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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

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Re: The Landing: The wife didn’t look like the forgive and forget type! I wish people would only agree to meet an ex in a public place (preferably with a friend nearby), not some secluded place out in the woods by a lake.

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9 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Two on tonight. First one about a very talented young woman, second one about a dead woman and her cheating spouse.

Those two made a good set because, although one victim was very young and the other was a grandmother, both victims were entirely sweet and innocent and both murderers had practically no motive.  The young murderer just wanted to see fear in a confident person's eyes and the husband of the second victim just "made a bad decision" to burn to death his wife and two beautiful dogs. Chilling.

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4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Those two made a good set because, although one victim was very young and the other was a grandmother, both victims were entirely sweet and innocent and both murderers had practically no motive.  The young murderer just wanted to see fear in a confident person's eyes and the husband of the second victim just "made a bad decision" to burn to death his wife and two beautiful dogs. Chilling.

I agree...both murderers seemed to have no remorse and little real motive.  Well, the grandfather had a motive -- he fantasized about moving on with another woman, and the life insurance payments.  What a horrible man.

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The Landing: I'm sure the wife was involved in the kidnapping and murder, at the very least. The phone calls just sort of all add up to one or both of that couple being responsible. However, I'm not sure I could vote to convict if I were on the jury. There was just no physical evidence whatsoever. No body, no DNA, no witnesses, nothing tying them to the crime at all. There's also nothing to say that her husband wasn't solely responsible. 

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The Landing - I think the wife had more reason to want Heather dead than her husband.  Once his wife knew about the affair he didn't really have a reason to kill Heather.  The wife however was angry and wanted revenge.  She did not want Heather to have a baby that would be a reminder of the affair.  Everyone in town would know and she did not want that. The cheating hubby went along to make his wife happy.  Mr Lake kept saying the wife was scary looking.  

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The husband who killed his wife and burned down his house is another human waste who says "I don't know" when asked why they did what they did.  They never say what we all know... he wanted a new woman and he didn't want to give his loving wife any money, but instead decided to murder her.  That sounds so petty and cruel when said out loud that instead of owning up, he'd rather pull this "duh" thing and pretend that it was an anomaly.

Edited by patty1h
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I think often the answer is that the friends don't want to inflict further pain on the parents and family by publicly revealing some of that friend's unfortunate actions.

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Busy October, this is the first comment on this thread that made me laugh out loud. From now on, I'll probably chuckle and remember your post every time I watch a show about the latest victim of the week who could light up a room with their smile while simultaneously supporting their meth habit through petty theft. 

And yes, I feel guilty for making light of murder, but to be honest, I feel guilty for enjoying these shows in the first place. So what's a little more guilt? 

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On 11/3/2018 at 8:26 PM, sinycalone said:

I got the impression the parents did not know he was married.  But her friends apparently did.  I realize those friends did not want to appear judgmental when it was a show about her murder....but just brushing it aside was ridiculous.

I also believe the wife was the mastermind.  I suspect the fact that she had been cheating, too, was brought up in the trial....to create doubt about her being the perfect wife and mother.  

Thank you!  I was heartbroken after watching this episode, I have a young daughter and was just going through my head all the life lessons this poor girl made, not judging just hate she paid the ultimate price with these two scumbags.  First I just wish this beautiful smart girl didn't have to work at the Tilted Kilt, no offense to anyone who does just know its a Celtic version of Hooters.  No judgement we all have to eat and pay bills but just wish she had never worked there and never met what was he a cook?  A bartender? And that she didn't ever fall for the married man with 3 kids who promises to leave his wife for you, just heartbreaking.  The other heartbreaking part of this story was that she just had a really good first date with a new guy and then that loser starts calling her and wanting to meet up.  Why why why did she go meet him?  And they said from her phone records that she called that payphone something like 9 times with no one answering it after she realized he was calling her from it.  It just made me so mad that she allowed that guy to have that much power over her and her life, she was so much better than all that!  I don't doubt however that she picked the wrong husband and wife to mess with and ultimately they would have found some other way to punish her or ruin her life but still....

