S04.E13: Persona Non Grata

[millennium]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

I don't see why the Centre would try to separate them if they went back to Russia. They have children together and have been living as a married couple for decades, and tearing the family apart would serve no purpose other than to alienate them. As for a new marriage ceremony, I think that would be their choice.

I think the only way Philip will return to the USSR is in restraints or maybe a body bag.

When he stood in front of the EST crowd and said he was tired of making arrangements for people he doesn't give a shit about, I got the very strong impression he was talking about the USSR.

I am not looking forward to the Mischa storyline.   I'm already up to here with Paige.  The last thing the show needs is another demanding teenager.   Move this show to the CW already.

Edited June 10, 2016 by millennium

[Dowel Jones]

On 6/9/2016 at 11:10 AM, Athena said:

The friends in high place is implied to be the Center/KGB on behalf of Philip and Gabriel

And we all thought Martha was just a chump in love....

I see a problem with the passports.  How long ago did Irina send them?  In addition to the language barriers, if they're totally blank inside, the agency will ask how he got into the country.  If they have visa stamps from other countries in order to look authentic, the dates may give away the fact that the passports are fake. 

I was hoping that Agents Beeman/Aderholt would at least contact the bioweapons lab to find out how William was able to access the Lassa virus, even if it did not immediately lead anywhere.  Maybe the first part of next season.

[Gella]

Russians, at least back in the day, invited  everyone in, at least "for tea". Classmates, friends, potential boyfriends, etc. The whole "meeting parents" was really not a thing because it happened almost right away. Hanging out in someone's home was THE thing because there weren't really that many places you could go "out". (plus the food was free and better) And if you ended up getting married you'd live with one set of parents or the other. And then you had babushkas in the courtyard keeping tabs on who was coming and going. One wouldn't have a "motel" to go stay for the night either. Privacy was a luxury, so Irina keeping Misha Sr completely away from her parents is just a little strange. Like where did they even conceive this baby?? I can hardly imagine much privacy at the Academy, or wherever they trained. 

And yes, Afghanistan was totally Soviet "Vietnam" but the military involvement was on a smaller scale. Even Wikipedia says at the height of it there were 115k troops in the country. That's about 1/5th of what we had in Iraq in 2003. Well placed people were usually able to assign their conscripted kids to Moscow engineer battalion or some such. Or get a deferment for college. Basically I am not saying they should not have any characters ending up there, that would be completely false. But we already have Oleg's brother, Tatiana's brother and now Misha Jr. I love this show because it's very much character driven and this feels like a "plot point".

Regarding passports... It does not really matter how many foreign passports he has. Any way he leaves the country, he has to cross the border passport control. He is either crossing it on a foreign passport, in which case there have to be stamps of him coming into the country, registration papers (where he was staying), and a visa, and him pretending to be a foreigner; or he is crossing it on the external soviet passport (good luck getting one after the mental dissident institution) with a legitimate visa for the country to which he is travelling. Is he really going to waltz into the American embassy and get a visa? Swim across Black or Baltic sea? He is a twenty year old kid, not Jason Bourne.

And I am only critical because I think overall this show is brilliant and I guess my expectations are sky high. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Gella
Added more

[Chaos Theory]

I am willing to give this show a lot of rope.  It hasn't disappointed me yet.  There were a few slow stories.  Nina in Russia never took off....but the ending!  Wow!.  So I am willing to wait and see on the Mischa story and let the writers fill in the missing details as they go.   We don't need to know everything right now.  Maybe we will find out more about Irina as we go or maybe she will stay a vague reminder of who Philip was once.  The man he could have been.  As for Mischa....well there is no way the show will send the Jennings to Russia (there is no time for it and no reason for it)  so they are sending Russia to the Jennings.   Supporting characters are usually there to either shine a light on the main ones or to be stand ins for them.  Kimmy was a stand in for Philip's doubts and fears about recruiting Paige.  William shines a light on the loneliness the life the Jennings lead.  I can see Mischa being both a shining light on the Jennings and who they are and want to be and the contrast to Paige and Henry.

Ultimately I am willing to give the show a lot of rope when it comes to Mischa.  I can't name a story I didn't end up liking in the end so I can't see myself anything but loving Mischa and the part he will play in the future.  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am willing to give this show a lot of rope.  It hasn't disappointed me yet.  There were a few slow stories.  Nina in Russia never took off....but the ending!  Wow!.  So I am willing to wait and see on the Mischa story and let the writers fill in the missing details as they go.   We don't need to know everything right now.  Maybe we will find out more about Irina as we go or maybe she will stay a vague reminder of who Philip was once.

Answering this in the Philizabeth thread...

[gwhh]

A lot of people are talking about Phillip Russian son not being able to speak English as a problem on his trip to find his dad. But we are making an assumption that he does not speak English.  I think we may be wrong about that. 

