S03.E08: No More Blood

[darkestboy]

That episode was certainly full on, wasn't it?

Connor/Oliver, their second break up really got so nasty, even if they did raise some points about each other.

I'm glad Connor's alive but him sleeping with Thomas, that was cold and spiteful, even for him.

Asher just had to pick up the phone to Michaela's mother. At least we're gonna find out why Michaela doesn't like her mother that much.

The Wes/Laurel/Frank scenes were actually done pretty well, though I felt bad for Meggy and I think things have just gotten worse with the Mahoney case to be honest.

Simon managed to annoy with one little scene. I do like that Annalise and Hargorve are sort of becoming friends now.

The scenes with Frank, Annalise and Bonnie at the end were brilliant though.

The body is either Frank or Nate now, no doubt about it, 8/10

[Bwill3133]

I really thought Frank was going to shoot himself. That was intense. Then from the hospital scene to Connor in bed with Thomas. I was like "WHOO,  Connor is alive even he is revenge sexing with this guy!" That's all I really cared about. Oliver and Connor are not working right now and I'm glad they broke up. 

Asher and Michaela have become my favorite too. That robe is just a community outfit now. Lol. I'm interested to see what the story is with her mom. 

I love the addition of Luna Velez to the show as President Hargrove. As a New York Undercover fan back in the day I'm glad to see her. Annalise might actually make friends she can't control! Or totally control I guess. 

[Happytobehere]

8 minutes ago, Bwill3133 said:

 

I love the addition of Luna Velez to the show as President Hargrove. As a New York Undercover fan back in the day I'm glad to see her. Annalise might actually make friends she can't control! Or totally control I guess. 

Lauren Valez 

[Nanrad]

2 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

Lauren Valez 

Actually, I think she is going by Luna now.

[Happytobehere]

3 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Actually, I think she is going by Luna now.

Really.  Interesting change given her decades of being known as Lauren.  Wonder what prompted the name change.

[Tiger]

Yup, she's been credited as "Luna" on this show, and is the first billed guest.

[Nanrad]

I knew I recognized her, but I couldn't spot her name. lol. For a moment, I thought she was Kim Fields. 

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Thank you, I like Conner, I

The fact that most discussion surrounding Conner is based on Colivier, shows how the writers have badly treated Conner as a character on his own, and this is one of the reasons I think, Oliver should not have lasted beyond the first season. they should have waited a bit before giving him a permanent love interest.

I still don't trust Oliver, he is way too interested in what is going on with the Keaton 5

 

For me it's more of an indication as to the character has been developed. Someone mentioned up thread that we don't know much about his background. The only info we have is that he dates Michaela's ex., his mom & sister accept that he's gay and he has a somewhat privileged background. Everthing else we have to infer.  

I think most of the recent discussion is based on Coliver because of the fight they had this week.  I don't blame Oliver for being curious.  Connor & the K5 repeatedly asked him to hack for them. A one hack job I can him shrug his shoulders & move on,  but after repeated hack jobs & the rest of the K5 asking for his help,  it's only natural to be curious. Especially since all he sees are the court wins as a result.

I don't dislike any of the characters. In fact the only character I've ever disliked on this show was Rebecca.  I've always viewed this show as a show featuring anti-heroes.  I fully expected everyone to be messy & complicated.

[dezi]

6 hours ago, Milaxx said:

But Connor did. He said as much when he drunkenly cried to that girl at the bar who told him to try bringing her flowers.  

That sounds about right. He also blames himself for Oliver's HIV status. Connor clearly has self-loathing issues, but that doesn't make either of those things true.

Quote

I think last argument completely articulated what's wrong with the relationship. Connor's continual lies make Oliver feel like he doesn't really know the person he's with. Connor treats him like this special refuge to hide away from the awfulness of his like with AK. Connor is damaged but instead of getting offended by Oliver pointing that out he needs to deal with it.  Neither is more right or wrong here, neither is better or worse. The only slight upper hand I see is that Oliver can verbalize the issues better.

Oliver is damaged too, but Connor doesn't feel the need to throw Oliver's shortcomings in his face at every turn. If Connor is treating him like a special refuge, what is it called when Oliver runs to him for validation after being rejected? I think they are both responsible for the dysfunction but Oliver is so mean-spirited. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

I took it as a given that Laurel and Frank did sleep together.

Me too. I just figured she lied to Wes about nothing happening between her and Frank.

[J.D.]

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

 I've always viewed this show as a show featuring anti-heroes.  I fully expected everyone to be messy & complicated.

