S02.E13: Memory of Tomorrow

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

Cole and Railly have finally found peace living in the past. When a mysterious woman with apocalyptic visions of the future tells Cole it's not over, he must do the unthinkable to save the world... and the woman he loves.

Promo:

[bethy]

I am simultaneously excited and terrified about tonight's episode.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'm experiencing multiple feelings myself.  I'm excited, anxious and sad.  (Sad because we won't see a new 12M ep for about 9-ish months after tonight)

[Notwisconsin]

They might have decided to end the whole thing here. who knows?

[snarktini]

For #$%@!'s sake, why couldn't Cole even consider heeding multiple warnings about staying away from Titan? She told him he had to not go to break the cycle. The doggedness and loyalty is certainly a huge part of his charm, but sheesh. Then again, without it the story would be finished. (We're getting another season, yes?) So let's all lift a glass to Cole's obstinance. Cheers!

Good on all of you who called their kid being the Witness. Though...how does the baby exist in a reset timeline? I guess we'll find out.

It was a good season ender.

Edited July 19, 2016 by snarktini

[wanderingstar]

This was a lot to process.

Midway through the episode, when it looked like Cassie and Cole had accomplished their mission, I was wondering how we were going to be left hanging for next season. Splintering Cassie into the next century and sending Jennifer back to WWI did the trick. And very creepy ending with those masked people chanting "Mother" at Cassie. 

Jennifer saying "Screw you, I'll do it myself" was excellent. 

I thought for a minute we were going to learn that Sam is the Witness. But now I want to know why Sam was splintered to whereever he ended up.

And how did Cassie remember her time with Cole in the House of Cedar and Pine?

I have so many questions, chiefly, what am I going to do with my Mondays now?

[Chaos Theory]

Well this goes to prove my theory the children are evil. 

How many "Grand Speeches" did Jennifer steal from.  I got Braveheart and Independence day and she even capped it off with  Bill & Ted but I might have missed a few.  Still awesome.  

I thought the scenes in the Cabin if safeness was sweet and when Cole wrote those words "This was Home"  and left Cassie there I had the distinct feeling that Cassie remembered and grew bitter or something Timey thing like that and became the Witness.  I am still not sure how I feel about their kid being the Witness.  Its a bit obvious and romancy but then this has always veered towards science fiction/romance.  So whatever. 

Jones with a gun is all kinds of win for me.  I loved her story of defending the compound.  Plus the dog.  

So is this the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?  

[Bort]

What the fuck just happened? So Cole undid the paradox but Cassie is still pregnant? Because she remembers it? That sex must have been real good to transcend a timeline. 

I loved badass Jones blowing scavengers away with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth. 

And we still don't know who Madeline Stowe played, though she was pretty clearly a primary. I loved that line she did, something like, "I'm insane and you're my insanity," it was the hand motion that sold it for me. She was great. 

Also, of course Jennifer tries to rally the Daughters with the Braveheart speech. Eegads. She dropped another ghostbusters reference too, "we came, we saw, we kicked its ass!"

[MarkZ]

Madeline Stowe! Well done!

So Cole Kitty-Pryde's back to his previous consciousness and stops the paradox. But this begs the question: why didn't they just do that every other time they couldn't stop a paradox, with the machine? Go back a year (or a day for that matter)?

[merylinkid]

I love how Jones got all bad ass to keep her daughter from getting killed in Titan by all the Witnessi.  For a daughter she actually knew and raised.   Oh but her ex-husband is a baddy.

Cassie looked rightfully freaked out at the chanting.   

So the answer is in the future, not the past?   Makes sense since going to the past never fixed anything.

[SunShines]

4 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

How many "Grand Speeches" did Jennifer steal from.  I got Braveheart and Independence day and she even capped it off with  Bill & Ted but I might have missed a few.  Still awesome.  

She started off with Aragorn's speech at the gates of Mordor from Return of the King. Followed by Braveheart, Independence Day and lastly, Bill and Ted

The only thing that bothered me was Cole not telling Cassie about the red forest and drinking the tea. Come on! It did not make sense to me why he would not tell her what was going on.

[bethy]

I'm guessing that there is something about being conceived by "two time travellers out of time" that made the baby able to move through time? Both Cassie and Cole have been given that shot that lets time move around them, right? Maybe that had an impact on the child?

Jennifer took something from one of the Lord of the Ring speeches, too, I think. 

I also loved Jennifer's "Screw you, I'll do it myself." She tried so hard. Plus, her ending up in the trenches in France in 1917 was strangely wonderful. 

