S02.E03: I’ve Seen the Other Side of You

[formerlyfreedom]

The neural link triggers a dangerous glitch and the crew start to turn against each other while hiding out in empty space in an effort to lose the GA.

 

[ottoDbusdriver]

I never noticed last season but to borrow a phrase from George Costanza from 'Seinfeld', Five seems more ... bosomy ... in her space christmas sweater this episode than she did in S1.

Did Android also have the imprint of One in her memory ?  If so, where did that go ?  Did she also have Six's imprint ?  We didn't see it pop up -- maybe Android only connected to 'active' links.

[Chaos Theory]

"I'm done playing the frightened little girl."  Five has been a Boss so far this season and I for one approve!!!!!

This episode was big on the born v bread question.  What makes us the way we are?  and do we have a say in it?  

I liked the scene where Two and Three (Names are too complicated) were discussing One and that he had taken Corso's face because Three was the main suspect for killing his wife.  "He had the chance for revenge and didn't take it."  

Does anyone else want an Android for all their moods?  

Another steller episode.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[wanderingstar]

Loved this ep!

Even though it was at first jarring to see Two, Three and Four with their old personalities, it was great to get some insight into their pre-stasis selves.

So, Arax is in contact with Evil Businesswoman. Interesting.

Five was the MVP of this ep. I'm glad she was able to talk Two down from the neural link with the ship.

While Two, Three and Four have chosen not to reclaim their old memories, I'm guessing that will come up again later in the season. And I'm fascinated by the question of who they'll be once they access those memories.

I miss Six.

[sjohnson]

Didn't actually see that much difference between the 1.0 versions of Boone and Tetsuda and their recent selves. Portia Lin is distinctly different from Two, though. Really hard to believe that they didn't do the factory restore.  

The last we see of the new band members is they're being spaced? The doctor seems to be trying to do some of Moss' soft personality. Not working for me. 

[thuganomics85]

Enjoyed seeing Two, Three, and Four revert to their former selves, although Three really was almost the same guy.  I did think Four was a bit more talkative and even grinned (evilly), at times, which was crazy to see.  Two though, is fucking stone-cold when she reverts to her old self.  I think she really might have been the most dangerous person on this crew, before they had all their memories wiped.  I did think it was weird that one of them wondered what happened to either One or Six, during this entire time.

A little bummed that we didn't actually get to see them free the new crew members, after they got their memories back.  I can just seem them all "Hey..... sorry about that, guys!", while the new folks are just all "Nice hospitality, assholes!"

Surprised that they already revealed that it is Arax who is the mole and in league with Alicia (I think that's her name.)  Makes me think that there might be something even more surprising for the other two.

Two bringing up One's death and mourning him, is probably an obvious sign that they will cross paths with Corso at some point or another.

All the troubles with Android not being able to connect to the ship just made me think it was the future version of being unable to connect to the Internet, due to spotty Wi-Fi or something.  Damn technology!

[Raja]

All you need is love

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

This episode was OK, but for the most part, it had that feeling of needing to cross off another sci-fi trope with this episode, the one where everyone is stuck in a confined space (a ship) and most everyone goes crazy but for one, or couple of people, and its up to them to put everyone else back right.  Just like the 'space zombies' ep last season.  Other than the very end - setting up next week's drama - what happened that moved the actual plot along, aside from finding out that Arax is in cahoots with the woman who's after Five/Emily?  I'm drawing blanks.

Can't believe I'm going to say this, but I was kinda missing One tonight.  Seems I'm the only person too, since none of the memory-changed crew wondered where One/Corso or Six/Jones were in the time they were dealing with Five & the prison crew.  I do have a theory on that though... maybe they weren't missing One & Six because they hadn't joined the crew yet?  They did say there was a 14-month gap there.

Call me crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me if both Nyx & Dr WorkDetail are both 'good', and its just Arax who is bad, or at least shady and double-dealing.

[Kuther2000]

9 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

While Two, Three and Four have chosen not to reclaim their old memories, I'm guessing that will come up again later in the season. And I'm fascinated by the question of who they'll be once they access those memories.

I was wondering about that. I still kind of don't understand what happened at the end. Do 2,3,4 still have their old pre-stasis memories and personalities or did the Android get rid of those when she woke up they are back to being memory wiped 2,3, and 4?

[Raja]

23 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

I was wondering about that. I still kind of don't understand what happened at the end. Do 2,3,4 still have their old pre-stasis memories and personalities or did the Android get rid of those when she woke up they are back to being memory wiped 2,3, and 4?

I think they said all those memories are still there but somehow being blocked from coming up to their consciousness. The Android would be able to do some sort of procedure to bring them up but then they would no longer be Two, Three and Four as the base personalities would take over.

[Kuther2000]

4 minutes ago, Raja said:

I think they said all those memories are still there but somehow being blocked from coming up to their consciousness. The Android would be able to do some sort of procedure to bring them up but then they would no longer be Two, Three and Four as the base personalities would take over.

So when the Android woke up, did there newer memories come back again.

[FurryFury]

I'm really disappointed the writers were too lazy to invent actual personalities for pre-wipe characters and different dynamics between them. I had high hopes for the episode initially, but it didn't turn out the way I wanted it to. And Five in Two's memory REALLY reminded me of Angel s4 when Faith was in Angelus' memories. Only it was a 1000 times more awesome.

Arax being revealed as a mole feels like a red herring. It's possible there's more than one.

