Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[OhOkayWhat]

@Chris24601@SeanC, interesting commentaries. If you ask me, I want her reunite with her family and stay with them, but I think she will meet them to show them she survived, because it could be an awful decision (of her) to leave them without at least letting them to know she did not die. And she will help them too. Then, she will leave after that. A "Bruce Banner" ending where she try to find herself again while traveling. If she does it alone or not, I am not sure yet. Right now, I think she will do it more or less in a kinda "Dunk and Egg style" (in other words: not alone)

Edited July 18, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

I'm surprised that they're returning to Iceland. IIRC, there was talk that the weather was so cold that it made things more difficult and they didn't have as much time as they needed to film the season 2 Jon scenes well. I hope they take that into account when choosing locations this time.

[Wouter]

14 hours ago, screamin said:

What, the entire Vale is impregnable? The map doesn't make it look so, especially from the sea. I really don't think the Vale is just going to sit inert in the plot till winter is over. The lords of starving regions will know that unless they get food for their lands, their battle-hardened peasant armies will rebel. The Vale has food. If the Vale lords just sit there complacently behind their mountain walls, the other lords can band together and attack their more accessible properties one by one. Whereas if the Vale band together and divide their foe by offering food to some lords to ally with them against the others, they can take advantage of this crisis to take real power and spoils...say, starting with the Freys, who are right on their doorstep.

What I'm saying is that moving a large army in or out of the Vale, by the mountain passes, is practically impossible under winter conditions. This has been stated in the books and things in the show are very different.

However, an army could of course come or leave by sea, but as Sean wrote, the coastline of the Vale is not an easy landing place. Dany could be invited in (and with the dragons, she could also force herself in if not welcome), or the Vale could use a fleet (like Manderly's?) to move its own army.

The food will get distributed, I don't doubt, but it's clear that Littlefinger is planning to become significantly richer still, while doing so. In the overall plot, I think the Vale may end up being the food source that may stop most of Westeros of starving to death. And Sansa's place in it may be very important for that.

Granted, it's also possible she goes north like in the show - but purely based on the books, i don't see much indication for that. LF's promise of retaking Winterfell for her seems to be a carrot dangled in front of Sansa to get her cooperation. Even if he means it, it would be a long-term plan probably taking multiple books to actually do it, with the kind of speed (both in writing and in moving the plot per page) Martin has nowadays.

43 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I'm surprised that they're returning to Iceland. IIRC, there was talk that the weather was so cold that it made things more difficult and they didn't have as much time as they needed to film the season 2 Jon scenes well. I hope they take that into account when choosing locations this time.

Difficult or not, they will need cold and heaps of snow to get a believable end product. Winter has come...

Edited July 18, 2016 by Wouter

[kittykat]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:15 PM, TxanGoddess said:

The info that NCW was flying to Iceland recently is quite interesting too.  I'm fascinated with how he might end up with a party of Northerners or NW.

I'm hoping this is true as it aligns with my Jaime ends up in the North after breaking from Cersei theory.

As far the delays go from what I've read, they want to film in the actual winter to portray realistic scenes pertaining to Westeros winter hence the push back for a summer release.  Not to mention the extra time needed in production for the CGI team since they're going to need more scenes of white walkers, dragons and the wolves (with the likely assumption that we will see Nymeria again).

There's going to be some major set up in the season opener.  Cersei learning that the Starks hold the North and King Jon.   Jon et al learning about Cersei and the sept explosion.  Dany possibly arriving in Dorne.  Cersei and Jon needing to set up their small councils.  Looks like we're posed for five major plots: Dany insurgence, Queen Cersei, The North Prepares, Sam's Oldtown Adventures and wherever Arya ends up.

[Eyes High]

I think Arya will reunite with her family in both books and the show, but that doesn't mean she'll necessarily stick around once everything settles down and she is satisfied that her surviving family members will be safe. Book Arya dreamed in AGOT about having all sorts of adventures. It could be that she still has the itch to travel and explore even after peace returns to Westeros and the surviving Starks. In ASOS she considers briefly the possibility of becoming a roving outlaw like Wenda the White Fawn. It could very well be that Arya musing about what's west of Westeros could be a hint at her endgame, in my opinion.

[SeanC]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think Arya will reunite with her family in both books and the show, but that doesn't mean she'll necessarily stick around once everything settles down and she is satisfied that her surviving family members will be safe. Book Arya dreamed in AGOT about having all sorts of adventures. It could be that she still has the itch to travel and explore even after peace returns to Westeros and the surviving Starks. In ASOS she considers briefly the possibility of becoming a roving outlaw like Wenda the White Fawn. It could very well be that Arya musing about what's west of Westeros could be a hint at her endgame, in my opinion.

