Leah Remini: Courageous or Foolhardy

[fifty8th]

The way I look at it is that everyone in the church, except for the guy/s who make up the rules and cash the checks, were at some point duped into it so they are just as much victims as everyone else, ESPECIALLY those born into it who don't know any better and never will if they don't know much of the outside world. I was born into a Christian family and believed all the Christian things until the last few years when I have come to have many doubts about not just Christianity but all religions. You are taught it at a young age and believe  what your parents do, until you are old enough to make your own decisions made easier for me with that I can gather outside information and don't have member breathing down my neck and informing on me to some sort of religious police force.

Anyway they were all duped at some point into this and the ones that have broken out have nothing to apologize for and I commend the ones that have the strength to not just escape but then try to fight against it.

[SunnyBeBe]

Before this show on Scientology, I never cared for Leah.  She annoyed me when she was on The Talk. I recall being relieved when she left.  When she first started revealing things about Scientology, I admit that I rolled my eyes a bit, and thought she should wrap it up, HOWEVER, after seeing the first episode, I did a total turnaround in my opinion.  I was impressed by her and I changed my opinion of her.  I respect her right to say what she's been through and what she's discovered.  Everyone has the right to tell their story and to help others tell theirs, when they have been silenced.   From what I've discovered, it seems that a lot of viewers may have reacted similarly. 

[spiderpig]

Another website ran a partial transcript of Leah's interview with Larry King.  Here's one item:

On Scientology claiming that ex-Scientologists are lying -
"They should sue us. It’s as simple as that. If we’re lying. They say this on every outlet they can. They have said this about every person who has spoken out and not one lawsuit has been brought against anybody. They’re a litigious group. If that were true they would simply sue us."

Here's a link to the interview:  http://www.ora.tv/larrykingnow/2016/12/16/leah-remini-on-her-revealing-new-scientology-series

[shirazplease]

I love you Leah, but stop interrupting Mike Rinder!

[Maizie131]

When these former cult members Leah is interviewing break down and start crying (uncontrollably ... they're truly embarrassed), it damn near brings me to tears my heart aches for them so.  I think Leah's doing such a great thing.  Hope to hell all these ex-members collectively can find some way to bring this "church" down.  I'm still amazed the government hasn't yet.  Unreal.

[juliet73]

I wonder if Leah's sister Shannon would ever agree to an interview. She was a newborn when the family moved to Clearwater. According to Leah's book, babies were left in the "nursery" all day. She mentioned she would sneak in there to check on Shannon and she would be laying in a urine soaked crib.  I like Shannon,  but IMO, she comes across as snarky and bitchy... I wonder if that is some of the repercussions from the "nursery" environment and the lack nurturing from her family in her early years. 

[bubbly]

On 12/21/2016 at 2:59 PM, juliet73 said:

I wonder if Leah's sister Shannon would ever agree to an interview. She was a newborn when the family moved to Clearwater. According to Leah's book, babies were left in the "nursery" all day. She mentioned she would sneak in there to check on Shannon and she would be laying in a urine soaked crib.  I like Shannon,  but IMO, she comes across as snarky and bitchy... I wonder if that is some of the repercussions from the "nursery" environment and the lack nurturing from her family in her early years. 

Re: her sister's affect

I remember thinking every time I saw an interview with Rinder/Rathbun/Davis etc... that they all seemed so joyless, angry, sour, defensive,  surly, and short tempered, and, if religion is supposed to bring peace/serenity/happiness, then their religion was for the birds....or attracted extremely nasty individuals.   I think it's just the tone of the cult and it's not the individual's innate personality.

I've been a lurker on the ex-scieno message board, Tony Ortega's underground bunker, OP Clambake, etc...for years, and so many of the former victims (that's what I call them, ymmv and that's cool), you can almost feel their cringe through their writing when they talk about how they behaved when they were in the thick of the insanity that is Scientology.  

[Wings]

I am glad she is doing this documentary but it is not as interesting as I'd hoped.  She is probably hitting some who knew little  along with opening the door to books on the topic.  I don't remember if she has mentioned Going Clear.  I wish HBO weren't coveting it.  I would like to see it on a channel that comes in the basic package on cable and DIRECTV.  

I hope this entire series is more than lowly defectors telling their stories. Unless they held high ranking positions the stories are the same. 