[FormerMod-a1]

I can't believe none of them wanted their old memories back.  I can't imagine not knowing the majority of my life and being OK with that.  Plus, they know that with their history they have a lot of folks after them, and even excluding those not actively going after them still have a lot of enemies.  But without their memories they are apparently OK being blindsided by them all since they don't remember them.  They literally won't know an enemy even if they literally slap them in the face.  That's just stupid.  And I think it's BS that they'd revert back to their old selves.  They only did that here because they didn't have the recent memories, but if they keep these memories and restore the old it would be different.  The might not be who they are now, but they definitely wouldn't be who they were then either.  I think at least one of them should have taken the memory fix.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

or did the Android get rid of those when she woke up they are back to being memory wiped 2,3, and 4?

This was a part I wish the writers had fleshed out more. I inferred that once the Android came back online, she was able to revert Two, Three and Four to their post-stasis memories (i.e., the Two, Three and Four we've known since episode 1). Per Five's explanation, the pre-stasis memories are still there, but due to the memory wipe, they're not accessible.

But yeah, this is one of those times I am hand-waving the intricacies of the plot so I can savor the bigger themes they're addressing.

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

They only did that here because they didn't have the recent memories, but if they keep these memories and restore the old it would be different.  The might be who they are now, but they definitely wouldn't be who they were then either.  I think at least one of them should have taken the memory fix.

It's a fascinating question, how much more weight old memories, which make up the majority of their lives, would have versus new memories of a very short slice of their lives. I agree with you that they wouldn't be exactly who they were before, but they could well tilt much further to their old selves than their new selves. I have no doubt that the show will do the memory fix for at least one, if not all, of the characters at some point in future. But I understand why at this point in time none of them chose to do it. Two has the most dangerous abilities of anyone thanks to her nanites, she's practically invincible, so naturally she's very cautious about taking the risk that she might unleash the old Two on the universe. Four is someone who wants to think through all the angles, so for him, I don't think it's so much that he decided "never" as he felt that he doesn't want to make a snap decision about something so important. Three, however, is the least dangerous of the three (ha) and the likeliest to just rush into whatever, so of course at first he was all "Yes, let's do it!" But he's also something of a follower at heart - Two and Four not being onboard immediately would be enough to head him off. And as far as the show goes, it's too early for a memory fix. There's a lot of other stuff going on at the minute, plus Six is still inactive at this time and he really needs to be here for that story.

Going back to the question of who they'll be when they get their old memories back, I think it's important to note that it was the Android who was so certain that they'll just be their past selves again. The Android is an android; she's sentient, but not in a human way. I think she was reasoning from what would most likely be the effect on her, which would probably be the old code taking over after being laid on top of the new code, rather than the codes meshing together. She doesn't fully understand how human psychology works. Five, being human, is better able to understand, but given her encounters with the old selves of the crew both in the past and in this episode, I can't blame her for being less than thrilled with the idea of taking a chance. The old selves of the crew are not her family, the new selves are. She likes Two, Three and Four the way they are. (Plus Two is the most important to her out of the three of them and old Two is the scariest.) It's not her call to make, it's theirs, but I get why she's on the side of the status quo.

I think eventually Four will decide to take the memory fix, and Three will do it along with him. Two I don't see ever choosing the memory fix, but she'll probably end up having it forced on her somehow. Since another poster made a Buffy reference upthread, I'll make one of my own and say that I see old Two as sort of the Angelus of this show.

One thing I absolutely loved about this episode is that we saw the old selves of all of the crew that's still around/currently active, not just Two, Three, and Four. The Android backup really made me realize how much the Android has changed, because that backup wasn't the least bit kind, didn't go out of her way to help, and sure didn't give a shit about anyone. And we got a bit of the old Five (notice she wasn't wearing the same clothes for that scene) when she was beating Two. We even got a second past version of Two! I was shocked seeing Two cry and cringe - no wonder the sight of that snapped Five back to herself.

[sjohnson]

3 hours ago, Kuther2000 said:

I was wondering about that. I still kind of don't understand what happened at the end. Do 2,3,4 still have their old pre-stasis memories and personalities or did the Android get rid of those when she woke up they are back to being memory wiped 2,3, and 4?

It was the neural link (through Portia Lin's nannites,) that gave them the old memories, the ones copied by the computer. When the link was broken, their access to the memory copies was broken. The procedure would in effect download the copy to themselves, instead of running it by wifi, like an app. 

2 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I can't believe none of them wanted their old memories back.  I can't imagine not knowing the majority of my life and being OK with that.  Plus, they know that with their history they have a lot of folks after them, and even excluding those not actively going after them still have a lot of enemies.  But without their memories they are apparently OK being blindsided by them all since they don't remember them.  They literally won't know an enemy even if they literally slap them in the face.  That's just stupid.  And I think it's BS that they'd revert back to their old selves.  They only did that here because they didn't have the recent memories, but if they keep these memories and restore the old it would be different.  The might not be who they are now, but they definitely wouldn't be who they were then either.  I think at least one of them should have taken the memory fix.

Well, I doubt remembering fourteen months of confusion would have nearly the same impact as a whole lifetime before. So no I don't think it's BS that they'd revert. But like you I really didn't believe they wouldn't opt for the memories. Especially without One to make a case that they've got a chance to remake themselves better. I'm afraid that ditching the character with the most different viewpoint really is a bad, bad choice for the drama. Even if he wasn't bad boy enough to be sexy.

