The White Princess - General Discussion

[nodorothyparker]

That's the thing about whole divine right of kings thing.  Once you bought wholeheartedly into that (and Margaret Beauford wasn't by any means alone in that belief), not acting to try to make it happen could be seen as going against God.   Obviously God wanted Henry to be king or he wouldn't have born with a claim.  He wouldn't have survived several attempts at assassination or capture to end up on the throne and he wouldn't have won battles to keep him there.

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, goldensglitter said:

Seriously folks, Margaret Beaufort suffocating Jasper?  A bit contrived I say.  Lets see a 100 lb woman overtaking a 200 lb seasoned soldier......I don't think so.  

At this point I expect Margaret Beufort to start uttering "I will get you my pretty" to Lizzie and then someone will throw a bucket of water on her and she starts screaming about melting.  It would be the only thing that could explain how they destroyed this character. 

Speaking of destroyed characters,  Elizabeth Woodville can go take flying leap off a tall tower.  How horrible for her to ruin poor Henry's big day like that.  Yes, I know he grows up to be a monster, but he is an innocent child right now.  Lizzie is much kinder with her mother then I would be.

Quote

That's the thing about whole divine right of kings thing.  Once you bought wholeheartedly into that (and Margaret Beauford wasn't by any means alone in that belief), not acting to try to make it happen could be seen as going against God.   Obviously God wanted Henry to be king or he wouldn't have born with a claim.  He wouldn't have survived several attempts at assassination or capture to end up on the throne and he wouldn't have won battles to keep him there.

Her process of justification for bad deeds actually did remind me a lot of Henry the VIII.  Ironically, "God" told him to form the Church of England and leave the Catholic Church.

[absolutelyido]

7 hours ago, goldensglitter said:

Seriously folks, Margaret Beaufort suffocating Jasper?  A bit contrived I say.  Lets see a 100 lb woman overtaking a 200 lb seasoned soldier......I don't think so.  

I guess I can buy it. Jasper obviously never fully recovered from his injuries in the last battle, and he was also weakened by an illness. Also, since he was lying down, she could use her fully body weight against him. It seems like she had gravity and leverage on her side.

I thought this was a good episode, but way too much time in Burgundy. The Burgundy scenes have rather bored me from the beginning. I'd rather have seen more of Lizzie and Henry. Based upon the ages of the children, they would have lost their daughter Elizabeth by this time at about the age of 3. I would have liked to have seen them deal with the aftermath of that, or at least mention it. I was sure when Lizzie and Maggie were catching-up Maggie would say she was so sorry that they had lost Elizabeth, but there was no mention.

Edited May 15, 2017 by absolutelyido

[iMonrey]

I think they might have crossed the line here in taking artistic liberties with historical fact. It also feels more and more like this show should be called "Lady Margaret Stanley and the Dowager Queen Elizabeth." Lizzie and Henry feel more like supporting characters. All they tend to do is react to the things their mothers do. 

And no, I can't buy Margaret smothering Jasper with a pillow. For one thing it's the most unrealistic and overused cliche in Hollywood. For another, it just takes way too many liberties with historical fact. 

[MrsE]

The problem is of course that the odd pretender notwithstanding, Henry's reign and his relationship with his queen was fairly uneventful.  I don't suppose many people would be ever so interested in the fact that he invested heavily in the development of new technology for water mills, or the consolidation of the alum trade, although there was some nice sleight of hand in a few continental trade deals and of course the famously clever solution to the problem of the Earl of Kildare.

Although he did buy a lion for Elizabeth.  So there's that.

[kassa]

In addition to the strength differential (weak with illness or not), all he had to do was fake passing out/dying, then when she relaxed her grip, smack her across the room.  Come on, show!  

I will admit it was kind of funny, though, the meltdown with the blood in the bowl and all.  Someone above referred to her stomping around like Darth Vader -- to me she was a cross between a stick insect and Maleficent.

[MrsE]

Perhaps he'd seen the scripts for the remaining episodes in which Margaret strangles a basket load of kittens just for laughs, stabs Elizabeth Woodeville (who I think was already dead when little Henry was created Duke of York, but hey), and reveals herself as queen of the Lizard People, and just lost the will to live.

Edited May 16, 2017 by MrsE
grammar

[BooBear]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think they might have crossed the line here in taking artistic liberties with historical fact. It also feels more and more like this show should be called "Lady Margaret Stanley and the Dowager Queen Elizabeth." Lizzie and Henry feel more like supporting characters.

Yes, I feel like I watch this story for Lizzy and Henry and I am getting just about everyone else. I should have known by how high up in the credits the girl is who plays Maggie. For a *romance* novel there was hardly any in there. Henry and Lizzy just got together basically.   I think I am already done with this show for one reason... history. I know that Henry doesn't buy it so there isn't much else to explore is there? 

