S02.E08: The Fox's Lair

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Claire and Jamie seek to elicit support from his manipulative grandfather, who may have his own interests at heart, while a visiting Colum MacKenzie has other plans.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After Lovat threatened to have his men rape Claire, I was freaking out every time she went anywhere by herself. Don't go in that church, Claire! Don't go wandering into the stables looking for Jamie, Claire!

I knew Laoghaire was lying about changing and being reformed even before Claire caught her sniffing Jamie's shirt. That girl is a boiled bunny away from being full on cuckoo.

Edited May 29, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo
Past tense isn't the same as present tense

[Primetimer]

When the Frasers are forced back into the Jacobite rebellion, Jamie must ask his loathsome grandfather for help.

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[ganesh]

I liked the new opening credits. I guess we're not avoiding the battle. I do like how Jamie is more politically savvy. The whole bit with him basically being nonplussed, "go ahead, she's a witch btw." *throws whisky in fire*

As much as I like to see the scenery of Scotland, Claire's VO: "We left Paris and hoped for the best." Wow, really. After all that effort of getting in with Charlie, politicking, what Claire went through, they're just going to "hope for the best."

Ha ha ha. I loved the whole con with Jamie and Claire at the end though.

(Too bad Claire didn't have a shred of information about the pivotal upcoming battle for the soul of the highland way of life though.)

Again, though, the whole neutrality pact, and getting the son to stand up for himself, giving the grandfather an out. That doesn't happen with Claire there (likely). Even if they're going to lose, I'd like if the show could acknowledge how Claire just being there has changed things. 

[nara]

Jenny and Ian could repopulate the world after the apocalypse! Baby number 3 already?! But it was a cutie,  and I loved the scene with uncle Jamie.

I wonder if BPC forged Jamie's signature or if Jared did that...either way,  what a brilliant and dickish move. Jamie has no choice but to support BPC.

So glad they brought Fergus with them!  But was that a donkey he was riding? How will that keep up with the war horses? They'd better not take that child to war!

interesting that Rabbie MacNeil is still with Jenny. I wonder if he will be important. 

Lord Lovat is horrible! I hope he dies in the war. So did he rape Jamie's grandmother? I was afraid  that he was going to marry teenaged Laoghaire and give her a position of authority over Jamie and Claire. 

I missed the credits at the beginning, so the appearance of Colum was a surprise.  Glad to see him again!  He seems to genuinely care about  Jamie--certainly more than Jamie's grandfather. Happy he had Laoghaire beaten. Perhaps if Jamie hadn't prevented her original punishment,  a lot of things would be different. I think that, right now, Laoghaire is genuinely sorry for what she did. However,  she is still in love with Jamie,  so I think she cannot be trusted. Note that her instinct was to give Simon a peek down her dress. At heart, she's promiscuous, which I don't judge in general,  but she hasn't given up hope about Jamie. 

[Daisy]

I am so glad we're back in Scotland! Hmmm and new credits!! Kilts! Murtagh! (and Fergus!!) While I didn't mind the whole detour to Paris - this whole episode had Season one magic all over it, and i am glad. it was a great episode. The only :( that there was no Duncan. Aye, I liked that wiley old coot. 

Laogharie is nuts. Smelling Jamie's shirt, wanting his love - girlfriend, he is just not that into you. get over it. I really feel she's going to cock the ish up so to speak. I am not even going to lie - i sort of got lost. 

So BPC lied and put Jamie's name on the "Hey! guess wha! he's supporting me!" notice... why exactly can't Jamie say "um, no, no i don't?" (is this because of the whole nefarious actions in France?). but now Jamie is doubly (triple?) marked as a traitor by the Crown. so what was Grandsire Creep and Colum fighting over? to not fight (and this would blow over). or to fight with James (James is BPC's father, right?). So ultimately.. did Claire's "witch" impression help or hurt what they wanted to do? 

though Claire's got guts pretending to be a witch.. can't someone just re-trial her? or  being a White Witch is okay?

[ganesh]

It would seem information passes slow in this time, so for BPC to forge Jamie's name. It's not like Jamie can tweet out that he wasn't down. And Jamie isn't someone who is thunderously notable across the land that people wouldn't just take it at face value. So he's kind of screwed.