Philip Russian son mother spoke English.  Remember she was speaking it very well with almost no accent when she was on the show.  

I see no reason why she would not teach English to her son. 

 

No no on the run episodes for the jenning clan please. Those been done to death on, many, many, other tv shows an tv series.  

Edited June 15, 2016 by gwhh

[jjj]

5 minutes ago, gwhh said:

I see no reason why she would not teach English to her son. 

Because she left him to be raised by his grandparents. 

[gwhh]

On June 9, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Hootis said:

I expect Mischa will be the final grain of sand that tips the scales enough for Philip.

Consider.  What will The Center think about Mischa showing up and (further) jeopardizing Philip's heart, loyalties and cover?  I think they'll want to disappear him YESTERDAY, and Philip would realize that instantly.  Mischa can't hide forever.

So season 5 might be dealing with the Mischa problem, and season 6....on the run?  From everybody!

Mischa was also a hostage (fact unsaid but understood) to keep Phillip on the street and narrow.    I also think that would be the thing that caused Phillip to go over all the way and defect.  

[Dowel Jones]

6 hours ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

If I were Philip and Stan was being an obnoxious frat boy over finding my 15 year old daughter making out with his son, I really think I might have punched him. 

A perfect return for Stan punching Philip for talking to his wife after the est meeting.

[AliShibaz]

29 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

A perfect return for Stan punching Philip for talking to his wife after the est meeting.

But they are still good racketball buddies.

BTW, in case anyone is interested, they play a very poor game of racketball. Racketball is a power game. Good players hit every most shot with a tremendous amount of power and there is a huge "CRACK" sound. Only very poor players and children play like these two guys where they just kind of swish at the ball.

I was very surprised because with the kind of connections these men have, I would have thought someone would have showed them how to hit a racket ball. Just go to Youtube and search for some high level racket ball games and you'll see the difference. It's like a whole other game.

Maybe it was just too much trouble to train these two actors to hit the ball well. It does take a fair bit of time to learn that skill.

[AllyB]

But Stan and Philip aren't high level players. Just a couple of buddies who play for fun/stress release. The only skill requirement for them, is that their skills match each other.

[kokapetl]

Maybe Paige saw the baby Tim, and now she wants a baby? 

[La Tortuga]

This season Stan has had an awkward dinner with a squirming Pastor Groovyhair and Alice, during which he found out that Tim has been arrested for protesting nuclear weapons, and he's (probably) aware that the pastor went missing in a Soviet controlled country. Now that William has spilled the beans that there's are married Directorate-S agents with kids, and that they live close enough for William to have interacted with them, I predict that Stan will start to suspect the Groovyhairs first. He will be wrong, of course, but this could ultimately lead him in the correct direction: across the street.

[BetyBee]

I've been thinking about what it must have sounded like to Philip to hear Gabriel say that his heart hasn't been in it for quite some time.  While that is true, it would hurt after all Philip has done for his country.  And I think it would remind him of the fact that Elizabeth ratted him out on his wavering state of mind.  They've never really addressed her betrayal of Philip in this regard.  I sensed a distance between them in last week's episode when Philip made a comment in the safe house about her.  I've forgotten the exact wording and will have to re-watch.  Maybe only he will defect or go into hiding, probably with Henry.  I could see Elizabeth and Paige continuing the espionage.  Their family dynamic is truly messed up at this point.  I do believe that P & E love each other and their kids, but I can't wait to see how this all shakes out.  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, La Tortuga said:

This season Stan has had an awkward dinner with a squirming Pastor Groovyhair and Alice, during which he found out that Tim has been arrested for protesting nuclear weapons, and he's (probably) aware that the pastor went missing in a Soviet controlled country. Now that William has spilled the beans that there's are married Directorate-S agents with kids, and that they live close enough for William to have interacted with them, I predict that Stan will start to suspect the Groovyhairs first. He will be wrong, of course, but this could ultimately lead him in the correct direction: across the street.

But surely he'd know actual Illegals would never do those things.

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I sensed a distance between them in last week's episode when Philip made a comment in the safe house about her.  I've forgotten the exact wording and will have to re-watch.  Maybe only he will defect or go into hiding, probably with Henry.  I could see Elizabeth and Paige continuing the espionage.  Their family dynamic is truly messed up at this point.  I do believe that P & E love each other and their kids, but I can't wait to see how this all shakes out.  

I didn't sense a distance. I think the comment you mean is when he said "You'll always have Elizabeth" to Gabriel, meaning that Elizabeth never doubted that what they were doing was helping the world no matter what the order. He said it, imo, in an affectionate way and it led to him saying "The Centre made a good match" - he was saying they worked well together. By the time Paige is an adult the USSR and Elizabeth's cause will not even be there and I don't think Philip would ever leave any of them. He and Elizabeth are both committed to their family being together and to each other.

[gwhh]

16 hours ago, jjj said:

Because she left him to be raised by his grandparents. 

