History Talk: The British Monarchy

[Bill1978]

Hopefully this is the right thread for the news.

I am so impressed with the British monarchy for being able to pull off the surprise wedding of Beatrice on Friday (British time). Apparently it occurred a couple of hours before the Queen knighted Captain Tom.

[freddi]

Not sure where this should go, but this group of lovely photographs includes one of Queen Elizabeth from around 1962 (so around Season 2), in a dress that Princess Beatrice just revised for her wedding.  Plus, some background on the tiara worn by Beatrice and Elizabeth (from Queen Mary), and how Prince Phillip designed the Queen's engagement ring.  https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a33350041/princess-beatrice-edoardo-mapelli-mozzi-wedding-photos/ 

[Umbelina]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:01 PM, freddi said:

Not sure where this should go, but this group of lovely photographs includes one of Queen Elizabeth from around 1962 (so around Season 2), in a dress that Princess Beatrice just revised for her wedding.  Plus, some background on the tiara worn by Beatrice and Elizabeth (from Queen Mary), and how Prince Phillip designed the Queen's engagement ring.  https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a33350041/princess-beatrice-edoardo-mapelli-mozzi-wedding-photos/ 

She looks very happy.  

I guess doing it there was one way to get around her pedophile daddy walking her down the aisle in full view of the public.

Looks like they added about a foot in length and those little sleeves  to the dress, it's very pretty, and looks great on her.  I'm not sure of the choice of the tiara with that romantic dress though, not that I'm an expert.  😉  I would think something more romantic and soft rather than those sculptural spikes, but the history of it makes sense.

 

[Roseanna]

On 7/28/2020 at 12:03 PM, Umbelina said:

I guess doing it there was one way to get around her pedophile daddy walking her down the aisle in full view of the public.

That was the reason why the wedding was originally postponed. But the small wedding was because of the Covid virus - they wanted to have the Queen and Prince Philip as guests.

 

Quote

Contrary to what fairy tales might have taught us, people – even princes – don’t have to be either all good or all bad. What we have here is a big pile of flawed humans. That’s all they are. And if they ever thought they were more than that, the fault lies with us for believing that, too.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/28/prince-harry-and-meghan-book-royals-flawed-finding-freedom-sussex

[dubbel zout]

Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer were married 39 years ago today.

[Scarlett45]

I thought you guys might enjoy this podcast The Dark Side of....the 90s: The British Royal Family.

[ruby24]

I'm so excited for Season 4, because my biggest, gossipy royal obsession has always been over the question of, did Charles EVER love Diana at all? And now I guess we'll get to see Peter Morgan's answer to that, lol. 

Diana clearly loved him, but I was always curious if he ever felt anything for her at any point in their relationship. We all know he wanted to be with Camilla, etc., but did he even try to love Diana or was it all just a complete sham? Was there a reason he chose her, or could she really have just been anyone?

Given the movie The Queen, I sort of already have the impression that Morgan thinks he must have loved her (Charles was portrayed very sympathetically in that movie and torn up over her death) and he has shown Charles to be a very sympathetic figure on the show too, so far. And he sure doesn't think much of Camilla, if the show's anything to go by (she was probably the most shallow and least developed figure of anyone we've seen introduced- I honestly think Morgan himself doesn't really have any idea why Charles was so into her, lol).

But I'm dying to know his perspective on Diana herself and whether there was something in her that Charles must have been drawn to. I know the stories about their age difference and how they didn't have much in common, but given that Charles suffered from a lack of love and has always wanted to express it (wanted to have kids, wanted to be affectionate with them, wanted to say his opinions to people)...you'd kind of think THAT was what he liked about Diana- the fact that she was so open and loving and human (the opposite of his family), and also wanted to share her opinions and emotions and be herself with the public. And did so, especially later.

In fact- it always seemed to me that what Diana showed of herself later on, in the aftermath of her heartbreak and all, was exactly the kind of person that Charles wanted or wished he could be. It still seems like they would have made sense as partners. And yet... the Camilla of it all. 