[Sew Sumi]

Disagree. The people Leah has featured, Rinder included, were all highly placed in the CO$, with the exception of Kahn. But her story is important to show the money-grubbing side of things faced by the "public" members. 

Since Miscavige runs the "church" as a dictatorship, these people are the closest we can hope for in terms of CO$  operations.

[Empress1]

On 12/5/2016 at 6:06 PM, Sonoma said:

I'm not saying she has just given up on her career.  Obviously she is not going to turn down a good role.  However, there are risks involved in what she is doing by taking on Scientology.  They do still have connections and some influence within Hollywood.  So she knew what she was getting into by taking on the COS in that it could very well end up costing her a normal career.  But I think she has accepted that.

I would guess she can live comfortably off The King of Queens royalties. It was on for nine or ten seasons and is something like the second or third most syndicated show ever (I see it listed at least 4-5 times a day, on TBS and my local CW affiliate). She may indeed want to work, but she may know that she doesn't have to. If you Google "Leah Remini net worth," the figure floating around is $20M.

She seems very committed to this mission (which I think is great), so I'm guessing she's putting that first now - and it's also paying her, but after seeing the show I really don't think that's her motivation.

[Guest]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 6:06 PM, Sonoma said:

I'm not saying she has just given up on her career.  Obviously she is not going to turn down a good role.  However, there are risks involved in what she is doing by taking on Scientology.  They do still have connections and some influence within Hollywood.  So she knew what she was getting into by taking on the COS in that it could very well end up costing her a normal career.  But I think she has accepted that.

I think there are fewer risks to her career doing this than to doing nothing.  If Scientology still has enough reach to freeze her out of acting jobs then they would have taken that step just by virtue of her leaving.  But even then, her post King Of Queens career wasn't exactly taking the world by storm even though she was a Scientologist for two thirds of it.

I think if she is going to take on Scientology then its much safer to do it as publically as possible.  She needs a platform where anything they do results in an interview on CNN.  Leah Remini doesn't have the clout for that, at least not for a prolonged period.  Leah Remini with a TV show on A&E about Scientology does have the ability to make that happen.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 1:46 PM, lordonia said:

I think it's notable that, as deep into Scientiology as Leah was, she never made own young daughter join. I'm not sure if Sofia went to a school that uses Hubbard's teaching methods.

Leah and Angelo also had Sofia re-baptized Catholic this past September. Leah said the family had "gone home" by returning to their previous religion.

I didn't follow Leah prior to her leaving of the "church", because I've known about the evils of the cult for a long time.  What I do recall (and have no idea of the veracity of it), is a lot of talk about Sofia being an out of control brat, which I assumed (if true) was because she was raised as an adult in a child's body.  If it's at all true, Sofia did suffer somewhat from her parents' involvement in CO$, but thank God Leah protected her from the worst of it.  And hopefully, like Katie, Leah now treats her child like a child, with rules and boundaries.

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 2:09 PM, laurakaye said:

I'm curious about Travolta...if he wanted to leave the COS, could he do so?  Considering that Miscavige seems to hang his hat on the fact that Travolta, Kirstie and Tom are his big celebrity endorsers, what happens if one of those big names decides to leave?

I'm also curious as to why we haven't heard (that I know of) anything from the Big Three regarding Leah.  Or do they think she's beneath them and not worthy of comment?

As vocal as Kirstie and Tom have been in the past, it seems that if a television show attacking their church comes on the air to critical acclaim, they'd be tripping over themselves trying to get TV time to refute everything.  Their silence is almost scarier.

I'm relatively sure that Kirstie has commented on Leah.  Kirstie has a loud mouth and makes her irritations known to the world.  It's definitely known that she cut of all contact with Maksim Chmerkovskiy, simply because his friend Tony was Leah's partner on DWTS.   If Kirstie persists in this behavior, she's going to find herself rather friendless. 

[bubbly]

Kirstie posted on twitter about going to Leah's friend's (fellow Scientologist) house right after Leah left.  She did it to twist the knife because a) she's a bitch and b) she's about as mature as a fifteen year old mean girl and c)she just really wants someone to pay attention to her, even if it's bad attention. 

I used to like her so much when "Look Who's Talking" came out and it's sad she's such a nasty head case.

ETA:  I'm beginning to feel that I should feel much more self conscious that I know way more about Scienos than a regular person should.  I'm slightly obsessed and I own it.

