Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

 Sansa actually being offered the crown, which at least gives Arya's fears some basis

And Arya noticing that Sansa is actually tempted by the offer and wants to accept. Arya's abilities to read emotions comes into play here.

It's funny that Sansa blames Ramsay's techniques for disloyalty, considering that Ramsay was wildly successful in getting loyal allies unlike the Starks.

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Lyanna Mormont says there that Jon was crowned "a month ago", which, if that line makes it into the show, I'm pretty sure the show's already battered chronology will explode into a million pieces.

Yeah, but I am guessing that Jon did not immediately leave after getting crowned. Melisandre had to get to Dragonstone as did Dany and then Tyrion sends the raven to Jon which he ignore's until Sam's ravengram.  So that could be a couple of weeks fixing up Winterfell and maybe two weeks gone to Dragonstone...

Edited August 10, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

And Arya noticing that Sansa is actually tempted by the offer and wants to accept. Arya's abilities to read emotions comes into play here.

It's funny that Sansa blames Ramsay's techniques for disloyalty, considering that Ramsay was wildly successful in getting loyal allies unlike the Starks.

Yeah, but I am guessing that Jon did not immediately leave after getting crowned. Melisandre had to get to Dragonstone as did Dany and then Tyrion sends the raven to Jon which they ignore until Sam's ravengram.  So that could be a couple of weeks fixing up Winterfell and maybe two weeks gone to Dragonstone?

It's not just Jon, though.  If Jon has only been king for about a month, that means that basically everything in the southern plot this season has occurred over the course of like two weeks.

[anamika]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

It's not just Jon, though.  If Jon has only been king for about a month, that means that basically everything in the southern plot this season has occurred over the course of like two weeks.

The southern plot is basically just Dany's allies getting demolished right? Euron's ships being everywhere is a bit ridiculous, but I can see things happening in that span of time. A lot of events are happening simultaneously,  like Greyworm's attack on Casterly Rock and Jaime's attack on Highgarden.  Dany lands on Dragonstone - they begin immediately and then Ellaria and co. get ambushed on their way to Dorne. Jon lands in Dragonstone in the middle of all this.

Bran dawdling at the wall instead of getting to WF by episode 2 is the biggest head scratcher.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, doram said:

OK, this is better. The question isn’t whether she uses dragon fire as  form of execution but whether or not, she should show Dickon mercy. 

I’m still on Team Dany in this. She gives both men a chance to bend the knee. She singles Dickon out and asks him to defy his father and get her pardon. And Dickon refuses. He’s clearly under a lot of pressure at the time but… What more can Dany do? He’s a grown man and he makes his choice and he has to face the consequences. Poor guy, though.

 

I still don’t understand how Jaimie escaped dragon fire but I guess we’ll just have to hand wave that. interesting that he says he was aiming for the dragon, and not Daenerys when it seems clear to me that it was the woman he was trying to spear. But I guess the writers are still trying to make Jaimie “I push boys out of windows and put babies in catapults” Lannister as a man that is too good to attack a woman.

I like that the dragons ‘felt’ Jon out and it was his standing his ground that made them come to him. Less magical and fan-servicey and more in keeping with the books. Dany formed a bond with the dragons because she birthed them and nurtured them. Doesn’t Doreah form that same bond from being around them all the time and helping Dany take care of them. 

 

Question - who do you think ate whom first in that prison? Doreah or Xaro Xhaon Daxos?

 

Hasn't he always been? He was 'blood of her blood' since the Red Sea.

 

 

Interesting analysis.

You're spot on that Rhaegar has no right to annul a legitimate consummated marriage with children. Doing that would have at least caused a civil war with Dorne.

Like in the Henry 8 example, Henry was a King when he annulled his marriage and he had to form his own Church and make himself Head of that Church to have the authority to annul that marriage. 

You can also add that Rhaegar, as a member of the royal family, had no right to enter a royal marriage without the King's permission. So you can even argue that his marriage with Lyanna even if he was practising polygamy was still illegal.

The show will short-hand all this but they're quite important.

Frankly, I think Jon’s dual Stark and Targaryen legacy have more to do with his ability or destiny to defeat the Night King than his claim to the Iron Throne.  I agree that it’s not so straightforward that his claim supersedes Dany for all these reasons you’ve stated. 

 

In the end, I don’t see any Dance of Dragons pt 2 happening. Dany will sit on the Throne with Jon’s full support, and they'll co-rule. The question is if they will both survive the Long Night. 

I used to believe the same, based on book texts in which divorce/annulment was virtually impossible; that Jon was indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but not legitimate. Then others kept pointing out that three (two on the show) Kingsguard - including the Lord Commander, remained at the Tower of Joy in the middle of nowhere because they saw it as their duty. Their primary duty is to protect the King, but in that case with Aerys, Rhaegar and baby Aegon dead, the King would be Viserys if Jon was illegitimate.  And Viserys was on Dragonstone with another knight who was not a Kingsguard. Ned asks why would they remain at the TOJ if Viserys was on Dragonstone. They said "The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now." Why would the KG remain there if they did not believe that Jon was Rhaegar's legitimate heir and heir to the throne?

I have a bit of a (maybe crackpot) theory that Rhaegar persuaded his Father that he needed a second wife because the prophesy indicated there had to be three children, and Elia was unable to bear any more. Aerys was present when the prophesy about the Prince That Was Promised was revealed to be of his line. That was the main reason he ended up married to Rhaella in the first place. 

If presented with Rhaegar's plan and knowing the prophesy, I think Aerys would probably agree  to Rhaegar's marriage scheme and see the side benefit in trying to foil Rickard Stark's Southron ambitions and putting cousin Robert in his place. Someone as crazy as Aerys who took pleasure in burning people alive could probably threaten the High Septon into justifying an annulment or divorce of Rhaegar's marriage with Elia. There's book evidence that the high Septons or the Faith were easily corrupted in any case. Or failing that, Aerys could have declared that any child born to Rhaegar and Lyanna would be legitimized upon birth. That would make Jon the last living legitimate male heir of Rhaegar, and as far as the KG were concerned, the legitimate heir to the throne.

