  I love this show, but I resent it sometimes too.  It really could be better.  Imagine this show written like the first 3 seasons of Battlestar Galactica.  OMG!

 Disagree. The shows biggest weakness has always been the smaller quieter character building moments. Thats why people say the show drags and only has a few good episodes a season. There is no Vince Gilligan, David Chase or Matthew Weiner with the show. TWD has always got by by having a cool world and big moments with filler (attempted and failed character building) in between

[J----av]

4 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

Guess I was an abused child and never realized it - my brothers were always threatening to do horrendous things to me.  I remember my mom threatening to whip me to within an inch of my life it I got out of line.  Heh.

 Your brothers never seriously threatened to have you killed and you knew that. Not close to what Carol did

[Persnickety1]

On 11/14/2016 at 3:25 PM, yoyo926 said:

Where o where to begin with this episode. First off why isn't anyone capable of coming up with a  contingency plan. I feel like I can just picture the rusty gears in their minds going, gee this farm prison suburban town seems really safe from walkers/ crazy people trying to kill us but just in case lets hide weapons/ supplies and not leave a FUCKING WRITTEN INVENTORY of all of our stuff with the person Carol has duped not once but twice. Don't hide things in the secret drain that leads outside that only Aaron and Maggie know about. Don't dig an empty grave and put weapons and supplies in there because that's just stupid. I get that Rick is in shock as most of team family is but I have a hard time believing Michonne or anyone one for that matter didn't take over and figure out how to stash more supplies.

Preach it!  These people are just what Carl predicted they would become when they first arrived.  Weak.

Daryl the Master Tracker letting Dwight get the jump on him 3 different times?  Has his lost his hearing or hunter instincts somewhere along the way?

Rick being so damned arrogant and cocky in the second half of season 6, thinking they had the world by its collective balls and it was theirs for the taking.  

No one doing any research into Negan and the Saviors before Maggie and Rick climbed on board, naively cocksure they could eliminate the saviors without even knowing how many there were?  And, bless his gorgeous heart, Jesus did tell them he didn't know many but had seen them in groups of up to 20.

Ugh, the list just goes on and on.  They became complacent and cocky, and, as a result, weak.  

 

On 11/14/2016 at 3:25 PM, yoyo926 said:

 

I was really hoping Rosita would have killed Spenser out in the woods just for being a general asshole and he is obviously going to sell them all out to Negan. Since she didn't, I just knew Rick was going to beat him to death but he didn't. I must have looked at the clock at least 4 times watching this so called extra long special about Negan. I'm not a suicidal person but I would have taken one for the team and shot him just so he could shut up. He is a cartoon that works in the comic, but TV... not so much. I love to watch a good villain but he is just so annoying I'm starting to think his real power lies in his ability talk and bore people into submission. My real question is if 4 different groups are sharing this area how much supplies could really be left to get at this point and how are these groups suppose to get supplies for Negan with no guns?

Also Rick's reveal, uh we pretty much knew that season 2. God what did these people talk about while they were on the road. The computer network goes down at my job for an hour we are yaking nonstop. 

I'm hoping the stealing/hoarding/cowardly Spencer meets a grisly fate...  Even if he was kinda/sorta right about things going to shit once Rick and Co arrived, things would eventually have gone to shit at Alexandria anyway.  Denial wasn't just a river for those asshats, it was a full-blown ocean.  

Hell, Andrea told the Governor all about Judith's questionable paternity and the Governor, in turn, brought it up to Rick.  Apparently, without Andrea, there's no CDB grapevine.    

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, peach said:

Also, I am still in disbelief that they had Rick actually say, "my friend, his name was Shane, he was my partner..." to Michonne who has been there since season 3.

Uhhh... yeah, kinda. 

Michonne first surfaced at the very end of S2Ep13 (the Season 2 finale) - but excepting Andrea, Michonne had no contact with CDB until S3Ep6 (when she brings to the Prison the baby supplies Glenn and Maggie were collecting before Merle grabbed them).

Which meant Michonne never met Shane (who died in S2Ep12 at the Farm) or Lori (who died in S3Ep4 giving birth to Judith shortiy after arriving at the Prison) - just Little Miss Pop 'n Fresh Judith, Straight Outta Wombtown the day before. 

So - maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not quite getting the disbelief...?

[mamadrama]

13 hours ago, J----av said:

 This is a impossible idea. Negan showed up a week early , so there is no "schedule", and took all their guns. Also like is said before, Negan has Daryl and Rick would never risk blowing up his BFF with an RPG. IF (and thats a huge if) by some miracle Rick and his crew of TWO good fighters (one who is a bad shot) do take out all 50 of Negans men with him, what are they going to do when all of Negans men that were not there come for them? They would be fucked. If most TV watchers were Rick then they would be dead by now

I guess I just don't see this as an "impossible" idea. It's a TV show. They fought their way through Terminus without any weapons; Carol single-handedly took out most of them. In my opinion, they haven't fought back NOT because they can't but because what is going on is being used as a plot point. If the story writers really wanted them to kick ass and slaughter all the Saviors with toothpicks when they walked through the front gate then they would. It wouldn't be any less believable than some of the other things they've gotten out of.