This ^^^^^ exactly!  I don't know why some of the viewers are always trying to FIX the characters of their complicated messiness.  It's like they don't know what show they're watching.  The complicated messiness is what makes things interesting.   :D

[RedheadZombie]

10 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Thank you, I like Conner, I really do, but, he's been very disrespectful to Michaela on this show, and as much as I love and enjoy his dynamic with Michaela and Asher, the show has never shown us why she would be friends with him, I still don't get why she can't be friends with Laurel.

The fact that most discussion surrounding Conner is based on Colivier, shows how the writers have badly treated Conner as a character on his own, and this is one of the reasons I think, Oliver should not have lasted beyond the first season. they should have waited a bit before giving him a permanent love interest.

I still don't trust Oliver, he is way too interested in what is going on with the Keaton gang.

As much as I love the keaton five, the heart of this show to me is Annalise, Bonnie and Frank and I don't want any of them to die. Please let it be Nate.

I still think Laurel might be the one who ends up dieing, the whole love triangle with Wes and Frank and the baby drama plays to me like they are setting up her exit. Not just her, I don't think anyone is safe, the real mystery might not even be who is under the sheet.

 

I like Connor much more than Oliver.  I've never bought in to Oliver's character because I think the actor is sweet, but the worst actor (by far) on the show.  I like Connor's friendship with Michaela, but I wish he would be as supportive of her.  I respect that Michaela is truly friends with both of them, and tries hard to not take sides.  That's a delicate balancing act. 

Michaela can't be friends with Laurel because women are always portrayed as competetive and at odds with each other.   Even Annalise doesn't truly have a woman she treats well other than Eve.  And perhaps my problem with Michaela lays in how she treats Laurel.   Laurel is my favorite K5, and Michaela has always made it known that she feels morally superior to Laurel.  And maybe that's why I view her as a snob.  

I'm also fascinated with that dysfunctional triangle of Annalise, Bonnie, and Frank.  What a shame it would be to kill off Frank to keep Nate.  Nate is nothing but eye candy on this show.      I imagine he started the relationship with the ADA because part B of the season will be her investigating "the love of her life"'s death.   At least that's what I'm hoping.   Finger's crossed. 

[Michel]

13 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I still don't get why she can't be friends with Laurel.

Michaela hasn't liked or trusted Laurel since the incident with her engagement ring, which occurred during the cover-up of Sam's murder back in season one.  She thought she'd lost it with the pieces of Sam's body, but Laurel had found and held onto it to keep her in line with them.  Michaela was not happy about that.

[Milaxx]

8 hours ago, dezi said:

That sounds about right. He also blames himself for Oliver's HIV status. Connor clearly has self-loathing issues, but that doesn't make either of those things true.

Oliver is damaged too, but Connor doesn't feel the need to throw Oliver's shortcomings in his face at every turn. If Connor is treating him like a special refuge, what is it called when Oliver runs to him for validation after being rejected? I think they are both responsible for the dysfunction but Oliver is so mean - spirited.

But it does mean both parties considered themselves in enough of a relationship that Connor's actions were considered cheating by both parties.

As for throwing it in his face, they were having a fight. Oliver brought up issues he has been trying to discuss with Connor that Connor refuse to discuss.  Yeah Oliver was wrong to run to Connor after Thomas rejected him.  I don't think practically begging the person you love to be honest with you is mean spirited. Oliver is right, Connor is damaged.  We as the viewing audience know why but Oliver doesn't . Instead of working things out Connor storms off and has revenge sex Thomas.  Once again there's plenty of blame to go around here.

[Milaxx]

I think the way their friendship is now makes sense. They are all from  really various backgrounds. If it wasn't for Sam's murder they'd likely not be friends at all. But as push and pull as they are Michaela and Connor actually make sense . They both put on an air of being much more put together than they actually are. Wes & Laurel also make sense as friends. They are both more quiet and introspective, and both have dramatic childhoods. Asher's the real wild card here. Murderous acts aside being around the K5 has expanded his worldview and is helping him grown & mature.

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Me too. I just figured she lied to Wes about nothing happening between her and Frank.

It will be interesting to see if that's really the case. I never thought she slept with Frank, but a lot of folks seem to think so.

[rubyred]

Someone mentioned upthread that Anna, Bonnie & Frank are the heart of the show for them, more than the K5, which got me thinking -- Anna and the K5 are the heart of the show for me. While fascinating, I don't think I could take an hour of the Anna/Bonnie/Frank circle jerk of dysfunction and still regard it as entertainment.