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I've actually known 2 women who were murdered, in both cases by boyfriends, after leaving their husbands. They were both vibrant, attractive women and mothers and both times I was shocked and stunned by what happened. When I watch a show like Dateline I ask myself how I'd feel if they were doing an episode about someone I actually knew, or worse, someone I was related to. I'd probably hate it. I wonder if the family has the right to say no to these stories, or if they only have the right to agree or disagree to an interview. 

And I do totally understand why the friends and family don't want to say anything negative about their lost person, even though at times they seem to take it a bit far. 

I admit to being fascinated by these shows for some unknown reason, but if I start empathizing too much with the families, or if the case is too disturbing to me, or involves children, I can't watch. I only watch the episodes that fit my weird criteria. For example, I turned off a Dateline this week as soon as I heard the victim was an only child. I know that makes no logical sense, but imagining the parent's anguish was too much for me. 

I think I need to keep some psychological distance from these shows in order to enjoy watching them. And maybe someday I'll understand the weird impulse that's makes me watch in the first place. 

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4 hours ago, Melina22 said:

For example, I turned off a Dateline this week as soon as I heard the victim was an only child. I know that makes no logical sense, but imagining the parent's anguish was too much for me. 

To make that one even sadder, the couple had tried to have children for many years before their daughter was born and she was clearly very sheltered and the light of their lives.  I watched it, but I didn't "enjoy" it the way I do some others. 

This question of why we watch and which ones we can't watch is interesting. Looking at @BusyOctober's list I think some maybe if the victim meets some of those conditions, drug addicted sex worker for instance, then I can tell myself, "Well, she lived a very risky lifestyle and so long as we (or our daughters) don't do those things we will  be safe.

I'll try to justify the show by saying that at least they might serve as a warning for some people and it really is satisfying to watch murderers get found out and set to prison.

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13 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

make that one even sadder, the couple had tried to have children for many years before their daughter was born and she was clearly very sheltered and the light of their lives.  I watched it, but I didn't "

Now that you mention it, I remember hearing that too. That's part of why I thought " Nope! Too sad! " and switched it off. 

I totally agree with the rest of your post too. Our brains are constantly searching for reasons they deserved it somehow, or that it couldn't happen to us, even while rationally we know that those things aren't true. 

I do think my primary reason for watching is my fascination with human psychology. I find people endlessly interesting, unpredictable and surprising. These shows demonstrate that so well. 

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9 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I do think my primary reason for watching is my fascination with human psychology. I find people endlessly interesting, unpredictable and surprising. These shows demonstrate that so well. 

This. That's the big reason why I watch these kinds of shows, and follow true crime stuff in general. It's the "why" of it all, wondering what leads somebody to do the horrible things they do. Especially if the target is somebody they know and (supposedly) love-a family member, a spouse, a friend. Just the idea that you may not be able to trust those you should be able to trust, that things can be going along fine until one event sets somebody off, that "perfect" families and couples are often hiding dark secrets...it's a concept I find really interesting, and, as noted, learning about those warning signs through stories like this can make for a good public service as well. 

I also love seeing the investigation side of things on shows like this. It's always great to see the detectives who stick with a case and do not rest until they get justice for the victim and their families, and who genuinely value the work they do. And on the flip side, I also appreciate it when these shows highlight investigations that were handled poorly, or cases that don't get the attention they deserve because the victims weren't the "right" kind of people to care about, or things of that sort. We need to be aware of any flaws and abuses in our justice system so that we can work to fix them, and I'm glad these shows take the time to address those issues. 

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Well said! It's nice to remind myself that there are actually legitimate and valid reasons to watch these shows. Several of them. 

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No judgement we all have to eat and pay bills but just wish she had never worked there and never met what was he a cook?  A bartender? 

It didn't sound like he was actually employed by the bar. It sounded like he did odd jobs for various bars. Or he might have been a beer company delivery man. Something like that.

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Well, I am an unrepentant True Crime slut, and watch them all.  Because I save the empathetic half of my brain for animal stories.  Murder most foul all the people, but if you harm one hair on an animal's head, I revolt!!!

