JonBenet Ramsey

[Jel]

I looked up an interview that BPD did with Patsy in April 30, 1997. I could not find anything from any earlier, but then I didn't look very hard.  I'm sure one could argue that by April 30th she may have embellished her story, but that's another post 

In it she says (re: the morning of the 26th):

"PR:  Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup ..."

 

Here is the link if anyone is interested in reading the transcript:

http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[AZChristian]

There was an incident quite some time before.  Burke told Dr. Phil it was an accident, but Patsy apparently told a friend that he hauled off and hit her with a golf club.  Left a little scar on her cheek.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, jaync said:

 

 

1 hour ago, jaync said:

 

14 minutes ago, Chai said:

 

Quote boxes out of control!!!

Jel, thanks for that. So I guess she did say she did her hair and makeup. I don't know....still not buying it. Patsy seems like the type who would take awhile on her hair and makeup. It can take me a good 20 minutes and I don't do anything heavy. What time was the 911 call placed? Shortly before 6, right? So in a half hour she woke, did hair and makeup and got dressed, went straight down the stairs (OR checked on JB, according to which version she told), found the note, called for John, had him come read it, ran upstairs to THEN check on JB, and then called 911? 

[Mabinogia]

I just think, if you're going to go through the trouble of doing your hair and makeup you're going to put on clean clothes too. It just seems odd. Did she lay her party clothes from the night before out on a chair planning on re-wearing them? Did she grab them out of the hamper? why? Did she pick them up off the floor in a rush? She just doesn't strike me as the type of person who is going to wear party clothes from the night before on a plane ride but then go through the trouble of doing her hair showing that she did care how she looked that morning. It's just so weird, like every single thing about this family.

If this were a fictional tv show it would have been cancelled for being far to unbelievable because none of it is normal behavior.

[Jel]

45 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

 

Quote boxes out of control!!!

Jel, thanks for that. So I guess she did say she did her hair and makeup. I don't know....still not buying it. Patsy seems like the type who would take awhile on her hair and makeup. It can take me a good 20 minutes and I don't do anything heavy. What time was the 911 call placed? Shortly before 6, right? So in a half hour she woke, did hair and makeup and got dressed, went straight down the stairs (OR checked on JB, according to which version she told), found the note, called for John, had him come read it, ran upstairs to THEN check on JB, and then called 911? 

No problem, ghoulina :)

I hear you on the still not buying part.

I think an intruder did it, but I am trying very hard to keep an open mind. However, when I ask myself, what would it take for me to believe a Ramsey did it? Honestly, a confession, or something very close to it is what I come up with. I just find no compelling evidence that the parents did it, and despite my desire to be open minded, I definitely notice a confirmation bias (either developing or fully formed) in my own mind.  I can very easily dismiss things that others feel point to Ramsey guilt, and I really focus on things that I feel point to intruder guilt. I even recognize this and still can't get past it!

As for Burke, no, I don't think he did it, but there was something so odd about his reaction to the pineapple.  Maybe he saw or heard something that night and didn't say anything? I don't know.

[BitterApple]

Why was JonBenet found in such large underwear? If she was normally a 4, she would've been swimming in a size 12. Did JB wet her bed and grab the first panties she reached for in the drawer? The details of this case are so strange.

I also agree that it's annoying when "experts" assign guilt or innocence based on what "normal" people do as far as routines. Using the curtains as some sort of smoking gun is just plain idiocy. 

Edited October 3, 2016 by BitterApple

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I just think, if you're going to go through the trouble of doing your hair and makeup you're going to put on clean clothes too. It just seems odd. Did she lay her party clothes from the night before out on a chair planning on re-wearing them? Did she grab them out of the hamper? why? Did she pick them up off the floor in a rush? She just doesn't strike me as the type of person who is going to wear party clothes from the night before on a plane ride but then go through the trouble of doing her hair showing that she did care how she looked that morning. It's just so weird, like every single thing about this family.

If this were a fictional tv show it would have been cancelled for being far to unbelievable because none of it is normal behavior.

I saw the police interview with her.  She said she had thrown her clothes on the bathtub when she went to bed that night, and just put them back on the next day.  However, she assured the officer that she HAD changed her underwear.  I still think she never got undressed . . . she was too busy covering up what happened to JB.

[starri]

3 hours ago, Jel said:

About her wearing the same clothes: my take there is that Pasty was a secret slob.

