S06.E08: I'll Be Your Mirror

[tri4335]

2 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Many things are wrong with this show, and this episode, and Henry, but I don't think movies like "The Breakfast Club" are one of them. "Pitch Perfect" has been wildly successful, including among the young'uns (e.g., Teen Choice Awards). I absolutely think it would have led to a surge in kids and teens watching and appreciating "The Breakfast Club" at least, and perhaps other similar movies.

And yes, we did have dances in my middle school (for the 7th and 8th graders; 5th and 6th grade got rollerskating) for which clothes like that would have been appropriate. Not every dance, but about two a year (winter and end of year).

Not that I think the show is still considering Henry only 12. Yes, I know that's what he "should" be, but there's no fooling anyone at this point given the actor's growth spurt/voice. And in yesterday's episode, he had some line about how "he should finish high school first". Certainly sounded like they were implying he's already in it. Henry aging 5 years while everyone else only aged 2 is not even one of the more ridiculous things about the show, and I dislike the character in the first place, so I really don't care what they do with his age.

In the same scene, he states he is in middle school, so if we say he is in eight grade and say he was red shirted as a child, the oldest he could be would be 14 possibly turning 15 in the next school year.   

When they said The Breakfast Club and Sixteen Candles, all I could think was that would be quite a bit to explain to Violet, drugs, teenage sex, depression, bullying etc. Maybe they were watching the shown on TV versions which would cut out some of the scenes.

[RadioGirl27]

Frank Capra said: "There are no rules in filmmaking. Only sins. And the cardinal sin is dullness". This is the only thing I have to say about this episode (and the whole season, really).

[Randomosity]

1 hour ago, tri4335 said:

In the same scene, he states he is in middle school, so if we say he is in eight grade and say he was red shirted as a child, the oldest he could be would be 14 possibly turning 15 in the next school year.  

Mea culpa. Further evidence of how boring the episode was, given that I couldn't stay focused longer than half a sentence.

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Except Extra Evil Regina isn't murdery either.  She wants to mother Henry.  She knocks Hook out and doesn't kill him.  She doesn't even take his heart to control him.  Of all the curses EQ could cast on Snowing, this was probably the kindest.  They can leave messages for each other and stuff.  I'm sure anyone of us could come up with something worse.  She didn't actually kill the Dragon.  Rumple wants her to kill Zelena and she is all conflicted.

In a way, that makes regular Regina look worse. The fact that the Evil Queen isn't all homicidal and is just lashing out in hate and wanting her enemies to suffer but not killing people for getting in her way or annoying her is proof that this is the evil/dark side of present-day Regina and not their old foe brought forward in time. The Evil Queen of the immediate pre-curse era would have killed them instead of just messing with them. Which suggests, then, that while she doesn't want them dead, there's a part of Regina who wants to treat them all this way, and it's her good side that holds back those impulses -- and according to her speech in the spring finale, she hates every minute of that and is miserable because she is holding back those impulses. This is all stuff that's in Regina, personified in the Evil Queen. Supposedly, this is her inner conflict, between wanting Snow and her family to suffer miserably, wanting Henry all to herself with Emma out of the picture, wanting Henry to be as dark as she is, but wanting to be part of the gang.

But then what does all this mean in terms of her reconciliation with Cora? The Evil Queen was part of her when she and Cora came to terms and Cora admitted that raising her that way wasn't right. Now she's wanting to do to Henry what Cora did to her. Does she really feel that way, deep down inside? Did that part of her not actually go through any change from her Underworld experience?

Back during the curse, the reason Regina didn't kill Emma outright but rather planned to put her under the sleeping curse was that Emma dying would kill the curse. I wonder how much of that is still true and what part of the curse it applies to. Was it just about the memory part, or would Emma's death undo Storybrooke and send everyone to the Enchanted Forest? And is that still true with this iteration of the curse?

I did like the Snow and David montage. That's the kind of thing I want to see more of in this show, seeing how magic affects everyday life in this crazy little town. You're under a curse where only one of you can stay awake at a time? Make iPhone videos to each other. It's modern life and magic living side-by-side. Also, it seemed like the montage showed at least three or four days, and they seemed to be several days into that at the start. So this one episode may have covered more time than some entire arcs have.

TV head injuries annoy me no end. It's ridiculously easy to knock someone completely unconscious, and not just dazed for a second, but out cold for long stretches of time, and then they wake up and are immediately perfectly functional. With Liam 2.0, it was one of the first times they've been moderately realistic, where he wakes up in a hospital and is kind of dazed (though he was knocked out pretty easily). We're back to TV land again here, with Hook being knocked out cold and then being up to sneaking into the vault and holding the Evil Queen at hook-point. I may fanwank and say that it wasn't being thrown through the air and landing hard that knocked him out, but rather a stunning spell of some sort, and that's why he was up and around right away.

[kili]

Quote

We're back to TV land again here, with Hook being knocked out cold and then being up to sneaking into the vault and holding the Evil Queen at hook-point.

I fanwank that Hook must have had an anti-concussion spell put on him as an infant. Perhaps by druid who was the friend of Killian's mother and who never trusted his no-good father. That's the only explanation that I can come up with for why Hook's brain is not jelly by now. I don't think anybody has been knocked out more than him. There is a reason why there is a Captain Floor ship.

[tennisgurl]

That was kind of...boring. At least there were no pointless flashbacks. 

The best part was, by far, the Snow/Charming stuff, especially the montage. That was both adorable and sad. Plus, it actually had the "technology meets magic" thing going on that I have been hoping for them to get more into. Magic sleeping curse? Iphones will make it more bearable! 

