All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[dustylil]

Because he was a glutton for punishment?

After all, this is the same man who spoke well of Anna after she kept his daughter from him for twelve years.

[Spartan Girl]

Too bad Anna was such a ****, because if she wasn't it might have been amusing for Luke to move on with his life with her and parade her around the town so that Lorelei would have a dose of her own medicine.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[Sara2009]

I don't think Lorelai paraded Christopher around town. There was even an episode about how she wasn't doing that.

[dustylil]

Much as I disliked Christopher and thought the marriage was unlikely to succeed, I don't see any reason why Lorelai shouldn't publicly spend time in her hometown with her husband simply because they might run into Luke. It is not as if they would be coming into the diner and sharing an ice cream soda. They would simply be going about their lives in Stars Hollow.

 

Actually, I have thought of a reason why Luke came to the hospital when Richard had his second heart attack . Lorelai had done much the same thing for him  some months earlier when April had appendicitis.

Edited September 4, 2015 by dustylil

[Spartan Girl]

I didn't mean that it was unreasonable for Lorelei to be in public with Christopher. She wasn't intending to hurt Luke on purpose, that was just another example of her cluelessness and general insensitivity. I'm just saying it would have been nice to see Lorelei witness Luke move on with his life with someone else, instead of just focusing on him pining for her and being miserable. Honestly, think ASD wrote it purposely that way so that that whole story arc would be one big punishment to Luke.

And I'd like to point out that Luke called Lorelei and asked her to help take April to the hospital. Lorelei did no such thing when Richard was in the hospital; he just showed up when he heard it through the grapevine.

It was nice that he did it, but like I said before, I wouldn't have blamed him if he didn't, because he didn't owe them anything.

[Kohola3]

It was nice that he did it, but like I said before, I wouldn't have blamed him if he didn't, because he didn't owe them anything.

 

Absolutely.  And any other man would have ignored it.  But "I just like to see you happy" Luke would do just about anything for her.  He just follows his heart.

[dustylil]

I wouldn't have faulted him if he hadn't gone to the hospital either. But she didn't owe him anything either and she kindly went to be with him during April's illness. It wasn't one-sided. Both Luke and Lorelai behaved like compassionate, mature adults in those situations. Unusually so - for the pair of them ;)

Honestly, think ASD wrote it purposely that way so that that whole story arc would be one big punishment to Luke.

 

 

The showrunners had changed by the seventh season. If I recall correctly. Daniel Rosenthal was in charge. Amy Sherman Palladino and Daniel Palladino no longer had any involvement. If anyone was punishing Luke it wasn't the people who created him.

Edited September 5, 2015 by dustylil

[Spartan Girl]

Yes, let's put the blame for the whole fiasco where it belongs: the writers.

[Guest]

I've always interpreted Luke's arrival at the hospital as a sign he was still in love with her, even if he didn't recognize it at that point.

[Kohola3]

Yes, let's put the blame for the whole fiasco where it belongs: the writers.

 

Who obviously didn't think twice about punishing the loyal viewers.  Didn't they watch any of the preceding episode before they decided to completely change the characters?  IT was just painful.

[Guest]

Last night, I made the mistake of watching "But I'm a Gilmore."  I always forget how painful that episode is! It makes the preceding episode "To Live and Let Diorama" seem like a masterpiece!

 

Let's start with Rory.  The way she acted at the Huntzberger's house was ridiculous. Her reaction in the car to Logan was fine to establish that this was quite the house.  Her acting once inside like she had never seen indoor plumbing before was ridiculous.  I think it was supposed to come across as she's so innocent, but instead it came across like she's such an idiot.  Also, her defense of how Logan's family treated her was "Don't they know who I am?"  Early season Rory would have been more "That's not how you treat people" and less "that's not how you treat me."  

 

Then there was the subplot with Sookie and Luke.  Sookie was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, she's an owner in the inn and has a right to how things are done. BUT when you are expecting someone to do you a huge favor, if you don't treat them right, you can't expect the favor.  Plus the fact that she had made zero plans for her maternity leave when she was that far along was inexcusable.  And the fact that she has a full kitchen staff but none of them, even her sous chef, do anything more than salad is just too unbelievable. 