[DEM]

Those were exactly my thoughts, aquarian1.  I would have liked especially to see Two struggling between pragmatism (and the need to keep the crew safe and successful) and her desire not to be (fear of?) her old self. Instead we got yet another story resolved by the power of Kill-Them-All-Five's plaintive platitudes.  But perhaps this will be a season-long thread?

I'm also still confused about the show's internal psychology -- specifically personality vs. memory and how they relate to one another.  This episode seemed to suggest that they are both the same thing and different things. It's the central question of the show, but I also find it the show's greatest conundrum.

iRarelyWatchTV, I think you're right that One and Six wouldn't have joined the crew yet.  My memory is hazy on this (heh), but I think it was implied or stated last season that Corso joined up with them for a specific mission, which is why One was able to infiltrate without raising suspicion.

Edited July 16, 2016 by DEM

[Black Knight]

32 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Especially without One to make a case that they've got a chance to remake themselves better. I'm afraid that ditching the character with the most different viewpoint really is a bad, bad choice for the drama. Even if he wasn't bad boy enough to be sexy.

We have Six for that viewpoint, and Roger Cross knows how to play it in an appealing way without having to be a bad boy. MB was just lost.

There is one additional factor with the memory fix decision that I forgot to mention before: There is an ethical/moral issue involved in choosing to do it now rather than waiting a little until things settle down, everyone has had time to really think about it, etc. That ethical/moral issue is the three strangers currently onboard the ship. Taking the memory fix when just themselves and Five are around is one thing; Five should still be at least safe due to their post-stasis memories. But the strangers? Present Two, Three, Four don't even trust those strangers now, allowing them only limited access and no weapons (which they're completely correct in doing); past Two, Three, and Four tried to kill them and planned to sell them into slavery. I really have no feeling that the three new people would be safe with meshed versions of past/present Two, Three, and Four. Without the same affection/bonding memories that they have with Five, the three of them could easily decide it's not worth it to give the strangers a chance. Two promised them that they had nothing to fear from the crew; she turned out to be wrong, but at least she wasn't intentionally lying, and technically you can say she was correct, in that they didn't have anything to fear from the present selves. But if she, Three and Four were to decide to try out the memory fix with the three new people still onboard? I'd consider that pretty fucking irresponsible and an intentional violation of Two's assurance to them that they have nothing to fear.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Black Knight

[Shanna Marie]

I guess what they were trying to show was that whatever traumas that happened to them that they remember when they have their original memories was responsible for them turning out to be so awful. So, the memory wipe essentially reset them to factory settings, without the damage that caused the personality issues? But not everyone responds to trauma by becoming a psychopath, so if they already have the personality prone to that, would they have become good people with a reboot, or would they have responded badly to the stuff that happened this time around, too? I can see how they'd be different with memories of different experiences, but would they be essentially totally different people?

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

I'm afraid that ditching the character with the most different viewpoint really is a bad, bad choice for the drama. Even if he wasn't bad boy enough to be sexy.

I'm inclined to agree. I kept thinking that it would have been really interesting to see what a reset would have done to him. He kept arguing for doing the right thing even when he believed himself to be Corso the killer. What would this reset have done? Would he have become a useless corporate type, freaked out about being in this situation? Would he have gone after Three? Or would he have reacted the way he did without his memories? It wasn't so much the "nice person" aspect of his character that added a different viewpoint as it was the guy who was way out of his league and way out of his comfort zone. Six may be a good-guy cop, but at least he's got training and experience and is used to tough stuff. Five is a bit of an innocent, but has lived much of her life on her own, struggling to survive. One was the guy completely out of his comfort zone and figuring it all out. In things like this, his response would have been drastically different.

[sjohnson]

45 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

We have Six for that viewpoint, and Roger Cross knows how to play it in an appealing way without having to be a bad boy. MB was just lost.

When Varrick learned the General blew up the station, he threw a tantrum and murdered all his companions. As I remember, they didn't have any more responsibility than he did. And he was their companion and coworker just like he was fellow crew on Raza. When he found out the GA was going to let the crew of the Raza be murdered for convenience, he murdered his close friend, the one man who told him the truth without reservation or even prompting. You can say "Kal Varrick, empathetic person who can exercise a different moral viewpoint. But that's a really, really hard sell for me.

[MissLucas]

There was a lot going on in this episode, phew! I think first rule of the Raza should be: never ever let the Android go off-line again. Whenever she's out of commission a s***load of bad stuff happens.

It looked to me as if they've got the in-between memories back. When Two told Three that the necklace had belonged to Sara he did not ask 'Who's Sara'. So he does remember her and what happened to her.

The Android was active before the mission to Ellara 6, Two and Three mentione that she already had some personality quirks back then. Interesting. I wonder if they got worse and that was when they decided to stash her away.

One and Six must not have been on board back then. We knew One joined the crew for the job on the mining colony and he had not been around before. Looks as if Six was also not part of the crew before Ellara 6.

We also got an insight into Two's past. I had assumed that she had escaped the lab where she had been created probably shortly after her creation. But it looks as if she has spent quite some time in the 'dark place' whatever that was. Since I always found the glimpses of Two's pre memory-wipe personality a bit extreme I'm glad we got some more info on her past. And Melissa O'Neil was great as vulnerable and scared Two.