Though I hope for her sake that sailing off into the west isn't the sort of adventure she ends up having, seeing as nobody has ever come back from that.

Though I suppose if Brian Jacques can send Mariel and Dandin sailing off into the ether, never to be heard from again, GRRM can do that with Arya.

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 It could very well be that Arya musing about what's west of Westeros could be a hint at her endgame, in my opinion.

Coming to HBO in 2025- "Arya: The Force Awakens". When one of her faceless waterdancing students goes rogue, Arya finds an uncharted land where she goes into hiding. However, the bastard child she had with Gendry begins a quest to find her, carrying Needle.

[Audreythe2nd]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

GRRM has as close as said that Arya will meet Sansa again

When did he say this? I know what he said about hanging the giant wolf pack on the wall, but not about this.

[OhOkayWhat]

About those Arya/Gendry babies.... I do not think Arya/Gendry is endgame, at least in the show.

I mean, I am sure they will meet again in books and show, but it will be more to give them some sort of closure. Gendry is not ready to deal with Arya. At least not the new Arya. And here I am talking about something beyond romance themes. She has became someone so dark and complex that we do not even know who she really is. I have in mind only a name of someone who can deal with her mind and soul right now, and he is not Gendry.

Will she find her way back to herself and to the light? I think she will do, even if it take her several years, she will do.

[SandSniper]

22 hours ago, paigow said:

The "Bloody Gate" is a natural chokepoint against infantry...while the defenders also control the high ground approaching the gate...an attacking ground force will end up like the SEAL team in "The Rock"

What is high ground to a dragon?

Edited July 19, 2016 by Drogo
Removed signature.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

About those Arya/Gendry babies.... I do not think Arya/Gendry is endgame, at least in the show.

 

Your assumption is that Gendry has not evolved since he last saw Arya. Dude could be working for pirates / gangsters / pimps. Maybe he is a better killer than Arya. He might be Mr. Right....and understand her darkness

Edited July 19, 2016 by paigow

[Wouter]

15 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

When did he say this? I know what he said about hanging the giant wolf pack on the wall, but not about this.

While I'm not certain what Sean is referring to, I remember that Martin once stated that Arya and Sansa have deep issues to work out, and it was phrased in such a way as to suggest that they would indeed meet and have to work said issues out.

[scottiB]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Your assumption is that Gendry has not evolved since he last saw Arya. Dude could be working for pirates / gangsters / pimps. Maybe he is a better killer than Arya. He might be Mr. Right....and understand her darkness

I like to think that, in his travels, Gendry's learned the secret(s) to forging Valyrian steel/swords which brings him back to the northern sphere in preparation for the White Walker battle....and Arya. 

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, paigow said:

Your assumption is that Gendry has not evolved since he last saw Arya. Dude could be working for pirates / gangsters / pimps. Maybe he is a better killer than Arya. He might be Mr. Right....and understand her darkness

Re-introducing Gendry that way, in my opinion creates a narrative problem:

-There are shortcuts in narrative. Good ones and bad ones.

-First, and I am talking about the narrative needs, maybe the changes are not enough because he only became dark. I will explain myself. There is plenty of dark characters in the show, and being dark is not enough if he will be reintroduced as a narrative device to help Arya to begin her journey to become herself again and to the light. As a narrative device he needs also to have very deep doubts about his own life and doubts about the darkness and violence within him, in other words, as a narrative device it could help if he wants to change, and reject the darkness and violence.

-Here you introduce this new Gendry, with a complex darkness story than we did not see on screen, so he is able to deal with Arya darkness. To me, that could be a bad shortcut. We never saw the transformation, it seems like it happened off screen just so he is now a match for the very different Arya whose transformation we saw on screen. Even if he is a secondary character, narrative should reintroduce him early to see the parallel changes. But the show did not that. Therefore, right now, it could be a bad shortcut.

-And the show gave us already a character who can do the job. And he is someone that is a constant presence within her narrative: Sandor. The logical choice as a narrator is to give him the job. But, of course, NOT in a romantic way.

[Katsullivan]

That only matters if Arya's endgame is to, find her way back to the light. If it's for her to continue her somewhat-dark, lone-wolf path and maybe seek adventures "West of Westeros", then she'll need someone as hardened as herself by her side. 

I don't think all, if any of the surviving Starks will have a textbook happy ending. 

[Chris24601]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

That only matters if Arya's endgame is to, find her way back to the light. If it's for her to continue her somewhat-dark, lone-wolf path and maybe seek adventures "West of Westeros", then she'll need someone as hardened as herself by her side. 

I don't think all, if any of the surviving Starks will have a textbook happy ending. 