Yes, he was raised.  But I am sure she was around.  And getting all the western cash and passports took time.  So she was planning to defect to the west for a long time before she was caught.  Remember, they said her mother lefts "clues & signs" for him to find Philip in the USA!!  So I am sure she taught her kid some basics English and since he was the son of a KGB agent and Directive S superstar.  He may had had the opportunity to take English classes in soviet school that normal student (non connected) students get to take.  He was an airborne unit and only the cream of soviet society (aka most trusted) commie got to be in those during the Cold War! 

 

I also think Phillip as a father hates that his little girl growing up and out!  Any father hates that day.  Even more when she could be use as a KGB asset to honey trap men and woman!  Plus dating the local FBI counter agent would set him off also.  And who knows if she really like Matt or if she liking him because it will make her parents happy with the intelligence.  Or is E&P are training her to be an agent / asset subconscious because that all they knew!  Father talk about killing there daughter boyfriend   There a pretty good chance phill will have to.   

I think Elizabeth problem.  Even more so than Phillip.  Elizabeth Only knows how to run an aseet or make an asset.  She been so conditioned to turn anyone she meets into that.  She has no clue has to make a real friend that not business related!  Makes one lonely and a bit stir crazy in my opinion.

Edited June 11, 2016 by gwhh

[Milburn Stone]

20 hours ago, panthergirl13 said:

...Someone here commented that they should have defined est as "group therapy'. I never heard anyone associated with est call it that..That's not to say it didn't have some value for me and for others I knew (a good friend did it instead of AA to quit drinking and it worked for him). But it was absolutely not group therapy.

I did EST in 1977. Like you I never signed up for any post-grad "trainings," never tried to rope anyone else into doing it, so didn't get sucked into any pyramid-scheme aspects (if there were any), but also like you I did find value in it. The thing the "trainer" in this episode said to Philip didn't ring true to my memory of EST's teachings. After Philip had talked about his commitments preventing him from walking away from his unsatisfying life, the trainer asked Philip, "What about your commitment to yourself?" (Or words to that effect.) One main teaching I got out of EST is that commitments to other people actually matter a lot. In EST, they called them "agreements," not commitments, but the idea was the same. By working in a job, you agree to respect the demands of the job and the structure of your workplace; by entering into a marriage you agree to honor the commitments of that marriage; by saying you'll meet a friend for coffee at 3, you agree to meet that friend for coffee at 3; etc. Commitments to self are important too, obviously, but I just don't see an EST teacher dismissing commitments to others so cavalierly. Maybe I got the wrong message out of my training. :)

Edited June 11, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

Yes, he was raised.  But I am sure she was around. 

Well, we have no idea if she was around or if so how much. Iirc, when Gabriel told Philip about him it seemed almost as if the KGB just learned that he existed, which would be unlikely if she was raising him, right? But maybe that was just Gabriel. Or maybe they've just never had a set idea about this since they didn't even know if he was real when they made him up. When we met her she seemed to be an embedded Illegal in Canada, which would mean very limited contact, and only one-way based on Elizabeth's experience. Maybe that was wrong, but there's no guarantee she was around a lot at all. Her sending him instructions to find Philip (sending clues and signs would be a bit silly--it's not a scavenger hunt) could just as easily be something she did only after she ran.

But also I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible he speaks English. Neither Philip nor Elizabeth probably had parents who spoke English and they learned it. But there's no particular reason he should speak it either. People have also talked about him speaking English, but with an accent or imperfectly.

[hellmouse]

15 hours ago, Gella said:

Regarding passports... It does not really matter how many foreign passports he has. Any way he leaves the country, he has to cross the border passport control. He is either crossing it on a foreign passport, in which case there have to be stamps of him coming into the country, registration papers (where he was staying), and a visa, and him pretending to be a foreigner; or he is crossing it on the external soviet passport (good luck getting one after the mental dissident institution) with a legitimate visa for the country to which he is travelling. Is he really going to waltz into the American embassy and get a visa? Swim across Black or Baltic sea? He is a twenty year old kid, not Jason Bourne.

It would be extremely difficult for him to leave. Maybe he won't make it out of Russia after all. Maybe he's captured and imprisoned and/or killed while trying to make his escape. His death could still have an impact on Philip. 

I listened to a podcast yesterday that was from the season 4 premiere. Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields talked about how every season has become more "real" and how important that is to their storytelling. I think that's why the Mischa Jr storyline strikes such a discordant note to me, partly because it was born out of such a confusing storyline (Irina) and partly because it doesn't feel real to me that this kid would be able to get to the states and find Philip that easily. Although maybe that is why they need six seasons instead of five, lol. 

It would seem more believable, to me, if he tried to get to the states and failed, and in the attempt somehow affects the lives of the Jenningses. And also because in this attempt, he might interact with some of the characters who've made their way back to Russia, particularly Oleg and Arkady. Either one could legitimately be in a position to interact with Mischa Jr, and that might be interesting to see.

