S02.E08: New Car

[radishcake]

Philip and Elizabeth both find themselves faced with painful turns in their various missions. Stan fights to gain access to an American military program that could give him the upper hand in his battle of wills with Oleg.

 

 

[AimingforYoko]

Lucia's demise you could see coming a mile away. It wasn't a 'cause' to her, it was personal.

[ethanvahlere]

Oleg playing pinball just makes perfect sense.

I've really liked this season so far, but it does seem like the investigation into who killed Emmett and Leanne is being dropped. I hope they get back to that soon.

[whiporee]

Henry broke my cold heart tonight. 

I was glad Oleg made his point about the Russians taking the design and corrupting it, because he was in all likelihood right. It wasn't the Americans at all, but everyone pointing fingers. For a Godless commie, he's really growing on me. And if I was them, Reagan would have scared the crap out of me. Heck, I was me, and he scared the crap out of me :) 

I do think that tonight was one of the first times that the political viewpoint was split. P&E are protagonists, but they aren't good. They might be excusable soldiers in a war, but they aren't heroes.

[maraleia]

Henry is the person I feel for the most and tonight he tore me into pieces. Watching Ronald Reagan on Phillip and Elizabeth's TV gave me the chills too and I lived it already. He truly riled up people unnecessarily during the 80's with his endless Oval Office addresses.

[90PercentGravity]

It seems like Phillip is going soft again.

Obviously they sold Paige to buy the Camaro. Nothing at all conspicuous about a brand new sports car, clever spy guy.

Stan is pretty much screwed. When he pulled into the garage, I thought maybe he was going to kill himself. That's pretty much his only chance for avoiding a lengthy prison sentence.

The actor playing the sanitation worker was kind of awesome. Great casting there.

I've noticed MR's accent slipping a lot lately. I don't know if it is slipping more than usual or if I am just noticing it more, though.

[dramachick]

I was glad Oleg made his point about the Russians taking the design and corrupting it, because he was in all likelihood right. It wasn't the Americans at all, but everyone pointing fingers. For a Godless commie, he's really growing on me. And if I was them, Reagan would have scared the crap out of me. Heck, I was me, and he scared the crap out of me :) 

I think what Oleg was saying was that if the Russians had taken the proper time for due diligence, instead of rushing the propeller onto the wrong kind of submarine, they would have discovered that the plans were fake without sacrificing any sailors' lives.

Stan is spiraling out of control.  I couldn't believe that he suggested to Gaad that they kill Oleg, especially after Gaad got "layered" because Stan killed Vlad.  Gaad is not going to die on that hill named Beeman.  I almost feel sorry for Stan.

I'm glad Arkady warned Nina that Oleg is not somebody to mess with, in case she hasn't figured out how dangerous he is.  Sexy and fun, oh yes, but very dangerous.

Phillip and Elizabeth are amazing at how they compartmentalize their conflicting emotions and get on with the work they have to do.  I enjoy watching them tentatively prod and push as they re-define their marriage and the way they relate to each other.

Lucia and her suicide mission!  Well, at least she went out like a soldier.

[Boundary]

It seems like Phillip is going soft again.

We started the season with Philip butchering a bunch of Afghans and by last week he seemed utterly unhappy at offing "innocent" bystanders who are there at the wrong time. I think this week was an extension of that arc but is he getting soft? The way he stared at that Camaro after being told about the sub, I think his resolve is now back. I'm now getting nervous the season-long plan to infiltrate the camps - something is bound to go catastrophically wrong, it might well be the innocent guy Philip refused to let Elizabeth kill. Or more likely, it might be Larrick. I was quite impressed with Elizabeth keeping her eye on the mission; just like Lucia, she had a personal bone to pick with Larrick. He most likely killed Emmett and his family, he makes Granny nervous and he most likely poses a threat to Elizabeth's family. But Lizzy didn't rise to the bait, I wonder how she'll regret that decision by season's end.

 

Stan is spiraling out of control.  I couldn't believe that he suggested to Gaad that they kill Oleg, especially after Gaad got "layered" because Stan killed Vlad.  Gaad is not going to die on that hill named Beeman.  I almost feel sorry for Stan.