But I have to admit, I want to know WHY. Why do Frank & Bonnie love Anna so much. I get that she helped them out of some fucked up situations in their lives, but their willingness ride or die for her is so beyond anything. It's like they've imprinted like baby ducks and it's WEIRD.

[Milaxx]

17 minutes ago, rubyred said:

It's like they've imprinted like baby ducks and it's WEIRD.

Perfect analogy. Oddly enough you can see the same thing starting to happen with the K5. I'm thinking about how they reacted to Simon talking about Annalise. They all turned on him immediately. 

[helenamonster]

On 11/11/2016 at 3:47 PM, Eolivet said:

Either that or it's Frank (exactly what the narrative has been pointing to all along), and somebody shoots him (Laurel??? Wouldn't that be a doozy?) and Annalise sets the fire to cover it up. And it turns out Laurel and Frank did sleep together and it's his baby, which is the wrench in her and Wes' future (other than him turning turncoat).

I like this scenario. I'm with the team that wants every main character (except Annalise) to murder someone with their own hands eventually, and they haven't racked up another tally in that regard since Asher killed Sinclair.

On 11/11/2016 at 5:12 PM, Michel said:

And he wasn't even failing then!  He only started failing this season.

He actually was ranked 96th at the time he applied to Stanford. Idk how many students Middleton has (it's supposed to be based off of Penn Law, which has 242 enrolled students for the Class of 2019, according to their website), but that's not good and the odds of Stanford accepting a transfer with such a low ranking are...slim. Unless he wrote a hell of an admissions essay about why his ranking is so low.

On 11/12/2016 at 0:17 AM, Milaxx said:

Connor is lying so that Oliver doesn't find out about Sam and to a lessor extent Rebecca. It's the cover up of those 2 murders that have the K5 going all hush, hush secretive and it's a huge part of his life. That's not protecting Oliver, that's protecting the K5.  Oliver committing cyber theft was how they met in the first place and Connor initiated that. How can you trust someone who is clearly hiding a huge part of his life from you "for your protection"?  Oliver is a grown up, not some damsel in distress to be kept locked safely away and Connor isn't a knght in shining armor. Oliver isn't perfect and he did a really crappy thing, but Connor is so desperate to preserve some image of saint Oliver he forgives it? That's not healthy. Come clean or break it off.

Connor doesn't know about Rebecca. The K5 suspect she's dead, but don't know for certain. She was even considered a possibility in the mystery of who put up the Annalise flyers.

On 11/12/2016 at 8:38 AM, Grace19 said:

Thank you, I like Conner, I really do, but, he's been very disrespectful to Michaela on this show, and as much as I love and enjoy his dynamic with Michaela and Asher, the show has never shown us why she would be friends with him, I still don't get why she can't be friends with Laurel.

Michaela doesn't trust Laurel, and for good reason. I love Laurel, but she's shady as hell.

Someone else mentioned Michaela feeling "superior" to Laurel and while I don't agree with that exactly, I think there is a specific competitiveness between them that's unrelated to their gender. Michaela is obviously smart and works extremely hard (pre-law and pre-med? who does that?) and is very confident in her abilities, but Laurel's intelligence is much more...insidious. She uses her wallflower status to her advantage and has shown to be quite adept at manipulating things behind the scenes. A few weeks ago we were all talking about what sticky fingers Michaela appears to have, and she always gets caught or loses control of the situation. Laurel had Michaela's ring for months and no one even suspected it a little bit. And I think that freaks Michaela out both in terms of her ability to trust Laurel, which she kinda needs to do with the sort of situations the K5 get involved in, and in terms of her competitive streak: if Laurel is ever going to best her at anything, she likely won't see it coming.

8 hours ago, rubyred said:

But I have to admit, I want to know WHY. Why do Frank & Bonnie love Anna so much. I get that she helped them out of some fucked up situations in their lives, but their willingness ride or die for her is so beyond anything. It's like they've imprinted like baby ducks and it's WEIRD.

I think Frank's loyalty comes out of guilt. In the flashbacks before the accident that killed Sam Jr., he seemed to be fond of Annalise but not willing to bend over for her at the slightest whim. I mean, he did take that money knowing that Mahoney was going to sabotage her somehow. But then Sam Jr. died and that clearly fucked with him. Annalise had helped him out and that was how he repaid her...undying loyalty, especially from someone who made no effort to be released from jail after trying to kill his father, makes sense, imo.

The Bonnie and Annalise story remains to be told, I think. There's something in their dynamic, as well as their triangular dynamic with Sam, that I think will come to light eventually.