Bottom line: We don't know yet in the books how a legitimate marriage could have happened, but it seems likely. In the TV show they are discarding some bits of culture and history for the sake of a cohesive story and they could come up with a reason to justify annulment. Clearly we are intended to believe that Jon is legitmate, or at least arguably so.

Edited to add:  I agree that Jon's Stark/Targ blood has more to do with Ice and Fire for defeating the Night King and his army, not for ruling the Seven Kingdoms. I agree that Jon doesn't care about, and wouldn't want the Iron Throne for himself. He is concerned with protecting the realm of men from the Others, both in the books and on the show. If he marries Daenerys or they decide to co-rule the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms, they will cooperate in trying to defeat the enemy of all life. 

That said, I don't the Seven Kingdoms will survive intact, and I'm not sure that Jon and/or Dany will survive the war for the Dawn. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by MarySNJ

[Edith]

Wilf Scolding confirmed as Rhaegar according to the cast list leak for season 7

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6ssm87/its_confirmed_wilf_scolding_is_officially_on_the/

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

The Northern Lords seem like such whiny babies.  

I agree, especially fucking Lord Glover.

Lord Glover, Season 6: Fuck the Starks for daring to think that we owe them anything.

Lord Glover, 6x10: I'm so, soooooooo sorry about the whole "Fuck you" thing. Jon is the best for forgiving me for not fighting with him on the battlefield. KITN 4eva!!!

Lord Glover, 7x05 (apparently): It's been weeks since Jon left on a dangerous mission to get crucial resources to save the North and he's not back yet???? Fuck him.

Ugh. 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Lyanna Mormont says there that Jon was crowned "a month ago", which, if that line makes it into the show, I'm pretty sure the show's already battered chronology will explode into a million pieces.

I assume Lyanna was exaggerating for dramatic effect, but it wouldn't be the first time the writers have played fast and loose with chronology.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Lyanna Mormont says there that Jon was crowned "a month ago", which, if that line makes it into the show, I'm pretty sure the show's already battered chronology will explode into a million pieces.

This really bugs the hell out of me. In 701, they said that a fortnight had passed since the last episode basically, and now 5 episodes in and it's been just two weeks? I don't think they should mention anything about timelines anymore because it's a hot mess. 

54 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I used to believe the same, based on book texts in which divorce/annulment was virtually impossible; that Jon was indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but not legitimate. Then others kept pointing out that three (two on the show) Kingsguard - including the Lord Commander, remained at the Tower of Joy in the middle of nowhere because they saw it as their duty. Their primary duty is to protect the King, but in that case with Aerys, Rhaegar and baby Aegon dead, the King would be Viserys if Jon was illegitimate.  And Viserys was on Dragonstone with another knight who was not a Kingsguard. Ned asks why would they remain at the TOJ if Viserys was on Dragonstone. They said "The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now." Why would the KG remain there if they did not believe that Jon was Rhaegar's legitimate heir and heir to the throne?

I have a bit of a (maybe crackpot) theory that Rhaegar persuaded his Father that he needed a second wife because the prophesy indicated there had to be three children, and Elia was unable to bear any more. Aerys was present when the prophesy about the Prince That Was Promised was revealed to be of his line. That was the main reason he ended up married to Rhaella in the first place. 

If presented with Rhaegar's plan and knowing the prophesy, I think Aerys would probably agree  to Rhaegar's marriage scheme and see the side benefit in trying to foil Rickard Stark's Southron ambitions and putting cousin Robert in his place. Someone as crazy as Aerys who took pleasure in burning people alive could probably threaten the High Septon into justifying an annulment or divorce of Rhaegar's marriage with Elia. There's book evidence that the high Septons or the Faith were easily corrupted in any case. Or failing that, Aerys could have declared that any child born to Rhaegar and Lyanna would be legitimized upon birth. That would make Jon the last living legitimate male heir of Rhaegar, and as far as the KG were concerned, the legitimate heir to the throne.

Bottom line: We don't know yet in the books how a legitimate marriage could have happened, but it seems likely. In the TV show they are discarding some bits of culture and history for the sake of a cohesive story and they could come up with a reason to justify annulment. Clearly we are intended to believe that Jon is legitmate, or at least arguably so.

Edited to add:  I agree that Jon's Stark/Targ blood has more to do with Ice and Fire for defeating the Night King and his army, not for ruling the Seven Kingdoms. I agree that Jon doesn't care about, and wouldn't want the Iron Throne for himself. He is concerned with protecting the realm of men from the Others, both in the books and on the show. If he marries Daenerys or they decide to co-rule the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms, they will cooperate in trying to defeat the enemy of all life. 

That said, I don't the Seven Kingdoms will survive intact, and I'm not sure that Jon and/or Dany will survive the war for the Dawn. 

I don't think we can dismiss Renly and Loras's scheming to bring Margaery to KL and dangle her under Robert's nose with the hope that he would set Cersei aside and marry Margaery instead. Even Cersei had some worries that she would be set aside. I know that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen's bastardy has a lot to do with this, but still. I'm not sure Renly would have revealed that tidbit until he had to. 

I think the whole reason Aerys kept Elia and the children as his hostages for Dorne's good behavior at the Red Keep was because of whatever went down before Rhaegar left. Part of me is wonders if Aerys didn't decide to make Viserys his heir because he had threatened to do that. He sends Viserys away but not Aegon who is Rhaegar's heir? 

I honestly don't think it matters whether Jon is legitimate or not, whether his parents married in front of a heart tree or in the light of the Seven, or if they bypassed all of that. His destiny was never to sit the throne anyway. If Rhaegar had lived, he would have been king, and Aegon after him, and Aegon's children. If Aerys had decided to bypass Rhaegar, then it would have been Viserys and his own brand of crazy. 

I'd like to hear what Varys has to say since he was by Aerys's side most of the time. I'm willing to bet that he finally got to him. 