[Enero]

1 minute ago, BooBear said:

 For a *romance* novel there was hardly any in there. Henry and Lizzy just got together basically.   I think I am already done with this show ... history. I know that Henry doesn't buy it so there isn't much else to explore is there? 

So much this. I cancelled my Starz app subscription today. I kept it after Black Sails went off because the previews for this show looked great. So I thought it would be worth it to keep my subscription for this, bad choice. 

This show has been a disappointment. I was hoping to see the evolution of Henry and Lizzy's relationship and their actions as King and Queen. However, as been said, Lizzie and Henry are mere supporting players here. 

I tried to watch the latest episode and could not even make it through it because it was so dull and repetitive. I could've continued watching even with the liberties they took with history, if it was actually a good show, but unfortunately it's not. 

So I'm done too.

[NeenerNeener]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

So much this. I cancelled my Starz app subscription today. I kept it after Black Sails went off because the previews for this show looked great. So I thought it would be worth it to keep my subscription for this, bad choice. 

 

I have Starz right now for American Gods; the fact that they're running TWP too just makes me feel better about the $9 a month.

[Kata01]

The time jump left Henry and Lizzie's relationship feeling disjointed. We left them at the end Episode 4 with their first kiss, infant son, promising to make the marriage work, be happy, but not quite trusting each other. Seven  years later with 2 additions to the family, they seem happy, content, can't say "I love you" to each other, and do they trust the other (I mean, really?) because I couldn't tell for sure. Was that the point? The relationship went from A to Z without letting us know how they got there or to be honest, where they are exactly. 

Also, I noticed this was the first episode where we were not taken into the king's (or Lizzie's) chambers. A lot of their intimacy was developing in these private times and this episode was severely lacking in that. I felt I was observing the King and Queen from a distance versus spending time with Henry and Lizzie. My least favorite episode thus far.

[Moxie Cat]

21 hours ago, Glade said:

I thought it was sad that they couldn't even give young Arthur and Henry VIII the red hair that they historically had; but I guess their brunette Henry the VIII could one day grow up to look like Jonathan Rhys Myers. 

I was like, where's Henry's red hair? For some reason, Hollywood has no problem portraying Elizabeth with red hair (Tudors, Cate Blanchett, Reign) but there seems to be this notion that red-haired men are unattractive (totally untrue). I guess I should be happy we got a ginger Henry in Wolf Hall!

But seriously - given Arthur and Henry, and later Liz and Mary QoS, it would be nice to see, genetically, where the red hair came from in this family. We only saw one red-haired family member that I recall, Elizabeth de la Pole (duchess Cecily's other daughter).

And, did the ages of the three kids seem off to anyone? This was what, 1493? (About seven years after Arthur's birth, which was 1486.) So Arthur would have been about 7, Margaret 4, and Henry 2. Both boys seemed way too mature and I was asking, wait - is Margaret younger than Henry? (She wasn't.)

Gotta echo the Maleficent comparison. The two-horned headpiece Margaret sported in one of the last episodes was a ringer for her!

Edited May 16, 2017 by Moxie Cat

[Pogojoco]

Good call on the red hair. Henry VIII as a young man had famously red hair- he was described as very tall, very athletic, had auburn hair (cut in the French style) and light (fair) skin. No one has dark brown hair as a seven year old and then it turns auburn as a teenager without hair dye.

His mother (Lizzie in this) also had red gold hair, his brother Arthur had red gold hair and both his daughters got it, too.
This is all about the Tudors and their red hair, and how it became a symbol of the Tudors themselves and then of England, ultimately. 

In conclusion: shut up, show. 

I agree with all above: for something called "The White Princess", Lizzie is no longer the centre of this show. It's really strange. For something "romantic", it's odd the only "sex" scene is an adapted/adjusted rape scene from the novel. They've barely kissed and look- they have three kids! I think I see the king and queen in the middle distance! 

[vavera4ka]

22 hours ago, Glade said:

  I thought it was sad that they couldn't even give young Arthur and Henry VIII the red hair that they historically had; but I guess their brunette Henry the VIII could one day grow up to look like Jonathan Rhys Myers. 

It's funny, every time i see this promo poster I can't help but notice that there is some resemblance between Jacob Collins-Levy and Jonathan Rhys Myers. You can actually believe that they are related.

[absolutelyido]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think they might have crossed the line here in taking artistic liberties with historical fact. It also feels more and more like this show should be called "Lady Margaret Stanley and the Dowager Queen Elizabeth." Lizzie and Henry feel more like supporting characters. All they tend to do is react to the things their mothers do. 

