S12.E03: The Foundry

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I really liked Rick Springfield as Lucifer, which surprised me.  He's a much better actor than I would have given him credit for.  It did seem weird that Lucifer would trust Rowena to do a spell on him, when he was still threatening to kill her.  Seems rather gullible.

I'd chalk that up to ego. With Dad and Amara gone he's back to being the biggest bad on the block, as far as he's concerned, so I doubt it occurred to him a pitiful little witch could do anything to him.

[Binns]

I didn't rewatch yet so didn't catch that she took the journal with her. I'm not too fussed about that- I doubt she's going to burn it or something. She hadn't finished reading it. OTOH, they did make a point of focusing on it a few times. In my mind it's Mary wanting to catch up. Not sure that's a good plan as I imagine there is a lot of details about how hardened John became after her death, and that can't be easy for her to reconcile to the sweet man she was married to. 

[Mick Lady]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

I'll bet money it's a classic British Triumph Bonneville motorcycle.  Mr. Ketch is on their trail.

See sample below.

Ignore the fancy paint job. 

Mick Lady... if you're lurking, can you confirm ID of bike (or maybe Mick)?  Don't you ride?

I can't see enough detail to be sure, but I think that's it's either a Snortin' Norton or a BSA.

 

Check out the difference between the cases and the trans between the two.

Hey, it ain't Japanese! Heh heh...

 

Mick

[catrox14]

Just now, Binns said:

I didn't rewatch yet so didn't catch that she took the journal with her. I'm not too fussed about that- I doubt she's going to burn it or something. She hadn't finished reading it. OTOH, they did make a point of focusing on it a few times. In my mind it's Mary wanting to catch up. Not sure that's a good plan as I imagine there is a lot of details about how hardened John became after her death, and that can't be easy for her to reconcile to the sweet man she was married to. 

I paused for a moment that it seemed to me like she was almost hiding it from the boys and she quickly put it in her bag. It was strange I thought. Maybe she saw Missouri's name and it sparked her memory of being in the house as the ghost or she found something in the journal that means more to her than it would to the boys especially if she has secrets of her own like Dabb has been implying in interviews. I think she's going to Lawrence to the old house.

[bethy]

I know that those kids in heaven felt real to Mary, but they weren't her actual children. I feel like if Mary had really thought through the devastation her death had caused to her real-life children, she might have come to a different solution for her own pain. Like take that little 4yo you adored in heaven and imagine the heartache and loss he would go through if you had died and then look at the man in front of you and realize that he went through that pain and more because of your death. Now, imagine that baby you adored growing up without you and suffering the literal torments of hell because of the deal you made. That's the other man in front of you. So maybe don't just walk out the door and abandon them. 

Huh. I'm actually making myself madder the more I think about it. :) I should stop now.

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think she's going to Lawrence to the old house.

Ooo. That would be cool and makes sense.

[catrox14]

Sooo, I'm kind of obsessed with that stupid motorcycle. I know I said I no longer think it's foreshadowing however I'm not gonna let go of that altogether either. 

Given that Dean just suffered another huge blow with Mary "abandoning" him again, he might decide to take some time out of his own to figure things out. So I'm gonna put the motorcycle back on the table with maybe Dean deciding to go off on his own like Mary did. 

I'm less inclined to think Sam will do that.I think at this point Sam will double down on hunting especially with the HMSS (HEE DEAN!) especially since Sam said that's how they both cope now. 

I might be 100% wrong but I'm gonna still keep that in my back pocket. :)

[rue721]

16 hours ago, enaiowen said:

And as much as it hurt, I'm glad Mary had the decency to be honest about what she was feeling and why she needed to leave instead of sneaking off into the night.

That's a good point. She also told them that she'd be back, she just needed to clear her head. Honestly, I thought she handled it in a decent way. Especially in light of what she's going through, and how difficult it's been for her to feel connected to them.

Also, I think that it's not just that they don't feel like family to her. I think that they're also not the kind of people that she would want to spend time with otherwise. Mary doesn't particularly like hunters. She fell in love with John specifically because he was different from the hunters she'd known and could offer her a different kind of life. Even now she talks about John being sweet, being a good father, and seems to really, really miss him (or rather, really, really miss the man she remembered, who was pretty different from the man he actually became imo. But she doesn't know that, really, so it's probably irrelevant right now).

At least on a surface level, I think that Sam and Dean are just not her kind of people. They're strangers to her, and they're not even the kind of strangers that she'd ever want to get to know better or hang around with for fun -- if she weren't related to them, anyway.

It probably also didn't help that Sam and Dean were being really suffocating on that hunt. I mean, it's understandable that they were a little clingy and hovering, but I think that it alienated her and made her even more desperate to get some space.

8 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Oh, and was that sarcasm from Cas?  When he was talking about Crowley's reason for hunting Lucifer?  That was... odd.  Took me out of the episode for a second.  It sounded like he was still being possessed by Lucifer.

That took me out of the episode, too. I also got worried that he was being possessed by Lucifer when he said that. It just didn't seem like Cas at all. But then it turned out it was just an OOC moment. Ah well.

4 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

It just seemed strange to me that they'd let her walk out the door without making sure she would at least be able to feed herself and find a safe place to stay.  I'd have nightmares wondering if she was sleeping on the street somewhere.  And since she's already shown herself to be open to taking hunts, and she has the journal for information, that would add another layer to my concern.

I didn't think it was strange, because I think they were just so devastated that she was saying goodbye that they couldn't think very clearly. You could see both of them struggling not to lose it.

I think that in the next episode or two, Sam especially is liable to start getting concerned about how she's doing. But in the heat of the moment, imo it's natural that practical worries like that didn't occur to them.