I'm beginning to look at Stan's situation professionally, cause personally he's a wreak, he's fallen for his spy and is destroying his marriage, for what? Looking at it that way I don't feel sorry for him at all. However, job wise, I think he's spot on to recognise the danger and it seems he's the only one. Of cause, offing Oleg - for the trouble he brought on himself - wouldn't solve the problem. I think Stan is connecting the dots between the missing Anton, Oleg and the ARPANET, which I don't believe anyone is doing so far. It could be that the DOD is on top of it (planting fake propeller plans seems to have been a deliberate counter move, or was it a stab in the dark that paid off?). The Russians think they are turning Stan but I don't think he's going to give up that easily. If he gets the clearance, he might have ammunition to fight back, or have access to even more secrets to trade for Nina. Which way is he going to go?

As for Nina, my weekly wonderings about her own personal endgame continue. I applauded her firm stance against the dance, it would've been unbelievably stupid. I'm surprised Oleg was insisting, so far he's been portrayed as smart. She's also playing Stan like a cat playing with food. But it'll be very easy to get caught up between those two men. And if she loses the trust of both ...

Edited April 17, 2014 by Boundary

[Pixie16]

The writers were not doing their research. When the car salesman told P he "could really zip around in an area like this," Falls Church has a speed limit of 25.

[picklesprite]

whiporee:
 

I do think that tonight was one of the first times that the political viewpoint was split. P&E are protagonists, but they aren't good. They might be excusable soldiers in a war, but they aren't heroes.

 

This seemed like a pivotal moment in the series. In the first season, they got us attached to the characters and feeling some sympathy for them; now they can bear down on exactly how cold-blooded they are in their mission and how very much they Don't Like Us. Elizabeth, anyway, although Phillip looked as if he might torture and kill that car next. I love this series so I hope it can maintain at least some balance between viewers' empathy and disgust. In this era of non-hero heroes on TV, it seems to be hard to keep the sympathy part. I turned away from my beloved Justified because it tipped me over into "just ew," and of course Scandal has completely given up on heroes.

One more thing--I know they love their kids, but man, their silence at the edge of Henry's bed chilled me.

[Rogaine2233]

I started to seriously worry for Martha when she told Clark she didn't want to help him anymore.

[Tara Ariano]

Here's my post on the episode!

[attica]

I think what Oleg was saying was that if the Russians had taken the proper time for due diligence, instead of rushing the propeller onto the wrong kind of submarine, they would have discovered that the plans were fake without sacrificing any sailors' lives.

 

No, I think the plans they stole were real, and that Oleg knows it. The Russian brass are blaming 'bad plans' because admitting they improperly installed and inadequately tested the propellers isn't something they were about to do.

Interestingly, blaming 'bad plans' also alludes to a mindset that was certainly prevalent amongst US intelligence leaders at the time: that any intelligence spies managed to get must've been planted on purpose for them to get, and be basically disinformation. CIAers called it the Black Hat theory. Kinda cool to see the Russians infected with the whole invincible bogeyman fear as well.

The Reagan CPAC speech was used to really good effect in this ep. You could really feel how Liz found him to be EEEvil. I remember how certain I was when he was elected that we'd have a war with the USSR, but these days he's certainly held up as a saint in many quarters. The contrast is bracing.

[whiporee]

The thing Reagan's speech though, to me, was showing how indoctrinated everyone becomes to their philosophy. In that speech, Reagan says nothing about anything except increasing defense spending, that he would sacrifice a balanced budget to sure up national defense. He says nothing about Nicaragua, or Afganistan, or Evil Empire. He's just talking about spending money.  Unless she was prophetic, she had no idea that strategy would eventually bring down the Soviet Union. I'm not sure anyone -- including Reagan and his team -- did. 

But Elizabeth's reaction is to assign malicious intent to him, regardless. Now, a lot of us did. But remember, she's been living in the US for more than a decade at this point. She's been receiving American perspective on everything. And in order to steel herself -- in order to do what she has to do every day -- she has to assign everything about the US as bad. Phillip is just doing a job, but Elizabeth is a zealot. Phillip would have killed Larrick; Elizabeth would have killed the septic guy. 