 

And last, but I hated the way Paris' nanny was portrayed.  It just seemed to be very much a stereotype.

[Taryn74]

Let's start with Rory.  The way she acted at the Huntzberger's house was ridiculous. Her reaction in the car to Logan was fine to establish that this was quite the house.  Her acting once inside like she had never seen indoor plumbing before was ridiculous.

 

Seriously just choked on my lunch.

 

Also, her defense of how Logan's family treated her was "Don't they know who I am?"  Early season Rory would have been more "That's not how you treat people" and less "that's not how you treat me."

 

I see what you're saying, but I feel Rory's reaction was appropriate based on Shira and Grandpa H. attacking her supposed "low breeding" when, as far as she's ever seen or been told, the Gilmores and Huntzbergers are on equal terms socially.  (Whether or not they ARE is a different matter.)  I saw her reaction as more confusion ("Don't they know I'm a Gilmore?") than arrogance ("How dare they treat a Gilmore that way!").

[solotrek]

On the plus side, at least the Huntzbergers were just bitching about Rory's social standing. Richard basically called Dean a numbnut with no ambitions who didn't deserve to (and didn't have the IQ) to hold Rory's toilet paper.

[dustylil]

I could understand Rory's initial confusion at the Huntzberger home that evening. But really - doesn't everyone have a Velasquez or two hanging in their hallway?

However, after some reflection Rory should certainly have been  able to discern the great difference in the wealth and  standing of the two families. After all, she herself had done some research on Mitchum  and his background. The Gilmores (at least in Trix's day) may have been big fish in the smallish pond that was Connecticut. The Huntzbergers, on the other hand, were and continued to be important and influential throughout the US and beyond. As well, the difference in their respective financial status was demonstrated on several occasions. By any standard, Logan's family was far higher up the food chain than Rory's. Once again, I was forced  to question Rory's mental acuity ;)

[txhorns79]

I see what you're saying, but I feel Rory's reaction was appropriate based on Shira and Grandpa H. attacking her supposed "low breeding" when, as far as she's ever seen or been told, the Gilmores and Huntzbergers are on equal terms socially.  (Whether or not they ARE is a different matter.)  I saw her reaction as more confusion ("Don't they know I'm a Gilmore?") than arrogance ("How dare they treat a Gilmore that way!").

 

I think people sometimes confuse wealth with standing.  The Huntzbegers clearly were wealthier than the Gilmores, but they may still be on the same level socially.  For example, a Rockefeller of modest means would still be a Rockefeller, and likely treated as socially better than someone in the same financial position without the famous last name. 

[JayInChicago]

Wasn't Mitchum supposed to be akin to Rupert Murdoch?

I always took Logan to be a C list new money celebrity while Rory's fimally was just "well bred" and somewhat old money.

"Fimally". I'm keeping that. I clearly have a state school education ;)

[dustylil]

I thought the Huntzbergers were based on the Ochs-Sulzberger family, the folks who have owned The New York Times (and its related media empire) since the 1890s.

[Aloeonatable]

 

I thought the Huntzbergers were based on the Ochs-Sulzberger family, the folks who have owned The New York Times (and its related media empire) since the 1890s.

 

Supposedly ASP wrote that they were, but I've never read the article or quote. 

[desertflower]

I'm in season 6 right now. I watched the show during its original run but missed a big chunk of 6 so I'm seeing some of these eps for the first time. Can I just say, Lorelai and Rory's behavior during Sookie's kids' baptism? GAH!! Way beyond, even for them. Bad enough to talk during the ceremony. Worse to ask the reverend to hold on for a second while they go talk. But TAKING THE BABIES out the door with them?? I could barely concentrate on their dialogue because I was so dumbfounded by their behavior. I want to know what the folks inside were saying while the girls were outside arguing. There's a great scene in the show Community when Shirley goes into labor in class, and one of the background characters says, "Man, we ALMOST had a day that wasn't all about them!" I imagine Sookie and Jackson were having some similar thoughts!!