She may have been a slob, but she was also obsessed with the face she presented to the world.  I think Perfect Murder, Perfect Town even said she wouldn't leave the bedroom without a full face of makeup.  In a situation where she legitimately thought JonBenet was missing, I can see her in her panic forgetting about that and just running around with her hair in curlers in her housecoat of whatever.  But I can't imagine on a normal night, she'd have slept in the clothes she had on the night before.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I don't know why some people think the Ramseys were incapable of killing their child.  It happens every day in America,  unfortunately. Patsy is a nutter, for sure (including her sister Pam- it must run in the family ). If anyone has read 'The Death of Innocence" , Patsy rambles on about how she chose purple for her Christmas theme and how she  subconsciously wove "death" into the Christmas theme for 1996. There are so many gems from that book. She comes across as unhinged and a religious freak. 

 

LindaHoffman-Pugh,  their housekeeper even said a month before the murder, Patsy was having some extreme mood swings coupled with the fact that Patsy drank her wine and was taking prescription Prozac and Ativan. JonBenet wasn't her normal self a month prior to the murder as her teacher noted that she was acting less confident and clingy.  

 

I personally believe something happened a month prior to JonBenets death that caused Patsy to snap,  be it stress or mental issues.  

[choclatechip45]

Remember Patsy was going to meet Melinda, her fiancée and John Andrew Ramsey in Michigan. People really think someone like Patsy is going to show up in the same clothes to see her stepdaughter fiancée? 

[ghoulina]

18 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Why was JonBenet found in such large underwear? If she was normally a 4, she would've been swimming in a size 12. Did JB wet her bed and grab the first panties she reached for in the drawer? The details of this case are so strange.

I think that's what Patsy was trying to imply. She mentioned in the interview that they ended up deciding NOT to give Jenny the Bloomies, so they must have just been in JB's drawer and SHE put them on. Except none of the other underwear from that pack were found. Only the pair she was wearing. Where were the others? 

I tend to think that the underwear were wrapped and in the basement, where they were keeping some Christmas gifts. They were grabbed in a hurry, maybe even by John - who didn't know as much about what size his daughter wore? Maybe she soiled herself during whatever happened, and they wanted to put clean clothing on her? But, didn't THOSE Bloomies have urine on them?

It's all so confusing. But I don't think Patsy is being honest about those panties. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I decided (or rather I asked my supervising doctor and he concurred) that we should give him/her a small dose of Ativan to smooth things over.  And the patient left with a short prescription for a tranquilizer, which is something we don't usually do in the emergency room, but that I again felt was appropriate.  

Is it odd? My gyro prescribes me Ativan just so I'll show up for the exam (probably as much for his sanity as mine).

Edited October 4, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Joe Jitsu913]

9 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I think that's what Patsy was trying to imply. She mentioned in the interview that they ended up deciding NOT to give Jenny the Bloomies, so they must have just been in JB's drawer and SHE put them on. Except none of the other underwear from that pack were found. Only the pair she was wearing. Where were the others? 

I tend to think that the underwear were wrapped and in the basement, where they were keeping some Christmas gifts. They were grabbed in a hurry, maybe even by John - who didn't know as much about what size his daughter wore? Maybe she soiled herself during whatever happened, and they wanted to put clean clothing on her? But, didn't THOSE Bloomies have urine on them?

It's all so confusing. But I don't think Patsy is being honest about those panties. 

This site compares the Bloomies that JonBenet was found to be wearing to her normal size 4-6.

 

Patsy insisted that JonBenet wore a bigger size but only the size 4-6 were found.  She also claims JonBenet was able to open the package , but it was sealed so that your would have to cut the package open. 

 

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?7107-The-Huge-(Girls-Size-12-14)-quot-Bloomies-quot-Underwear-on-JonBenet-Modeled-By-Six-Year-Old/page16

 

1 hour ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

This site compares the Bloomies that JonBenet was found to be wearing to her normal size 4-6.

 

Patsy insisted that JonBenet wore a bigger size but only the size 4-6 were found.  She also claims JonBenet was able to open the package , but it was sealed so that your would have to cut the package open. 