I agree. They have spent way too much time on Margaret, Elizabeth and Margaret of Burgundy and not enough time on Lizzie and Henry's story. It feels like they have fallen into the same trap that a lot of shows do thinking that audiences don't want to see the story of a happy couple. At the end of Ep 4, Henry and Lizzie were just beginning their life truly as a couple. But we don't get to see any of that because they time jump over 7 happy years, and pick the story up again when there is tension between them. When Henry asked Lizzie if she loved him and she said that England loves him and that he is her King, but didn't say the words he obviously needed to hear, I had to roll my eyes a bit at the obvious ploy to create drama between them. 

I really do want to like this show. I think Jodie Comer and Jacob Collins-Levy are outstanding in their roles and there is a lot of chemistry between them. I'm hopeful the last 3 episodes will focus more on them. It seems like Elizabeth Woodville's story line has played itself out now that she is back in the abbey and Lizzie seems to be done with her. I can't imagine what more treachery Margaret Beaufort can commit and a lot of her scenes were with Jasper, so I'm hopeful that we see less of her. Perhaps she could confine herself to the abbey with Elizabeth as penance for killing Jasper.

Edited May 16, 2017 by absolutelyido

[iMonrey]

Quote

The problem is of course that the odd pretender notwithstanding, Henry's reign and his relationship with his queen was fairly uneventful. 

Yes and I said that from the beginning, and wondered how they would craft a whole story around them. But they could have come up with something rather than just dodge them and make a story about their mothers! I mean, if they're going to make up a fictional history, as they've obviously done with Lady Margaret and the dowager Queen, why not instead make up a fictional history for Lizzie and Henry? Why did they skip seven years? They basically just jumped past how their relationship even developed. Probably just to get to the next big battle scene. So many wrong choices for this show.

[Haleth]

On May 14, 2017 at 9:59 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I cannot get over the complete lack of originality these royals had in naming their children.  You would think there were only four names in the world - Margaret, Elizabeth, Edward, and Richard. 

Lizzie alone had a Margaret for sister, cousin, daughter, mother-in-law, grand-daughter, and two aunts. 

Cecily had an Elizabeth mother, sister, daughter, two nieces, and aunt. 

It's incredibly confusing when studying this time in history, and it had to be confusing at the time as well.  

Try reading about it.  The show dispenses with unimportant characters, but with every other page of the book I have to refer to the family tree.  Too many Elizabeths and Margarets and Henrys and Edwards!  Plus Alison Weir refers to the nobility by their titles rather than given names so I'm constantly looking at the tree to see, "now who again is Bedford?"  Or Lincoln or Warwick, etc.  So confusing!

Incidentally, I never knew lady in waiting was a paid position. Where can I apply?  

Edited May 16, 2017 by Haleth

[NYCNJbear06]

I'm not enjoying the WP as much as I enjoyed the WQ which is unfortunate.  I think the soap opera twist of Margaret smothering Jasper is a bridge too far.  In the WQ she mooned over Jasper and the sexual tension was palpable.  To go so far as to have her murder Jasper is a bridge too far for me 

[IndianPaintbrush]

So Henry and Lizzie have been married seven years, had three children together, and he still doesn't trust her? Suuuuure. An obvious ploy to keep me tuned in for the big passionate sex scene after she finally says, "I love you."  :)

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

So Henry and Lizzie have been married seven years, had three children together, and he still doesn't trust her? Suuuuure. An obvious ploy to keep me tuned in for the big passionate sex scene after she finally says, "I love you."  :)

Though that sex scene in the ad looks like it is someone else.  Have we fast forwarded from married couple to Henry's mistress? (ETA that isn't a spoiler I was just totally guessing / being sarcastic). Whatever, I missed the meat of what I thought I was watching. I don't care about the battle because, spoiler alert, I know who won and I don't know or care about Richard.   I really thought the meat of this series would be about Henry and Lizzy learning to live together as King and Queen. They white queen was much better development.  I will stick with it cause there isn't a lot else on but Starz is not long for my cable line up. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by BooBear

[Kata01]

28 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Though that sex scene in the ad looks like it is someone else.  Have we fast forwarded from married couple to Henry's mistress? Whatever, I missed the meat of what I thought I was watching. I don't care about the battle because, spoiler alert, I know who won and I don't know or care about Richard.   I really thought the meat of this series would be about Henry and Lizzy learning to live together as King and Queen. They white queen was much better development.  I will stick with it cause there isn't a lot else on but Starz is not long for my cable line up. 