And while that was all pretty awesome I'm struggling with some of the plot details. Why exactly did Two, Three and Four upload those brain scans in the first place?

Quote

We were planning our mission to Ellara Six.
The only way in was to use The Android to penetrate the bio-field.
Exactly.
There was a chance that The Android could become compromised, so each of us uploaded a brain scan to the computer to give it a pattern to recognize and possibly link with.

Come again?

I love how relentless the show this season ties its plots to the back-history of these characters even though they can't remember that history. The folks being all excited about Three switching on that beacon (really dude!) don't look as if they will just drop by for a chat and a cup of tea. And then there's Renaud who was contacted by Arax. (I doubt the three new crew-members were spaced. There probably was no time left showing them and the fall-out from what had happened.)

Not sure what to think about the decision to keep the memories untouched for the time being. From a narrative perspective it makes sense but not so much from a psychological one. But since I don't watch this show for psychological drama I'm willing to play along.

Edited July 16, 2016 by MissLucas

[zxy556575]

Aside from being born a sociopath,* becoming a murdering mercenary wouldn't seem to be an appealing career path, but once a person has broken laws it may seem like there's no way out but to continue and even escalate. Given the opportunity to reset, I think the original, non-lawbreaking personality would naturally come to the fore, as it did for Two, Three and Four.

We know the inciting incident that sent Four down this path and can assume that Two's history in the lab had a lot to do with her deciding to hell with the world. Three's past remains unclear, but I didn't find it odd than none of them immediately wanted their original memories back since they didn't like who they'd been (again, with Three being the wild card). Whether or not that was the smartest or most pragmatic decision is open for debate.

Five seemed to be making her decision based solely on adolescent feelings and her current emotional ties to the crew, because what harm would it do her to remember? Except she's the one who wiped the crew to start with ... ah, more levels and puzzles.

 

* If that is even possible, which is a nature-vs-nuture theme the show continues to explore.

Edited July 17, 2016 by lordonia

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Did Android also have the imprint of One in her memory ?  If so, where did that go ?  Did she also have Six's imprint ?  We didn't see it pop up -- maybe Android only connected to 'active' links.

14 months ago, One certainly wasn't on board (Corso was supposed to join only shortly before S1 started, which was far less than 14 months ago). I suppose that 6's infiltration of the crew had yet to start, as well.

16 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Enjoyed seeing Two, Three, and Four revert to their former selves, although Three really was almost the same guy.  I did think Four was a bit more talkative and even grinned (evilly), at times, which was crazy to see.  Two though, is fucking stone-cold when she reverts to her old self.  I think she really might have been the most dangerous person on this crew, before they had all their memories wiped.  I did think it was weird that one of them wondered what happened to either One or Six, during this entire time.

A little bummed that we didn't actually get to see them free the new crew members, after they got their memories back.  I can just seem them all "Hey..... sorry about that, guys!", while the new folks are just all "Nice hospitality, assholes!"

Surprised that they already revealed that it is Arax who is the mole and in league with Alicia (I think that's her name.)  Makes me think that there might be something even more surprising for the other two.

Two bringing up One's death and mourning him, is probably an obvious sign that they will cross paths with Corso at some point or another.

All the troubles with Android not being able to connect to the ship just made me think it was the future version of being unable to connect to the Internet, due to spotty Wi-Fi or something.  Damn technology!

Two with her present personality is also the most dangerous person on the crew - allthough 4's ambitions are higher (he does have the taking the throne of Zairon thing going on) and he is quicker to kill, the show has never left any doubt that Two is the most formidable person of the crew, before and after mindwipe.

Since Alicia Reynaud talked about "our asset" (singular), it looks like Arax is it (Nyx and Devon may be fine, upstanding criminals like the post-memory wipe of the Raza guys - allthough I still wonder about Nyx and her capabilities and immediate interest in Two). It makes sense: Arax suddenly changed his mind in prison, undoubtedly because his patrons gave him new orders.

I was strangely touched by Two mourning One (and regretting her actions the last time she saw him), didn't think we would see that scene. Either her or three will off Corso (and/or his employer), I guess.

The Android was tampered with in the prison; that there is damage was expected (the Android said as much when the GA tech first brought up he was going to extract info forcefully). I love how little lines like that one, and the "no neural link" comment from the end of S2, end up having serious consequences. Plots tend to be setup well.

15 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

This episode was OK, but for the most part, it had that feeling of needing to cross off another sci-fi trope with this episode, the one where everyone is stuck in a confined space (a ship) and most everyone goes crazy but for one, or couple of people, and its up to them to put everyone else back right.  Just like the 'space zombies' ep last season.  Other than the very end - setting up next week's drama - what happened that moved the actual plot along, aside from finding out that Arax is in cahoots with the woman who's after Five/Emily?  I'm drawing blanks.

Quite some things happened, but apart from finding out Arax is the 'asset' and finding out a bit more about Two's backstory/history, the convo between Two and Three about being done with being on the strings of the companies will probably have ramifications for the future plots. And the option to restore the memory backup from 14 months ago will come back as well, I suppose.

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

It looked to me as if they've got the in-between memories back. When Two told Three that the necklace had belonged to Sara he did not ask 'Who's Sara'. So he does remember her and what happened to her.

The Android was active before the mission to Ellara 6, Two and Three mentione that she already had some personality quirks back then. Interesting. I wonder if they got worse and that was when they decided to stash her away.