 

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?7107-The-Huge-(Girls-Size-12-14)-quot-Bloomies-quot-Underwear-on-JonBenet-Modeled-By-Six-Year-Old/page16

Patsy's statement to law enforcement re: the panties:

 

MS. HARMER: But you specifically remember her putting on the bigger pair?
And I am not saying --
THE WITNESS: They were just in her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all of her clean panties in a drawer and she can help herself to whatever is in there. 
Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

• PR further claimed that the size difference was minimal, and had no problem with JBR wearing the oversized panties: 
Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
had come to your attention –
A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me. 
Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

• Despite the fact that only size 4-6 panties were found in JBR’s panty drawer, PR claimed that JBR normally would wear size 8-10. 
Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
A. I have become aware of that, yes.
Q. And how did you become aware of that?
A. Something I read, I am sure.
Q. And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pairs of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is that where she kept -
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. -- where you were describing that they were just put in that drawer?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And every one of those was either a size four or a size six. Okay?
Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was six years old?
A. I would say more like six to eight. There were probably some in there that were too small.
Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
A. Not typically, no. 
MR. KANE: Okay.
Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you understand the reason we are asking this, we want to make sure that this intruder did not bring these panties with him, this was something --
A. Right.
Q. - that was in the house.
A. Yes.
Q. And we are clear that, as far as you know, that is something that was in this house?
A. Yes.
Q. -- that belonged to your daughter, these panties?
A. Correct.
Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

• PR also downplayed the difference in size between Jenny and JonBenet. 
Q. Was it something that, the fact that she is wearing these underpants designed for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and I will give you a minute to think about it because I know it is tough to try to pin down a couple of months of casual conversation -- do you recall ever having any conversations with her concerning the fact that she is wearing underwear that is just too large for her?
A. No. 
Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
had come to your attention –
A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me.
MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see if they fell down around her ankles or not?
THE WITNESS: No. 

…

Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time, how old was Jenny?
A. I don't know. Probably -- I don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but I don't know exactly how old she was. 
Q. Would these panties, size wise, be more appropriate for -- is she an older girl?
A. Yes.
Q. And I assume a larger girl?
A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a young woman, but then she was a little girl.
Q. How old is she now?
A. She is now 15 , I believe.
Q. So she would have been about 12 or somewhere --
A. 11.
Q. – 11, 12 ?
A. Yeah.
Q. And based on the, I guess, dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about, these would have been a size appropriate for her?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative). 
Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

Edited October 5, 2016 by Joe Jitsu913

[BitterApple]

Joe Jitsu913, thanks for posting that transcript.

That interview is so bizarre. Underwear that would fit a 12 year old would look ridiculous on a petite 6 year old. So the crux of the issue is that JB was found wearing too-large underwear, but none of the underwear in her drawer was a size 12-14, correct? So where did the rest of the panties go? I agree the most logical explanation is that they were a gift stashed in the basement and John put them on her. Guys who aren't used to dressing children wouldn't think of stuff like making sure she had on the proper size. That sort of flub is a Dad move, not a Mom move. It also goes hand in hand with the theory that John and Patsy staged different aspects of the crime scene. John screwed this one up, and Patsy had to cover for him.

[AZChristian]

OMG, I just had a BIG thought.  The panties JB was wearing had "Wednesday" on them.  Christmas day was on Wednesday.  John chose December 25th as the date for JB's headstone.  Maybe he put those panties on her after she died - on Wednesday - and that's how he knew that was the correct date of her death.

What do you folks think?

[MsJamieDornan]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:43 PM, ghoulina said:

Yes, I think John called his pilot around 30-60 minutes after JB's body was found. A police officer overheard him and told him he needed to stick around to help them with the case. John then told him he had a VERY important meeting he couldn't get out of. WHAT? I thought they were supposed to fly to Michigan for a 2nd Christmas? Where did this sudden, pressing meeting in ATL come from? And I think most people would accept "my daughter has been murdered" as a valid reason for missing a business meeting. 

Those people were 12 shades of fucked. 

When I read about this in the book I was stunned. But, the more I thought about it, the more i think it was part of the plan. They needed to get the hell out of town so the cops couldnt talk to them.

And, it still has never been explained why John was missing for approx 60-90 minutes that morning.

[ghoulina]

10 hours ago, BitterApple said:

That interview is so bizarre. Underwear that would fit a 12 year old would look ridiculous on a petite 6 year old. So the crux of the issue is that JB was found wearing too-large underwear, but none of the underwear in her drawer was a size 12-14, correct? So where did the rest of the panties go? I agree the most logical explanation is that they were a gift stashed in the basement and John put them on her. Guys who aren't used to dressing children wouldn't think of stuff like making sure she had on the proper size. That sort of flub is a Dad move, not a Mom move. It also goes hand in hand with the theory that John and Patsy staged different aspects of the crime scene. John screwed this one up, and Patsy had to cover for him.