[dubbel zout]

I think Charles loved Diana but he wasn't in love with her. I think his grief over her death was genuine—by all accounts they were in a pretty good place at that point—and of course, Diana was the mother of his children. Very ironically, I think her death made him much more publicly demonstrative (I stress publicly; I have no doubt he was affectionate in private) toward William and Harry. One of the more poignant pictures/videos for me is of the boys and Charles looking at all the sympathy cards and flowers outside Kensington Palace, and Harry and Charles are holding hands. I'm not sure he'd have done that before her death. Context matters, but he could have been all "stiff upper lip" and wasn't.

[MadyGirl1987]

I would say he cared for her. Probably not romantic love, but more as a friend? I do think it is telling that they seemed to get on better after their divorce and were better partners when it came to William and Harry.

I also don’t know I would say Diana loved him. I think she was more in love with the idea of love, if that makes sense? She had a rough childhood with her parents divorce, and I kinda feel that made her a bit overeager to find love and stability, settle into a happily ever after. 

[AZChristian]

Realistically, there weren't a lot of virgins (a major prerequisite) in the right age range for a 32-year-old man.  She was probably his best option in a limited field.

[MadyGirl1987]

24 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Realistically, there weren't a lot of virgins (a major prerequisite) in the right age range for a 32-year-old man.  She was probably his best option in a limited field.

Right? I find it so crazy that in the late 70’s, early 80’s this was still a thing. Would the average joe on the street really have cared if his wife was a virgin? I mean, there’s a huge difference between being in the tabloids with a different man every week(That I could see being a problem)and someone who’s dated a bit and has some knowledge of what makes a relationship work. If Charles has been allowed to marry someone more his equal in age and experience, it would have been better for everyone.

[ruby24]

Was she really a virgin though, or was that just a myth? Even if she was, she and Charles really never slept together before the wedding? Still seems somewhat unlikely to me (unless it's confirmed somewhere).

I guess we'll get Peter Morgan's take on that too, lol (maybe).

Still seems kinda hard to believe that he wasn't ever attracted to her. She was so pretty, and most guys are at least attracted to young, pretty girls (although yeah, I guess considering Camilla, it's possible she just wasn't his type). But I did see clips of Diana talking about how he was into her in the beginning, so who knows.

Edited August 23, 2020 by ruby24

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Was she really a virgin though, or was that just a myth?

she was awfully young, wasn't she? As I recall she was almost exactly my age, and she married right around the time I turned 20. I don't think it's impossible that she wasn't a virgin, especially if she hadn't had a "serious" boyfriend at that point. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by dleighg

[dubbel zout]

She was definitely a virgin; the Andrew Morton books talks about how she "kept herself tidy" (not sure if those are Morton's or Diana's words). 

Then there was the extreme embarrassment of her maternal grandfather assuring the world that yes, Diana was indeed a virgin.

UGH. Thank goodness no one cares about that anymore. It's so gross and patriarchal.

[AZChristian]

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Was she really a virgin though, or was that just a myth? Even if she was, she and Charles really never slept together before the wedding? Still seems somewhat unlikely to me (unless it's confirmed somewhere).

From the Daily Mail in 1993: "[Chuck's] fiancée, Lady Diana Spencer, was the girl next door. Their families had known each other all their lives and for generations past. She had been vetted, guaranteed immaculate by the admirable Mr. Pinker, surgeon-gynaecologist to the Queen; she was the very definition of the word 'innocent'."

And from the Chicago Tribune circa 1996: "That the royal gynecologist certified Diana as a 20-year-old virgin bride merely added to her mystique—and her novelty."

[kieyra]

Sorry, in the 20th century they were still forcing a virginity check via doctor?

[AZChristian]

54 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Sorry, in the 20th century they were still forcing a virginity check via doctor?

They don't any more, but they did even that recently.  Pretty bizarre.  

[Crs97]

I think Charles was infatuated and Diana was determined to live out the romance novel plot of “winning” the prince.  I think she pretended to like a lot of the same things he liked, and he thought they had a lot more in common than they did.  If the media hadn’t noticed their relationship and outed them, I think it would have ended quietly as they got to know each other better.  Once she was hounded, it was almost like the die was cast IMO.