I'm really hoping that Deacon survived all that stabbing. He survived being beat up by a bunch of guys before, so....

What has been said about "Mother"? Both Olivia and the Pallid Man have referenced her right when they were both with the 12 Monkeys? Like the Mother was helping them. Or at least that was my assumption. So what does that mean - potentially - about Cassie's state of mind.

The show returns in 2017. That's early 2017, isn't it? Like Jan. 1?

[snarktini]

Madeline Stowe said: "Death can be undone, James. Love cannot." That's probably the key to Cassie remembering and still being pregnant, somehow. Her timelines merged or something. (Reminds me of Fringe, where the Power of Love overcomes timelines. Blech.)

[SunShines]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

I'm guessing that there is something about being conceived by "two time travellers out of time" that made the baby able to move through time? Both Cassie and Cole have been given that shot that lets time move around them, right? Maybe that had an impact on the child?

I would guess it is because both Cassie and Cole drank the tea made from the red forest.

[Bort]

1 minute ago, SunShines said:

I would guess it is because both Cassie and Cole drank the tea made from the red forest.

That, or them just being juiced up as time travelers. Either explanation actually works for me as the reason Cassie would still be pregnant even after Cole undoing it. 

[bethy]

I appreciated that Cole was willing to sacrifice his family - Cassie and the baby - to save the world. Of course, if he hadn't the red forest would have consumed them anyway, but I like that it didn't become this huge "Will he or won't he?" thing where he becomes a hypocrite for having challenged Ramse on his willingness to sacrifice the world to save his son. 

[MarkZ]

Just now, SunShines said:

I would guess it is because both Cassie and Cole drank the tea made from the red forest.

But Cole didn't drink it until after the baby was conceived. I think it's the shots.

Cassie can remember because of the shots, too. Same reason Jones remembers dying in the storm and then she's back.

So now we know there's dozens (if not hundreds) of cultists in the future. So, time didn't stop before then. Doesn't that mean Cole et al. win eventually, in this timeline? Garr! He really should've listened to Madeline Stowe and quit while he was ahead!

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, bethy said:

I appreciated that Cole was willing to sacrifice his family - Cassie and the baby - to save the world. Of course, if he hadn't the red forest would have consumed them anyway, but I like that it didn't become this huge "Will he or won't he?" thing where he becomes a hypocrite for having challenged Ramse on his willingness to sacrifice the world to save his son. 

I really do like that. Cole had the woman he loved, he had a child on the way, but he didn't hesitate. He went with saving the world. 

[Chaos Theory]

That's the thing.  This has always been a bit of a love story,  Cassie dies in every timeline.  Cole found a place where they could at least in theory live a life together.  Have everything they both want.  But Cole is who he is and when Time catches up with him he does the right thing and sacrifices his happiness.    The story has always been about Cassie and Cole.  Cole and Cassie.  A doomed love story.   But maybe now its not so doomed.  Or maybe it is more doomed then we ever feared.  

[Cardie]

I thought the reset, even if inevitable, was a pretty cheap shot. Cole got a do-over thanks to the tea and the only reason that he and Cassie couldn't succeed the first time was because they needed the timeout to conceive the Witness. So, apparently, the Witness has always been born in the future, presumably brainwashed as he is raised to be the Army of the Twelve's messiah, then sent back when he's an adult to bring about all his Witnessy bad things.  Excellent temporal paradox. Of course, Cole will thwart this and raising the kid right will probably prevent the end of the world. someone upthread said that it's always saving people, not killing them, that the show validates, and they are right.

Interesting that Olivia is now leading a group of apostate 12 Monkey guerrillas and has Sam under her wing.

[kat165]

Jennifer was excellent throughout. Her appearance alone can make an ep for me. Her speeches were all kinds of awesome. That Braveheart speech was the best, along with "Be excellent to each other." I adore her.

Cole IS pretty hot. I bet sex with him just might transcend time. :) I volunteer to test this theory anytime, Aaron.

Jones shooting w/ the butt hanging from her mouth was perfect, as you said kariyaki. This ep had some really awesome stuff which made the whole baby thing easier to ignore. :) I was so happy to see her back. She's one of the reasons I watch. That dog, great addition!

Chaos, I totally agree! "Children are evil." A baby never makes me go "aw," but "ah, fuck."

I also liked Cole and Ramse when they greeted each other at Titan. That's my favorite romance in
the show.

I also liked Titan being its own time machine.