[dramachick]

The Reagan CPAC speech was used to really good effect in this ep. You could really feel how Liz found him to be EEEvil. I remember how certain I was when he was elected that we'd have a war with the USSR, but these days he's certainly held up as a saint in many quarters. The contrast is bracing.

I hate that they re-named Washington National Airport.  I will continue to call it Washington National until the day I die.

[attica]

Man, Nina is playing everybody. That's like juggling chainsaws: everybody's gonna get bloody.

[Tech Noir]

The actor playing the sanitation worker was kind of awesome.

 

Word. He was amazing, communicating so much with almost no dialogue.

Oleg is so sinister and charming! I love it! I hope he stays around for a while. Sadly, I cannot say the same of Martha. I find her annoying, not sure if I am supposed to or not, but that's how it is. I really hope they wrap that storyline up soon.

Bitchin' Camaro, Phillip.

[NitneLiun]

I found Elizabeth's description of Reagan as evil to be absurdly hypocritical. She is living in the USA, routinely killing American citizens. I suppose she has no sense of irony at all. The only reason the Soviets didn't pass on misinformation that resulted in the sinking of an American submarine is because they didn't think of it first.

So many people find it remarkable that Phillip and Elizabeth are able to compartmentalize their jobs, cover life, family life, etc. The truth is that people who can do that have a very rare psychological profile. One of the elements of that profile is sociopathy. This is especially true of Elizabeth. They are highly trained and tightly controlled sociopaths, but sociopaths nonetheless. Much like Dexter has his "code" that directs his activities, P & E have their code. Their code is communism.

[parandroid]

 

Man, Nina is playing everybody. That's like juggling chainsaws: everybody's gonna get bloody.

Not responding to you personally, Attica. Your opinion is shared by many, and my $0.02 is that this is just appearances. Nina was dead serious and sincere in her confession in S1's "The Oath", and in her desire to play Stan. I think that any ambiguity in how her actions appear to a viewer is inherent in the untrustworthiness of any double-agent. But we, the viewer are privileged. Only we know that she was sincere in her loyalty and reconversion to the KGB, and so no matter how unsure other characters are about her loyalties, we know that she is a double-agent for the KGB.

I do agree that she is juggling chainsaws, but I don't think she is playing anyone other than Stan.

[picklesprite]

Did anyone besides me wonder if the Americans could be protecting Oleg at a high level, and that's why Stan can't get the info he wants? In other words, might he be a double agent, himself? But that would mean he is testing Stan, and Stan has already failed, and. . .

Nah. Probably not. But. . .

[dramachick]

I did not mean to stir up a political debate. This is obviously the wrong board to do that. All I meant to say is that whether Reagan is evil or not is a POV. People on the losing side of a violently contested argument can come away with the impression that the other party is evil. This does not, by itself, mean that either party is evil.

To make the analogy crystal clear (and to avoid misunderstanding), I am saying that just because the USA and the USSR were on the opposing sides of the cold war doesn't make them evil, but they were definitely percieved by the opposing sides as being evil. Having this opinion didn't make the citizenry of either country evil or bad. IOW, its not surpising that Elizabeth and Philip viewed Reagan through Soviet colored glasses. He was the enemy of their country. They loved their country. It was as simple as that.

I understand what you're saying.  I think the character, Gregory was an example of someone who was not looking through Soviet colored glasses but hated some things about the U.S. government while loving his country at the same time.

[maraleia]

I moved the political discussions into a new thread so people can debate those ideas there. This way if others don't want to wade into these issues they won't have to when visiting episode threads for this show. When enough times passes I will be deleting this post so the conversation isn't interrupted.

[beeble]

This was a better-than-average episode, and the average episode is very good.  And we did it without Claudia. Not sure you can pull that off again, show.

Elizabeth is so damn cold with her rigid ideology. She'd smack some of those Soviet Embassy men around good, if I were one of the god-like writers creating a fantasy show.  And she doesn't enjoy any of it.  What I don't get is what brought her into the KGB? Doesn't she have a dog in the fight? What is her touchstone that keeps her ideology afloat?  I think we got a glimpse of this with her work with her recruit who died for her (black Panther?) but she's a tough nut to crack. Lucia, on the other hand, had a valid reason for her anger. Reagan's Latin-American policy of supporting fascist regimes was hideous, and the humanitarian crimes committed against the leftists were disgusting, and also not always reported, all in the name of security. 