[Taryn74]

Oh, yes.  I think the rest of the episode is pretty good, from what I remember, but all I can think about when I think of it is that horrible scene and it ruins all of it.

[solotrek]

Supposedly ASP wrote that they were, but I've never read the article or quote. 

“Oh, absolutely,” the 2000–'07 show’s creator Amy Sherman-Palladino told Vulture during an interview this morning. “It wasn’t even veiled — the word ‘berger’ is in there. We weren't trying to be clever. We just figured that was the kind of family [Logan] would be part of.”

[candall]

[First timer here.]  I finally came around to liking Lorelei after she had some setbacks.  I could feel her pain at the estrangement with Rory and she seemed more human, less 24k universal nucleus.

 

But Rory's back and I just watched Lorelei pout until she was included in Rory's private "pinky swear" routine with Lane.  Uh-oh, flashback.  I think my very first questionable impression came from an early episode in Season One when Lorelei wedged herself between Rory and Lane while they were curled up on the couch giggling together.

 

She also refused, for the umpteenth time, to vacate a table at Luke's even though people were lined up and waiting to be seated, but I'm okay with that.  Those Stars Hollow folk have more of a masochism thing going on than just adoring the person who keeps them cooling their heels and constantly interrupts their meetings/ceremonies/movies.  I'm looking at you, Taylor Doose!

Edited September 22, 2015 by candall

[junienmomo]

Remind me, why the hell did Luke feel obligated to help out at the hospital when Richard had a heart attack again? I get that he was a good guy, but after the way Lorelei AND her parents treated him, he didn't owe them anything.

 

Spartan Girl,

Season 7, regardless of how much I hate it and believe it did L/L many great injustices, had the clearest character arc for Luke that I saw for anyone during the series. 

 

The writers crushed him at the beginning and slowly reinvented him from the originally unrequited love guy with a temper to the "I just like to see you happy" guy. Reaching the agape (a love that needs no return) love stage a HUGE change to achieve for any person, and for Luke's character it was even bigger.

 

The guy who was willing to drive three hours to punch Christopher gradually became the guy who lost everything over the course of the first few episodes. The hospital scene comes at a time after he and Lorelai had some awkward but still positive conversations, which was a critical move between his bitterness and his acceptance of his life as is.

 

I see the few moments in Kayak, when Luke overheard Liz and TJ talking about how lonely Luke was, as the final transition for him, in which I believe he decided that he could be the "like to see you happy" guy. He even smiles more as the season progresses, one of the things that makes me believe the arc was deliberate.

 

So, in short, he'd become the kind of guy who'd go without bitterness to visit a friend who needed support.

[candall]

Well, there you go.  Today's episode was Lorelei finding out about April.  She was wonderful!  Supportive and understanding and protective, even when Luke postpones the wedding (which struck me as preposterous.)

 

The chips-are-down Lorelei is righteous!  Huge fan.

[junienmomo]

Well, there you go.  Today's episode was Lorelei finding out about April.  She was wonderful!  Supportive and understanding and protective, even when Luke postpones the wedding (which struck me as preposterous.)

 

The chips-are-down Lorelei is righteous!  Huge fan.

 

That scene didn't come over for me the way it did for you. Lorelai was already in her pod-Lorelai avoidance mode. Luke didn't postpone the wedding, she did, with (I might be imagining emotions where they weren't yet) the feeling that he didn't want to marry her. He even asked if she was OK with a postponement. Lorelai was needlessly sacrificing herself.

 

With Sookie's pushy BFOTB tactics, Lorelai could instead have simply offered to handle the rest of the arrangements and all Luke would have had to do was show up on the wedding day. How would that have interfered with his working through what would have quickly become a custody case? 

 

As good as most of these characters were at compartmentalizing, you'd think that one of them would eventually use compartmentalizing to their benefit (e.g. I handle wedding, you handle April. We trust each other remember?). 