We don't know yet that Cassie is still pregnant, do we? I know Pallid Man acknowleged the child at the
end & she remembered being pregnant but I don't know that she is. God, I hope not.

hehe, Deacon to Jennifer "I'm sorry I shot you."

SunShines, thanks for itemizing the speeches. I only recognized the Braveheart one and, of course, Bill
& Ted.

Someone remind me, is Pallid Man Olivia's brother?

I was freaked out at the end with all those Witnesses or whatever they are, beakfaces, chanting "Mother."
If the show wasn't renewed this would have been a creepy place to end. Very horror movie like. Like a hand
coming out of a grave.

As much as I don't like the love transcends time trope this show is doing it better than Haven ever did.

Mark, excellent point about them remembering because of the shots.

I kept wondering if Stowe is Cole's mother. We never really got any enlightment on her although Cole's dad
dropped lots of hints they could have followed up on.

Since next season is only 10 eps does this mean that next season will probably be the last? Like they were
given 10 eps to finish up?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

-  So Cole must be packing some titanium-strength 'swimmers' if undoing a timeline still leaves a woman pregnant afterwards, AND leaves her with most of her memories of said undone time.  Although, a momentary timeout to theorize here... Cole only 'traveled' by the chronesthesia power of the red tea, not an actual machine, so in essence while he did change things to undo the Red Forest (for now), the other timeline still sort of exists because technically he still exists there too; ie "out of body" experience doesn't mean death/erased from a timeline.

-  "You must NOT go to Titan, as events must happen a certain way to obtain your ultimate goals".  What does he do?  Rushes to Titan.  Gah.  I know of and appreciate his love for Ramse, but dammit Cole.  You know a future is possible with Cassie, but let's risk it all - and life & time itself while we're at it - because you can't live without your homeboy.

-  Nice to have confirmation that Olivia has turned on The Witness/Tall Man/12 Monkeys.  Do call into question why they waited to reunite Ramse with Sam though.  Gotta be some ulterior motive there that she thinks will benefit her somehow.

-  Knew it was Tall/Pallid Man before he pulled back the hood.  Height gave it away.  And how is there a whole big auditorium of 12 Monkeys(?) when the world's supply of "healthy" functioning humans in 2043-future is supposedly quite finite.   Unless after Olivia left the organization, TM went nuts and cultivated a ton of created babies to be future 12 Monkeys.

-  So do we have a timeline (need to go check out the 'Timeline' thread) of what time it was between when Cassie found Cole at the house and the start of MoT?  Might not have been very long, but are we supposed to understand that the first time they did the dirty is when she conceived?  I'm thinking it was in the Fall when she first got to the house, and now its Christmas.  I honestly don't know, when does a woman's body start showing signs to let her know something is happening, in terms of being pregnant?  Is it possible that anywhere from mid-to-late October or early-to-mid November to Christmas is a realistic timeframe to find out & then share the news in a timely manner??

-  I really don't know how to feel about the news that C/C's kid is The Witness.  I'm willing to trust the whole creating, production team & cast because they've done an amazing job with everything else so far, but I don't know.  This almost feels like a bit of a reach.  Like they were sitting around brain-storming and wondering "how can we really shock the pants off the viewers in this finale?" and this was somehow the best of the ideas that were put forth.  But also must remember, going back to 1.5 TNR, Jennifer did have that (thought to be a throw-away) line at the time about how Cole & Cassie together meant "the end of the world", so maybe not quite so much of a 'shot in the dark' as it initially appears and was meant to happen all along..........

Edited July 19, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Cardie]

45 minutes ago, kat165 said:

Someone remind me, is Pallid Man Olivia's brother?

I think they are half-siblings but don't remember super-clearly. Pallid Man is the son of the Messenger played by Scottie Thompson and I think mad doctor Matt Frewer used her eggs to create super-child Olivia.

[blugirlami21]

I really liked it. I like that the paradox issue was resolved and now we have new issues. I think some shows struggle with resolving storylines in a satisfying way.  Monkeys doesn't have that issue.

I too was annoyed that Cole didn't tell Cassie what was going on. I think she's proved time and time again that she can handle herself. I feel like he might have been subconsciously influenced by the time period they were in.

Am I the only one who is beyond done with Ramse at this point? He's so selfish and annoying. Any growth he gained has been lost completely by his continued me, me, my son mentality. I wish he had either stayed dead or been killed again. He doesn't deserve to be reunited with Sam. At all.

I was hoping Sam would be the witness but I knew it would Cole and Cassie's child.

I'm excited about the new season.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Adding a couple thoughts............

