S02.E08: Su-Zakana

[Slovenly Muse]

DittyDotDot, you truly are a horse of a different colour. Way to pony up and keep the equestrian puns coming! That'll teach the neigh-sayers to try and corral this discussion back on track! ;)

[AimingforYoko]

Whoa. You guys need to rein in all the horse puns.

Had to give you a like for the proper spelling of 'rein'.

[Happytobehere]

Add me to the list of those who think Chilton is alive and the story of his death is part of the long con currently being played by Jack and Will.

It is strange and sort of sad that I no longer have the slightest interest in Alana Bloom. She is no longer a credible character to me. Rather she is a cautionary tale of arrogance and over-emotion. She is so convinced that her instincts and feelings can never be wrong that she can't see, hear or process anything other than what she ever so self-righteously knows to be correct.

I am interested in seeing how the tale of Margot and Mason develops. I too think that as written in the book, Harris let his need for the scintillating overrule the need for accuracy, which is funny when you consider the level of the suspension of disbelief Hannibal requires.

[Rapunzel]

Glad to see the Vergers! Do we know who's going to play Mason?

I've seen a few articles that mention that Michael Pitt has signed on to play Mason. I loved him in Boardwalk Empire and I think he will do a great job with this role as I also saw him in the American version of Funny Games and he played a pretty good psychopath.

It is strange and sort of sad that I no longer have the slightest interest in Alana Bloom. She is no longer a credible character to me. Rather she is a cautionary tale of arrogance and over-emotion. She is so convinced that her instincts and feelings can never be wrong that she can't see, hear or process anything other than what she ever so self-righteously knows to be correct.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about Alana as well. It's just so frustrating to watch a character who is supposed to be so intelligent and be able to read and relate to people fail miserably at it. Her own personal emotions have taken over and she does not have the ability to be objective anymore. As I said in an earlier post, I think she will only see Hannibal for who and what he truly is when he is actually trying to/does kill her.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rapunzel

[90PercentGravity]

Whoa. You guys need to rein in all the horse puns.

Well, then you better pony up some better ones.

[attica]

There's a comment about Alana's being rode hard and put away wet that seems needs making, but I doubt I'm the filly to do it.

[Nutjob]

I remember reading about Michael Pitt being cast as Mason Verger a few months ago, and thinking it was perfect. He and Katherine Isabelle look like they could be siblings.
 

It is strange and sort of sad that I no longer have the slightest interest in Alana Bloom. She is no longer a credible character to me. Rather she is a cautionary tale of arrogance and over-emotion. She is so convinced that her instincts and feelings can never be wrong that she can't see, hear or process anything other than what she ever so self-righteously knows to be correct.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about Alana as well. It's just so frustrating to watch a character who is supposed to be so intelligent and be able to read and relate to people fail miserably at it. Her own personal emotions have taken over and she does not have the ability to be objective anymore. As I said in an earlier post, I think she will only see Hannibal for who and what he truly is when he is actually trying to/does kill her.

Either that, or if they come up with so much overwhelming evidence that she can't deny it. She seemed so quick to disbelieve Will, and yet Hannibal can do no wrong, and it frustrates me to know end. I still think Jack is using Alana's stupidity to send misdirection to Hannibal, or else he would remove her from any case where he or Will are involved.

[Snookums]

Get to meet Margot and get a glimpse of her brother.  I'm 100% sure it's only going to escalate on that front.

 

At first I was wondering why Fuller dropped the rape aspect of Margot and her brother; I mean, I've seen shit on this show that you can't believe Bezeelebub could come up with, but rape's a bridge too far? But his explanation of why he didn't want to go there was very good. He's right. People aren't beaten or terrorized into changing their sexuality (even though Harris used the exact same idea for Jame Gumb and Francis Dollarhyde--sensing a theme here.) And having your brother do something that horrible to you in the full glee of knowing that nobody will be on your side is just as hideously traumatizing. 

