S08.E09: December: Berkshires County

[Yours Truly]

27 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Well, people do that (as I mentioned, example: Brandi Glanville) but for example the case with Rey, LuAnn objected to Sonja casting him as her "lover" which implies she was having sex with him, she tried to obfuscate.  I mean, was she in a relationship with Rey?  It doesn't seem so.  Did she fuck him several times?  Yes, it would seem so....I'm thinking a sexually free woman who makes no apologies would have no problem with people knowing Rey was a sexual fling or hookup. 

But the fact that she fucked him was irrelevant to what Lu was talking about as well as Sonja's insertion of the label. I don't think Lu means to deny or apologize about it or hide it. And like I said before I think her initial denial was the idea that he was her lover at that moment. I think the women blindside her with these details and introduce these private tidbits in such abrupt ways that she is taken aback and not ready for it and since these particular details aren't even in context with what's being discussed there's a whole lotta "are you outta ya mind" reactions from Lu cause I'd be pretty confused what one has got to do with the other and most of the time we are really seeing Lu's "seriously?" reaction and not so much the "oh no not me" reaction.  Also whats wrong with her having a little bit of the vapors when people keep casually throwing in details into conversations about the mileage of her pussy? I'm not surprised that her gut reaction is to be defensive. I mean once in awhile to rile her up, whattayagonnado but now it's becoming a thing where Lu might as well wear a speedometer on her crotch so that the others can just freely check it whenever they like and save fucking time. Whether it's true or not I can understand why Lu isn't a fan. Also, the way its being put out there is for Lu to determine. So she's supposed to bow her head and except it when let's say Ramona describes her as a truck stop floosy? She's wrong if she cries foul because she isn't onboard with the way they are presenting her sexual escapades. Lu has a right to be speak out against HOW it's being described and relayed to others and I think that's what Lu is demonstrating not that she's trying to hide anything but that she's unhappy about the bad context people are putting it in.

Note: I am well aware of Adam and Carole's situation. Beat to death so please no counters with Well she called Carole a pedophile THAT'S putting her sex life in a bad context. Okay sure. It was meant as an insult and not to be taken literally during a very obvious conflict with Carole. These women are trying to insult her during no specifically established beef and at the same time yelling at her to accept their insults as her truth so that THEY can feel better about who Lu really is. It's maddening I tell ya complete madness.

28 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Maybe, but as I said, there are women who would be like "yeah, I am and it's awesome!".

Lu isn't wrong that she doesn't want to wave that banner.

Maybe she's cool with waving the "Ya'll know what the deal is wink, wink" banner and that should be fine too.

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Yeah, I do think there are plenty of women who would respond by saying "yeah, I'm a big old slut, what of it!?!?!?", even HW's (Brandi, Erika, Bethenny, Sonja to name a few). Is fucking everyone something to be ashamed of? I thought that was the point of being sexually free. 

But why does Lu HAVE to be like those women?  Why can't she be allowed to CHOOSE whether she broadcasts her sexual experiences or not?

(And Erika Jayne has not said anything about being a big ole slut.  I don't think her rich boss daddy husband would appreciate her fucking lots of guys, whether openly or not).

[shoegal]

12 minutes ago, izabella said:

Yes, Sonja already knew ad knew about Ibiza, so why was it so important to Sonja that Luann repeat it on camera?  She wanted to embarrass Lu, that's why.  She wasn't saying, "you go girl, get your freak on!" she wanted Lu to tell everyone that she has sex with guys, which we all also knew already. 

I don't think that about Sonja at all, Sonja sees it as a victory lap. Now So ja is a woman that I would say is sexually free with no apologies. I think if anyone called Sonja a slut, she'd say 'I'M TRYING!!'.

9 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

No she never claimed his as a "lover" she simply stated that while she had sex with him he wasn't what she considered a "lover." People can in fact describe their sexual partners in any terms they see fit. Lu went even into a bit of detail why he she wouldn't use that term. I have had hookups with guys and if someone asked if they were my "lover, " I would say no fucking way they were a hoookup, though to be fair I would never use the term "lover" because it's ridiculous but clear Sonja and Lu talk about and they define it on their own terms.

LuAnn's was hemming and hawing until Sonja had to flat out clarify, sex or no sex. 

[Midnight Cheese]

30 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

My guess is women have a very difficult time being a "sexually free woman with no apologies" because of people like Beth who yell, "slut" and "whore" at them.

This.  Bethenny did a lot of twitchy work to retcon this with Carole and Jules and in a TH, but the most truthful truth was her tone, expression and pace of speech screaming at LuAnn, "I don't care if you're the biggest whore in Macy's window" and LuAnn's stunned and shocked face in response.

To come back from that and say, 'hey I like sex too!' is disingenuous as it gets.  Bethenny was flat-out and clearly trying to humiliate LuAnn for her sexual behavior.  It's pathetic and the act of a starving fucking hater.  Or a fucking-hater, who knows. 

