Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

Sansa was adamant in her belief that having the Stark name would win them allies, "People will still risk everything for it". She thought the Tullys would back them "without question". She tried to play the Stark card with Lord Glover but he wasn't having any of it. I think that this way of thinking is a result of spending so many years in the South. 

...

What I find so annoying at the prospect of S7 being LF/Sansa vs Jon is that it's bringing something that I've always hated about South ("playing the game") to the Northern storyline.

Regarding this line of thought, "playing the game" is not something unique to the southern kingdom.  And Sansa thinking the Stark name was valuable isn't some sign of spending time in the south; literally everybody in the show has been saying that about the Stark name, and in particular about her, for several seasons.  That was the justification for why everybody was always passing her around like a trading card.  Indeed, you see that as late as 601-602, where Roose Bolton is furious with Ramsay and and telling him how dumb he is because losing Sansa means they'll lose the support of the other houses, etc.  Except that, of course, none of that happens, because the writers wanted the Starks to be totally outmatched at Snowbowl.  And then, once the season ends, all the Northern lords are like "woo, Stark men forever, we were totally cowards for not backing you!"

1 hour ago, amandawoods said:

Any spec on Arya heading north or south?  Is she going to meet up with Mel/Sandor/Brotherhood.  I always thought her last two kills; Cersei and Mountain would be accomplished by Jamie and Sandor.  

Her meeting Mel has been prophesied, so that's definitely happening.

For a while I was assuming that both Arya and Bran would return to Winterfell fairly speedily in Season 7, but increasingly I don't think that'll happen, partly because I think they'd get in the way of the drama being set up at Winterfell.  In Arya's case, there's a sufficient cluster of characters in the Riverlands for her to kill some time with (and many of those same characters would also get in the way of the drama at Winterfell), and the way D&D talked about being concerned about Arya's reaction to killing Walder Frey kind of suggests she is going to favour finishing up her list over reuniting with anybody.  Conversely, though, that kind of seems like a narrative dead-end to me, since Arya can't kill Cersei.

[paigow]

Did Show!Hound tell Arya about Baelish betraying Ned? If not, LF is not even on the Kill List.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, paigow said:

Did Show!Hound tell Arya about Baelish betraying Ned? 

No.  He'd have no reason to mention that (same reason he never said anything to Sansa).

Littlefinger isn't on the kill list (which is now down to two people).  She did see him once at Harrenhal, so she knows he was associated with the Lannisters, but if she met him now and seemingly on the Stark side, probably she wouldn't push that.

[Audreythe2nd]

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Conversely, though, that kind of seems like a narrative dead-end to me, since Arya can't kill Cersei.

Why can't Arya kill Cersei? I agree with the rest of what you said though, that there are a bunch of characters who can't be at Winterfell just yet, and I do believe that Arya's "tragedy" will be that the lure of revenge will be stronger than the calls of home (for the time being). 

 

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Did Show!Hound tell Arya about Baelish betraying Ned? If not, LF is not even on the Kill List.

You know, that is one of those silly things, that LF didn't come up in the Hound's time in Arya's company. But it might be that he's triggered to tell Sansa that it was LF that betrayed her father when he SEES Sansa in LF's alliance. Kind of like, "Uh... you know he held a knife to your dad in the throne room, right?"

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Why can't Arya kill Cersei?

Because Jaime is fated to do that.

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You know, that is one of those silly things, that LF didn't come up in the Hound's time in Arya's company.

I wouldn't say that's silly.  Why would Littlefinger have been a point of discussion?  They never interacted with him.

Edited June 29, 2016 by SeanC

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No.  He'd have no reason to mention that (same reason he never said anything to Sansa).

I thought the Hound was annoyed by her constant recitation of the list...and he would have said something like: "Silly girl! Baelish gave your daddy to Joffrey."

[Audreythe2nd]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Because Jaime is fated to do that.

Oh. Yeah, well I don't believe that. At this stage there are so many people to do the deed and ways for Cersei to die that I think Jaime is the least likely of them. But Arya is the most likely I think. With Arya, she IS her list. And the show has whittled that short list down to just two names (more on the long list). If she doesn't try to continue with that list, especially now that Cersei is Queen, then what's the point of all her training and getting herself to this point? What would she actually do if she was reunited with Jon and Sansa at Winterfell? Story-wise, it doesn't make sense. She's going to continue choosing revenge for a little while longer I think.