Emma and Regina were alright. And I actually thought that the Evil Queen and Henry stuff was kind of interesting. At least corrupting Henry is something actually evil. Too bad for her, Henry is the dorkiest kid ever. Seriously, Henry is a very confusing kid sometimes. He acts like a kid instead of a middle schooler so much of the time (the believe in yourself speech in NYC last year), but he has the taste of a 47 year old. I haven't forgotten the Harold and Maude from last season! I dont think its unbelievable that a kid his age would be into Brat Pack movies, but how did he get into them? In my experience, kids who are into older movies get into them because thats what they're parents showed them, and Regina has never struck me as a Breakfast Club kind of person. 

Aladdin and Jasmine...exist.

 I know I've always complained that this show has too much plot, but suddenly we have practically NO plot! This half season is slower than molasses. I mean, i`m glad we`re getting some more character stuff this season, but a little urgency or forward motion would be nice. 

[iMonrey]

It's amazing to me that even an episode without the usual flashback gimmick can be such a colossal waste of time. Regina and Emma try to trap Evil Queen, she traps them instead, they escape anyway, everything's back to square one. Belle tries to get away from Storybrooke, Rumpel stops her, nothing changes for her either. What actually happened in this episode? 

Here's a thought: if killing Regina kills the Evil Queen, or if hurting Regina hurts the Evil Queen, why don't they freeze Regina, or take away her powers, or put a spell on her - something that won't kill her but would neutralize the Evil Queen? Dumbasses.

[Rumsy4]

Put Regina on a Sleeping Curse, or threaten to, and make the EQ toe the line.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Henry Is All Grown Up And Turning Once Upon A Time Into An Annoying John Hughes Movie

This week had a lot of Afterschool Special-itis, honestly.

[kili]

Quote

I dont think its unbelievable that a kid his age would be into Brat Pack movies, but how did he get into them? In my experience, kids who are into older movies get into them because thats what they're parents showed them, and Regina has never struck me as a Breakfast Club kind of person. 

I think Storybrooke is kind of timeless. They have a jukebox in Grannies while they walk around with the latest cell phones. The nurses wear little caps on their heads from the 50s while other fashions are up to date. The front of the butcher shop looks like something out of the Andy Griffith Show while the front of Animal Shelter was quite modern looking. If you've ever looked closely at the products for sale in the general store window, most of them are ancient. The packaging is all from decades ago - many of the brands are defunct. Even the cars are all over the place with the richest guy in town driving a caddy from the last century.

So, it does not see out of place to me that many of the movies that would have been available to Henry may have been out-of-time. An odd mix of movies across the generation - a limited choice from the general store (since the public library was closed). I can also see Henry escaping into movies to escape his bizarre world. While everybody else is happy doing Snow's bird-house building exercise for the umpteenth time and seeming like it was the first time ever, Henry would feel like the odd one out. So seeking out movies featuring school kids would have seemed natural. It is those movies that taught him that he was the normal one and that the others were under a curse. If you lived in a world where everybody else lived the same day over-and-over as if it was the first time, but you did not, wouldn't you think you were the crazy one especially if your Mom was telling you you were? Movies and television would be some of the few things that would have told Henry that he wasn't crazy. I can see him spending a lot of time on them. Goodness knows his homework must have been easy - just hand in the same sheet day after day after day. If the teacher marks it, copy it.

Edited November 14, 2016 by kili

[MedievalGirl]

I liked many things about this episode.  Snow, David, baby Neil, Henry and Violet, Hook figuring out about Emma.
I figured it was the connection between Henry and his moms that made the circle mirror at Granny's rattle. 
My daughter complained about the dragon without wings flying. I said "That was just a guy, now it is a dragon in a world behind the mirrors, and you are worried about the physics of flying?" Daughter "Yes." Me "Good girl."
Why do people even let the Evil Queen monologue. 
The EQ walking in a Regina to the Charmings apartment was cool. I didn't like how she had the power to change the phone message but I loved that the walk and the flip of the hair were different. I also like how EQ seemed taken aback slightly by how everyone was reacting to what was going on. 
Do we know for sure that Aladdin gave up the Savior power? I wonder if he has some sort of power to get into Gold's and then set off the Abu monkey toy. It might not even be conscious. 

[orza]

Storybrooke was stuck in the 80s for 28 years. The available entertainment reflects that. It's no mystery why Henry likes those movies. There was probably nothing else to watch. I can buy that clothing is modern because that is a consumable that would need to be replenished on a regular basis. Some technology managed to advance to the last 80s/early 90s. It is only very recently that some people have upgraded to smart phones. Last we saw, Rumple still uses his flip phone. Cars will last for a really, really long time if they are only driven a couple of miles a day. Most cars in Storybrooke probably have less than 20,000 miles on them.

[justmythoughts]

Yeah I could buy Henry movie preferences being in the 80's and 90's because he was a kid trapped in a town where time didn't pass. As people pointed out: we can granted it by the electronics.

Great Snowing montage. My heart felt sorry for them. But not sorry for some Charming great arms scenes.

I decided to fold some clothes during EQ and Rumple scenes, to only listen and spare my eyes from that horror show. At least I was being useful.

Great Hook... Using his hook at the end with the EQ. Loved my pirate being a hero for a moment but with the strength of a bad boy. 

Great line fromthe EQ: "... Bla bla bla ... Emma and my lesser half... " someone finally acknowledges Regina and the EQ are the same!!

And what's going on with Emma's face? I know she has visions of death and shaky hands but is she in constant pain? Or JMo is constipated lately? Girl, I know the CGI was bad, but try harder to take my attention to your awesome actress talent!