If she's to have an adventuring companion "West of Westeros" on the show, I'd expect that to be Sandor. Obviously it wouldn't be a romantic pairing, but as you said, a textbook happy ending probably isn't in the cards anyway. Her and Sandor killing bad guys and eating chickens in some faraway land sounds like just the right sort of ending for those two.

There's something a bit poetic about the girl who can change her face traveling around with a guy who has such a distinctive one while being some sort of unholy union of Batman and Dexter. That's the sort of tale bards would sing about for centuries.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, scottiB said:

I like to think that, in his travels, Gendry's learned the secret(s) to forging Valyrian steel/swords which brings him back to the northern sphere in preparation for the White Walker battle....and Arya. 

Which might put him on Sam's path in Oldtown on the show perhaps.

I think one thing we know for sure is that Gendry probably has arms the size of tree trunks from all the rowing. 

[Macbeth]

On 7/18/2016 at 7:26 AM, OhOkayWhat said:

I think the show did not include that phrase. Instead, as a possible endgame prediction, the show gave us the "but what's west of Westeros?" Arya dialogue last season.

Yea - that came out of left field - Arya wanting to explore what was west of Westeros.  Well she'll need a good ship and Captain - maybe Davos will be available. 

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Macbeth said:

Yea - that came out of left field - Arya wanting to explore what was west of Westeros.  Well she'll need a good ship and Captain - maybe Davos will be available. 

Yes, that was unexpected. And Davos as captain is a great idea. But I think he could be very busy being Lyanna Mormont adoptive father to do the trip. It's known!

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Chris24601 said:

If she's to have an adventuring companion "West of Westeros" on the show, I'd expect that to be Sandor.....

I like that they are the proof that it does not need to be romantic/sexual to have intensity and intimacy in a relationship within a narrative.

Edited July 20, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[paigow]

What evidence - in the show - indicates that Sandor would enjoy a "five year mission to boldly go where no man has gone before"? Assuming that he even survives the White Walker war, why hang around with a daughter / little sister figure afterwards? Whoever rules Westeros would keep him around - e.g. to supervise the Dothraki & Unsullied survivors - rather than let a war hero disappear.

[Chris24601]

I think the mistake in the presumption is that Arya's trip west of Westeros is some "five year mission" she will eventually return from. My thinking is that her departure will be a permanent one because she is so damaged she doesn't feel she can fit in anywhere she's even remotely familiar with (or that is familiar with her). She's wants to go west of Westeros because whatever is there is a place no one's ever heard of and where no one would know her so she could throw away all the baggage of her old life and find something that fits who she is now.

I think Sandor is in much the same boat. He and Arya on the show are kindred spirits... damaged souls unsure of even where to even begin looking for what it would take to fix what's wrong with them. But they understand each other in their brokeness and so if your choices are to hang around with people who want you to be something you're not or go with the person who understands what you really are on some search for someplace you might fit... why NOT go with them? Its certainly better than here.

Frankly, I think Sandor would go with his surrogate daughter/little sister because when he was looking out for her before it was one of the few times in his life he's had a purpose that wasn't killing people and taking their stuff. Its not some epic purpose like saving the Seven Kingdoms or something, but there's a saying... to the world you are but one person, but to one person you are the world... and protecting someone other than himself could be enough for him.

Of course I think the ending in general is going to be something along those lines. That happiness for the surviving heroes will not be found in glory on the battlefield or seizing the Iron Throne, but more in line with the dream from "Into the Woods"... "Can't we just pursue our lives with our children and our wives?"

Edited July 20, 2016 by Chris24601

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Frankly, I think Sandor would go with his surrogate daughter/little sister because when he was looking out for her before it was one of the few times in his life he's had a purpose that wasn't killing people and taking their stuff...

Remember that his original purpose in keeping her safe was getting paid by Cat. Then Lyssa was Plan B. IIRC Jon & Castle Black was Plan C, but Brienne kicked him off a cliff before that could happen. Dude was an unemployed fugitive and Arya was a job. He beat up and robbed the luckless farmer that helped them.

[Minneapple]

From Eyes High in the Spoilers Only thread

Quote

 

Spain, Iceland and Northern Ireland have been confirmed as filming locations. Spanish filming locations include the following: Sevilla, Caceres, Almodovar del Rio, Santiponce, Zumaia, and Bermeo.

WOTW reports some more information:

Zumaia and Bermeo are in the Basque region.

Zumaia: Zumaia filming starts October 26th. The Zumaia filming location will be Itzurun Beach.

Bermeo: Bermeo filming starts in October as well, and filming will take place only on the shores of San Juan de Gaztelugatxe. A technical team of more than 400 people will be needed for the Bermeo shoot.