Nina is just used by these guys; they care about her, but I think they love their political games more. At the very least, Oleg does. I don't know that Oleg has an ideology other than wanting to win. Stan is a cop but maybe he wants to be a spy, even though we can see he'd be an awful one. I will also say I find Oleg sleazy but the guy who plays him is terrific. The acting is strong all around, but the Russian actors are coming off very strong here. 

I want to see Martha turn the tables on people and score some points. She's not dim, just lonely. She's a good office manager and cares about her job. I hope she starts to see Clark as something beyond what he's told her. 

Nice to see Henry given a dramatic moment. What would two Soviet-raised parents do about this? He did something bad but he's not a bad person; can they offer him any comfort at all? 

In the 80's the Stealth bomber was only theoretical and never showed it could work until the first gulf war. When did Reagan start talking about the Missile Defense Shield? (THe giant dome that would protect us, Star Trek like). I feel like it was early in his presidency.

[Joystickenvy]

It seems like Phillip is going soft again.

Obviously they sold Paige to buy the Camaro.

Hmmmmm precocious teenage daughter who inconviently snoops around in your spy bidness and then joins the cult of Eli or a snazzy new sports car. Philip obviously made the right choice.

Breaking into the neighbors' house to play video games seems like kind of bizarre behavior. Poor Henry will never get that Intellivision now.

I think Elizabeth has to keep reminding herself that she hates the American way of life because if she lets herself believe maybe it's not all as bad as she imagines, she won't be able to live with what she has already done, let alone keep doing it.

[whiporee]

 

I think Elizabeth has to keep reminding herself that she hates the American way of life because if she lets herself believe maybe it's not all as bad as she imagines, she won't be able to live with what she has already done, let alone keep doing it.

That's the key thing -- if she ever stops thinking she's an an actual shooting war (remember how quick she was to get the rifles and ammo int he episode where Reagan was shot), she won't be abel to function at all. She's killed a lot of civilians in her days; should they turn out to be actual murders instead of collateral damage, I don't think she could live with it. 

As i rethink the scene, this is what stands out. Without getting into ideology, E is watching Reagan, talking about how evil he is for his policies that have led to the killing of innocents. She does this having been a person who has actually pulled the trigger and garroted innocents. 

[Boundary]

 Sadly, I cannot say the same of Martha. I find her annoying, not sure if I am supposed to or not, but that's how it is. I really hope they wrap that storyline up soon.

Me too. I find myself cringing at every scene with Martha and Clark, even before any dialogue. I really hope they wrap it up too. Oddly, I don't find Martha annoying when she's at the FBI office.

 

I do agree that she is juggling chainsaws, but I don't think she is playing anyone other than Stan.

I don't think she's completely honest with Oleg, in fact the only person I believe she's been completely honest with is Arkady. I do believe she's spying for Russia now but it's a choice, like every other we've seen from her, that benefits her first and foremost. She recommitted to Russia like you've noted but only after Stan proved unreliable and dangerous when he killed Vlad. My test for seeing whether Nina isn't ultimately playing the Russians too is her reaction when she's given a choice between her own personal security and Philip and Elizabeth's. Would she throw them under the bus if it means ensuring her double agent status?

[Helena Dax]

 

how very much they Don't Like Us

I don't think Elizabeth dislikes Americans, she dislikes some Americans. But she loved Gregory and I'm pretty sure she feels sympathy for the "victims" of the capitalism,  you know, homeless people, people in ghettos... During communism, racism was a crime against the revolution and it was punished by law (and society). Of course, I'm sure there were racist people because you know, people, but Sovietic propaganda said racism was awful and since Elizabeth believes every bit of Sovietic propaganda she's  heard, I can totally see her thinking that with her fight she's helping black people in America too.