Not being believed until you are was a big theme here. The cracked cheap funhouse mirror of Hannibal and Will that was Peter and the social worker, Margot being told outright that killing her brother is the right thing to do, Jack telling will you catch 'em, I'll net 'em. Being believed is a drug, it drives you, pushes you, makes deals with your soul. It's supposed to be invigorating and stiffening to the resolution to be believed, but it can also drag you down.

 

DittyDotDot, you truly are a horse of a different colour. Way to pony up and keep the equestrian puns coming! That'll teach the neigh-sayers to try and corral this discussion back on track! ;)

These puns are galloping outta control! Let's get back to the mane point.

[lilmissprefect]

 

She seemed so quick to disbelieve Will, and yet Hannibal can do no wrong, and it frustrates me to know end. I still think Jack is using Alana's stupidity to send misdirection to Hannibal, or else he would remove her from any case where he or Will are involved.

Something that has really frustrated me with Alana this season is her complete and total unwillingness to believe anything bad about Hannibal. It is consistent, though, because she was the same way in the Abigail situation - complete trust that what Hannibal said was the entire truth, no matter what. I think what's getting to me this time is her attitude towards Will, who is admittedly my favorite character and thus whenever anyone is even slightly mean to him my back immediately goes up. It irritates me that she never even seemed to think of regretting her quickness to believe him capable of all those murders and instead uses dropping the dogs off as an excuse to chastise him for going after Hannibal. I don't know. Something about that whole scene just rubbed me the wrong way.

I do hope that Jack is playing both of them, because honestly I don't understand why else she is so involved. Seriously, you do NOT bring in the lover of your suspect to do an interview, even an "informal" one. You keep her as far away from the case as possible. Plus I don't like the idea that Jack would be so willing to just believe everything when Will flat out told him that nothing  is what it seems.

That said, I thought she was rather useful this ep. I was worried that she would be endlessly smug now that Chilton has been 'outed' as the Chesapeake Ripper and she has been vindicated in her opinion, and we didn't get any of that. And I've said it before, but I like that she called Hannibal out on his distraction techniques when they started talking about Will - fun as they were, she was not to be silenced. It shows that she is aware when Hannibal pulls surface level BS. i just wish that she would start to wake up to the fact that it goes ever so much deeper than she thinks. It sucks so hard that the character has to be so ridiculously naive about Hannibal in order to fit the story.

 

I remember reading about Michael Pitt being cast as Mason Verger a few months ago, and thinking it was perfect. He and Katherine Isabelle look like they could be siblings.

They do, don't they? That is good casting. Also I've seen Pitt in the American remake of "Funny Games" so I know he can do crazy quite well. Should be interesting when we finally get to see him on screen.

For those that have read the books, do you think that they will keep his entire storyline? I worry for the children...

[MisterGlass]

I hope not.  Or if they do, I hope they do a much better job than the movie "Hannibal".  Book (and potential series) spoilers. 

I have never liked the grand design of raising killer pigs to eat his enemy on the off chance he finds him. Or the wheel chair bound human skull that he becomes. I am not sure I could stand to watch a season of that.  I think Fuller could take the idea of a vain, abusive person becoming physically repellant in other directions.  Really, the last third of the book could be scrapped and I would have no objection.

It irritates me that she never even seemed to think of regretting her quickness to believe him capable of all those murders and instead uses dropping the dogs off as an excuse to chastise him for going after Hannibal. I don't know. Something about that whole scene just rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't think she was particularly quick to believe Will committed the murders.  At least, no more than Jack and the science team.  The evidence and Will's illness were there, and while Zeller may feel the need to apologize, I'm not sure that Alana should.  If Will had been shown to be not guilty before the attempt on Hannibal's life, I think it would have been a much happier reunion.  Before that, she believed Will was a victim of his illness, and not someone who would make an attempt on another person's life.  That was when she lost her faith in Will, and reaching for stability she found Hannibal.  Considering Will tried to murder someone she is emotionally invested in, the meeting was more polite that it might have been.

I suspect that there is some defining something in her past with Hannibal that makes her trust him.  Hannibal and Dr. DuMaurier shared the lie over her patient's death.  I wonder Hannibal and Alana share.