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, seasick said:

I'm a little confused about the idea of "no slut-shaming"   To my knowledge "slut "  is a derogatory term. (well uh,  LuAnn certainly didn't like it.)   

So is this now going to start  "no thief shaming"  or "no wife-abuse shaming" ? Aren't sluts shameless by nature-isn't that why they are sluts?     Being a slut is a good thing now and we're not allowed to shame the sluts anymore???  (life is getting less and less fun I tell ya!)  

Now I get "no fat shaming" because we kind of turned  'fat' into a negative.   Like how when Michael asked Oscar if it bothered him being called "Mexican'.  ("no Michael, i am Mexican")  But all the sluts should stand tall now??!  

I don't know if we can emancipate the term 'slut' from slur-ville.  Seems women still aren't taking to it.  I can understand no 'fuck-shaming".  I can understand not bowing to the double-standard, and I don't know where the official 'slut-court' is who determines true slut-hood but sluts should be ashamed and i will not stop shaming them!    Shame sluts!  Shaaaame!

It is the idea of shaming or in this case attacking a woman for being sexual, having one or more partners, acknowledging sexual feelings and or acting on sexual feelings.

It is really a two part test first the person accused of shaming has to make a judgment the woman in question is a slut and the second part is speaking or attacking them in such a way as to shame the sexual feelings, or activities. .

[izabella]

3 minutes ago, shoegal said:

LuAnn's was hemming and hawing until Sonja had to flat out clarify, sex or no sex. 

But why was it necessary for Sonja to clarify, for the tv viewers, ANYTHING about that guy and whether Lu had sex with him or not?  It's none of her fucking business, and wasn't relevant to anything.  She did it to embarrass and/or humiliate Lu, that's it. 

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

I don't care if you're the biggest whore in Macy's window" 

I meant to ask is this a phrase and WTF does it mean? Is luann Santa Claus? Is Santa a whore?

Also, Bethanny wanting to sleep with a woman is on her bucket list but she can't go down on a women because they smell bad. Girl if your vagina smells bad there is probably something wrong with your health.

Edited June 3, 2016 by biakbiak

[shoegal]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

But why does Lu HAVE to be like those women?  Why can't she be allowed to CHOOSE whether she broadcasts her sexual experiences or not?

(And Erika Jayne has not said anything about being a big ole slut.  I don't think her rich boss daddy husband would appreciate her fucking lots of guys, whether openly or not).

I don't think LuAnn HAS to be like those women, I'm just saying those women exist.  She can choose to broadcase whatever she wants, and we can choose to have opinions about it.  

...and Erika Jayne thinks hookers are fabulous, so I am making the assumption she would think the same of sluts.  

[Yours Truly]

23 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

You really believe there are women who would respond to "You fuck everyone" in that manner?  Most women, sexually free or not, would be rightfully insulted.  Being sexually free doesn't mean "you fuck everyone."  Being insulted by being called a slut and a whore doesn't mean you don't OWN being sexually free.  You can be sexually free and not be a slut, a whore, and fuck everyone.  Expecting her to just capitulate to a harping loon that she fucks everyone because she's proud of beign sexually free is ridiculous.  It's like yelling at an overweight person who likes her so-called curves, "You EAT everything" and then being surprised that their feelings are hurt.  It doesn't mean the overweight person isn't proud of their bodies the way they are.  It's that they are being insulted by someone being vicious.  

Exactly! Lu being offended at the INSULTS being hurled her way is basic cause and effect. Can't believe on women screaming you're a slut OWN IT, you fuck everybody, your a whore is somehow justified because well Lu does have sex.

Little note: Instead of typing "Lu does have sex" I initially was going to write "Lu sleeps around" but stopped myself because that seemed crude and untrue. You see phrases and words have a specific use whether we like it or not. No amount of "I take the meaning out of the word so it's not offensive to me" changes that.... Sleeping around, in my mind means someone who is stepping out on there mate and sleeping with other people while in a committed relationship so that's why I changed it to Lu has sex...

I think Lu is still very allergic to particular phrases and the wording of things. I think she has made a conscious effort to bring Lu back into the forefront while trying shift The Countess into the shadows. But hell certain tendencies and reactions aren't going to go away overnight and some most likely will never go away and I think she's been making a nice transition into just being her. Plus, there are some lessons that are pretty useful to not let go of. Why should she? Which means the Countess will appear on occasion because shit. I'm sure there are some pretty relevant practices that could apply across the board and not just when you hanging with royalty.. ;-)

[sasha206]

17 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Yeah, I do think there are plenty of women who would respond by saying "yeah, I'm a big old slut, what of it!?!?!?", even HW's (Brandi, Erika, Bethenny, Sonja to name a few). Is fucking everyone something to be ashamed of? I thought that was the point of being sexually free. 

Because "fucking everyone" is such a bullshit statement meant to insult.  Sexually free doesn't mean you fuck everything that moves with absolutely no discernment.  

[shoegal]

Just now, izabella said:

But why was it necessary for Sonja to clarify, for the tv viewers, ANYTHING about that guy and whether Lu had sex with him or not?  It's none of her fucking business, and wasn't relevant to anything.  She did it to embarrass and/or humiliate Lu, that's it. 