 

PS - I could elope                       with your post, @BusyOctober

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17 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I do think my primary reason for watching is my fascination with human psychology. I find people endlessly interesting, unpredictable and surprising

Yes!   All my favorite shows reflect this interest, Dateline, Survivor, Hoarders... just seeing inside someone's house is interesting to me -- and like Walnut Queen I'm still upset about that Great Dane and the other dog who got burned up along with their woman last week.  Monster!

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19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

All my favorite shows reflect this interest, Dateline, Survivor, Hoarders.

My favourites as well! Plus BB. Oh, and for a while I was also watching My 600 lb Life for the same reason, an absolute fascination with people and how they think and live, although I lost interest in that one eventually. I believe my natural interest in people was magnified by growing up in a family with some very dysfunctional people, some with personality disorders. It's like I've spent my life trying to figure them out, and trying to understand why they did what they did with no apparent remorse. (Thankfully, I'm not talking murder here.)

The more I read and post here, the more I'm understanding my fascination with Dateline and other shows that some people might view as exploitive. 

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2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes!   All my favorite shows reflect this interest, Dateline, Survivor, Hoarders... just seeing inside someone's house is interesting to me -- and like Walnut Queen I'm still upset about that Great Dane and the other dog who got burned up along with their woman last week.  Monster!

One peek inside my little house of horrors might change your mind about me - so just remember me as an animal lover & true crime addict, 'Kay?!   ;-)

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Oh I don't watch 'Hoarders," to judge, Walnutqueen.  I just like to see all their stuff.  If you happen to have collected 500 pounds of walnuts, 320 nutcrackers, and a file cabinet of walnut related recipes, I would only be  agog with admiration.

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Re: "Consumed"... Of course I am upset and horrified by that former fatso (I say as a fatty) killing his wife of 36 years, but there is a special place in hell reserved for someone that would also kill the family dogs that they professed to also "love" so much.

I'm not always sure how I feel about forgiveness, but I think he only had remorse because he was caught, personally, and I hope his sons, even if they forgive him at some point, choose to never associate with him again for the duration of his pathetic life.

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I am fascinated by human beings and their behavior, which is why most of my DVR is full of reality ("reality") TV, but I just love a good whodunnit as well, so I think that's a big part of my love for true crime.

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On 11/5/2018 at 1:44 PM, Annber03 said:

This. That's the big reason why I watch these kinds of shows, and follow true crime stuff in general. It's the "why" of it all, wondering what leads somebody to do the horrible things they do. Especially if the target is somebody they know and (supposedly) love-a family member, a spouse, a friend. Just the idea that you may not be able to trust those you should be able to trust, that things can be going along fine until one event sets somebody off, that "perfect" families and couples are often hiding dark secrets...it's a concept I find really interesting, and, as noted, learning about those warning signs through stories like this can make for a good public service as well. 

I also love seeing the investigation side of things on shows like this. It's always great to see the detectives who stick with a case and do not rest until they get justice for the victim and their families, and who genuinely value the work they do. And on the flip side, I also appreciate it when these shows highlight investigations that were handled poorly, or cases that don't get the attention they deserve because the victims weren't the "right" kind of people to care about, or things of that sort. We need to be aware of any flaws and abuses in our justice system so that we can work to fix them, and I'm glad these shows take the time to address those issues. 

Has anyone seen Netflix's Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt?  There is an episode in the latest season, where Titus refers to true crime shows as "white lady porn" - going on to explain that "Their lives are safe and predictable, so every once in a while, they need to see Tim Daly push a woman down a staircase."

I"m a white lady, and while my life isn't completely safe and predictable, there is something reassuring about the endings of most of these shows: the villains are caught.  When everything else is off, it can be reassuring to know that, many times at least, the bad guys/gals do get caught.  When so much is left open-ended or ambiguous, these shows mostly offer proof that bad deeds do catch up to people.  Or at least they do, some of the time.

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On 11/5/2018 at 8:57 AM, sinycalone said:

I think often the answer is that the friends don't want to inflict further pain on the parents and family by publicly revealing some of that friend's unfortunate actions.

We can never understand why any of these people go on TV. But as long as they do, I keep watching. Last night was another fake new story. Really a rehash of an old episode. 