To go back to discussing the viewer discretion advised thing...like I said before, I know that that last scene with Frank, Bonnie, and Annalise could be triggering for people. But what is the point of the warning if you don't know what it's warning you of? I spent the episode on pins and needles waiting for Frank to kill a child. Not to mention that there's a lot of things on this show that could be triggering for different people. Annalise giving birth to a stillborn. The video of Bonnie's father molesting her (we didn't see anything, obviously, but the implication was horrifying). Asher's dad hanging himself. Pax throwing himself out the window (we literally heard the thud as he hit the ground). This is an intense show where bad, oftentimes gory and gruesome things consistently happen to people. It's very existence should be a blanket content warning.

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, helenamonster said:

On 11/12/2016 at 0:17 AM, Milaxx said:

Connor is lying so that Oliver doesn't find out about Sam and to a lessor extent Rebecca. It's the cover up of those 2 murders that have the K5 going all hush, hush secretive and it's a huge part of his life. That's not protecting Oliver, that's protecting the K5.  Oliver committing cyber theft was how they met in the first place and Connor initiated that. How can you trust someone who is clearly hiding a huge part of his life from you "for your protection"?  Oliver is a grown up, not some damsel in distress to be kept locked safely away and Connor isn't a knght in shining armor. Oliver isn't perfect and he did a really crappy thing, but Connor is so desperate to preserve some image of saint Oliver he forgives it? That's not healthy. Come clean or break it off.

Connor doesn't know about Rebecca. The K5 suspect she's dead, but don't know for certain. She was even considered a possibility in the mystery of who put up the Annalise flyers.

I wasn't very clear. I know Connor doesn't  Rebecca is dead. I meant the whole kidnapping thing, but point taken.

7 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Michaela is obviously smart and works extremely hard (pre-law and pre-med? who does that?) 

I worked in hospitals for a large part of my career. You would be surprised how many people do that. Type A personalities are very ambitious. I also find it interesting that the show is based on Penn law, but they use Philadelphia University's campus. (I have no idea if they even have a law school, but I doubt it, my guess is Penn wouldn't give them permission to film exteriors). 

7 hours ago, helenamonster said:

To go back to discussing the viewer discretion advised thing

I think it's a combo of the violence, implied violence and Connor/Thomas blowjob. That sex scene was pretty bold for network tv. So maybe the purpose of the warning was saying it's a hella lot of *really* adult stuff happening here. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Milaxx

[St. Claire]

On 11/11/2016 at 6:23 PM, Tiger said:

ABC's S&P and the FCC has let this show get away with a lot, but I dont think theybd allowed to have Frank kill himself with a gun to his throat on air, even with Frank out of camera and having blood splatter on Annalise.

Notorious is also on ABC, and they had an episode a few weeks ago in which a character is seen with the gun to his head or throat, followed by a cutaway to a more prominent character, who was then shown getting splattered. So, it could happen. 

[LydiaMoon1]

12 hours ago, helenamonster said:

But I have to admit, I want to know WHY. Why do Frank & Bonnie love Anna so much. I get that she helped them out of some fucked up situations in their lives, but their willingness ride or die for her is so beyond anything. It's like they've imprinted like baby ducks and it's WEIRD.

I'm betting it's because of Sam.  Sam is the common denominator of everything. This is why this show owes us a at least one episode all about Sam.  Someone mentioned in the thread of a previous episode how Sam basically had a collection of dysfunctional people that he used. Was this by happenstance or by design?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited November 14, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Frank's Up In Everybody's Business On How To Get Away With Murder

Seriously: if he shows up anywhere near you, just run the other way.

[SunnyBeBe]

I find it rather amusing that with everything that is going on, Annalise volunteers to take on a CONTESTED child custody case! lol  Man, it doesn't get much uglier than that.  She must not have ever had one before.  They are brutal in more ways than one.   No doubt, she'll have to get or create dirt on the father.  Is this storyline for this or next season?

[Tiger]

23 hours ago, St. Claire said:

Notorious is also on ABC, and they had an episode a few weeks ago in which a character is seen with the gun to his head or throat, followed by a cutaway to a more prominent character, who was then shown getting splattered. So, it could happen. 

Dont watch that show, but last night's Conviction has an on-air suicide too.  So I guess the warning really was for Connor sucking dick.