Edited December 26, 2016 by bubbly
Edited for clarity

[zxy556575]

The more I learn about Scientologists, the more amazed I am that Leah's family -- husband, mother, stepdad, sister, brother in law -- all upped and left the church with her. It may be the only time that has ever happened.

I'd love to hear what those conversations were like! Leah wouldn't even have been able to broach the subject without everyone immediately writing up a Knowledge Report and putting themselves in jeopardy for associating with her. Her mom and stepdad were freaking OTVIIIs!

[Sew Sumi]

Leah, don't stop until you've CLEARED the planet of these loonies! We can help by not watching any of the known members' shows or movies. If Leah has another AMA, maybe we can get a list of producers and writers to boycott as well. No money, no new generation, no cult. 

[jennknee]

I didn't ever really have much of an opinion one way or another on Leah before. My only strong reaction to her was that i found her so obnoxious on Hollywood Game Night. She was totally drunk and was constantly complaining other people were breaking rules. I hated it. It was Martin Short on Hollywood Game Night levels of terrible.

But, I'll tell you what. I am forgiving her of ALLLLLLLLL her past HGN sins thanks to this show. I love how ballsy she is being trying to expose the church and think her brand of brash, loud mouthed woman who won't be told to be quiet is exactly the right person for the job.

I would even let her back on HGN now. Granted, I wouldn't watch that episode, but I would allow her to be back on.

[AZChristian]

I'm 3/4 of the way through "Troublemaker" (Leah's autobiography).  It's like watching an episode of the show, but without Mike Rinder.  She is hysterical - and appears to be honest with everybody, regardless of the TRs that are going to be filed against her.

You go, girl!!!

[Maizie131]

36 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I'm 3/4 of the way through "Troublemaker" (Leah's autobiography).  It's like watching an episode of the show, but without Mike Rinder.  She is hysterical - and appears to be honest with everybody, regardless of the TRs that are going to be filed against her.

You go, girl!!!

What are TRs?

[Sew Sumi]

Maybe she meant KRs, which are Knowledge Reports? Tons of them were filed against Leah during her time in the "church." She was also labeled as a PTS (Potential Trouble Source), and finally declared (another official term) an SP (Supressive Person). 

There's SOOOOO much $ci lingo that I've absorbed in this past month down the rabbit hole. I had to put down the book Going Clear (hey, it's 800 pages!) for a few days to clear my OWN head. I can't imagine being immersed in that shit 24/7/365. Ugh. 

[zxy556575]

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I'm 3/4 of the way through "Troublemaker" (Leah's autobiography). It's like watching an episode of the show, but without Mike Rinder. She is hysterical - and appears to be honest with everybody,

The point where I crossed over from admiring Leah's brass balls to loving her completely was not when she asked about Shelly at Tom's wedding, but when she wrote up a Knowledge Report on Miscavige after seeing him play slap and tickle with his personal assistant. She RATTED OUT THE POPE OF SCIENTOLOGY.

The woman has no sense of self-preservation or tact when her sense of right and wrong is challenged. Old school Brooklyn all the way!

Edited January 14, 2017 by lordonia

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, Maizie131 said:

What are TRs?

Sew Sumi was right . . . I meant KRs - Knowledge Reports.  Too many acronyms, which is why I would NOT make a good Scientologist.  Well, that's one reason.  I also have a functioning brain.

[Sew Sumi]

Thanks for making me feel better @AZChristian. I kinda felt in BEC mode by even knowing what you intended. ?

[MamaMax]

I have a copy of Troublemaker, if anyone wants it. PM me your address and I'll send it. Promise I'm not a CoS spy, LOL!! 

[AuntTora]

On 12/8/2016 at 6:33 PM, spiderpig said:

How does she eat/drive/brush her teeth with those things?

How does she...perform basic hygienic maintenance? If you know what I mean.

[CofCinci]

On 12/27/2016 at 2:58 AM, lordonia said:

The more I learn about Scientologists, the more amazed I am that Leah's family -- husband, mother, stepdad, sister, brother in law -- all upped and left the church with her. It may be the only time that has ever happened.

I'd love to hear what those conversations were like! Leah wouldn't even have been able to broach the subject without everyone immediately writing up a Knowledge Report and putting themselves in jeopardy for associating with her. Her mom and stepdad were freaking OTVIIIs!