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Lord Glover, Season 6: Fuck the Starks for daring to think that we owe them anything.

Lord Glover, 6x10: I'm so, soooooooo sorry about the whole "Fuck you" thing. Jon is the best for forgiving me for not fighting with him on the battlefield. KITN 4eva!!!

Lord Glover, 7x05 (apparently): It's been weeks since Jon left on a dangerous mission to get crucial resources to save the North and he's not back yet???? Fuck him.

Book!Glover is kind of awesome. Show!Glover needs to ride back to Deepwood Motte and die. He could've sent a raven with his bitching or a howler, but they don't have those in Westeros. The northern lords are a very fickle bunch on the show with no real loyalty, and Glover is essentially a traitor. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[SeanC]

I note that on Page 17 of the outline it seems like they're suggesting that Gendry will be the next Lord of Storm's End.

[ElizaD]

3 hours ago, doram said:

In the end, I don’t see any Dance of Dragons pt 2 happening. Dany will sit on the Throne with Jon’s full support, and they'll co-rule. The question is if they will both survive the Long Night. 

Jon/Dany both surviving and ruling together fits both the Wars of the Roses (two claimants marry) and LOTR (Aragorn/Arwen). At the moment it feels like the show is portraying Jon as someone Dany comes to respect because he's able to relate to her as an equal and also speak to her heart so that after listening to him she can put her fiery temper to a better use (going dracarys on the army rather than KL). I guess if they both live, the only question is which of them is the one actually sitting on the Iron Throne in the finale.

Since I've thought that the show might ignore the fate of Sunspear and Riverrun, I'm really pleased that the outline suggests they might actually go ahead and make Gendry the Lord of Storm's End. If he was brought back just to be cannon fodder in season 8, why even mention that? Why not just stick to their fathers being friends? I'd be perfectly fine with Sam getting Highgarden and Gendry getting Storm's End.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

This really bugs the hell out of me. In 701, they said that a fortnight had passed since the last episode basically, and now 5 episodes in and it's been just two weeks? I don't think they should mention anything about timelines anymore because it's a hot mess. 

I don't think we can dismiss Renly and Loras's scheming to bring Margaery to KL and dangle her under Robert's nose with the hope that he would set Cersei aside and marry Margaery instead. Even Cersei had some worries that she would be set aside. I know that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen's bastardy has a lot to do with this, but still. I'm not sure Renly would have revealed that tidbit until he had to. 

I think the whole reason Aerys kept Elia and the children as his hostages for Dorne's good behavior at the Red Keep was because of whatever went down before Rhaegar left. Part of me is wonders if Aerys didn't decide to make Viserys his heir because he had threatened to do that. He sends Viserys away but not Aegon who is Rhaegar's heir? 

I honestly don't think it matters whether Jon is legitimate or not, whether his parents married in front of a heart tree or in the light of the Seven, or if they bypassed all of that. His destiny was never to sit the throne anyway. If Rhaegar had lived, he would have been king, and Aegon after him, and Aegon's children. If Aerys had decided to bypass Rhaegar, then it would have been Viserys and his own brand of crazy. 

I'd like to hear what Varys has to say since he was by Aerys's side most of the time. I'm willing to bet that he finally got to him. 

Good point about Renly and Loras' scheme involving Magaery. I wonder how much of Cersei's fear had to do with her knowledge (or guilty conscience?) that her children were Jaime's and what disclosure of that would mean. If her infidelity had been discovered, Cersei would have been executed along with Jaime and her children removed as heirs to the throne, if they weren't also killed. That would have given Robert the freedom to marry again without needing a dispensation from the High Septon, so it would have made sense for Renly to hold onto that information until Robert had taken the bait. 

As for Aerys keeping Elia and her children as hostages, he was paranoid about everyone including Rhaegar, but it doesn't mean he couldn't be persuaded to go along with Rhaegar's attempt to make ready for the prophesy while also foiling Rickard's alleged plot. Aerys keeping Rhaegar's heir hostage is insurance and a warning to Rhaegar, to make sure that Rhaegar wouldn't double cross him. 

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I'd be perfectly fine with Sam getting Highgarden and Gendry getting Storm's End.

Gendry winding up Lord of Storm's End seems like it would be a show-only thing, since I doubt GRRM told D&D back in 2013 what he planned on doing with Gendry (Gendry being a relatively minor character and all), but who cares? I can dig it.

I love the idea of Jon and Gendry becoming fast friends (not to mention that Rhaegar and Robert's sons being BFF is great, even if Jon is not yet aware of his parentage). Why wouldn't they? In between drunk uncle Tyrion and Davos' dad jokes, Jon could use some friends his own age in his vicinity (although I hope he'll be reunited with Sam in short order in S8).

Edited August 10, 2017 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Gendry winding up Lord of Storm's End seems like it would be a show-only thing, since I doubt GRRM told D&D back in 2013 what he planned on doing with Gendry (Gendry being a relatively minor character and all), but who cares? I can dig it.

Yes, he's such a minor character that this has a better chance of being their invention than something like Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell, but since I'd love to know the fates of all the castles in the series I'm glad we might get a show answer to at least one of those questions. Or maybe GRRM has already decided that the endgame monarch shows mercy to the Baratheons and gives Storm's End to Edric, in which case Gendry could continue to serve as his show version. Also, I never thought Gendry/Arya was likely and him becoming lord seems like another thing that stands in its way. Both Stark sisters will likely end the series single and free to do what they want (going on adventures or ladying at Winterfell).

[GrailKing]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:16 AM, Oscirus said:

Once her engagement to Joffrey was broken, in Cersei's mind, she ceased to be the young queen from the prophecy, so she no longer poses a threat to Cersei. Now that she has confirmation that Sansa has nothing to do with Joffrey's murder, I doubt that Cersei would waste any more time thinking about her or any more money trying to kill her.

Oh, my sweet summer child !