Edited June 11, 2016 by hellmouse

[Umbelina]

Arkady might know of the Jennings, but I seriously doubt Oleg did, and I can't see any way he would even meet them, let alone get them to help him.

When I said my friend's original escape plan was in the area around the Black Sea, that didn't mean swimming it.  As far as his Passports, we don't know what stamps are in them, but that's a good point, and I don't think any of them have his real name inside.  I think these writers are good enough, and the people they use for research are good enough, that we'll get a decent story out of this, whatever it might be. 

We shall see.

[hellmouse]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Arkady might know of the Jennings, but I seriously doubt Oleg did, and I can't see any way he would even meet them, let alone get them to help him.

When I said my friend's original escape plan was in the area around the Black Sea, that didn't mean swimming it.  As far as his Passports, we don't know what stamps are in them, but that's a good point, and I don't think any of them have his real name inside.  I think these writers are good enough, and the people they use for research are good enough, that we'll get a decent story out of this, whatever it might be. 

We shall see.

I don't foresee them helping him. I was thinking that if he got into trouble, they might be involved in his arrest or interrogation. Maybe Arkady is sent to East ro West Germany to run the rezidentura, and Mischa Jr gets caught there. Or maybe Oleg questions him in Moscow, but upon hearing his story of Afghanistan and wanting to find his family (and be a good son), decides to turn a blind eye to his activity rather than report him. IDK.

[RedheadZombie]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Dang, I really thought they caught her!  That settles it, I'm going to buy the DVD's and watch it all again.  She did turn on her own after Stan killed her friend Vlad!  duh.  Thanks!

I remember the scene, but not every detail.  I don't remember if it was Arkady, or the gross old dude that Nina gave the BJ to.  But Nina had been given some sort of promotion and was taking a loyalty pledge.  It was as if reciting that pledge inspired patriotism and/or guilt, and she spilled her guts.  It was probably Arkady because I remember him attempting to protect her.  It wasn't Vlad alone that turned her back.  But I only saw the episode once and I'm going off of memory alone.

[jjj]

4 hours ago, gwhh said:

 Remember, they said her mother lefts "clues & signs" for him to find Philip in the USA!! 

No, Mischa himself said she was going to leave "instructions" (not clues and signs) on how to find his father.  Not sure who "they" are? 

8 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I don't remember if it was Arkady, or the gross old dude that Nina gave the BJ to.  But Nina had been given some sort of promotion and was taking a loyalty pledge. 

Yes, that was Arkady who heard Nina's confession and arranged to protect her in exchange for the information they thought they would be able to get; the old guy whom Nina serviced did not seem to have much interest in the operation the way that Arkady did. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, jjj said:

Yes, that was Arkady who heard Nina's confession and arranged to protect her in exchange for the information they thought they would be able to get; the old guy whom Nina serviced did not seem to have much interest in the operation the way that Arkady did. 

The old guy didn't even know about it--he'd been shipped off to Siberia thanks to Stan setting him up to protect Nina. Arkady had replaced him.

[jjj]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

The old guy didn't even know about it--he'd been shipped off to Siberia thanks to Stan setting him up to protect Nina. Arkady had replaced him.

Thanks, yes, that is what I meant.  Arkady brought a new sense of direction to the top of the organization, so far as we could see.

[jjj]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Given Philip's disgusting involvement with Kimmy, I don't think he is in any position to pass judgement on Stan's obnoxiousness.  If Stan deserves to be punched, what does Philip deserve?

Oh, I think Philip deserves a commendation for turning down the naked Kimmie and inviting her into a prayer session. 

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Arkady might know of the Jennings, but I seriously doubt Oleg did, and I can't see any way he would even meet them, let alone get them to help him.

Arkady definitely knows of the Jennigses. After the Jared fiasco, Philip (in his Trotsky disguise) approached Arkady at a bookstore and told him that if the Centre went after Paige, he and Elizabeth were finished.

[AllyB]

4 hours ago, jjj said:

Yes, that was Arkady who heard Nina's confession and arranged to protect her in exchange for the information they thought they would be able to get; the old guy whom Nina serviced did not seem to have much interest in the operation the way that Arkady did. 

Vasili was mostly a fine Resident, remember he was even so hands on that he was still personally maintaining assets in the field. And it was down to this that the KGB discovered they had a mole in the Rezindentura.

Arkady was just exceptional.

[txhorns79]

Quote

This season Stan has had an awkward dinner with a squirming Pastor Groovyhair and Alice, during which he found out that Tim has been arrested for protesting nuclear weapons, and he's (probably) aware that the pastor went missing in a Soviet controlled country. Now that William has spilled the beans that there's are married Directorate-S agents with kids, and that they live close enough for William to have interacted with them, I predict that Stan will start to suspect the Groovyhairs first. He will be wrong, of course, but this could ultimately lead him in the correct direction: across the street.