And while that was all pretty awesome I'm struggling with some of the plot details. Why exactly did Two, Three and Four upload those brain scans in the first place?

I love how relentless the show this season ties its plots to the back-history of these characters even though they can't remember that history. The folks being all excited about Three switching on that beacon (really dude!) don't look as if they will just drop by for a chat and a cup of tea. And then there's Renaud who was contacted by Arax. (I doubt the three new crew-members were spaced. There probably was no time left showing them and the fall-out from what had happened.)

 

 

The memories from the point of the memory wipe were restored. The memories from a year earlier are waiting to be recalled to the plot.

We did learn that the Android has been part of the crew/Raza for many months before S1. If she had glichtes, it may explain why she was in a box in the pilot episode. Possibly, the Android started to balk at being part of a crew of cold criminals.

Two, Three and Four uploaded the memory scans 14 months before this episode, and since not much time passed during S1 (this was mentioned in Hyperion-8, IIRC 47 days was mentioned) this should have been about a year before the start of the first episode. The Android was sent on a mission, and in case it went badly the crew intended to link to the ship themselves (apparently unaware off, or ignoring the risks involved).

 

It was a very good episode, keeping attention from start to finish. The show has been firing on all cylinders in S2, so far. It doesn't deserve the ridicule that sometimes gets heaped on it in portions of the net.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Wouter

[MissLucas]

9 minutes ago, Wouter said:

 The Android was sent on a mission, and in case it went badly the crew intended to link to the ship themselves (apparently unaware off, or ignoring the risks involved).
 

Aha, that makes sense (kinda) - I couldn't figure out from the dialogue why they did what they did. Thanks!

[Wouter]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Aha, that makes sense (kinda) - I couldn't figure out from the dialogue why they did what they did. Thanks!

You're welcome. The dialogue went by quickly, I had to hear it a second time to notice that they planned to link with the computers themselves, if the Android was "compromised".

Allthough that is very dangerous, especially for Three and Four, but maybe the Android neglected to tell them.

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess what they were trying to show was that whatever traumas that happened to them that they remember when they have their original memories was responsible for them turning out to be so awful. So, the memory wipe essentially reset them to factory settings, without the damage that caused the personality issues? But not everyone responds to trauma by becoming a psychopath, so if they already have the personality prone to that, would they have become good people with a reboot, or would they have responded badly to the stuff that happened this time around, too? I can see how they'd be different with memories of different experiences, but would they be essentially totally different people?

I'm inclined to agree. I kept thinking that it would have been really interesting to see what a reset would have done to him. He kept arguing for doing the right thing even when he believed himself to be Corso the killer. What would this reset have done? Would he have become a useless corporate type, freaked out about being in this situation? Would he have gone after Three? Or would he have reacted the way he did without his memories? It wasn't so much the "nice person" aspect of his character that added a different viewpoint as it was the guy who was way out of his league and way out of his comfort zone. Six may be a good-guy cop, but at least he's got training and experience and is used to tough stuff. Five is a bit of an innocent, but has lived much of her life on her own, struggling to survive. One was the guy completely out of his comfort zone and figuring it all out. In things like this, his response would have been drastically different.

I think this is why past Three and present Three don't seem that different. It wouldn't make sense if the answer to nature-vs.nurture was the same for all of them, because that's not how it works in real life: Some people are clearly way more shaped by things that happen to them than others are. When they came out of stasis, Three was the big asshole of the crew, but we've learned that he's not as bad as he often comes across. Past Three had Sara. One also noted in the premiere that Three's known crimes did not fit with being the murderer of One's wife. In other words...Past Three wasn't as bad as he came across, either. With him his assholish side is nature. He's the one I'd least be concerned about taking a memory fix as I don't think there's really much difference between past and present.

Four seems to have been an okay guy until he was an adult who got framed for murder and had to flee his home. Obviously he had to become hard to survive all that, but I don't think it was traumatizing per se. Grown man and all. He became colder and harder than strictly needed, but I think if he was surrounded by more decent people than he was before, people who can and are willing to find other solutions for problems, that would help. It's a little more of a risk for him to take the memory fix, I think he'd definitely become somewhat colder and harder again, but he wouldn't be original Four either. He'd be a mix.

Two, however, seems to have been consistently mistreated from a young age on, as Five noted. She has formative traumas that the others don't, likely never knew love. Those are things that are very difficult to overcome. I really do think with her there's a very severe risk to the memory fix, that she'd become who she was. And the show's kind of foreshadowed that, it seems, with Two being the one who most does not want to be her old self, and every time we get a flashback she's the worst of them all. And she's the most powerful one. I said before I think she's the Angelus. She will end up getting the memory fix at some point, but most likely not by choice, and become the Big Bad for a time until they figure out a way to shut those memories off, kill her, or somehow get through to her. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the cliffhanger for this season, Two getting her memory back. In short, Three would be fine, Four would be negotiable, Two would be a disaster.

4 hours ago, sjohnson said:

When Varrick learned the General blew up the station, he threw a tantrum and murdered all his companions. As I remember, they didn't have any more responsibility than he did. And he was their companion and coworker just like he was fellow crew on Raza. When he found out the GA was going to let the crew of the Raza be murdered for convenience, he murdered his close friend, the one man who told him the truth without reservation or even prompting. You can say "Kal Varrick, empathetic person who can exercise a different moral viewpoint. But that's a really, really hard sell for me.