Spoiler

It's her (Lizzie). The showrunner has tweeted at least twice that I know of the big sex scene for Lizzie and Henry is coming up in Ep 6. Also per production and cast the affair from the book is not happening in the show. According to the showrunner, Lizzie & Henry's love will not be questioned...he flirts with her & let's people think he is sleeping with her in order to mess with The Boy's head. She said the affair from the book is an unnecessary side plot for the show and she took it out because it doesn't work for this.

 

[absnow54]

Yes and I said that from the beginning, and wondered how they would craft a whole story around them. But they could have come up with something rather than just dodge them and make a story about their mothers! I mean, if they're going to make up a fictional history, as they've obviously done with Lady Margaret and the dowager Queen, why not instead make up a fictional history for Lizzie and Henry? Why did they skip seven years? They basically just jumped past how their relationship even developed. Probably just to get to the next big battle scene. So many wrong choices for this show.

I'm rewatching The White Queen right now, and can't remember how prominent Henry and Lizzie's story was, only that it was mostly overshadowed by the whole Richard affair, but reading Allison Weir's book, the meat of their story were those early years before Henry's conquest and through to the wedding, which only took up one episode. It's disappointing because this show did a really good job at getting me invested in their love story, then threw in a time jump so that we missed the whole thing.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I think the soap opera twist of Margaret smothering Jasper is a bridge too far.  In the WQ she mooned over Jasper and the sexual tension was palpable. 

Not to mention it's harder to believe Jasper would have been in love with Amanda Hale (who portrayed Margaret in White Queen). She was rather harsh looking, to say the least.

Still, White Princess would have been so much better if they had managed to retain the same cast. I don't know what Rebecca Ferguson had going on, but if she declined to reprise her role as Elizabeth Woodville in White Princess because she thought she'd be demoted to a supporting character she was dead wrong. The Dowager Queen has been every bit the lead player that she was in White Queen so far.

Edited May 17, 2017 by iMonrey

[BooBear]

So this one was ok. It did have some odd / unbelievable moments. The troops return to Henry because of a rousing speech Elizabeth gives them? I find that hard to believe.  Though for a long time I have wondered why Elizabeth doesn't own her role as legitimate York heir. Now that her  mother is gone perhaps she will take more of an interest. 

I was sort of surprised at the Spain situation. Can anyone comment on if that really happened?  England is still England. A powerful ally. 

Finally the sex scene. I do think they lied a little with the previews because this looked different than what they were showing. But dude.. they have been married like 8+ years and have three children.  Seemed a little anticlimactic. 

I do enjoy that they seem to be portraying Henry with more wisdom and he does seem good at battle. 

Margret Buford finally gets something to do!

[CindyBee]

Much better episode than that mess that was episode 5 as I didn't fast forward once.  The only scene that was "wtf?' was Lizzie rallying the troops to save the day as that doesn't have any historical merit  (as far as I know) but at least the scene was well acted and added to the over story being told so I'll forgive the writers.

I know some don't like Lady Margaret Beaufort but I love the character and her riding through the countryside to go get the boy was great.   And thank god the dowager Elizabeth is finally gone as that storyline had gone kaput for me.

Edited May 21, 2017 by CindyBee

[MrsE]

Of course EoY didn't address the troops - she was never anywhere near a battle.  Come to that Henry usually - and wisely - left it to his generals to sort these things out.  They also never went to Spain.

[absnow54]

This episode was so over the top, I loved it. My favorite part is the not so subtle "look at sweet little Prince Harry! Nothing could possibly go wrong with this one! Ha, ha, ha..." When Margaret told him he could be pope one day, I fell off my couch laughing.

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

I was sort of surprised at the Spain situation. Can anyone comment on if that really happened?  England is still England. A powerful ally. 

The Spain scene was just an excuse to do a location shoot. Isabella and Ferdinand were, however, concerned about Teddy Warwick and Perkin "Richard" Warbeck's claim to the throne and wouldn't send Catherine to England until they were dealt with.

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

Though for a long time I have wondered why Elizabeth doesn't own her role as legitimate York heir. Now that her  mother is gone perhaps she will take more of an interest. 

I feel like this should have been the main arc of this series. Elizabeth has been a step away from the throne her entire life, but as a woman, is never a serious contender to rule. Henry's claim was pretty weak, and he initially was going to rule through Elizabeth's claim before declaring through right of conquest. Still, Elizabeth had the strongest claim as Edward's heir, and Henry really couldn't risk her marrying anyone else (hence marrying all of her sisters and cousins to low borns so they couldn't compete with his and Elizabeth's heirs.) I would have liked to see more of her conflict in being a dutiful wife to a man that took her birth right. And now that fake-Richard is trying to take the crown from her children, I want to see her struggle, after everything she's sacrificed to preserve the York line, why can just come and take it from her because he's a man. 