Edited September 23, 2015 by junienmomo

[Smad]

Spartan Girl,

Season 7, regardless of how much I hate it and believe it did L/L many great injustices, had the clearest character arc for Luke that I saw for anyone during the series. 

 

The writers crushed him at the beginning and slowly reinvented him from the originally unrequited love guy with a temper to the "I just like to see you happy" guy. Reaching the agape (a love that needs no return) love stage a HUGE change to achieve for any person, and for Luke's character it was even bigger.

I certainly agree that his character development in S7 was the clearest of all the characters and certainly the best they did. Lorelai had non whatsoever, hell Christopher had more development than her.

 

But Luke's development that Season had nothing to do with Lorelai and everything to do with April. Luke changed as a person and he did that so he could be a good father. And that alone assures me that those changes are going to stick. His temper didn't come up much (except with Taylor but who can blame him), he opened himself up to the people around him. When you think about it he actually had a bigger circle of friends and family than outgoing Lorelai. Luke had April, Liz, TJ, Doula, Lane and Zack and so forth. Not bad for a loner. Lorelai had Chris. And he learned that you can't always take things slow, or process one thing at a time only because there's always more than one thing going on in your life and it keeps changing.

 

And what I really loved was that there was no pining. He mourned the relationship early on in the Season and it ended when he watched that movie sitting next to April's hospital bed.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Smad

[junienmomo]

Love your perspective, Smad. I agree, it had nothing to do with Lorelai, it was about Luke's growth, although he did consciously have to give up the notion of her before he reached his end of series state. The love was back after karaoke, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten ticked off when Lorelai waffled.

Makes me wonder if he would treat Lorelai differently by accepting less of her BS when they got together again post-series. She certainly still had it.

[Spartan Girl]

Oh "Bridesmaids Revisited"...you know Logan, if you were too lazy to actually confirm that you and Rory were indeed broken up before boinking your sister's bridesmaids, then you WERE cheating.

But I did love the scene where Rory shows up at Paris' apartment.

[Guest]

Oh "Bridesmaids Revisited"...you know Logan, if you were too lazy to actually confirm that you and Rory were indeed broken up before boinking your sister's bridesmaids, then you WERE cheating.

But I did love the scene where Rory shows up at Paris' apartment.

 

I haven't watched Season 6 enough times to be sure of this, but wasn't she refusing to talk to him at all?  For an extended period of time?  I don't know how he could have confirmed with her ignoring him completely.

 

Not that that makes it okay, but when you freeze your partner out of all communication, it makes it difficult to be on the same page.

[Spartan Girl]

Logan wasn't making any special effort to talk to her either. In fact, Rory didn't even know they were broken up until Logan's sister told her that Logan said they broke up.

[solotrek]

Logan wasn't making any special effort to talk to her either. In fact, Rory didn't even know they were broken up until Logan's sister told her that Logan said they broke up.

Maybe ASP was just a big fan of Friends. "We were on a break!" Ugh shut up Ross.

 

Plus Logan was basically operating the same way Lorelai would. Unilateral relationship decisions. How she ended her engagement to Max, moving from Jason to Luke, moving from Luke to Christopher.

[Spartan Girl]

That's exactly what I was thinking!

[Gilmorefan]

Superficial topic time! Who do you think was the best looking guy on Gilmore Girls?

[LeafontheWind]

Superficial topic time! Who do you think was the best looking guy on Gilmore Girls?

JESS! Followed immediately by Christopher.

[Gilmorefan]

JESS! Followed immediately by Christopher.

Totally agree! They're the only two I find attractive. Luke was only okay, and so was Logan.

[LeafontheWind]

There were times I found Luke attractive, but they were usually the brief moments when he was happy or being snarky in a fun way. Logan was too smirky for my taste. When he gave a genuine smile, I found him much more appealing.

[amensisterfriend]

Superficial topic time! Who do you think was the best looking guy on Gilmore Girls?