I think even if he did suspect the Groovyhairs, the first thing he would do was conduct a general background check.  He'd see that Pastor and Mrs. Groovyhair aren't using fake identities, like all the other illegals he's tracked, so he'd probably realize they are legit and let it go.  

I did giggle at Oleg and Tatiania in the hallway.  He looks like he's almost three feet taller than her. 

[jjj]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

Vasili was mostly a fine Resident, remember he was even so hands on

Oh, yes, Nina would testify to that...

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I think even if he did suspect the Groovyhairs, the first thing he would do was conduct a general background check. 

Plus, William said the mystery family had "a couple of kids", and that is not the Groovyhairs profile.  And presumably the Groovyhair fingerprints are in the system because of his arrest, and there will not be a match to Clark's there. 

For a moment in this finale, when William started rambling about "they wanted me to be married," if I had been one of the agents, I would have started wondering if either William were part of the mystery couple, or if he had been "Clark," because a married illegal is what they were looking for, and he was not at all clear about the status of his marriage. 

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, we have no idea if she was around or if so how much. Iirc, when Gabriel told Philip about him it seemed almost as if the KGB just learned that he existed, which would be unlikely if she was raising him, right?

The sense I got from that scene is that the Centre had just learned that Mischa might be Philip's son, not that she had a son at all. Presumably that wouldn't have been a secret regardless of whether she was raising him herself; the KGB seems to keep pretty close tabs on its operatives' family members.

But it's a testament to how murky the entire Irina storyline has been that everyone has such different impressions about what it was implying. If I thought it was clearly implied that Irina was not an embedded illegal, and it was just as clear to others that she was, that's pretty solid evidence that it wasn't clear in either direction.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Dev F said:

But it's a testament to how murky the entire Irina storyline has been that everyone has such different impressions about what it was implying. If I thought it was clearly implied that Irina was not an embedded illegal, and it was just as clear to others that she was, that's pretty solid evidence that it wasn't clear in either direction.

Yeah, it seems like the fact was they honestly didn't work it out and intentionally left everything vague and then just now decided he should be both real and a character. For instance, leaving aside Irina's whole situation one way or the other, remember her last exchange with Philip? He asked her if "any of it" was true--meaning this whole story about not really leaving him for another guy and having a baby. At this point Irina is on the brink of running away and risking jail and execution. She apparently has an actual son and either then or shortly thereafter (who knows how or if she could keep in touch with him while on the run--seems impossible) is going to send this son to find his dad in the US if he wants.

You'd think in that situation she'd take her one moment with Philip to get serious and say yes, this kid exists and whatever he thinks about her, could he think about him? Does she take a moment to own the fact that she's a manipulative liar that deserves nothing from him (much less a candidate for him to spend the rest of his life with on the run) but put in a good word for the kid to redeem herself? Like, if she gets caught maybe he can somehow help him? No, she takes that moment to give him a coy, cryptic answer to tease him

[Blakeston]

On 6/10/2016 at 8:39 PM, Gabrielle Tracy said:

If I were Philip and Stan was being an obnoxious frat boy over finding my 15 year old daughter making out with his son, I really think I might have punched him.  That was just gross.

Stan's reaction was tone-deaf and weird, but I don't think he was being particularly bro-ish.

His tone wasn't, "My son is gettin' some from your daughter! He da man!" It was more like, "Oh my god, our kids like each other, if they get married that means we'll be even closer BFFs, right?"

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, jjj said:

For a moment in this finale, when William started rambling about "they wanted me to be married"...

Just a word about how fine the handling of William's disclosure was. In a less-good show (which means, practically every other show), the way that would have worked was, "Well, I'm going to die soon anyway, no reason for me to hold back the truth now." Instead, this was William delirious with suffering, his life-regrets liquifying and coming out his orifices with no more will on his part than with the internal organs that would soon follow them.

[sistermagpie]

We haven't even mentioned yet what he said about his own marriage, that he seemed to be talking about it as a failure of his own, or something he didn't work at then. Maybe there were other factors about her he just didn't care about now (them fighting would be reason to separate them, perhaps, but not send her back) but it's interesting how the character even before this seemed to focus on that relationship as so important. It's like the one relationship he could have had.

[jjj]

I think it is significant that they did not show us William dying.  Will next season start with that, and additional cryptic comments from him?  There was no cure coming for him, but there was a piece of punctuation that we did not get. 

Did anyone figure out the timeline of this episode?  Superbowl was a Sunday -- any hint of the day William ran from the FBI?  Stan had several days of facial hair by the time he returned home on Superbowl Sunday, but no obvious facial hair when we last saw him with William -- did more days elapse? 

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

I think it is significant that they did not show us William dying.  Will next season start with that, and additional cryptic comments from him?  There was no cure coming for him, but there was a piece of punctuation that we did not get. 