Yes, I'd love some insight into the family discussing how they would leave together. It's clear that it is rare for an entire family to exit the church and remain intact. 

Leah is actually pretty brace for leaving. I'm sure she knew many people who lost loved ones. She mentions wanting to see her "Goddaughter"? Who is that?

[trow125]

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Leah is actually pretty brace for leaving. I'm sure she knew many people who lost loved ones. She mentions wanting to see her "Goddaughter"? Who is that?

I don't think the goddaughter is related to a famous Scientologist -- probably just the child of a friend of Leah's who is still a member of the CoS.

Quote

"My goddaughter, who is four now, I saw her at a coffee shop in my neighborhood... Her mother saw me and I also didn't want to put her in a (awkward) position."

[zxy556575]

How does the concept of a godchild even apply in Scientology? You take the baby to an auditing session with you and hold the cans over it while promising to disconnect as needed?

[fastiller]

A few days back I posted this on Twitter.

I am almost tempted to let the show know about the p.tv Anti-Co$ community. Wonder how LR &/or MR would feel about what we've said about them.  Especially the -- ahem -- gushing.

Edited January 19, 2017 by fastiller

[Chaos Theory]

Not sure if I should put this here or in the media thread but since I am not actually posting media..... If you want to see how scary Scientology really is go to Twitter and type in #LeahRemini  my GodD!!!!   The crazy shit.  There is a group called The STAND League (I have No Idea what that stands (ha!) for but they post ALOT of anti Leah and Heady stuff.  I mean ALOT!    

Worth a look.  

[Wings]

15 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Not sure if I should put this here or in the media thread but since I am not actually posting media..... If you want to see how scary Scientology really is go to Twitter and type in #LeahRemini  my GodD!!!!   The crazy shit.  There is a group called The STAND League (I have No Idea what that stands (ha!) for but they post ALOT of anti Leah and Heady stuff.  I mean ALOT!    

Worth a look.  

They are helping Leah and Mike tremendously by confirming the craziness that is COS perfectly.  Leah and Mike's calm intelligence is giving them enough rope to hang themselves.  

Edited January 20, 2017 by wings707

[MrSmith]

13 hours ago, fastiller said:

A few days back I posted this on Twitter.

I am almost tempted to let the show know about the p.tv Anti-Co$ community. Wonder how LR &/or MR would feel about what we've said about them.  Especially the -- ahem -- gushing.

Well, Leah's married. So, I don't care if she knows I think she's smokin' hot. :D

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, MrSmith said:

Well, Leah's married. So, I don't care if she knows I think she's smokin' hot. :D

@MrSmith, that's disgusting!

[MrSmith]

4 minutes ago, Lord Donia said:

@MrSmith, that's disgusting!

And so is this! >:D

ETA: Her thigh has been unsubtly Photoshopped in this image. Fortunately, other Photoshopping is less obvious.

Edited January 20, 2017 by MrSmith

[Wings]

16 hours ago, fastiller said:

A few days back I posted this on Twitter.

I am almost tempted to let the show know about the p.tv Anti-Co$ community. Wonder how LR &/or MR would feel about what we've said about them.  Especially the -- ahem -- gushing.

 

Definitely let her know about this board if there is a way to do it though email.  Putting it on twitter will serve to alert clams and we will get bombed with obnoxious posters.  

[Wings]

@MrSmith, now that you mention it I see photo shop all over both pics.  Her waist and right arm in the first one glares, as well.  Beautiful woman and hysterical you posted that @Lord Donia.   The traffic at Stuff mag must have hit a record high since her show aired.  

[MrSmith]

25 minutes ago, wings707 said:

@MrSmith, now that you mention it I see photo shop all over both pics.  Her waist and right arm in the first one glares, as well.  Beautiful woman and hysterical you posted that @Lord Donia.   The traffic at Stuff mag must have hit a record high since her show aired.  

Yeah. That first cover her neck has been lengthened, her left arm has been lengthened, her waist has been given a more accentuated hourglass shape, her right shoulder has been lowered, her right forearm has been lengthened, and they really badly screwed up whatever they were trying to do with her right upper thigh at the bikini. And I'm pretty sure they narrowed her left leg, as well.

ETA: I think the second cover is less altered only because she has a physical prop in that picture.

Edited January 20, 2017 by MrSmith

[Wings]

I agree on all points.  I went over them with a critical eye, too. 