: )

[YaddaYadda]

About the leaked script. What kind of fuckery is that talk about magic and Jon being resurrected? Because Jon didn't let Davos say anything, and it's just weird and out of nowhere that Dany should even mention that at all.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Script outline for episode 5:

http://imgur.com/a/heYd9

Some interesting tidbits in there. And since the Arya-Brienne sparring is in this outline we also get what David and Dan were going for with regards to Sansa when Arya asks Brienne to serve her as well - "Sansa is clearly a bit taken aback that Brienne does not only serve her, she has to share her with Arya and LF notices what she was feeling"  and "Brienne notices the tension between the sisters and Sansa walks off".

It  looks like the Jon/Dany relationship is going full steam ahead. Apparently Rhaegal and Viserion also land near Jon but I think the CGI budget ate them up. Some Rhaegal-Jon bonding going on there - hints of Jon as Rhaegal's rider?

And yes, the Tyrion/Varys discussion about 'making her listen' is about Dany.   Jorah is Dany's Lord commander of the Queens guard!

And according to this, Cersei does tell Jaime about her child.

It's interesting to see the things they have changed from their original outline.

More detailed script outline: 

http://imgur.com/a/AkDWm

What the hell is that dialogue between Jon and Dany about magic? lol!

Jenny of Oldstones gets a mention!

Also lol at the way the Northern houses are written on the show. They are the worst - so fickle and useless. All they do is show up and complain.  After all that rousing KITN speeches and sword waving, they want to get rid of Jon and make Sansa QITN? These worthless bastards don't deserve Jon as KITN.  He should just bend the knee to Dany - a little Dracarys and they will all fall in line soon enough.

My take using both leaks:

1: despite what Ned and Sansa stated, Davos had the right of it, and Sansa is now seeing it front and center and has to navigate those waters.

If Lord Glover is betraying House Stark, then I hope Sansa has a plan for him; if they win the war, and it shouldn't be pleasant as for Royce, I hope if he's double dealing, she gets control of Robyn and the Vale army.

2: I think seeing Brieene and Arya bonding is seeing her dad and Arya all over again, it must hurt, because even though Sansa is doing well, she doesn't see what she accomplished as worthy, and Arya despite how Sansa has grown and recognized Arya's changes some with concerns, Arya is WRG to her relationship with Sansa is still stuck in book 1, season 1.

3: Assuming we are seeing things as they are ( no Sansa Arya talking plans off screen ) I think the show runners are going to slowly show Arya realize Sansa's changed and HER set of skills, which would make sense since Arya was locked into a military form of boot camp where they have trained for one thing only to kill for hire and don't take feelings into account.

We seen her show some caring with Lady Crane and the Lannister soldiers, but she and Sansa run deeper , she wasn't in the throne room when Sansa begged, all she knows is her sister was up with the Lannisters with a smile on her face she didn't know of Cersei's plan for the wall, Joffery's and LF betrayal.

She doesn't see Sansa's using what she's learned through her 6 years of hell, all she see's or think she sees is Sansa usurping Jon.

With all that Arya trained for, not picking up on LF watching her, or entertain the possibility of LF playing her seems like she was asleep on some lessons.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Gendry winding up Lord of Storm's End seems like it would be a show-only thing, since I doubt GRRM told D&D back in 2013 what he planned on doing with Gendry (Gendry being a relatively minor character and all), but who cares? I can dig it.

I love the idea of Jon and Gendry becoming fast friends (not to mention that Rhaegar and Robert's sons being BFF is great, even if Jon is not yet aware of his parentage). Why wouldn't they? In between drunk uncle Tyrion and Davos' dad jokes, Jon could use some friends his own age in his vicinity (although I hope he'll be reunited with Sam in short order in S8).

Well show gendry is a combo of book Gendry and Edric Storm (?).

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Oh, my sweet summer child !

: )

She has two separate opportunities  to kill her hated brother this season and she doen't because she has other priorities. What makes you think that she cares about some chick up north who poses  no threat to her?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

57 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She's has two separate opportunities  to kill her hated brother this season and she didn't because she had other priorities. What makes you think that she cares about some chick up north who poses  no threat to her?

One: Sansa like Margery was hated by her and she still hates her.

Two: in books Sansa had three wishes/ dreams: Ahero taking J Slynt's head- Check, Sept of Balior to be destroyed -check , Twin towers going down ( this could be houses Lannisters and Tyrells )-check.

3. Cersei is a dumb, evil twit, she hated the Starks, when young, she hated them in KL, she hates them still she wants Sansa's head, Sansa's fears to Jon aren't idle, they're real, as real as the mad women sitting in KL.

In her mind as long as Sansa's alive the Starks are threats to her.

4: Illyn Payne-m is roaming around.

Edited August 10, 2017 by GrailKing

[Hana Chan]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I honestly don't think it matters whether Jon is legitimate or not, whether his parents married in front of a heart tree or in the light of the Seven, or if they bypassed all of that. His destiny was never to sit the throne anyway. If Rhaegar had lived, he would have been king, and Aegon after him, and Aegon's children. If Aerys had decided to bypass Rhaegar, then it would have been Viserys and his own brand of crazy. 

Had things progressed as usual and all of Rhaegar's children survived (no sure thing in this type of era), then yes... Aegon would have been ahead of Jon in the line of succession whether or not Jon was legitimate or not. But it is going to matter a great deal. If the spoilers are correct and Rhaegar annulled his first marriage in order to marry Lyanna, then he would have had legal grounds to place Jon ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. Annulling a marriage is different than a divorce, because you're saying that the first marriage was never valid. That would make his first two children technically illegitimate if he chose. Henry VIII did that to Elizabeth when he had her mother executed - he tried to have her declared illegitimate after Anne Boleyn was executed, though that didn't work out and she was kept in the line of succession.

I'm not sure if Aerys would have had grounds to pass Rhaegar over in favor of Viserys since there was no question of Rhaegar's legitimacy and since Viserys was a young child at the time of Aerys's death, it would meant passing over a popular and beloved prince in favor of a small child that would not have been able to rule in his own right for many years. Don't think that would have worked out and it would have been pretty easy for Rhaegar to retake the throne.