Did anyone figure out the timeline of this episode?  Superbowl was a Sunday -- any hint of the day William ran from the FBI?  Stan had several days of facial hair by the time he returned home on Superbowl Sunday, but no obvious facial hair when we last saw him with William -- did more days elapse? 

William told Philip that it took 3 or 4 days to die of Lassa virus. 

[jjj]

1 minute ago, RedHawk said:

William told Philip that it took 3 or 4 days to die of Lassa virus. 

Thanks -- I will watch again in the near future and try to figure out when the days are occurring -- for example, when William hit his rambling delirium, was that day two, or day four?  The offer of a Coke was day one.  Were there two more days after William talked about his marriage and his envy of the unnamed couple and their kids?  The facial hair would suggest yes. 

[wendyg]

What I find really attractive about Keri Russell is her voice - unlike many American actors, she has a really rich voice that she really uses well. Much more like a British actor, in fact.

Er...sorry. The discussion that this followed was in a different topic.

Edited June 12, 2016 by wendyg

[queenanne]

On 6/9/2016 at 1:22 AM, Conan Troutman said:

I did expect a bit more of a fallout, at least as the central characters were concerned. However, most of the actual changes happened in the Rezidentura. I did not expect Arkady to get booted off like that, but that was a great scene. Tatiana sure wasn't pleased, either. By the way, I never noticed before how tall Oleg is. Maybe he should've played in that Super Bowl? Maybe Washington would've had a chance after all...

Yeah, I noticed last week Oleg was really big juxtaposed standing up with Tatiana, which was funny because Annet is wee also, you would think I’d have noticed before.

On 6/9/2016 at 6:26 AM, SlackerInc said:

I was a bit underwhelmed by this finale.  It wasn't terrible, but the season has been so strong up to this point that I found it a bit underwhelming.  In particular, it seemed to end with a whimper rather than a bang.  And I agree with the recapper: if Philip thinks they are quite likely to be fleeing anyway, why bother telling Paige he doesn't want her seeing Matthew?

I was sure all season that this was the best season so far, but you gotta stick the landing.  S1 and S3 did so (S2 had the terrible Jared reveal and dying infodump, ugh).

I think they skipped the boat not embarking on some frantic cogitations over whether or not P&E should bring Henry into the fold.  I mean, that’s the appropriate response to me, some frantic devolution, not the relaxed “Huh.  I guess we can just stand around and look mildly perplexed about this possibility, since we know we’ve got 2 more seasons and no one is actually going back to Russia.”

On 6/9/2016 at 11:03 AM, stagmania said:

This is actually a really common character trope that a whole boatload of shows are based around, commonly referred to as a Vocational Irony Narrative. The super competent fixer can't fix their own life, the intuitive detective completely misses what's going on with their own loved ones, etc. I don't actually agree that Stan is stupid (is the guy not allowed to have a light-hearted goofy moment?), but even if you read it as him being incompetent in his own life despite his job skills, that's a perfectly valid characterization choice. 

Don’t forget, the “Otherwise, the Whole Show is Over” Trope, where Person A can never actually give Person B a clear answer or ask a logical question, because with that clear answer or logical question down comes the entire house of cards; and/or people have to hang a lantern on the situation by commenting ironically “That’s the worst mug shot I’ve ever seen!  Was the eyewitness blind!”

I don't really know what they're doing with Misha Jr. either, I only hope it's not a mistaken fizzle in the making.  As others have mentioned, I was perfectly satisfied having him as an un-enumerated constant figure in the background.

[Gella]

Given what happened to Misha's mother he would be under some sort of observation. Someone would keep tabs on him (and his grandfather) so he'd go nowhere. 

But more to the point, I still can't get over the fact that this "dissident" would have any interest in searching for his father, an active KGB officer. 

Yes, we know Philip is conflicted and possibly less than enthused about the cause. His son has no way of knowing that. 

As far as English. Yes, he would have learnt either English or French or German in school. I don't see how that would make his task of getting to America any easier. 

I also find it silly that we need this external son to introduce conflict, when Henry's situation remains entirely unresolved. He is completely in the dark and he is personally emotionally attached to an FBI agent next door. Yes, Paige seems to be getting on board with the spying but what if Henry was vehemently against it. Would that not provide a better source of soul searching for Phillip rather than some son he has never met?

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, Gella said:

But more to the point, I still can't get over the fact that this "dissident" would have any interest in searching for his father, an active KGB officer.

Did Irina tell him he's a KGB officer, or just that he's a travel agent in America? If it's just the latter, he might think his dad is someone who grew dissatisfied with the USSR and defected, which would make him a kindred spirit.