With the Littlefinger thing, that's why I corrected and said that seeing Sansa and LF will trigger Sandor to say something, whereas he didn't have that trigger with Arya.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[sunflower]

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Jon & Bran see the big picture and will be fighting to save humanity; Sansa is fighting for what she thinks she is owed.

Her motivations are so muddled, and really didn't play on screen.  Are we trying desperately to explain bad writing or did D & D make it purposefully muddled?  It's just so stupid, Jon is clearly a good guy, possibly the most decent main character on the show, with Davos as the best good guy supporting character.  Sansa/LF fucking with them for power, if it is that?  I don't want to watch that.  We're nearing end game times in the show with the WWs and there's only like 13-15 episodes left.  I'm afraid Sansa is going to die doing this shit.  I'm trying to figure out GRRM's end game for Sansa.  I think her best bet, if she lives, is ending up with Tyrion.  

Edited June 29, 2016 by sunflower

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Oh. Yeah, well I don't believe that. At this stage there are so many people to do the deed and ways for Cersei to die that I think Jaime is the least likely of them.

The valonqar prophecy is a fairly plain signal that it's Jaime.  610 even (finally) ends with Jaime looking at Cersei with grave concern.  He slew one wildfire-slinging mad monarch; and now he's facing another.

6 minutes ago, sunflower said:

I think her best bet, if she lives, is ending up with Tyrion.  

GRRM's depiction of Sansa and Tyrion's time together was pretty clear on their personal incompatibility, even aside from circumstances.  Neither understands or is all that suited for the other.

Edited June 29, 2016 by SeanC

[Minneapple]

I still think Tyrion could be the valonqar. Jaime is probably the stronger candidate, but I wouldn't rule out Tyrion 100 percent just yet. 

[previoususername]

18 hours ago, FemmyV said:

People make the mistake of thinking con men — confidence men — operate by getting you to take them into your confidence. That's wrong. The con operates by taking the victim into the predator's confidence, ie, "You can't tell anyone, but ..." You can't tell anyone, but some day I want to sit on the Iron Throne.

That's... exactly what I said. 

Baelish confided his personal desire to be king to Sansa. My point was that the actual expression of that desire to Sansa is part of his plan. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by previoususername

[CrashTextDummie]

Let me first say that I'm supremely excited about where the show left of and what's in store next. Almost everyone has picked a side and the endgame is becoming clearer. Euron is technically a wildcard, but he's most definitely neither team Dany nor team Stark, which kind of makes him Team Cersei by default. He is looking to marry a queen, and one just conveniently became available. I expect yet another royal wedding to take place (to the further detriment of the Cersei/Jaime relationship). Arya is currently on team Revenge and just based on his personality, I think it's likely the Hound is team revenge also. I think in terms of narrative it makes a lot of sense for these two to return to King's Landing (going full circle) and being involved in the Mountain's ultimate demise. After that there's nowhere left for Sandor to go, so he may not survive the encounter. I believe that leaves only Melisandre with no clear path forward, though I think she'll be team Jon until the end.

Given that Cersei literally ascended to being the ultimate human villain, there's no way in hell she will be dispensed with easily. I think she may even survive the next season, if only because I'm not sure how the conflict with the Night King can sustain the final season on its own. I expect her to deal a great deal of damage to team humanity, and there are a couple of frontrunners: Houses Dorne and Tyrell have no real role to play up north, so I don't see them surviving the Battle of the Queens. And King's Landing itself will almost certainly not survive Cersei's reign either, in accordance with Dany's prophecy. Humanity's last stand will be made at Winterfell, so the White Walkers won't even make it to KL, leaving its destruction to wildfire. If Euron is involved as expected, I also think Yara's chances of survival are pretty slim.

[Audreythe2nd]

I don't like that there are no other options that can be considered other than Jaime, when the show is projecting more than one. They left out the valonqar prophecy and kept in the YMBQ. So maybe it's Daenerys.On the other hand, GRRM likes the self-fulfilling aspect of prophecies the best, so maybe it's Tyrion because Cersei willed it to be so by hating him so much. Maybe it's Arya, because as I said above, that list of hers kind of seems to be a *thing* for her, and training to be a super assassin is useful if you plan on killing a Mad Queen. They might even change what happens in the books. They might not even make it the same person. IMO, half the irony of Cersei burning the place down has already happened to Jaime - he killed a king and destroyed his reputation so that his sister could turn around and use that wildfire and become a mad queen anyway when he wasn't there. He doesn't have to kill her for this story to be effective at this point - he just needs to betray/leave her and that will serve the same purpose. And again, we don't even know if the show is doing Cersei's death the same way! The prophecy isn't even there! I just like talking about different options that the show could very much be projecting - there's not just one, and I hate talking about the story as if there is only one option, period.