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

Finally the sex scene. I do think they lied a little with the previews because this looked different than what they were showing. But dude.. they have been married like 8+ years and have three children.  Seemed a little anticlimactic. 

It felt like they realized they were six episodes in and hadn't had a gratuitous sex scene yet. This scene would have had a much bigger impact if it had occurred sometime between episode 4 and 5 when they were still trying to decide whether they liked each other or not.

Edited May 21, 2017 by absnow54

[MrsE]

It wasn't her birthright though;  the only previous attempt at having a queen regnant on the throne had ended in utter disaster.  Rule Henry out and she still wouldn't have been queen in her own right, a male York (Lincoln was named RIII's heir I think) would have been king. So if both Richard and Henry had died at Bosworth Lincoln would have been on the throne, not Elizabeth.

[absnow54]

True, and even if she was named heiress, her husband would rule in her name. My modern sensibility just wants to see her be mad about constantly being passed over because she's a woman, I guess, even though there's no historical support for it. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by absnow54

[BooBear]

5 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

True, and even if she was named heiress, her husband would rule in her name. My modern sensibility just wants to see her be mad about constantly being passed over because she's a woman, I guess, even though there's no historical support for it. 

But, we are dealing with the fictional take on it and before Ms. Gregory decides to come up with silly scenes of Elizabeth rallying the troops I agree it might have been a better choice to see Elizabeth have some thought about her being the legitimate heir to her father's throne.  Or at the very least using that York loyalty to her, her father, her sisters to get support her Henry, and, if she couldn't do that.. for her sons who are 1/2 male York.  So far she just sits around and doesn't do much. Even in this time I can see her working to rally York loyalists with an argument like, who cares about Richard when my sons are a mere 10 years or so from being of age.  The point of her marrying him was to unite the country.  

How is it that Elizabeth of York couldn't rule but Elizabeth I could. Just asking I just have no knowledge of it. 

One other note.. so this is how Elizabeth Woodville dies? A bitter old hag viciously hurting her daughter and blathering on about her son even in her last minutes?  Thank you so much for ruining the White Queen for me.  Also nice, I guess we just shouldn't bother caring at all about what happened to Lizzy's younger sisters there... cause you know.. Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard...... Richard. 

And finally I find Queen Cecily to be changed from the White Queen as well but I find her to be an improvement. 

[absolutelyido]

5 hours ago, BooBear said:

Finally the sex scene. I do think they lied a little with the previews because this looked different than what they were showing. But dude.. they have been married like 8+ years and have three children.  Seemed a little anticlimactic. 

I don't know, I kind of like that they showed them still having a passion for one another after all those years. I think it shows how much they really were in love. I'm wondering if they will show Lizzie as pregnant the next episode. IRL, Mary was born about 5 years after Henry.

Has there been any nudity prior to this episode? I don't think there has been but suddenly there were lots of butts and boobs in view.

5 hours ago, CindyBee said:

Much better episode than that mess that was episode 5 as I didn't fast forward once.  The only scene that was "wtf?' was Lizzie rallying the troops to save the day as that doesn't have any historical merit  (as far as I know) but at least the scene was well acted and added to the over story being told so I'll forgive the writers.

I know some don't like Lady Margaret Beaufort but I love the character and her riding through the countryside to go get the boy was great.   And thank god the dowager Elizabeth is finally gone as that storyline had gone kaput for me.

Yeah, Lizzie rallying the troops never would have happened. I think history says that she never got involved in politics at all. I don't think she sat on the Privy Council either. But they are trying to tell a 15th century story with 21st sensibilities, so they portray her as much more outspoken and involved in Henry's rule than she was. I am liking the story the way they are telling it whether or not it is historically accurate. 

Totally agree that I am so glad Dowager Elizabeth is gone. I was over her scheming and spells from about episode 1. Also, note to Lizzie, your mother never gave much of a fig about you and certainly not for your children. All she seemed to really care about was her sons. 

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

This episode was so over the top, I loved it. My favorite part is the not so subtle "look at sweet little Prince Harry! Nothing could possibly go wrong with this one! Ha, ha, ha..." When Margaret told him he could be pope one day, I fell off my couch laughing.

I actually thought they were showing the opposite about Prince Harry. Sir Pole said he was glad they weren't charged with taking care of Harry because he is a handful, and apparently he cheats at cards!

I still think Jodie Comer and Jacob Collins-Levy are killing it in their roles. 

[Haleth]

11 hours ago, BooBear said:

So far she just sits around and doesn't do much.

Yeah, well, that's pretty much what the real Lizzy did.  It wouldn't make for a very exciting show.