That said, I don't think that Mary would have wanted them to do yet more fussing over her anyway. That's part of what she was trying to get away from. And Mary had obviously decided this and prepped for her departure beforehand, so she probably already has an idea of where she's headed and how she'll get there. That was the worst part imo. That packed bag made it clear that she had an escape plan in place.

[ahrtee]

Since IIRC Dean had given Mary his cell phone at some point during the hunt (can't remember when exactly), my headcanon says that she still has it; and it not only has Sam's number programmed in, but both boys know the number so they can call her any time they feel the need to check up on her.  Not that it would make them any less worried....

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just watched:  It's all random up in my brain anyway...

• The End: Awwww...Dean.  Damn, give that man a big, group hug.  I felt bad for Sammy too, but Dean just broke my heart.
• I liked the beginning, with Mary and Dean on a road trip and...oh wait, who was that other guy?  That's right.  Sam was there.  ;)   For a brief moment it almost seemed like it was going to turn into the Mary and Dean Show and leave Sam out in the cold.  (Don't worry.  I knew it wouldn't really happen.)  I could tell before they left that she was not thinking "family hunting trip! Whoo-Hoo" at the bunker.
• Mary's right.  The Bunker is not her home.
• Really Nice ghost case though.  I like the call back to early seasons on that.  Legitimately creepy house and beginning.
• I really liked seeing all the little ghost children ascend.  Bye-Bye Lucas.  I'm going to hold on to that bit of hope while I think of Mary leaving Dean.  Again.
• I liked both boys interactions with Mary.
• Boy!  Did I like Cass this episode also!  I mean, I've kind of always liked his character, but I like it even more this season already!  And I do like snarky-somewhat-helpful Crowley.  As he said, (paraphrasing since I can't remember exactly): It's been awhile since they tried to kill each other.  That was a fun road trip with an angel.  (Unlike the Hannah crap a couple/few seasons back.)  
• Hm..nice touch for Rowena to say that she'd be there to help shove Lucifer back in his cage once they got him cornered.  
• Lucifer was not too smart though.   Really.  He should have been smarter.  I mean, you don't practically tell the person doing a spell that you don't understand that you're pretty much going to kill them when they are done.  What kind of incentive to do a good job is that?  
• I understand what Mary was saying at the end, (and agree to an extent) but DAMN.  And why didn't they ask where she was going when she said she had to leave?  That would have been my first question.  Where?  See how easy that was Sam?  Dean?  Bueller?   Anyone?  

[Hana Chan]

The disassociation that Mary is feeling is really interesting to contemplate and I'm trying to focus more about what is going on in her head and not so much how it affected Sam and Dean (who are understandably hurt that she could not be happy with them). I think that intellectually Mary knows these are her grown sons. Her heart, though... that's still back in her place in Heaven where Sam was still an infant in her arms and Dean was a little boy for who she still cut the crusts off his sandwiches. They were safe from supernatural perils and John was her loving husband. They were together and whole.

Now she's been shoved forward many years into a world that she's got no grasp on. Her husband is dead and her sons ended up raised in the life that she wanted to badly to keep them away from. Rather than being children who's biggest worries would have been when his favorite cartoon would be on (for Dean) and having a clean diaper (Sam), they've lived enough horror, loss and tragedy for multiple lifetimes. Her baby is now a six and a half foot wall of muscle and her oldest who she remembered in footie pjs has taken John's place as the family leader. There is a tremendous disconnect for Mary. Rationally she knows that these are her sons and I see that she does love them (at least in her head). Her heart, though, is still yearning for that quiet, peaceful life where her sons were safe and hadn't suffered all that they did and she could keep them from harm.

It's going to take time for Mary to figure out how to reconcile these two perspectives of her sons. I know that it's painful for Sam and Dean, and it's understandable why they might feel some rejection over her behavior, but it's completely understandable to me that she needs to spend a lot of time thinking before she's going to be able to really accept this life now. Reading John's journal, which likely would have at least a little information about her children's upbringing will help bridge that gap for her.

[sarthaz]

Heartbreaking is definitely the word for this episode. It kicked me in the feels.

That said, I hate when they make the boys stupid to advance the plot.  They've done this a lot lately to put female characters in a position to save the day (instead of just writing strong female characters).  In this episode, Mary clearly states that the boy didn't mean her harm, which is a banner red flag that there's another bad spirit around.  Besides simply trusting their mother (a hunter), they've also experienced this kind of situation in like 5 episodes already.  But no ... they ignore the obvious evidence that more is going on so Mary can shine.  TNT recently showed Swap Meat, where Dean becomes a complete moron for half an episode, so this nonsense is fresh in my mind. :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Thank you for the reminder! I loved Mary's haircut but, at the same time I found myself a bit distracted because she reminded me if Charlie. 

Eep!  Thank you for that reminder!  Mary did remind me of Charlie a time or two during the hunt.  (IMO, that's not really a good thing - she was a little too Mary Sue at those times.) 

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

She had enough life skills to go off and hunt on her own.  It seemed to me she did not want them coming after her. She had her bag packed and ready to go.  I want to know is how far she thinks she's gonna get when she's a hour from anything. Is she going to take one of the cars in the garage? I mean it's not like the bunker is particularly close to town.

I thought that packed bag was the one she brought back from the ghost hunt - not one she specially prepared in advance for leaving.  (Dean talking about taking a shower and a nap right beforehand made me think they'd just gotten back to the bunker.)  

18 hours ago, enaiowen said:

She doesn't know these men at all.  

Someone else mentioned it, but Sam's "We're right here, Mom" at the end was heartbreakingly sad.  

12 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I hope we don't have another season of the conflict coming from the Winchesters themselves.  I really love it when they work together against an outside force.  It's so much more fun to watch.  I tire of seeing the emotional pain, no matter how well the actors play it.

^^So much this right here.  