Exactly. I think they were both rushing around trying to set things up, and that's why it all appears so disjointed and confusing. John tells Patsy to go write the note, while he takes care of the body. I don't think they consulted each other on a lot, probably not until after. Some stuff was wiped down, some wasn't. And John was missing, as was pointed out above, for over an hour. Did he leave the house? Was he disposing of stuff that was never found (the rest of that Bloomies pack)? Was he in the basement, fixing some of the staging items? Who knows. 

 

8 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

When I read about this in the book I was stunned. But, the more I thought about it, the more i think it was part of the plan. They needed to get the hell out of town so the cops couldnt talk to them.

Agreed. And it was just odd that he would say he had a meeting in ATL, when everyone knew they were due to go to MI. I'm sure he thought a business meeting that he "couldn't get out of" would sound more reasonable than just a 2nd Christmas at their vacation home. 

[OSM Mom]

I think that John was disposing of things when he went missing for that hour.  The rest of the panties, the rest of the duct tape, and whatever else was missing.  

[Joe Jitsu913]

13 hours ago, AZChristian said:

OMG, I just had a BIG thought.  The panties JB was wearing had "Wednesday" on them.  Christmas day was on Wednesday.  John chose December 25th as the date for JB's headstone.  Maybe he put those panties on her after she died - on Wednesday - and that's how he knew that was the correct date of her death.

What do you folks think?

"I selected December 25 (as that date of death shown on JonBenét's headstone) because I didn't want the world to forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people fifty years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at the marker and say, "The world went mad on that Christmas Day, and someone brutally murdered a child during the peace of Christmas night."

— John Ramsey

March 15, 2000

[Guest]

"...I didn't want the world to forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people fifty years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at the marker and say, 'The world went mad on that Christmas Day, and someone brutally murdered a child during the peace of Christmas night.'"

What I want people fifty years from now to know:

 

[AZChristian]

7 hours ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

"I selected December 25 (as that date of death shown on JonBenét's headstone) because I didn't want the world to forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people fifty years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at the marker and say, "The world went mad on that Christmas Day, and someone brutally murdered a child during the peace of Christmas night."

— John Ramsey

March 15, 2000

". . . the world . . . " includes his surviving children, Patsy, and everyone else he ever cared for.  So he wants the people he loves to always think of Christmas Day as the day his child was "brutally murdered."

That would be the main reason that I would put December 26th on the headstone.  I would never want my loved ones to associate Christmas Day with a brutal murder.  That says a lot about his selfish state of mind, IMHO.

[starri]

On 10/4/2016 at 7:28 PM, TattleTeeny said:

Is it odd? My gyro prescribes me Ativan just so I'll show up for the exam (probably as much for his sanity as mine).

Well, you and he have an ongoing doctor-patient relationship.  I, personally, feel uncomfortable giving someone who isn't my patient a controlled substance.  The rules were looser back then, though.  And there have always been separate rules for the wealthy.

But yeah, if she was really so hysterical and needed drugs to calm her down, which, if I were going to view this as a legitimate kidnapping, I can understand, I don't know why it wasn't her own doctor.

[TattleTeeny]

Eh, he hasn't been my doctor for a super-long time--just long enough, I guess, to know I am a problem patient, haha! To be honest, I'd rather he knock me unconscious, do his thing, and send me on my merry way. Ugh.

And who knows? Maybe he was the easiest to get in contact with? It's odd, I suppose--but not, IMO, that out there in the confines of this whole mess. On the other hand, maybe he even has a role in the whole coverup theory.

Edited October 6, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[WicketyWack]

I don't put much stock in Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before. As someone else pointed out, she was a secret slob and she might not have done laundry in a while. Also I believe she'd gained weight in the past year and maybe a bit more during the holidays ... she might not have had a lot of outfits that fit her properly. She mentioned in one interview coloring her own hair in the day or two leading up to JonBenet's murder. I would think that a woman of her means would never EVER allow her hair to come into contact with box color -- they make appointments in high-end salons. So her behavior was, to say the least, not predictable or consistent with someone of her wealth. 

[WicketyWack]

On 10/4/2016 at 5:45 AM, choclatechip45 said:

Remember Patsy was going to meet Melinda, her fiancée and John Andrew Ramsey in Michigan. People really think someone like Patsy is going to show up in the same clothes to see her stepdaughter fiancée? 