[SeanC]

Just now, Audreythe2nd said:

I don't like that there are no other options that can be considered other than Jaime, when the show is projecting more than one. They left out the valonqar prophecy and kept in the YMBQ. 

I don't think the omission of the valonqar prophecy is significant.  It's much more direct than the YMBQ prophecy, and guarantees Cersei's death.  I can't imagine the writers changing such a significant moment, when it is the literal endpoint of Cersei's arc.

[Audreythe2nd]

What will be interesting to hear about is filming spoilers about whereabouts of more than one character. For instance, if we get info that Jaime is off somewhere with the Lannister army (as he stated this season, he expected to command all the Lannister forces soon) with Cersei still alive and in KL with a spoiler for it being at the end of the season, that will be a very interesting wrinkle. I'm very curious/excited for the off-season filming leaks actually. They will tell us a lot being so close to the final season.

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I can't imagine the writers changing such a significant moment, when it is the literal endpoint of Cersei's arc.

They might, if there was some reason they thought they logistically couldn't do it with how they are structuring the story. That she dies seems to be the key thing here.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

They might, if there was some reason they thought they logistically couldn't do it with how they are structuring the story. That she dies seems to be the key thing here.

Jaime killing Cersei would be such a huge thing for both characters that I can't imagine changing it.  I have a hard time seeing how they could structure the story in a way to prevent that; if anything, they've excised stuff from Jaime's story keeping him away from KL and rushed him back to Cersei again.

[Minneapple]

I can also see Cersei surviving to the final season, mostly because the writers seem to love her so much. She's got a little bit of that *plot armor* going on, losing an actress like Lena Headey would be a big deal (and if it's say, Jaime who kills her in sacrifice, then dies in return, they lose another big actor in Nikolaj Coster-Waldau).

I've been thinking about what Lyanna said to Ned just before they handed the baby over. Have any lipreaders decoded her words? Or is it like the season 1 Felicity finale, when JJ Abrams just had Keri Russell say some random words so nobody could decode where she was going? Maybe, since Isaac Hempstead-Wright is going to be at Comic Con, someone will ask him.

[Audreythe2nd]

Look, for the sake of argument, let's say the solution to the valonqar prophecy in the books is the one that the wording, syntax, and context clues actually tell us that it is: the wording suggests some kind of undead Tommen. I don't want to go through why the wording suggests that, almost resolutely - there have been plenty of people who have analyzed it online and it's a good argument. If GRRM's solution is that Tommen dies (maybe Cersei kills him) and he rises from the dead to strangle her, or Qyburn reanimates him, or Arya wears his face to kill her, then I can see why D&D would say, "We're not going to do that. We're going to do something else." Yes, Tommen is dead and possibly burned in the show. But again, the valonqar prophecy is not in the show. And wording wise, in the books, Tommen is basically the really clear and elegant solution to that prophecy.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[Audreythe2nd]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jaime killing Cersei would be such a huge thing for both characters that I can't imagine changing it.

Can you imagine them changing Sansa not being at the Vale but rather Winterfell, marrying Ramsay Bolton and losing her virginity to him instead of whatever happens in the books, orchestrating a large-scale revenge against him and watching him be fed to his dogs? Because I'm pretty sure all that happened and was a huge change for that character as well.

The prophecy says that Cersei dies. Ultimately the important part might simply be that Cersei dies, not how she dies, and if they don't like how she dies in the books, they might have changed it (thus the exclusion of the prophecy). Like they changed Sansa's arc. That's all I'm trying to argue.

ETA: Look, it's no secret that I don't want it to be Jaime, because I don't think it fits other parts of his story very well (and in the books, I really, really don't see how it's Jaime). I will accept it if it is, but from what I'm watching, he's not the 100% clear candidate yet, as everyone thinks he is.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[jjjmoss]

It doesn't necessarily change her endgame though. How Cersei dies would.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Can you imagine them changing Sansa not being at the Vale but rather Winterfell, marrying Ramsay Bolton and losing her virginity to him instead of whatever happens in the books, orchestrating a large-scale revenge against him and watching him be fed to his dogs? Because I'm pretty sure all that happened and was a huge change for that character as well.