17 hours ago, BooBear said:

I was sort of surprised at the Spain situation. Can anyone comment on if that really happened?  England is still England. A powerful ally. 

 But Henry's rule was still pretty shaky with several York contenders hanging around.  Ferd and Izzy were not going to send their daughter to marry the son of someone who might get toppled.  However Henry and Elizabeth did not travel to Spain themselves.

11 hours ago, BooBear said:

How is it that Elizabeth of York couldn't rule but Elizabeth I could. Just asking I just have no knowledge of it. 

Elizabeth I was preceded by her sister Mary who ruled jointly with her husband Philip (at least in theory).  It was assumed Elizabeth would do the same-- marry and rule jointly with her husband, but of course she never did marry.  

[CindyBee]

12 hours ago, BooBear said:

One other note.. so this is how Elizabeth Woodville dies? A bitter old hag viciously hurting her daughter and blathering on about her son even in her last minutes?  Thank you so much for ruining the White Queen for me.  Also nice, I guess we just shouldn't bother caring at all about what happened to Lizzy's younger sisters there... cause you know.. Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard...... Richard. 

Yeah I'm sorry that the writers have made sister Cecily and her hubby disappear after episode 3 (or was it 4?) as I think there could have been more to their story but I guess Maggie and Sir Richard had a more compelling story line so they won out as the secondary York/Tudor couple.    At least the little sisters in the abbey get a mention that they were now married which is a half truth as one became a nun.

Speaking of Maggie, has anyone read her story by Gregory, "The King's Curse"?   Just wondering as I've finished the five books of the Cousins at War series and its suppose to be next in order.

[nodorothyparker]

I've read it.  It's a lot of the usual Henry VIII is so awful and so unfair but look how important I am, blah blah blah.

There was a lot of very very very white English backside on display in this episode, I guess to make up the lack of in every other episode so far.  I'll agree that it's fine that they're showing that Henry and Lizzie did trust and desire each other, but it does feel like it comes a little late in the story.  We jumped from these people sharing a kiss and promising to try to make a go of it at the end of one episode to several years and a couple of kids later in the next.

I'm as amused as anybody that they'd throw in a wholly fictional trip to Spain for marriage negotiations in the face of impending invasion. That's a really good way to come back to find somebody else sitting on your throne, idiots.  I can only assume that somebody in the crew wanted to visit the Alhambra after seeing it stand in for Dorne in Game in Thrones and said what the hell.  Usually marriages were arranged by professional diplomats or lesser nobles serving the king and no real king would have ever lowered himself to have to seek an audience like that, but hey, look a dance number!  All this did though was make me wish somebody would do a series on Isabella of what will become Spain, who was about as badass warrior queen as European rulers of the day got.  But I realize the inherent difficulties in telling her story, given some of the more unpleasant bits of theocratic horror and conquest that can be laid at her feet.

I actually didn't mind the also fictional scene of Lizzie rallying the troops because at least it was her doing something other than fretting about what her mother was up to.  I too find it curious that with all the public swearing and effort Henry went to in marrying her to combine the warring factions that Henry and Lizzie both don't seem to be doing more to remind all these people at every single opportunity that through her Henry's heirs are every bit as much York as they are Lancaster and is it worth more loss and bloodshed to bicker over degrees?  It's like they slapped up their hybrid rose on a few banners and thought that should settle it.

[rove4]

So, so glad that Elizabeth Woodville is finally gone. I love Essie Davis and she did a great job playing the character. I'd wait for the other mother-in-law from hell to kick the bucket too

Spoiler

but I don't think history is on my side there.

 The time jump didn't work for me at all. I feel robbed of getting to see the best part of Henry and Lizzie's developing relationship. Plus, I don't like seven-years-older Henry's hair. Younger Henry's hair was sexier.  That said, I'll take the sex scene because the two actors do have nice chemistry. 

When Lizzie showed up at the battle camp ground and Henry remarked that she must have ridden all night to get there, I was reminded of the scene where Lizzie asks him if he doesn't want someone who would ride across a battlefield just to hear the sound of his voice. I guess he got that after all since Lizzie sought him out for comfort after the death of her mother.  That was a nice touch.

So did Henry actually end up sending the letter to Scotland telling them what his agents had uncovered about the true identity of Richard?  If he did, it must not have had much effect since Richard keeps recruiting men to his side.

I am so over Margaret of Burgundy.

[Kata01]

I thought this episode Lizzie & Henry-wise would've worked much better as Episode 5 versus the one that aired. Although viewers don't see the progression of the relationship from that kiss & promise in Episode 4, at least here we can see a truly loving couple versus the I-Don't-Know-What-That-Was-In-Episode5.