Grandsire is just holding out to go with the winner. It would be great if the Scots won and then he could just live his life, but he knows in a war, they would be underdogs, so he wants to be in a position to maintain his position in case they lose. The problem for him is that the Brits aren't going to care, and are going to wipe them all out. Too bad Claire has no knowledge at all of the most important battle in the history of Scotland that her husband happened to tell her about in fine detail before she went into the past to the point where that knowledge could have been put to use. 

[Jodithgrace]

The funny thing is that the forging of Jamie's signature wasn't intended as a bad thing. BPC has no reason to believe that he doesn't have Jamie's full support, and since Jamie wasn't available to sign the document himself, they just did it for him. Quite considerate, really. :)

[TV Anonymous]

I am a little bit confused with Jamie et alii's return to Scotland.

Did they not escaped from Scotland for Jamie's safety? That he would never be safe from the English as long as he was in Britain? Whatever happened or not in France, that threat had not disappeared, had it? As well, if he could avoid that threat by hiding in Lallybroch, why did he leave in the first place?

Was it not a bit reckless of Jamie to say (confirm) that his wife was a witch? She was in trial for exactly that, would he confirming it not putting even more risk to her safety?

[nara]

Was this the first confirmation we had that Jamiewas aware of Laoghaire's role in Claire being arrested and tried as a witch? I vaguely remember some discussion on that point last year in this forum.

[Andorra]

Quote

Did they not escaped from Scotland for Jamie's safety? That he would never be safe from the English as long as he was in Britain? Whatever happened or not in France, that threat had not disappeared, had it? As well, if he could avoid that threat by hiding in Lallybroch, why did he leave in the first place?

The king mentioned to Claire, that he would give Jamie a pardon and also get a pardon for him in Scotland. Frankly I think he wanted to get rid of him. So they were free to return to Lallybroch without fear.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Andorra

[TV Anonymous]

But it was King Louis (of France), was it not? Did King Louis have jurisdiction over Scotland? Otherwise, could King Louis speak on behalf of King George (of Great Britain)? That scenario seems rather unlikely considering the uneasy state between Great Britain and France - which will culminate in the Seven Years' War starting in 1754.

[iMonrey]

Dude - stop telling people your wife is a witch!

TV Anonymous - I too found it unlikely that the King of France would be able to obtain a pardon for Jamie from the King of England. I did, on the other hand, wonder why Jamie couldn't write to King George and advise him that the letter naming him as a Jacobite supporter was a forgery, given that his name had just recently come before the king.

I did kind of enjoy Laogharie's attempts to flirt with Jamie's cousin. 

The season has an overall hopeless feel to it because we already know how it ends, thanks to the way it began.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually watched this last weekend, just haven't gotten around to commenting because...well, I really don't know why.  I don't have too much to add to what other's have said, but I'll give it the old college try!  ;)

• I like the fox in the opening sequence.  It was darling!  Can we keep it?  I think it should keep the Stag that's still hanging around from Season 1 company.
• I also liked the change in the theme song.  The marching drum/military cadence was eerie.
• Geesh, showrunners, we couldn't have ONE scene of domestic bliss before it all goes to crap with the letter?  After all the shit in France last episode?  I realize there's probably a lot of action to get through, but really, you need to show me some better moments - and a better passage of time than Claire's VO -  if you want me to stay invested in this couple and this show.
• I completely agree with those wondering why Jamie couldn't write a letter denouncing Charlie's letter as a forgery.  No, there was no internet or twitter or email.  But even still, a letter in Jamie's own hand with Jamie's own signature and SEAL would have laid that problem to rest, I think.  Especially if he'd signed that neutrality agreement with Colum.
• Also agree with those who think it highly unlikely that the King of France had any sway with the King of England to waive Jamie's charges so he could go back to Scotland.  Unless Louis went through the Duke of Sandringham to get it done.  But that's not what was implied, I don't think.
• Also, Geez - shout out to everyone calling Jamie out for continuing to tell people (especially in Scotland where she was put on trial, duh!) that Claire is a witch.  And why the hell is Claire going along with that nonsense?
• Can't believe Jamie just stood there and let grandpappy threaten to have his wife raped and didn't put a knife to the old bastard's throat.  Geezuz, Jamie.  You lost points with me on that one.  Remember: WWMD?  Just kill him.
• IMO, Jamie and Claire worked out her little "vision" scene ahead of time.  They were in it together.  He didn't seem freaked out enough when she started otherwise, if he wasn't in on the plan.
• And finally Laoghaire.  Hm.  Don't quite know what to say about her.  I don't think she's really sorry for what she did re; Claire and the witch trial.  I think she's sorry she got beaten for it (if we can believe Colum about that - though I would have liked to see it with my own eyes.) so now she has to play the part of the penitent.  She's obviously still scheming to get Jamie somehow.  Even though he had no interest in her in this ep, and that was quite clear.  I can't even feel sorry for the girl.  She's just stupid.