That was a big change to her ongoing story, but I expect Sansa will end up with the vague outline of the ending of her book counterpart (e.g., being married to the Hound, or whatever else), and D&D basically seem to view the Winterfell story as an alternative means of following her "player" arc will also servicing a bunch of other plots.  There's no way that Cersei's killer is not themselves a significant character, and such an interaction would be crucial to their arc as well; for the character's finale, that's too big a thing to change, in my view.

[Audreythe2nd]

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There's no way that Cersei's killer is not themselves a significant character, and such an interaction would be crucial to their arc as well; for the character's finale, that's too big a thing to change, in my view.

I disagree, because we don't for sure (like 100% for sure) if the valonqar is a significant character; there is nothing to tell us that. We don't know if that character has their own arc. We don't know anything except what the prophecy (in.the.books.only) told us. If it isn't a significant character in the books (and why would it have to be? GRRM likes pulling rug out by having characters killed by those we don't necessarily expect to kill them - he doesn't always seem to like one to one revenge tales), then I can see why the showrunners may have decided to change it, but still have Cersei dying. Which is the important part.

But whatever. Everyone thinks Jaime is the valonqar. I get it. I just wish we could talk about what we think happens to him afterwards (aside from him also committing suicide) once in awhile without it being the only about that. He's an interesting character, who might end up being important beyond Cersei. He's dynamic, with some complex diplomatic skills (both book and show), he's clearly conflicted about his family's alliances and senseless violence, in the books he was also gifted a very interesting weirwood dream (that ended up having nothing to do with Cersei), and has one of the best potential romantic relationships in the story with Brienne. He's a cool character, and he's being set up for things that go beyond his potential valonqar status - they are just never discussed.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[jjjmoss]

Personally I find him uninteresting and insignificant outside of Cersei.

But I don't like any of the male characters besides Renly and maybe Tywin, so. 

[Umbelina]

Do we know if GRRM even told them how Cersei dies?

I mean how much is confirmed that GRRM even said to them?

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, sunflower said:

Her motivations are so muddled, and really didn't play on screen.  Are we trying desperately to explain bad writing or did D & D make it purposefully muddled?  It's just so stupid, Jon is clearly a good guy, possibly the most decent main character on the show, with Davos as the best good guy supporting character.  Sansa/LF fucking with them for power, if it is that?  I don't want to watch that.  We're nearing end game times in the show with the WWs and there's only like 13-15 episodes left.  I'm afraid Sansa is going to die doing this shit.  I'm trying to figure out GRRM's end game for Sansa.  I think her best bet, if she lives, is ending up with Tyrion.  

I don't want to watch that either. What I'm hoping is that Sansa ends up playing Littlefinger and brings him down. I think she was happy for Jon being named KitN even if she did want some public recognition for her contribution. But I think it's not just that Jon has proven to be the good and honorable man that she feels she can trust, but also he's the one who keeps LF from using her for his power grab.

Unfortunately, that probably means Jon has a big ol' target on his back now and she knows it. Maybe her role in the upcoming season is to try to protect Jon from LF's machinations, whether by being the power behind the throne while Jon is leading an army or by trying to neutralize the threat in some other way. At least that's what I'm hoping. We have enough villains with LF, Cersei and Euron. Sansa can stay on the side of (relatively) Good. 

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

In terms of playing the game, LF is one of the best allies you can have.

I think Littlefinger doesn't have allies. He has people whose goals momentarily align with his own and people whose well being momentarily benefits him. That makes him a terrible ally because his focus is entirely on what he wants and he can turn on a dime. He may want Sansa beside him on the Iron Throne, but he wants the throne more, and he'd be perfectly content to sit alone on the throne if Sansa in any way serves as an impediment to him getting the throne or if doing anything to help her might get in the way of him getting the throne. He'd throw her under the bus without hesitation in order to get power, wealth, or position.