Sad end to the Elizabeth Woodville character from TWQ, but what a blessed blessed blessed sweet relief her death brings to her, to Lizzie, and us. The dynamic of that relationship between mother and daughter was strange - EW was a non-entity, separated and locked away from her daughter through much of her storyline here in TWP and yet Lizzie's role in the series has been reacting to her mother's schemes and moves, endlessly (felt like it) pleading with Henry on EW's behalf. 

I tend to agree with both Prince Harry & Lord Strange in that EW did indeed go "mad". Perhaps the isolation (of her own making) drove the obsession with Richard to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. There is a sense that by the end, all of her children cut contact with her, including her living other son (not mentioned in this series). My heart broke for Lizzie, who truly loves her mother, in that final scene. Sure, EW "waited" for her; if only to once again entreat for her Richard. Richard, Richard, Richard (using my best Jan Brady voice). I have no doubt Elizabeth Woodville would've supported a watermelon as Prince Richard...because, well,  he's coming (!) 

Two episodes left! 

[NYCNJbear06]

I guess we aren’t even following the books anymore.  Lizzie revealing to Henry the ultimate family secret about the princes in the tower is yet another creative license.  I guess it is used as a plot device to show Lizzies love for Henry.   Also the visit to Spain was another scene I wasn’t expecting.  Although we all know where this is leading it will be interesting to see the path it will take. 

The Kings Curse was a good read in the vein of all of Gregory’s books.  Margaret’s story is an interesting one and quite deserving of her own series especially (as portrayed in the Gregory books) her relationship to Katherine of Aragon and Henry the VIII.  Hers is truly a tragic story and she experiences both courts Henry VII and VIII.  

Wow only two episodes left?  I have no clue where this will end historically speaking.  

[CindyBee]

33 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I've read it.  It's a lot of the usual Henry VIII is so awful and so unfair but look how important I am, blah blah blah.

Thanks.  Our local book fair is in a couple of weeks so I'll look for a used copy there.

One other thought about episode 6's authenticity.  

Were Arthur, Margaret, and Henry all at the beheading of their step great-Uncle, William Stanley???  That seems a bit much for young children but then it was a different time.

[nodorothyparker]

I completely forgot about the invented confession to the book-invented we smuggled real Richard out and sent some nameless peasant to be murdered in his place.  But it's okay you probably killed him, so we're good, right?  Sigh. 

Love the Jan Brady comparison with Elizabeth Woodville going all Richard Richard Richard even on her death bed when the one child she's worked her hardest to alienate shows up anyway.  So sorry that I married you off to this pretender and if Richard Richard Richard does manage to win the throne he'll have little choice but to murder the children you had with him as rival claimants.  But you'll be a good girl and help anyway, won't you?  Gah.  Any episode where Margaret Beauford is not the nuttiest granola bar in the box isn't a good thing.

I think I've just reached a point where Gregory either needs to pick another historical family to mangle from 10 different angles or I need a lengthy break from these books.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It did have some odd / unbelievable moments. The troops return to Henry because of a rousing speech Elizabeth gives them? I find that hard to believe.  

Not to mention what little such a small group would be able to accomplish. That's one problem with the budget limitations of a show like this.It looked like there were only a couple dozen people she was rallying.

I'm really tired of Maggie, she always looks like she's about to burst into tears.

The love scene was confusing because as Henry and Lizzie lay in the afterglow, Henry remarks "I never thought we'd have this." That kind of made it sound like up until that moment they had never had any real love between them. What about the past seven years? When they went from being paired against their will to actually being in love is something that should have been clarified and explored earlier.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, CindyBee said:

Were Arthur, Margaret, and Henry all at the beheading of their step great-Uncle, William Stanley???  That seems a bit much for young children but then it was a different time.

Absolutely not. Very unlikely that Henry and certainly not Elizabeth were there either.

If anyone is interested in learning about a more fascinating English queen, read about Emma of Normandy who survived in an even more tumultuous time.  She was married to two kings (one Saxon, one Danish) and was the mother of two kings in the late 10th- early 11th c.    (And if you happen to watch Vikings, she was Rollo's great granddaughter.)

Edited May 22, 2017 by Haleth

[BooBear]

54 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The love scene was confusing because as Henry and Lizzie lay in the afterglow, Henry remarks "I never thought we'd have this." That kind of made it sound like up until that moment they had never had any real love between them. What about the past seven years? When they went from being paired against their will to actually being in love is something that should have been clarified and explored earlier.

Yes am I honestly to believe that it took them 8 years to really be "in love". After three children and 7 or so years of being "under attack" together.  Nope... not buying it.  I do think that was what they were trying to imply.  So funny that we have a "romance novel" miniseries and they messed up the romance part.