ETA: which at this point into the show, if you need to be warned about a dude giving another dude head and/or find that disturbing, then you clearly havent been paying attention.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Tiger

[maddie965]

Am I the only one who finds the "Frank killed my baby" narrative incredibly contrived? I mean, his actions led to someone deciding to crash on Annalise's car, and that killed the baby. I would argue that Mahoney killed that baby, unintentionally or not. He is responsible. Frank made a mistake ,  but in no way he's the murderer  here (although  he is responsible for other crimes). So for Annalise to shout that he killed her baby and that he should kill himself to atone for it seems like a gross exaggeration . She should be mad for all the lies and betrayal. But egging him to kill himself? Ouch! My take: she feels guilty (because tsking the Mahoney case led to the death of his baby) and is transfering all her guilt to Frank. And he's taking it because, well, he's Frank. 

I so hope he lives. I need more Frank & Bonnie in my life.

About Connor: the more damaged, the better. I just love him.

Edited November 15, 2016 by maddie965

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

I am glad that Connor is alive. Oliver nailed him. I am glad that Olli sees the lies and dysfunction in Connor's so called "love." He has been using Oliver as an emotional crutch. If Connor had not needed him to keep from drowning emotionally after Sam's death, he likely would not have gotten seriously involved with Olli. 

I disagree with that because Oliver and Connor were serious before the murder happened or at least they were on their way to getting there. They were broken up at the time because Oliver found out about Pax and ended things. And Connor tried getting back together with him, including the scene when the guy who was Oliver's friend (maybe more, it was sort of vague) came to the door and blasted Connor. I won't deny that Connor sees Oliver as better than him and maybe as this "one good and decent thing in my life" because of all the horrible things he's been an accessory to but I disagree that his love and feelings for Oliver has only been about Sam's death and that Oliver was only a crutch to him. 

Quote

I don't know...Oliver might be feeling left out, but I have a strong feeling that when shit hit the fan he would have turned around and resented Connor for implicating him even minimally. Look at the way the K5 (6?) lash out at Annalise and blame her for everything, including choices they made on their own. It's very possible that Ollie would have turned on Connor and blamed him if he ever ended up with his back against the wall. 

And let's not forget his reaction when Laurel tested him last season, exactly because Connor was considering telling him the truth. She told him one small thing and he immediately started freaking out about them having to call the cops, until Laurel said she was joking. Which incidentally is what further convinced Connor about going to Stanford, which Oliver called and declined for him and deleted the email.

Frankly, I'll be honest, I've never loved Connor and Oliver. I didn't mind them but I really didn't care if it ended and frankly groaned when I heard the actor playing Oliver was made a regular. I knew exactly the mess it would become. Supporting characters people love rarely ever continue to be loved when their screentime increases. I just frankly don't care about or buy Connor and Oliver any more than I do any of the pairings on this show. 

Which is probably why I'm in the minority of being fine with Laurel and Wes and don't find it hard to believe. I feel like the writers have always fast tracked these relationships. Shall we bring up the clusterfuck that was Wes and Rebecca? To this day, does anyone understand why this guy got so into this rude, smarmy bitch as quickly as he did, who he later damn near risked almost everything for? And even Connor and Oliver was a little unrealistic in how quickly Connor seemed to go from a manwhore who was happy in his manwhoring to having real feelings for Oliver. And I didn't buy Frank and Laurel in Season 1 either. They had some great scenes in Season 2 and I found them more intriguing but pfft...whatever. And Annalise is a nut who has used as much as she has loved everyone she's been with - Nate, Eve, probably even Sam even if he was a murderer himself. And then there's Asher and Michaela. Yeah okay, sure...

So honestly, after all that, it's not hard for me to buy Wes and Laurel since as I said before, the lines with the K5 were drawn from the first season and that includes Laurel and Wes being on one side. Laurel has always been the one to blindly defend and support Wes. Hell the other K5 still think she shot Annalise because she didn't want them to have another reason to be mad at Wes. They've always had a strong bond. Yes, I get that some don't see passion and physical chemistry and that's fine, it's subjective but I don't find it a stretch to believe those two are together and do love each other. 

Quote

Right. You would think that Oliver committed some major crime from some of these comments. He is practically a saint to compared to everyone else on this show. Also, not only did Oliver admit what he did soon after, Connor never had a shot of going Stanford with failing grades so the outrage is so over the top.

Putting aside that Connor did get in as stated by others and Oliver deleted the email and then called the school, pretending to be Connor and turned down the offer, this is not about those actions making him as bad as the murdering, lying, aiding and abetting K5. Oliver's actions are being judged in the context of his and Connor's relationship. Forget what we know Connor's been involved with, because Oliver doesn't. 

So with knowledge of nothing other than Connor keeps things about his work from him, Oliver ruins a very big educational opportunity for Connor, then when Connor forgives him, breaks up with Connor over it because Connor doing so made him, Oliver realize that Connor must have some major fucked up lies he's keeping. Okay fair enough, because that's actually true. So his solution after that is to go work for the woman who is a big part of the work that Connor clearly has a lot of secrets about and has repeatedly told Oliver is not a good idea to work for. 