I have to say that I don't see what Sophie Turner seems to see in what was actually shown, and if that's what the writers were writing and informed her to play, they failed utterly in conveying that or in setting it up, and it's bad writing. It's setting Sansa back to her season one "but I want to be the queen" mode when she's seen by now that being queen is no picnic, and she's already seen Littlefinger use and discard people after pretending to care about them. She heard the noisy lovemaking with her aunt, and he dropped her through the Moon Door without blinking. Littlefinger's already sold her to the Boltons to advance his position. If she thinks that she's in any way safe with him, she's an idiot. Plus, considering that it was her position as the supposed heir to Winterfell that got her thrown into both of her unwanted marriages, you'd think she'd want nothing to do with the position as Lady of Winterfell. As long as she's considered to hold that position, she's someone people will want to marry in order to gain power and land -- and if it's someone like Ramsay, she's toast as soon as she has a kid. Right now, she might be a diplomatic match, but marrying her doesn't really get anyone anything as long as Jon is alive or has heirs of his own. He's the one with a target on his back, not her. It should be a relief to her to be out of the spotlight and out of the crosshairs for now.

So her resenting Jon for being named KITN and trusting Littlefinger makes zero sense for her as a character, given what she's gone through. You may as well skip all her supposed character development since season one.

[amandawoods]

I was reading an interview with Aiden Gillen and he said they didn't really get any notes on the last look between Petyr and Sansa.  He said that it was meant to be ambiguous.  I wonder why it was all explained in the after interviews.  

Found it interview

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I've been thinking about what Lyanna said to Ned just before they handed the baby over. Have any lipreaders decoded her words? Or is it like the season 1 Felicity finale, when JJ Abrams just had Keri Russell say some random words so nobody could decode where she was going? Maybe, since Isaac Hempstead-Wright is going to be at Comic Con, someone will ask him.

Someone on Reddit, I think mentioned that Lyanna said "his name is Jaehaerys". 

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Do we know if GRRM even told them how Cersei dies?

I mean how much is confirmed that GRRM even said to them?

They sat down between Seasons 3 and 4 and he explained where he saw the various characters going.  D&D said that he had clearer ideas about some people than others.  I can't imagine that he doesn't know who the valonqar is, and if so, that would be the sort of thing he would tell them.

18 minutes ago, amandawoods said:

I was reading an interview with Aiden Gillen and he said they didn't really get any notes on the last look between Petyr and Sansa.  He said that it was meant to be ambiguous.  I wonder why it was all explained in the after interviews.  

Found it interview

Turner also said it was meant to be opaque in one of her interviews, from what I recall.

[Advance35]

Hollywood Reporter

Quote

I think Sansa trusts Jon to make morally right decisions, but I'm not sure if she trusts him with the kind of political things. I don't know if she trusts Davos completely, and he's kind of his advisor. I think it's more about being open with each other, like with Sansa writing to Littlefinger for the Knights of the Vale. I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what's going on — and it's very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.

I thought this interview was a little more declarative although she get's really "Sophie Turner" towards the end. lol.  Seems like a very sweet girl but........lol.

I can see why she isn't very trusting of Jon doing what NEEDS to be done.  If she and LF want the same thing she knows LF won't balk at anything when it comes to getting it.   There are of course lines, that Jon Snow won't cross and maybe Sansa feels more secure aligned with someone who will do anything.   The Battle for Winterfell was won because of Littlefinger, though Jon fought bravely, without LF, Jon would be dead and Sansa would likely be back in Ramsay's custody, if she was unable to kill herself.

I also think it's a fair point.  I think Jon at heart is a good person and because of that, I don't think he would stand a chance against someone like Cersei.   I don't think he would have caught on that Cersei would have wildfire a Holy Sept (even more worldly Margaery caught on too late) and I think Sansa keeps things like that in mind these days.   She warned Jon about Ramsay doing something to draw him out but she knows there are certain things Jon would never/could never turn away from.   She also knows that quite a few of their enemies can/would/will use that against him.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Advance35

[FemmyV]

It's going to take the Hound, Jamie, Brienne and Mel combined to bring down the Mountain, and at least one is not going to make it. It may be that the best they can do is distract him long enough to get to Cersei. And then there's Qyburn to contend with.

[Audreythe2nd]

Arya should kill Qyburn and wear his face. That should do the trick for distraction (for both Cersei and the Mountain).

Edited June 30, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[lmsweb]

I see Sansa as not wanting to be the one everyone's eyes are on. She of all people has seen what happens to those who hold the most visible power - Robb, Lysa, Joffrey, Robert, Ramsay, Roose, etc. Even her own father, to be honest. The books are much clearer on how much Sansa is learning/has learned by watching Littlefinger and from his guidance.  To be the public figurehead is to put a ginormous target on herself - which is the last thing she wants or needs.
She has shown though that she knows how to manipulate - like her performance in front of the Lords of the Vale when Lysa went sky diving without a parachute. I went back and rewatched that scene and it was magnificent. She parroted the line about Joffrey being her one true love and stuck to that line with everyone. Remember the scene at the Battle of the Blackwater, with her and Cersei in the Red Keep and Sansa is comforting and leading the other ladies in prayer while Cersei is getting hilariously drunk? That is where her gifts lie. I have no doubt that she will have a very busy season next year manipulating and handling things behind the scenes while being the Lady of Winterfell.