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I think Charles was infatuated

I don't think he was infatuated at all. There was immense pressure for him to marry: He was in his early 30s (gasp! but it was a thing), Philip told him to either dump Diana or propose, and being unable to stand up to his father, he proposed to Diana. Remember the infamous "whatever love is" answer? That's not someone who's infatuated. If anyone was infatuated, it was Diana.

[Scarlett45]

Personally I think Charles grew to respect and have affection for Diana as a person and as the mother of his children- but “love” in the romantic sense of the word? I don’t think so. 
 

I think Diana was more infatuated with him and the idea of the fairytale than anything. I also think her pride was deeply hurt that he had stronger emotional ties to a woman older, lower ranked and less conventionally attractive than she. 
 

@ruby24, yes Diana really was a virgin in the standard “penis in vagina” sense of the term. Again she was only 20, which wouldn’t be so odd in 2020 much less 1980, especially since a poster up thread said she didn’t date a lot or have much of a social life. Plenty of aristocratic British women had sex before they got married and it wasn’t an issue (The Princess Royal for one), but there were different standards for the wife of the Prince of Wales. They only met in person 13 times before the wedding so I believe they didn’t have sex before they got married. Unrelated- given how long Queen Elizabeth and Philip courted I wouldn’t be surprised if they had sex before the wedding date. 

On 8/23/2020 at 3:56 PM, ruby24 said:

Still seems kinda hard to believe that he wasn't ever attracted to her. She was so pretty, and most guys are at least attracted to young, pretty girls (although yeah, I guess considering Camilla, it's possible she just wasn't his type). But I did see clips of Diana talking about how he was into her in the beginning, so who knows.

Oh I can believe he was attracted to her sexually and thought she was pleasant enough when they first got married. But I can see how their incompatible personalities soured any sort of fondness towards each other throughout the marriage. Just because you think someone is appealing sexually and is pleasant doesn’t mean you’re going to fall in love with them. 

 

13 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think he was infatuated at all. There was immense pressure for him to marry: He was in his early 30s (gasp! but it was a thing), Philip told him to either dump Diana or propose, and being unable to stand up to his father, he proposed to Diana. Remember the infamous "whatever love is" answer? That's not someone who's infatuated. If anyone was infatuated, it was Diana.

That “whatever love is” line- omg. WHO THE FUCK says that on TV about your fiancé?????? That was a huge red flag to anyone who spoke English fluently. 

[Crs97]

I think there was some infatuation.  As Ruby said, she was pretty and seemed to be hanging on his every word.  She was telling him she loved all the same things he did.  Yes, he had that stupid line about love, which should have made anyone run, but I remember some stories in the beginning that suggested he had at least hoped to be content in marriage.  I don't think the infatuation lasted long; as I said, if they had been allowed to date properly I think their relationship would have ended quickly.  His dad and the media meddled way too quickly.  Oh well, who knows besides him at this point?

[ruby24]

57 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I think there was some infatuation.  As Ruby said, she was pretty and seemed to be hanging on his every word.  She was telling him she loved all the same things he did.  Yes, he had that stupid line about love, which should have made anyone run, but I remember some stories in the beginning that suggested he had at least hoped to be content in marriage.  I don't think the infatuation lasted long; as I said, if they had been allowed to date properly I think their relationship would have ended quickly.  His dad and the media meddled way too quickly.  Oh well, who knows besides him at this point?

I know, he's never said anything has he? I wish we could find out someday, what he actually felt for her at the beginning. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I can believe he was attracted to her sexually and thought she was pleasant enough when they first got married. But I can see how their incompatible personalities soured any sort of fondness towards each other throughout the marriage. Just because you think someone is appealing sexually and is pleasant doesn’t mean you’re going to fall in love with them. 

I think he knew he could get it up long enough for an heir and a spare, but he never had any intention of curtailing his romance with Camilla (and possibly others as well.)