Edited June 2, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
oh yeah, the neutrality thing...

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Was reading a recap, and it reminded me of a few other things:

• Jamie's hair was looking particularly fetching this episode.
• I snickered at Jamie admitting to Claire that his father was a bastard.  And I was actually a little surprised that Claire didn't laugh out loud either.  Like she'd care about that.  Jamie made such a big deal out of it.  And granted, in that time, and in his social strata is was.  But he doesn't understand that in Claire's time, it's not such a big thing anymore.  (Even though it was moreso in 1945 than it is now.)
• That was a nice moment with Jamie and Claire afterward, but I was a little confused and shocked by the fade to black.  What with all the sex scenes and nudity last season, the show has turned practically prudish this season.
• I just didn't get the 'feels' from watching Jamie with the baby that I think I was supposed to.  I kept wishing I could understand what he was saying.

[paramitch]

I loved the opening shot of the gorgeous fox against the green of the moors and fields behind him. As with the heron in the previous episode, this season has included some unusually beautiful wildlife moments.

Jamie's grandfather was as loathsome, disgusting, rape-obsessed, and misogynistic as most of our bad guys on this show. It just felt like bad writing to me, that he was SO over the top even Walder Frey would've been, like, "Sheesh, cool it, bro."

I did like the fact that Jamie openly declared that Claire could defend herself, but his constantly talking about her being a witch did make me nervous, especially given that she's already had one close call with the stake in that arena as well.

I liked the scene of Claire and Jenny talking together and watching him with the baby, but it also felt a bit cruel to me, and odd, that Jenny was talking about all the wonderfulness of pregnancy and a young baby to a woman who had recently lost her own baby. The moment just felt to me like a missed opportunity -- Claire is openly weeping, and Jenny doesn't seem to notice or say a word of sympathy.

It was nice seeing Colum again -- I kind of miss our S1 cast. And it was even rather funny to see Laoghaire again, still as Jamie-crazy as ever. The moment when she was openly sniffing Jamie's shirt made me laugh, because it made no real sense for her to be sniffing Jamie's wet, freshly washed, shirt (rather than the dry one would still smell like him, for instance). Also, her flirting with the laird's son was hilarious -- it's kind of a shame it didn't work out, since it's obvious he would have worshipped her, and that kind of attention might have finally gotten her to give up her obsession with Claire's HUSBAND.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 8:43 PM, nara said:

So glad they brought Fergus with them!  But was that a donkey he was riding? How will that keep up with the war horses? They'd better not take that child to war!

I was so happy to see Fergus. I said the same thing, do not take that child to war!

How long were they in France? Jenny had another child or was it 2? Was that boy that picked the potato in the beginning supposed to be Jenny's first? He was at least 11 or 12 years old. Claire was pregnant when they left Scotland and didn't carry to full term and they came home a couple of months after the still birth. So how long were they gone?

I had a hard time with the dialect this episode. I kept turning my tv louder and louder but still couldn't understand most of what was being said. Didn't Colum and Jamie's grandfather sign an agreement not to fight? Isn't that what Jamie and Claire wanted and was trying to stop the backing for in France? I don't understand why they want to fight now.

Jamie's grandfather is a piece of shit and Laoghaire is a piece of lying shit!

I'm worried the word has gotten around Claire is a witch, did they not burn white witches?