On a side note, that whole episode of scenes between Cersei and Sansa are some of the best. Not going to lie, as horrible as Cersei is, drunk Cersei is my kind of Friday night friend.

[Minneapple]

Jaehaerys is a Targaryen name I would accept for Jon. You know nothing, Jaehaerys. Hmmm. I'm just curious why they cut that audio out and made us focus on Bran's oh-so-shocked face instead. Still leaving some intrigue into the Tower of Joy and the mystery of Lyanna/Rhaegar, I suppose. 

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

It's going to take the Hound, Jamie, Brienne and Mel combined to bring down the Mountain, and at least one is not going to make it.

That would be a hell of fight that I'd love to see. I think people will try to kill the Mountain but will fail until Dany shows up with her dragons. I imagine since the Mountain is a sort of magical undead creature, it will take dragon fire to kill him.

25 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Jaehaerys is a Targaryen name I would accept for Jon. You know nothing, Jaehaerys.

LOL, "You know nothing, Jaehaerys Targaryen" just doesn't have the same ring to it. 

[jjjmoss]

Checked through IMDB and there are currently 2 characters who've appeared in at least 10% of the whole series, but not in S6 at all: Gendry and Hot Pie. At least we saw the latter once in S4 and can presume he's still at the inn. I wanna see them both again though.

[bluvelvet]

If Jon has a Targaryen first name, that implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna discussed and came up with a name together. If Lyanna was abducted and raped, I don't see her giving her son a Targaryen first name. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by bluvelvet
Spelling correction

[GrailKing]

On 6/26/2016 at 11:47 PM, SeanC said:

In the North, meanwhile, they're pretty obviously signposting Littlefinger stirring up shit in the Stark camp and pitting Jon v. Sansa for his own benefit.  Much like the above, there's a number of different things moving outside of this plotline you would think might disrupt it, such as the return of Bran (he has to come back, right?) and Arya and, for those engaged in theorizing for a long time, the Hound presumably heading up north with the Brotherhood with the knowledge of Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned.  But anyway, I'm sure it will all play out.

Actually, sort of related to the above, is the show done with the Riverlands?  They just killed Walder, who you'd think would be the final boss of any Riverlands story, but on the other hand:  Brienne hasn't returned to Winterfell (though conversely, Jaime is back in King's Landing, which seems like it should kill any thought of them reuniting in the near future, or possibly ever; from his final scene, he's on the path to valonqarhood), Arya's still in the Riverlands (and they made a point of mentioning that Edmure was in jail at the Twins; details on this show don't always matter, but maybe Arya's going to spring her uncle?), and Melisandre, who Arya is foreshadowed to meet, is riding south.  Now, maybe Arya will accost her on the way up, and run into Brienne, the Brotherhood, et al. while they're all waiting in line at the toll booth at Moat Cailin.

Or is Arya going to head to KL to try to finish off her list?  You would think the news of the Stark resurrection and Jon's crowning would be an irresistible pull northward, though.

And then there's Sam, whose role in all this is still a complete mystery.  The show didn't give any further indicators what the importance of Oldtown is.

Also, Bran notably hasn't crossed the Wall yet, so I'm not sure if the theory of the Night King's mark is more or less likely to be true.  Though the Three-Eyed Raven would have to be criminally incompetent to have sent him south if it was.

Weasel soup?

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Yet D&D puts Littlfinger in Winterfell to create drama between the Starks just for shock effect and them wanting to drag out the show. It's beyond ridiculous. 

Littlefinger in Winterfell makes lots of sense. Knowing Petyr, where else could he be? Also, Littlefinger creating division and chaos makes sense too, because what else could he be doing?. Maybe we WISH things are different, and happier. But that is not the same than to say it is bad writing. It makes sense, therefore it is hard to say it is bad writing, at least in if we are talking about coherence.

[GrailKing]

On 6/26/2016 at 11:57 PM, SeanC said:

They pretty clearly spell out there'll be Jon v. Sansa tension in this video.