[Rumsy4]

So, I kinda wasn't paying too close attention, but the idea was for Regina and Emma to position themselves so the Dragon fire would blast through the mirror I think. No idea how they knew Henry would shatter the mirror on the other side though. I guess they took it on hope or whatever. 

It was also really odd that Regina and Emma relied only on Henry to figure out that they were trapped in the mirror world. Neither of them thought of Hook or one of the Charmings. It's as though they had read the script and knew the focus of the episode was on the Swan-Mills family dynamic.

44 minutes ago, MedievalGirl said:

The EQ walking in a Regina to the Charmings apartment was cool. I didn't like how she had the power to change the phone message but I loved that the walk and the flip of the hair were different. I also like how EQ seemed taken aback slightly by how everyone was reacting to what was going on. 

I liked that too. It was odd to hear Snow speak of the EQ as a monster, when she had been BFFs with her just three days ago. They're all acting as though the EQ time-travelled from the EF past, and it makes me want to roll my eyes so hard. 

If Regina reintegrates the EQ back, she'll have both sets of memories, and it's going to be pretty awkward, especially all those gross make-out sessions with Gold. Brrrrr...

[PixiePaws1]

7 minutes ago, justmythoughts said:

But not sorry for some Charming great arms scenes.

 

And what's going on with Emma's face? I know she has visions of death and shaky hands but is she in constant pain? Or JMo is constipated lately? Girl, I know the CGI was bad, but try harder to take my attention to your awesome actress talent!

Oh yeah..i sat up very straight in my 'shallow' chair with Charming's arms on display...not going to lie!

I know Jen suffers excruciating headaches and I can feel her pain when she is in the sun or looking into bright lights without sunglasses to block the glare. I know she's an actor and should be accustomed to it...but glare, headache AND a pointless plotless scene that ultimately goes nowhere might be too much to stop the weird thing all our faces do when trying not to squint...just a thought.

[tri4335]

I have a question about the scene with Emma and Regina outside of Granny's. Did they actually say/agree that Henry was "raised"?  Because if they did, I would have to point out that no middle schooler is done being raised and I would say it is one of the most critical times in a child's life when they need more parenting! Though given how they treat Henry as if he is an adult this makes sense that they think their job is done.

[Shanna Marie]

My problem with Henry's fondness for John Hughes movies is that I have to wonder when he saw them. The Breakfast Club is rated R. I can't imagine Regina having been the kind of mother who allowed him to watch an R-rated movie before he was 10 years old, so Storybrooke being stuck in the 80s doesn't explain that. He might have seen these movies during the missing year, but during that time, he was a "normal" 11-12-year old in New York City, so he's still technically too young for the uncut versions and probably too busy being a pre-teen to be obsessing over vintage teen coming-of-age comedy-dramas. Otherwise, when would he have had the time, other than, I guess, the 6 weeks between 4A and 4B. It's the same problem with him being all into Harold and Maude. He's 13 at the most, Regina was not a permissive parent, and he's spent most of the time running around between various magical realms. Maybe he had really pretentious, artsy friends in New York?

It might have been interesting seeing Violet struggling to fit in, but have they forgotten that every kid in that school is from some storybook realm? Most of them are from the Enchanted Forest. They just might have the benefit of the cursed memory download that makes it all seem normal, but then they also have non-cursed identities, which might make things even weirder -- what if your Storybrooke identity clique was entirely different from the clique your true personality would hang with? Is anyone torn between groups like that? Just imagine the Storybrooke version of The Breakfast Club -- instead of jocks, geeks, and freaks you might have peasants and nobles, but then the Storybrooke thing mixes things up a bit. And then there are all the Untold Stories people, who are probably even more at sea than Violet is right now. They also seem to have forgotten that Henry wouldn't be fitting in any better than Violet, given that until recently, he was the only one moving up while the rest were frozen in time. Today's second graders would have been his classmates at one time. Yeah, he'd know every kid in the school, since he'd have been classmates with most of them at some point in time, but any friends he did have would mostly be years younger. (Again, they create something potentially interesting to explore and seem to be utterly oblivious to it.)

They mentioned Henry wearing his grandfather's tie to the dance, and since he was looking at them at the Charmings' place, I'm presuming they meant David, but have we ever seen David wearing a suit and tie? Why would he even own ties? I'm amusing myself with the idea that the grandfather in question is Rumple, and since Hook was there when they were picking out ties, Hook had broken into Rumple's place and swiped some ties for Henry to try -- all without Rumple having the slightest idea (and while the Greatest Thief Ever was bumbling around in the shop with a flashlight while Rumple was there).

[kili]

Quote

Regina was not a permissive parent

She was not a permissive parent, but when did that ever stop Henry?

He was stealing credit cards, hiring detective agencies and running off to Boston when he was 10. He pretty much did as he wanted that entire first year and Regina still kept leaving him alone as she went off to do evil things or visit the Sheriff.  Who in town was going to stop him from getting the movie? They won't even remember he took it the next day. If he's stealing from his teacher's purse, I'm sure he can get away with a lot (heck, the town hosted two of the best thieves in the realms in Aladdin and Will with nobody the wiser). So, seeing a movie doesn't seem like something he'd have trouble doing. He stole dynamite that first year!

[stephalex76]

Chinese dragons don't have wings... they're more like serpents with dragons heads and 4 feet.

I think the idea was Emma and Regina would try and get the Dragon into position to blast the mirror and it would break.  But that it would not have worked except that Henry hit the mirror with the hammer right before.  So coincidence... 