ETA. Her breast in second pic, too.  The shadow underneath has been added.  

Edited January 20, 2017 by wings707

[pawsodoom]

On 12/9/2016 at 1:30 AM, spiderpig said:

I hope Leah and her Nails of Doom continue to go after them hammer and tongs.

Hey now!

I was never a fan of Leah's acting to be honest. But I admire her for taking on COS, especially after hearing what they do to people who leave the church.

[MrSmith]

Yeah, they did a terrible job on that first cover. So bad that her right side (ribcage area) was pulled in toward her center too far and would never connect with her right shoulder. Good catch on that added shadow. I'm sure they did something to her back in the second cover; I just can't tell exactly what.

[Wings]

I just put King of Queens on my DVR, I have never seen her act, thought I would check it out.  

[Uncle JUICE]

Are we being asked to choose between brave and foolhardy as if the two are mutually exclusive?

Look, I think anyone who forcefully speaks out against huge criminal organizations like this one is a brave person and is doing important work. Like someone upthread mentioned, a few years ago I started having doubts about my religion, and then about all religion, and the reason I mention it is if you changed "SCIENTOLOGY" into any number of specifically Christian denomination names, there isn't THAT much difference. The Catholic Church is the second largest landowner in the world, I believe, behind the English Crown. They generate billions every year, too, and they're not a cult...why, exactly? Because their leader didn't dress like a sea captain and believe in space ships or whatever? Is it really that different? If this show was about someone talking to fundamentalist Christians who decided that handling snakes was not a great way to spend your Sundays, we'd be looking at a tragically different reaction, but the effort is just as valid.

This was the argument (what is essential the difference between what I believe and what those Hale-Bopp people believed? What's theessential, not tactical, difference between radical islamists with suicide vests, scientologists with their wacky harassments, and the Christian guy who pipe bombs a planned parenthood?) that ultimately led me to where I am today, a spot I wish I could find ways to help people find for themselves (this runs afoul of my unshakable belief that the religious, regardless of religion, have every right to be religious until they start impinging on someone's civil rights, so I don't go around espousing, but if I could get past that in some way, The world is a much clearer place once you get all of that out of the way. Sorry, but I just wish that more people had the courage to speak out about things like this, and yes, de-convert, or at least let people know that it's okay and it's safe to decide you don't need belief to live a satisfying life. I'm more than willing to coexist, but the problem is the tax exemptions: Scientology gets a tax exemption ONLY because not giving them one means you have to take a hard look at OTHER groups whose tax exempt status is totally (for no reason) unassailable. It's not fair and equal treatment under the law. 

Wow, grandstanded there, really sorry, I just think this show's a little more important than it even gives itself credit for. 

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, wings707 said:

@MrSmith, now that you mention it I see photo shop all over both pics.  Her waist and right arm in the first one glares, as well.  Beautiful woman and hysterical you posted that @Lord Donia.   The traffic at Stuff mag must have hit a record high since her show aired.  

She looks deformed in that first pic.

[DangerousMinds]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Are we being asked to choose between brave and foolhardy as if the two are mutually exclusive?

Look, I think anyone who forcefully speaks out against huge criminal organizations like this one is a brave person and is doing important work. Like someone upthread mentioned, a few years ago I started having doubts about my religion, and then about all religion, and the reason I mention it is if you changed "SCIENTOLOGY" into any number of specifically Christian denomination names, there isn't THAT much difference. The Catholic Church is the second largest landowner in the world, I believe, behind the English Crown. They generate billions every year, too, and they're not a cult...why, exactly? Because their leader didn't dress like a sea captain and believe in space ships or whatever? Is it really that different? If this show was about someone talking to fundamentalist Christians who decided that handling snakes was not a great way to spend your Sundays, we'd be looking at a tragically different reaction, but the effort is just as valid.