Caceres: Filming in Caceres city and in Malpartida (a city in Caceres) starts in November. The filming location for Malpartida is believed to be Los Barruecos. One source is claiming the filming of water scenes there that will require many extras.

Almodovar del Rio: L7R confirms that the filming location will be the Castillo de Almodovar del Rio, with filming to take place in November.

Santiponce: GOT will be filming in the ancient Roman ruins of Italica.

 

Ah, these are some GORGEOUS filming locations! In a way it's almost a tribute to GRRM's travelogues, all the lovely visuals we get.

So I'm going to speculate that the San Juan location is Casterly Rock. Or Dragonstone? A technical team of 400 people? Wow. Los Barruecos with its water scenes could be a landing point for Dany. Or it could also be Dragonstone.

And the Castillo de Almodovar is beautiful. Highgarden or Casterly Rock?

And the ancient Roman ruin could be a dragon pit! Or the site of the tournament at Harrenhal. PLEASE, WRITERS? PLEASE?

[YaddaYadda]

34 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

And the ancient Roman ruin could be a dragon pit! Or the site of the tournament at Harrenhal. PLEASE, WRITERS? PLEASE?

That kind of looks like something they could use for the tourney, doesn't it?

Am I the only that thinks Dany will land at Storm's End? She has an entire army to fee, and going to Dragonstone doesn't make much sense to me. Plus in Drangonstone, she'd have to sail again.

Those locations are absolutely gorgeous.

Edited July 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Hecate7]

On 7/19/2016 at 0:32 PM, Katsullivan said:

That only matters if Arya's endgame is to, find her way back to the light. If it's for her to continue her somewhat-dark, lone-wolf path and maybe seek adventures "West of Westeros", then she'll need someone as hardened as herself by her side. 

I don't think all, if any of the surviving Starks will have a textbook happy ending. 

I don't see why Arya needs anyone by her side at all.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, paigow said:

Remember that his original purpose in keeping her safe was getting paid by Cat. Then Lyssa was Plan B. IIRC Jon & Castle Black was Plan C, but Brienne kicked him off a cliff before that could happen. Dude was an unemployed fugitive and Arya was a job. He beat up and robbed the luckless farmer that helped them.

It was in fact his original plan. Then came the plan B. But he did not have a plan C in the show. When he met Brienne we saw how in his mind there was not any safe place for Arya in the world. He was her safe place.

It was clear at that point of the story, that their bonding was real: the intimacy of the scene in 4x07, or the dialogue in 4x08. In 4x10 he told Brienne he was watching over her.

And if we had any doubts, the director of the scene says that he said that because he loves her. In other interviews he also talk about their goodbye scene, and he said the same thing.

Therefore it was not only a job at that point in their story. Also, besides going from point A to point B, the narrative purpose of their journey is the transformation, not only inside her, but also within Sandor.

Edited July 21, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[arjumand]

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I don't see why Arya needs anyone by her side at all.

Yeah, I don't either. And while she didn't hate Sandor anymore, as was shown when she was playing the game of faces, she showed much more emotion when she thought she'd caused ex-Jaqen's death than when she left Sandor there to die.

I read a theory that during the war for the dawn, Arya will feature in a big way because she will find the long-lost sword, Dark Sister, which, being Valyrian steel, can kill White Walkers. It's interesting, though except for the fact that it's called Dark Sister, and it might be at Castle Black, I don't really see a connection.

Different speculation:

I was thinking about Petyr Baelish's words to Sansa in Winds of Winter:

First of all, his "I see myself on the Iron Throne [pause] with you by my side" is both a truth and a lie, in my opinion. Sure, he wants the Iron Throne. Sansa by his side, he can take or leave. For someone who loves her, he sure is cavalier about her safety and whereabouts, and leaves immediately after delivering her to the Boltons, not even staying for that creepy, creepy dinner, where a blind man could have sensed that something was deeply wrong with Ramsey.

Second, when he talks about Jon, calling him a "motherless bastard born in the south." I was kind of taken aback. It just seems strangely specific, especially with the reference to where he was born, like he's trying to suggest that Jon isn't Northern enough, which makes me laugh - Jon has spent his whole life in the North, except for the few weeks until he was taken out of Dorne. Seriously, Petyr? His last name is 'Snow'!

Then I started thinking he was hinting at something else - that he knew about Jon. That he really thought about the timeline between Ned going away and coming back with a baby, and he worked it out. That's going to be a real problem, if he knows about Jon being Rhaegar's son, before Jon and Sansa find out.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Hecate7 said:

I don't see why Arya needs anyone by her side at all.