[YaddaYadda]

43 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Had things progressed as usual and all of Rhaegar's children survived (no sure thing in this type of era), then yes... Aegon would have been ahead of Jon in the line of succession whether or not Jon was legitimate or not. But it is going to matter a great deal. If the spoilers are correct and Rhaegar annulled his first marriage in order to marry Lyanna, then he would have had legal grounds to place Jon ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. Annulling a marriage is different than a divorce, because you're saying that the first marriage was never valid. That would make his first two children technically illegitimate if he chose. Henry VIII did that to Elizabeth when he had her mother executed - he tried to have her declared illegitimate after Anne Boleyn was executed, though that didn't work out and she was kept in the line of succession.

I agree that annulling a marriage and this annulment will provoke an internet shitstorm. The show is doing the characters a disservice in oversimplifying this. 

In any case, by the time the long night comes and goes, I doubt it will matter who is a bastard and who isn't. I think people will turn to those who have led them through the long night instead. In the books at least, there are some prominent bastards who look poised to make some kind of a difference. Of course GRRM will kill them off and I'll be upset. 

51 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I'm not sure if Aerys would have had grounds to pass Rhaegar over in favor of Viserys since there was no question of Rhaegar's legitimacy and since Viserys was a young child at the time of Aerys's death, it would meant passing over a popular and beloved prince in favor of a small child that would not have been able to rule in his own right for many years. Don't think that would have worked out and it would have been pretty easy for Rhaegar to retake the throne.

I guess it can be done if he called a council. What are people going to do? Say no and get torched in the process? Rhaegar was going to call an informal council to have his father removed, I'm assuming the same would have to be done to remove the crown prince. 

[Wouter]

14 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Episode 5 photos. My favorite is our first look at Gilly discovering Rhaegar's annulment.

That quote about Sansa's dress, in addition to the other developments and lines this season, makes me feel even more confident that she won't be marrying Tyrion or Sandor in season 8. If she lives, she'll be single and in charge in 8x06.

Michelle Clapton is specifically referring to Littlefinger as the one she is effectively armouring herself against. Sansa has been dressed in wildly different styles at various points, and S8, especially late S8 (after the White Walkers have been defeated?) may be very different again.

The lines this season (as of ep4) are pretty neutral on the Tyrion/Sansa marriage (and also on Sandor/Sansa, I suppose); it has been mentioned and Tyrion even asked if Sansa missed him, not sure if this was entirely meant to be a joke.

So far, it looks like Sansa is headed to be lady of Winterfell. With Rickon dead (a shock to me, as a book reader I had suspected this character was there to continue the Stark line in the end, as the main line holding Winterfell), Sansa will need heirs or else she will have to count on Arya providing those for her. Which does seem to indicate she will likely need to marry at some points, and the show has left few viable candidates. It would be ironic if it were Gendry, if he would marry a Stark it should be Arya. I suppose they may introduce some northern or Vale lordling in S8, but would they wait so long for that?

[GrailKing]

22 minutes ago, Wouter said:

With Rickon dead (a shock to me, as a book reader I had suspected this character was there to continue the Stark line in the end, as the main line holding Winterfell)

Well if he lives, he be very wild, I wouldn't be surprised the boat seen crashed on rocks is his; also Shaggy Dog ? : )

[Colorful Mess]

I hate speculating on characters and their fertility, but after the severe gut wound Arya sustained in S6...is she ok??

[amandawoods]

Anyone find it weird that Gendry doesn't mention Arya in their talks.  Especially since Jon just found out that she's alive in Winterfell.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by amandawoods

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Michelle Clapton is specifically referring to Littlefinger as the one she is effectively armouring herself against. Sansa has been dressed in wildly different styles at various points, and S8, especially late S8 (after the White Walkers have been defeated?) may be very different again.

The lines this season (as of ep4) are pretty neutral on the Tyrion/Sansa marriage (and also on Sandor/Sansa, I suppose); it has been mentioned and Tyrion even asked if Sansa missed him, not sure if this was entirely meant to be a joke.

So far, it looks like Sansa is headed to be lady of Winterfell. With Rickon dead (a shock to me, as a book reader I had suspected this character was there to continue the Stark line in the end, as the main line holding Winterfell), Sansa will need heirs or else she will have to count on Arya providing those for her. Which does seem to indicate she will likely need to marry at some points, and the show has left few viable candidates. It would be ironic if it were Gendry, if he would marry a Stark it should be Arya. I suppose they may introduce some northern or Vale lordling in S8, but would they wait so long for that?

I don't think the show needs to address the Stark girls' marital status if it doesn't want to.  Sansa and Arya will be, I guess, around 20 and 18 by the end of the show, or possibly younger (passage of time being ambiguous).  If their love interests aren't major characters, no need to rush that in.

Just now, amandawoods said:

Anyone find it weird that Gendry doesn't mention Arya in their talks.  Especially since Jon just found out that she's alive in Winterfell.  

Extremely.  The idea that they bond over talking about Ned and Robert is borderline absurd, honestly, in comparison to their much stronger mutual acquaintance with Arya.

Looking over the script, I guess it's Sansa's turn to be the merciful one, while Arya wants to execute bannermen for getting annoyed with Jon.  Also, Arya's been at Winterfell for some period of time but hasn't noticed until this point that Sansa is occupying the lord's chamber (I guess it's the lady's chamber, now).

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well if he lives, he be very wild, I wouldn't be surprised the boat seen crashed on rocks is his; also Shaggy Dog ? : )

No, it wouldn't be surprising if that's his boat, but like you pointed out, Rickon might be too wild, probably because he can't control his warging and Shaggy's personality is/has taken over him.

4 minutes ago, amandawoods said:

Anyone find it weird that Gendry doesn't mention Arya in their talks.  Especially since Jon just found out that she's alive in Winterfell.  

Right? No Arya mention, no Maester Aemon mention...

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

One: Sansa like Margery was hated by her and she still hates her.

