S06.E01: The Savior

[KAOS Agent]

I finally got around to watching and I have to say I was really, really bored. It was also ridiculously disjointed with way too many unconnected plots. I don't care about any of it. That's not a good sign. Of course, I forgot to record it last night even though I knew it would be on, which is also not a good sign.

Some notes:

- Zelena sure is chipper for someone who killed her True Love a day ago. I guess that bike ride really wasn't all that great. Hades? Who's Hades?

- I liked Zelena and Regina's roommate problems. It was organic to the story and made some sort of sense (unlike some other stupid relationship storylines I could mention). It's too bad it couldn't continue for a few more episodes. Sisterly squabbles could help lighten things up a bit. Instead we'll get Zelena torn between which sister she likes best.

- The Emma has a secret and lying about it thing is just so ridiculously contrived and stupid, it's not even worth discussing. When a story is clearly not about the character or how they would realistically react, but instead has a flashing sign above it that reads "Much Drama and Angst Here!" with photos of the writers under it, I can't be bothered to care or get upset with the characters involved.

- Not a fan of anyone siccing a therapist on another person. Your family tells me you have issues. Let's talk. Not appropriate, Snow. You think Emma needs help? You talk to her and suggest that if she's not comfortable talking with you, then maybe someone like Archie could help. Not that Mr. I Hang Out in Cleavage while in Cricket Form is a decent therapist anyway. We know he talks about private sessions to others (see: Regina's sessions in S2) and he's one of the reasons Emma grew up alone and has the issues she does, so that right there that makes him a bad choice to work with her. 

- Morpheus totally looks like he could be Rumpel's kid. A+ casting. Loved him so much. Trolling Rumpel is always fun and I adore that his fetus already hates him because he's a lying, power hungry asshole. Very confused about why Rumpel would take Belle home to the town he sold to Hyde.

- The Continuity Fairy really messed up with this one. David gets off the phone saying, "No sign of Hyde or Hyde's friends on the north side" and less than a minute later, Snow says, "Hyde is locked up. He can't hurt you." There were three lines of dialogue between those two quotes. Three. 

- Best part of the episode? Minimal Henry.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm all for the fairy tale characters in real world situations, but at the same time, these people have had the curse download. It would have been interesting if they had done something with Hook, Elsa, Tink or Ursula because these characters didn't have a clue. Lights? Totes normal! Cars? We know cars! Plumbing? Used to it.

They had a scene with Tink using the bathroom right after they arrived in Storybrooke. Was there drying paper or was it a blow drier? 

Regarding Emma's secret, they seem to be going down the Snowing road in Neverland when David lied about dying, then lied about having to stay there. Snow got it, but she was also pretty pissed at him, told him he didn't believe in them enough. I'm expecting something like this when the secret finally comes out.

And even when it comes out, do Hook and Snowing find out the whole thing, or do they find out just a piece of it? 

Right now Emma is keeping her tremors, the fact that there were other Saviors before that got brought down by their nemesis, and the visions which are supposed to be how her life ends. Does she come out with everything, or does she tell half of it and keeps the rest to herself.

And the vision is really weird. Henry standing off to the side while Emma is fighting, I get. Hook, David and Snow? No way do these guys just stand around while Emma is struggling. They wouldn't be just spectator.

[CCTC]

I don't have time to write much now, but I thought it was decent, if not great episode.  I enjoyed it.

I don't think it is that out of character for Emma to keep this a secret.  She is still trying to process what is going on and probably does not know what to think.  Also, when someone has a break-through with letting her walls down, it is not that unusual to fall back into your old habits when faced with a life changing situation or at least need some processing time.

I thought the scenes with Zelena and Regina were well done.  And while, in reality it does not make since for Snow and Regina to be friends, they have been in each other's lives more than any other character and have a long intertwined history and know each other well, so I can understand their scenes (although I agree in the real world Snow would not have anything to do with her).   I know there have been complaints about not enough down time and people talking, but I thought they had a fair amount of it in this episode, it just was not with the people this board wanted. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Did we get - or have we gotten - an explanation for why Hyde can't be stopped by magic?  Or for how he is all knowing and all seeing?  He seems ridiculously powerful for just being Hyde.

All the villains are always immune to magic, which makes magic pretty useless. It's a contrivance. Everyone's got magic: Emma, Regina, Gold, the Blue Fairy . . . so in theory no villain has a chance against them unless they have more powerful magic and/or are immune to magic. Cruella deVille, for example, does not traditionally have any magic powers in the 101 Dalmatian stories but on this show, she does. By the same token, apparently, the traditionally mortal Mr. Hyde is somehow impervious to magic for some unexplained reason.