[pixelcat]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So wait, a stinking minute. Are they trying to tell me that all Rowena had to do was find a spell to blast Lucifer far, far away, and she never DID IT WHEN HE WAS inside Cas?  When she could have? Did I miss something here?

As someone else mentioned, it would've blasted both Lucifer and Castiel away.  Maybe she didn't know the spell at the time, or maybe it was a combo spell that she had to weaken the vessel first before blasting him away.  It might not have ever occurred to her to try something like it, until Lucifer brought up the fact that he was tired of vessels destroying themselves and wanted to strengthen it.  Sometimes being under a lot of pressure can really inspire you!  That said, go Rowena!

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I want to know why they focused on the motorcycle. That can't have been for nothing. Especially since Dean has never really shown a HUGE interest in motorcycles.

I too was curious about this.  The only other time he even said anything about a motorcycle was during the Oz episode.  I don't think he made any sort of comment when they were investigating the Boyle's Boys biker bar massacre and there were a bunch of them around.  I like the theory of Mr. Ketch, but I figure with his suitcase and his portable weapons locker, he seems more like he needs a town car for that.  Maybe someone following them reporting back to him?

11 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Oh, and was that sarcasm from Cas?  When he was talking about Crowley's reason for hunting Lucifer?  That was... odd.  Took me out of the episode for a second.  It sounded like he was still being possessed by Lucifer.

Also took me out of the episode.  Not only did he get sarcastic, all of his facial expressions reminded me of how Lucifer was when possessing him.  I kept thinking this is not how Cas behaves so why is he doing it now?  Also please stop.

My heart broke for Dean at the end, when he pulls away and won't let her touch him.  I half expected him to shout something like "Dad died for me, because of what YOU started, and you can't even be bothered to STAY?"  But that's the Dean we've seen around Sam, when he's angry and hurt.  This Dean was truly hurt, I don't think he has the power in him to be angry at her, at least not yet.  He wouldn't even look at her.

I saw her walk out with the journal and thought "I really hope they scanned in all of those pages, or at least behaved like Bobby the Paranoid Bastard and made a photocopy."  But having had the journal for a decade now, they probably have most if not all of it memorized.  I can't even remember the last time they needed to reference it.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think she's going to Lawrence to the old house.

This is the EXACT thought I had when Dean told her she was home, and she said "No I'm not".  Although I'm not sure what she would gain by going to the house, unless it is to talk to Missouri.  I wonder if the family they met in "Home" is still living in the house?  I figured this is why she would eventually leave, that it's all too overwhelming for her to deal with all at once.  Pretty much everything @Hana Chan said above, but much better than I could.  I didn't like the mention of "in Heaven" in this episode though, when two episodes ago she couldn't remember anything of where she'd been.  Is this a clue that she's starting to remember things?  Or just writer fail?

About the actual case, I think I will need to watch it again, it felt disjointed to me.  I also didn't believe that Dean would not shoot possessed Mary with a rock salt gun, yes it stings but it won't kill her and it's the quickest way to get rid of the spirit (he shot a teenage girl last year with it!)  Maybe a little of what @sarthaz said above, stupid to advance the plot.

On a bit of a shallow note, I love Rowena's nail polish & Sam's hair.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought that packed bag was the one she brought back from the ghost hunt - not one she specially prepared in advance for leaving.  (Dean talking about taking a shower and a nap right beforehand made me think they'd just gotten back to the bunker.)  

It was the same bag and I think it's reasonable to deduce that she had what she needed in the bag the entire time. She left it on the table instead of taking it to her room when she returned. That's what I mean by having it packed and ready to go. IMO, she had made the decision to leave before they went on the hunt and the hunt was her way of trying to fit in. When that didn't go a way she anticipated, it affirmed her lingering feelings that something wasn't right for her. IOW, she didn't decide on the spur of the moment to leave.

5 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

I too was curious about this.  The only other time he even said anything about a motorcycle was during the Oz episode.  I don't think he made any sort of comment when they were investigating the Boyle's Boys biker bar massacre and there were a bunch of them around.  I like the theory of Mr. Ketch, but I figure with his suitcase and his portable weapons locker, he seems more like he needs a town car for that.  Maybe someone following them reporting back to him?

You may have missed my follow up post but I sort of mostly changed my mind and think it is was just a shout out to Prince. But maybe it is foreshadowing. I dunno.

Edited October 29, 2016 by catrox14

[pixelcat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You may have missed my follow up post but I sort of mostly changed my mind and think, mostly, that it is was just a shout out to Prince.

Oops I did see that and I meant to comment on it.  Apparently all of the Prince shout outs went waaaaay over my head, had no idea that was even going on until you posted about it.  Guess a re-watch is in order, as I am not totally convinced that's what the motorcycle was about :)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was the same bag and I think it's reasonable to deduce that she had what she needed in the bag the entire time. She left it on the table instead of taking it to her room when she returned. That's what I mean by having it packed and ready to go. IMO, she had made the decision to leave before they went on the hunt and the hunt was her way of trying to fit in. When that didn't go a way she anticipated, it affirmed her lingering feelings that something wasn't right for her. IOW, she didn't decide on the spur of the moment to leave.

Actually, I was thinking she wasn't really going to go on the hunt, but used it for an excuse to get away. But then the boys decided to make it a family affair and she couldn't back out. And when they got home, she just couldn't hide her feelings anymore.