Two: in books Sansa had three wishes/ dreams: Ahero taking J Slynt's head- Check, Sept of Balior to be destroyed -check , Twin towers going down ( this could be houses Lannisters and Tyrells )-check.

3. Cersei is a dumb, evil twit, she hated the Starks, when young, she hated them in KL, she hates them still she wants Sansa's head, Sansa's fears to Jon aren't idle, they're real, as real as the mad women sitting in KL.

In her mind as long as Sansa's alive the Starks are threats to her.

4: Illyn Payne-m is roaming around.

1. Not only did Margaret become the young queen from the prophecy in Cersei's  mind, but she was also trying to get rid of Cersei. She posed a very real threat to Cersei.

2. Show is the show, books are the books.

3. I'm not saying Cersei won't kill Sansa if they encounter  one another, I'm saying she won't was resources or time hunting her down .  She'd target jon before she targets sansa.

4. Payne is so irrelevant  at this point that he's not  even on Arya's list anymore.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

By that logic, what are the grounds of annulling Rhaegar and Elia's marriage? There's no question about the marriage being consummated. The annulment is invalid and that makes his 'marriage' to Lyanna a sham and Jon a bastard. 

Annulment can mean whatever the writers of the show want it to, I guess.

[Wouter]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't think the show needs to address the Stark girls' marital status if it doesn't want to.  Sansa and Arya will be, I guess, around 20 and 18 by the end of the show, or possibly younger (passage of time being ambiguous).  If their love interests aren't major characters, no need to rush that in.

 

That's true. I would think it likely that the books (maybe by way of a Bran vision, or a chapter set years forward in time) would want to establish that the Starks survived the war and didn't die out, and maybe D&D would also want to do so.

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

One: Sansa like Margery was hated by her and she still hates her.

Two: in books Sansa had three wishes/ dreams: Ahero taking J Slynt's head- Check, Sept of Balior to be destroyed -check , Twin towers going down ( this could be houses Lannisters and Tyrells )-check.

3. Cersei is a dumb, evil twit, she hated the Starks, when young, she hated them in KL, she hates them still she wants Sansa's head, Sansa's fears to Jon aren't idle, they're real, as real as the mad women sitting in KL.

In her mind as long as Sansa's alive the Starks are threats to her.

4: Illyn Payne-m is roaming around.

Two: this is a nice observation. Jon taking Slynt's head happened more or less by accident in the books (Martin had originally wanted to have him hanged from the wall, but abandoned the idea as being too unlikely/unpractical), but with the show blowing up the sept of Baelor Sansa's wishes do seem to have a way to come true, even if she didn't intend it that way. The joining castles (Tyrell and Lannister) in the cloud ending up ruined seems to be very likely to happen, as it already mostly has on the show.

[GrailKing]

27 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

No, it wouldn't be surprising if that's his boat, but like you pointed out, Rickon might be too wild, probably because he can't control his warging and Shaggy's personality is/has taken over him.

Not to mention Rickon could be a shaggy dog story.

19 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

4. Payne is so irrelevant  at this point that he's not  even on Arya's list anymore.

He's not to Sansa, he haunts her dreams.

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Wouter said:

That's true. I would think it likely that the books (maybe by way of a Bran vision, or a chapter set years forward in time) would want to establish that the Starks survived the war and didn't die out, and maybe D&D would also want to do so.

It's possible that if they do some kind of flash-forward we'll see future generations of Starks without getting into who the daddy was.

[magdalene]

I like Dickon  and I know the actor from other things and if Dany really kills Dickon by burning him alive with dragon fire  I'll be rooting for her death. I hope she never gets to rule and I hope somebody kills her like her nasty and insane father. I never liked her and her gigantic ego and entitlement much but this Dickon thing makes me loathe her.

[amandawoods]

Quote

And yes, I said that Arya has human faces in her bag, and yes, Sansa finds then and she is shocked, and Arya plays with Sansa a weird game about telling the truth because she wants to know Sansa's opinion about Jon and Cersei. It may be an absurd theory, but who knows, it may end being true.

What does this mean?  

[SimoneS]

38 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I like Dickon  and I know the actor from other things and if Dany really kills Dickon by burning him alive with dragon fire  I'll be rooting for her death. I hope she never gets to rule and I hope somebody kills her like her nasty and insane father. I never liked her and her gigantic ego and entitlement much but this Dickon thing makes me loathe her.

Hey, it is the GoT even traitors like the Tarlys have fans. In contrast, I hope he and his despicable father suffer when they are burnt alive because they betrayed the Tyrells and helped the Lannisters kill Olenna.

Edited August 11, 2017 by SimoneS

[Oscirus]

49 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Hey, it is the GoT even traitors like the Tarlys have fans. In contrast, I hope he and his despicable father suffer when they are burnt alive because they betrayed the Tyrells and helped the Lannisters kill Olenna.

As opposed to traitors like the tyrells who poison their allies? Tyrells deserved every thing they got for that bit of arrogance.

[SimoneS]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As opposed to traitors like the tyrells who poison their allies? Tyrells deserved every thing they got for that bit of arrogance.

The Tyrells never swore an oath to serve the Lannisters. They were allies which is completely different as far as I am concerned.  IMO, Olenna had every right to protect Margaery from that cruel sadomasochist Joffrey. I also don't see how Loras or Margaery imprisoned by that judgemental homophobe "deserved everything that they got," but I don't think that I have ever agreed with any of your opinions about this show so this is nothing new.

Edited August 11, 2017 by SimoneS

[shireenbamfatheon]

Is taking the black not an option anymore? You'd think the NW would be in need of recruits now more than ever.

[Colorful Mess]

Yeah, or prisoners of war. Geez.

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

The Tyrells never swore an oath to serve the Lannisters. They were allies which is completely different as far as I am concerned.  IMO, Olenna had every right to protect Margaery from that cruel sadomasochist Joffrey. I also don't see how Loras or Margaery imprisoned by that judgemental homophobe "deserved everything that they got," but I don't think that I have ever agreed with any of your opinions about this show so this is nothing new.