[Ouisch]

8 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

 

Where is Judith? In some seasons she is everywhere, being hauled around like a sack of potatoes. Now we haven't seen her in ages.

I wonder if the absence of Judith and other children this season is because the writers don't want to go there with Negan's sadism. I mean, he wouldn't be all loving and gentle with children - he would use them to his advantage, like he does everyone and everything else.

 

It appeared that Negan is actively attempting to father his own child (remember in The Cell Sherri was looking at a negative pregnancy test and Dwight told her "better luck next time", or something like that). So I wonder if he would be nice to all small children, like Judith, or just his own spawn?

[jsbt]

16 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Absolutely!  Can I be honest here?  I think that the biggest problem with this show is Kirkman.  A television show can be based on a comic but it is not a comic.  I could see Negan being fun on the page, but he is not fun in live action.  Watching people being victimized is not fun in live action.  Heads being bashed in in live action is nauseating.  The whole schtick of man carrying a baseball bat fashioned into a medieval torture device that he uses on people is very unnerving and loses its punch very quickly.  I don't think that Kirkman is a good television writer or is particularly deep.  Gimple actually is, but seems to have his hands tied in regards to Kirkman.  He got his way with Michonne and Rick, which isn't in the comics, but the villains have been falling flat - partly because we don't get to truly see what makes them tick.  I loved Shane and still miss JB's portrayal.  What made him so effective is that he was a whole man.  He did bad things but you understand WHY he did them, it was more of a moral disagreement with him, than a looking confused at the evil that seemed to come out of left field.  He was capable of conveying conflicting feelings in the same space.  One would never doubt that he both hated Rick very much and loved Rick very much.  He was clearly a man capable of love - his scenes with Carl were all beautiful, but hate and jealousy got him into trouble - as it does many normal people.  Years later you can see that Rick still mourns for who Shane once was, though he is resolute that he dealt with what Shane became in the right way.  Negan, however, simply grates, who cares what is good about him when the bad is so over the top.  It's too much and there is no coming back from it.  Kill him, salt the earth and let's move on to better storylines.

Kirkman has always been the problem with this show, and until this season I have found it profoundly underrated and unfairly maligned, especially in the Gimple era. Now the problem is just much more evident.

Why are we on Showrunner #3? Robert Kirkman. Who makes sure all the comic book canon and fan service shit gets in no matter what? Robert Kirkman. Is Gimple helpless? No Does he make bad choices all his own? Yes, sometimes. His brilliant ideas for montage (the Jessie flashbacks, Rick's ridiculous montage vision shit in the premiere this season) are horrible, and he is the showrunner and he makes mistakes. But I think nine times out of ten, Gimple has managed to make Kirkman's OTT comic book characters and plot twists which are ludicrous on the page - Abraham, Rosita, even the Governor, and yes, elements of Michonne early on - palatable, human, relatable and grounded in some truth. Jon Bernthal, Frank Darabont and Glen Mazzara did the same with Shane, who was pretty much a walking cliche in the comics. But the tenth time out of ten is Negan, and I always suspected he would be.

Negan in the book is real fun if you are a teenager, or an arrested adolescent male trapped in the body of a hyperbolic thirtysomething. He cusses non-stop, is vaguely redolent of someone imitating a Tarantino movie, and has a bat wrapped in barb wire that he calls a female name - supercool! If you have aged beyond 17, Negan instantly becomes much more tiresome to endure. I couldn't stand him in the comics. I think Jeffrey Dean Morgan is incredibly talented and is giving it his best and I don't want to see him go yet, but everything about Negan at present seems firmly rooted in the text, the comic book caricature. And all using him to what I'm sure Robert Kirkman would call 'the hilt' is doing is upping the ante on what is the comic book's worst aspect and what critics have rightly pilloried the show for this season: Repetitious, grinding, pointless misery/torture porn. It's why I stopped reading the comic long ago, but to Kirkman I'm sure this is just fantastic. It is nihilism in monotone, and it betrays what is at the core of what Scott Gimple has always seemed more interested in: Making a show about how people survive the apocalypse and build something new. But that doesn't sell to as many teenagers as gore and Best Kills of the Week. I happen to think the show has done a better job of becoming more than the sum of its text, and being consistent in quality, than people give it credit for. It's not perfect at all, it has missteps, but it's increased every year for me until now. 

I am sure the show will pull out of this slump and I hope Gimple will find a way to make Negan function better within the show he has built. I just wish this crap - and it is largely terrible any time the show turns towards Negan; I think the Carol and Daryl/Dwight episodes were not so surprisingly much better - wasn't proving the critics right about a show I think is so often unfairly dismissed. Because so much of it is just lousy right now.

Unfortunately there is always going to be a major element of the audience to cater to which reads and loves those fucking comics and Negan, and I doubt AMC or Kirkman are going to want to back down on servicing them.

Edited November 16, 2016 by jsbt

[jsbt]

11 hours ago, Timetoread said:

The point is that it is not okay for some strange adult to say "If you tell your parents what you saw me do, I will kill you."  to any child.  Period.  

And if Carol had cultivated Sam's curiosity in a better way, and taught him instead of frightening him, he might be alive today. I'm sure she knows that now.