 

Wait, we're being shamelessly superficial now? You are SO my people ;)

 

So I'm not normally all that picky, but none of the GG guys fully do it for me. That said, I agree with the above posters that David Sutcliffe/Christopher is the most attractive, especially when he radiates an eager, life loving happiness that the vast majority of GG males lack! I also agree that MV takes the silver medal here, though it depends pretty heavily on his hair :) I'm not generally into the leather-clad 'punk' look, but Milo's got those soulful eyes, sexy grin and fantastic chemistry with AB/Rory. 

 

No one else really ranks for me, unless maybe we count Tristan in certain scenes...and,sadly, I say this as someone who's more than old enough to be his mother :) MC/Logan is too pasty and smirky for my taste, and I'm not a fan of his gelled boy band-ish hair. I can actually see why many would name JP/Dean as the most attractive, but he just doesn't do it for me, especially since he's so often pouting and scowling. Max just has a slick look that I dislike, and his hair bugs me more than it should. Zach is...just so not my type. AT ALL! And Luke/SP is not attractive to me at all, especially post S1. I know many love his body, but to me he's just kind of bulky/stocky/borderline chunky. The receding hair is strange looking and they never knew quite what to do with it. I actually think they were wise to give him a baseball cap addiction given his hair problems. And, as with Dean, it doesn't help his case for me that he's so often snarling, scowling and perpetually annoyed at the world despite not having much reason to be. I don't really have a specific 'type', but one commonality among the guys I tend to find most attractive in fiction and real life is passion, enthusiasm and the ability to derive joy from life.  

[Gilmorefan]

Totally agree with Jess being attractive depending on his hair. I was not a fan of his long haired season four look. I forgot about Tristan! He was cute too, but that could be influenced by the fact that I loved him in A Cinderella Story

[takalotti]

Marty and Dave, but I usually go for nerdy types rather than more suave or macho types.

[FozzyBear]

I must not have been clear because that's what I was trying to say.

Before she saw that it was "getting too serious" (meaning she caught Lorelai looking at wedding dresses quite sentimentally) with Luke, I'd imagine Emily doesn't take Lorelai's relationships too seriously because they usually implode. So she doesn't have to try too hard to mess up a relationship she doesn't approve of (her passive aggressive digs at Luke at FND don't really count because to her she wasn't risking losing Lorelai since she could always feign innocence. "What do you mean? I was paying him a compliment.").

Now I'm thinking more about the difference between Richard's actions regarding Jason being so unforgivable and Emily's actions regarding Luke being acceptable. (This is all me trying to think as Emily, so I'm not saying the following makes sense to a rational person.)

1) Richard's actions didn't actually threaten a breakup between Lorelai and Jason. Yes, that's what happened, but at the moment that Emily snapped, it didn't really seem like the concern was that the lawsuit would cause a break up and then Lorelai would be mad. It seemed more like Emily was worried Lorelai would feel she had to pick a side and would choose Jason over family.

Meanwhile, when Emily meddled she was orchestrating a breakup. If successful, there would be no choosing a man over family because the man would be out of the picture. Sure, Lorelai would be sad or mad (or smad), but wouldn't feel she had to disown her family to be with her man like in the case with Jason.

2) Richard's actions were transparent. If those actions affected Lorelai, she would know the root cause.

Emily tried to be sneaky. If Chris successfully derailed Lorelai and Luke, no one would have to know Emily was behind it. So Emily's actions would affect Lorelai, but ideally she'd never know the root cause. So that makes it "okay" because if she never finds out, then there's no risk to the family relationship.

Really a low moment for Emily and I'm normally kind of on her side. But it was just cruel.

On another note, I am always so surprised how easily Rory forgave Chris for the whole debacle. It was exactly what she was afraid would happen when she told Chris to stay away from Lor and Luke. Plus no matter what Emily did, Chris's behavior was appalling. I'm always surprised that neither Lor or Rory were more upset with him. Sure Lor wasn't planning to see him again, but she wasn't really mad at him and never, ever confronted him about it. Bottom line was that if Chris hadn't acted like such an asshole Emily's plan never would have amounted to anything more then the Yale Boy party she threw Rory.