(I found this clip, I think it could be interesting. They're cartoons which show racism in the USA from the Soviet Union point of view.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ0v2QCWMzE

I can't believe they didn't kill that guy in the woods. I'm glad they didn't do it, but it's a huge risk. I mean, Elizabeth let Lucia die because the mission was so important but now she and Philip are risking it because they don't want to kill some random guy?

Even Martha and Clark's marriage is stronger than Stan and his wife's.

Loved all the scenes with Nina, Oleg and Arkady, 

[Hal25]

Lucia's demise you could see coming a mile away. It wasn't a 'cause' to her, it was personal.

I saw it as both. I really think she believed in what she was doing too, she was just blinded in that one instance by something personal. Really, she's completely like Elizabeth in that regard. We saw Elizabeth do the exact same thing she did (defy what was best for the mission to avenge a personal death) with Zhukov. We also saw her put personal feelings above the mission with Timoshev and with Gregory. The only difference is Philip. Philip loves and supports Elizabeth, so he puts her feelings above the mission. Lucia has no one who loves her, and Elizabeth let her die rather than do the same thing for Lucia that Philip did for her. Not that I don't appreciate the complexities of Elizabeth's choice, but when you think about it, things were just as detrimental for P/E as a result of Philip allowing Elizabeth's feelings to come first (Patterson ratted them out to the FBI, they got in trouble with Moscow over Timoshev) as it would've been if she'd saved Lucia. It was a well-drawn parallel.

 

Sadly, I cannot say the same of Martha. I find her annoying, not sure if I am supposed to or not, but that's how it is. I really hope they wrap that storyline up soon.

I don't enjoy Martha at all. I recognize that the show wants me to feel sympathy for her, but all I can find myself feeling when she's on screen is annoyance and the wish they'd take her off screen in favor of someone more interesting. I hope we're done with her storyline by season's end.

Even Martha and Clark's marriage is stronger than Stan and his wife's.

The farce of it is. In reality it's the weakest one on the show as it was formed with one party fully intending to kill the other or leave her heartbroken as soon as her usefulness is up.

[Helena Dax]

Yeah, my bad, I wanted to say that it looks stronger than Stan and his wife's.

[fastiller]

Breaking into the neighbors' house to play video games seems like kind of bizarre behavior. Poor Henry will never get that Intellivision now.

I seem to recall a story on This American Life or some similar NPR program about someone who spent his teen years breaking into his neighbors houses because his home life was just terrible.  He'd just break in and pretend he lived in the neighbor's house instead of his own.  I couldn't find it online, but I didn't look too terribly much.

[lucindabelle]

Won't the man die of exposure and starvation if he's tied up and gagged?

[Hal25]

Won't the man die of exposure and starvation if he's tied up and gagged?

Wasn't the mission supposed to take place soon? For some reason I thought the following day, but I might be wrong on that. For exposure, it depends how cold it is. If he was bundled up and it wasn't too cold, he would have a reasonable chance of surviving a day or two. He would need water within 2-3 days or he would die. You can go weeks without eating and that guy had plenty of bulk on him to begin with.

[Orbert]

Didn't Phillip say something about grabbing a blanket from the car?

[Hal25]

Yeah, I thought he did.

[SunnyBeBe]

 Lucia was not really spy material. She was more of an assassin, but maybe too passionate to do that properly..

Can someone tell me how did Lucia know where that military guy lived? She had no prior dealings with him. How would she have known? I'm not sure if that is a clue or just a glitch in the story.  

Also, when Elizabeth and Phillip met with this top military guy in the fake interview a week or so ago, they pretended to be FBI or CIA. He seemed to buy it since they had the guys military records. But then in this episode he knew they were Soviet agents. Which is it? I don't understand.

Edited April 23, 2014 by SunnyBeBe

[MsChipper]

 

Can someone tell me how did Lucia know where that military guy lived? She had no prior dealings with him. How would she have known?

 

But then in this episode he knew they were Soviet agents. Which is it? I don't understand.

I'm guessing she got a hold of some confidential files or followed him. Considering the amount of time she's held the thought of revenge on him, I'm sure she would be resourceful enough to get hold of that information.