Can't wait to see how they explain The Witness-fueled red tea dreams all actually happening to/with Cole - with the now added '1957-1959; This Was Home' graffiti on the wall - but the Witness is the one as shown to be inhabiting the sequences in the dreams/visions.

Also, now that we know that The Witness is C/C's child, just how kinda icky is it looking back that The Witness tried to appeal to Cassie on a romantic love-level when he took over her mind earlier in the season, first with Aaron and then Cole?  Maybe my mind is thinks wrongly about such situations, but that's a weird undertone I could do without.

This is going to be torture waiting for the start of S3 to get answers/resolutions.  Wish I could do what Jones did and have it mean something, when she hopped in the chair and muttered "Starting the Splinter Sequence".  Also want to say what she did after arriving near Titan;  "Holy.  Shit.  Is that what it feels like?!"

[kat165]

Thanks, Cardie.

I just rewatched. Still can't distinguish what Cole's last sentence is to Jennifer when he meets her at the institution when he's tied to the bed and she's hovering up on some platform thingy. Anyone make that out?

When Titan started that blast off sound/sequence Deacon made me laugh at his remark, something like, "That sound means nothing good. " I hope we haven't seen the last of him though it didn't look hopeful.

[thuganomics85]

Well, thanks to some magical tea, looks like most of the deaths are undone, at least.  It wasn't looking good for Deacon though.  Not sure even he can survive that many stabbings.  Hope this isn't the end for him.  I've somehow grew to love him.  And, again, I really want to see more interactions between him and Jennifer, because the brief moments we've been getting, have cracked me up.

Congrats to everyone who called The Witness actually being Cole and Cassie's baby.  I have no idea how the baby was able to escape Cole going back into time and basically undoing two years, but then again, Cassie has some memories of that "lost time", so clearly something funky was going on to make that happen.  But now Cassie has been kidnapped and is in the clutches of the Pallid Man.  In the future.  And Cole is diving in head first to find her.  This should be fun!

Figured Ramse was going to end up back on the path of finding his son, but I totally didn't see it being Olivia who had him.  Who can now walk again.  And is actually against The Witness and the monkeys, now.  Crazy!

Jones coming back and the montage of her just mowing down a bunch of fools, with a cigarette in her mouth, was totally fanservice, but I'll allow it, because it's Jones, and Jones is the best.

Madeline Stowe appearing in person was a nice touch.  I'm guessing there is a 0% chance that either Bruce Willis or Brad Pitt will show up here!

Jennifer getting sent to France/World War 1 is something.  I can only imagine how she'll handle this.  Hopefully she'll use that time to brush up on her inspirational speeches, although mixing a bunch of famous ones from numerous films, was a hilarious approach.

And so begins to long wait until next season.  At least we're getting another season, so I can't complain too much!

[justmehere]

1 hour ago, blugirlami21 said:

Am I the only one who is beyond done with Ramse at this point? He's so selfish and annoying. Any growth he gained has been lost completely by his continued me, me, my son mentality. I wish he had either stayed dead or been killed again.

Not the only one. I was hoping he would die again. When the acolytes (or whatever) were stabbing Deacon, I was like, "No, not him! Ramse!"

28 minutes ago, kat165 said:

Still can't distinguish what Cole's last sentence is to Jennifer when he meets her at the institution when he's tied to the bed and she's hovering up on some platform thingy. Anyone make that out?

Where he told her from now on not to call him otter eyes? She remembered the visit, obviously, saying later that she'd always call him that.

------------

Loved having Jones back and her being a badass with a heart.

Not sure what to make of the baby being the Witness. Will have to wait and see what happens. Right now, it feels cheesy.

Who was the guy was who led Ramse to Olivia? I know I was supposed to recognize him, but I didn't. I'm wondering what Olivia's agenda could be now.

All of Titan being a machine was pretty cool.

Liked Jennifer being transported ("uh oh!") to 1917, sort of in homage to the movie and one of Cole's stops. And she used her whole arsenal of movie quotes! I do wonder how she'll get back to her own time without some sort of tether or anyone knowing where she is.

I was a little unclear about Madeline Stowe. She knew the same things as primaries, but then Cole said she wasn't connected to time. And wasn't the woman in 1957 supposed to be the last one? Or was she just the last one the Messengers needed to kill because it was enough to unravel time?

Overall, somehow, I was a little underwhelmed, but it's still going to be a long wait to find out what's next. I'm definitely still in.

[bethy]

5 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I too was annoyed that Cole didn't tell Cassie what was going on. I think she's proved time and time again that she can handle herself. I feel like he might have been subconsciously influenced by the time period they were in.