That assumes Sonja believes that LuAnn should be embarrassed or humiliated because she fucked Rey.  I don't believe that about Sonja, I think she believes that there is nothing to be embarrassed or humiliated about.  I think she thinks it's fun and fabulous.  

Ramona, on the other hand, has judgement.  I don't think Sonja does in the least. 

[izabella]

Just now, shoegal said:

...and Erika Jayne thinks hookers are fabulous, so I am making the assumption she would think the same of sluts.  

I doubt she would be happy to be called a hooker or a slut or a gold digger or a whore, on camera or off.  I doubt anyone would.  Maybe she likes being called "Erika necklace" by her make-up entourage, but if someone hurled those words at her as insults, she would take them as the insults they were intended to be.

[Yours Truly]

23 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Yeah, I do think there are plenty of women who would respond by saying "yeah, I'm a big old slut, what of it!?!?!?", even HW's (Brandi, Erika, Bethenny, Sonja to name a few). Is fucking everyone something to be ashamed of? I thought that was the point of being sexually free. 

You do realize that most people don't like Brandi right?

And Erika plays one on TV soooo

And Bethenny hasn't really been up front with her romantic details these last two seasons...

But yeah Lu is completely wrong not to lap up that slut shame...

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Midnight Cheese]

Just now, izabella said:

But why was it necessary for Sonja to clarify, for the tv viewers, ANYTHING about that guy and whether Lu had sex with him or not?  It's none of her fucking business, and wasn't relevant to anything.  She did it to embarrass and/or humiliate Lu, that's it. 

Right?  Because Sonja may be honest about the form of intercourse she prefers with leftover pirates, but she has lied about her financial state, her businesses, whether water and heat and air conditioning can be accessed in her homes.  Sonja isn't honest, it wasn't her business, and in that scene, I didn't see LuAnn duck or hide from anything.  What was she supposed to say?  "Well, he had had 6 drinks so I had to blow him for an annoyingly long period of time before he could..."? 

I believe Sonja has judgment and it's increased this season, and it's tangled up in her own insecurities.  LuAnn has been divorced for less time by several years, but LuAnn is engaged and had a significant relationship with Jacques.  (She's also constantly promoting her actual mass-marketed fashion collection).  Sonja wants someone to be equal than or lower to her in this universe, but she seems SOL.

[shoegal]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

I doubt she would be happy to be called a hooker or a slut or a gold digger or a whore, on camera or off.  I doubt anyone would.  Maybe she likes being called "Erika necklace" by her make-up entourage, but if someone hurled those words at her as insults, she would take them as the insults they were intended to be.

Erika regularly throws around "c*nt" (I'm only doing the * thing because I believe that word is off limits, but I personally have no problem with the word) to describe herself, so I'm guessing she would not be pearl clutching over slut or whore. YMMV, so I agree to disagree with you on this. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by shoegal

[izabella]

1 minute ago, shoegal said:

Erika regularly throws around "c*nt" (I'm only doing the * thing because I believe that word is off limits, but I personally have no problem with the word) to describe herself, so I'm guessing she would not be pearl clutching over slut or whore. YMMV, so I agree to disagree with you on this. 

Calling yourself something is very different from having a tirade of insults hurled at you on television by a raging lunatic having an apopleptic fit in your face.  Bethy was deliberately, intentionally, loudly, and unceasingly INSULTING Luann - there is no question in my mind that the words she used were intended to insult, hurt, embarrass and shame Luann. 

[zoeysmom]

57 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Well, people do that (as I mentioned, example: Brandi Glanville) but for example the case with Rey, LuAnn objected to Sonja casting him as her "lover" which implies she was having sex with him, she tried to obfuscate.  I mean, was she in a relationship with Rey?  It doesn't seem so.  Did she fuck him several times?  Yes, it would seem so....I'm thinking a sexually free woman who makes no apologies would have no problem with people knowing Rey was a sexual fling or hookup. 

First off, Luann was trying to tell a story about what happened at John's party and Sonja got tied up in a tangent.  Luann gave us a description and it is her standard of what she calls a "lover" vs. someone she had sex with.  If she has feelings for them, they are a lover, if not they get cast into the one-night stand category-meaning it was not emotional connection.  Disagree with her terms but she was being honest.  I don't think she ever led anyone to believe she did not have sex with him, just that she was not in a romantic relationship with him.  Most of all she was trying to set up what happened at the party with Ramona, Rey and John.  She was giving Sonja her version of what transpired with Rey.  

[Neurochick]

54 minutes ago, Sherry67 said:

By the way -- I never followed the story closely enough to know what happened, and I know that Bethenny doesn't say much about it -- why did Jason and Bethenny split up?  I mean, we can assume that her personal issues played a part in driving a wedge between them, but was there one specific incident that broke them up?  Infidelity?  A fight that got physical?  Did Jason do something specific that is known?