I quite liked this episode.  Did not pause, check email, then resume like I have much of this season.  Maybe going in with low expectations because it was an Emma-Regina episode helped.

Loved Hook helping Henry choose the tie!

[scenicbyway]

Oh no!  My favorite part of the episode was Henry and Violet!  Come On Show!

I fast forwarded through the dragon mirror world scenes, who cares!  Even the actors looked bored. I did think it was interesting that Hook had a part in the saving in the crypt because it can't be just Regina, Emma and Henry.  Thank you writers!

Belle is now handcuffed?  Really Rumple?  How will that stop your future kid from hating you?

Zelena has no purpose, she's just boarding the EQ at this point.

Snowing's situation is sad but again they've just faded into the background.

[ParadoxLost]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In a way, that makes regular Regina look worse. The fact that the Evil Queen isn't all homicidal and is just lashing out in hate and wanting her enemies to suffer but not killing people for getting in her way or annoying her is proof that this is the evil/dark side of present-day Regina and not their old foe brought forward in time. The Evil Queen of the immediate pre-curse era would have killed them instead of just messing with them. Which suggests, then, that while she doesn't want them dead, there's a part of Regina who wants to treat them all this way, and it's her good side that holds back those impulses -- and according to her speech in the spring finale, she hates every minute of that and is miserable because she is holding back those impulses. This is all stuff that's in Regina, personified in the Evil Queen. Supposedly, this is her inner conflict, between wanting Snow and her family to suffer miserably, wanting Henry all to herself with Emma out of the picture, wanting Henry to be as dark as she is, but wanting to be part of the gang.

But the thing is that pre-curse Evil Queen wouldn't have killed them either.  Pre-curse Evil Queen cursed them to mess with them and that is why Storybrooke exists.  She only flat out kills random bystanders that thwart her plans or catch her in a bad mood.  The people she knows she tortures because she sees death as an easy out for them.   She wants them to suffer like she suffers.

Because this EQ and pre-curse EQ are not really any different it means that pre-curse Evil Queen didn't struggle against her better angels. It points to the good side of Regina being completely subsumed by the evil.  Which frankly would have been an ok way to go if they went a different way with what Regina was like with the EQ cut out.  They could have made Regina sweet and light and kind and ineffectual in fighting the EQ and the lesson learned is that with both halves Regina's good can be strong enough to can balance the evil and that is the point of her internal struggles.

But instead Regina isn't that different so it means that Regina's good side just isn't that great.

This last episode, I was seriously considering whether the only difference between the two of them is Regina accepts she's can be part of the family while EQ doesn't.

[Michel]

21 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

I liked that Henry figured out what was going on because EQ told him not to slouch and that Hook was also on to her because of the way she acted when she posed as Regina coming to tell everyone they defeated the queen.  Actually everyone should have figured out it wasn't really Regina right then.

I know that, in the past, Jared's acting has been criticized, but I thought he did really well in those scenes.  I especially loved his "oh, shit!" face when the Evil Queen made her "slouching" slip-up.  He did a great job of showing that Henry had figured everything out right at that instant.

And yes, Hook realizing that something was wrong was also great.  But he did so in a less subtle way -- his suspicious faces were clearly obvious to the Evil Queen -- so of course he was subdued fairly quickly.

[Camera One]

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I would also like to point out that when Hook, Emma, Regina, and Henry were awkwardly standing around watching Snow talk to Charming, I thought dude, this is why you guys need a bigger place. Or a bedroom with a door.

Yeah, that was really weird.  It was like they didn't know how to transition from the Snow/Charming intro to the actual storyline of the week which wasn't about them.

In hindsight, there was a lot of funny business in this episode, and not of the LOL variety.  

First of all, didn't Henry say Violet stood him up twice?  That isn't explainable by Violet having difficulties fitting in with school.  She seems like a perfectly nice person, so just not showing up on dates seems out of character.  They could have come up with some other reason why Henry thought Violet wasn't that into him (I mean, there would be a multitude of reasons).  Which got me wondering... what was it like to be Henry's girlfriend?  Was he considered hot commodity, being a Prince and all?  Do the other kids know he's the Author?  Or does no one care about him?  

Next, we had Belle telling Zelena they are somewhat alike - "Because we both know what it's like to care about someone who always lets us down".  Huh?  How has Regina "always" let Zelena down since they've started "caring" about each other?  Weren't they only insta-BFF-sisters for a week or so?  In any case, how would Belle know?  

So about The Dragon... there's no magic behind the Mirror, yet he can turn into a Dragon?  So could he have done that and spit fire into a Mirror and escape?  Or did he need someone to break the other side of the Mirror?  Why didn't Emma ask him about her visions of death?  So he has zero idea how to defeat The Evil Queen, and he has zero idea how to help Snowing... what exactly can he do?  No wonder he's MIA and completely ignored by the end, eh?

So school is still happening?  Does Mary Margaret still go to work?  And does Charming do his Sheriff-ing overnight or something?  What a coup to give them so much screentime, where neither of them has any dialogue.  They keep thinking of new original ways to sideline these two.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Camera One

[Michel]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Next, we had Belle telling Zelena they are somewhat alike - "Because we both know what it's like to care about someone who always lets us down".  Huh?  How has Regina "always" let Zelena down since they've started "caring" about each other?  Weren't they only insta-BFF-sisters for a week or so?  In any case, how would Belle know?  