I wondered if it was one of those things where Cole knew what had to be done - that he was going to have to do something that would destroy the happiness they'd found - and that telling Cassie wouldn't change what had to be done. While she can handle herself, she's also not been particularly supportive of what Cole's felt like he's had to do. The last time he tried to convince her that he had to do something to save the world and she disagreed with him, she lied to him and drugged him. They might have been living in peace for the last several months, but they'd also had eleven months of bickering about their mission before the paradox. If he was set on doing what had to be done, he may have decided to save himself some pointless, painful arguing by just doing what he knew he had to do. He could also justify it, I'm sure, by telling himself he was protecting her. 

I'm not saying he was right not to tell her, but I can see some reasons why he might have decided not to in that situation.

[Rhetorica]

So the baby is River Song... 

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Rhetorica said:

So the baby is River Song... 

The baby is ALWAYS River Song

Evil but awesome.  I am actually looking forward to seeing baby Cassierole (That is their ship name and I love it or hate it).  

I thought the entire episode was done perfectly,.  Cole is who he is all of them are.  Even when handed his happiest most wish fulfillment place he just couldnt stand by and watch time and the world die not if there  was a chance he could stop it. (I did love him jumping back through the moments of his life and the episode even the pilot).  

I understand why he didn't tell Cassie and I don't blame him. Cassie is the one person who could have changed his mind,. It was her happy place too.  One word from her.  One tear,. Even if she agreed...,,Cassie was the one person who could have stopped him.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Tarasme]

Ok. 12M has always been tough for me to follow, but egads.

What I want? Despite all the Witness takes over Cassie (could that possibly have just been hallucinagen induced whatsits?) and has been big bad since b4 Ramse was outed as the Traveller, could we possibly meet the adult Railey-Cole child and just have her say "Finally! Could you guys get me the hell away from these freaks now?!? I mean, all these crazies wearing creep-oid masks expect me to destroy the world!"

That'd be awesome.

And, they all go to 2016-2020 sans world ending plague and enjoy little league, Thanksgiving dinners, sweet Christmas presents, day jobs, and house rennovations. Not exciting television, but that's what I want. Sue me.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

...I'm guessing there is a 0% chance that either Bruce Willis or Brad Pitt will show up here!

Jennifer getting sent to France/World War 1 is something....

An actual Bruce Willis cameo would have been too farcical, but, IDK, maybe a Bruce Willis look alike?

[marieYOTZ]

4 hours ago, bethy said:

I'm not saying he was right not to tell her, but I can see some reasons why he might have decided not to in that situation.

I was annoyed as I was watching that he didn't just tell her what was happening, but I mulled it over while walking my dogs after viewing, and decided that Cole didn't tell her because he KNEW she'd be like "To hell with our happy life, we must fight the time war!" before pouring the red tea into him with a funnel if necessary, and he just didn't want to actually SEE how willing she would have been to undo their happy memories.  I do wonder, though - if Cole had just played "chicken" with the red forest in 1959, would it have ultimately resolved itself when the Witness was stuck on the farm with his loving folks instead of heading to the future with him mom...

And is Cassie still heading to whatever year to die and leave Cole the message - 2020 or whenever it is - and if she DOES that, wouldn't it seem that she IS in league with the Witness at that point, because it is that message that will set about the whole chain of events that leaves to conception of the Witness, and at the time it is left, presumably Cassie knows enough about what's going on to forestall it by just NOT leaving a message? 

It just makes my brain hurt when I think about it too hard. 

Anyhow, I don't post much here but have enjoyed reading everyone's comments this season -- 12 Monkeys is definitely one of my favorite shows, and I thought this was a great cap to the season, and I'm dreading the long wait til season 3.  And I'm just TICKLED that Jones got a dog.  I am, as always, way happier about the addition of a dog to this (or any) show than I am about the addition of a magic baby.    

[Triskan]

Cant form any cohesive thought ! 

That was a blast ! That whole season has been nothing but stellar ! 

Okay, I'm probably biaised towards the show and will never be able to criticize it, but damn, after all, arent the shows that make us forget all will to diss and nitpick the best ones ? 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Triskan

[MissLucas]

Damnit - they killed Deacon (again)!

I'm still annoyed Cassie never told Cole about the house, but then Cole didn't tell her about the (not) erased time-line though he did tell her about the woman in red. Doesn't make much sense. And everybody tells you to stay away from Titan - so of course you go to Titan. Does red forest tea make you stupid? *eyes her daily cup of rooibos suspiciously*

Also not impressed by Cole pulling a Doctor (Eleven to be more precise) and the River Song baby.