Edited October 29, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Oops I did see that and I meant to comment on it.  Apparently all of the Prince shout outs went waaaaay over my head, had no idea that was even going on until you posted about it.  Guess a re-watch is in order, as I am not totally convinced that's what the motorcycle was about :)

Having rewatched it now, I think it was a shout out to Prince. They have been singing Purple Rain at the end of SNS now since his death. They must all be big fans. JMO though. Dean and Sam at the end just heart broken for them. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

As someone else mentioned, it would've blasted both Lucifer and Castiel away.  Maybe she didn't know the spell at the time, or maybe it was a combo spell that she had to weaken the vessel first before blasting him away.  It might not have ever occurred to her to try something like it, until Lucifer brought up the fact that he was tired of vessels destroying themselves and wanted to strengthen it.  Sometimes being under a lot of pressure can really inspire you!  That said, go Rowena

Eh this is Rowena. She's Crowley's mother. She's at least one step or 10  ahead of everyone else. I don't buy that she didn't have that spell memorized ever since she got the book of the damned. 

I realize the practical reasons in the show for Castiel why they couldn't use it then, but my problem is really more with introducing a HUGE LUCIFER SOLUTION that is really JUST A SPELL (seriously. Spells just fix everything now? WTF? I hate that shit. It's not interesting to me)  It was also revealed that she could paralyze Lucifer. They would need a vessel who was willing to sacrifice themselves like maybe Metatron could have offered himself in penance to be Lucifer's vessel once they found Casifer who after being tortured by Amara, might have been willing to use Metatron as a vessel. Trap Metafir in a angel trap, paralyze him long enough for Rowena to do her thing and blast him to wherever.

I get it. It was all something thought of after the fact but it makes it a might awkward now. YMMV.

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, I was thinking she wasn't really going to go on the hunt, but used it for an excuse to get away. But then the boys decided to make it a family affair and she couldn't back out. And when they got home, she just couldn't hide her feelings anymore.

Ohh, that makes sense too. I can see that.

[catrox14]

I'm also wondering if she might not be looking for a way to get back to Heaven.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm thinking that maybe they're just paving the way for Mary to die at some point this season, without our having to feel too bad for her or Sam and Dean.  She'll be back with her young family, and they'll know that she's "safe" and happy.  I wondered how they could bring her back and then kill her off without it being too tragic, and I think this is how.

In the meantime, I don't see Dean just bouncing back from this.  I'm sure we'll get some sort of reconciliation scene later in the season, but for now I think her leaving has just reinforced every bad feeling he has about himself.  I know that Sam's hurting too, but Dean's the one who's always felt rejected and unimportant.  Sam has always had the confidence to leave and be on his own, whereas Dean was always the one being left.  I can see this making Dean more reckless again with his own life.

[ParadoxLost]

As Rowena is circling Rick Springfield to strengthen Lucifer's vessel, I'm thinking thank goodness he's been aged by his make up so they can show the results of Rowena's spell.

This isn't a slam on Springfield.  I'm just confronting that I'm apparently older than I am in my mind. 

[SueB]

This bike is so NOT the bike from last night.

 

I saw a lot of shout outs, but I'm going with "British" for British MoL. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by SueB

[SueB]

5 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I can't see enough detail to be sure, but I think that's it's either a Snortin' Norton or a BSA.

 

Check out the difference between the cases and the trans between the two.

Hey, it ain't Japanese! Heh heh...

 

Mick

Thanks for checking!!

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

This bike is so NOT the bike from last night.

Erm, I didn't say the bike was the same bike. I said it was a motorcycle. A shout out doesn't have to be the exact same thing to be an homage. The symbols on the room divider aren't the exact Prince symbol, they are similar. Purple Funk sign was written reminscent of the Purple Rain album cover.  Regardless, the bike in Purple Rain is customized with a bunch of accessories: **

Quote

Prince, 57, rode a customized 1981 Honda CM400 Hondamatic in Purple Rain, his breakthrough movie of 1984. The bike, with its purple Craig Vetter fairing, high handlebars and passenger seat with sissy bar, became an icon of the film and was prominently featured on movie posters and album covers.

If you strip that bike down  you have this.

Quote

Quote

 

**From the USA today

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/28/princes-motorcycle-icon-purple-rain/83627830/

Edited October 29, 2016 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

I'm betting the bike belongs to one of the BMOL people.  I would be surprised if they didn't keep an eye on what the Winchesters were up to after they let them go.  I do agree it's not Mr. Ketch; for some reason, the little bit we saw didn't give a motorcyclist vibe to me.  But I bet whoever it is gives themselves away in the near future (before we've had a chance to forget about the motorcycle), and whoever it is will be riding that bike.

[DittyDotDot]

So I re-watched it, and despite it's flaws, I still enjoyed the family hunting trip. I especially found it cute Sam was going to fry fresh bacon for Mary. And how delighted Dean was to in sharing his snacks with her. It's like they're 8-year-olds trying to please mommy. Pretty cute. And then it got all sad. But, that's kinda Supernatural, isn't it?

Plus, ::Snort:: Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags! Ah, Dean, you always find the right words! ;)

[Quark]

I love how Rowena was able to stop Lucifer. She is just fabulous.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Re-watch even randomer thoughts:

• I like that the yuppy millienials at least called 911.  That's pretty rare that people have that presence of mind on these shows sometimes.
• That doll was seriously creepy.
• In light of Mary's revelation at the end - how the dad who walled himself off was killing the children who moved in the house to replace his own who died - why would the young couple be victims at all?  Doesn't really make sense.
• Mary was wearing her wedding ring on a chain around her neck.  Personally, I think that's odd.  It's not been that long since she 'came back'.  Why would she take if off in the first place?  Widowers usually wear their rings for a long time, right?  At least, if the marriage was a good one.  (my dad did.)
• Liked the reminder from Cas that 'angels don't sleep.'  Also kind of cool that Mary calls him by his full name, Castiel.  Just so used to hearing Dean (and Sam?) call him Cas, that the full name is nice to hear.
• Mary didn't even take her hair out of the barrette, clip, whatever she was using to pull it back, before she started cutting it.  Huh.  Pretty dumb.
• It makes me smile every time I see the guys eating Corn Flakes for breakfast.  :)  Don't really know why (when Wheaties would be so much more appropriate for Sam) but that it is so quintessentially American.  
• The redacted letter (grr!)  There are ways to read that, you know....
• Okay, so the whole 'Mary can't deal with the internet' thing was really bugging me, so I had to look it up.  AOL was founded in 1983 - same year she 'died'.  And before that, inTRAnets (such as on college campuses) were widespread.  Now, unless she'd been completely out of the loop for a couple years before her death, she'd already know something about how the internet worked.  And extrapolating from localized intranet to internet is really not that hard.
• Sam's hair was looking really good.  REALLY good.
• WHAT?!  They allowed Mom to call them trainees?  Shit.  Sam and Dean should have called Mary the tag-a-long trainee.   Otherwise, am I supposed to believe that Mary, hunter back in the day, 1970-something Vietnam era, doesn't know anything about the internet, suddenly is an expert at posing as a modern day FBI agent?  Sure.
• Not.
• See, here's the thing - the coroner would have had to have been a Pathologist (I'm pretty sure.) There's a 7 year internship for Pathologists, at least.  That would make him minimum of 32.  (And that would be fresh off his internship with a city head coroner job).  And where were they at?  Somewhere in Minnesota?  If there's not a local one, they send it to the next nearest large city.  Just not buying that kid at all.  
• Still enjoyed the Cas/Crowley scenes.  Someone else mentioned it, but why would Lucifer bother to heal Vince's sister at all?  Doesn't make sense.  And it bugs the heck out of me that they put a glimpse of a scene about it in the "Then" trailer that wasn't actually in the previous episode.  But I do like that Cas stopped Crowley from taking away the actual good Lucifer had done toward Vince's sister.
• So...the guys, who are SO worried about Mary that Dean has to ask if she can handle the EMF detector (seriously?), both go off in the same direction and don't make sure that Mary follows?  Right.  
• Super-Hunter Mary doesn't notice or pay attention to the flickering light bulb or cold breath (air) ?  Massive Hunting Fail.
• The Poodle Google Phone commercial is disturbing.  I won't be getting one.
• I was not really impressed with Rick Springfield as Lucifer.  So if he's gone for good, nbd for me.  The Poodle Google Phone was way scarier.
• I don't think I've ever heard the bunker door screech when opening (haven't they got any WD-40?) or slam that loudly before.  

[ahrtee]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for a nitpicks and random thoughts on your random thoughts:

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It makes me smile every time I see the guys eating Corn Flakes for breakfast.  :)  Don't really know why (when Wheaties would be so much more appropriate for Sam) but that it is so quintessentially American.  

I think Sam would be eating Bran Flakes.  Dean would be eating Cap'n Crunch. (Is that still around?)

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, so the whole 'Mary can't deal with the internet' thing was really bugging me, so I had to look it up.  AOL was founded in 1983 - same year she 'died'.  And before that, inTRAnets (such as on college campuses) were widespread.  Now, unless she'd been completely out of the loop for a couple years before her death, she'd already know something about how the internet worked.  And extrapolating from localized intranet to internet is really not that hard.

Well, it took quite a while for the technology to actually be used, much less generally adopted.  In the early 1980s, the hottest thing in business was stand-alone word processors (like Wang) with a centralized CPU so you could share documents in a work group.  

In 1985 I was at the University of Arizona, studying "Library and Information Science" which was supposedly teaching the (then) cutting-edge technology for research.  And, while the university library did have an online catalog (which was fairly complicated to use) it was only available within the library building itself.  Aside from a library consortium for cataloging, there was no connection with outside sources, much less ways to research in them.  And, once there was a sort of internet (not widely available to the public, even in libraries, till about 1988, IIRC) you had to be specially-trained to search, because you had to know Boolean search terms (it wasn't intuitive.)  So there may have been some tech geeks who were ahead of the curve, but the general public, no.  Once they simplified the searches and more places connected and started digitizing and uploading their resources, internet use exploded.  But it wasn't till the 1990s, really.  

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Still enjoyed the Cas/Crowley scenes.  Someone else mentioned it, but why would Lucifer bother to heal Vince's sister at all?  Doesn't make sense.  And it bugs the heck out of me that they put a glimpse of a scene about it in the "Then" trailer that wasn't actually in the previous episode.  

 Well, if (as they showed in the "Then" trailer) he promised it as part of Vince's saying yes, maybe (as an angel? Or honoring deals like a crossroads demon?) he felt obliged to follow through. Since he apparently didn't care one way or the other (according to the sister) it seems like he was just fulfilling an obligation to the letter, not the spirit.  I'm assuming it was cut from the previous ep and they decided, whoops, we needed that connection so they could find out where Luci had gotten to, so, presto--it showed up again.

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think I've ever heard the bunker door screech when opening (haven't they got any WD-40?) or slam that loudly before.

Maybe they purposely made it squeaky/loud so no one can sneak in on them again? (Considering how often the badguys got in when they weren't looking, it's not a bad idea...)  Cheaper than getting it re-keyed, I guess.

Edited October 30, 2016 by ahrtee
I'm showing my age...

[mertensia]

Yeah,  I was in college in 1983 and no one really used computers, except at computer labs to write papers on. The University of Wisconsin-Madison had a cataloging system on computers but they were, as I recall, maddeningly hard to use to find specific topics. Sure Ernest Hemingway was a piece of cake but paleoethnobotany? Yeah, good luck. 

As for coroners, I'm not sure about Minnesota but they certainly don't have to be pathologists everywhere in the U.S..

[Splash]

Even though computers existed in the 80s, I can't think of when Mary would have had an opportunity to learn how to use one.  She definitely wouldn't have been on the internet, in any form, simply because the ability to access it wouldn't have existed.  I grew up in a small town in the midwest and we didn't have a way to access the internet until the mid-90s, because no company offered it.  And by "we", I don't just mean individuals; my high school didn't get internet access until 97, so her not knowing anything about technology didn't strike me as odd.