Though the more I think about this particular revelation, the more I wonder about the logistics of it. Why would Irina know about her childhood love's cover identity? Seems like the most logical explanation is that she told her son this right before she left on the mission depicted in season 1, after she knew that they would both be using "travel agent" as a cover identity for that particular mission. And I suppose it makes sense that she might break operational security in the excitement of getting to see Philip again after so many years: "I'm going to see your father in America! He's . . . a travel agent there." Maybe Mischa imagines that she tried to defect to join him in America but the Russians apprehended her?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

id Irina tell him he's a KGB officer, or just that he's a travel agent in America?

The way they referred to him it sounded like he thought he was just a travel agent--but then, that could just be how it sounded. We don't know what the kid knew about Irina either. It would fit the pattern of Irina, I guess, to lie to the kid and tell him something that would create danger for everyone or else make no sense. If he thinks he's a travel agent he'd be looking for a Russian travel agent, right? Under his real name? Does Mischa Jr. know his real name? If he knows he's an Illegal is he planning to sneak up on him and just assume he'd be glad to see a great big cover-blower?

 

12 hours ago, Gella said:

Given what happened to Misha's mother he would be under some sort of observation. Someone would keep tabs on him (and his grandfather) so he'd go nowhere. 

 

I was thinking that too. (Granted they somehow missed Irina's "Escape to America" kit that her grandfather somehow got and is hiding under a mattress....)

The one thing I thought of, based on the show's past, would be if he did try to run and got caught. The Centre has shown a willingness to arrange some things to keep their agents happy, so that might keep him from severely punished for it if they wanted him alive . If he said he wanted to find his father in the US, maybe the Centre would say okay, we'll let your father send you a tape. Or send Philip one from him. Though I'd expect the kid would want to hear from him.

I don't know if this works logically either--maybe there's a million things I'm not thinking of there, but the one thing I didn't mind about it is that it kept Mischa Jr. back in Russia where he belongs and just used it the way Elizabeth's tapes were used. It could even be dramatic for Philip to get to record a message in Russian (I know MR doesn't speak it but it would really make no sense for him to do it in English and I'd be annoyed) where he laid out some emotions about the situation and the kid without the plot revolving around the kid. Iow, he'd still be used more the way he had been, as an idea.

I'm not sure if that would work either, but at least it connects to this idea with which I agree:

12 hours ago, Gella said:

I also find it silly that we need this external son to introduce conflict, when Henry's situation remains entirely unresolved. He is completely in the dark and he is personally emotionally attached to an FBI agent next door. Yes, Paige seems to be getting on board with the spying but what if Henry was vehemently against it. Would that not provide a better source of soul searching for Phillip rather than some son he has never met?

Philip has a son at home that he did raise but from whom he's completely separated from emotionally as long as Henry doesn't know who he is. To me it doesn't even seem like the conflict is about spying for the Soviets, although Henry seems far more likely to be against that. Paige herself is spying to protect her parents more than being pro-Soviet herself. Henry's interested in older men as role models, but currently exists in a grey area where he wants to mix adult and child stuff--playing trivial pursuit and bowling while also staring at his teacher's boobs and trying beer. Matthew and Paige couldn't have been more on the nose in their discussion in the finale about how growing up means seeing your parents as people--people who might do stuff you hate like have affairs or be foreign spies or piss you off or kill people.

This is what Henry's locked out of and he I think he wants in as much as Paige did. For all Stan's faults as a father he has at least crossed that barrier a little bit with Matthew. Philip's still in the "I'm talking to you but I'm not really talking to you because you're a kid" mode of dealing with Henry. That is a far more interesting relationship than one with a guy he's never met but is connected to through the cipher who is Irina, despite the whole political aspect. 

Also Paige has crossed that line of maturity with her parents and is now often part of their secret discussions. This is often also shown symbolically but her helping her mother or her father cook. Her parents run off to whisper with her whenever she walks into the house. Crises like the attempted (as far as Henry knows) mugging are also handled with the three of them together. 

Henry responded to this in part by hanging out with Stan and then Matthew, who is around more than Stan. But Paige has now taken over that relationship by fooling around with him. The two of them, too, have adult conversations about what it's like to be so mature and see your parents as people. Stan is amused/happy about the two of them as a couple while Philip is concerned she's sublimating her emotions to manipulation. So Henry's now been pushed aside by Paige at the Beemans' house as well. Stan himself is still more Henry-focused, but that's even the main reason Paige professes to be there--to keep an eye on and maybe interfere with that relationship because Henry might say something. Not to mention, Stan's bff is Philip.

So far Henry's been very easy-going about this, but he's possibly still in the dark about Paige/Matthew. It seems like he should react to this. 

[jjj]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

If he thinks he's a travel agent he'd be looking for a Russian travel agent, right? Under his real name? Does Mischa Jr. know his real name? If he knows he's an Illegal is he planning to sneak up on him and just assume he'd be glad to see a great big cover-blower?

Also, it is not clear that Mischa Jr. knows his father sounds and appears to be Mr. Middle America, with perfect English and apparently perfect middle American family.  I have to trust the showrunners to take this down a road we can't imagine.  Also, Gabriel indicated that KGB was keeping track of Mischa Jr. while he was in the army.  We did not know then if Mischa were real or not!  But now that we have seen him, we can accept that Gabriel was getting reports on him. 