[Dianthus]

I liked the 'look at your hand' scene a whole lot better in the CS movie. A small, breathe-y type scene would've been totes doable right here. Hook takes Emma's trembling hand in his and brushes his thumb across her knuckles, maybe even lifts her hand to his lips for a tender kiss. It's so much more in character (IMO), to have him being patient and romantic and not pressuring her. As someone else (Shanna Marie?) said up-thread, the characters really seem to be acting with knowledge they shouldn't have.

[Shanna Marie]

Okay, I think I've fixed it: When they get to the airship wreckage, they find a body (it can be tastefully obscured by part of the balloon, in case they're strangely squeamish all of a sudden after showing Hook's dead/bleeding/tortured body last season), indicating that not everyone survived the crash (if we want to really make things interesting, we can have actual crime solving and it turns out that the person was killed before the crash). Emma notices Hook react to seeing the body, and she knows he's not dainty about death or blood, so she knows something's up. She asks him about it, and since he's generally pretty open, he admits that he has a very different perspective on death now. He couldn't help but think about where that person is now, but if he had unfinished business, at least he won't be facing Hades in the Underworld and Arthur may be able to help him. Soon after that, Emma has her first vision/shakes episode, but no one thinks anything of it because they know she's tired. They just suggest she get some rest, but that's when Hyde shows up, and catching him becomes a priority. Archie doesn't come because the characters haven't read ahead in the script to know that Emma needs more than a nap. She seeks him out on her own in a later episode. When Hook later notices a shaking spell, she's already worried about him and doesn't want to give him anything else to worry about, so she lies and says she just needs some rest. She suggests that they split up to cover more ground so they can get done with the searching faster, and that's when she follows the bird. Ta da! We still have her keeping the secret, but she looks less like a moron for doing so and it's not about her walls but rather her being independent about solving her own problems while also protecting Hook, who would probably freak out at the thought of her dying, and it's less weird that Snow sent Archie to her own daughter while going herself to talk to Regina.

[Camera One]

I liked that scenario, since it actually shows some continuity from the arc in 5B.   Someone could literally have quit after the "Frozen" arc, with the last episode they watched being "Heroes and Villains", and they wouldn't have known Emma had become The Dark One, or that Hook had died from this episode.  It's like the entire last season was a moot point.  They would only have been confused about why Zelena was nice and still alive.  

The only thing also missing from that fix is there is still no scene or role between Emma and Snow, and Emma and Charming.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Camera One

[darkestboy]

Somewhat better than anything the first half of Season 5 produced and on a par with anything from the latter half of that season as well to be honest.

The saviour storyline sounds a little more interesting than Emma as the Dark One from last season. She'll die but it won't stick and so on. I do love the needling with her and Hyde though, who is a brilliant baddie.

Redbird is totally Iago, right? Also more Aladdin/Jafar scenes. I'm not greedy but I still want more of that though.

Zelena and Evil Regina could be an interesting temporary team up. Kind of don't blame our Regina for losing it a little with Zelena in this one. Great Regina/Snow scenes.

Having Captain Swan as background helps the show and that pairing as well.

Loved the Beauty And The Beast stuff with Belle and Rumple. The Morpheus twist was a little predictable but I like it though, 8/10

[Mathius]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

Someone could literally have quit after the "Frozen" arc, with the last episode they watched being "Heroes and Villains", and they wouldn't have known Emma had become The Dark One, or that Hook had died from this episode.  It's like the entire last season was a moot point.  They would only have been confused about why Zelena was nice and still alive.

Season 4 is also a moot point.  Nobody ever talks about the "Frozen" stuff anymore, and I believe it's been noted around here that 4B has become even more pointless in retrospect than it already was.  There are small carry-aways like Zelena being alive and Henry being the new Author from 4B, or Robin's death and Belle's pregnancy from 5B, but otherwise the actual main events of the arcs have no long-lasting consequences.  3B was the last time where events mattered in the long run (Neal died, Regina got a love interest and became an official hero, Snowing had a new baby, Zelena was introduced, and of course Emma and Hook got together).  Afterwards, the show has been largely running on a status quo, and I can't see any of Season 6's story arcs changing it in any way.  Emma either won't die or she'll die and get revived and it won't matter ala Hook, Regina will inevitably re-absorb the Evil Queen and (much like Operation Mongoose) will never bring this lesson she learned up again, and all the Land of Untold Stories immigrants will be gone (or, if any of them stay, recede into the background).  Despite what A&E think, they don't really evolve this show at all.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Mathius

[kingshearte]

31 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Despite what A&E think, they don't really evolve this show at all.

Maybe that's the way to look at it and not be crazy annoyed with how little lasting growth the characters actually achieve. Pretend that every half season is the first season, and we've never met any of these characters before. That way, we get to watch them grow and learn things by the end, and not worry about the fact that this is actually the nth time they've learned that exact lesson and that they will have forgotten it by the next season.

I'm actually tempted to rewatch this episode and then proceed with watching this season with that mindset...