The first was pretty awful. I would point out that although it was expressed in a really wrong way, it came out of moral outrage at what had happened, and I think in the moment he did see the others as being responsible, as being collaborators who were okay with what happened and would go on working with the General to commit more such atrocities. As for the escape in the last episode, I don't consider that murder. They had guns on each other and the other guy was going to fire to stop the crew from escaping - which is not exactly a moral thing to do considering that he knew that the crew would be murdered if they stayed. He knew the people he worked for were shit and instead of resisting he was an enabler, a collaborator. He had a chance to stand against that by letting the crew escape, but nope. He wanted to keep them in prison so they'd be murdered, and was willing to shoot his friend to boot. Six just got the drop on him first. I don't see it as moral for Six to stand by and let the crew be recaptured so they'd all be murdered.

But okay. We can certainly agree that Six has done terrible things. But I think it's also true that even those things sprang out of a sense of morality, out of a concern with right vs. wrong, and he clearly has a conscience and has been shown feeling awful about the things he has done. He was concerned throughout S1 about right vs. wrong and reliably aligned with One when those dilemmas arose. So I think he still works as a person to speak up for that point of view, and Roger Cross is an actor talented enough to juggle all the layers of Six's varied actions vs. his basic instincts and desire to be a good person. But we also have the addition of Shaun Sipos's character, who so far seems to be a nice guy, and SS is again more appealing and better at playing the nice guy than MB. So there are at least two ways for that viewpoint to go on being expressed. MB was a bad casting choice, at least as One (I think he's okay as Jace Corso, a character which suits his specific, limited acting range better, and I think there would be some interesting storyline possibilities with Jace), and if One stays dead, I really will respect the show tremendously for realizing its mistake and dropping One instead of having him around as an albatross for the rest of the run. So many times I see shows feel like they can't course-correct, sticking with something or someone they know is not working. The One-like viewpoint is needed among the other viewpoints, I agree, but it doesn't need to come from One.

On another subject, Two and Three's discussion about what to do about One's murder points to interesting future storyline possibilities. Two kind of reminded me of Daenerys Targaryen last season on GoT, her lines to Tyrion about how the wheel (of power) keeps turning from one house/family to another, and what she wants to do is break the wheel. Two appears to want to do much the same; instead of picking one awful corporation to work with that finds them useful enough not to kill, just end the corporations altogether because they're all awful. (So, for how Two ends up getting the memory fix, I'm going to place my bet on one of the corporations doing it. Past Two was willing to work for them, unlike Present Two. If she basically can't be killed, and keeping her imprisoned is also very difficult, then from the corporations' point of view the best way to solve the problem of Two being out to destroy them is to bring Past Two back.)

[sjohnson]

Everybody does see things differently, especially performances. To my eyes, Marc Ben David's performance as Jace Corso was lifeless. And Shaun Sipos comes across as if he's trying to hit on women by pretending to be a nice guy. He has no real personality I can discern as of yet.  

The guard who refused to unleash the Raza crew on the galaxy knew what they were really like, not their amnesiac versions. The refusal to restore their memories was unbelievable to me personally, but I can sure see how the show wouldn't want to have Portia Lin running around playing supervillain. And for me, although I'm apparently alone in that, anyone who really wants to kill his way to a throne is a committed villain. Dead kings are the foundation of a better state, and dead pretenders to the throne are equally desirable. This crew already killed all those people in that research facility. And one thing the friend doesn't really know is whether his buddy with the piss poor judgment is really right about how the Raza crew isn't going on to bigger and better than that.

[CletusMusashi]

Am I the only one who literally has no idea how they lost their memories this week in the first place? Didn't they have to be in stasis chambers last time? Now apparently the computer can just randomly give you a remote-control personality makeover whenever it has a "glitch." I guess a malfunctioning holodeck was too expensive.

I feel it would be impossible for me to recap this episode without using "blah blah blah" and "yadda yadda" whenever trying to explain cause and effect. Robot was in self-repair mode, so the computer looked for... a thingy... so, blah blah blah, half the cast passed out and lost their memories. Turns out that Two had a neural link somehow, so yadda yadda Three and Four got rebooted too, because why not? And apparently when Four is evil he doesn't like to chop people up with swords nearly as much as when he's a good guy.

As far as whether or not they should take the old memories back, I'd say it's a no-brainer. The computer is just gonna turn you evil again anyway the next time the writers need a filler episode, so you might as well start mixing the bad with the good so you don't later get stuck with nothing but the bad.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Am I the only one who literally has no idea how they lost their memories this week in the first place? Didn't they have to be in stasis chambers last time? Now apparently the computer can just randomly give you a remote-control personality makeover whenever it has a "glitch." I guess a malfunctioning holodeck was too expensive.

I feel it would be impossible for me to recap this episode without using "blah blah blah" and "yadda yadda" whenever trying to explain cause and effect. Robot was in self-repair mode, so the computer looked for... a thingy... so, blah blah blah, half the cast passed out and lost their memories. Turns out that Two had a neural link somehow, so yadda yadda Three and Four got rebooted too, because why not? And apparently when Four is evil he doesn't like to chop people up with swords nearly as much as when he's a good guy.

As far as whether or not they should take the old memories back, I'd say it's a no-brainer. The computer is just gonna turn you evil again anyway the next time the writers need a filler episode, so you might as well start mixing the bad with the good so you don't later get stuck with nothing but the bad.

Very good points, CletusMusashi.