So he breaks up with Connor but then Connor can't escape him since he's now in his professional life. Then he flirts in front of Connor and immediately accuses Connor of sabotaging him when in truth the guy was a racist fuck who wasn't interested in him. Then he lectures Connor about not flaunting his hookups in his face because Connor's humpr account keeps blowing up. Truth is, he was probably resentful because it likely played into his constant self esteem issues that Connor's too hot for him. Then he meets a guy who freaks out when he tells him he's HIV Positive and runs straight to Connor who he knows won't push him away because he loves him and it wasn't his decision to break up. Oliver has been an inconsiderate, whiny and selfish shit to Connor this season and THAT'S why people like myself cannot stand him and would love for Connor to move on (but not Thomas. The guy's kind of annoying). 

Edited November 16, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[possibilities]

On 11/12/2016 at 11:58 PM, Milaxx said:

Asher's the real wild card here. Murderous acts aside being around the K5 has expanded his worldview and is helping him grown & mature.

I think the same is true of Frank, and they are the two who Bonnie has been most connected to. I guess she has a type.

Also: "Murderous acts aside..." is one hell of a disclaimer, but on this show, it fits.

I assumed the warning was because of The Gay Sex Stuff.

Thomas doesn't "come inside" on the first date with anyone he's seriously interested in, so no danger of Connor and Thomas having a serious relationship. That's one thing we don't have to worry about, at least.

[TobinAlbers]

"Munchies?"

"Menopause"

The look on the cashier's face when she said that made me chuckle.

Props to Asher for staying behind to help Wes when Michaela and Connor walked. Props to Bonnie for telling Asher to bail before even more crap hit the fan.

Nate is dumb as hell to ever listen or believe anyone or do ANYTHING for anyone from Annalise's office.

Sylvia Mahoney is gonna be that beast of a momma that Annalise was telling Hargoves to be. They framed her only son for her husband's murder? She's gonna come gunning for them.

Frank is a sociopath but he's a fine looking, intense, remorseful one.

The show has done a great job with building the anticipation of Frank and Annalise's confrontation since we learned of his involvement in her son's death.  'Who is Under the Sheet?' was the promotional hook, but the emotional lure has been WTH is gonna happen when Frank and Annalise meet again? And the reason it works is because they made Frank more than just the murderous muscle and the actor has sold every beat of it.

It's interesting how Sam is the master manipulator that everyone can blame their actions on even when he's now dead.  Annalise is actually just as good a manipulator as Sam was (better even) as she has everyone taking her abusive crap and then still trying to protect her and get back in her good graces. Bonnie is telling Frank not to kill himself so that Annalise doesn't doesn't; Frank is willing to kill himself to give Annalise peace. They're all puppets that serve at her pleasure. In Sam's case he used psychological games, but Annalise mixes it up with emotional and psychological and knows she's doing it even as she loathes others doing it.  VD makes Annalise compelling but damn if she ain't a toxic woman.

[helenamonster]

14 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

It's interesting how Sam is the master manipulator that everyone can blame their actions on even when he's now dead.  Annalise is actually just as good a manipulator as Sam was (better even) as she has everyone taking her abusive crap and then still trying to protect her and get back in her good graces. Bonnie is telling Frank not to kill himself so that Annalise doesn't doesn't; Frank is willing to kill himself to give Annalise peace. They're all puppets that serve at her pleasure. In Sam's case he used psychological games, but Annalise mixes it up with emotional and psychological and knows she's doing it even as she loathes others doing it.  VD makes Annalise compelling but damn if she ain't a toxic woman.

I sort of love how Sam's ghost continues to hang over everything on the show, but I wonder if that will change after the house is gone.

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, doram said:

Annalisse blamed Frank not only for the baby's death, but also for the audacity of keeping it from her and staying her life for ten years with that secret. 

THIS^^^ is the kicker.  As you mention there's a lot to it but for AK this is her this is what it boils down to.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Milaxx

[Delphi]

I don't understand the idea that either you're a murderer or you're destined for sainthood.   Oliver doing shady shit to Connor can't be justified by going,  "oh,  well Oliver has never dismembered a corpse before,  so clearly Connor is at fault."

Edited November 16, 2016 by Delphi

[starri]

On 11/14/2016 at 8:54 AM, Milaxx said:

That sex scene was pretty bold for network tv.