So about The Dragon... there's no magic behind the Mirror, yet he can turn into a Dragon?  So could he have done that and spit fire into a Mirror and escape?  Or did he need someone to break the other side of the Mirror?  Why didn't Emma ask him about her visions of death?  So he has zero idea how to defeat The Evil Queen, and he has zero idea how to help Snowing... what exactly can he do?  No wonder he's MIA and completely ignored by the end, eh?

So school is still happening?  Does Mary Margaret still go to work?  And does Charming do his Sheriff-ing overnight or something?  What a coup to give them so much screentime, where neither of them has any dialogue.  They keep thinking of new original ways to sideline these two.

I actually got what Belle was saying.  Sure, she only mentioned Regina, but Zelena has been let down by others, as well.  Rumple way back when he was her teacher, for one, and just last season, Hades.

[justmythoughts]

4 hours ago, PixiePaws1 said:

Oh yeah..i sat up very straight in my 'shallow' chair with Charming's arms on display...not going to lie!

I know Jen suffers excruciating headaches and I can feel her pain when she is in the sun or looking into bright lights without sunglasses to block the glare. I know she's an actor and should be accustomed to it...but glare, headache AND a pointless plotless scene that ultimately goes nowhere might be too much to stop the weird thing all our faces do when trying not to squint...just a thought.

Thanks for sharing the shallow chair.

About JMo's headaches... I also have migraines, they are terrible but there are some medicine you can take. Sure resting in a quiet and dark place is the best option. But she has access to good doctors, I am sure she can take some pill if the headache becomes unbearable... Or maybe A&E asked her to look as in pain... So we think Emma is 24/7 struggling with the idea of death. Which is ridiculous, she should be enjoying hervtime to be happpy, to laugh, to spend time with her loved ones...

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, orza said:

It's no mystery why Henry likes those movies.

Now that other people have weighed in on it, I do kind of get why Henry would have pop culture taste a few years out of step with other kids his age. I actually really wish they dealt with that more with his character, and how being the one person in town aging normally in a town stuck in time affected him. I think I would understand him and his issues a lot more, and it would just be a really interesting aspect of the mythology to explore. 

[Camera One]

 Or maybe A&E asked her to look as in pain... So we think Emma is 24/7 struggling with the idea of death

I think it was intentional.  After all, the line that Emma got after the experience of this episode was that Henry was going to turn out just fine, after she's gone.  This episode is just another step in Emma's arc of accepting that she is going to die.  Until she finds out she isn't.  A&E's plotting is not complex enough to last an entire season.  I'm pretty much ready for her to "die" now so we can move on and no one ever references it again.

I don't think this episode can sustain two weeks of conversation.

[asabovesobelow]

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's as though they had read the script and knew the focus of the episode was on the Swan-Mills family dynamic.

My favorite!! Always have to weed through so much for a tiny glimpse of the dangling carrot.

I'm biased, but I thought this was one of the better episodes of the season so far. Loved the Charmings, Zelena/Belle, and Emma/Regina. 

However...

EQ/Rumple. I truly have no idea where they're going with this, but there isn't one scenario that seems remotely worth it.

Henry. His cheese is topped with cheese. I cringe every time he opens his mouth. My eyes instinctively closed when he started talking about how his moms taught him about the importance of family, etc. It's lovely, really, but Henry works so much better for me in theory than in practice.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just watched the episode earlier.  I'm going to try to stay positive, because the show itself is rather depressing as of late, and after last week, I've dealt with enough negativity to last awhile.  So [deep breath] here goes:

• I'm impressed Henry figured out it wasn't Regina.  I think that shows a bit of growth/maturity on his part that he wasn't so self-absorbed as usual that it didn't go right over his head.
• The Snowing scenes were very poignant and well done, showing them trying to cope and make the best of the circumstances.  
• I do love that Killian immediately sensed something wasn't right when Emma supposedly drove off to NY by herself - and then went looking for her the last place he knew her to be in Storybrook.  It's nice to see the savvy (and slightly dangerous!) Captain again.  
• I'm guessing Zelena will have a good reason to work with Team Hero now that EvilSis wants to kill her.  Also: Loved her snark to Rumple about Neal.  
• Liked the mention of Genie!  Miss you, Robin Williams.  I'm betting Jafar is in the lamp now.  Eh..at least it will be nice to see Oded Fehr again if it is.  :) 

But a couple things I had/have a problem with:

• I don't know how they can possibly redeem RumBelle now.  I really don't.  [And I hope they don't anyway but I'm still afraid they will or will at least try to.]
• Henry grabbed The Dragon's heart before the mirror burst.  So what did he do with it?  
• And what was the purpose of Hephaestus' hammer?  Couldn't EQ just have encouraged Henry to squeeze the heart like all the other times she killed people?  Why have to use the hammer?  Seemed like a waste of a magical object/opportunity to me.
• Could the mention of The Dragon's daughter actually be Lily?  Wouldn't that be a hoot - after all this time they address who her father is finally?

[Michel]

52 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm betting Jafar is in the lamp now.  Eh..at least it will be nice to see Oded Fehr again if it is.  :)

They've already said they want to honor the canon of the Wonderland spinoff, so if they do so, it'll be Jafar in there, since he was inside by the time it ended.

[thuganomics85]

Wait, so is Dragon Tzi Ma still stuck in mirror world?  Both Emma and Regina popped out, but he was nowhere to be seen.  If so, I hope they get him out somehow, or that is going to be a pretty sucky fate for that poor guy.

Outside of the opening montage (which went a bit too long, but was still.... well, charming), I was mainly bored with this episode.  Anytime Henry gets a ton of focus automatically looses my interest, and I really could care less about his dating life, his love for old movies (might be the most far-fetch thing about this show), and the consist struggle of his now three mommies.  Yawn.