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'm actually tempted to rewatch this episode and then proceed with watching this season with that mindset...

Honestly, it would make the premiere worse. I was watching with people who had that mindset and they were totally lost. This episode didn't do a very good job reintroducing the characters at all.

[cardigirl]

I've enjoyed this show off and on, and lately more off than on.  An example of what really bothers me in this episode ( and the show in general) was Belle and Rumple dancing to the music from the Disney animated story of Beauty and the Beast.  I know Disney owns the show, but talk about an incestuous relationship with the marketers.  Geeez.  I'm all for retelling the stories, adding in new twists, etc, but when they started playing "Tale as old as time..."  I was squicked out and stopped watching.   

The last entire series I enjoyed watching was the Peter Pan series.  Now I just catch the show occasionally.  Sigh.  I used to really like it.

[zumpie]

Hey Adam, there IS, in fact, desert in BC (and, for that matter Oregon and Washington----just past the Cascades, BTW---about two hours from the cities where everyone lives). However, there does NOT appear to be any plains. Filming in a desert location is actually pretty easy/nearby in the PNW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okanagan_Desert

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_British_Columbia

[iMonrey]

Quote

 it's less weird that Snow sent Archie to her own daughter while going herself to talk to Regina.

I can't decide if Regina is really an overwhelming fan favorite or if Kitsis/Horowitz just think she is because they're obsessed with her. There's no question The Evil Queen is an iconic part of Snow White's story, but using Snow to redeem Regina is irrational. Henry or even Emma serve that purpose more realistically. The idea that Snow and Regina are somehow "friends" now is absurd. Regina killed Snow's father. You don't just go "Oh, sorry I killed your dad," and have the daughter go "No big, water under the bridge, let's be pals." It doesn't matter how sorry Regina is. It doesn't matter how many "good deeds" she performs after the fact or how many times she apologizes. We don't let murderers walk around free in our society, we either execute them or imprison them for life. Why should it be any different for Regina? She wasn't under the influence of a spell or possessed by an evil spirit, she simply made those choices herself. 

This attempt to redefine Regina and gloss over the untold number of people she has murdered is really the hardest part of the show to get past right now.

Edited September 28, 2016 by iMonrey

[Joanh23]

I just rewatched the episode and I liked it.  I expected to see more of Aladdin and Jafar during the episode so I was pleasantly surprised that we only saw them in that first scene.  

I liked the twist with Morpheus and while I loved that Belle kicked Rumple to touch when she woke up, I wish I had more faith that Belle would actually stick with her decision coz I'm sure that by the mid season finale she'll be back with Rumple.

I liked the scenes between Regina and Snow, and I did like that Regina finally admitted that she was a terrible step mother to Snow.  I'm still not looking forward to seeing the Regina v Evil Queen, but I did like this start for Regina, however long it may continue!

I liked the Emma/Hyde scenes - he really knows how to manipulate her, and I'm looking forward to seeing more scenes with them.  I do wish Emma and Hook were allowed one night of uninterrupted fun before the next crisis hit - but damn their scene on the couch was good.  While I get why Emma didn't tell Hook what was going on I still don't like that she's lying to him, I'm just hoping it won't go on for too long.  That said I am looking forward to seeing Emma/Archie therapy sessions!

Overall I think it was a solid start to S6.

[KingOfHearts]

It would be interesting if Vanilla!Regina was always painfully aware of the darkness that's been in her life. It would be new to her to have... *gasp* remorse. She wouldn't know what to do with it. I think we saw a little bit of that when she mentioned to Snow she was a bad stepmother. When she was angry to Zelena, it was like she felt bad about it, but she didn't know how to handle it. It would have been funny if Regina had been creepily nice to everyone and apologized for every little thing. But the writers don't really want to make her as different as she should be.

[Curio]

If you go to ABC's website and look up the OUAT videos section, there's one that's titled Regina Apologizes to Snow. Here's the thing—Regina never actually apologized in that conversation. There was exactly one "sorry" uttered in that conversation, and it was said by Snow: "I'm so sorry, Regina." Saying you were an awful stepmother isn't technically an apology, it's admitting the obvious. Her voice might have been apologetic, and she might have had tears in her eyes and sounded remorseful, but we're still missing that important 's' word. (And no, it's not Savior.)

When I saw this scene live, I didn't initially catch that Snow corrected herself and changed "you" to "Evil Queen." It just sounded like Ginny's voice was starting to hiccup from being so emotional. So not only does Snow go along with the illogical premise that Regina wasn't Regina all along (even though Snow is the one character on the show who saw Regina transform herself into the person she became), but she also enables her by giving Regina a gold star for bad behavior. It's the Camelot dagger REC all over again where Emma praised Regina for doing something bad. 

Ginny and Lana acted this scene very well, but it's all too little too late for me. If this was shown in Season 3 it would have really made an impact and may have warmed me to Regina more, but by waiting until Season 6, it loses me completely.