I have wondered about that too.  Maybe Jason realized Bethenny was using him as her beard.  "See how normal I am, I have a husband!  Look, somebody married me!"  LOL

BTW, why doesn't anybody ask Bethenny who she's fucking?  She wants to keep her sex life private, but wants to broadcast other people's.  What a witch!

Edited June 3, 2016 by Neurochick

[shoegal]

Just now, izabella said:

Calling yourself something is very different from having a tirade of insults hurled at you on television by a raging lunatic having an apopleptic fit in your face.  Bethy was deliberately, intentionally, loudly, and unceasingly INSULTING Luann - there is no question in my mind that the words she used were intended to insult, hurt, embarrass and shame Luann. 

Yes, and the way some people handle that is to turn it around and embrace it, take the power away from the person trying to insult you by saying what you're saying is not an insult.  In this case, if there is nothing wrong with being sexually free, why is slut an insult?  That's my point.  

It is similar to the way that Bethenny responded to Heather calling her a 'know it all'.  She turned it around, embraced it and said 'maybe I am'.  

[biakbiak]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I have wondered about that too.  Maybe Jason realized Bethenny was using him as her beard.  "See how normal I am, I have a husband!  Look, somebody married me!"  LOL

Please lord there is an entire separate thread were you can read about it ad nauseam.

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, shoegal said:

Yes, and the way some people handle that is to turn it around and embrace it, take the power away from the person trying to insult you by saying what you're saying is not an insult.  In this case, if there is nothing wrong with being sexually free, why is slut an insult?  That's my point.  

It is similar to the way that Bethenny responded to Heather calling her a 'know it all'.  She turned it around, embraced it and said 'maybe I am'.  

So maybe people should start embracing racial epithets?  Does that take away the power of a racial epithet intended to hurt?  

[Midnight Cheese]

Calling someone a 'know it all' conveys annoyance, not a bone-deep disgust with purportedly immoral or amoral behavior.  'Slut' as applied to women does, and that sting is equal or greater when a bunch of shit-hearted women do that deliberately in a forum designed to have publicity like a (semi) popular television show.

Bethenny lives to humiliate.  Hers is not likely to be a happy life if she doesn't knock that off.  LuAnn clarified that she had had a sexual relationship with Rey when she didn't at all IMO have to to placate the ping-ponging and often unpredictably irrational Sonja.  What's a smoky-voiced broad to do?

[Knuckles]

30 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

She's just a ball of hate essentially.  It's one thing to be a truth cannon and it's another thing to be a vicious person who goes for the jugular constantly.

This. So much this. I think Andy enjoys watching a woman try to destroy another woman...there is something wrong, a sadistic undertone that Bethenny is willing to play to...because she is essentially a tightly wrapped ball of rage. That Luann has a nice beau, now fiance, who has put a ring on her finger, and is making her a happy woman...well, this is enough to drive old Beth to new heights of viciousness. Her marriage was a bust, her divorce a nightmare, and her presence anywhere is guaranteed to cause conflict and ignite insults and anger. 

Bethenny seems incapable of seeing another person has having rights or feelings. She herself has hidden her sexual life, and Andy is fine with that...as long as he can unleash her to attack other women. This is ugly. Maybe Bethenny could ask Andy how many married men he has had sex with, and start screaming at him. 

[Midnight Cheese]

2 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

So maybe people should start embracing racial epithets?  Does that take away the power of a racial epithet intended to hurt?  

Woof, I just envisioned Jules stealing Vicki and Tamra** from the OC's likely descriptors of Jews and Asian people to make some very confuzzled, I'm-down type statements....

 

** all y'all know it's true.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Midnight Cheese

[zoeysmom]

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I have wondered about that too.  Maybe Jason realized Bethenny was using him as her beard.  "See how normal I am, I have a husband!  Look, somebody married me!"  LOL

BTW, why doesn't anybody ask Bethenny who she's fucking?  She wants to keep her sex life private, but wants to broadcast other people's.  What a witch!

Apparently she is afraid to because Luann will steal her man.  Same with Ramona.  In other words they want their love lives off limits but have no compulsion whatsoever about grilling Luann about hers and adding in bullshit (from the no bullshit queen) that did not happen or they would have no firsthand knowledge of.  It is a double standard.  Luann SHALL talk about her sex life or be deemed a liar, slut, whore, plastic fuck doll while they are allowed to not discuss. 

[Yours Truly]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

But why was it necessary for Sonja to clarify, for the tv viewers, ANYTHING about that guy and whether Lu had sex with him or not?  It's none of her fucking business, and wasn't relevant to anything.  She did it to embarrass and/or humiliate Lu, that's it. 