 

For the second question - Remember when Philip went to that gay bar to look for Larrick a few epis ago? It was to reveal that they were soviet agents and to get him to work for them again. Larrick said something like, "You're not CIA."

[John Potts]

Tech Noir Sadly, I cannot say the same of Martha. I find her annoying, not sure if I am supposed to or not, but that's how it is.

 

Yeah, I love the fact that the one marriage where both parties are "unfaithful" (Phil & Elizabeth) is the one that seems the most solid. Stan & his wife (whose name I've completely forgotten) or Martha & "Clark" could take marriage guidance from them (if it wasn't for the obvious problems it would pose). But I wasn't clear what Phil was trying to achieve by playing the "She's a total uggo!" tape - presumably he needs her to remain in that post so isn't going "Your co-workers are all jerks!" likely to cause her to quit? Unless he wants out of the "marriage" (which I'd understand) it just seems counter productive to his aims.

 

I was wondering if we were supposed to be learning something about the virtues of swallowing your feelings - Philizabeth's over Lucia's death, Philip over Martha, Nina over any of the men in her life and Stan over Nina.

[Joystickenvy]

But I wasn't clear what Phil was trying to achieve by playing the "She's a total uggo!" tape - presumably he needs her to remain in that post so isn't going "Your co-workers are all jerks!" likely to cause her to quit? Unless he wants out of the "marriage" (which I'd understand) it just seems counter productive to his aims.

 

.

In an earlier episode Martha was starting to balk at carrying out the taskes Clark requested because she was feeling guilty about betraying people she liked & respected and thought also liked & respected her.

The tape was supposed to make her more willing to turn on them because they were being mean and disrespectful behind her back. It goes to both convincing her that maybe they aren't good people and motivates her to want to bring them down.

[Loandbehold]

 

But I wasn't clear what Phil was trying to achieve by playing the "She's a total uggo!" tape - presumably he needs her to remain in that post so isn't going "Your co-workers are all jerks!" likely to cause her to quit?

In an earlier episode Martha was starting to balk at carrying out the taskes Clark requested because she was feeling guilty about betraying people she liked & respected and thought also liked & respected her.

The tape was supposed to make her more willing to turn on them because they were being mean and disrespectful behind her back. It goes to both convincing her that maybe they aren't good people and motivates her to want to bring them down.

As for worrying about Marth quitting, in a prior episode, he convinced her not to take another job in the FBI. Presumably, that position is now filled. So, she has nowhere else to go. As Joystickenvy said, how that she's staying, he needed her to continue spying on them for him.

[John Potts]

Yeah, her opportunity has probably gone at the other job she was presumably thinking of applying for, but she (supposedly) isn't an idiot - there are other jobs. I guess she feels that what she's doing is important (which it is) and that she ought to put up with the scorn of her colleagues, particularly if the alternative is starting somewhere else at the ground floor.

[ToxicUnicorn]

The actor playing the sanitation worker was kind of awesome. Great casting there.

Came to say this.  He was outstanding.  

[Chaos Theory]

I always like the "Do you like it here?"  conversations between Philip and Elizabeth because they are always interesting and they take into account both sides.  Philip truly enjoys his cover as an American but then he is the one with the fake real wife and the fake real friend.  Elizabeth refuses to allow herself to enjoy all the trapping of American life which makes her job easier but also makes her a colder person.  Nicer and easier doesn't equal better.  Which is true.  Then again being cool and cold might be a good thing.  Lucia ran hot and couldn't see clearly.  She missed the forest for the revenge fantasy.  The big picture always comes first and Elizabeth told that to her.  Hell they were always planning on killing Larik.  Just not right this second.

Poor Anton.  A Part of me thought he was going to tell his shiny new Russian boss to go screw himself or commit suicide but then he is first a scientist. 

Nina might just be the best spy of them all.  She just plays everyone like a puppet master doesn't she?  

The Submarine story done very well and worked for the overall story Phillip's push/pull arc.  That something based on the plans he stole caused the death of hundreds of Russian soldiers would be something that pulled him back in.  The idea that the Americans would put out plans for Russians to steal that would sink a submarine would be enough to make his feelings about America (he bought a new car just because he wanted one) to change again.   The difference between his mood before the meeting with Kate and after was telling.  He brushed off the dust on his car before the meeting like someone who loves that shiny new car and after looked at the car like it was a symbol of everything he hated.