[Rumsy4]

Six seasons in, it still feels manipulative and shallow. Maybe the lesson is for both Snow and Regina to understand you can't erase your past by cutting off a part of yourself, but these people should already know that from season 4B. And maybe by the season finale, Regina will finally apologize to Snow. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Camera One]

Quote

 

 And maybe by the season finale, Regina will finally apologize to Snow. But I'm not holding my breath.

Yes, don't hold your breath.  It's almost funny how they gave that clip that title.  To A&E, Regina doesn't need to apologize to Snow.  Because "it's complicated".   Apparently, the ABC folks feel the same.  I guess they all subscribe to the How to say you're sorry without saying you're sorry type of apology.

I didn't initially catch that Snow corrected herself and changed "you" to "Evil Queen."

Freudian slip?

Edited September 29, 2016 by Camera One

[AudienceofOne]

Not too bad an episode in the end, although I hated maybe the first 15 minutes. All that annoying 'saviour' talk with Jafar and Aladdin was so heavy-handed I nearly turned the episode off.

I had said to a friend before I watched this episode that I was so annoyed that we never got any decent Captain Swan time. Would it kill them to show the two waking up together in the morning or cooking breakfast or watching Netflix or some proof they have a real relationship other than silly 'Twu Wuv' moments? Then I said, "God I hope they don't do that stupid TV thing where they try to tell you a couple who are in love and have been together for a certain period of time haven't had sex yet" and then 5 minutes in... OMFG.

Not to mention the blocking of that scene was awkward as hell. I had to endure Robin and Regina committing adultery on people's graves and this is what I get for Captain Swan?

Having said that, the rest of the episode I did not hate. I didn't even mind the Snow/Regina conversation. Mostly because, at that point, what do you say if you're Snow? You've forgiven, you've put it behind you, Regina needed a pep talk so she gave her one. Rehashing the past wouldn't have been helpful at this stage.

The only thing that amused me was Snow saying "I know you, Regina, and you're not upset about a feather." To which I responded, "I know her too and she's totally capable of being upset about a feather! She's committed genocide over less!"

Oh, that's right, the Evil Queen is a separate entity who can actually be split off. Wow, that still pisses me off.

Zelena's continued existence annoys the crap out of me. Why is she even there?

[Mitch]

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would be interesting if Vanilla!Regina was always painfully aware of the darkness that's been in her life. It would be new to her to have... *gasp* remorse. She wouldn't know what to do with it. I think we saw a little bit of that when she mentioned to Snow she was a bad stepmother. When she was angry to Zelena, it was like she felt bad about it, but she didn't know how to handle it. It would have been funny if Regina had been creepily nice to everyone and apologized for every little thing. But the writers don't really want to make her as different as she should be.

Yes,...it would be interesting to see Regina FINALLY deal with the remorse of killing all those people...(and I LIKE Regina but that is a ridiculous thing to forget and Parrilla would act the hell out of it,)  I also wish she had no magic..which would make sense, she wasn't really using magic until she became the EQ...plus it would be nice for Regina to remember she has a brain and can fight with that.

Are we sure that was Regina having the issue with Zelena in the house, and not the EQ setting it all up? The scene of her approaching the house was shot ominously (as a matter of fact they used that shot in the promos when talking about the EQ..) as she aggressively walked up to the house and how would the EQ know that Regina and Zelena had a fight...(unless she put Sydney back in the mirror and is spying on people that way....) Zelena went from being a big bad to acting like a pouty annoying high school girl. Your hot your powerful, you can pull off hats and you can roll your eyes with the best of them, move on! The scene did make me laugh, my nephew is living with us for a while and I give him that look every time I walk into his bedroom.

The rest of the episode was entertaining...though they always bite off more then they can chew...and I really could care less about the Aladin stuff.  How are is  Jekel and Hyde an untold story as is the Three Muskateers, etc? I like Hyde and wish he and EQ would have a kind of S/M thing going..(though the way the guy is playing it I am not so sure if it would be a woman he would be into...how interesting, Storybrooke gets its first omnisexual Big Bad...) its interesting to see a villain without magic that is happily unaffected anyone else's ..though really...what is so great about Storybrooke that everyone wants it?If they found out that Storybrooke is now somehowthe nexus of all the rest of GGI-villes then that might explain it but..

As usual Snow and Charming are useless and boring and have to be squeezed into scenes to give them something to do. I would have liked for Granny to have that scene with Regina..("Everytime you start whining I want to get my crossbow out!!!!") As usual Rumple and Belle are boring but I like that his son already knows he is an asshole.

One question. Is there magic now in the real world and if so why doesnt Rump leave like he wanted to do in the season ender?

[Rumsy4]

They brought the crystal dildo back and released the magic back in Storybrooke. So, there's no more magic outside except with people like the Dragon. 