Jennifer's attempt at Henry V by using movie quotes was awesome and the best thing about the whole episode.

Edited July 19, 2016 by MissLucas

[coppersin]

I want to be Jones when I grow up. I'll even accept the chainsmoking if it means I get the dog, the coat, and the no-nonsense aim.

Poor teary-eyed Cole at the end, I wanted to give him a big hug. Then they set up Cassie's next season and I thought, nope, Cassie gets all the hugs. And maybe some xanax. She's gonna need 'em.

14 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Can't wait to see how they explain The Witness-fueled red tea dreams all actually happening to/with Cole - with the now added '1957-1959; This Was Home' graffiti on the wall - but the Witness is the one as shown to be inhabiting the sequences in the dreams/visions.

We don't know that Cole's involved beyond that one message though, right? Witness may have just been showing it as proof that the timeline changed. How the Witness utilizes the red forest and the writing in the house to communicate with people is high up on my wish list - I wanna see all that from his perspective.

 

16 hours ago, MarkZ said:

So now we know there's dozens (if not hundreds) of cultists in the future. So, time didn't stop before then. Doesn't that mean Cole et al. win eventually, in this timeline? Garr! He really should've listened to Madeline Stowe and quit while he was ahead!

They have a time machine the size of a city block. They can go anywhere/anywhen and either whip up a new batch of believers or brainwash some people.

16 hours ago, Cardie said:

So, apparently, the Witness has always been born in the future, presumably brainwashed as he is raised to be the Army of the Twelve's messiah, then sent back when he's an adult to bring about all his Witnessy bad things.  Excellent temporal paradox. Of course, Cole will thwart this and raising the kid right will probably prevent the end of the world. someone upthread said that it's always saving people, not killing them, that the show validates, and they are right.

One of my biggest concerns is that it may not take much brainwashing, if any at all. We've seen how messed up the Primaries are from being constantly tapped into time. Being born from two parents outside of time probably offers even less of a mental anchor. It's going to break my heart if Cassie and Cole try to save someone that can't be saved.

 

12 hours ago, justmehere said:

I was a little unclear about Madeline Stowe. She knew the same things as primaries, but then Cole said she wasn't connected to time. And wasn't the woman in 1957 supposed to be the last one? Or was she just the last one the Messengers needed to kill because it was enough to unravel time?

He thought she was just mentally ill, but then she said enough to prove otherwise. The monkeys were trying to track primaries through history like our team was trying to track the plague. Remember, the one guy in the asylum was the son of the first man they killed in the 40s or 50s (near the beginning of the season). They went after the ones they found based on research, there are presumably other primaries (and probably always have been, if time "needs" them).

Edited July 19, 2016 by coppersin

[Bort]

Also, I think the targeted primaries were ones who they would be able to paradox. For instance, Jennifer wasn't a candidate because her future self wasn't dead yet, thus there was no grave to rob for a nice sharp paradoxical bone. Madeline Stowe may be a primary whose fate was unknown and they didn't know where she was eventually buried. 

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, coppersin said:

They have a time machine the size of a city block. They can go anywhere/anywhen and either whip up a new batch of believers or brainwash some people.

And from the births of the Messengers on, they've been into breeding the Witness's followers.

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Also, I think the targeted primaries were ones who they would be able to paradox. For instance, Jennifer wasn't a candidate because her future self wasn't dead yet, thus there was no grave to rob for a nice sharp paradoxical bone. Madeline Stowe may be a primary whose fate was unknown and they didn't know where she was eventually buried. 

I forgot about that. But how were they able to paradox Charlie's wife (forgot her name) - hundreds of people were killed in the explosion? There were no DNA tests back then so you'd have to assume bodily remains were moved to a mass grave. Assuming they were able to identify her body - why did team splinter never check for a list of casualties from the explosion? That would have helped narrowing things down and it would have revealed that Charlie's very ill wife was at the factory that day.

[Impish Dragon]

I was annoyed with Cole's lack of communication with Cassie regarding the freezing of time.  I was pissed that he made the choice to change things without talking to her.  Not only did he take her choice from her, but he also took the choice from her about what to do with their child.  I would have found it noble if it had been both their decision but it wasn't so I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth.  I don't doubt Cassie would have chosen to save the future. She would have struggled with the choice, but she would do it.  And that I would have liked to see, both of them discussing, struggling with it, but ultimately deciding saving humanity is the way to go.

