JonBenet Ramsey

[Ilovecomputers]

Darney Hoffman's analysis is also very compelling. It is too long to insert here, but hopefully this link will work: 

Darney Hoffman's analysis

This analysis hinted at marital strife, which is the first time I've seen that suggested. 

[ghoulina]

Yea, I feel like this diatribe from the maid is a bit sensational and doesn't really gibe with all the stuff I've read about this case. It's like HP is trying to paint herself as someone really close to Patsy, who would just be able to figure it all out because she knows Patsy so well, and what she would do. I definitely think Patsy had a large part in the staging, but I don't agree with the rest of it. She's thinking about it like a Lifetime movie and not a family she once supposedly loved and cared for. The whole thing is really odd. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

(Yes, I ended the sentence with a preposition.  Deal with it.)

Haha, editor here. It's fine. No one cares about that anymore (or should I say that that is something about which no one cares anymore?).

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

Yea, I feel like this diatribe from the maid is a bit sensational and doesn't really gibe with all the stuff I've read about this case. It's like HP is trying to paint herself as someone really close to Patsy, who would just be able to figure it all out because she knows Patsy so well, and what she would do. I definitely think Patsy had a large part in the staging, but I don't agree with the rest of it. She's thinking about it like a Lifetime movie and not a family she once supposedly loved and cared for. The whole thing is really odd. 

She also has previously reported that the bed-wetting seemed not to have been a big deal for Patsy.

[glowlights]

21 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

As a person who reads/watches a lot of true crime, I actually think that you can feel sorry for a criminal, even a murderer, in the context of what went on with that person to make him or her into a monster. By no means do I think that doing that absolves the person for a crime, or makes that person into a martyr; it shows that we are not monsters and have the ability to consider more than just the terrible actions. 

I have compassion for people as fellow humans, even the "bad" ones. But for me that's different than feeling sorry for someone who, let's say, deliberately covered up a murder and misled law enforcement, wasting millions of taxpayer dollars and courted the spotlight in the process. Actions have consequences. My sympathies are with the victim and the people working to solve the crime. Of course Patsy might be completely innocent in all of this. I really have no idea.

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Poor Linda - she was probably writing this while trying to duck the bus that Patsy was trying to throw her under.  (Yes, I ended the sentence with a preposition.  Deal with it.)

Ladies and gents, I believe we've found the killer! Only a savage would end their sentence with a preposition. :D

ETA: that housekeeper sounds bonkers

Edited November 18, 2016 by glowlights
housekeeper

[AZChristian]

1 minute ago, glowlights said:

Ladies and gents, I believe we've found the killer! Only a savage would end their sentence with a preposition. :D

I ain't scared.  The District Attorney in Boulder would plea bargain it down to jaywalking and give me a suspended sentence, with 20 minutes of probation.

[TattleTeeny]

I know this is super-judgy of me but it's a gut feeling that I can't help from creeping in, and it is that I am not surprised Patsy is so...Patsy...with a mom like that. OK, yes, I know we have not seen all that much of that mom, but there's just something.

Off topic (I'm sorry!), but is there a forum here for The Staircase? Either I am dumb or my search isn't cooperating with me. Or both.

Edited November 18, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[AZChristian]

55 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Off topic (I'm sorry!), but is there a forum here for The Staircase? Either I am dumb or my search isn't cooperating with me. Or both.

There wasn't a thread for it in this section of PTV, but I just submitted one.  Fascinating case of Kathleen Peterson's death, and whether her husband, Michael Peterson, did it.

It think he did.  

Let's hope the mods approve the new thread!!!

[TattleTeeny]

Oooh, thanks! I have serious "blowpoke" questions I want to ask!

I think...that I don't think he did it. Or at least, more accurately, I personally would not feel comfortable submitting a guilty verdict if I were a juror.

Edited November 18, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[starri]

I don't know if we need an entire forum, but that's just me.

[ghoulina]

ooooh, other Staircase watchers. Let me know if the forum gets approved. I watched it quite awhile back and tried to find one then. My memory is probably hazy, but I think he did it, but I don't know that I'd be able to convict. 