This is going to get very blue, very quickly, and I apologize but is that any more graphic than a lot of what we've already seen?  In the pilot, we not only saw Nate face-first in Annalise's nethers, we also got a very clear set-up for Connor rimming Oliver.  And that's not even counting the four-couple sex scene from last season where Frank made a comment about Laurel  tasting like his pasta sauce (and he was clearly indicating that this was in a region below her waist), we saw Caleb giving Michaela her first orgasm, and more or less see Connor and Oliver fellating each other.

Honestly, if this show was on HBO or Netflix, I wouldn't be surprised if there was actual nudity.

For the speculation about Michaela's finances, she never did give Aiden his ring back after Laurel returned it, no?

[Milaxx]

Just now, starri said:

This is going to get very blue, very quickly, and I apologize but is that any more graphic than a lot of what we've already seen?  In the pilot, we not only saw Nate face-first in Annalise's nethers, we also got a very clear set-up for Connor rimming Oliver.  And that's not even counting the four-couple sex scene from last season where Frank made a comment about Laurel  tasting like his pasta sauce (and he was clearly indicating that this was in a region below her waist), we saw Caleb giving Michaela her first orgasm, and more or less see Connor and Oliver fellating each other.

Honestly, if this show was on HBO or Netflix, I wouldn't be surprised if there was actual nudity.

For the speculation about Michaela's finances, she never did give Aiden his ring back after Laurel returned it, no?

The graphic sex (for network tv) is why I think HTGAWM has a 10pm time slot. If it was cable we would  see butts & tits, maybe a peen or 2.

Michaela pawned the ring in AC

[Keepitmoving]

26 minutes ago, starri said:

 

For the speculation about Michaela's finances, she never did give Aiden his ring back after Laurel returned it, no?

She pawned it and then took the money to replace the money she stole and loss gambling from that sick serial murder/rapist guy's bag. I think that was his money can't remember where he got it from though? But I think he had money, in a brown leather bag, that client that Anna slapped is who I'm referring to. Not to mention, after she pawned the ring for as hard up and let's not forget "cold" as she is supposed to be, she took a thousand of that money and stuck it in that homeless guy's jacket and told Asher that it was blood money. Because his mouth was hanging open that she gave it to the homeless guy when he, Asher, said that he could have used it, LOL.  Nope, I don't think she's living off the money she got from that ring. Not to mention, she was dressing and living that way before pawning the ring. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[J.D.]

18 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

peen

LOL..... :D

[maddie965]

13 hours ago, doram said:

The whole thing doesn't bear too much close scrutiny, really. But I think what we're supposed to take from last episode's scene is that Annalisse and Frank are damaged people with deep-rooted pyschological issues and they are not - cannot, perhaps - react rationally or normally to that situation. So it's perfectly in character for Frank to feel directly and solely responsible for her baby's death and it's perfectly in character for Annalisse to agree with him. 

You're right, of course. Those are very damaged, messed up people, living very messed up relationships. Which is why Bonnie is right when she says Frank can't kill himself. "She would never survive this. I would never survive this." None of them can't survive without the other two. They're so fucked up, I love it.

[Michel]

11 hours ago, maddie965 said:

You're right, of course. Those are very damaged, messed up people, living very messed up relationships. Which is why Bonnie is right when she says Frank can't kill himself. "She would never survive this. I would never survive this." None of them can't survive without the other two. They're so fucked up, I love it.

This is actually the reason I think it could be Frank under the sheet.  Despite how much she claims to hate him now, Annalise really doesn't.  Bonnie knows that and knows that she won't survive Frank's death mentally.  It could totally explain Annalise reacting the way she way she reacted to the body.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Michel

[Aquarius97]

What if the dead body is Wes, but is not really dead? I mean, we don't know yet the deal with the DA, so Wes might enter into witness protection, making the fire a cover-up. That would explain why Laurel ask about Wes when she wakes up at the hospital, because she knew that Wes was in the house.

It's impossible that Wes's scene in 3x07 is after the fire because at the time of the fire, he's already suppoused to have signed the deal which put Analise into jail.

[Keepitmoving]

I'm thinking it's too easy to be Frank now. He's got gun pointed to his head and they are still advertising this week's show as if there is still some mystery as to who's under the sheet. So I'm thinking it can't be that obvious, which would be Frank based on how this episode ended.  If it's Frank then seriously, why waste my time pretending it's some mystery in your ad. especially when we last left off the guy had  gun at his head and two other characters were barking at him, one telling him to blow his head off.  It's got to be someone else to live up to the kick this show is trying to sell with this "who's under the sheet" suspense. I mean at this point, if it is Frank, well, I'm going to be like, that's about right, moving on. I don't know who it is but it better be someone other than Frank at this point. 