Which I think fits with where the books are probably headed, though in the books Sansa's probably going to be a lot more directly under the control of Baelish than she is in the show.  This will all be heading toward Baelish's final resolution, when the full depth of his betrayal of House Stark is revealed, etc.

Of course they will hype it.

It's in the cards, I think it's going to happen because Sansa wants to do it on her own and keep Jon out of it; since they already brought up the trust issues a number of times.

The word used by GRRM was dubious intent for certain member of the  families, not evil,nefarious ,wicked,murderous.

They clearly showed Sansa putting up road blocks to LF, I think he's going to go overboard in his pitch to get her and it will ruin him one way or another, Sansa may even die in taking him out. 

[GrailKing]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:44 AM, SeanC said:

Yeah, I agree.  Daario in the show has been played as a fairly noble fellow, all things considered; I don't think he'd turn on Dany out of revenge (plus, he of all people would know how suicidal that would be).

Thinking on the prophesied Arya/Mel meeting, I wonder if it will be Mel who brings her the news of her siblings' location?  I'm not sure what role Mel is going to have going forward.  She's been rejected by the person she regards as a savior, she's got that one plot point, and then?  Maybe she'll run into Dany?

Conversely, if Jon's missing a red priest, perhaps that's the significance of Thoros heading north?

At least Thoros hasn't been seen burning people.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

For a while I was assuming that both Arya and Bran would return to Winterfell fairly speedily in Season 7, but increasingly I don't think that'll happen, partly because I think they'd get in the way of the drama being set up at Winterfell.  In Arya's case, there's a sufficient cluster of characters in the Riverlands for her to kill some time with (and many of those same characters would also get in the way of the drama at Winterfell), and the way D&D talked about being concerned about Arya's reaction to killing Walder Frey kind of suggests she is going to favour finishing up her list over reuniting with anybody.  Conversely, though, that kind of seems like a narrative dead-end to me, since Arya can't kill Cersei.

I agree with you, and I have said before, that characters currently in the Riverlands can NOT go yet to the North. It could nullify the drama in Winterfell too soon.

About, Arya, she and Sansa will be have a season of decisions. In Sansa case, she needs to choose between behaving as a Stark or behaving as a Baelish. With Arya it will be different: she must choose what path to go: North towards her family and therefore looking for their love, or South towards Cercei and Gregor looking for vengeance. Riverlands is at the middle of the two destinies, and Riverlands , now probably in chaos, will be the place where, among the people she will meet there she will take the decision.

Or maybe she will make two decisions, first she will take the wrong one and will go South, only to regret it later and go North again. But I think she will spend more of the season in the Riverlands and only later she will go North together with the rest of the characters (Sandor, BWB, etc)

[InsertWordHere]

5 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

I get it. I just wish we could talk about what we think happens to him afterwards (aside from him also committing suicide) once in awhile without it being the only about that

There might not be room in the timeline for this, but maybe he gets sent to the Night's Watch (if Tyrion intercedes on his behalf, because Dany will want to kill him, even if he's killed the Mad Queen and inadvertently helped her cause) and kills the Night's King (in the show) or "King" of the Others (in the books) and dies in the attempt, thereby making the "Kingslayer" into a heroic figure for the songs. 

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Someone on Reddit, I think mentioned that Lyanna said "his name is Jaehaerys". 

That's always been my theory for his Targ name, assuming Lyanna lived long enough in the books to give him one. Rhaegar most likely expected a girl and was going to name him Visenya, but the male version of that name was already taken by Jon's still living uncle. Maybe Lyanna grew up hearing tales of the good King Jaehaerys Targaryen I visiting the North with his dragons and wanted to give her son the name of a "good" Targ king. Plus, it's a "J" name, obviously. 

1 hour ago, jjjmoss said:

Checked through IMDB and there are currently 2 characters who've appeared in at least 10% of the whole series, but not in S6 at all: Gendry and Hot Pie. At least we saw the latter once in S4 and can presume he's still at the inn. I wanna see them both again though.

I'm still sticking to my theory that Hot Pie helped or gave Arya some pie-baking tutoring offscreen.

[OhOkayWhat]

6 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

 

and training to be a super assassin is useful if you plan on killing a Mad Queen....

 

I think the point of her time in Braavos is not her new skills, I think the real point is her story of identity crisis and the inner fight inside her heart to reject the growing darkness within. The skills can be used in the Riverlands or even in the North if Jon and Sansa need them to thwart Petyr plans.