She just doesn't strike me as the type of person who is going to wear party clothes from the night before on a plane ride but then go through the trouble of doing her hair showing that she did care how she looked that morning.

Ahhh but remember, what's dressy in Boulder was casual to Patsy. A cashmere sweater and dress pants, to me, would be something she'd wear on a plane. And her stepkids would never know she'd worn those clothes the night before, so she wouldn't mind. Now, if they'd been at the dinner the evening before and would recognize the outfit? Never.

Edited October 6, 2016 by WicketyWack

[choclatechip45]

Quote

She just doesn't strike me as the type of person who is going to wear party clothes from the night before on a plane ride but then go through the trouble of doing her hair showing that she did care how she looked that morning.

Ahhh but remember, what's dressy in Boulder was casual to Patsy. A cashmere sweater and dress pants, to me, would be something she'd wear on a plane. And her stepkids would never know she'd worn those clothes the night before, so she wouldn't mind. Now, if they'd been at the dinner the evening before and would recognize the outfit? Never.

She strikes me as the person who would want to impress her stepdaughters fiancee. I don't know anyone who is materialistic who wears the same clothes the next day. If Patsy wore a dress the night before I could understand her wearing it the next day. Cashmere and dress pants are nice clothes, but they aren't special. I would be shocked if Patsy only owned one pair of dress pants and one cashmere.

[BitterApple]

27 minutes ago, WicketyWack said:

I don't put much stock in Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before. As someone else pointed out, she was a secret slob and she might not have done laundry in a while. Also I believe she'd gained weight in the past year and maybe a bit more during the holidays ... she might not have had a lot of outfits that fit her properly. She mentioned in one interview coloring her own hair in the day or two leading up to JonBenet's murder. I would think that a woman of her means would never EVER allow her hair to come into contact with box color -- they make appointments in high-end salons. So her behavior was, to say the least, not predictable or consistent with someone of her wealth. 

I agree. There could be several explanations for Patsy's atypical behavior in the days leading up to the murder. As far as her hair, maybe she didn't have time to get to the salon or her usual stylist was away for the holidays. I'm assuming she was just touching up her roots anyways, which is pretty easy to do with box color. I know for myself, the holidays wreak havoc with my normal routines, eating schedule, sleep schedule etc. It could just be the usual Christmas Chaos that led everyone to say "Aha! She ordered caffeinated coffee at Starbucks, instead of herbal tea! She must be guilty!". I don't put much stock in stuff like that. Every minor detail can be turned into something nefarious.

[Mabinogia]

I'd really have to know if Patsy made a habit of rewearing clothes. I don't typically but have been known to rewear something if I only wore it for a few hours the day before. Of course my closet is probably the size of one of her dresser drawers so it's not like I have a whole lot of options. If I had money I'd find it much easier to just toss my clothes in the hamper rather than lay them out so they are presentable (not wrinkled) enough to wear in public the next day. It's not a huge deal, and on it's own it doesn't point to anything really, it's just so very, very odd. These people just mystify me in everything they did.

 

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

". . . the world . . . " includes his surviving children, Patsy, and everyone else he ever cared for.  So he wants the people he loves to always think of Christmas Day as the day his child was "brutally murdered."

That would be the main reason that I would put December 26th on the headstone.  I would never want my loved ones to associate Christmas Day with a brutal murder.  That says a lot about his selfish state of mind, IMHO.

Seriously! What a colossal, self absorbed asshole. Who want's to forever be reminded of a dead child on Christmas. Maybe if Burke did do it, that was Dad's way of sticking it to him. Making him remember it every freaking year at what is supposed to be a time of celebration. If Burke didn't do it, it just seems unnecessarily cruel to very deliberately ruin Christmas for him forever. I mean, yes, you lost a daughter, but you still have a fucking child to try to care for and carry on for.

 Whether Burke had anything to do with the murder or not,  I pity that boy. He has to have had one incredibly fucked up life, even before that deadly Christmas. His parents are certifiable. He never stood a chance.  

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, WicketyWack said:

I don't put much stock in Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before. As someone else pointed out, she was a secret slob and she might not have done laundry in a while. Also I believe she'd gained weight in the past year and maybe a bit more during the holidays ... she might not have had a lot of outfits that fit her properly. She mentioned in one interview coloring her own hair in the day or two leading up to JonBenet's murder. I would think that a woman of her means would never EVER allow her hair to come into contact with box color -- they make appointments in high-end salons. So her behavior was, to say the least, not predictable or consistent with someone of her wealth. 