[Cdh20]

That oldest boy is Rabbie, who they took in in season 1. Jenny has 3 children now- Jamie, who was born before Jamie & Claire arrived in season 1, Maggie, who Claire helped deliver, & this new baby, Kitty, who Jamie was sitting with ( swoon). Obviously there was a time jump from the time Jamie & Claire returned from France to when the episode picked up the next sping/ summer.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Cdh20

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 7:29 PM, Cdh20 said:

That oldest boy is Rabbie, who they took in in season 1. Jenny has 3 children now- Jamie, who was born before Jamie & Claire arrived in season 1, Maggie, who Claire helped deliver, & this new baby, Kitty, who Jamie was sitting with ( swoon). Obviously there was a time jump from the time Jamie & Claire returned from France to when the episode picked up the next sping/ summer.

Thank you. I totally blanked on little Jamie. It hasn't even been that long since I've watched the first season and I still don't remember the oldest boy being there. People always say getting old sucks and you know what it does lol. :-(  

[Cdh20]

On 7/6/2019 at 9:06 AM, foxfreakinmulder said:

I was so happy to see Fergus. I said the same thing, do not take that child to war!

How long were they in France? Jenny had another child or was it 2? Was that boy that picked the potato in the beginning supposed to be Jenny's first? He was at least 11 or 12 years old. Claire was pregnant when they left Scotland and didn't carry to full term and they came home a couple of months after the still birth. So how long were they gone?

I had a hard time with the dialect this episode. I kept turning my tv louder and louder but still couldn't understand most of what was being said. Didn't Colum and Jamie's grandfather sign an agreement not to fight? Isn't that what Jamie and Claire wanted and was trying to stop the backing for in France? I don't understand why they want to fight now.

In this episode Jamie & Claire talked about how they couldn’t not fight now that Prince Charles put Jamie’s name as his supporter so Jamie would be a traitor to the crown & arrested even if he didn’t fight, so they decided the new tactic was to fight & win!

[Camera One]

This season seems like it's going around in circle.  Half the season was spent sabotaging Prince Charles, and now they are suddenly convinced they can somehow make the rebellion succeed?  

It was hard to watch because the Uncle was correct.  The British were too strong and the Jacobites could not succeed without outside support like from the French.   And Jaime and Claire had spent half the season trying to make the French et al not support Prince Charles.  Oh sure, getting your grandfather's men on your side will definitely turn the tide of battle. 

Deciding in France to help the rebellion succeed and then working towards securing finances and troops from the royal court would have at least some semblance of believability in trying to change history.

I watched Season 1 years ago, so I don't remember any of the characters or storylines, except for Jenny, who stayed in my memory.  

Knowing the outcome both historically and from the flashforward in the season premiere, it was depressing and not entertaining to watch them actively work towards the death of so many.

Not to mention it's unconvincing that Jaime could now return to Scotland like Season 1 never happened and let's have Claire pretend to have a vision in front of a crowd of people, too, since witch hunting season is on hiatus.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Camera One

[gingerella]

So. That was alot. First of all, may I say DINNA FASH, we're back in bonnie Scotland lads and lassies, and it sure feels good. There were so many wonderful scenes of the Scottish countryside, castles, daily life and such like that...THIS is why I fell in love with this Show, and I felt relieved to be back in the motherland, though I know nothing good comes of it in the end, alas! I also wanted to say this - I think the show runners fucked up by starting this season off with Claire going back to her own time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that Jamie probably sent her back for her own safety, because he figured he'd die in Culloden and then what would become of Claire? Torture, rape, imprisonment, or death - guilt by association being Lady Broch Turagh? I think it would have made this season so much better if we'd just started with Claire stepping off the boat in Le Havre, and let it end with her going back through the Stones. I don't like knowing what's coming, it sort of ruins and overshadows this entire season. Then again, perhaps that overshadowing is intentional because it mimics what it must be like for Claire, knowing what's coming yet trying to change it?

Okay, the first scene with everyone back together at Lallybroch was heartening, and I can only assume that King Louis did in fact procure a pardon for Jamie from King George because otherwise I'd assume word would have spread that Jamie Fraser was back and the red coats would have been on him like flies on shite. I liked the whole harvesting of potatoes, and Rabbie being incorporated into Jenny's family, nice nods to last season, Show. And it was a nice nod to Paris to have Claire receiving a letter from Louise. And I love Jenny and her relationship with Claire and Jamie so that was lovely too, but I kept wondering where Fergus was, and it was a bit off they didn't trot him out until they were getting ready to leave Lallybroch, but I'm glad he was with them. Him on the donkey endeared him to me even more, if that was possible, but sending a child to a war zone was very strange! then again, Fergus is very crafty from living on the streets of Paris and perhaps he plays a role for the Highlander army that only a child can play because nobody would notice him? That said, as nice as it was to be back home, every time they leave Lallybroch bad shit happens to them. It's like Lallybroch is cursed or something, they're never to just be there for years and years being happy. It's sort of sad really.