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I hadn't seen it before. Tragedy all around, really. But I'm pretty convinced the death of the little boy was an accident exactly as described by the authorities, and that poor mother just can't accept that someone isn't responsible, other than her precious baby. 

Now, the death of Rebecca, the father's girlfriend, is a lot more suspicious, and that message on the wall was just weird. I don't really know what to make of it, except that Adam does himself no favors by going on camera. Dude is creepy. And yes . . . if he did cut her down and try to perform CPR on her, why no DNA evidence??

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I always thought that both deaths were what they seemed to be on the surface: an accident and a suicide. I get the reasons why one might suspect Adam, but personally it just seems odd to me that he wouldn't have chosen a suicide message that said something like "I'm sorry" or "Forgive me, I can't live with this guilt" if the point is to make people think it's a suicide. And, what would be the point in binding her hands and feet? If you want people to believe it's a suicide, that's an odd way to go about it. If he did it because she was fighting him, why doesn't he have a single scratch on him? Why didn't he just remove the binding around her hands and feet as part of "cutting her down" so no one would ever know?

Furthermore, if Dina hadn't been at the hospital and if they didn't have it on video, we'd all think she was the one who did it. There was an eye witness saying Dina was at the house that night. Dina sent Rebecca a text that night saying she wanted to talk to Rebecca about what happened with Max which Rebecca never responded to (not sure if that was in the Dateline episode but it was reported in the news.) The theory then would have been that Dina showed up to confront Rebecca over Max's death, and in her grief-stricken rage, killed Rebecca. She then had Adam help her stage it as a suicide and they cleaned the scene before calling 911 that morning. However, Dina had a solid alibi. So that leaves Adam, and because it's now just him acting alone and because Rebecca was naked, the new theory is that it was a sexual assault? That's not the theory that they would have floated if Dina had remained involved so I'm a bit skeptical to just buy it now. I'm not really keen to jump to Adam as the next suspect in line solely because he didn't have the luck of having a better alibi than Dina.

Again, I understand those that find Adam skeevy, but he has no criminal history so I'm having a hard time believing he'd suddenly use his dying nephew as a chance to randomly become a rapist/murderer. I think it's far more likely that Rebecca heard that message about Max's condition worsening and, feeling distraught and grief-stricken and shame (not that it was her fault, but that does not prevent people from feeling these things when a child lays dying in a hospital), she impulsively acted and ended her own life. That seems far more plausible to me than Adam murdering Rebecca.

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I agree with your points Closer, it's just that Rebecca's death was really, really odd whereas Max's wasn't, so much. It's therefore more understandable to me that people would be suspicious about the circumstances of Rebecca's death. There isn't much to be gleaned from Max's death that isn't wild speculation based on zero evidence. The kid fell, period. It happens. There's nothing to point to anyone beating him or pushing him. 

Edited by iMonrey
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Off topic here, but did you just read that they made arrests in that case in Ohio of a few years back where an entire family (except for the babies and very young child) were killed?   At the time it was rumored to be drug related but with the arrests it was apparently child custody related.  Sounds as if it could make a future good Dateline episode.  

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Tonight's episode:  Ultimatum

I think Carrie (the daughter) only caved, and appeared somewhat contrite, because she knew they had enough evidence to convict.  She wanted to deal to get the lesser sentence.

While I do believe the father did attempt to brainwash the daughters, and was the force behind the murder....I think Carrie was only too willing to do away with her mother.  What a disgusting duo.

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2 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

While I do believe the father did attempt to brainwash the daughters, and was the force behind the murder....I think Carrie was only too willing to do away with her mother.  What a disgusting duo.

I got that sense, too, especially during her confession. I can see her having a manipulative side, definitely. Course, then again if her father had spent as much time brainwashing his kids as the police believe, she may well have learned those tricks from him.

But ugh. Yeah. What a fucking sleazeball the guy was. "Can you cry?" made my skin crawl. And his "suicide attempt" was just as manipulative and attention-getting-he'd totally be the sort of guy who would threaten to kill himself if a woman tried to leave him. He even looked creepy in the photos they showed. 