I really enjoyed the episode, mainly because it felt more like an earlier season episode.  They took a case that had no relation to the season's mytharc, got out of the bunker, and stayed in a random motel and I hope we have more of that happening this season.  I feel like they were out in the world and interacting with people unrelated to a case more in earlier seasons and I miss that.  What they do is isolating enough without them locking themselves in the bunker until it's time to interrogate someone.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, so the whole 'Mary can't deal with the internet' thing was really bugging me, so I had to look it up.  AOL was founded in 1983 - same year she 'died'.  And before that, inTRAnets (such as on college campuses) were widespread.  Now, unless she'd been completely out of the loop for a couple years before her death, she'd already know something about how the internet worked.  And extrapolating from localized intranet to internet is really not that hard.

As mentioned above, the internet existed, but wasn't actually usable or available to the general public. When I graduated high school in 1991, our high school had all MS Dos based computers still.  I grew up in a rural community, but I didn't know anyone who used the internet or had email until I went to college.

When I went to college, I had a standalone word processor and only knew one student who had an actual computer; they were just not affordable for most of us back then. Most students went to the computer lab to type up their papers and a few had email, but there wasn't very many who did. I remember the internet was very cumbersome to navigate back then and finding useful information was difficult. It was easier to go to the library and do your research the old fashioned way. This was the early '90s, mind you. 

Things started to change really fast in the mid-90s. That's when the cost of owning your own computer became viable for most households. 

I totally buy that Mary didn't know about the internet, that was a totally different world than she lived in. She was pretty quick to pick up on that laptop being a computer, though, so she isn't a total nube about technology.

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Still enjoyed the Cas/Crowley scenes.  Someone else mentioned it, but why would Lucifer bother to heal Vince's sister at all?  Doesn't make sense.  And it bugs the heck out of me that they put a glimpse of a scene about it in the "Then" trailer that wasn't actually in the previous episode.  But I do like that Cas stopped Crowley from taking away the actual good Lucifer had done toward Vince's sister.

I think they ADR'd that line about healing her sister in the teaser just so Cass and Crowley could have a trail to follow. Maybe they're trying to say that Lucifer fulfills his contracts, just like Crowley? Still, pretty contrived and silly, if you ask me. But then the whole plot just got on my nerves in this episode, so I might not have the right angle on it.

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think Sam would be eating Bran Flakes.  Dean would be eating Cap'n Crunch. (Is that still around?)

Cap'n Crunch is indeed still around. 

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

See, here's the thing - the coroner would have had to have been a Pathologist (I'm pretty sure.) There's a 7 year internship for Pathologists, at least.  That would make him minimum of 32.  (And that would be fresh off his internship with a city head coroner job).  And where were they at?  Somewhere in Minnesota?  If there's not a local one, they send it to the next nearest large city.  Just not buying that kid at all.  

I believe the episode was set in St. Paul. Pretty big city. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 hours ago, Splash said:

Even though computers existed in the 80s, I can't think of when Mary would have had an opportunity to learn how to use one.  She definitely wouldn't have been on the internet, in any form, simply because the ability to access it wouldn't have existed.  I grew up in a small town in the midwest and we didn't have a way to access the internet until the mid-90s, because no company offered it.  And by "we", I don't just mean individuals; my high school didn't get internet access until 97, so her not knowing anything about technology didn't strike me as odd.

I really enjoyed the episode, mainly because it felt more like an earlier season episode.  They took a case that had no relation to the season's mytharc, got out of the bunker, and stayed in a random motel and I hope we have more of that happening this season.  I feel like they were out in the world and interacting with people unrelated to a case more in earlier seasons and I miss that.  What they do is isolating enough without them locking themselves in the bunker until it's time to interrogate someone.

Yeah, I graduated college in 1981 and had never as much as touched a computer by then. Married and had first son in 1985...We didn't get our first computer until, I think, 1993, and didn't actually get internet at home until 1995-ish...Granted, there were probably people out there quite a bit ahead of that curve, but I don't find not having learned how to navigate a computer and use the internet by 1985 to be particularly slow.

Good point about why the guy's spirit would kill that couple who went into the house...Maybe the vengeful feelings got too strong, and in the absence of more children to kill he began luring in other victims just to satiate himself.

I'll have to rewatch the episode, though, as I think I missed a bit of the end. Was watching it with my (younger) son and we started talking right in the last two minutes when Mary said she had to go away. I think I sort of took it that she wanted to go back to heaven, though did also manage to pick up on it not being permanent, so I was a bit confused. Good to come here and find that it was, indeed, just a matter of getting away for a bit. Was that the bunker door making all that racket as she left? In my confused mind it sounded almost like a gunshot, but I couldn't imagine Sam & Dean just sitting around looking sad in that scenario. Obviously I can't be trusted not to jump to erroneous conclusions when left to myself. Didn't even ask my son as I more or less knew I was reading something wrong and didn't want to admit to it! LOL 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Good point about why the guy's spirit would kill that couple who went into the house...Maybe the vengeful feelings got too strong, and in the absence of more children to kill he began luring in other victims just to satiate himself.

Well, if the guy was getting his power from the kids he killed, perhaps he was just running low and nabbed the yuppies for a quick pick-me-up? Or, maybe it was one of the kids trying to get someone's attention and not the "dad" ghost who killed them?

Edited October 30, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So...the guys, who are SO worried about Mary that Dean has to ask if she can handle the EMF detector (seriously?), both go off in the same direction and don't make sure that Mary follows?  Right.  