[pezgirl7]

I was really annoyed when Hook and Charming were arresting Hyde, and Hyde said something to Emma about what was happening with her. Even with Emma urging him to tell her what he knows, it's like everyone else there was oblivious to the conversation. You would think that someone else would have been like, "What are you guys talking about? Emma, what is Hyde referring to? Is something wrong with you?". It's the sloppy, illogical scenes like that which are really starting to get on my nerves.

Edited September 29, 2016 by pezgirl7

[Curio]

28 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I was really annoyed when Hook and Charming were arresting Hyde, and Hyde said something to Emma about what was happening with her. Even with Emma urging him to tell her what he knows, it's like everyone else there was oblivious to the conversation. You would think that someone else would have been like, "What are you guys talking about? Emma, what is Hyde referring to? Is something wrong with you?". It's the sloppy, illogical scenes like that which are really starting to get on my nerves.

And it makes Emma's lying later in the episode so much worse. We can probably assume Hook heard what Hyde said and saw Emma's shaking hand in the woods, so it's not like he was out of line for asking what was going on.

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Curio said:

And it makes Emma's lying later in the episode so much worse. We can probably assume Hook heard what Hyde said and saw Emma's shaking hand in the woods, so it's not like he was out of line for asking what was going on.

There might have been a scene that was filmed of them talking about Hyde was arrested because someone snapped a picture of it, but it might have been removed.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Saying you were an awful stepmother isn't technically an apology, it's admitting the obvious.

And Regina apologizing for being a bad stepmother is like Lizzie Borden apologizing for being a bad daughter. Too little, too late. 

I'm not sure if Snow even knows that Regina killed her father, or if anyone put 2 and 2 together and figured out she killed Graham back in Season 1. But . . . we know. I don't get how we're just expected to forget about that. We're being asked to excuse and forgive at least two murders. That's unreasonable.

[tennisgurl]

You know, the more I think about it, the dumber this whole "Emma lies about her shakes" thing is. I just have no idea WHY she is doing this. I mean, I get what the writers are going for, with Archie chatting about how Emma has her walls down now, and how its making her feel vulnerable, but...thats the whole reason its so ridiculous! We have been dealing with Emma's issues since season one, and we have seen her learn and grow, and open up to her loved ones. Last season, we saw Emma go to Hell to save her True Love, and show that love to the world. How do you go from dragging your boyfriend from the gates of hell, to not telling him that your having issues? Why NOT!?! Tell your family, and let them help you fix it! They already followed you to Hell, its not like Emma has never accepted help before. This is just annoying. We all know where its going, we know that Emma is going to get caught in a lie, we know everyone is going to be upset that Emma kept this huge thing from everyone, why are they bothering?

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, the more I think about it, the dumber this whole "Emma lies about her shakes" thing is.

What makes this thing incredibly dumb is that there are 4 people standing right there when Hyde tells Emma about her tremors, when she follows him and asks him what he is talking about. 

I'm assuming that they are deaf at this point.

[Mathius]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure if Snow even knows that Regina killed her father

She does, she says so when Regina revealed to her that Cora killed Daniel in 1x21's flashback.

Regina: She ripped his heart out because of you. Because you couldn’t listen to me.

Snow: You took my father. Haven’t we both suffered enough? 

[InsertWordHere]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

What makes this thing incredibly dumb is that there are 4 people standing right there when Hyde tells Emma about her tremors, when she follows him and asks him what he is talking about. 

I'm assuming that they are deaf at this point.

This is like the time Charming and Snow were "whispering" about their big secret when Emma and Hook were standing right next to them.

[Camera One]

Jumping into portals created from wishing fountains may produce temporary hearing loss and permanent brain damage.  Please ask your doctor if symptoms persist.

[InsertWordHere]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Jumping into portals created from wishing fountains may produce temporary hearing loss and permanent brain damage.  

I think the brain damage is from all the memory spells.

[KAOS Agent]

The only positive I took away from the dumb Emma has a secret storyline is that she didn't push Hook away to protect him from being hurt when she dies. She went to hang out with him after the vision, so it's just lying at this point. 

Maybe only Emma can hear Hyde's vocal tones. Everyone else has lost the ability to hear the lower end of the register. That's what I'm going with. Did Hyde sound quite so strange in the finale?

[Arnella]

Quote

She does, she says so when Regina revealed to her that Cora killed Daniel in 1x21's flashback.

Regina: She ripped his heart out because of you. Because you couldn’t listen to me.

Snow: You took my father. Haven’t we both suffered enough? 

Even if she didn't, she knows countless other things about Regina like:

• She tried to murder her newborn infant.
• She tried to, and laughed when she thought she had, burned Snow to death at the stake.
• Drove Snow from her home and inheritance and relentlessly pursued and tried to have her killed for YEARS.