Also, what a bizarre way to try and make it look like she'd killed herself. Most of the time on these kinds of shows, when someone tries to make it seem like a person committed suicide, they usually do something like shoot them and put the gun next to them, or knock them out with pills and put the bottle next to them, or things of that sort. This method was just so freaking elaborate and showy, which made the story that much more disturbing somehow. 

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Ultimatum should have been a 2 hour episode, or structured differently to give more backstory.  The idea that husband Lloyd brainwashed the three daughters definitely seemed plausible, but anecdotes about ballet class from a decade before the murder didn't really shore up that hypothesis.  Clearly the other 2 kids didn't want to be interviewed, but the cops could have talked about the "cult like" upbringing in more depth.

From the snippets of police interviews with Karrie seemed to be lying about her level of involvement and all of the crying seemed fake.  When the NY cops got her in the interview room shortly before the arrest she went from crying about her mom's death to not in a split second.  I too think she saw the writing on the wall and flipped on her father to save her butt.

I also wanted to know more about the rift between Michele and her mother; the mother blamed it on Lloyd for isolating Michele and demeaning her, but wouldn't Michele have reached out to her mother after the divorce went through?  Also, Michele was in contact with her sister, so why didn't the sister try to find out why Michele wasn't speaking to their mother.  In any event, both Michele's mother and sister had weird, over-smiley affects when talking about Michele's death.  It reminded me of Claire on Modern Family, who has a quirk of creepily smiling at the news of someone's death.  Just freaky.

And maybe I need to go on a true crime diet, but I better than half suspected that some kind of incest relationship going on with Kerrie and Lloyd was going to be revealed.  I was glad to be wrong on that.

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1 minute ago, Lizzing said:

And maybe I need to go on a true crime diet, but I better than half suspected that some kind of incest relationship going on with Kerrie and Lloyd was going to be revealed.  I was glad to be wrong on that.

I was bracing for that, too. 

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1 hour ago, Lizzing said:

 In any event, both Michele's mother and sister had weird, over-smiley affects when talking about Michele's death.  

And their baby-voices! 

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Whether or not the incest was physical, it surely was emotional.  The way dickswab dad and dastardly daughter talked to each other made that clear to me.

"All my girls love me" was his password?  What a fucking douche.

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I find last night’s show unbelievable.  I can see the husband killing his wife as ridiculous as that sounds but the daughter being involved??? How can a child do that to either parent regardless of their relationship?   

I understand that the father used mind control and he succeeded but still ....

Tried to follow up on the daughter’s sentence to see what it was but couldn’t find anything. 

I’ve got so many questions.  

We’ve all had to get through ‘our stupid years’ with murder not ever being involved. A girl in her stupid years controlled by her father that’s something else entirely.  I’m not sure if I’m trying to work up some sympathy for the daughter or stick with she agreed to follow and did what she did so she should be punished accordingly. 

What do you all think?  

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The police were called to the home many times for domestic disturbances  I believe most (if not all) of these calls were after the divorce.  So...the loud arguments were between mother and daughter(s)...or possibly between the daughters.  In any case, this suggests that Karrie was not exactly a loving daughter.  One of the weapons Daddy Dearest probably held over her head was the possibility of having to leave college because of his financial problems.  (BTW...I think that was all b.s.  More manipulative nonsense.  It's not as if Michelle was living extravagantly -- and demanding ridiculous amounts of money.)  

I, too, think this show certainly could have used another hour to give us more details about the family histories.  I wonder if the other daughters simply wanted to keep their privacy intact...or if they had realized how much their father controlled their minds, and have no idea how to cope with the results.

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I think they were treading very carefully with this one to respect the other sisters’ privacy. They never said their names or show any pictures that included them. I understand the younger one since she may still be a minor, but the older one would have been an adult when the murder took place. So I’m guessing Dateline had very little on the record to go on here. The mom couldn’t even give much, since she hadn’t spoken to her daughter in 10 years. 

 

I do wonder who ended up getting custody of the younger daughter, and if she’s been able to break free of her dad’s gaslighting. 

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The oldest daughter lived with her father, didn’t she?  I’m curious if she was possibly aware of what was going down. Or if the father was ‘protecting’ her so to speak as she was the closest to him.   Even if she’s innocent entirely, I would imagine all of this will follow her around.  