This was the argument (what is essential the difference between what I believe and what those Hale-Bopp people believed? What's theessential, not tactical, difference between radical islamists with suicide vests, scientologists with their wacky harassments, and the Christian guy who pipe bombs a planned parenthood?) that ultimately led me to where I am today, a spot I wish I could find ways to help people find for themselves (this runs afoul of my unshakable belief that the religious, regardless of religion, have every right to be religious until they start impinging on someone's civil rights, so I don't go around espousing, but if I could get past that in some way, The world is a much clearer place once you get all of that out of the way. Sorry, but I just wish that more people had the courage to speak out about things like this, and yes, de-convert, or at least let people know that it's okay and it's safe to decide you don't need belief to live a satisfying life. I'm more than willing to coexist, but the problem is the tax exemptions: Scientology gets a tax exemption ONLY because not giving them one means you have to take a hard look at OTHER groups whose tax exempt status is totally (for no reason) unassailable. It's not fair and equal treatment under the law. 

Wow, grandstanded there, really sorry, I just think this show's a little more important than it even gives itself credit for. 

Oh, I definitely have issues with all organized religion. Some are more harmful than others, and it's fantastic that Leah is doing this, but I don't let any organized religion off the hook. And none deserve tax exemption, IMHO.

Edited January 20, 2017 by DangerousMinds

[green]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

... if you changed "SCIENTOLOGY" into any number of specifically Christian denomination names, there isn't THAT much difference. ...

 

What!  You must be kidding me.  They are absolutely 100% different even by definition.  A cult threatens or shuns people leaving, tries to separate their followers from the outside world, tries to separate or hold hostage family members.

In the case of this cult they actively practice hatred to others, harass and threaten people, prevent them from receiving proper medical care, deny that mental illness is a real thing, won't allow them to talk to family members who have left, physically segregate Sea Org members from the outside world, throw people in The Hole where they are denied decent food and living conditions and are forced to crawl around on their hands and knees for hours at a time and clean floors with their tongues and allowed little sleep, denied even an elementary school education let alone college.  They are prevented from even knowing what they are suppose to believe in until they pay about a quarter of a million dollars for lessons leading up to the big reveal.  How can that be remotely compared to the Catholic church or Buddhism or any other religious or spiritual group?

The difference between this group and a Christian with a pipe bomb or a Muslim with a suicide vest is that neither Christianity nor Islam preach or 99.9% of their followers practice such things.  It is against their tenants.  People who do such things have transgressed the teachings and are just plain bad.  Bad people exist in all groups and often try to twist good teaching into bad to rationalize their behavior.  Those people doing such things are doing the exact opposite of the teachings of these faiths.  OTOH Scientologists who harass someone do it with full 100% approval of their cult.

You can't accept a religion being bad based on it's lowest common denominator of screw-ups who have no idea what the mystics at the center of their faith actually said or did.  Or the greedy and powerful using the religion for their own ends.  If you do that you throw out the baby with the bath water.  In a cult there is no baby, just dirty bath water.

And don't need belief?  You do know that Atheism is also a religion aka a belief system that can't be proved except through it's own contrived definitions of proof.   In this case these are based on the senses and sensory objects and mind defining a real world of separate objects out of what physicists think more as a unified field of pure energy.  And this real world exists within a certain range of vibrations our senses -- or instruments extending those senses (to see infrared and ultra violet light for example) -- being the only reality.  And proof is determined by the ability of a separate observer and the observed (scientific method) neither of which impacts the other thus at odds again with advanced theories in physics that "preach" this unified continuum where everything is interconnected totally.  Add in the concept of total consciousness and modern physicists have almost moved up to the knowledge level of the ancient Hindu sages, heh.

Sorry for the long post but everyone does "believes" in something that can only be proved to them through their system of thought.  But people can leave their thought group/religion without losing their parents and siblings in the process.  Without being harassed with people dressed-up like Nazis on their doorstep.  And why is that?  Because religions (including Atheism) do not prohibit their followers to live in the world and be exposed to other knowledge and points of view.  They do not cut them off from loved ones.  A cult brainwashes people day and night and doesn't allow them the chance to think for themselves and punishes them severely if they try to do same.

[Wings]

I just watched one episode of King of Queens.  I wish she hadn't filled her upper lip, she is much prettier with her natural.  

[CatMomma]

4 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Are we being asked to choose between brave and foolhardy as if the two are mutually exclusive?

Look, I think anyone who forcefully speaks out against huge criminal organizations like this one is a brave person and is doing important work. Like someone upthread mentioned, a few years ago I started having doubts about my religion, and then about all religion, and the reason I mention it is if you changed "SCIENTOLOGY" into any number of specifically Christian denomination names, there isn't THAT much difference. The Catholic Church is the second largest landowner in the world, I believe, behind the English Crown. They generate billions every year, too, and they're not a cult...why, exactly? Because their leader didn't dress like a sea captain and believe in space ships or whatever? Is it really that different? If this show was about someone talking to fundamentalist Christians who decided that handling snakes was not a great way to spend your Sundays, we'd be looking at a tragically different reaction, but the effort is just as valid.