I can't believe this show wanted me to ever believe Aladdin would successfully steal the wand from Rumple's nose.  Yeah, no recurring character is going to best the almighty Rumple.  At least Jasmine/Karen David was looking extra good in this one.  And they got his lamp back which, if they are following the Wonderland spin-off canon, might contain Jafar!

Rumple and Belle have just gotten disturbing, which I normally wouldn't mind if I felt like Rumple was destined to be a true villain, but with this show, I can so see it ending with him being all "My bad, dearie!" and they "move past it."  Because why let a little "trap your ex with a magical bracelet" get in the way of true love?!

So, Rumple and The Evil Queen are getting even close (again, ew), and now he is trying to convince EQ to kill Zelena, which I guess will drive Zelena to the good side... for now. 

[Curio]

I forget who mentioned it earlier, but I agree, they should have replaced Aladdin with Will in this episode. In fact, that would have been more emotionally resonant for Belle and it could have been a good way to send Will's character off the show. Here's how it could have played out:

Belle and Zelena need someone to steal the wand. Belle remembers her ex Will who she dumped off screen, and so she goes to Will's apartment and they have an awkward chat where she apologizes for choosing the Dark One over him. We could have gotten a nice character development conversation and gotten inside Belle's head a little more as she explains why she's always drawn towards evil men like Rumple even though there are good men like Will out there. Will's all good with it, though, because he thinks he knows where Ana might be, but he doesn't have the magical capability to open a portal to find her. Quid pro quo time, Zelena offers to send Will wherever he needs to go if he agrees to steal the wand from Rumple. After his history dealing with Rumple when he was dating Belle, he's more than happy to knock Rumple down a peg by stealing something from right under his nose. Will steals the wand, Zelena opens the portal to send Will away, he and Belle have a proper goodbye on screen, and he's off to be reunited with Ana/he's off the mother show for good. That portal closes, and while Zelena is ramping up her magic to open a new portal so she and Belle can go to a different realm, that's when Rumple comes in and stops them.

And if they really wanted Aladdin to be a thief in this episode, he could have mentioned that stealing from Rumple's shop is a two man job, so that's when Belle would have her lightbulb moment about her ex-boyfriend.

I don't understand how the writers have managed to make Aladdin and Jasmine so useless. They keep making Jasmine repeat "we need to save Agrabah!" but then she never does anything except stroll down the streets of Storybrooke. If it's so urgent, go do something about it! Do some research at the library! Do something.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Curio

[PixiePaws1]

Emma was a real Debbie Downer this ep and I can't help but think Killian's beautiful 'remember who you are' story time should have been moved to this ep after Emma gets out of the mirror..as it stands...looks like she just ignored every word which makes no sense given the message. 

Unless the message was actually intended for the audience as a plot sign post.

[Michel]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

I don't understand how the writers have managed to make Aladdin and Jasmine so useless. They keep making Jasmine repeat "we need to save Agrabah!" but then she never does anything except stroll down the streets of Storybrooke. If it's so urgent, go do something about it! Do some research at the library! Do something.

I don't think they're useless at all.  I think they're just holding off their story until Jafar arrives, if he's coming after the Evil Queen is dealt with.

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, Michel said:

I don't think they're useless at all.  I think they're just holding off their story until Jafar arrives, if he's coming after the Evil Queen is dealt with.

That's kind of the point I was making. The fact that the writers are holding off on their story until Jafar arrives means that most of their episodes up to this point have been mostly filler and they're stalling until the real action comes in. Once Jafar comes into play I'm sure Jasmine and Aladdin won't be pointless, but right now, they might as well not be on screen at all.

Also, I can't believe Jafar is going to be unleashed just because Aladdin was like, "Oh, cool, shiny object! I guess I'll just steal this for myself." And it happened off screen. So Aladdin will be partially responsible for unleashing a dangerous villain just because he said screw it, let's be selfish.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, PixiePaws1 said:

Emma was a real Debbie Downer this ep and I can't help but think Killian's beautiful 'remember who you are' story time should have been moved to this ep after Emma gets out of the mirror..as it stands...looks like she just ignored every word which makes no sense given the message. 

This is what happens when they write for episodes and not for the season as a whole. Multiple writers apparently don't cross-check with each other, so there's like no continuity. Emma's defeatist attitude was required this episode to justify Regina not sacrificing herself to end the EQ. So Emma had to become hopeless about her fate. Everytime Emma has a special episode with Regina, her relationship with Killian suffers from it. She either forgets his hopeful encouragement, or feels guilty she's in a relationship or even that he's alive. Smh.

2 hours ago, Curio said:

I forget who mentioned it earlier, but I agree, they should have replaced Aladdin with Will in this episode. In fact, that would have been more emotionally resonant for Belle and it could have been a good way to send Will's character off the show. Here's how it could have played out:

...Will's all good with it, though, because he thinks he knows where Ana might be, but he doesn't have the magical capability to open a portal to find her. 

That was I. I like your scenario. Too bad it didn't go that way...

Edited November 15, 2016 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

Everytime Emma has a special episode with Regina, her relationship with Killian suffers from it. She either forgets his hopeful encouragement, or feels guilty she's in a relationship or even that he's alive. Smh.

Yeah, this. Emma is either Killian's girlfriend or Regina's BFF, but not both at the same time, just in case someone gets mad.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Also, I can't believe Jafar is going to be unleashed just because Aladdin was like, "Oh, cool, shiny object! I guess I'll just steal this for myself."