That is just a small sampling which would be bad enough but doesn't even touch the misery she wrought on the rest of the kingdom's innocent populace and beyond.  None of which, she has ever truly paid for.   I get why narcissist Regina doesn't care but WHY can Snow ignore it?  

Forgive - ok.

Walk away - ok.

Take her into your heart and family and trust her - not ok.

Put her well being above your own daughter - not #@#$%^ ok. 

[RadioGirl27]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, the more I think about it, the dumber this whole "Emma lies about her shakes" thing is. I just have no idea WHY she is doing this. I mean, I get what the writers are going for, with Archie chatting about how Emma has her walls down now, and how its making her feel vulnerable, but...thats the whole reason its so ridiculous! We have been dealing with Emma's issues since season one, and we have seen her learn and grow, and open up to her loved ones. Last season, we saw Emma go to Hell to save her True Love, and show that love to the world. How do you go from dragging your boyfriend from the gates of hell, to not telling him that your having issues? Why NOT!?! Tell your family, and let them help you fix it! They already followed you to Hell, its not like Emma has never accepted help before. This is just annoying. We all know where its going, we know that Emma is going to get caught in a lie, we know everyone is going to be upset that Emma kept this huge thing from everyone, why are they bothering?

It's contrived drama for the sake of contrived drama. It invalidates Emma's character developpment, and It shows how these writers are incapable of writting something new.

[Curio]

13 hours ago, Mathius said:

She does, she says so when Regina revealed to her that Cora killed Daniel in 1x21's flashback.

Regina: She ripped his heart out because of you. Because you couldn’t listen to me.
Snow: You took my father. Haven’t we both suffered enough? 

Responding in the All Seasons Thread. 

[Camera One]

Drove Snow from her home and inheritance and relentlessly pursued and tried to have her killed for YEARS.

And the culminating conversation in this episode had Snow basically THANKING Regina for doing this to her.  That is way beyond forgive and forget, and enters the realm of disturbing.

[Curio]

Just now, Camera One said:

And the culminating conversation in this episode had Snow basically THANKING Regina for doing this to her.  That is way beyond forgive and forget, and enters the realm of disturbing.

Welcome to the REC.

[Camera One]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Writers wrote that conversation first, with the concept that in this episode, Regina realizes that she herself was the one who gave hope to Snow White.  I would bet anything they are very proud of that dialogue.  And they're not alone.  The blog on this site even complimented the scenes between Snow and Regina.  The scary thing is that this conversation was *already* progressed because Regina admitted she was a bad stepmother and that she won't be able to make up for all the bad things she had done (in that impersonal voiceover).

Edited September 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

You know, this failure to let the characters actually react to what happens to them undermines just about everything in this show. There was a mention in the Hook thread about the writers saying Hook's totally fine now and will have no lingering effects from having been killed multiple times, being the Dark One, and coming back from the dead. Then there's Snow, acting like Regina did her a favor for killing her father and driving her out of her home because it taught her to have hope. This would be why Snow and Charming are "boring." They're ridiculously and unrealistically goody-goody for being willing to be friends with and being so concerned about a person who made their lives such hell.

Meanwhile, we have something as huge as the Underworld arc without it changing anything. They actually got concrete proof of life after death, what happens in the afterlife, and what really makes someone go to the Underworld vs. their version of heaven and hell. That's civilization-changing stuff (unless they knew this all along and it was part of their theology?). It's at the very least life-changing. How would you live your life if the afterlife wasn't just a matter of faith, but something you'd seen first-hand, where you knew for certain that having unfinished business would leave you in a kind of limbo and that you'd go straight to a better place if you resolved everything? Would you be lying to a loved one when you believed you were going to die if you knew that you'd be stuck in Underbrooke if you died with that business unfinished -- or is that Emma's strategy, since going on to the final place is final but there might be a way out of the Underworld, or at least Hook could easily visit her there since his blood can now open portals to the Underworld? Even if Hook isn't having PTSD from being killed and being the Dark One, wouldn't getting a second chance at life change the way he lives? He was ready to move on, came face-to-face with Zeus, and was sent back to life. Wouldn't that change a person's perspective?

Regina's the only one who's allowed to have lingering effects from anything, and even she isn't allowed to learn from her experiences. She gets to complain about what happened to her, for multiple episodes, but she doesn't get to connect what she's experiencing to what she's done.

[Mathius]

Seriously.  That whole end monologue from Regina about how she's feeling, all I could think was "Pity no-one else gets to have one of these."

[Randomosity]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

You know, this failure to let the characters actually react to what happens to them undermines just about everything in this show... Meanwhile, we have something as huge as the Underworld arc without it changing anything...

Speaking of, I feel like there should have been more followup on the existence of Liam 2.0. Was it just us (audience) that he was revealed to, or did other characters learn of him? I don't recall. Either way, I feel like there needed to be more done with that, rather than have this kid just fade into oblivion.