I don't think they were all that incompatible either, other than the age thing and hunting.  I think he was very jealous and insecure after they began making public appearances, and the crowds only wanted Diana.  He'd been "the world's most eligible bachelor" and the STAR for a long time.  Diana just effortlessly made people love her.  He was furious at that.

On 8/23/2020 at 9:03 AM, dubbel zout said:

I think Charles loved Diana but he wasn't in love with her. I think his grief over her death was genuine—by all accounts they were in a pretty good place at that point—and of course, Diana was the mother of his children. Very ironically, I think her death made him much more publicly demonstrative (I stress publicly; I have no doubt he was affectionate in private) toward William and Harry. One of the more poignant pictures/videos for me is of the boys and Charles looking at all the sympathy cards and flowers outside Kensington Palace, and Harry and Charles are holding hands. I'm not sure he'd have done that before her death. Context matters, but he could have been all "stiff upper lip" and wasn't.

Charles was afraid of being shot.  Holding Harry's hand may have been fatherly, who knows?  It could also have been self protection, thinking "maybe they won't shoot me with Harry so close."

On 8/23/2020 at 9:35 AM, AZChristian said:

Realistically, there weren't a lot of virgins (a major prerequisite) in the right age range for a 32-year-old man.  She was probably his best option in a limited field.

She was a kind person as well, sympathetic, and was caring with him after his uncle was killed.  I think that may have been the moment he decided to choose her as heir mommy.

22 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Was she really a virgin though, or was that just a myth? Even if she was, she and Charles really never slept together before the wedding? Still seems somewhat unlikely to me (unless it's confirmed somewhere).

I guess we'll get Peter Morgan's take on that too, lol (maybe).

Still seems kinda hard to believe that he wasn't ever attracted to her. She was so pretty, and most guys are at least attracted to young, pretty girls (although yeah, I guess considering Camilla, it's possible she just wasn't his type). But I did see clips of Diana talking about how he was into her in the beginning, so who knows.

She was not hard to be attracted to, I doubt it was that difficult for Charles to do his duty and produce an heir and a spare.  As I said above though, his insecurity with her popularity, and the fact that he was in love with Camilla and they were exchanging gifts right before the wedding?  He was never in that marriage for anything close to the vows he took.  She was a means to an end.

19 hours ago, kieyra said:

Sorry, in the 20th century they were still forcing a virginity check via doctor?

No longer, but then?  Yes.  Can't have the bloodline questioned.

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think he was infatuated at all. There was immense pressure for him to marry: He was in his early 30s (gasp! but it was a thing), Philip told him to either dump Diana or propose, and being unable to stand up to his father, he proposed to Diana. Remember the infamous "whatever love is" answer? That's not someone who's infatuated. If anyone was infatuated, it was Diana.

I think Diana was in love, or at least as "in love" as any 19 year old could understand love.  Sure it was a fairytale come true for her as well, and she was one of those little girls who grew up wanting to marry a Prince and live happily ever after, like many other girls.

The crown couldn't have another David, running around with women all the time, let alone with women beyond childbearing years, leaving the continuity line a mess once again.  Everyone knew about his affairs, and I'm pretty sure they all knew that Camilla was "the one" for him, in spite of the others.  Camilla was a married woman, with children already.  It simply wasn't suitable.   34 wasn't "young" to be married, let alone for the future King.

[Ohiopirate02]

From what I have read about Charles, he strikes me as an Edwardian man living in the late 20th century.  He is old-fashioned enough to realize he was never going to marry for love given his position.  He didn't want to settle down in his 20s because of this.  I agree that he liked the attention he received as the World's Most Eligible Bachelor in the 70s.  By the time he really needed to settle down, his parents' antiquated criteria for a potential bride narrowed down the pool of possible candidates.  Diana checked off enough of the boxes, the press got wind of their courtship, and he pulled the trigger and proposed.  We all know what happened after that. 