And they had every right to betray Olean na for supporting the foreign invaders on this land.  You don't consult with your people before making big moves, that's what happens. 

[YaddaYadda]

This Dickon is just a muscular, taller version of Sam. Sam loses all composure when he thinks of his father. I think Randyll is a worse father than Tywin and I think Tywin is a shit father. 

I don't know what Dickon is trying to prove, but it's a dumb way to die. 

I really wanna know though, what's the difference between the battle of Blackwater where the river was set on fire by Tyrion and people were burned alive and what happened in the latest battle. Is it because it was a raining down fire? Or is it because of the person who was on the back of the dragon? And the people who were captured in the aftermath of the Blackwater were beheaded if they didn't bend the knee. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[anamika]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 I hope he and his despicable father suffer when they are burnt alive because they betrayed the Tyrells and helped the Lannisters kill Olenna.

If they get hit directly by dragonfire, they should turn to ashes in a few seconds

They would not even know what hit them.

Or maybe Dany asks for a slow roast from Drogon...

1 hour ago, doram said:

The actor will appear in other shows and you can enjoy him there

I have seen him in Merlin, but he really did not stand out for me in GOT. All that armor made his head look disproportionately tiny on his huge body.

Dickon also saved Jaime's life. He deserves to be barbecued  just for that. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

It's possible that if they do some kind of flash-forward we'll see future generations of Starks without getting into who the daddy was.

I doubt it. We'll get a Jonerys baby in "current" time in Season 8 along with Baby Sam, and that's it. Harry Potter this ain't.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Eyes High

[Katsullivan]

15 hours ago, ursula said:

He was the product of the affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna. That makes him illegitimate. The “marriage” between these two is a sham marriage because Rhaegar was still married to Elia at the time.

If Rhaegar was practising polygamy, it would be a different thing which is still arguable because there's a reason that it hasn't been practised since Aegon I. However that's not the case because Jon's "legitimacy" is based on an annulment that was illegal because Rhaegar doesn’t have any right to annul that marriage, and there was no basis for it. First, it was a legitimate marriage, consummated with children. Second, Rhaegar was not the King and he had no authority. The only person that could have granted him a divorce was the King of Westerns himself. 

In addition, Aerys declared Viserys his heir while Rhaegar’s children were still alive, bypassing Rhaegar’s line permanently. He was actually crowned on Dragonstone when news came of Aerys’s death by the Knights protecting him and Rhaella. That’s why he was called King Viserys III. Which made Daenerys Viserys’s heir after he died and she became Queen Daenerys. 

Even if Jon had been legitimate, then it would still be a question of whether Viserys’s nephew was closer to the Throne than his sister, and you have King Aerys's appointment of Viserys as heir, over Rhaegar's children to deal with which as King, he had the right to do, bumping Jon further down that line.

TL DR… Jon isn’t the rightful owner of the Iron Throne. Daenerys Targaryen is. 

??? Wish I could give this a ? likes.

[Advance35]

Quote

I like Dickon  and I know the actor from other things and if Dany really kills Dickon by burning him alive with dragon fire  I'll be rooting for her death. I hope she never gets to rule and I hope somebody kills her like her nasty and insane father. I never liked her and her gigantic ego and entitlement much but this Dickon thing makes me loathe her.

They gave him a little dimension, maybe because it's TH in the role.  And the dimension they gave him makes him marginally likable to some of us.  It's similar to what they did with the Lannister soldiers a few episodes ago.  TH was awesome in Black Sails and I think his thespian skills far outshine those of Ms. Clarke and Mr. Harrington.  I lament that the domino effect will not have time to be explored in that my executing Randyll and Dickon (probably more the latter) Dany and all who are allied with her have made mortal enemies out of Sam's mother and his sister, who I have know doubt loved Dickon if not his father.   It would put Sam in quite the predicament if he were to come around Horn Hill singing the praises of The Mother of Dragons and the Upjumped Bastard of Winterfell.  I would expect Sam to have a problem with the murder of his Father and Brother if for no reason then on behalf of his Mother and Sister but I'm sure all of that will be swept under the rug for the supposed once in a lifetime heroine.

[SimoneS]

27 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

  I lament that the domino effect will not have time to be explored in that my executing Randyll and Dickon (probably more the latter) Dany and all who are allied with her have made mortal enemies out of Sam's mother and his sister, who I have know doubt loved Dickon if not his father.   It would put Sam in quite the predicament if he were to come around Horn Hill singing the praises of The Mother of Dragons and the Upjumped Bastard of Winterfell.  I would expect Sam to have a problem with the murder of his Father and Brother if for no reason then on behalf of his Mother and Sister but I'm sure all of that will be swept under the rug for the supposed once in a lifetime heroine.

It has nothing to do with anything being swept under the rug. What exactly do you think that Sam, his mother and sister can do about Daenerys executing the father and Dickon for treason? How do you see that story playing out? Sam wielding his Valyrian sword against Daenerys? I have no doubt that they will be conflicted, but families with members who commit treason are usually grateful if they don't lose their titles or lands. They don't go around attacking their ruler and bringing attention to themselves.

Edited August 11, 2017 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

Has the show ever specified what the grounds for an annulment are? (I honestly can't recall). It seems like marriage can just be swept under the rug a bit given the Tyrion / Sansa issue.

i think we are supposed to take Bran's word that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne as being correct. However, I don't see it mattering in the end given Dany and Jon have a massive love boner for each other and seem likely to co-rule as equals with their little Targ babies in tow.

[Moxie Cat]

At the risk of jumping into the Dickon battle, here's my two cents: the current actor is too old for the part, and that's part of the problem.

The actor is 32 and he looks it, in a good way, mind you - but like an adult, mature man. But much of the dialogue has implied that he is much younger. For example, his exchange with Jamie about not being in a battle before. First of all, his bashful reaction felt off for his age. And secondly, how can this be his first battle? Why wasn't he involved with Renly's endeavor, or the attempts to rescue the Tyrells from the High Sparrow, if he's as old as he looks? And also - if he's heir to Horn Hill and clearly an adult, why isn't he married? You'd think the old man would have wanted offspring by now.