Edited April 22, 2014 by MisterGlass

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think she was particularly quick to believe Will committed the murders.  At least, no more than Jack and the science team.  The evidence and Will's illness were there, and while Zeller may feel the need to apologize, I'm not sure that Alana should.  If Will had been shown to be not guilty before the attempt on Hannibal's life, I think it would have been a much happier reunion.  Before that, she believed Will was a victim of his illness, and not someone who would make an attempt on another person's life.  That was when she lost her faith in Will, and reaching for stability she found Hannibal.  Considering Will tried to murder someone she is emotionally invested in, the meeting was more polite that it might have been.

I suspect that there is some defining something in her past with Hannibal that makes her trust him.  Hannibal and Dr. DuMaurier shared the lie over her patient's death.  I wonder Hannibal and Alana share.

I didn't think she was quick to believe Will was capable of this either...and I'm not sure she really wants to believe it now, but the evidence is rather damning.  The only reason they found out about Will's illness was because Alana wouldn't believe he could do this and she was trying to find something to explain it. It would be interesting to learn why she trusts Hannibal so completely though. I haven't had a hard time swallowing it yet, but if there is a backstory here, I would love to see it.

Edited April 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[lilmissprefect]

Well, I did say I was biased. *grins*

I guess what I mean by quickness to believe is that while she might have questioned Will's state of mind, she never once even entertained the idea that he might actually not have done it. No one did, and trust me, I had plenty of rage for everyone because of it. However, now that the truth is out everyone has acknowledged in some way that they feel guilty, even if Zeller is the only one who has actually come out with an apology. Alana, however, hasn't even done that, and it frustrates me. It's even worse because I do get where she is coming from, intellectually. I don't even dislike her. I just want her to see, the same way I wanted them all to see in the season one finale. I know she's not going to, but man, oh man, is it hard to watch.

MisterGlass, I think you might be disappointed in your hopes for a different ending.

I am pretty sure that Mason is going to end up dog food, although I would be okay if he wasn't. Really okay. And if he ends up dog food, chances are the pigs are in, too. Though I'm like you - I could totally do without the last third of the book. I was actually referring to Mason's preference of making children "take the chocolate". I really don't want to see child torture, psychological or otherwise.

[Lisin]

With regards to the Mason story arch

I'm imagining that they're going to at least follow the beginning of the Mason story this season, up to at least the point where he feeds his face to the dogs. I'm guessing if we get to the pigs it would be later if they're going to stick to any sort of chronology. The timeline is still correct at the moment - aside from some smushing of things and of course Chilton possibly being dead, so I'm thinking Mason will be at least similar to the books but I hope they don't kill him just yet.

[Demig]

Hannibal and Dr. DuMaurier shared the lie over her patient's death. I wonder Hannibal and Alana share.

 

I think that Hannibal has performed some sort of mind jedi trick on her so that she develops a blind spot regarding him.  Because her utter and complete inability to even have a slight moment of 'What if...?' seems incomprehensible and the opposite of being a normal thinking semi-rational human being.  So, yeah, she's been mind jedi-ed. Finito!

[lulee]

This season began with the flashforward mano-a-mano between Jack and Hannibal, but I like how we're just a 5 episodes away from the end of the season and how we get to that fight is not a foregone conclusion. I am among the unspoiled and I really don't know what to expect. In episode 7 we saw a confident-looking Will tell Hannibal he wanted to resume therapy and then early in this episode, in therapy, Will still seemed confident. But from the interactions with Peter and Clark Ingram (what's up with the social worker's name almost being "In Graham"???),culminating in the final confrontation with Ingram, we see that Will is not so steely, not so steady.

So many questions.

[Ostrich]

Margot actually seems like a good mix of Dr. du Maurier, Abigail Hobbs, and Wednesday Addams, no?

I commented on this on Sarah's write-up, and I'm repeating it here: How do you fit an intact grown human being inside of a horse with all the horse entrails still in there? I'm along for the ride here, I'm into this show, and I'll suspend my disbelief far more than some people are willing to, but how does that work, Bryan Fuller? HOW?