It may have been impossible to get a last minute hair color appointment  at Christmas, though, so she touched it up herself.

[Chai]

Someone of her means surely has someone doing the laundry? I find it very odd she would put the same clothes on from the night before. Very very few times have I done that, and when I did, I didn't feel they were "clean" clothes I was wearing. I think whoever said she just never went to bed had it right. (face and hair still done, too).

There was a 911 call placed a few days before JB was found. The caller never said anything. Just hung up. Also Patsy  called and recalled the pediatric doctor

during this time.  I think some thing was going on, but I don't know what.

Sad to think they were planning to go to two other family vacations-- Michigan to their vacation house and a Disney cruise. Its so weird to me to be planning to go on these types of vacations planning to bring diapers and pull ups for a 6 year old. If you figure out why she needs those then you figure out who is causing the sex abuse.

I read a book "See Jane Run" by Joy Fielding.  The story was about a woman who lost her memory during a violent /horrific event. Turns out the horrible event her mind tried to forget was her daughter being victimized by her husband, a doctor. The last thing she did before she "left the house and her mind" was to smash a heavy vase over her husbands head, almost killing him.

[BitterApple]

14 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

 

 Whether Burke had anything to do with the murder or not,  I pity that boy. He has to have had one incredibly fucked up life, even before that deadly Christmas. His parents are certifiable. He never stood a chance.  

I do as well. I think Burke had a tough time carving out his niche in that family. He wasn't the firstborn son. He wasn't the adored baby. He wasn't the "ideal" son some fathers like to brag about (i.e., the athletic alpha male) and it just so happened that his younger sister was beautiful, charming and successful on the pageant circuit. Talk about being the invisible child. I think the incidents with the golf club and the feces are symptomatic of a very angry and resentful young man. His parents did him a great disservice both prior to and after the murder. 

[Cara]

Real Crime Profile has a new podcast up, number 39. They talk a bit about the tests they ran for the show. 

They mention John Douglas, the retired FBI profiler whom the Ramseys hired. They say he didn't have full access to all the information, implying he would have reached a different conclusion.

Does anyone know the last time he spoke publicly about the case? I wonder if his opinion has changed over the years. Has it changed since he ceased to be on the Ramsey payroll?

[TattleTeeny]

I've always respected John Douglas's work, and I'm glad that was brought up in the podcast, which I listened to today. (I hate the way the host says "memoir" in the Audible commercial--"memwaaaaaah"!)

I just started trading Foreign Faction. I like it so far, I guess, but, ooof, there are a lot of typos and editorial errors in it! It's very distracting! 

[EVS]

Burke is suing one of the Drs from the CBS special (Dr Werner Spitz) for $150 million. 

http://my.xfinity.com/articles/entertainment-eonline/20161006/b800378/?cid=featuredent_media_ramsey

Edited October 7, 2016 by EVS

[starri]

Why ONLY Spitz?  And good luck with him having to be deposed.

[AZChristian]

Only Spitz because the suit was based on a radio interview with only Spitz, not on the CBS show (if I read correctly).  They're probably hoping for a quick settlement so depositions won't be necessary (darn it).  Or Spitz will die of old age before the case moves that far forward.  I think it's a way for the Ramseys to say, "See???  He's really innocent; otherwise he wouldn't ask for so much money."  This will never get to court, IMHO.

[Guest]

Burke, quoted in the link above: 

"I can tell you I was very emotional with the attorneys. I would just randomly cry out of nowhere. I guess it's a combination of sitting in there with this weird guy that I never talked to before and asking me all of these personal questions, it's a combination of that and just kind of...at some point you have to move on. I'm not saying I moved on then. It might have been kind of the other end. I didn't really get it. You have to stop crying at some point, I guess."

I always love the, "I cried ... (but you couldn't see me)" excuse. I would bet the $150 million dollars that Burke will never see (because, like AZChristian I don't think this will ever get to court) that Burke never shed a tear about any of this. There's also the little matter of he did say he had "moved on" then. It's right there. On the video tape. He said it when he was what? Nine? Eleven? 

And this rich quote from Lin Wood:

Such false accusations have no place in an orderly society.

HA HA HA HA! Tell that to your client who couldn't find an acquaintance or employee of his in Boulder he wasn't throwing under the bus every five seconds. 

I see they've yet to file their lawsuit against CBS (network). Ain't gonna happen. 