[scottiB]

35 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Littlefinger in Winterfell makes lots of sense. Knowing Petyr, where else could he be? Also, Littlefinger creating division and chaos makes sense too, because what else could he be doing?. Maybe we WISH things are different, and happier. But that is not the same than to say it is bad writing. It makes sense, therefore it is hard to say it is bad writing, at least in if we are talking about coherence.

I know you weren't replying to me, but knowing what we do as viewers, LF sowing discord between Jon and Sansa is quaint and inconsequential with the White Walkers approaching from the north and Team Dany from the south. That "chaos is a ladder" crap may work one-on-one earlier, but attempting to outmaneuver Tyrion+Varys+Olenna backed by dragons, Dothraki, and Unsullied is strategically questionable.

That said, I agree with you that LF is being written consistently as a character at Winterfell. My worry is that his character is rapidly becoming irrelevant and sucking plot time from the last 13 episodes. Unless he has hidden caches of dragon glass in the walls of his brothels, or flat murders Jon, I don't see how he impacts the fight  with the White Walkers. 

[InsertWordHere]

14 minutes ago, scottiB said:

That "chaos is a ladder" crap may work one-on-one earlier, but attempting to outmaneuver Tyrion+Varys+Olenna backed by dragons,

Littlefinger in the North would also harm any potential alliance with Dany. The pro Stark (or at least not anti-Stark/anti-Sansa) people in her camp might get her to forgive House Stark for the Usurper's Dog's transgressions, but Varys especially will not want his Dragon Queen anywhere near Littlefinger. The show has built up their rivalry more so than in the books, and I'm fairly confident that Varys would never willingly place himself on the same side as Petyr, nor would any smart "player" (I'm willing to see Olenna's scheme with Littlefinger as an act of desperation on her part).  Do Varys and Tyrion also know about Littlefinger's role in Ned's death? This is all probably moot because I expect (or hope) Littlefinger to be long gone by the time Dany meets the Starks.

Edited June 30, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[OhOkayWhat]

21 minutes ago, scottiB said:

I know you weren't replying to me, but knowing what we do as viewers, LF sowing discord between Jon and Sansa is quaint and inconsequential with the White Walkers approaching from the north and Team Dany from the south. That "chaos is a ladder" crap may work one-on-one earlier, but attempting to outmaneuver Tyrion+Varys+Olenna backed by dragons, Dothraki, and Unsullied is strategically questionable.

That said, I agree with you that LF is being written consistently as a character at Winterfell. My worry is that his character is rapidly becoming irrelevant and sucking plot time from the last 13 episodes. Unless he has hidden caches of dragon glass in the walls of his brothels, or flat murders Jon, I don't see how he impacts the fight  with the White Walkers. 

I suspect the White Walkers will be mostly a Season 8 stuff.

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Of Rhaegar's two children with Elia, one looked like a Targaryen (Aegon) while the other looked like a Martell (Rhaenys).  GRRM-genetics is mostly variable like that.

Do we actually know what Aegon looked like? Is there a description of the baby?

[InsertWordHere]

12 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Do we actually know what Aegon looked like? Is there a description of the baby?

Young Griff is described as having the Targ silver hair and purple eyes which he has been concealing with blue hair dye. Even if he's a fake, I think we can infer that to be passed off as Aegon he would have to be as close in looks to the real Aegon as possible.

The baby's looks aren't described in the House of the Undying vision, but Kevan Lannister does see the dead Aegon (a fake Aegon according to Varys): "Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar’s children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word." Again, even if the baby's not really Aegon, they would want to find a baby that looked like the real Aegon and then conveniently allow his head to get bashed in.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, scottiB said:

 

That said, I agree with you that LF is being written consistently as a character at Winterfell. My worry is that his character is rapidly becoming irrelevant and sucking plot time from the last 13 episodes. Unless he has hidden caches of dragon glass in the walls of his brothels, or flat murders Jon, I don't see how he impacts the fight  with the White Walkers. 

To clarify, I think you made a good point about Petyr, but I think we should think outside the narrative too. I guess there are budgetary reasons that will made Petyr and other political characters have enough screentime to fill a big part of the episodes with dialogue and drama. Also, I suspect a part of the audience love the political intrigue in the show and not so much the fantasy elements. To keep them interested on the two last seasons they will need characters that can be used to develop these kind of plots.