For my money, the character would have been more believable and ultimately more tragic in episode 5 if he were presented as an inexperienced kid in his first adult situation. I could buy that a kid in his early twenties, who would have been too young to fight for Renly, would stick to his father's doggedness here, even to his own death. And Dany's roasting of him would definitely feel far worse to the audience.

But an adult who should be able to think for himself? I like the actor and hope to see him elsewhere, but Dickon made his bed.

[Lemuria]

Quote

The Tyrells never swore an oath to serve the Lannisters. They were allies which is completely different as far as I am concerned.  IMO, Olenna had every right to protect Margaery from that cruel sadomasochist Joffrey. I also don't see how Loras or Margaery imprisoned by that judgemental homophobe "deserved everything that they got," but I don't think that I have ever agreed with any of your opinions about this show so this is nothing new.

But the person they poisoned was the king--and that is treason.  I am second to none in my dislike for Joffrey but he was the king.  Even more, Olenna let two innocent people take the blame for it, both of whom could have ended up being executed.  And it should be noted that Tyrion's trial ended up with the ruler of Dorne and an innocent girl being killed (along with Oberyn, of course).  Olenna chose to enter the Game--she clearly intended to marry Margery to whoever was the king of Westeros.  Well, how does it go?  "When you play the Game, you either win or you die."  She knew the risks if she failed, and she did fail.

Interestingly, she could have had an alliance with Cersei, who came to her asking for help against the Sparrow and the Faith Militant.  Olenna told her to get lost and IIRC said something along the lines of Cersei having so many enemies, what was she going to do, kill them all?

Can't you just hear Cersei, drinking her wine and watching the Sept blow up, chuckling and thinking, "Why, yes, Lady Olenna, I think I will.  Thank you for the suggestion"?

I liked Olenna Tyrell but she wasn't really a very nice person and in the end, she wasn't nearly as smart a player as she--and the audience--thought she was.

 

There are a lot of claims that any annulment Rhaegar got would be illegal or invalid or illegitimate.  What is this actually based on?  We know nothing about Westerosi customs or laws in regard to annulments and subsequent re-marriages.  Plus, Westeros isn't a government of laws as we think of that today.  It's an absolute monarchy, and that meant that the King or the Crown Prince (if the King did not disagree) could abrogate any "law" at will.  Sure, it may cause trouble--see, Robert's Rebellion, supra--but it's their absolute right to do it.  

I agree that the fact that Arthur Dayne and two other Kingsguard whose job it was to protect the Crown Prince and his family were neither with the Prince at the Trident nor with Elia Martell and the sprouts, but were instead guarding Lyanna and her baby, is a neon sign that this child was not a bastard.

Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy and with producing the Prince Who Was Promised.  In Westeros, bastards have nothing, including rank.  Rhaegar accomplished nothing if Jon was a bastard; he had to be legitimate to be a Prince.

 

PS I don't believe Dickon saved Jaime; I think Bronn did.  Dickon was wearing pretty heavy-looking armor, too, and would likely sink the way Jaime did.  Bronn had stripped down before using the Scorpion.  I also think they made Dickon likeable because very few people would have objected to Drogon having Randall "let's flog the stragglers and then I can go hunt my useless older son down" Tarly as an appetizer.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Lemuria

[screamin]

50 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

 

There are a lot of claims that any annulment Rhaegar got would be illegal or invalid or illegitimate.  What is this actually based on?  We know nothing about Westerosi customs or laws in regard to annulments and subsequent re-marriages.  Plus, Westeros isn't a government of laws as we think of that today.  It's an absolute monarchy, and that meant that the King or the Crown Prince (if the King did not disagree) could abrogate any "law" at will.  Sure, it may cause trouble--see, Robert's Rebellion, supra--but it's their absolute right to do it.  

I agree that the fact that Arthur Dayne and two other Kingsguard whose job it was to protect the Crown Prince and his family were neither with the Prince at the Trident nor with Elia Martell and the sprouts, but were instead guarding Lyanna and her baby, is a neon sign that this child was not a bastard.

Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy and with producing the Prince Who Was Promised.  In Westeros, bastards have nothing, including rank.  Rhaegar accomplished nothing if Jon was a bastard; he had to be legitimate to be a Prince.

 

An annulment legally means a marriage was NEVER legally valid. Ergo, it can make the children of such an annulled marriage bastards. That has far-reaching legal ramifications. The father is entitled to his dowry back, lines of inheritance are totally rearranged. The Catholic church (which parallels the Faith of the Seven in the books) always refers such decisions on whether a request for an annulment is granted to a tribunal. The idea that a priest would grant an annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia , thus gaining the enmity of Dorne due to knocking her kids out of the line of succession, potentially causing a war - just on his own authority, without even asking the superior he must answer to, is IMO unbelievable. If we go on Anglican lines and say that the Church answers to the crown as its head, you run into the problem that you need Aerys' permission for this, and Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar  - certainly not enough to help him cause a war between 3 high lords and the crown. Honestly, I'd find it more believable that a priest was coerced into performing a second polygamous marriage than an annulment with such implications. And Rhaegar said, 'The dragon has 3 heads' ...if illegitimacy is unacceptable for Jon, it's also unacceptable if Rhaenys and Little Aegon were made illegitimate by the annulment of their mother's wedding.

[MadMouse]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Has the show ever specified what the grounds for an annulment are? (I honestly can't recall). It seems like marriage can just be swept under the rug a bit given the Tyrion / Sansa issue.

i think we are supposed to take Bran's word that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne as being correct. However, I don't see it mattering in the end given Dany and Jon have a massive love boner for each other and seem likely to co-rule as equals with their little Targ babies in tow.

I don't think they'll go into any detail about the annulment, they could mention Elia's health and not being able to have any more children as a  valid reason but I doubt. They'll probably go the star crossed lovers/ true love route with Rheagar and Lyanna.