I'm actually really sad that Abu was just the toy monkey.  I'm hoping (probably in vain, I know) that Abu is under an enchantment like Jiminy's parents (who are still there, right?  So sad...), and can be reinstated to his true monkey form.  hee hee.  And then the Real Abu could mess with Jafar once Aladdin accidentally lets him out of the lamp.  (See?  I did tie it back to the quote!)

Also: if Jafar is the genie now (which also happened in the movie - itty bitty living space) doesn't he have to do what his master says?  So the only real threat from Jafar should be if Rumple or the EQ, or possibly Zelena, is the one to release him.  I say should be because the show will probably somehow get around that little caveat, because: Magic!

[Curio]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't think this episode can sustain two weeks of conversation.

 

It won't. This episode is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Emma and Regina have zero issues with each other and work together as friendly co-parents...like they have for the past three seasons. No drama there. Hook gets knocked out but is totally okay by the end of the episode. No drama there. Snow and Charming are still tertiary characters, even though they have a huge curse to deal with. There should be drama there, but their drama is turned into an upbeat montage. Henry and Violet are still going strong. No drama there. The Evil Queen is still making out with Rumple at the end of every episode. (How many episodes have ended with Golden Queen? All of their scenes are starting to run together in my head because they're all practically the same.)

Nearly everything set back to the status quo. Why did we introduce the plot about Emma being worried that Regina might be under the hood? Shouldn't that have come up at some point in the mirror world? 

The only somewhat interesting drama for me was Belle teaming up with Zelena to travel to the Enchanted Forest. At least they're a fairly unexplored character pairing. 

[Arnella]

I can't believe that the only thing that I didn't find boring and predictable was those few seconds of Henry figuring out it was EQ playing Regina (even though they kind of hit us over the head with the "stand up straight" line).

Aladdin/Jasmine have even less reason to be here than Merida did and that was QUITE little! 

It just seems like A&E are killing time until a "big" episode.  If they only have 2 or 3 episodes worth of plot, please just do like Sherlock.  3 really awesome episodes (mini movies really) per year.

The big buildup for this season was Oded Fehr as Jafar.  As Fehr/Carlyle fan girl, that would have been just my cup of tea and redeemed any tired plot with eye candy and mayhem.   But NO Oded and Robert's chemistry-less and un-sexy snogging.  It's a testament to A&E's bad writing that they can make freakin' Robert Carlyle un-sexy!! 

SO agree that EQ is NOT EQ!  Where is the murder/rape/mayhem?  Regina doesn't seem to be any different AT ALL without her inside either.  Another completely useless plot device just so A&E can indulge in fashion porn.   

Edited November 15, 2016 by Arnella

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, Arnella said:

SO agree that EQ is NOT EQ!  Where is the murder/rape/mayhem?  Regina doesn't seem to be any different AT ALL without her inside either.  Another completely useless plot device just so A&E can indulge in fashion porn.   

 

The split Regina scenario would have been more interesting if Regina without any Evil Queen qualities was timid, didn't have any sassy attitude, and didn't want to fight villains. Then the heroes would have had a moral dilemma on their hands: do they insert Regina with evil again just so she can have a backbone and be a hero? Or do they live with this new Regina who hides in her mansion all day and makes apple pies but never actually wants to help the heroes when it comes to battle time? The writers wanted a reason to keep the Evil Queen around for an entire season because they knew the flashbacks were getting too repetitive, but they didn't want to get rid of sassy Regina either, so this is where we're at.

Did anyone catch Emma's line about her house barely having a couch? Hey, maybe she should...I don't know...do some normal boyfriend/girlfriend activity like picking out furniture at the store and have Hook and David help her move the furniture into the house. Except that only happens in Offscreenville.

[Mitch]

While I hate Henry..I thought the reason he liked old movies was that he grew up in a town where time had stopped in the 80s..right? But then, they still got outside TV so..oh well.  Zelena and the heart spell, how did she enchant that when she was in New York..right?

The Mirror World was interesting..and yes, perfect time for Emma and Regina to hash things out, especially if all those mirrors reflected things that happened in the past..imagine Emma seeing the mirror that had Regina killing the Underwear Model Sheriff...(though does her crypt have a mirror?) And yes, I expected more comedy with the mirrors, like Emma..."Regina, what are you doing staring at that mirror we have to figure this out.." Regina..."Did you know that Little Miss Moffet was having an affair with Peter the Pumpkin Eater?It involves a lot of whip cream..."

[Rumsy4]

31 minutes ago, Arnella said:

Another completely useless plot device just so A&E can indulge in fashion porn.   

Yup. Specifically, cleavage porn. Lana gets a new EQ outfit every episode. Eduardo said every scene, but he clearly meant episode. Or maybe he was including both Regina versions.

[MedievalGirl]

I love the contrast of EQ's crazy dresses and Storybrook. Gold critiquing EQ in modern clothes was awesome too. Don't ever put down the bedazzlier Eduardo. 

[Rumsy4]

The EQ's dresses have been hit or miss with me. I really liked the blue outfit in the Cinderella episode, and the latest one as well. I intensely disliked the one she wore in Dark Waters. 

The costumes certainly do make a contrast between the two versions of Regina, but it also (intentionally, perhaps) creates the idea that the EQ is a past version of Regina. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/13/2016 at 9:42 PM, Stacey1014 said:

I really don't like the Belle story. Everything about her scenes with Rumple bothered me. 

Everything about all of Belle's scenes this episode bothered me; not just the ones with Rumple. (Though they were maybe the most disturbing.  As others mention, Belle going to Zelena, and Zelena agreeing to help her made no sense.  Belle's reasoning, trying to 'bond' with Zelena was weird and cringeworthy.  As @Rumsy4 said, Belle has pretty much isolated herself from everyone else in town from her years of standing by Rumple and all her 'but his heart is good!' rhetoric, I guess Zelena was really her only choice.  