This was the argument (what is essential the difference between what I believe and what those Hale-Bopp people believed? What's theessential, not tactical, difference between radical islamists with suicide vests, scientologists with their wacky harassments, and the Christian guy who pipe bombs a planned parenthood?) that ultimately led me to where I am today, a spot I wish I could find ways to help people find for themselves (this runs afoul of my unshakable belief that the religious, regardless of religion, have every right to be religious until they start impinging on someone's civil rights, so I don't go around espousing, but if I could get past that in some way, The world is a much clearer place once you get all of that out of the way. Sorry, but I just wish that more people had the courage to speak out about things like this, and yes, de-convert, or at least let people know that it's okay and it's safe to decide you don't need belief to live a satisfying life. I'm more than willing to coexist, but the problem is the tax exemptions: Scientology gets a tax exemption ONLY because not giving them one means you have to take a hard look at OTHER groups whose tax exempt status is totally (for no reason) unassailable. It's not fair and equal treatment under the law. 

Wow, grandstanded there, really sorry, I just think this show's a little more important than it even gives itself credit for. 

This is such a tired argument.  I'm an atheist, by the way.  So, no love for organized religion here. But, it just isn't the same.  In the majority of organized mainstream religions, a person is free to leave. A person can still have contact with their family. A person isn't held prisoner and forced to LICK A DAMN BATHROOM FLOOR. Babies aren't taken away from their parents and held in horrible conditions. They don't take that person to court for criticizing them publicly or harass them at work or at home.  Are there offshoots that are extremists? Sure. But the majority do not believe or behave this way.

There is no "moderate" Scientology. These are not simply extremists in an overall belief system.  This is a requirement to belong.

BTW, I was raised Methodist. My parents are still Methodists and they know I am an atheist.  We still talk, love each other, and we accept our different beliefs.

These brainwashed Christians love and accept my transgender nephew and are huge liberals.

ETA: I probably seemed a bit harsh.  I believe religion has become a business, but I absolutely believe they should have tax exempt status.  If they pay taxes, then they have a voice in public affairs. Schools, parks, roads, etc. I live in TX. No thanks.

Edited January 20, 2017 by CatMomma

[Uncle JUICE]

3 hours ago, CatMomma said:

This is such a tired argument.  I'm an atheist, by the way.  So, no love for organized religion here. But, it just isn't the same.  In the majority of organized mainstream religions, a person is free to leave. A person can still have contact with their family. A person isn't held prisoner and forced to LICK A DAMN BATHROOM FLOOR. Babies aren't taken away from their parents and held in horrible conditions. They don't take that person to court for criticizing them publicly or harass them at work or at home.  Are there offshoots that are extremists? Sure. But the majority do not believe or behave this way.

There is no "moderate" Scientology. These are not simply extremists in an overall belief system.  This is a requirement to belong.

BTW, I was raised Methodist. My parents are still Methodists and they know I am an atheist.  We still talk, love each other, and we accept our different beliefs.

These brainwashed Christians love and accept my transgender nephew and are huge liberals.

ETA: I probably seemed a bit harsh.  I believe religion has become a business, but I absolutely believe they should have tax exempt status.  If they pay taxes, then they have a voice in public affairs. Schools, parks, roads, etc. I live in TX. No thanks.

I didn't say they were the same. I said they weren't THAT different. I don't think Christians are as a whole 'brainwashed',I didn't say that either. Know what the koran proscribes as the penalty for apostasy?  Death. Imams in mainstream society might deny it,  but it's in the book, and it is not subject to interpretation. The entire Spanish inquisition was based in finding nin-catholics and torturing them. Long time ago, yeah, but at the time sanctioned by the church and biblically jusrified.

I think most people that identify a Christian, or Muslim for that matter, are inventing the dogma they follow out of thin air, because both holy books advocate for violence,  often. Most adverbs today do not.  I'm saying that Christians, mainstream or otherwise, looking down on any other religions, inclusing scientology, because they have a billion year contract and think aliensare coming back for them,  is hypocritical.  Christianity has plenty of things that are actively practiced and believedo too, it's just older and more widely practiced. And businesses don't get a say in schools, roads or parks,  at least not in NJ. Why would a 50 acre estate be tax exempt as a pastoral center? Because the guy who owns it is a pastorin a for profitmega church and his parishioners paid for it? 