[starri]

1 hour ago, Giant Misfit said:

HA HA HA HA! Tell that to your client who couldn't find an acquaintance or employee of his in Boulder he wasn't throwing under the bus every five seconds. 

Maybe we should encourage Fleet White to sue John.

Wouldn't just ignoring this make it go away faster?  Just a simple "That's ridiculous" statement, and it's old news.  Place a ridiculous valuation on an old man's speculation and you just get people talking about it again.  

Also, given that Burke seems to be living like a veal currently, how exactly is his life damaged to the tune of that kind of money?  Isn't the only way it's slander if Spitz is saying things that he knows are false?

[Joe Jitsu913]

On 10/6/2016 at 4:05 AM, Chai said:

Someone of her means surely has someone doing the laundry?

Linda Hoffman -Pugh was the house keeper who often washed the Ramseys' clothes,  except Patsy wouldn't allow her to wash JonBenet's urine soaked sheets. 

 

http://www.newsweek.com/death-paradise-168946

That evening the police interviewed Linda Hoffmann-Pugh for a third time.

I was working for Merry Maids, a bonded agency, when I met Patsy. Seventy-two dollars a day. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. She was warm and kind. Just a sweet person. But she had a hard time keeping up with the laundry. She was doing lots of charity work and was involved with her children's schooling.

These weren't naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenet's hair. JonBenet spent a lot of her time sitting on her bed watching Shirley Temple movies on her VCR. She loved them all.

She also loved being in pageants. If she didn't want to go, Patsy didn't make her. Nedra, Patsy's mother, used to bring lots of things for JonBenet to wear. Some dresses were made from scratch, but Nedra and Patsy's sister Pam had fun altering most things. They prepared differently for each pageant. Sometimes it would take a month.

In the summer of '96, JonBenet started wearing those diaper-type panties--Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenet started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn't going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I'd come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenet's white blanket would already be in the dryer--a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenet's room.

The more I think about it, JonBenet could not have been killed by a stranger. I didn't even know that room [in the basement] was there. How could a stranger know to go there? How in the world did this happen?

Edited October 8, 2016 by Joe Jitsu913

[BitterApple]

Is that normal for a six year-old to be wetting the bed like that? I can see having the occasional accident, but every night? Did they ever take Jon Benet to a specialist? I wonder why Patsy didn't want the housekeeper washing the sheets when she was already doing everything else. Was she trying to hide the problem?

[Jel]

I think it's a lot more common than many people realize.  Here is what the Mayo Clinic website says about it:

"Generally, bed-wetting before age 7 isn't a concern. At this age, your child may still be developing nighttime bladder control."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bed-wetting/basics/definition/con-20015089

Also, can we infer from that that Patsy didn't want her to wash the sheets? Or just that Patsy did it herself, routinely? If she was trying to hide the fact that JB wet the bed, wouldn't she put fresh sheets on and remake the bed before the housekeeper showed up? 

I read somewhere that Patsy stopped giving JB Pull Ups to wear because she wanted her to feel the wet. That's what some parents do and even some doctors recommend I believe -- so the kid makes an association. (Personally, I'd stay with the pull ups or good nites until the kid's bladder grew/brain development occurred/sleep became less deep; not much chance of any association happening after the fact, but no one's asking :)

ETA: Typically, a kids pattern goes from every night bed wetting, to 5 or 6 nights, then to thee or four, etc, eventually getting to once every few weeks and then finally not at all. Usually resolves by around age 9, but not always.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Jel

[AZChristian]

I've read that JB had pretty much stopped bedwetting, but there are suspicions that something happened a month before the murder which could have caused the start of the bedwetting again.  Stress and psychological reasons are known to cause bedwetting.

[glowlights]

On 10/5/2016 at 5:24 PM, WicketyWack said:

I don't put much stock in Patsy wearing the same clothes as the night before. As someone else pointed out, she was a secret slob and she might not have done laundry in a while. Also I believe she'd gained weight in the past year and maybe a bit more during the holidays ... she might not have had a lot of outfits that fit her properly. She mentioned in one interview coloring her own hair in the day or two leading up to JonBenet's murder. I would think that a woman of her means would never EVER allow her hair to come into contact with box color -- they make appointments in high-end salons. So her behavior was, to say the least, not predictable or consistent with someone of her wealth. 

The trip to Michigan was not planned until last minute, and it was John's idea. To me it's possible she had planned a salon appointment but their schedule got so crazy (two young kids, parties, Christmas, Michigan, cruise, etc.) that she had to go dyi out of necessity. I can't imagine how hectic it must have been. I'd need Ativan too!