[kokapetl]

Sometimes this show just doesn't make much sense. 

[Umbelina]

I do trust the writers.  My hunch is that Misha is a dead man walking.

As far as Philip already having a son?  Yes, he has an American son, a son who is safe and at home, and doesn't know anything about Russia, let alone real life in Russia.  This is a completely different thing than his Russian son.  Night and Day difference really.

I think Philip is moving more and more away from whatever ideology he has.  His son's story about "how Russia is now" could be a game changer, for both him and possibly for Elizabeth as well.  There is no way Henry would fill that role.

More and more I'm thinking Misha is either killed escaping, or, and this seems like it would be a better story, does escape and turns himself into an embassy, and is used by the US as a propaganda tool.  Imagine Philip and Elizabeth watching a press conference while Misha spells out exactly how he feels about his country?  Now, the biggest danger would be if during that press conference, or possibly in debriefing with the FBI, he spills that his dad is a travel agent, and Stan reads or hears that.

Misha could be the thing that

• possibly exposes them to Stan for real
• makes them rethink the idea of taking the kids and moving back to Russia
• splits the couple up because Philip believes him and Elizabeth doesn't

Actually there are many possibilities.  The LAST thing I expect the writers to do is have Misha miraculously showing up at the Jennings' door.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 6/12/2016 at 4:50 PM, jjj said:

Thanks -- I will watch again in the near future and try to figure out when the days are occurring -- for example, when William hit his rambling delirium, was that day two, or day four?  The offer of a Coke was day one.  Were there two more days after William talked about his marriage and his envy of the unnamed couple and their kids?  The facial hair would suggest yes. 

That's a great idea.  I had posted a question about that upthread.  I was wondering why it took P & E so long to get home after meeting with Gabriel.  It was light when they met outside. (That time of year the sun would have set near 4:30 p.m.) Then, when they return home, the Super Bowl (Sunday) is over according to Henry.  On The East Coast, the Super Bowl normally ends near 10:00 p.m., so where were P & E for all that time?   Later, Stan returns home and we are left to wonder if he must have died, since he was looking pretty ill and Stan left his bedside. It's doubtful Stan would have left if William was alive, even if he were in a coma. 

[jjj]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That's a great idea.  I had posted a question about that upthread.  I was wondering why it took P & E so long to get home after meeting with Gabriel.  It was light when they met outside. (That time of year the sun would have set near 4:30 p.m.) Then, when they return home, the Super Bowl (Sunday) is over according to Henry.  On The East Coast, the Super Bowl normally ends near 10:00 p.m., so where were P & E for all that time?  

The 1984 Super Bowl started at 4:45 PM/ET, and finished before 8:30. 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 Now, the biggest danger would be if during that press conference, or possibly in debriefing with the FBI, he spills that his dad is a travel agent, and Stan reads or hears that.

Completely agree that this is a real danger.  I said a few weeks ago (Dinner for Seven) that there are any number of live wires out in the open that could connect and spark -- and this is another one.   All Stan needs (he does not know this) is for the right two wires to touch, and he will have the piece of information he needs to discover the identity of the illegals he has been sensing. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by jjj

[gwhh]

Meanwhile back in the USSR:

 

[SlackerInc]

On 6/9/2016 at 8:16 AM, Bannon said:

I didn't see it as creepy. I saw it as extraordinarily stupid.This is a guy who is in a profession where reading people, and anticipating their reactions, is supposed to be a fundamental skill set. Yet he is completely, absolutely, totally, oblivious to the notion of the father of a 15 or 16 year old daughter  being very angry about his daughter making out, in a home without any parents present, with Stan's 17 or maybe 18 year old son. Stan's a stone cold moron, and this season went downhill as he was given more time. For the life of me, I don't understand why the writers thought having a really stupid character given a lot of time was a good choice for this show. He's not quite Col.Klink, but he's not far from it, and this isn't supposed to be a "Hogan's Heros" reboot.

Do you actually think he's stupid in a professional sense?  Because they have shown him "Sherlocking" a number of times.

On 6/9/2016 at 9:18 AM, ahpny said:

The USSR generally didn’t allow non-dissidents to leave in the mid-1980’s.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought they did allow (or even encourage) dissidents to leave, so they wouldn't be around to stir up trouble with the native population.  But then a lot of times the dissidents, if they were brave, refused.

On 6/9/2016 at 9:24 AM, RedHawk said:

I agree that the previews giving away William's sacrifice was a real misstep. The preview editors usually work so hard to obfuscate and confuse, so what were they thinking?!

Like stagmania, this just reinforces my policy of avoiding previews like the plague.  I suspect most showrunners hate them--they are just forced to have them by network policy, I think.