[cynic]

This was so good! I loved the greatest hits tour, the giant time machine, everything Jennifer, badass Jones (Initiate splinter sequence!), Madeline Stowe, and all the twists.

Cole giving up his happiness to save the world broke my heart.The way he looked at Cassie knowing that she wouldn't remember, gah. As much as I loved that though, I'm not sure about this baby storyline. My love of Fringe was almost ruined when the story ended up revolving around Peter and Olivia's marriage/daughter. It was just too much about that and its schmaltzyness when there were far more interesting things going on that could've gotten the attention. Please do a better job with it, show! The love story is great in moderation, but please don't let it take over. 

It seems likely that next season will be the last.:'(  I'm really curious how they are going to wrap this up. Is it going to circle back around to the plague? Is Cassie still going to leave her message? When Cole showed up at the CDC, Cassie mentioned that he didn't know everything that had happened between them. Is that still going to happen? Is this child what she could have been talking about? Is she going to end up dying in his arms? Is she always going to die, just like Ramsey said? I really want these writers to pull this together and make it all make sense at the end. It might be asking too much, but they've done such a great job these past two years, that I'm cautiously hopeful.

[kat165]

Thanks, Justme.

I wonder if Madeline Stowe has been downing splinter juice because that woman doesn't seem to age. She looked just as beautiful as she did in Last of the Mohicans.

[gibasi]

On 7/18/2016 at 11:05 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The story has always been about Cassie and Cole.  Cole and Cassie.  A doomed love story.

But I have never bought the love story.  I could see that Cole had a thing for Cassie but I have never believed that Cassie loved Cole.  I don't know if it is the acting or the writing but it's only been the past few episodes that I have even seen it being pushed as a thing.  I've always thought of Cole as like Sir Galahad who has to save everyone and that he felt responsible for bringing all of this down on Cassie.

But if it is going to be a love story, then fine.  Do that.  But I don't need any dumb magic baby to be the Witness.  I don't like that at all.  I thought the end was stupid not chilling or anything else.  A bunch of people in masks chanting Mother was just hokey horror movie drama for me.

[Hanahope]

So, what year is Ramse/Olivia in?  Still 2044?  How did Olivia get there?  Or is she supposed to have aged?  She didn't really look older, just a few grey streaks in her hair, but maybe her 'special 12 monkey blood' inhibits aging, so she doesn't age as quickly?

How did Pallid man get to 2163?  What time machine did he use?  Are we supposed to believe that Jones' husband built Titan, went back in time to pick up Pallid man?  Even if he doesn't age quickly either, and "lived" from 2016 to 2044, I would expect him to still look a lot older.

Here I always assumed the "mother" Olivia and the Pallid Man referred to was their own mother, but it looks like that's Cassie.

I think Cole might have sacrificed Ramse, even if his heart broke, but he didn't want Jones to have to sacrifice Hannah again.  That's why, I think, he went to Titan.  If Hannah had remained with Jennifer and the older women, they wouldn't have gone into Titan.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Hanahope

[coppersin]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

So, what year is Ramse/Olivia in?  Still 2044?  How did Olivia get there?  Or is she supposed to have aged?  She didn't really look older, just a few grey streaks in her hair, but maybe her 'special 12 monkey blood' inhibits aging, so she doesn't age as quickly?

Cole & Cassie's mission took a year so we're on 2045 but yep, I think Ramse is still in the same time. Sounds like he saw Titan disappear. Olivia probably doesn't age at a normal pace but I'm wondering if her timeline will be wonky too. Remember, when she found Sam after he splintered into that forest, the time card was static-y, like they were outside of time. Maybe Olivia has found or built a refuge for her and the 12 Monkey defectors?

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

How did Pallid man get to 2163?  What time machine did he use?  Are we supposed to believe that Jones' husband built Titan, went back in time to pick up Pallid man?  Even if he doesn't age quickly either, and "lived" from 2016 to 2044, I would expect him to still look a lot older.

Pallid Man is the one that hired Mr. Jones in 2016 to build Titan. Jones first said it would take decades to build Titan but then added, "unless..." I'm guessing Pallid Man could offer him a boatload of money and no legal or moral restrictions whatsoever, and ta-da! Titan is ready to go in a few years.

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Here I always assumed the "mother" Olivia and the Pallid Man referred to was their own mother, but it looks like that's Cassie.