I doubt this is the place for a lengthy theological discussion, @green, butbut you like I could discuss in pm. I enjoy exchange of ideas,  I'm not going to try to convert you. The only exception I'll take here is to point out that insinuating atheism needs to prove something is wrongly shifting the burden of proof. Atheism make no extraordinary claim,  it has nothing to prove by definition. Claiming a supernatural exists even though there isn't any proof at all is an extraordinary claim. And your assessment of the atheists moral compass is way off if I read it right. 

[CatMomma]

4 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I didn't say they were the same. I said they weren't THAT different. I don't think Christians are as a whole 'brainwashed',I didn't say that either. Know what the koran proscribes as the penalty for apostasy?  Death. Imams in mainstream society might deny it,  but it's in the book, and it is not subject to interpretation. The entire Spanish inquisition was based in finding nin-catholics and torturing them. Long time ago, yeah, but at the time sanctioned by the church and biblically jusrified.

I think most people that identify a Christian, or Muslim for that matter, are inventing the dogma they follow out of thin air, because both holy books advocate for violence,  often. Most adverbs today do not.  I'm saying that Christians, mainstream or otherwise, looking down on any other religions, inclusing scientology, because they have a billion year contract and think aliensare coming back for them,  is hypocritical.  Christianity has plenty of things that are actively practiced and believedo too, it's just older and more widely practiced. And businesses don't get a say in schools, roads or parks,  at least not in NJ. Why would a 50 acre estate be tax exempt as a pastoral center? Because the guy who owns it is a pastorin a for profitmega church and his parishioners paid for it? 

I doubt this is the place for a lengthy theological discussion, @green, butbut you like I could discuss in pm. I enjoy exchange of ideas,  I'm not going to try to convert you. The only exception I'll take here is to point out that insinuating atheism needs to prove something is wrongly shifting the burden of proof. Atheism make no extraordinary claim,  it has nothing to prove by definition. Claiming a supernatural exists even though there isn't any proof at all is an extraordinary claim. And your assessment of the atheists moral compass is way off if I read it right. 

You read it wrong.

[Uncle JUICE]

12 hours ago, CatMomma said:

You read it wrong.

I we referring to a different  post, greens post, about the moral compass, you don't refer to that in your post. Sorry, unclear on my part perhaps. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Uncle JUICE

[AllyB]

Quote

So, no love for organized religion here. But, it just isn't the same.  In the majority of organized mainstream religions, a person is free to leave. A person can still have contact with their family. A person isn't held prisoner and forced to LICK A DAMN BATHROOM FLOOR. Babies aren't taken away from their parents and held in horrible conditions. 

Up until the late 70s/early 80s that is exactly what it was like in my country thanks to the Catholic church. Google Magdalene Laundries. Even today a simple thing such as getting your child educated without constant religious indoctrination is a very real struggle for minority religion/non religious parents. I'm 'lucky' in that putting my son's name down for a school when he was 4 months old means we will have the privilege of driving for 20 minutes each way to the only non-indoctrination school in our city, even though there are 12 state schools nearer our house, several of which are in short walking distance. My friend who put her son's name down 2 weeks after me is still on the waiting list. 

Tbh, anyone who thinks that Scientology is the only major organised religion to abuse their power in such terrifying ways needs to check their privilege. Ask the ordinary people of Iran, Saudi Arabia, even of Utah just how free to leave they are. Ask the Laundry survivors how free to leave they were. Ask them what happened to their babies forty years ago. Ask the women who died because the weakening heartbeat of a miscarrying foetus was prioritised over their right to live. Oh yeah, you can't they are dead. Google Savita Halappanavar or Sheila Hodgers. Throughout most of the world and most of history religion blights people's lives and civil rights on a daily basis. Scientology is awful and Remini is very brave and doing a wonderful thing with her current work. No doubt. But it's actually not the worst religion when it comes to abuse of it's followers (or the people with the misfortune to live in it's geographic sphere of influence). It's just probably the worst in the USA at present.

Edited January 21, 2017 by AllyB