Where I think Charles went wrong with Diana was he did not spell out his vision of their marriage.  He expected Diana to happily tag along as his life continued like before.  There was no compromise or adult conversations about living as a royal.  Because, this is what aristocratic and royal wives are supposed to do for the first years of marriage.  If Charles wants to spend a week in the country with friends, then Diana was supposed to follow and be the perfect hostess.  Or if Diana wanted to go to the theatre but Charles wanted a quiet night at home, she was supposed to gladly stay at home with him.  Their marriage was never a partnership in Charles's eyes.  I do think he did take the time and reflect on how his first marriage imploded, and Charles is a much better husband to Camilla than he was to Diana.  

[Scarlett45]

36 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Where I think Charles went wrong with Diana was he did not spell out his vision of their marriage.  He expected Diana to happily tag along as his life continued like before.  There was no compromise or adult conversations about living as a royal.  Because, this is what aristocratic and royal wives are supposed to do for the first years of marriage.  If Charles wants to spend a week in the country with friends, then Diana was supposed to follow and be the perfect hostess.  Or if Diana wanted to go to the theatre but Charles wanted a quiet night at home, she was supposed to gladly stay at home with him.  Their marriage was never a partnership in Charles's eyes.  I do think he did take the time and reflect on how his first marriage imploded, and Charles is a much better husband to Camilla than he was to Diana.  

I agree.
 

And I also blame the female elders in Diana’s life for not sitting her down and actually explaining exactly what was expected of her, and if she was willing to do that.
 

Diana was 19- I don’t blame her for not knowing, but the elders knew and should’ve told her. A part of me thinks they wanted Diana married super young for a reason. Married at 20 was young for women in her circle to marry even in 1980- most waited until University was over (or the age equivalent). I think they knew Diana wasn’t the most emotionally stable and kind of impulsive (although very kind, sweet and thoughtful), without having the academic stamina to have a socially appropriate career. I think they may have thought she would do something really dumb (like fall in love with a married guy, get pregnant, try to blackmail him etc etc) and ruin her chances for a socially appropriate match.  Hence when Charles came along they thought there would never be a better match, best get her married ASAP. 

[MadyGirl1987]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree.
 

And I also blame the female elders in Diana’s life for not sitting her down and actually explaining exactly what was expected of her, and if she was willing to do that.
 

Diana was 19- I don’t blame her for not knowing, but the elders knew and should’ve told her. A part of me thinks they wanted Diana married super young for a reason. Married at 20 was young for women in her circle to marry even in 1980- most waited until University was over (or the age equivalent). I think they knew Diana wasn’t the most emotionally stable and kind of impulsive (although very kind, sweet and thoughtful), without having the academic stamina to have a socially appropriate career. I think they may have thought she would do something really dumb (like fall in love with a married guy, get pregnant, try to blackmail him etc etc) and ruin her chances for a socially appropriate match.  Hence when Charles came along they thought there would never be a better match, best get her married ASAP. 

I think you are spot on. IIRC, didn’t her sisters, when shortly before the wedding Diana was second guessing getting married, tell her it was too late to back out now? Her family failed her by not preparing her like they should have. They had been running in royal circles long enough that they would have known what would be expected of her.

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I think you are spot on. IIRC, didn’t her sisters, when shortly before the wedding Diana was second guessing getting married, tell her it was too late to back out now? Her family failed her by not preparing her like they should have. They had been running in royal circles long enough that they would have known what would be expected of her.

They DID KNOW. Everyone knew besides Diana. They knew what was expected of her (heir, spare, hostess, photo ops) and it was common knowledge in their circle that Charles was still in love with Camilla and they were still fucking although she was married to someone else. 
 

I know her Mom wasn’t in the picture all that much (I mean she knew her but the divorce left a mark) but why didn’t an Aunt or grandparent or older sister say something? Her older sister Sarah dated Charles for a hot minute. 
 

I could understand if her father thought it wasn’t his place to speak of women’s roles (although he should’ve done it!). 
Why didn’t they inform her and give her a chance to not court him? Why did they want the match so badly to keep her in the dark? I think if Diana has known what was what she would’ve told Charles she didn’t want to see him anymore. She was 19- not like she had to get married right then or else. 