And yes a very nice moment for Henry.   I thought the entire speech was very well done and a good mirror for Philip's mindset in general.   The more I thought about it his words could be used for how Philip thinks about himself.  

On 4/18/2014 at 9:16 AM, Helena Dax said:

Even Martha and Clark's marriage is stronger than Stan and his wife's.

For a marriage based on lies and deception; it is actually a pretty strong marriage isn't it?  It is one of the things I find so intrigued about Martha and Clarke.  Yes he lies and manipulates her constantly but he is also there for her alot more then Stan ever was for his wife.   Then again Stan and his wife aren't exactly a good measuring stick for a functioning marriage.  

 

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 7:01 AM, whiporee said:

I do think that tonight was one of the first times that the political viewpoint was split. P&E are protagonists, but they aren't good. They might be excusable soldiers in a war, but they aren't heroes.

Is Stan good? Or rather, would he good if he hadn't cheated his wife and hadn't fallen for Nina? He would still have blackmailed Nina, used her and endanged her life. That's his job. 

I think that the main point that there are no heroes in the cold war and both sides do bad things for the aim they think is good. 

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 4:13 PM, picklesprite said:

This seemed like a pivotal moment in the series. In the first season, they got us attached to the characters and feeling some sympathy for them; now they can bear down on exactly how cold-blooded they are in their mission and how very much they Don't Like Us. Elizabeth, anyway, although Phillip looked as if he might torture and kill that car next. I love this series so I hope it can maintain at least some balance between viewers' empathy and disgust. In this era of non-hero heroes on TV, it seems to be hard to keep the sympathy part. I turned away from my beloved Justified because it tipped me over into "just ew," and of course Scandal has completely given up on heroes. 

 

What do Elizabeth and Philip do that the American's doesn't do?

I think that the great thing in this show is that, whereas usually the "enemy" is shown  Not Like Us and Evil, here all characters on both sides are human and therefore we can understand and sympathize them all, regardles of our political opinions. 

Before all, this is a show. In order to continue, Elizabeth and Philip can't be caught. 

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 6:17 PM, whiporee said:

The thing Reagan's speech though, to me, was showing how indoctrinated everyone becomes to their philosophy. In that speech, Reagan says nothing about anything except increasing defense spending, that he would sacrifice a balanced budget to sure up national defense. He says nothing about Nicaragua, or Afganistan, or Evil Empire. He's just talking about spending money.  Unless she was prophetic, she had no idea that strategy would eventually bring down the Soviet Union. I'm not sure anyone -- including Reagan and his team -- did. 

But Elizabeth's reaction is to assign malicious intent to him, regardless. Now, a lot of us did. But remember, she's been living in the US for more than a decade at this point. She's been receiving American perspective on everything. And in order to steel herself -- in order to do what she has to do every day -- she has to assign everything about the US as bad. Phillip is just doing a job, but Elizabeth is a zealot. Phillip would have killed Larrick; Elizabeth would have killed the septic guy. 

Well, I agree that a good spy isn't emotional and use such words than "evil" but understands and coolly analyzes the opponent's POV. 

But one can understand Elizabeth, too, knowing the Russian mentality created by the history. Russia has no natural borders and it has been invaded by Charles XII, Napoleon, and Hitler, among others. So the fear of war is much stronger in the Russians than in the Americans whose civil population has never experienced occupation, mass evacuation, genocide or even mass bombing.      

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 10:25 PM, NitneLiun said:

I found Elizabeth's description of Reagan as evil to be absurdly hypocritical. She is living in the USA, routinely killing American citizens. I suppose she has no sense of irony at all. The only reason the Soviets didn't pass on misinformation that resulted in the sinking of an American submarine is because they didn't think of it first.

So many people find it remarkable that Phillip and Elizabeth are able to compartmentalize their jobs, cover life, family life, etc. The truth is that people who can do that have a very rare psychological profile. One of the elements of that profile is sociopathy. This is especially true of Elizabeth. They are highly trained and tightly controlled sociopaths, but sociopaths nonetheless. Much like Dexter has his "code" that directs his activities, P & E have their code. Their code is communism.