Random thoughts from above. Henry's wig is killing it for me. It is a poorly done wig and I think I noticed it early on but with gray in his hair it really looks odd.

I do think they were going for that "ride across a battlefield for you." But it seemed like she was doing that to tell him of her mother's passing. But it was decent of him to insist she see mommy one last time. 

I am also not really sure where this show is going. I am going to see it through but kind of a disappointment. I wouldn't want to see a Maggie miniseries because this Maggie is a chore and a pill. It is like she is having a panic attack constantly.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Henry's wig is killing it for me. It is a poorly done wig and I think I noticed it early on but with gray in his hair it really looks odd.

I agree! It looked sort of OK in the first episode but ever since it's looked awful. Here's a pic of him with his real hair. So much better. They could have just pretended Henry Tudor had unfashionably short hair and gone with that.

Speaking of hair, no way Queen Elizabeth would have had a braided ponytail hanging down her back. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by iMonrey

[nodorothyparker]

I'm surprised they bothered with a wig at all.  The actor playing maybe Richard Richard Richard looks like a particularly pale frat boy.

I've said from the first that the costume and hair design seems to be going more for a faux fairy tale look than anything resembling the first Tudor court, save for poor Michelle Fairley who seems to be in half period costume and half old Disney cartoon Maleficent.  Proper noble women of the time wouldn't have been caught dead traipsing around court or anywhere else bareheaded or with romance novel tresses flowing everywhere.  

That was part of why I loved the invented meeting with Ferdinand and Isabella so much.  Once you got past the big dance number and the dramatics of them sitting there like living statues you could almost see Isabella so properly and completely swathed in layers looking down her nose at this bareheaded fool who presumed to speak to her queen to queen.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Proper noble women of the time wouldn't have been caught dead traipsing around court or anywhere else bareheaded or with romance novel tresses flowing everywhere.  

Or the plunging neckline. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Haleth

[Kata01]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Or the plunging neckline. 

...those bosoms are not going to just heave themselves ;) 

[Glade]

During the opening scene, this is all I could think of:

Henry: At the banquet that day you couldn't look at me, as you can't now!

Lizzie: Henry; I wanted to tell you!

Henry: Oh god, please!

Lizzie: It's your hair! It is this hideously dry, partially curled, matted mess, it looks almost canine!

Henry: You've lied to me for all these years, never telling me!

Lizzie:  When we first wed I was filled with malice, that was my reason for not telling you, but later it was so that you would not feel fear, that your men would rebel against you in favor of my brother and his glorious golden locks.  

--

I was glad that MB seemed to be sidelined/out of power until the end when she decided to sexually humiliate a young man by forcing him to strip because she really thinks that her god gives a fuck about 15th century fashion codes.  Too bad he didn't kill her, I don't think the monks would stop him.   Both monarchs taking a trip to Spain (while one of the princes also does a tour of the country) in the middle of a rebellion made them all look really stupid. 

[absolutelyido]

11 hours ago, BooBear said:

Random thoughts from above. Henry's wig is killing it for me. It is a poorly done wig and I think I noticed it early on but with gray in his hair it really looks odd.

It looks like his hair hasn't been washed or combed since...ever! I'm not sure if it's a wig or if they put extensions in his hair. I think the shorter hair Henry had in the earlier episodes (before the time jump) was the actor's real hair and it looked fine, but now it looks to me like they have weaved some longer pieces in. It's distractingly awful.

[rove4]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 0:03 PM, iMonrey said:

The love scene was confusing because as Henry and Lizzie lay in the afterglow, Henry remarks "I never thought we'd have this." That kind of made it sound like up until that moment they had never had any real love between them. What about the past seven years? When they went from being paired against their will to actually being in love is something that should have been clarified and explored earlier.

My fanwank is that they've had relative peace for the intervening seven years but now that there is a possibility of losing what they've achieved together Henry is merely pondering that he never expected to have it in the first place.  Or something.

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 0:12 PM, Haleth said:

Absolutely not. Very unlikely that Henry and certainly not Elizabeth were there either.

If anyone is interested in learning about a more fascinating English queen, read about Emma of Normandy who survived in an even more tumultuous time.  She was married to two kings (one Saxon, one Danish) and was the mother of two kings in the late 10th- early 11th c.    (And if you happen to watch Vikings, she was Rollo's great granddaughter.)

I keep planning to binge watch that show at some point.  I've just finished three seasons of Peaky Blinders. 

[BooBear]

So perhaps I am just spent with this series but..my feeling is that I wish I had stopped the series last week. I thought this one was horrible and imho seemed to be needlessly stalling the ending. I fast forwarded a lot of it.