Why do I see all the daughters on Dr Phil in the future?  

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Here is an article published after the father pleaded guilty.  Some interesting details not mentioned on the show last night about trying to get his sister to coerce Karrie into changing her testimony to help his defense.

https://www.stargazette.com/story/news/public-safety/2018/10/12/corning-murder-suspect-pleads-guilty-killing-his-ex-wife/1615489002/

He also waived his right to appeal.

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11 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

Here is an article published after the father pleaded guilty.  Some interesting details not mentioned on the show last night about trying to get his sister to coerce Karrie into changing her testimony to help his defense.

https://www.stargazette.com/story/news/public-safety/2018/10/12/corning-murder-suspect-pleads-guilty-killing-his-ex-wife/1615489002/

He also waived his right to appeal.

Thank you for this.  

 

I have to say this this whole story has me interested and now to know that the dad’s sister was enlisted to get Karrie to not testify or change her testimony.  SMDH.  

I hope that there is a follow up. 

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It seemed like everything was about the dad in this story, and we learned very little about the victim Michelle. They spent too much time on the ballet stuff and seemed to be implying Michelle wasn’t a good mom because she didn’t take her to ballet.

It was hard to believe that Karrie would go along with murdering her mom in such a brutal way. I agree this needed a two hour story. 

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Michelle's 2 friends at least added some personal notes on her as a mother.  But I agree, we needed more background on Michelle.  Here is an article published after Karrie was charged.  How very strange that Karrie apparently was willing to believe all the nasty things her father spouted....yet saw the generous, good side of her first hand.

http://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2018/02/26/mother-remembered-for-volunteer-work-in-community-

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5 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

They spent too much time on the ballet stuff and seemed to be implying Michelle wasn’t a good mom because she didn’t take her to ballet.

I don't know what they intended with that,  but my reaction to him always getting to ballet early with the girls and doing their hair in front of everyone, was that he was one of those men who loves to be the only guy in a crowd of women, while they all ooh and ahh over what a great father he is. I've know a few men like that and it's all part of being the center of attention, admired by all. I couldn't stand him even before I knew he was a murderer. 

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Yes, I used to teach and we had one stay at home dad like that. Always hung around longer than needed and the moms were always offering to help him with pick up or baking for the class party cause it’s so hard being a stay at home dad ( somehow it’s harder than being a stay at home mom I guess )!

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33 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't know what they intended with that,  but my reaction to him always getting to ballet early with the girls and doing their hair in front of everyone, was that he was one of those men who loves to be the only guy in a crowd of women, while they all ooh and ahh over what a great father he is. I've know a few men like that and it's all part of being the center of attention, admired by all. I couldn't stand him even before I knew he was a murderer. 

Yeah, but I knew he and that daughter were the murderers right when they began that story. It was obvious by how Dateline began retelling events.

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The rerun last night of the man who raped and murdered two college students in College Station, still infuriates me.     The local police pretty much treated the surviving victims like garbage, took the word of the attacker who almost killed the other girl over her, when she was severely injured, and laying in a pool of blood on the floor, and then when she tried to make a report was called a druggie, and tramp.     To me it's very typical of the attitude of big college towns, where anything that will reflect on the crime statistics are discounted, just to make sure the college doesn't get a bad report on the campus crime statistics.     I was surprised when the man was actually caught, and convicted.     I feel so sorry for his surviving victims,, who have to live with what he did for the rest of their lives, and will still have some people think they're liars.     

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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On 2018-11-16 at 10:37 PM, Lizzing said:

And maybe I need to go on a true crime diet, but I better than half suspected that some kind of incest relationship going on with Kerrie and Lloyd was going to be revealed.  I was glad to be wrong on that.

My mind went there too. I hope not, but even if true we may never find out. 

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An update on Pam Hupp, for those who follow her crazy. She was in court today and they played her first interview with police after her most recent (alleged) murder. She’s basically blaming it on the local reporter who figured out the whole plot with her first victim. 

Pam Hupp blames Fox 2 reporter for Gumpenberger killing during police interview
http://via.fox2now.com/0JWIX

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