I mean, what, is there like some kind of wireless router connection between the crew's brains and the ship's computer now?  Did the Android's damaged neural link to the ship activate the crew's "link" to it??  *scratches head*

I know, right?

Yeah, as long as the old memories don't over-write the newer ones and just co-exist, they should welcome their old ones back.  Like someone pointed out above, just to remember enemies to look out for.  Seems like a no-brainer (heh!).

Edited July 17, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[zxy556575]

These people never change their clothes but I sincerely hope I'm not going to have to look at Five's ugly Fair Isle sweater the whole season.

If I was following correctly, the ship's computer was trying to reboot Android's neural link. While running diagnostics, it identified the backup neural imprints for 2, 3, and 4 in the medical database, which it (somehow) automatically reinstalled and which effectively reset the crew to the day 14 months earlier when they had uploaded them as a precaution. But why didn't anyone find those imprints when they originally came out of stasis and were looking for anything to tell them who they were?

Edited July 17, 2016 by lordonia

[MissLucas]

The show sure went into tech gobbledygook overdrive with this episode. I think the writers simply wanted to remind the audience who those characters used to be, how far they've come during last season and what's at stake if they should ever go 'screw redemption this is who we are'. It was this season's weakest outing so far but I still enjoyed it since it provided a couple of interesting details about the crew pre memory wipe and it didn't drop some of the main plots like Reynaud chasing the Raza for whatever reason.

[FurryFury]

9 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Two, however, seems to have been consistently mistreated from a young age on, as Five noted. She has formative traumas that the others don't, likely never knew love. Those are things that are very difficult to overcome. I really do think with her there's a very severe risk to the memory fix, that she'd become who she was. And the show's kind of foreshadowed that, it seems, with Two being the one who most does not want to be her old self, and every time we get a flashback she's the worst of them all. And she's the most powerful one. I said before I think she's the Angelus. She will end up getting the memory fix at some point, but most likely not by choice, and become the Big Bad for a time until they figure out a way to shut those memories off, kill her, or somehow get through to her. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the cliffhanger for this season, Two getting her memory back. In short, Three would be fine, Four would be negotiable, Two would be a disaster.

Hmm, I like your idea. And Five and Three are her major relationships (plus One if he ever comes back which I still hope not, the show's MUCH better without him), so there would be loads of angst. I do think they should define her relationship with Four as well because it's kinda unclear (although it's the same for Four and other team members).

[sjohnson]

If nannites were really a thing, they would be bacteria-sized robots, replicating something like bacteria, aiming at different targets (functions) like bacteria. And like bacteria they would escape the host body. Nobody in close contact would long escape picking up a few nannites, but being able to support a large population that can do interesting things like Two's colony is another matter. Two's nannites can serve as a full neural link to the ship's computer, a broadband connection. I kind of thought the idea was the few nannites picked up by Boone and Tetsuda were still in wifi contact with the rest. They could share the neural link with Two. At first I thought the memories were stored in the computer itself. But now I realize the dialogue explicitly says the memories are in fact in the brains. The computer's search for links connected the memories previously blocked. Like I thought before, the computer was acting as an app, a memory recovery app (not a data bank as I thought.) And the projected restore has to do with making the connection permanent instead of something the computer is doing. 

Years ago I thought self-replicating nanotechnology would have the problem of the microscopic units escaping and uncontrollably proliferating, causing immense, theoretically unlimited damage. I found out later that the nickname for this is the "gray goo" problem. So it never seemed odd to me that the others would have a connection to Two. 

Objections that not taking the memories back is kind of unbelievable, those I have absolutely no arguments against. 

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Very good points, CletusMusashi.

I mean, what, is there like some kind of wireless router connection between the crew's brains and the ship's computer now?  Did the Android's damaged neural link to the ship activate the crew's "link" to it??  *scratches head*

The idea that brain waves can/could be used to command machines/computers is a fairly common SF idea; and if this is accepted as a not-too-outlandish idea, having a signal go in the other direction isn't much of a stretch.

When the Android was damaged, she told the ships computers to search for an active link. The computers didn't find any, and then went on to execute a failsafe program that was installed 14 months ago (by the core crew, as a precaution against the loss of the Android in a risky operation), going by the brainscans that were made at that time. The computer searched for (and found) those 3 brains, and attempted to form a link with all three of them, leading to the blinding headaches, but only Two could endure it. 

But Dark Matter is obviously not meant to be "hard" SF; the fictional technology merely serves to define the setting and enable plots and consequences that cannot be used in fiction that adheres strictly to known technology.

[tennisgurl]

Dark Matter is very much not "hard" SF, so I can just go with it, as long as the characters and stories are interesting. Their science tends to be more of the "science is basically magic and can do whatever will drive the plot" variety of SF, and I am alright with that. 

I liked seeing the earlier versions of Two, Three, and Four, and I did see some differences in all of them. The most obvious change is in Two, who goes from hero to heartless, and I thought she did a great job at showing how different that person is to Two. I really get why she, above everyone else, wants to go by Two. Three is the one who seemingly changed the least. He was more like the annoying asshole he was in early season one, not the more charming jerk with a heart of gold he is now. Four is more chatty in his earlier version, and seemed to be, interestingly, a little less stoic than he becomes after becoming Four. I do wish we had seen Six as his earlier cop self. I hope the actor gets less busy being in every show shot in Canada soon. 