Apparently the average mare weighs around 1,100 pounds and a foal weighs around 10% of that. The placenta is around 10% of the foal's weight. So you have 121 pounds there. That's the size of an adult female actress, right? Wouldn't take too much more stretching to shove a creepy social worker in there. Edited April 23, 2014 by Ostrich

[MisterGlass]

I just want her to see, the same way I wanted them all to see in the season one finale. I know she's not going to, but man, oh man, is it hard to watch.

It is!  And as far as

Mason's horrific actions, I would also like them left behind.  The character is loathsome in so many ways.

[LittleIggy]

I saw only the movie "Hannibal," but I thought those hogs were awesome. Gary Oldman as Verger was too.

[Tabbyclaw]

It would be interesting to learn why she trusts Hannibal so completely though.

 

People keep saying things like this, and I don't understand it at all. Her mentor, colleague, and friend of many years has been accused of being a serial killer by a man who can't provide a shred of physical evidence and who was until recently suffering from a severe illness that destroyed his perception. "I am not going to assume that someone I know is a terrifying murderer based on the testimony of a clinically disturbed person" isn't a great show of trust, it's kind of a prerequisite for basic social interaction.

[arc]

 

"I am not going to assume that someone I know is a terrifying murderer based on the testimony of a clinically disturbed person"

OK, under normal circumstances, but Will Graham is a freaking genius profiler who can tell two different cannibals apart because one eats with reverence and one eats with contempt, and he can discern this just from the evidence they leave behind. Don't you have to give his words some consideration?

 

Shoot, Ned the Pie Maker didn't get as many details as Will somehow does and Ned literally got the dead to talk to him.

[DittyDotDot]

People keep saying things like this, and I don't understand it at all. Her mentor, colleague, and friend of many years has been accused of being a serial killer by a man who can't provide a shred of physical evidence and who was until recently suffering from a severe illness that destroyed his perception. "I am not going to assume that someone I know is a terrifying murderer based on the testimony of a clinically disturbed person" isn't a great show of trust, it's kind of a prerequisite for basic social interaction.

Oh, I know and I agree. I was just saying that if there was a backstory here, I wouldn't mind seeing it. I totally get why Alana doesn't trust Will's judgment, but even last season she was 100% trusting of Hannibal about Abigail. It just seems like there could be more to this mentor/friend/colleague business and could make for interesting story and I for one wouldn't mind seeing it.

[GinevradiBenci]

I keep thinking that they got the wrong guy from Justified to be on Hannibal. It should have been Dewey Crowe, and his four kidneys. Imagine Hannibal's delight.

[90PercentGravity]

I pictured Garret Dillahunt as Verger, but probably because he played a similar role on Criminal Minds.

[LittleIggy]

I pictured Garret Dillahunt as Verger, but probably because he played a similar role on Criminal Minds.

Garret Dillahunt know how to play crazy. He played not one but two warped characters on "Deadwood."

[Tabbyclaw]

OK, under normal circumstances, but Will Graham is a freaking genius profiler who can tell two different cannibals apart because one eats with reverence and one eats with contempt, and he can discern this just from the evidence they leave behind. Don't you have to give his words some consideration?

 

Not when the only interaction he had ever had with Hannibal prior to accusing him occurred while he was in the grips of a debilitating illness that caused him to lose time, sieze, and hallucinate.

[heyerchick]

I think it was firmly established during Will's narco therapy with Dr. Chilton that it was mostly Hannibal causing him to lose time, seize and hallucinate. The encephalitis pretty much greased Hannibal's wheels.

[jeansheridan]

This is just the best bromance ever.  Watching Will seduce Hannibal is disturbing and hot.  That gentle head cup at the end...Mads is so tender for a big man.  And Will just flat out flirted in the therapy scene.  What part of Will does Hannibal want to eat?   Serious question.  Brain?  Eyes?  Heart?  

[Tabbyclaw]

I think it was firmly established during Will's narco therapy with Dr. Chilton that it was mostly Hannibal causing him to lose time, seize and hallucinate. The encephalitis pretty much greased Hannibal's wheels.

 

Yeah, but right now nobody but Will and Hannibal (and maybe Chilton) knows that.