Which is why Lu was hemming and hawing. Sonja just trapped her into a conversation about her sexual activities with that guy.  And I think this is what they are all aspiring to do this season with Lu. Trap her into these conversations and Lu knows it and is trying to have none of that so it's coming across as if she's denying stuff when in reality I think she's trying not to give them the opening they so desperately want. It's like they are itching to break the dam so that anything and everything starts spilling out.  It's so freaking obvious and my thing is I really don't understand why other than some really sick and twisted need to see that amount of destruction this is necessary. God, a little gossip sure. Even a little button pushing but these women are really gleeful when it comes to the idea of Lu being completely pummeled. Again, I've never seen her guilty of anything worthy of what they are going for this season. I really think it's a true example of mob mentality and with Beth at the helm the damage is bound to be massive and some of the others seem to be right along for the ride. It's so very offputting.

[izabella]

5 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Yes, and the way some people handle that is to turn it around and embrace it, take the power away from the person trying to insult you by saying what you're saying is not an insult.  In this case, if there is nothing wrong with being sexually free, why is slut an insult?  That's my point.  

It is similar to the way that Bethenny responded to Heather calling her a 'know it all'.  She turned it around, embraced it and said 'maybe I am'.  

Wait, so Lu should have embraced all the insults thrown at her on camera by an Adderall-fueled godzilla as road to empowerment?

How about if Bethy stops being a rude asshole who insults people by screaming "whore!" at them?  Wouldn't that be a lot more empowering for whores everywhere?

[ryebread]

33 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

She's just a ball of hate essentially.  It's one thing to be a truth cannon and it's another thing to be a vicious person who goes for the jugular constantly.

We all know Kelly lost her mind on Scary Island but the way Beth went after her there was pathetic and cruel.  Beth wants to think of herself as the best ever! The bigger person!  But she's not.  And it's too bad.  She's not ugly. She's smart and can be funny. She's got some great homes and a cool jeep.  But her nastiness cancels all of that out like Sonja's black Shapie on a handbag.  Someone upthread asked what caused the Hoppy divorce.  I'd wager it was mostly due to her big head, enormous mouth and black heart. She's just....awful.

[sasha206]

On the flip side, I do think that pedophile was entirely inappropriate to call Carole and that she owes Carole a very sincere apology.  She used that word to Carole as the slut word was used to her.  Other than that, out of nearly everyone on this show, Bethenny has shown herself to have a problem with EVERYONE except for Carole.  And she's attacked nearly EVERYONE in an obnoxious manner.  I think in LuAnn's history, she hasn't been anywhere close to the level of viciousness.  

[Knuckles]

I do have to get back to work, but a last thought...could they replace Carole soon with someone with a backbone? I realize the number of women willing to subject themselves to this hate-fueled scrum is extremely limited (witness the inclusion of Jules this season) but as a sock puppet for  old Beth, she is just empty space.

[Yours Truly]

19 minutes ago, izabella said:

Calling yourself something is very different from having a tirade of insults hurled at you on television by a raging lunatic having an apopleptic fit in your face.  Bethy was deliberately, intentionally, loudly, and unceasingly INSULTING Luann - there is no question in my mind that the words she used were intended to insult, hurt, embarrass and shame Luann. 

The intent was to insult. Plain and simple.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Neurochick]

9 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

This. So much this. I think Andy enjoys watching a woman try to destroy another woman...there is something wrong, a sadistic undertone that Bethenny is willing to play to...because she is essentially a tightly wrapped ball of rage. That Luann has a nice beau, now fiance, who has put a ring on her finger, and is making her a happy woman...well, this is enough to drive old Beth to new heights of viciousness. Her marriage was a bust, her divorce a nightmare, and her presence anywhere is guaranteed to cause conflict and ignite insults and anger. 

Bethenny seems incapable of seeing another person has having rights or feelings. She herself has hidden her sexual life, and Andy is fine with that...as long as he can unleash her to attack other women. This is ugly. Maybe Bethenny could ask Andy how many married men he has had sex with, and start screaming at him. 

I agree with that about Bethenny.  Someone should take her aside (maybe take ALL of them aside) and tell her that when she's old and grey and all the men are either dead or half dead; the people who will care about her, who will make sure she's okay, who will call when they don't see her, will be her women friends. 

I don't think Bethenny is a "girl's girl" either.  She wouldn't have screamed at Luann that way if she were. 

[TVFan17]

11 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Please lord there is an entire separate thread were you can read about it ad nauseam.

 I didn't see that thread at first, as I only come to this specific RHoNY forum once in blue moon and hadn't followed the saga.  I don't want to read about every detail.  I just wondered if there was one main, specific reason for the split, or if any telltale event had leaked out.

[biakbiak]

31 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Yes, and the way some people handle that is to turn it around and embrace it, take the power away from the person trying to insult you by saying what you're saying is not an insult.  In this case, if there is nothing wrong with being sexually free, why is slut an insult?  That's my point.  

It is similar to the way that Bethenny responded to Heather calling her a 'know it all'.  She turned it around, embraced it and said 'maybe I am'.  

Because intent has meaning. Bethanny hurling insults at Luann was mean and nothing like the situation with Heather calling her a "know it all" which she tried to have both ways that Heather was overreacting and that she does know it all. Thenn I think had a TH that clarified she wasnt a "know it all" so she didn't embrace it at all. Regardless slut/whore isn't comparable in society as insults to "know it all."