[TattleTeeny]

I think one thread would work fine; I actually find it a bit crazy when one crime topic is scattered around in various areas (oy, JonBenét!), other than, say, Lifetime movie vs. docs.

[AZChristian]

I've just started reading the book "written" by John and Patsy.  They haven't even found the body yet, but two things are SCREAMING out from what John wrote:

1) He went down into the basement, saw the suitcase under the window, thought it odd, and wondered whether a kidnapped might have used that as a way to get out.  But he went back upstairs and DID NOT MENTION IT TO THE POLICE????

2) He says he kept wondering where the FBI was.  According to other books, the FBI agent went first to the Boulder Police Station; before he had a chance to leave there to go to the Ramsey's house, they had already found the body.  Since it was a murder at that point and not a kidnapping, the FBI no longer had jurisdiction.  Anyway, John says he wanted more people involved - more police, the FBI, etc.  But he never said to any of the police on scene, "Where is the FBI????"  

This book is just cementing what I've already felt.  Both parents were involved in at least the cover-up portion of this.

[glowlights]

Did he say WHY he didn't mention the suitcase to police? I mean, that's a pretty big deal if everyone's trying to figure out who took your daugher.

[AZChristian]

Nope.  No explanation.  He also didn't mention to the police that he saw a strange vehicle parked behind a neighbor's house.

He's full of excrement.

[glowlights]

Then I can't fathom why he even put it in the book. Why did he mention something that makes him look suspicious and not offer an explanation? Sorry but these Ramsey folks seem like weirdos.

[AZChristian]

Now he's talking about the CNN interview.  He says they edited it to make him look cold and Patsy look overly dramatic.  (Well, they couldn't have done that if he wasn't cold and Patsy wasn't overly dramatic.)

[glowlights]

Was the Larry King appearance "editing" too?

[Joe Jitsu913]

5 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I've just started reading the book "written" by John and Patsy.  They haven't even found the body yet, but two things are SCREAMING out from what John wrote:

1) He went down into the basement, saw the suitcase under the window, thought it odd, and wondered whether a kidnapped might have used that as a way to get out.  But he went back upstairs and DID NOT MENTION IT TO THE POLICE????

2) He says he kept wondering where the FBI was.  According to other books, the FBI agent went first to the Boulder Police Station; before he had a chance to leave there to go to the Ramsey's house, they had already found the body.  Since it was a murder at that point and not a kidnapping, the FBI no longer had jurisdiction.  Anyway, John says he wanted more people involved - more police, the FBI, etc.  But he never said to any of the police on scene, "Where is the FBI????"  

This book is just cementing what I've already felt.  Both parents were involved in at least the cover-up portion of this.

FBI was involved from day 1 and even showed up at the Ramsey home . Ron Walker studied the ransom note and knew it was a homicide. I believe he showed up to the home after JBR had been placed under the Christmas tree. This has been pointed out to the Ramseys before and they choose to ignore this fact. The Ramseys even paid FBI profiler John Douglas to do a criminal profile of the killer. The Ramseys are full of shit.

[Joe Jitsu913]

34 minutes ago, glowlights said:

Was the Larry King appearance "editing" too?

When Patsy called into Larry King live one time and said that Jonbenet was "the People's Princess", she told Nedra that was going to let God choose her words when speaking on air. 

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

The Ramseys even paid FBI profiler John Douglas to do a criminal profile of the killer. The Ramseys are full of shit.

I've never put much stock in FBI profiles. Whenever I hear a "profiler" speak on a true-crime show, the suspect is always between the ages of 20-40, white, "probably" unemployed, and has trouble with his relationships with women.  

After 20 years, John Ramsey probably doesn't know what the truth is--he's convinced himself of what he believes to be true.  Officially I have now moved from the Burke-did-it camp to the Patsy-did-it camp.

[glowlights]

10 minutes ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

When Patsy called into Larry King live one time and said that Jonbenet was "the People's Princess", she told Nedra that was going to let God choose her words when speaking on air. 

TIL God is a terrible speech writer.

[AZChristian]

I've just finished reading the chapter where Patsy talks about her cancer.  She describes how others at the hospital called her an angel, and how she felt like losing JB would make them more useful to God as witnesses of His love.