Physically? I suspect it depends on what she wants to do or what trouble she get into. Emotionally? her mind is in serious trouble and she needs all the help she can receive, specially, from Sandor.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, arjumand said:

Yeah, I don't either. And while she didn't hate Sandor anymore, as was shown when she was playing the game of faces, she showed much more emotion when she thought she'd caused ex-Jaqen's death than when she left Sandor there to die.

That is a good observation, but that couple of scenes proves how important is Sandor within Arya heart and storyline. I will explain myself:

When she thinks that her friend Jaquen (later she understand that he is not THAT Jaquen) is dying, she behaves as expected: she scream and she cries. She reacts that way because she thinks a friend is dying, there is nothing odd on that Arya behavior. When Sandor is "dying" she does not cry or scream, she does not even show any feeling about it. We see just the cold face of a girl. But that is precisely the point of the scene: to shows us her heart trying to become stone.

And that is the odd part of it. Because this scene is not an isolated thing on the screen, instead, it is another piece on a ongoing subplot within Arya storyline. It is odd, because we saw previously 4x07 and 4x08 and her attitude in 4x10 is so different that we ask ourselves: what is going on? does she hate him? does she cares about him? is she indiferent?

Then came 5x06 and the game the faces. And it is a fundamental scene not only because we get the information that Arya does not hate Sandor. It is a fundamental scene because we see how she behaves when she is confronted with the truth. Does she just shrug? does she admit coldly and quickly she was wrong and that maybe UnJaquen was right and she did not hate the Hound? We see that is not what happens in that scene. In fact, she denies it vehemently, she express indignation when someone tells she does not hate Sandor.

In other words, it is not only the info (the fact that she does not hate him) that it is important, it is also very important to notice the way she talks and confront the truth. It is fundamental to see how she buried inside her heart her feelings so deep, that even she is not aware of them. And then we ask ourselves, if it is true that she was almost indifferent to him why did she need to build walls around her feelings for Sandor?

The answer I suspect is this: because she was NOT indifferent at all about him, because her feelings, even if they are confuse (episode 6x03) are also intense. As intense as Sandor feelings for her (interview with the director of 4x10).

That is the reason that made me to say it is important do not forget those are not isolated scenes (that includes the Arya attitude when she leaves him) and that they are instead, pieces of a big puzzle, parts of a progression of events that together make sense as the complex narrative of the Arya and Sandor relationship subplot. An ongoing subplot that continued even when they were not together in season 5 and 6.

She does not want to admit to herself she cares about him. Why? Maybe the answer is: because Sandor, somehow, challenges her own vision about the people, because he proves as false, her own personal House of Black and White that lives within her heart: in other words, the wrong belief that there is bad people and good people, and that there is not middle ground. But Sandor proves that is not true and he also proves it is possible that even persons like him, who committed atrocities, can change and be redeemed.

That challenge that Sandor represents is, I think, a fundamental element in Arya narrative and that is the reason of the big screentime investment on their story in the show.

I think she is slowly realizing her feelings about him and doing it, she is learning more things about herself and the humankind.

Edited July 21, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[YaddaYadda]

I've been doing a rewatch of a few episodes here and there, and in 6.04, there's that scene with Lord Royce and LF and this sort of power grab going on where Royce feels his life is actually threatened because Robin listens to LF and does what LF wants him to do. Robin even asks if they should fling Royce through the moon door. That was a very in your face threat from LF to Royce.

I know some things are not that deep, but I wonder if that's not the reason Royce decided to support Jon as KitN. Pledging the support of the Vale in the North is kind of different from supporting someone who has just been named King in the North. I'm sure Royce wants to get rid of LF and his influence over his liege lord and this seems to be as good a way as any to do that.

Edited July 21, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[FemmyV]

On 7/5/2016 at 6:29 AM, doram said:

Dany is not a Sue. That's the problem with shipping debates. Someone always feels the need to tear down a 'rival' character to 'sail' their ship. 

True, that, but as an anti-Jonsa, I admit I often feel it's necessary to tear Sansa down, when I get vocal about it. This is because so many pro-Jonsa posts portray Sansa as a sweet, unselfish, and wise individual, and have, all along.

[YaddaYadda]

29 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

True, that, but as an anti-Jonsa, I admit I often feel it's necessary to tear Sansa down, when I get vocal about it. This is because so many pro-Jonsa posts portray Sansa as a sweet, unselfish, and wise individual, and have, all along.

Even now after everything she's been through, I really wonder how wise she is. I'm still unsure why she hasn't told Jon anything about the army of the Vale even though she looked like she wanted to tell him. 