[txhorns79]

1) Richard's actions didn't actually threaten a breakup between Lorelai and Jason. Yes, that's what happened, but at the moment that Emily snapped, it didn't really seem like the concern was that the lawsuit would cause a break up and then Lorelai would be mad. It seemed more like Emily was worried Lorelai would feel she had to pick a side and would choose Jason over family.

 

I think the difference is that Richard's actions had a secondary effect on Lorelai, but they were not about Lorelai.  They were about saving himself from financial ruin, along with his business.  Emily's actions were entirely about Lorelai, so it was deeply personal for both of them and led to the falling out. 

[Taryn74]

Attractive guys:

 

I find Jared P. attractive now that he's grown into a fine young man, but teenage Dean did nothing for me.  Jess was usually attractive.  Tristan was ok, a little too pretty boy for my tastes though.  Same goes for Logan.

 

I usually found Chris and Luke both attractive, for different reasons.

 

Max made me want to gag.  I think it was his hair + smarmy personality.

 

Jason was ok, once he grew the beard in.  He has a very weak chin.

 

Marty was attractive enough.

 

Who else?  I found early seasons Jackson attractive.  Does Michel count?  *g*  He was attractive in a French/GQ sort of way.  Gil was attractive in that 80s rock kind of way.  (It was, after all, Sebastian Freaking Bach.)  Zach and Brian were both attractive in their own way.

[Kohola3]

Maury.  Dug the chapeau.

[takalotti]

I think the difference is that Richard's actions had a secondary effect on Lorelai, but they were not about Lorelai.  They were about saving himself from financial ruin, along with his business.  Emily's actions were entirely about Lorelai, so it was deeply personal for both of them and led to the falling out.

I agree with this difference, but that means Emily's actions still make no sense to me (other than character assassinating bad writing).

If Richard's actions, which only had a secondary effect on Lorelai, were so awful that Emily chose to separate from him for even remotely/indirectly risking a falling out with Lorelai, how were her later actions (scheming with Chris), which had a primary and direct effect on Lorelai, acceptable and not awful even in her book? Doesn't that mean she had to fully divorce herself, then?

[Guest]

Superficial:

Christopher

Logan

Dean

Marty

Tristan

Dave

Colin

Finn

Luke

Zack

Digger

Jess

Michel

Jackson

Gil

Brian

Richard

TJ

Kirk

[JayInChicago]

Andrew had a certain something...

[Guest]

Oh, and I forgot Taylor! I thought I had gotten all of the main / recurring men.  I think Taylor would probably go at the bottom. Because Taylor.

[FozzyBear]

Oh god, my rewatch just hit the Anna/April episodes. They're just the worst. It's a dumb plot twist to begin with that feels like it only existed to solve 2 issues I don't think were actually problems. 1. Replace Rory now that she's no longer a teenager.2. Break up Luke and Lor. It's so awkward, Anna and April are way too close to Lor and Rory in personality, and they never did anything interesting with them. I think everyone was grateful when they got shipped off to Mandyville/Arizona and the pain could end. Plus, sorry but Sherlynn Finn is not good in the role. She may be a decent actress (I only vaguely remember her from Twin Peaks so I can't say), but she is awful. She just can't handle ASP's style and comes across really flat and weird which doesn't help the fact that she's written as kind of crazy so it all adds up to a really bad, bad idea.

Edited October 6, 2015 by FozzyBear

[solotrek]

Superficial:

Christopher

Logan

Dean

Marty

Tristan

Dave

Colin

Finn

Luke

Zack

Digger

Jess

Michel

Jackson

Gil

Brian

Richard

TJ

Kirk

What about Jaime and Asher Flemming?

[Guest]

What about Jaime and Asher Flemming?

Jamie would probably go between Colin and Finn and the smarmy Asher Flemming can go right between Kirk and Richard.

 

I also forgot Ceaser. He probably goes between Brian and Gil.