I am a Christian.  But I'm one of those Christians who would never hire a licensed contractor just because he has a little fish on his truck.  I've learned that it just means that he'll cheat you like any other dishonest contractor, but he is different only in that he has a fish on his truck.  In other words, going to church doesn't make you a real Christian any more than going into a garage makes you a car.

[Joe Jitsu913]

24 minutes ago, Ilovecomputers said:

I've never put much stock in FBI profiles. Whenever I hear a "profiler" speak on a true-crime show, the suspect is always between the ages of 20-40, white, "probably" unemployed, and has trouble with his relationships with women.  

After 20 years, John Ramsey probably doesn't know what the truth is--he's convinced himself of what he believes to be true.  Officially I have now moved from the Burke-did-it camp to the Patsy-did-it camp.

Serial killers are usually white males who hate women and will usually only kill within their race which is why most profilers tend to rely on this when profiling. John Douglas is what I consider a "celebrity profiler". He's probably the most well known profiler around. I know of a case where he predicted that the suspect of a homicide would be driving a VW van and he was right. 

For the Ramseys to say that FBI  was not involved is a crock of shit. 

[starri]

3 minutes ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

Serial killers are usually white males who hate women and will usually only kill within their race which is why most profilers tend to rely on this when profiling.

I wonder if that's confirmation bias.

The media love white female victims.  Women of color (worse, men of color, as Jeffrey Dahmer's victims were) don't make for as good a headline.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Serial killers are usually white males who hate women and will usually only kill within their race which is why most profilers tend to rely on this when profiling. John Douglas is what I consider a "celebrity profiler". He's probably the most well known profiler around. I know of a case where he predicted that the suspect of a homicide would be driving a VW van and he was right. 

What is it with them and VWs, man? And, yes to that "within their race" stuff--it's crucial! Remember everyone during the Atlanta child murderers thought for sure it was a white racist but the profiler(s) said that a white person would be too suspicious in the area. And it turns out it was a black man.

Edited November 22, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

I've just finished reading the chapter where Patsy talks about her cancer.  She describes how others at the hospital called her an angel, and how she felt like losing JB would make them more useful to God as witnesses of His love.

This--like what a lot of what Patsy said--makes no sense to me at all. 

I would like to know more about Patsy's childhood and specifically if she was molested as a child. Thomas' book said a dictionary in one of the Ramseys' many rooms was dog-eared and pointed to "incest."

Wasn't there a series of unexplained calls to 911 in the days before the death of JB?  It would be useless to ask John about those because he was clueless about what was going on in his own home. 

Quote

Remember everyone during the Atlanta child murderers thought for sure it was a white racist but the profiler(s) said that a white person would be too suspicious in the area. And it turns out it was a black man.

According to Wikipedia, Wayne Williams was convicted of killing two adults--no children. He maintains he is innocent and that there was a cover-up to hide KKK involvement of the murdered children. 

[AZChristian]

Let's check out John Ramsey's truthfulness, based on his own words and actual facts.  He writes about a series of break-ins that were reported by the Boulder police, which John says "apparently dated back to December 12, 1996" (JB died on Christmas night of 1996).  According to John, "Common information appeared to link the crimes to the northwest part of the city, although they affected other areas of Boulder as well.  Our home was located north of Baseline Road and west of Twenty-Eighth Street, which could be considered the northwest portion."  (Emphasis added.)

Attached is a Google map on which I have shown the greater Boulder area, with a red "X" showing the location of the Ramsey house.  Do NOT look anywhere near the top left (northwest) portion of this map for that X.

 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

According to Wikipedia, Wayne Williams was convicted of killing two adults--no children. He maintains he is innocent and that there was a cover-up to hide KKK involvement of the murdered children. 

Ooops, my mistake (not that I doubt that it was WW).

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Ilovecomputers said:

Wasn't there a series of unexplained calls to 911 in the days before the death of JB?

I believe there was one 911 call made at one of their friends homes. The Whites from the night before? It was made during a Christmas party I believe, but nothing ever came of it. 

There were also, I believe, 3 calls placed to JB's pediatrician within the span of an hour, in the week before her death. I don't think those calls have ever been explained. 