[Curio]

I finally got around to rewatching this episode, and it still felt very disjointed even though I knew exactly what was going to happen in each scene.

There were four main stories driving the plot, but none of them were closely related to each other and they weren't very cohesive as a whole. I don't know why they felt it was important to attempt to tackle all of these stories at once during the premiere since they're not doing their A/B split season structure this year; they have breathing room now to spread these plots out over multiple episodes. It's not a good sign going forward because I'm assuming these four plots are the main stories we're going to be popping in and out of as the season progresses, and I don't see the cohesiveness improving much either.  

So we've got: 1) Emma's shaky Savior status, 2) Regina/Evil Queen/Zelena sisterly issues, 3) Rumple and Belle marriage drama, and 4) The Land of Untold Stories refugees. These four plots are so unrelated to each other that they might as well be happening in different seasons. In fact, we've already covered several of these plots in previous seasons. It doesn't feel like I'm watching one exciting OUAT adventure right now, it feels like I'm watching four different mini shows that all happen to be scheduled during the same time block, but the editors cut the film in a way where you're forced to watch all four at the same time. The premiere was called "The Savior," but Emma's plot wasn't even the most significant portion of the episode. Yes, her shaky hand plot was introduced, but the main emotional beats came from Rumple and Regina's stories. I don't know why we couldn't have pushed the Regina/Zelena drama off to its own episode, and Rumple/Belle could have had their own episode as well. There's enough drama in each of those stories to carry an entire episode that they didn't need to be rushed into half of the premiere.

A couple of interesting things I noticed on rewatch—Emma and Rumple had several moments where they technically told truths to their True Loves, but they were purposely leaving out important details. I wonder if that's a habit Emma picked up by being a Dark One and having Rumple as her head mentor for so long. Rumple told Belle:

Quote

"This all happened a long time ago. We fell in love. We got married. And now, Belle, you are with child. The child was in danger, so you put yourself to sleep to keep it safe. Now that danger is gone, and I need you to wake up. This is the truth."

Even though it's technically the truth, it's lying by omission because Rumple is leaving out important details about Hades's deal and the part where Belle didn't even want Rumple to wake her. And then we have Emma and Hook's conversation:

Quote

"You were right. I just needed to get help. I went back to Archie and figured everything out." "And your hand?" "It was just stress." "You sure that's what it was? Stress?" "Promise."

Again, Emma is technically telling truthful statements, but it's lying by omission again. Is it true that Emma needed to get help? Yes. Did Emma go back to Archie? Technically, yes, she saw him earlier that day. A certain kind of stress is making her hand shake. But Emma actually does lie outright when she says she figured everything out, and of course there's the huge lie of omission about the vision. I don't know if the writers were purposely trying to parallel Emma and Rumple here, but it'll be interesting to see going forward if Hook and Belle are paralleled in future episodes because of it.

Another interesting thing I noticed was the prominence of the sword in Belle and Rumple's dance scene. It seemed like a very deliberate directing choice to have that sword featured in the foreground, but when you compare that sword to the sword that stabs Emma, they're completely different. I was hoping they'd be the same so we'd have something fun to speculate about, but the sword in the foreground seems like just a coincidence instead of intricate writing and planning. I'm surprised how simple the cross-guard is on the sword that kills Emma; it'll be easier to identify who's under the cloak based on that detail.

And then we have the touching-speech-played-over-a-montage-to-fool-the-audience-into-thinking-this-is-a-deep-and-emotional-show:

Quote

"My life was never just one story. It was many stories. To some, a villain. I hurt people in ways I can never make up for. To others, I'm a hero. They've seen my strength, my ability to do the hard things, even when I thought I couldn't."

My life was never just one story. It was many stories. This dialogue is played over a shot of Charming, Granny, Henry, Hook, and Emma handing out blankets to the Land of Untold Stories refugees. The obvious parallel here is that everyone in that scene—the Storybrooke gang and the refugees—all have many different stories that will be told throughout this season. However, I don't really get the idea of saying your own life was many stories because a story can have peaks and valleys and twists and turns, but it's still one story. To some, a villain. This line is played over a shot of Rumple. It's pretty obvious the writers want us to view Rumple as a villain right now and most likely a sign Rumple will stay fairly villainous this season. I hurt people in ways I can never make up for. This is played over a shot of Belle looking into the pawn shop. The parallel here is that Rumple has hurt Belle in ways he might never be able to make up for, and Regina (gasp!) is actually admitting she hurt people, including Belle and the person she's talking to. It's still not an actual apology, but it's a step forward. Because it's TS;TW, there's really no drama to this line from Regina's standpoint because we all know the writers will give her a happy ending no matter what at the end of the series. Rumple, on the other hand, is a bit more interesting because I genuinely don't know at this point if he'll be able to make up for the things he did. To others, I'm a hero. They've seen my strength, my ability to do the hard things, even when I thought I couldn't. This is said over a shot of Emma leaving Granny's and looking at her hand. This is telling the audience that Emma is a hero who was able to become the Savior even though she didn't always believe in herself, but it's also the writers beating it over our heads that Emma sees Regina as a hero even though Regina thought she wasn't strong enough. It's probably why they added in that reshot scene at the beginning where Regina doubted her magic. So get ready for a season where Emma cheerleads Regina to be a hero again.