Yes, this was dumb, but this is the standard move in every horror/mystery/drama story ever written.  What was more ridiculous than Mary (an actual hunter) proceeding alone into that room with the weird glowing lightbulb, was the fact that that young woman did the same thing.  No way in hell would I have continued on the way she did.  She could easily have waited until the police got there.  But then we wouldn't have a story.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, if the guy was getting his power from the kids he killed, perhaps he was just running low and nabbed the yuppies for a quick pick-me-up? Or, maybe it was one of the kids trying to get someone's attention and not the "dad" ghost who killed them?

He killed them so no one would find out about what he was doing/had done.  The young boy was trying to get someone's attention with the crying baby sound, but the man was determined to kill whoever tried to help or "take his kids away".

[Jynnan tonnix]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He killed them so no one would find out about what he was doing/had done.  The young boy was trying to get someone's attention with the crying baby sound, but the man was determined to kill whoever tried to help or "take his kids away".

That makes sense!

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He killed them so no one would find out about what he was doing/had done.  The young boy was trying to get someone's attention with the crying baby sound, but the man was determined to kill whoever tried to help or "take his kids away".

Right, had forgotten that. Thanks!

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Super-Hunter Mary doesn't notice or pay attention to the flickering light bulb or cold breath (air) ?  Massive Hunting Fail.

I've yet to see Mary as super-hunter. I mean, she obviously has good instincts and all, but she lucked into killing the British muscle, got her ass handed to her by Lady Toni and almost got herself killed by a ghost. I'm not sure she's been shown to be all that super, myself. I think she's been shown to be out of her element, but has enough knowledge to be able to fake it.

[jelaine]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Mary was wearing her wedding ring on a chain around her neck.  Personally, I think that's odd.  It's not been that long since she 'came back'.  Why would she take if off in the first place?  Widowers usually wear their rings for a long time, right?  At least, if the marriage was a good one.  (my dad did.)

I thought it was John's ring.  It looked more like a man's ring to me.

[rue721]

My boyfriend started college in 1997, and that was the first time he used the internet. His parents just got internet for the first time a month ago when his dad retired! I don't think that Mary would have come into much contact with computers or the internet pre-1983.

Anyway, I dispute that Sam would eat Bran flakes. I'm thinking Flax Plus. He needs the fat from the nuts and seeds! Or he might possibly eat Kashi. That stuff is nasty, though. It's like eating cardboard, except that it's also rock hard. Give me Frosted Mini-Wheats any day! ;)

[SueB]

@Rulerofallsurvey  I like your rewatch items!  I wanted to comment on a couple that really got me thinking when I watched the episode.

The hair: I thought she was being clever by starting with the pulled up bit.  That way she knew she could still pull her hair up (like she did later).  Cutting that piece first set the length for the overall bob. Of course, it may have been completely random.  

The ring: TOO SOON.  OTOH, maybe one of the points was that Mary rushed her whole transition-to-living and that's what got her in trouble.  She cut her hair, put aside her ring (her old life), and dived into hunting.  And when she got there, she felt she sucked because she had to be rescued by the boys.  

More later, I have a flight to catch. But I have really been cogitating on this episode and have much to say....

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, jelaine said:

I thought it was John's ring.  It looked more like a man's ring to me.

If it is John's then that means the boys kept it from when he died but I can't remember it ever being shown in the show, which doesn't mean they didn't keep it, of course. I'll pretty disappointed, if they always had it but the show never gave us a glimpse of it in John's journal or Sam's memory box or Dean stashing it in the Impala.  Or maybe there was a glimpse and I just don't remember. 

I hope it wasn't John's ring, mostly because if it was that is some lousy directing and editing to rob the audience of such an important emotional moment for Mary finding it, putting it on a chain, not to mention the boys seeing her wearing it. But sometimes this show does fail on some bigger moments like that.

Edited October 30, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I think it's her ring. That's not to say they didn't keep John's ring--nor do I feel cheated out of seeing a scene of Mary finding it--but she clearly had a ring on her finger when she was looking through John's journal at the end of Momma Mia, but at the start of this episode, she didn't have one on her finger, but had a ring on a chain around her neck. Why would she wear John's around her neck, but take hers off?

I'm not sure it's odd she took it off, though, everybody grieves and handles loss differently. Maybe it makes sense she took off the ring trying to move on, but wasn't actually ready to do that? I mean, judging by the way she ran away at the end, she's not the most stable right now.

[nara]

Maybe she took her ring off after starting to read the journal and realizing that John became a different man from the one she married.

[MysteryGuest]

I just assumed it was part of her coming to grips with the reality she's now faced with.  She's not prepared to move on completely, which is why she now wears the ring around her neck, but John isn't a part of this new life. I won't be surprised to learn that there's a cutting room scene on the floor somewhere that might have shown her taking it off.

While my emotional ties are to Sam and Dean, I absolutely can sympathize with what Mary must be going through.  Her speech at the end of this episode was just as heart-wrenching as watching Sam and Dean's reactions to it.  While part of me wants her to just accept and love her sons for who they are, so that they don't hurt anymore, I totally understand how seeing them as they are now just reinforces what she's lost.  She was just with her little boys, and now in their place are two grown men.  I can't imagine how that would feel.

[catrox14]

So, re-watching and focusing on Cas. I'm worried about Cas. I'm thinking about the demon who said he was still being influenced by the 14  year old meatsuit, which opens the door for vessels to be influenced by their possessor even post possession.   (BTW since when is THAT A THING for possesors/meatsuits. LOLCANON.  There was Repo Man but I thought that was more because the meatsuit grew to love his possessor vs just being influenced by being in the meatsuit. I might need to rewatch that).