She's a very grey character. Even when she was a kid, she wasn't sweet, at least not to Arya or Jon (but siblings...), she wasn't unselfish because she lied to protect Joffrey after the Nymeria incident which in turn got Lady and Micah killed. She went to Cercei and tattled on Ned. She was a kid, so things can't really be held against her. I think she's seen a lot, and has become more of a realist. She understands the world better, and it's not Florian and Jonquil. 

I wonder how different she will be in the next books.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I know some things are not that deep, but I wonder if that's not the reason Royce decided to support Jon as KitN. Pledging the support of the Vale in the North is kind of different from supporting someone who has just been named King in the North. I'm sure Royce wants to get rid of LF and his influence over his liege lord and this seems to be as good a way as any to do that.

Royce pledging support from the Vale for Jon also a way to get Robin (a.k.a. Sansa's other cousin) up there as well, which I think is going to be important to the plot.

Specifically, as of the end of season six Littlefinger has a dearth of allies at Winterfell to use to gain what he wants.

Sansa, even if she were inclined to trust him (which I don't think she will without coercion), has no forces of her own to bring to the table that haven't already pledged themselves to Jon. Barring new information that could turn the nobles against Jon, her only use to Littlefinger is in trying to use her as a conduit to influence Jon.

Meanwhile, Lord Royce has already undermined his control over the armies of the Vale by pledging support to Jon. I doubt he was the only Vale Lord to do so. No matter how well he manages things, at the end of the day the warrior lords are always going to back another warrior over a guy who commands from the rear or even off the battlefield entirely. With their liege lord so far away, they probably feel reasonably safe in undermining Littlefinger.

In other words, Littlefinger is going to need to bring the liege lord to Winterfell if he's going to be able to cow Royce and the other Vale lords who rode to Winterfell back into line. The only alternative is to take the Vale armies home and abandon any hopes of controlling the North or Sansa for the foreseeable future (the winter is expected to be one of the longest and coldest in living memory... years for Jon to build support and Sansa to take a husband who is not Littlefinger or Littlefinger approved).

The nature of the narrative won't allow Littlefinger to do the latter... he has to gamble big, almost win, then have it all fall apart due to some critical miscalculation... so pulling in Robin to regain control over the Vale Lords and use their future aid as leverage is about the only move he's got if he wants to keep playing.

[FemmyV]

23 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Spain, Iceland and Northern Ireland have been confirmed as filming locations. Spanish filming locations include the following: Sevilla, Caceres, Almodovar del Rio, Santiponce, Zumaia, and Bermeo.

Does this  mean Dany lands in Dorne?

 

Quote

One thing about the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship or "relationship" was that Lyanna told Ned that she didn't want to be with Robert because she didn't love him, and that he would never keep to one bed. Rhaegar just left his wife and children. He didn't live with her anymore, had not lived with them or seen them from the moment he had gotten together with Lyanna. She was in KL, and he was in Dorne. 

For all we know, Lyanna may have just wanted to fuck a crowned prince, and got in over her head.

Quote

I actually hope so. I love the idea of the Stark sisters reuniting and being friends, forgetting why they didn't get along once upon a time. I loved Sansa's fond little smile when Brienne told her Arya wasn't dressed like a lady.

i don't think it's going to be that easy.  Like any youngest sibling who's been out on their own and independent for X years, encountering their elders who expect them to fall back into their old roles, Ayra is going to tell Sansa to fuck off, once the initial shine of reunion wears off.

Edited July 21, 2016 by FemmyV

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

True, that, but as an anti-Jonsa, I admit I often feel it's necessary to tear Sansa down, when I get vocal about it. This is because so many pro-Jonsa posts portray Sansa as a sweet, unselfish, and wise individual, and have, all along.

I don't get that characterization of Sansa at all, and I like Sansa. I'm on the fence about Jonsa (or any ships, for that matter). I do think Sansa is kind; she was naive but she's learning. The biggest issue with Sansa was last year's rape plot, which set her characterization back about five thousand steps. If you take last season out, Sansa's character arc actually makes more sense.

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

She's a very grey character. Even when she was a kid, she wasn't sweet, at least not to Arya or Jon (but siblings...), she wasn't unselfish because she lied to protect Joffrey after the Nymeria incident which in turn got Lady and Micah killed. She went to Cercei and tattled on Ned. She was a kid, so things can't really be held against her. I think she's seen a lot, and has become more of a realist. She understands the world better, and it's not Florian and Jonquil. 

I wonder how different she will be in the next books.

I know we've had the "Sansa's lie" conversation a thousand times, but I don't think she lied to protect Joffrey. I think she lied to protect everybody, and this was her first lesson -- that a well-meaning lie can get somebody hurt, or even killed. So that led to her going to Cersei, thinking she could trust her. This time I'll tell the truth, she thinks, and it still ends badly. That was Sansa, naive to a fault.