Edited June 3, 2016 by biakbiak

[shoegal]

15 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

So maybe people should start embracing racial epithets?  Does that take away the power of a racial epithet intended to hurt?  

Some people do choose to do that, so it's not a new concept. 

[notnowimbusy]

In Bethenney's TH she went hard on Dorinda that all her events ended in disaster, yet at each one, Bethenney was the person causing trouble, setting the tone.   Besides starting trouble, she always acts as if anything that she doesn't host is a waste of her time, is never done the way it should be, etc.   Of course, she does know everything.

[lunastartron]

Vis-a-vis this odd (to me) discourse about slur-appropriation: There is a big dichotomy between black culture reclaiming and incorporating the altered "n*gga" into modern vernacular and the suggestion that a black person/poc might respond to an aggressive "you're a (racial epithet)!" with "yeah, I am a (racial epithet)! So what?" Which is the analogous situation for B howling in Lu's face and baldly jaw-dropping a proposition. 

I also thought Lu was "racist" for referring to herself/her own family as "Indian"s?

Edited June 3, 2016 by lunastartron
Limning the line of political correctness, hypotheticals/analogies, and argumentation

[Yours Truly]

8 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Some people do choose to do that, so it's not a new concept. 

I think the point that has clearly been made is that it's not wrong when people decide not to. And people shouldn't be expected to.

So there ya have it.

[zoeysmom]

18 minutes ago, Sherry67 said:

 I didn't see that thread at first, as I only come to this specific RHoNY forum once in blue moon and hadn't followed the saga.  I don't want to read about every detail.  I just wondered if there was one main, specific reason for the split, or if any telltale event had leaked out.

She didn't really love Jason and it was a huge mistake to marry him and it is all Andy Cohen's fault.

[RHJunkie]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Bethenny is a miserable human being and no matter how many toys she manages to have, she will always be miserable until she gets that, yes she had a shitty childhood; but that doesn't give you the right to act like a lion in the Serengeti desert when you are around others.  Not everybody is "coming for you," in reality, most people don't give a shit about you.

This is very true.  Life isn't black and white.  The ideal is for married people to not sleep around, but in reality that doesn't happen.  Sometimes people separate and date and see other people while technically they're still married.  Sometimes people stay legally married for financial reasons.  My issue with Bethenny is that she jumped on the "slut train" with Luann, "you're a slut because you slept with a married man."  Is Bethenny so sure she hasn't slept with a married man?  It does happen, and it happens more than you think.  Is it right?  No, but it does happen and I don't think it's right to slut shame every woman that it happens to, because each situation is different. 

Exactly. I believe Bethenny and Ramona were around for the gossip mill that suggested that Luann and her Count ex had an open marriage, right? So they at least know that such a thing exists. Was it an open marriage? Was he legally separated? Was there an agreed separation? Was he two weeks away from finalizing his divorce? They have zero knowledge of the circumstances but hey, let's all assassinate her character. They want to hold it against Luann for behaving in a manner that suggests that she is of higher status. Well went they jump to attacks of that nature (with relatively little to support such huge claims), they are also exhibiting behaviour that suggests superiority of the moral kind. Two sides of the same damn coin.

[Midnight Cheese]

4 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

There's this misconception out there that if you think really highly of yourself then you must obviously feel those around you fall short. Well even if it's true. Who cares? I've never let myself feel smaller compared to ANYONE. And if that creates insecurities around others around me that's not my intent but at the same time it will probably be obvious that I'm not apologetic cause this is how I get through life and I can't worry about resentments other people unnecessarily feel about that. So, aside for some moments over the seasons I've never gotten the impression that she is deliberately mean spirited on a regular basis.

I really agree with this and think this is a yooge, yooge part of what's fueling the animus that LuAnn has received over time from Sonja (clothing lines, Harry Dubin), Ramona and Mario (over everything) and Bethenny (over everything). 

The concept that a woman 'likes herself too much' when she is not constantly being overtly cruel to others is really troubling to me.  I think a lot of us are used to being deferential and playing down our strengths - it is inculcated in so many of us as to become second nature.  But it's not good.  And seeing someone not buy into that can spark a lot of resentment and even rage in others, 'who does she think she is?' type stuff that can snowball.  This cast is now almost entirely unmarried, with several members dating casually or truly single.  The chyrons showed that LuAnn's most Countessy comments were back in 2009, 2010.  The current desire of some of her peers to slag LuAnn is IMO completely tied to her being able to find satisfaction, contentment and achievable happiness in ways that they cannot.  And it randomly reminded me of a case - I will admit it's totally facially inapposite - in Delaware, where a teen girl died due to being set on in a way she didn't totally expect in a school bathroom.  It's a really haunting case, and in the immediate aftermath, as people asked 'why' some claimed that it wasn't over a boy or some ridiculous teenaged slight, but over the deceased girl carrying herself differently than the girl who brutalized her. 