[AZChristian]

According to John, the 911 call from the Whites' home was a misdial by Fleet when he was trying to call somewhere else.

[ghoulina]

12 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

 

According to John, the 911 call from the Whites' home was a misdial by Fleet when he was trying to call somewhere else.

 

LOL, who was he trying to call? Someone with the number - 911-9191? 

[glowlights]

I think the excuse was that they had multiple lines and you had to dial 1 to get an outside line. Which still doesn't make sense. They should have just said the kids were horsing around with the phone.

[AZChristian]

Well, at most offices, you have to dial "9" to get an outside line; then if it's long distance, you have to dial "1" before the area code.  That's why there are no area codes that start with "1"; too much potential for confusion and misdials.  To be honest, I have (in my working days) picked up my home phone and dialed "9" . . . but I can't recall in all those years accidentally dialing "9-1-1."

[Joe Jitsu913]

10 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

What is it with them and VWs, man? And, yes to that "within their race" stuff--it's crucial! Remember everyone during the Atlanta child murderers thought for sure it was a white racist but the profiler(s) said that a white person would be too suspicious in the area. And it turns out it was a black man.

This is why Jeffrey Dahmer was an anomaly. He murdered men outside his race. 

 

 

As for John Douglas,  he did admit in his book "The Cases that Haunt Us", that Jonbenet's acute injury to her vagina was the work of someone who was sexually inexperienced.  She was basically jabbed with a paint brush handle and this wasn't for sexual gratification but more curiosity.  This is why he said Jonbenet's killer was a younger male. 

 

Keep in mind, John Douglas was not given all of the evidence to examine. I find his statement about the paintbrush handle to be interesting. We all know that a younger male lived with JBR. 

[starri]

2 hours ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

This is why Jeffrey Dahmer was an anomaly. He murdered men outside his race. 

Latino Richard Ramirez killed white and Asian people.  Several victims of Kenneth Bianci and Angelo Buono were black, as was one of the victims of the Boston Strangler, as one one of the Cleveland Torso Murders.

It's not as much of an anomaly as John Douglas would like you to believe.

[hatchetgirl]

Goodness, I've just started to watch this.  JBR has haunted me forever.  I thought it was someone in that house from day one.  I never believed the kidnapping story.  

I've never been able to watch toddlers and tiaras because of this.  :(

That poor little girl never had a chance.   

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

It's not as much of an anomaly as John Douglas would like you to believe.

Quote

This is why Jeffrey Dahmer was an anomaly. He murdered men outside his race. 

I never meant to imply it doesn't happen--I already know that it does. Just that it's an important thing to look at when considering where a person might stand out.

[Joe Jitsu913]

This video contains an interview with FBI agent Ron Walker where he talks about his involvement with the Ramsey case. John is also featured and he blatantly lies about the FBI not being involved. Ron arrived 15 minutes after JBR's body was found so John Ramsey would have still been at the home when Walker arrived. 

 

[AZChristian]

Just finished the part in the Ramsey's book where John says they set up hidden surveillance cameras because the house had been broken into.  He said the police found the cameras and were paranoid in believing that the cameras were set up to spy on them.

My question:  If they WEREN'T put there to spy on the police, WHY weren't the police told they were there?

Oh, and Patsy talks about someone having given her a cross necklace with a little medallion.  When she looked closely at it, she saw that it was a medallion of Mary, holding the baby Jesus.  She said she had such an "empathy" for Mary, because "She watched her child being murdered."  Does anyone else find that a strange choice of words?

Edited November 23, 2016 by AZChristian

[Joe Jitsu913]

7 hours ago, starri said:

Latino Richard Ramirez killed white and Asian people.  Several victims of Kenneth Bianci and Angelo Buono were black, as was one of the victims of the Boston Strangler, as one one of the Cleveland Torso Murders.

It's not as much of an anomaly as John Douglas would like you to believe.

I'm not saying it's unheard of. It's just not as prevalent. Jeffrey Dahmer was unique in that he killed  men outside of his race. Serial killers have a "type" that they focus on.  

[ghoulina]

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Oh, and Patsy talks about someone having given her a cross necklace with a little medallion.  When she looked closely at it, she saw that it was a medallion of Mary, holding the baby Jesus.  She said she had such an "empathy" for Mary, because "She watched her child being murdered."  Does anyone else find that a strange choice of words?