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I wonder why Patsy didn't want the housekeeper washing the sheets when she was already doing everything else. Was she trying to hide the problem?

Maybe because it was pee and not just regular old kid dirt that could wait, she felt like she should get it clean ASAP or something? I think I would feel that way too. Oy, who knows?

It's all so crazy. Today, someone gave a thumbs-up to a post I made when I was still mostly in the intruder camp. I was never 100% about it but had, over the years, started to lean away from the RDI theory that I started out with way, way back in the late '90s. Anyway, that comment that someone just liked today was from only a couple of weeks ago! But now, with so much information all laid out on the table in one place (I mean, it's kind of amazing to have so much to ponder! Amazing and daunting too!), I'm really seeing not just the RDI but even the BDI!

I'm still not 100%, I still don't put much stock in certain things that many others find to be a smoking gun, and I still wonder a lot about some stuff that is not tied to the family (oh, and I still do not fault John Douglas or Lou Smit for what I believe was solid work without what we now know)...but I'm now much further in that R/BDI direction than I was before. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[ElDosEquis]

47 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I've read that JB had pretty much stopped bedwetting, but there are suspicions that something happened a month before the murder which could have caused the start of the bedwetting again.  Stress and psychological reasons are known to cause bedwetting.

After the murder, I had many conversations with people about it.

We kinda flipped back an forth about the who, what and where's about this case.

I thought that maybe Patsy had killed JBR in a rage after getting fed up over her bedwetting.

Now? Not so much.

----

I heard a news report about the lawsuit - the talking head mentioned what Dipshit.....ah......Burke's lawyer said about the

lawsuit against Spitz. He said that they were 'trying to figure out' what I's and T's needed attention before they sued CBS.

It makes perfect sense - waiting for Spitz to pass - than it is to take on a juggernaut with the lawyers that the network has. 

I was looking at stills from the dr phil show and I thought, 'who does this little dick look like, he has the eyes of a fucking crazy person' and it hit me......martin shrekli.

[ghoulina]

Bedwetting at age 6 isn't a HUGE deal. I have a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old. They still both do it on occasion. Not often, but it happens. Every night sounds excessive, but it is possible the child's bladder just isn't large/strong enough yet. Also, if they're the type of kids who are getting up and getting snacks in the night, she may have been drinking too much before bed. But the thing that I would want to know was, had she always been wetting the bed like this? I mean, ever since she became potty trained during the day? If so, NBD. But Linda HP says in the summer she was 6 she STARTED wearing pull ups. Does that mean she hadn't really been a bedwetter til then? Or were they using something else prior to the pullups? Starting a habit of wetting the bed at age 6 WOULD strike me as odd.

[AZChristian]

My understanding is that she had accidents once in a while, but that the bedwetting became much more frequent about a month before she was killed.

[ElDosEquis]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

My understanding is that she had accidents once in a while, but that the bedwetting became much more frequent about a month before she was killed.

After digesting more of the facts of the case - the bedwetting and feces smearing - and trying to figure out how they tie into the case?

I wondered if Burke was molesting JBR - if so, could that have stressed her to wet her bed again?

Also, I don't get what the feces smearing was about.

Why was it done? For 'shits' and giggles? As a message?

But why would a kidnapper leave a message like that - there was no need to -  to me that was a childish act and why smear it on the candy that she got as a gift?

In most murder cases, the answers fit the questions, in this one?

[MsTree]

If JB started wetting the bed very recent (prior to death), and was possibly being molested (by whomever), it could have been a defense mechanism for her thinking that "if I wet my bed, they won't want to come into my bed and do that to me". IOW, make the bed/sheets uninviting to the molester.

[Queena]

4 hours ago, ElDosEquis said:

After digesting more of the facts of the case - the bedwetting and feces smearing - and trying to figure out how they tie into the case?

I wondered if Burke was molesting JBR - if so, could that have stressed her to wet her bed again?

Also, I don't get what the feces smearing was about.

Why was it done? For 'shits' and giggles? As a message?

But why would a kidnapper leave a message like that - there was no need to -  to me that was a childish act and why smear it on the candy that she got as a gift?

In most murder cases, the answers fit the questions, in this one?

 

I see what you did there. 

 

This entire case is disturbing. I've been reading about child psychopaths, and it's very scary. I hope that if my child starts exhibiting disturbing signs, I'm able to get him the help that he needs.