I've seen this mentioned a few times but I'm still not sold on it. I can't see Cassie drinking the Kool-Aid and promising a Witness-y future to Olivia and Pallid Man. Until they show us an older Cassie taking on her role as the cult matriarch, I'm gonna assume that "mother" was Vivian. (BTW, is she Olivia's bio-mom? I thought Vivian was "mother" like Frewer's character was "father" but maybe I'm misremembering?)

[Hanahope]

45 minutes ago, coppersin said:

Pallid Man is the one that hired Mr. Jones in 2016 to build Titan. Jones first said it would take decades to build Titan but then added, "unless..." I'm guessing Pallid Man could offer him a boatload of money and no legal or moral restrictions whatsoever, and ta-da! Titan is ready to go in a few years.

Oh yeah, I vaguely recall this now.  I'm going to have to go back and rewatch that episode.  Which one was it?

And yes, the impression I got is that Vivian was Olivia's bio-mom.  There was a scene by the witness telling Frewer he would provide a 'perfect' woman for his experiments, which produced Olivia, and Vivian did come back to the lab to fetch Olivia and I thought said she was her mother.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Hanahope

[Rhetorica]

8 hours ago, gibasi said:

But I have never bought the love story.  I could see that Cole had a thing for Cassie but I have never believed that Cassie loved Cole.  I don't know if it is the acting or the writing but it's only been the past few episodes that I have even seen it being pushed as a thing.  I've always thought of Cole as like Sir Galahad who has to save everyone and that he felt responsible for bringing all of this down on Cassie.

But if it is going to be a love story, then fine.  Do that.  But I don't need any dumb magic baby to be the Witness.  I don't like that at all.  I thought the end was stupid not chilling or anything else.  A bunch of people in masks chanting Mother was just hokey horror movie drama for me.

The chanting wasn't near as chilling as "One of Us!"

[MissLucas]

8 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Here I always assumed the "mother" Olivia and the Pallid Man referred to was their own mother, but it looks like that's Cassie.

I agree with the others - the "mother" Olivia and the Pallid Man were talking about was Vivian the messenger. The show has a "mother"-fetish so it's easy to get confused.

There's Vivian the "mother" of Olivia (by genetic engineering) and the Pallid Man (by natural conception it seems), it's even written on her tombstone - but Vivian's also Olivia's daughter. Then there's Jennifer who has her own maternal trauma and became/becomes "mother" to the army of the daughters. And then there's Doctor Jones whose refusal to accept her daughter's death kicked off the whole thing - and it was also a pretty big deal when Hannah/Zeit called her "mother" for the first time. Plus there's the woman in red who is probably Cole's mother.

Cassie is just the latest addition to the all the "mothers" already running the show. (The only mother nobody really cared about was Sam's mom.)

Edited July 20, 2016 by MissLucas

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Jennifer's movie mashup speech was hilarious! Loved that she followed it up with Bill and Ted! But one of the things I love about this group of actors is how they can make even a simple "Uh oh" hilarious (Deacon did it last week and Jennifer did it this week).

I was so relieved to see that Ramse, Deacon, Whitley, and Hanna were saved from being slaughtered  but then I was like DAMN IT, YOU GUYS, listen to Jennifer and Deacon! When the hot-headed members of your group are telling you to get the hell out, you should really pay attention instead of doing the opposite of what they are saying. If only they had listened, Deacon wouldn't have been stabbed and Cassie wouldn't have been splintered to 2163.

One of the things I really loved was that Cole is still so committed to the mission that, like Buffy, he is willing to sacrifice his happiness in order to save the world (ahem, unlike Ramse). He had a tough life in foster care, watching half the world die, scavenging to survive with Ramse, and then he worked basically nonstop for three years splintering all over the place trying to stop the plague and save the world so if anyone deserves some happiness with a girl he loves, it's Cole. But he gave up his relationship with Cassie and their baby in order to ensure the survival of the world and the stability of time.

Hee, totally love that Jennifer refused to stop referring to Cole as Otter Eyes. Their friendship is so endearing. I also loved that after all the time he has spent translating Jennifer's primary to English babbling, he knew exactly what Lillian was talking about and what she meant.

I also loved Deacon's simple but sincere "Sorry I killed you" just before he sacrificed himself to save Jennifer. Poor Jennifer is not going to enjoy WW1. I hope Jones is able to get her back to 2044 soon.

On a shallow note, I guess the masks and robes allow the show not to do any weird futuristic Jetsons type costumes for 2163.

I'm really curious as to why Cassie and Cole's kid wants to collapse time. I had assumed that the Witness had lost someone really important and that was his motivation so that they could be together forever.