As for the books, I think character-wise, her TV arc is generally where her Winds of Winter arc will be.

Spoiler

Her WoW chapter shows her becoming manipulative, learning to mask her face, lie for her own gain and whatnot.

I think the show is deliberately keeping her motives in a gray area for now. She's a wild-card at this point;

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

Sansa specifically blamed Arya for what happened at the time, and she continued to do so long after it happened, even in her private thoughts. I don't think she lied to protect Joffrey as much as she lied so that Joffrey would not turn against her and she would lose the love of her Prince. Basically, Sansa acted like a coward and there was nothing noble about her behaviour at the time. She's grown since then which is the whole point. Trying to excuse/justify her actions at that point in time is arguing against her having any growth afterwards.

I disagree that trying to excuse or justify her actions is arguing against her having any growth. And I don't think she acted like a coward at all. She thought she was going to marry Joffrey and Cersei was to be her mother-in-law. She was trying to not take anyone's side. 

[Minneapple]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I don't think things are that black and white in this case.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Not taking sides when one side is clearly right and one side is clearly wrong is being cowardly. 

Or to quote Edmund Burke and Martin King Jnr: all that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to stand by and do nothing. Those are the consequences of Sansa's cowardice - being complicit in evil, and it led to an innocent direwolf being murdered because Sansa didn't want to compromise her dreams of being a fairy-tale princess. 

[anamika]

Comic con has started! And so have the interviews. Hype man Liam Cunningham gives an early one:

Towards the end he gets asked about the 'interesting' look between LF and Sansa. His answer:

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I don't think it's going to be all lovey- dovey with Jon Snow and Sansa. Something tells me ambition maybe getting in the way. And little Peter may be stirring the old whatever you want to call it.

The actors maybe speculating at this point, but I am guessing that they are going off what the writers and directors were telling them for that scene. Maybe Sophie was asked to play that scene like she suddenly has her doubts about Jon being KITN. Plus, right from from episode 5, when Sansa lies to Jon about the Vale, David and Dan talk about how she was no longer a pure Stark and that LF has got his hooks into her. LF's parting remark about Jon being her half brother is what led to her lie about the Vale army. We see her pause and consider when LF calls Jon a motherless bastard born in the south in the finale. We don't see her refuting that.

I do think we will get Jon Vs Sansa in season 7. That's the games and politicking  we will see on the show now that Cersei has decimated her enemies and everyone else has united behind Dany. I think Sansa and LF will end up using each other. Bran getting there from the North or Arya getting there from the south maybe what puts an end to the infighting.

Edited July 22, 2016 by anamika

[sunflower]

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I do think we will get Jon Vs Sansa in season 7

It's just so frustrating, I wish someone at this Con will ask a direct question about how none of this Sansa Ambition, Jon's annoying me shit was on screen.  Purposely muddled? or bad fucking writing?  I'm going with the latter.  

I wish every audience member would ask, "why didn't Sansa tell Jon about LF and the Knights of the Vale?"  D&D will be on the panel right, explain the bad writing, please!  

Also, why wasn't WW and Jon's resurrection discussed on screen between Jon And Sansa?  Kind of important.  Because, I thought Sansa just wanted to be safe and go home, not play politics with her back from dead bro who just wants them all to survive.  And throwing shade at Davos?  This is the prob, Jon and Davos are good guys to the audience, Sansa playing these game in S7 will just be petty.  They're clearly already annoying in S6.

Edited July 22, 2016 by sunflower

[Advance35]

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I disagree that trying to excuse or justify her actions is arguing against her having any growth. And I don't think she acted like a coward at all. She thought she was going to marry Joffrey and Cersei was to be her mother-in-law. She was trying to not take anyone's side. 

This is how I've always seen it.  Who would testify against the most powerful people in the land, in a place like Westeros, especially when they are supposed to become your family by law.  

I always kind of sided more towards Sansa's side in that particular instance.  She did the appropriate thing politically.  Arya couldn't think, my sister will be spending her life with these people, maybe I won't antagonize them.   Arya earned House Stark the open enmity of most vindictive members of House Lannister and some of the power behind the Iron Throne.   Ned would go on to make it worst with his clumsy Columbo act but bringing Arya to Kings Landing was a big mistake.  If Olenna had an Arya in her family (I personally think she would have gotten Arya in line in terms of behavior long ago) 10-1 she would have sent her to an out of the way place in the Reach, where her proclivities would likely not get in the way.

In terms of Comic Con spoilers, I'm hoping the audience will get a rough filming schedule.  Didn't some of the actors/actresses say WHEN they would be flying wherever to film last season?