Like others, I thought his sarcasm with Crowley was really OOC.  Cas doesn't DO sarcasm.  He didn't understand sarcasm, when he first arrived much less use it himself. Even after the data dump from Metatron, where sarcasm would be in his repertoire of knowledge and he started to understand it, he still didn't use sarcasm himself. Then in 12.01, when he says "No, I don't have a harp.", that seemed more like the literal minded Cas.  Whereas Lucifer is nothing if not sarcastic and unkind,  yet he did a kindness by healing someone ( unless Lucifer healed her for self-serving reasons ) but healing an injured human is a very Castiel thing to do. 

Sooo, given that Amara forcibly ripped Lucifer from Cas vs Cas expelling him, I'm more than a little concerned that some of Lucifer's grace is in Cas and it's changing him.  Now, the good news is if the grace is still there, then maybe Sam and Dean will notice and Sam remembers that big ass needle Cas used to remove the remaining Gadreel grace, so maybe they can do that with Cas.  But worse, I'm concerned that it's not solely Lucifer's grace influencing Cas but that an angel possessing another angel, will have permanently altered both Cas and Lucifer.  

/color me scared for Castiel :(:(:(

Edited October 30, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think Sam would be eating Bran Flakes.  Dean would be eating Cap'n Crunch. (Is that still around?)

Yes!  Cap'n Crunch is still around!  Yum!  Peanut Butter too!  But I don't think Dean likes peanut butter, does he?  So maybe the regular for him.  Or Fruit Loops.  But I could also see Sam eating the Peanut Butter Cap'n Crunch on occasion.  Or as @rue721 said: flax cereal or Kashi.  (I've eaten some Kashi...it's not all cardboard tasting, imo.  Lol.)  Maybe they get the Corn Flakes because that's something they both can agree on.

Okay...I have been schooled on the internet!  Lol.  But I'm an engineer/techy geek so maybe I was more ahead of the curve than the general populace.  

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 Well, if (as they showed in the "Then" trailer) he promised it as part of Vince's saying yes, maybe (as an angel? Or honoring deals like a crossroads demon?) he felt obliged to follow through. Since he apparently didn't care one way or the other (according to the sister) it seems like he was just fulfilling an obligation to the letter, not the spirit.  I'm assuming it was cut from the previous ep and they decided, whoops, we needed that connection so they could find out where Luci had gotten to, so, presto--it showed up again.

This makes so much sense.  Thank you for the explanation!  

8 hours ago, mertensia said:

As for coroners, I'm not sure about Minnesota but they certainly don't have to be pathologists everywhere in the U.S..

Just some FYI, because I can get weird about research (engineer and all...Honestly, not trying to be a smart ass or anything, just sharing what I found.) and @DittyDotDot pointed out they were in St. Paul, Mn.  So I looked up St. Paul's Medical Examiner's office (Yes, I went there.  Lol.  Said I was weird about research) https://www.ramseycounty.us/your-government/departments/safety-and-justice/medical-examiner

"The Ramsey County Medical Examiner’s Office serves as the Medical Examiner to Ramsey and Washington County as well as the following Minnesota counties:

Aitkin, Blue Earth, Cass, Clay, Crow Wing, Freeborn, Hubbard, Kanabec, Le Seuer, Morrison, Murray, Nicollet, Stearns and Waseca.

The office also provides forensic services and support for coroner, medical examiner and law enforcement agencies throughout greater Minnesota and Wisconsin."

So, even if they'd been in a smaller town (I am not familiar with MN counties at all!) likely the autopsy would have been performed in St. Paul anyway.  Also:

"All autopsies are performed by forensic pathologists working within the medical examiner’s office. All of the pathologists have been trained in forensic pathology and have extensive experience in death investigation."

1 hour ago, SueB said:

The hair: I thought she was being clever by starting with the pulled up bit.  That way she knew she could still pull her hair up (like she did later).

I did not even think of this!  Huh.  I would have seriously screwed up my own hair.  (Which is why I don't cut it myself.  Lol)

8 hours ago, Splash said:

They took a case that had no relation to the season's mytharc, got out of the bunker, and stayed in a random motel and I hope we have more of that happening this season.

You reminded me of the hotel room.  Anyone else think it looked a little nicer than places they usually stay?  Maybe they up their game a little for mom?  There was also a fold-a-way cot pushed back against one wall.  

@catrox14 - that is a very interesting theory about Cas.  I think it could be a good storyline if they actually went with it (having to remove Lucifer's grace).  But I wonder if that even crossed their minds?

[bethy]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

There was also a fold-a-way cot pushed back against one wall.

That cracked me up because obviously they're going to insist that Mary take one of the beds, and the idea of one of those guys, especially Sam (as youngest :)) on that fold-up bed is comedy gold. 

[Hana Chan]

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

While my emotional ties are to Sam and Dean, I absolutely can sympathize with what Mary must be going through.  Her speech at the end of this episode was just as heart-wrenching as watching Sam and Dean's reactions to it.

Mary should never have been brought back to life. That much is very clear because despite Amara's best intensions, there is no way to erase the huge gap for Mary between how she knows her sons vs the grown men that her babies grew into. It wasn't as if she saw them grow up. She went in a flash from seeing Dean as a four year old and Sam as an infant to two men older than she was when she died. How is she supposed to wrap her mind around that, along with dealing with the expectations of her sons to be the mother that they lost?

And it doesn't help that for Dean, she appeared to him in very nearly the exact way she was when he last saw her (even wearing the same nightgown she wore when she died). Dean is going to have a harder time than Sam because Dean was just old enough to have very clear, distinct memories of his mother. For Sam, Mary was more of an abstract because he wasn't old enough to develop conscious memories of his own. For Sam, Mary was something that he never knew and his feelings of loss were more about not having something that everyone else did - something that should have been there that wasn't.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Hana Chan

[SueB]

I'm betting it was Dean on the foldaway.  Mostly because if they did Rock, Paper, Scissors, he would have lost.