Maybe it's Atwood, based on that sneak peak in the other thread, it could be her because she's appears to have come undone and may need to be put out of her misery. I think it's her and Anna is fake crying.  I mean the crew could have taken a liking to the actress and will miss her but none of the characters on the show would miss her. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[dgpolo]

1 minute ago, Keepitmoving said:

I'm thinking it's too easy to be Frank now. He's got gun pointed to his head and they are still advertising this week's show as if there is still some mystery as to who's under the sheet.

Yes, this is why I still believe Wes, Connor, Nate and Frank are all still viable options, having a countdown that leaves no suspense for your climactic episode makes no sense. There has to be a twist or it's all too dumb for words.

[Keepitmoving]

16 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Yes, this is why I still believe Wes, Connor, Nate and Frank are all still viable options, having a countdown that leaves no suspense for your climactic episode makes no sense. There has to be a twist or it's all too dumb for words.

Yes, and please HTGAWM, season three is too soon to start getting dumb. Keep, keeping up the good work.

I don't think it's Nate, because I could have sworn that, that was him in the preview setting a car on fire, it looked like him. Now whose car is the question, because it looked like he was burning evidence. Nate won't stop trying to help Anna clean up, I don't think he's going anywhere Anna and Bonnie need at least on familiar faced clean up guy around. Anna also needs someone to "tickle" her from time to time, someone who just can't get her messy ass out of his/her hair, meanwhile we all sit back and say WTF are they still putting up with her. Yeah, I think Nate is going to hang around for this role with all his eye candy as the cherry on top. I think that sneak peek with Mary J. Blige makes me think it's Atwood. I don't see how much use she is for the long term, because I don't see Anna fighting over some man, it's not happening. So I'm going with Atwood, she's going nuts, she's under that sheet, and Anna is faking it as she does so well. Except the exhaustion she clearly is under when we see her and Bonnie in that jail cell, that's real.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[starri]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

So I'm going with Atwood, she's going nuts, she's under that sheet, and Anna is faking it as she does so well. Except the exhaustion she clearly is under when we see her and Bonnie in that jail cell, that's real.

Didn't the news report in one of the flashforwards say the body was male?

[Milaxx]

Yes it said the body of an unidentified male was found.

[Keepitmoving]

23 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Yes it said the body of an unidentified male was found.

Oh, that's right, I give up then, all will be revealed soon enough.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[RedheadZombie]

On November 15, 2016 at 3:22 PM, maddie965 said:

Am I the only one who finds the "Frank killed my baby" narrative incredibly contrived? I mean, his actions led to someone deciding to crash on Annalise's car, and that killed the baby. I would argue that Mahoney killed that baby, unintentionally or not. He is responsible. Frank made a mistake ,  but in no way he's the murderer  here (although  he is responsible for other crimes). So for Annalise to shout that he killed her baby and that he should kill himself to atone for it seems like a gross exaggeration . She should be mad for all the lies and betrayal. But egging him to kill himself? Ouch! My take: she feels guilty (because tsking the Mahoney case led to the death of his baby) and is transfering all her guilt to Frank. And he's taking it because, well, he's Frank. 

I so hope he lives. I need more Frank & Bonnie in my life.

I agree.  And it's being repeated here at times - Frank murdered her baby!!

[maddie965]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I agree.  And it's being repeated here at times - Frank murdered her baby!!

I think that, somehow, putting all the blame on Frank makes Annalise feel better - because she can lie to herself and imagine her life would have been so much happier if she had known the truth. Suddenly, her losing the baby, fighting with Sam, living a miserable life, all of that is Frank's fault.

But of course that's a fleeting fantasy created by her delusional mind. If he dies, she'll hate herself (and her life) even more...

Edited November 18, 2016 by maddie965

[Milaxx]

It's partially true though. If Frank had not planted that bug the Mahoney's would not have known she was going to tell the DA about Rose & the Mahoney's, and they in turn would not have t boned her car. It's a sad chain of events that Frank had a key part in .

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Despite how much she claims to hate him now, Annalise really doesn't.  Bonnie knows that and knows that she won't survive Frank's death mentally. 

Annalise had a scene with Wes where he accused her of wanting to spare Frank. She vehemently denied it, which of course made it look like Wes was right. I think Annalise loves Frank and Bonnie, but she is incapable of having a relationship where she is not in control at all times. She'll take Frank back under the right circumstances (as we saw in this very episode, she had him track down Charles Mahoney's alibi witness), but I don't think she would admit it.