[Eyes High]

I don't expect anything in the way of substantial information from ComiCon. Apart from the new cast videos which have come out in certain years, ComiCon's usually a letdown when it comes to GOT spoilers. Also, the cast usually gets their scripts in July. If filming has been pushed back to the fall, they may not get their scripts until August, meaning the cast members at ComiCon will have no informed basis to talk about next season (and even if they did have an informed basis, there's not much they can really say in any event).

I am looking forward to the video that will be shown during the panel. Even if it's not necessarily spoilery, it's usually something good. (The "In Memoriam" video shown after Season 3 is probably my favourite.)

[bluvelvet]

Whose ambition getting in the way though? Sansa's because I don't see Jon having any ambition to rule, he just wants to deal with the walking dead. An again, if Sansa wants to rule I don't think Jon will have an issue. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by bluvelvet

[sunflower]

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An again, if Sansa wants to rule I don't think Jon will have an issue.  

I don't think he would either, but Sansa has set a precedent by withholding key information from him.  Does only Jon know about the withholding of this info and circumstances of it?  I wonder what Davos thinks, Knights of the Vale out of nowhere?  Just Sansa sent a raven and didn't know the result?  IF LF stays at WF, will we see a twisted version of the KL small council?  I mean, it's not Sansa being a woman that would be a problem, since Lady Lyanna, a girl child, rules Bear Island and she's the one that put Jon up as King with the older men following her.  It seems it will be, how can Jon trust her if she has set the precedent of holding back info?  I could see Jon wanting to trust her, but his other advisors, like Davos, Tormund, even Lyanna having a problem.  I hope, however it plays out, the conflict between Jon and Sansa is clearly on screen as opposed to D&D's S6 version of Secrets and Lies.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by sunflower

[Bean421]

Sophie Turner's comments at comic-con are frustrating. I know she's not responsible for all of this, but the narrative that Jon is too dumb and naive to rule is so demeaning to the chseacter. That will be one thing I look forward to in the books, Jon's thoughts and feelings about his resurrection and reclaiming his home. 

[sunflower]

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the narrative that Jon is too dumb and naive to rule is so demeaning 

 

Why is Jon being thrown under the bus to such an extent, is Sophie parroting what D&D want out there?  Book Jon and even Show Jon has more experience than any other Stark, even Robb, as Robb mostly did battles, while Jon was Lord Commander of the Fucking Night's Watch.  Of course, ADWD Jon is so awesome and deals with everything from food stores, making deals with the Iron Bank, to thousands of Wildlings through the Wall.  Still, he was LC, what was Sansa, the Crown's Hostage??

Please tell me she's just wrong, and doesn't understand how experienced Jon is and that they'll eventually reach an accord on the show?  I can deal with that, or is the show taking Ygritte's (spelled wrong?), line of endearment, "you know nothing, Jon Snow" literally?

Edited July 22, 2016 by sunflower

[amandawoods]

Sophie Turner knows nothing.  I love her acting, but I think she's just a gigantic troll to fans and wants to rile them up.  

[anamika]

1 hour ago, sunflower said:

Please tell me she's just wrong, and doesn't understand how experienced Jon is and that they'll eventually reach an accord on the show?  I can deal with that, or is the show taking Ygritte's (spelled wrong?), line of endearment, "you know nothing, Jon Snow" literally?

Unfortunately, I don't think she's wrong. That's the narrative the show is going with, as we saw last season. With clever Sansa playing all the moves and Jon stupidly attacking the Boltons. It looks like he will be stuck with Sansa again next season, serving as a plot device for her story, whatever that maybe - including maybe betraying her family. The writers seem to be all about Sansa/Sophie Turner and they seem to love her as much as Cersei. So characters like Jon, Arya and Bran get the short shrift. Their stories got changed so that Sansa could get North and have something interesting to do other than hang around in the Vale with some Harry the Heir.

As for Sophie, lol! Not a fan of her acting, but I like that she riles up the Jon/Sansa shippers! Her threat to kill the writers if they ever wrote Jon and Sansa romantically and her being LF's number one cheerleader is rather funny. Go Sophie!!

Edited July 23, 2016 by anamika

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Bean421 said:

Sophie Turner's comments at comic-con are frustrating. I know she's not responsible for all of this, but the narrative that Jon is too dumb and naive to rule is so demeaning to the chseacter.

Yeah, this is becoming an annoying pattern with Sophie. I get that she is biased towards her own character, but I don't see the need to call Jon 'naive' (hello, pot meet kettle) and now this comment about Jon being unqualified to rule  Winterfell. Does she watch the show or pay attention to any character but her own?? Jon Snow is by no means Tywin or Olenna or Tyrion but he is not the dumbass she makes him out to be.