Bethenny has a terrible amount of anger inside of her.  Not enough to hit I assume, but she spirals, obviously - I do think she was shocked at how awful she was.  (I think she lies like she promotes Skinnygirl in claiming it was a rare incident.  I think it's semi-frequent and she just can't control herself.)  Nothing LuAnn did now or in the past - 'well, a polite plebe who invites a Countess pays for both surf lessons' - warranted how she was. 

[WireWrap]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

 

I don't like either of them but until the last few weeks the pedophile remark has been talked about only Lu doing it on Social Media. Does anyone have a link to an article of  Lu shouting it at a children's charity event?  I cant imagine her even saying it at an event and not having a write up. I mean I can totally imagine her saying something to Carole, I just can't imagine her shouting it to Carole at a public event would not merit a story somewhere at the time.

 

Ramona outed the origin of when/where Luann said it this past episode when she was helping Luann write a text apology to Carole for saying it. Luann said she didn't think she said it, Ramona replied that she did in fact say it and Luann admits that it is most likely that she did say it.

[sasha206]

24 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Some people do choose to do that, so it's not a new concept. 

The difference is under your arguments, the person receiving the racial epithet is giving it power by being rightfully be offended.  Under your scenario, if you DON'T embrace it, it's basically on you not the person who uses it to be vicious.

[zoeysmom]

Just now, RHJunkie said:

Exactly. I believe Bethenny and Ramona were around for the gossip mill that suggested that Luann and her Count ex had an open marriage, right? So they at least know that such a thing exists. Was it an open marriage? Was he legally separated? Was there an agreed separation? Was he two weeks away from finalizing his divorce? They have zero knowledge of the circumstances but hey, let's all assassinate her character. They want to hold it against Luann for behaving in a manner that suggests that she is of higher status. Well went they jump to attacks of that nature (with relatively little to support such huge claims), they are also exhibiting behaviour that suggests superiority of the moral kind. Two sides of the same damn coin.

I believe what the situation was is shortly after filming began Season 1, Luann confided in cast members her marriage was rocky.  When the camera lights came on she made it seem as if they were happily married.  She and Bethenny discussed this on Bethenny's show.  Luann was trying to keep hjer marriage together.  Good or bad.  Luann was quite candid (away from Bethenny) when she Kelly and Jill were at the spa discussing their marriages and Luann said, "when they don;t love you anymore they don't love you anymore." The second assertion was they had an open marriage based on the Count's affair and an article that claimed Luann was drunk and grabbed a guy's package at a wedding reception.  The article also contended that the Count pushed Luann to the ground in the parking lot of the same event.  So Ramona decided to declare the Count and Luann had an open marriage.  Ramona being the source is always suspect and usually built on gossip.  So Bethenny is using the age old Luann faking a happy marriage as the base for her diatribe about Luann being a hypocrite.  To me Bethenny did about 20 episodes of faking she loved Jason, now something she feelings she denies having.  So who is the hypocrite?  Be it Luann, Vicki or Yolanda, I don't think it is rare or even hypocritical to try and make your marriage work on camera or off.

Strike one for Luann.

[shoegal]

2 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

The difference is under your arguments, the person receiving the racial epithet is giving it power by being rightfully be offended.  Under your scenario, if you DON'T embrace it, it's basically on you not the person who uses it to be vicious.

There is a whole concept around you choose how you allow things to affect you, so I think that's a legitimate angle.  In this case, the situation was about "fucking everyone" with no apologies.  To me, if you truly think there is nothing to be embarrassed, ashamed or humiliated about, then your response would be more along the lines of 'what's wrong with fucking everyone??'. 

[RHJunkie]

4 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Lu doesn't cover well I've noticed. And then she can't recover at all to save her life. And what really kills me is that all this "proof" that Lu lies is based off of such little shit that most of us would probably try to keep under wraps when put on the spot. Quite honestly the only reason why we have so many examples of Lu's terrible ability is cause the others unnecessarily go after her so often and are always so up in her biz! It seems to me like they are always putting her on the spot for something and demanding answers and explanations. Or interrupting her telling of a story in order to get deeper details or contradict her. It's getting annoying cause more recently their bombardment of her creates her to misspeak and then that turns into another moment where she's "lied"

Example: She's talking to Sonja about Rey. She interrupts Lu in order to label Rey Lu's lover. Lu stops short and says no he's not. Now I took that to mean she was saying no he wasn't currently not that she's never slept with him. Anyway, now the conversation has turned into Sonja trying to verify that Lu did sleep with him......???? And now I'm annoyed as I'm sure Lu is and now she's stammering a bit cause Sonja's bringing up way more information than what's necessary and then downright asking if she slept with him.. I mean all that so that she could prove that her use of the word lover was accurate. At that point I don't even know if Lu remembered the initial reason she denied Sonja's claim (which again it believe it was as simple as Lu not wanting Sonja to think this was a current love interest in Lu's life) so now Lu looks like she's back pedaling because now she's explaining that she considers the term lover as in more of an intimate..yada yada yada and at that point I can tell that Lu is completely thrown off and is trying to figure out how to express why she denied it in the first place so she's coming up with an explanation on the fly which sounds lame.