See the answers above.

Are the Americans in the show sociopaths, too? 

On ‎18‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 7:36 AM, beeble said:

Elizabeth is so damn cold with her rigid ideology. She'd smack some of those Soviet Embassy men around good, if I were one of the god-like writers creating a fantasy show.  And she doesn't enjoy any of it.  What I don't get is what brought her into the KGB? Doesn't she have a dog in the fight? What is her touchstone that keeps her ideology afloat?  I think we got a glimpse of this with her work with her recruit who died for her (black Panther?) but she's a tough nut to crack. Lucia, on the other hand, had a valid reason for her anger. Reagan's Latin-American policy of supporting fascist regimes was hideous, and the humanitarian crimes committed against the leftists were disgusting, and also not always reported, all in the name of security. 

Elizabeth's reasons are very clear: her father died in WW2 and she was very poor when a child, so she wanted to serve her motherland and show how good she was.

Also, she grew up in the 60ies when there were still idealism in Russia. If she had lived in Russia, that idealism had been met by the real circumstances there. Now it never has as she can't speak openly with Russians who have different opinions.      

On ‎18‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 3:47 PM, whiporee said:

That's the key thing -- if she ever stops thinking she's an an actual shooting war (remember how quick she was to get the rifles and ammo int he episode where Reagan was shot), she won't be abel to function at all. She's killed a lot of civilians in her days; should they turn out to be actual murders instead of collateral damage, I don't think she could live with it. 

As i rethink the scene, this is what stands out. Without getting into ideology, E is watching Reagan, talking about how evil he is for his policies that have led to the killing of innocents. She does this having been a person who has actually pulled the trigger and garroted innocents. 

It's true that Elizabeth has killed also innocents but only when they had been "in the wrong time in the wrong place". It's not her main job. 

She hasn't been a member of the killing group that murdered Lucia's family, nor ordered such policy.

On ‎18‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 4:37 PM, Hal25 said:

I saw it as both. I really think she believed in what she was doing too, she was just blinded in that one instance by something personal. Really, she's completely like Elizabeth in that regard. We saw Elizabeth do the exact same thing she did (defy what was best for the mission to avenge a personal death) with Zhukov. We also saw her put personal feelings above the mission with Timoshev and with Gregory. The only difference is Philip. Philip loves and supports Elizabeth, so he puts her feelings above the mission. Lucia has no one who loves her, and Elizabeth let her die rather than do the same thing for Lucia that Philip did for her. Not that I don't appreciate the complexities of Elizabeth's choice, but when you think about it, things were just as detrimental for P/E as a result of Philip allowing Elizabeth's feelings to come first (Patterson ratted them out to the FBI, they got in trouble with Moscow over Timoshev) as it would've been if she'd saved Lucia. It was a well-drawn parallel.

I don't agree that it's a proper comparision. The reason why Elizabeth didn't kill Lawrick but let he kill Lucia, was that Lawrick was useful for the aim. When Elizabeth killed in order to revenge Zhukov's death, she didn't have to make such a choice.

I think it was much more worse when Stan killed an innocent in order to revenge his friend. It was both unnecessary and a mistake as the offer was Nina's friend.

It also showed both that Stan had lowered morally and that he was so inexperineced that he couldn't kill looking to the eyes but had to shoot from the back.    

[picklesprite]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What do Elizabeth and Philip do that the American's doesn't do?

Not a thing. I wasn't comparing them.

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2014 at 10:09 AM, dramachick said:

I'm glad Arkady warned Nina that Oleg is not somebody to mess with, in case she hasn't figured out how dangerous he is.  Sexy and fun, oh yes, but very dangerous.

I remember that Arkady spoke of Oleg's influental family: that they could be a benefit to Nina's career, or vice versa. I understood that Arkady simply meant that although Nina and Oleg's relationship was their own business, if Nina was serious about Oleg and wanted to marry him, his family could cause problems, as they wouldn't want an ordinary girl for their precious son. In any case, there was no talk of danger.