[dubbel zout]

The families had been friends for years; the families had been connected for generations. Maybe they thought Diana already knew what was expected? Her sisters, at the very least, should have clued her in more than they did. Especially Sarah, who had dated Charles! (I think she was the ex who famously said [paraphrasing somewhat], "I wouldn't marry the dustman if I didn't love him, let alone the Prince of Wales.")

Or maybe marrying the heir to the throne was such a big "get" that they didn't care if Diana was prepared for it.

[Crs97]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

On 8/23/2020 at 12:03 PM, dubbel zout said:

Charles was afraid of being shot.  Holding Harry's hand may have been fatherly, who knows?  It could also have been self protection, thinking "maybe they won't shoot me with Harry so close."

I get that people don’t like him, but it’s really beyond the pale to assume he was using his young, grieving son as a human shield.

[Umbelina]

41 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I get that people don’t like him, but it’s really beyond the pale to assume he was using his young, grieving son as a human shield.

Several reports say he was terrified of being shot after Diana's death.  

I didn't say he DID that to avoid assassination, just that it was possible.  Probably 2 birds one stone, Diana was always physical and affectionate with the boys, so ...

[AZChristian]

11 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I think you are spot on. IIRC, didn’t her sisters, when shortly before the wedding Diana was second guessing getting married, tell her it was too late to back out now? 

Ah, yes.  The famous quote:  "Too late, Duch (the family name for Diana), your face is already on the tea towels."

[Umbelina]

Just a question.  Did anyone here actually like Diana's wedding dress?

I remember watching TV, marveling at the UK and all the pomp, and just waiting to see the dress.  She stepped out, and I was completely shocked.  To me, it looked like a wrinkled mess that made her look horrible, like a misguided Little Bo Peep top with those enormous unflattering sleeves, to call that dress "puffy" was an understatement.  Then the commentators were complimenting it, and I felt like I was in some kind of reverse/backward world.  Nothing they said matched what I was seeing on my TV, I saw a horror and a mistake, and they were saying flattering things!

I mean, today, it's certainly iconic if nothing else, but I thought it was a complete mess then, and I still do.   Just curious if at that time, anyone her liked it?

[AZChristian]

My thing was to look for what I knew would be a long train, and it sure had that!!!!  Yes, it looked very wrinkled when she got out of the coach, but I think the designer was just out of frame for the cameras with a steamer.  It didn't look too bad going down the aisle.  It was the generation of big gowns with poufy sleeves.

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Just a question.  Did anyone here actually like Diana's wedding dress?

I remember watching TV, marveling at the UK and all the pomp, and just waiting to see the dress.  She stepped out, and I was completely shocked.  To me, it looked like a wrinkled mess that made her look horrible, like a misguided Little Bo Peep top with those enormous unflattering sleeves, to call that dress "puffy" was an understatement.  Then the commentators were complimenting it, and I felt like I was in some kind of reverse/backward world.  Nothing they said matched what I was seeing on my TV, I saw a horror and a mistake, and they were saying flattering things!

I mean, today, it's certainly iconic if nothing else, but I thought it was a complete mess then, and I still do.   Just curious if at that time, anyone her liked it?

Honestly, I have never seen Diana as a fashion icon.  Her wedding dress is the epitome of excessive 80s fashion.  I believe the dress was wrinkled because of the sheer amount of fabric that was shoved into the car.  I realize that Diana's heyday was one of the worst fashion-wise of the 20th century, and I was a baby when Diana and Charles got married.  So by the time I could understand the fashion, I was traumatized by the other 80s fashion I was forced to endure.  

[dubbel zout]

I think her dress was perfect for the venue. A big space needs a big dress. The dress itself was a little froufrou—and the wrinkling was tragic—but it was definitely a dress fit for a princess-to-be, IMO.

[Crs97]

I didn’t like her dress (even if it were fashionable for the time, it definitely wore her), but I remember thinking her hair was the worst thing about that day.  Bad styling advice all the way around.

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Honestly, I have never seen Diana as a fashion icon.  Her wedding dress is the epitome of excessive 80s fashion.  I believe the dress was wrinkled because of the sheer amount of fabric that was shoved into the car.  I realize that Diana's heyday was one of the worst fashion-wise of the 20th century, and I was a baby when Diana and Charles got married.  So by the time I could understand the fashion, I was traumatized by the other 80s fashion I was forced to endure.  