If only Sonja would have just said wait he wasn't your lover? Lu probably would have just answered well his isn't now or yes he was but that's been done with for months. Instead there's always this whole detective thing that goes on so instead Sonja says but wasn't he the one that took your away to so so and so for the weekend... and Lu goes yeah? Then Sonja starts talking about sex and this and that.. I mean damn. These women don't just clarify and say I thought you guys had a thing going and hooked up a few times. Quite honestly I can see Lu copping to something as simple as that. But these women want to make these grandiose declarations about Lu's business I'm not surprised that she does deny things considering the way the present the information. I hate that. Don't get mad because I'm denying YOUR version of events or details. Doesn't mean I'm lying or denying it just means that I'm denying YOUR account of the facts.

A lot of this whole crusade against Lu is that she doesn't cop to their version of things in HER life so that's their proof that she's a liar. I totally hate it when they go after Lu or anyone in that manner. Funny thing is that when she does shrug and give in and give them what they want to hear it's still not good enough either so I really don't get what the hell is supposed to happen.

These women were introduced to a Countess that was dressed well, spoke well and had connections to the upper status crowd of Manhattan and internationally. Take away Luann's title and connections and I feel pretty positive that a lot of the small things they take issue with as Luann trying to make them look inferior would not be interpreted as often in such a case. Luann has definitely said things that would be fair for someone to interpret as acting haughty, but they have taken that image of her and apply it to basically anything that they can think of. It's like the moment Luann speaks, their brain quickly goes through all the trigger points to see if there's anything there that they can call her out on or complain about it. Sure, it also doesn't help that Luann is not good with her words and often seems very slow on the draw when it comes to verbal confrontations. She consistently makes it a point to avoid verbal confrontations - perhaps she knows that about herself and chooses to be dismissive because she knows that to do otherwise would not be a service to herself or how she comes across.

On the flip side, I would like someone to point out to Bethenny that while she points her finger accusing Luann of acting better than other people, she has been accused of acting like a know it all by people. What do you think that implies Bethenny? That is one way of someone saying that you behave in a manner in which you think you are better/smarter than others - you are playing with the same superior/inferior dynamic except in those cases Bethenny, you are the Luann.

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, shoegal said:

There is a whole concept around you choose how you allow things to affect you, so I think that's a legitimate angle.  In this case, the situation was about "fucking everyone" with no apologies.  To me, if you truly think there is nothing to be embarrassed, ashamed or humiliated about, then your response would be more along the lines of 'what's wrong with fucking everyone??'. 

I'm going to flog the dead horse, but it's because being sexually free doesn't = no discernment.  Is LuAnn fucking every man she meets?  No.  She's just sexually free with the consenting adult she chooses to be sexually free with.  "Fucking everyone" is clearly a histrionic statement with the purpose to humiliate.  It's like expecting someone who is a social drinker to NOT be insulted by someone saying "YOU DRINK ALL THE TIME."  

[ghoulina]

20 hours ago, Feline Goddess said:

I don't understand why Dorinda flipped out about the birthday cake. That whole scene didn't make any sense. She loses her shit over the dumbest stuff. 

It really made no sense to me either. Lu was using the cake to point out that this likely WAS a birthday celebration. Dorinda could have just calmly countered that, "Yes, this is a birthday cake because I recently had a birthday and my mother brought it over. But as no one has brought me presents, this is just a small gathering". She acted like Lu said something offensive about the cake itself, or her mother. Pointing out that the cake is a birthday cake is not talking shit about Dorinda's mom. 

[zoeysmom]

1 minute ago, sasha206 said:

I'm going to flog the dead horse, but it's because being sexually free doesn't = no discernment.  Is LuAnn fucking every man she meets?  No.  She's just sexually free with the consenting adult she chooses to be sexually free with.  "Fucking everyone" is clearly a histrionic statement with the purpose to humiliate.  It's like expecting someone who is a social drinker to NOT be insulted by someone saying "YOU DRINK ALL THE TIME."  

Well Ramon and Bethenny say that about Luann as well.  And Sonja.  Probably the worst blame game I have ever seen is blaming Luann for enabling Sonja to drink.  I am quite certain if Sonja wants to drink she can do it by herself or in the company of someone other than Luann. 

[Mrs peel]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 0:27 PM, izabella said:

It's Jason.  Bethy's OTT reaction to her belief that Luann was trying to steal credit for skinny girl was related to her bitter battle with Jason claiming he was part of her rise to the top and deserves credit and money....she pretty much said that she was super-sensitive about that.  But that self awareness came later and didn't stop her from unhinging her jaw and trying to breathe fire at Luann, nor did it cause her to apologize for turning into a raging lunatic.

I thought that too.  Not that it excuses her dumping on Luann, because she's an adult and should know better.

Plus it was the holidays, and she's sharing Brinn (sp?).  Isn't B Jewish?  Anyone know if Jason gets Christmas each year?  Lord, it would be nice for that child to have a normal family holiday.