Now about that wand: wasn't there some caveat as to who could use it and under what circumstances?  

And why did Belle want to go back to the Enchanted Forest to get away from Rumple?  Couldn't he just follow her there by having Zelena open another portal?  And wouldn't he be even more powerful there?  And she wouldn't have Hook around to help defend her.  Wouldn't going to "the Land Without Magic" be a better option?  Especially if Henry doesn't follow and make people join hands and sing around a fountain...

On 11/13/2016 at 9:49 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I agree that the mirrors were a wasted opportunity. I was hoping that since we saw the shards of mirror near unconscious Hook that Emma would have seen him and that might have added to the sense of urgency. But, as usual, when they have an opportunity to add to the sense of conflict and tension, they miss it entirely.

I was actually hoping Hook would put the shards of broken mirror back together and that would help them get out.

Quote

I was really, really uncomfortable watching the Belle and Rumple scene. This is an area where they can't just claim it's fantasy and therefore it doesn't count. They're dramatizing the kind of abusive relationship that has the women's shelters in my area so full right now that they're having to rent motel rooms to help women escape abusive husbands. It's a real thing that women are in extreme danger at the moment they decide to leave because the abusers hate losing control and will do anything to hunt them down and either stop them from leaving or even kill them for leaving. The fact that it's a magic bracelet rather than him stalking her doesn't change this. If they're going to show this kind of relationship, they need to be honest about what they're depicting and treat it seriously, not brush it off, claim that it's magic and fantasy and therefore isn't real, and not try to pretend that it's romantic.

So much this.  So, SO much.

Quote

Aladdin is the greatest thief ever? He goes into a building that's occupied, with a flashlight. 

Heh.  Yeah, I laughed at that.  Kind of the same deal when they showed him stealing from people in the Agrabah market place.  It's not that he was such a great thief, everyone else was just oblivious.  It's like the show isn't even really trying with him.

On 11/14/2016 at 1:09 AM, Camera One said:

The World of Mirrors was neat at the beginning, but got a bit repetitive since there wasn't actually anywhere new to explore.  

Someone else mentioned Sidney, but then it was pretty well glossed over in the show.  But Sidney made himself a home in the World Behind the Mirror because he was trapped there so long.  How sad is that?  And of course, Regina did not even seem remorseful about that either.   

On 11/14/2016 at 3:37 AM, KAOS Agent said:

- Did the Dragon get out and did he get his heart back? I guess no one cares.

I care.  [Not that that makes a difference in the show.]

19 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

If Regina reintegrates the EQ back, she'll have both sets of memories, and it's going to be pretty awkward, especially all those gross make-out sessions with Gold. Brrrrr...

That might actually be be some of the best stuff!  lol.  Especially if we also get to see everyone else's reaction faces again.  

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, Curio said:

I forget who mentioned it earlier, but I agree, they should have replaced Aladdin with Will in this episode. In fact, that would have been more emotionally resonant for Belle and it could have been a good way to send Will's character off the show. Here's how it could have played out:

That would have been so much better.  Heck, Will could also tell Aladdin that Jafar is trapped in the lamp, so Aladdin and Jasmine don't seem like complete idiots later.  I suppose the only problem is that the Will actor would probably not agree to come back after their shoddy treatment of him.  I forgot the other "great" thief, Robin Hood, the tripper of alarms.  What a joke.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Camera One

[iMonrey]

Quote

It just seems like A&E are killing time until a "big" episode.  If they only have 2 or 3 episodes worth of plot, please just do like Sherlock.  3 really awesome episodes (mini movies really) per year.

I get that they have a commitment to the network to produce 22 episodes, so they don't really have the luxury of just producing 3 really good ones. But this season so far has seemed even more self-indulgent than usual. The whole idea behind The Evil Queen and Regina being 2 different people just isn't working, and there's an awful lot of filler.  This episode in particular really got us nowhere. They need to do a better job of mapping out stories that can last 9-10 episodes without this much filler. 

What's really irritating is that if they have to have "filler" episodes like this why can't they deliver what's so painfully missing from this show? Just ordinary scenes where the characters have a chance to take a breath. For a "couple' Emma and Hook have spent remarkably little time together onscreen. It's always Emma and Regina off on an adventure and Hook left behind. Why? Don't the writers know the audience wants more of Emma and Hook together? Why couldn't it have been Emma and Hook trapped behind the mirror? Maybe even contemplating staying there.  They'd have been safe, they could still "see" their friends and they'd finally get to spend some quality time together, just the two of them.

I'd also like to know if A&E are watching the sagging ratings and have any kind of end-game in mind. Every time I hear them interviewed they carry on as if they think the show can just go on forever in its current format. "There are so many stories to tell!" Seems to me like they ran out of them.

Edited November 15, 2016 by iMonrey

[KingOfHearts]

Why didn't Rumple kill Aladdin on sight in his shop? He's got nothing to prove any more. There was no point in letting Wicked Beauty have it for a brief moment, and there was no benefit to him for Aladdin to obtain the empty genie lamp. We've seen in the past that those who steal from the Dark One tend to be made a bloody example.

Edited November 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

The whole idea behind The Evil Queen and Regina being 2 different people just isn't working, and there's an awful lot of filler. 

What the audience wants to see and what A&E think that the audience wants to see are two very different things. That's what happens when you just use Twitter as a source of info and opinion.