I doubt Diana had anything to say about that dress, or if she did, very little.  

This whole thing was a major production and when it began she was a teenager.  

I still hate it in every way. 😉  

(I didn't hate all 80's fashion either, ha.)

ETA I don't think it was fashionable for the time either, it may have been fashionable in the 1600's though.

Also, we've seen simpler dresses that are outstanding in that kind of venue, Princess Margaret's and of course Kate Middleton's to name just two.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Umbelina

[Crs97]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I doubt Diana had anything to say about that dress, or if she did, very little

Oh, I think that dress is every bit the inspiration of a teenager raised on romance novels.  Her designers should have had the guts to stop her, but instead they fed into her every whim (like making the train so long).

[dubbel zout]

The Emmanuels had a very romantic style.

[buttersister]

It was a dress of its time. It suited me about as much as the idea of marrying the World's Most Eligible Bachelor. Which is to say, hard pass.

But me and the rest of the world were watching!

[andromeda331]

As a kid in the 80s I loved it. I thought it was so beautiful. The decade was full of big wedding dresses. But changed my mind in the 90s. Its too big, its wrinkled, and ugly. 

[Scarlett45]

I didn’t like the dress but I wasn’t even alive when she got married. I also agree that her hair was not done- why didn’t they have her slick it back like Annette Bening in The American President?? The dress was SO dated, I personally loved Kate’s dress the best out of all the British Royal wedding dresses. 
 

 

[chitowngirl]

I like Fergie’s dress much better.

[Umbelina]

I liked ANY of the royal wedding dresses better than that one.  I'm not opposed to "romantic" dresses, but that one was just wrong on every level.  😉

[kassygreene]

She turned 20 four weeks before the wedding, so most of the wedding planning was done by a 19-year-old.  The fashion of the time was still heavily influenced by the late 70s (ick ick ick).  The fabric for the dress was too easily wrinkled.  The train was designed for the main aisle at St. Paul's, arguably the only successful part of the design.

As I recall, though, the dress was "too big" because she kept losing weight, to the point that it became impossible to take it in any more.

She looked like what she was: a teenager dressed up as a fairy-tale princess.  I always thought it was fair to blame Barbara Cartland's "romances".

[Ohiopirate02]

53 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

She turned 20 four weeks before the wedding, so most of the wedding planning was done by a 19-year-old.  The fashion of the time was still heavily influenced by the late 70s (ick ick ick).  The fabric for the dress was too easily wrinkled.  The train was designed for the main aisle at St. Paul's, arguably the only successful part of the design.

As I recall, though, the dress was "too big" because she kept losing weight, to the point that it became impossible to take it in any more.

She looked like what she was: a teenager dressed up as a fairy-tale princess.  I always thought it was fair to blame Barbara Cartland's "romances".

After seeing images from Barbara Cartland's entertaining books, I concur.  

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, kassygreene said:

She looked like what she was: a teenager dressed up as a fairy-tale princess.  I always thought it was fair to blame Barbara Cartland's "romances".

Not sure if I've seen the reference mentioned here.  Diana was Barbara Cartland's step-granddaughter.

[kassygreene]

On 8/27/2020 at 8:38 AM, AZChristian said:

Not sure if I've seen the reference mentioned here.  Diana was Barbara Cartland's step-granddaughter.

Yes, and when she was a teenager Diana read those books by the bushel.

To be fair, so did I.  But that was mostly because she published at least 3 every month, and you could always find a Cartland.

[Roseanna]

Helsingin Sanomat, a Finnish daily paper, published today in the section "50 years ago" a picture and article about Prince Philip who had visited the fair in Turku:  

"At the English booth, the Prince was interested in everything. He found out very carefully about even small devices and the export prospects of the company selling them in Finland."

https://www.hs.fi/historia/art-2000006631102.html
 

 

[Scarlett45]

Im listening to this podcast about Diana, thought you might want to check it out.