And because it can't be said enough: Snow, Regina was the one who tried to kill you. You don't have to keep correcting yourself. We don't have scenes where Belle corrects herself and says, "When Killian...I mean Captain Hook...tried to kill me, it made me a stronger person," so why is Regina the exception?

Edited October 1, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

42 minutes ago, Curio said:

Another interesting thing I noticed was the prominence of the sword in Belle and Rumple's dance scene. It seemed like a very deliberate directing choice to have that sword featured in the foreground, but when you compare that sword to the sword that stabs Emma, they're completely different. I was hoping they'd be the same so we'd have something fun to speculate about, but it seems like just a coincident instead of intricate writing and planning. I'm surprised how simple the cross-guard is on the sword that kills Emma; it'll be easier to identify who's under the cloak based on that detail.

I thought the biggest hint was the way Emma's sword was poofed out of there, in Rumple's signature smoke color. 

I wanna say that Rumple has a two handed sword in his shop, but I'm not sure.

Also, that lance thing that's facing the sword looks like the ones the whalers are carrying. And I think the sword looks different because of the angle of the shot. I was wondering what Ned Stark's great sword was doing there for a second.

Edited October 1, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

I thought the biggest hint was the way Emma's sword was poofed out of there, in Rumple's signature smoke color. 

I don't know why, but I just don't see it being Rumple under the cloak. I think it'd be Jafar under the cloak before Rumple. Or maybe it's Jafar and Rumple teaming up, so Jafar is under the cloak and Rumple poofs away Emma's sword. But I think Regina having a dream Emma was going to kill her with a sword on Main Street in Season 1 and Emma having a dream that someone kills her with a sword on Main Street in Season 6 was done on purpose, especially since the writers can't shut up about how they're purposely reverting a lot things back to Season 1 this year.

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, Curio said:

I don't know why, but I just don't see it being Rumple under the cloak. I think it'd be Jafar under the cloak before Rumple. Or maybe it's Jafar and Rumple teaming up, so Jafar is under the cloak and Rumple poofs away Emma's sword. But I think Regina having a dream Emma was going to kill her with a sword on Main Street in Season 1 and Emma having a dream that someone kills her with a sword on Main Street in Season 6 was done on purpose, especially since the writers can't shut up about how they're purposely reverting a lot things back to Season 1 this year.

I think it might end up being combination of all 3 things? Like a bad guys team up? I just have a super difficult time believing that the EQ is Emma's villain. 

And about main street and the possible parallel, Regina's thing was a nightmare and Emma's thing is supposed to be a vision. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Emma's thing is supposed to be a vision. 

 

I don't know what to think about Emma's vision. Is it real? Is it fake? The red snake eyes point towards something fishy with Jafar, so maybe the oracle is in cahoots with Jafar or Jafar was pretending to be the oracle. It would be frustrating if the writers showed the vision only for them to call it fake later, but they did a similar cop out with Robin's death. Henry gave a whole speech to Regina about how bad guys shouldn't be trusted and that they lie, so should we assume the vision is a lie?

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, Curio said:

The red snake eyes point towards something fishy with Jafar, so maybe the oracle is in cahoots with Jafar or Jafar was pretending to be the oracle.

I don't know about Oracle, but her staff wasn't a snake, it was a bird.

Maybe she was working for Jafar, but girlfriend was definitely spent years in the Land of Untold Stories. Her cheek is not fully healed from when she was thrown against the wall by him.

As far as characters go, I'm hoping we find out more about her. Plus the actress seems pretty capable for a 15 year old. I thought she held her own with JMo.

Edited October 1, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

19 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I don't know about Oracle, but her staff wasn't a snake, it was a bird.

Ah, that makes more sense. But I guess I was more pointing out the similarity between the glowing red eyes. Jafar's staff had red glowing eyes before it did magic and so did the oracle's. So either there's a connection between them, or that's just how magic works in Agrabah.

[Camera One]

In the S5 finale, Regina and Zelena were sitting cozy in a booth claiming others don't understand what they've been through.  Now, Regina minus The Evil Queen inside of her, blames Zelena for Robin's death?

Why did Charming say "What the hell is that?" and we needed Jekyll to say it was a dirigible from The Land of Untold Stories, when Charming actually saw them in the Land of Untold Stories himself?

The most meaningless line award goes to the Oracle: "The future's always in motion, always changing, but also inevitable."