Interesting. That might very well have been a slip up. I read Kohler's book and he caught several things like that - things that, while not evidence, certainly seemed incriminating. 

[glowlights]

14 hours ago, Joe Jitsu913 said:

This video contains an interview with FBI agent Ron Walker where he talks about his involvement with the Ramsey case. John is also featured and he blatantly lies about the FBI not being involved. Ron arrived 15 minutes after JBR's body was found so John Ramsey would have still been at the home when Walker arrived.

I'm curious about the blatant lying. Pageants were only a couple of Sundays out of JonBenet's life. The FBI were not there. etc. Anyone have theories as to why John said easily refuted crap like this?

Jackie Kennedy, the Virgin Mary... Patsy identified with some big names in history! Not to mention her daughter was America's Princess. Gee whiz. Heaven must have a VIP section roped off for her.

[AZChristian]

I think John was so used to being a CEO whose word was law that he transferred that belief to his personal life.  "I say it, so it's true.  Don't question my veracity.  If someone else says something different in their book, don't believe them.  They are lying.  I'm not lying.  Because I said so."

One thing that's surprising me about his part in the book I'm reading is his frequent references to his strong faith.  In one paragraph, he's talking about how much he depends on God's strength to survive the loss of his two daughters, but in the next paragraph he's throwing former close friends and associates under the bus.  

[Mabinogia]

44 minutes ago, glowlights said:

Not to mention her daughter was America's Princess.

I have never seen anyone as into appearances as Patsy Ramsey, which is why her wearing the same clothes seems so not her. She just seemed more concerned with making this some kind of fairytale story, of her being the beautiful, perfect grieving mother. It doesn't mean she had anything to do with it, but it does mean that even in death JonBenet was just a reflection of Patsy and not a person in her own right.

[AZChristian]

7 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I have never seen anyone as into appearances as Patsy Ramsey, which is why her wearing the same clothes seems so not her. 

Interesting piece of information about that.  It got back to Patsy that one of the reasons the cops thought she had been involved in JB's death or the cover-up was that she was wearing the same clothes as the night before, and the police were of the opinion that "she was a fashion plate and would never be seen wearing the same outfit two days in a row."

Several months later, they finally got the Ramseys to sit down and be interviewed by the police.  THE NEXT DAY, the Ramseys filmed one of their interviews with one of the networks.  Patsy wore the SAME OUTFIT that she had worn the day before.  The police thought it was a smug way for her to say to them, "See?  I do wear the same clothes two days in a row."

Conniving, that one.

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

Jackie Kennedy, the Virgin Mary... Patsy identified with some big names in history! Not to mention her daughter was America's Princess. Gee whiz. Heaven must have a VIP section roped off for her.

I'm surprised Patsy didn't compare John to Jesus because of his persecution and "crucifixion" by the public. 

[glowlights]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I think John was so used to being a CEO whose word was law that he transferred that belief to his personal life.  "I say it, so it's true.  Don't question my veracity.  If someone else says something different in their book, don't believe them.  They are lying.  I'm not lying.  Because I said so."

Except even CEOs at private companies have to deal in facts. But I agree that he has an imperious "I'm the boss" air about him and certainly a dismissive attitude to law enforcement. Actually, he comes across as a true narcissist. Complete with martyr complex. Come to think of it, telling whoppers effortlessly is a hallmark of narcissism, too. Hmmm.

[TattleTeeny]

I vote for a comprehensive tome penned by Joe Jitsu913. I'll even volunteer my time and copy editing experience.

Edited November 23, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Joe Jitsu913]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:10 AM, Mabinogia said:

I have never seen anyone as into appearances as Patsy Ramsey, which is why her wearing the same clothes seems so not her. She just seemed more concerned with making this some kind of fairytale story, of her being the beautiful, perfect grieving mother. It doesn't mean she had anything to do with it, but it does mean that even in death JonBenet was just a reflection of Patsy and not a person in her own right.

Patsy carried a blue dress with her at all times so she could be camera ready if the killer was ever found. If she had to be interviewed she could just slip into the blue dress.