I do wish we had seen Two, Three, and Four debate whether or not they wanted to keep their own memories, but I can understand why they made the choice they did. While they might still be the more decent versions of themselves they are now, it would be more difficult with their old personalities coming out.

Overall, less dramatic than the last few episodes, but a solid episode. Next week looks really interesting. 

[zxy556575]

The writers did pass up the opportunity to have the reset reveal a heretofore unknown romantic/sexual pairing. Which could only be Two/Four at this point,* but that would have added an interesting dynamic.

 

 

*Given that the crew all seem to be heterosexual, which I don't think is something that could be "forgotten."

Edited July 17, 2016 by lordonia

[MissLucas]

I actually wondered if there were not hints of that - they certainly had some interesting interactions during this episode. Plus we know those two plotted to 'get rid of him' on Five's surveillance tape with nobody else around.

[atomationage]

I thought this episode was terrible, and the preview for the next one also looks terrible.   Hopefully, episode 5 will be better.  I don't even understand what happened.  At first, I thought the beginning was a flashback to when Five was first found on the Raza, but I guess it was a preview of what was happening later in the episode.  The newbies are boring, the two males played by lackluster actors.  I was hoping they would get spaced.  The wild swing between the two "personalities" of Two is pretty ridiculous.  Three is not a compelling character to me. This may be something about the actor.   He was scheduled to be in 7 episodes of the 2nd season of 19-2, but he wasn't, although credited.  In one episode, his character's partner on the show says that he was glad about that.  Four has actually improved.  His alt character is actually more interesting.  Five is being written poorly IMO, and her wardrobe is ridiculous.  Having two personalities for the Android is another mess, or was that just in the last episode.   I'm glad I never deleted the first season.   This was a good show, and they've screwed it up.

[Wouter]

I think 3's actor has great charisma in the role, both in S1 and in S2 so far. YMMV.

Preview for the next episode looks fine to me, with the apparent storylines being a logical continuation of what happened or was setup before. I'm looking forward to it.

[tessaray]

Last year I loved Dark Matter and Killjoys ended up falling by the wayside.  This year it looks like that might end up reversed, as I'm liking Killjoys and am confused and bored by the mess that this season is for DM.  (So far.) If there is a plan, I'm not seeing it. Of course, my favorite character interaction is Five/Six and the Android with everyone so that didn't help.

The only thing I liked was Three/Boone's consistent feelings for Sarah. And I am a tiny, tiny bit curious about the transponder thingy that Three accidentally activated.     

[FurryFury]

It's the opposite for me, I'm losing interest in Killjoys because of the inane romances taking over the show (IMO), while I see a marked improvement with Dark Matter.

Edited July 18, 2016 by FurryFury

[atomationage]

20 hours ago, lordonia said:

 

*Given that the crew all seem to be heterosexual, which I don't think is something that could be "forgotten."

Funnily, in the episode last year where One and Four go to "Transfer Transit"? to help Six, Four says that he and One are a couple in order to get a discount.  

[Wouter]

Four is very cold and efficient. If it gets him a discount, he will say whatever is required!

[Dave]

I'm surprised none of you have brought this up...  this clearly leaves a full path for them to capture the original character that 'one' based his looks/physique on, wipe his mind, and implant 'one'"s memory. One will be reuniting with all of you within 2 episodes I predict.  

[steelyis]

I'm glad Two, Three, and Four opted not to restore their old memories. If they had I would find it hard to keep watching the show. There are three crimes I can never forgive: mutilation, child murder, and participation in slavery. They cross too far over the moral event horizon and I won't ever like characters that commit those crimes.

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, Dave said:

I'm surprised none of you have brought this up...  this clearly leaves a full path for them to capture the original character that 'one' based his looks/physique on, wipe his mind, and implant 'one'"s memory. One will be reuniting with all of you within 2 episodes I predict.  

One (Derrick Moss) was not on board when the brain scans were made. Moreover, the memories are still in the heads of 2,3 and 4; the attempt to link by the Raza computers only allowed to access them again (for a while). So, it won't work this way to get 1 back. Though there could be other ways, I suppose.

[atomationage]

8 minutes ago, Dave said:

One will be reuniting with all of you within 2 episodes I predict.  

My prediction is that they'll kill off the real Jace Corso in episode five, and that will be the last we see of the actor.   I think the show is pretty predictable.  I knew they would somehow get their old memories back, and they did.

Edited July 18, 2016 by atomationage

[Dave]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

One (Derrick Moss) was not on board when the brain scans were made. Moreover, the memories are still in the heads of 2,3 and 4; the attempt to link by the Raza computers only allowed to access them again (for a while). So, it won't work this way to get 1 back. Though there could be other ways, I suppose.

Fair point, didn't realize that. I still think they'll find a way to get him back... 

[MissLucas]

I suppose we'll get to see more of One since the show has still not explained why he decided to join a group of mercenaries under the disguise of a ruthless killer - even as a revenge plan it's way out of character for a supposedly good guy. It was highly likely that he would be forced to commit crimes to keep his cover intact until he could exact his revenge. Also how exactly did he plan to kill Three and get away from the Raza alive?

So we'll probably get to see him in some flashback/memory trips by Five in order to explain all the open questions. But anything that relates to his backstory before the cosmetic surgery will of course feature the actor we saw as Derrick Moss in season 1.

[call me ishmael]

Actually, one of the things that made me envy 2,3, and 4 in this episode was that when they reverted to their old characters they had no memories of 1....