I loved the scenes of Jamie and Claire riding across the hills and dales to Lovat Castle, and I hope that my viewing pal and fellow equestrian, @Pallas, also notices in the second riding shot when they were riding to the left on top of a ridge, that Jamie's black steed was trying valiantly to buck but his rider was not having any of it! The scenes approaching the castle and within it were just wonderful, though I'm pretty certain the bedchamber that J&C were staying in looked awfully similar to the one at Castle Leoch, a Viewer noticed such things dear show runners... It was really interesting to learn more about Jamie's parentage, and that his father was a bastard, I'd have never guessed that, when we finally met him he seemed like a cultured gentleman, and I'm sure he was, but I'd never have guessed he was a bastard. But I cannot figure out how his father got Lallybroch if he was a bastard, I guess creepy grandsire Lovat must have at least given him Lallybroch, yes since it appears to be part of Fraser lands? He really was a disgusting creep, not as bad as BJR, but not so far off either, what with his threatening to have his men gang rape Claire. And while Jamie trying to scare him off with a La Dame Blanche warning was clever in one way, in another I kept wondering why they were playing up the white magic witch thing so much because, ummm, witches trial not that long ago, Claire...? Anyway, some grandfather there, Jenny was right.  It was interesting to see the interaction between Claire and the seer, you knew she was going to partner up with her in some manner. And the entire angst between Colum and Jamie, it was heartening in a way because Colum just wants to continue on with life as he knows it. He just doesn't understand that what's coming isn't going to give him that result. I felt really sorry for him because it can't have been easy for him to travel and to do so must have meant a lot to him. I was happy to see him, in a weird way, because he was part of S01 and my introduction into this Story, but he just represents failure now, even though he doesn't know it. I wonder if he will survive the aftermath of Culloden, since it appears he's holding fast to not supporting the Jacobean Uprising. I think Colum means well, so I can't hate on him. I also appreciated his reply to Claire when she spat out her anger to him re: the witch trial and his allowing her to almost be killed, though I wish he had thrown Leery out of Leoch and left her to fend for herself in some tiny village somewhere, like, forever.

Which brings me to Leery, goddamn it to hell Leery. I HATE HER. Did I mention that enough last season? If not, just so you know, I hate her so much that I refuse to spell her name correctly because she's a leery bitch so Leery it is now. I didn't buy her repentance act for a minute, and when Claire caught her out smelling Jamie's shirt, BUSTED BITCH. And of course at the end when says "and your love", I wanted to reach into the TV and slap her all the way back to Leoch and then some. She is such a shady hoor, regardless of whether or not her maidenhead is intact, she is just a psycho bunny boiling bitch. I fear we haven't seen the last of her and she will, at some point call in a repayment of getting Simon on the side of the Rebellion.

Which brings us to Simon, I have no clue yet whether his role will expand in this Story, but I like him, he is one of the few honest men we've met, and I believe that he is trustworthy, probably to a fault, which doesn't bode well for him at all, but I hope he proves himself because I feel for him, being the son of such a disgusting piece of shit as Lovat is. Actually, Leery would have been stupid not to try to make a play for him because he would have worshiped her, but she like's the bad boys methinks, even though that's not really who I think Jamie really is.

The whole BPC letter was weird, and my immediate response was "tell him to fuck off for forging your name" but to be honest, BPC doesn't know Jamie was trying to sabotage his efforts, and he genuinely believes Jamie is his loyal soldier. But damn, that was balls to do that, wasn't it? If nothing else, BPC knows how to exploit people around him rather deftly, backing them into corners which they cannot get out of. I hope BPC dies at Culloden, but, mark me James, he's such a wimp that I suspect he'll be hiding out rather than 'leading his men' as he's so fond of saying. And no, I am not going to look up what happened to him online.

The scene with Jamie talking to the new baby as if they were having a conversation, that was so painful and yet so endearing, as if we didn't have enough to endear a Viewer to James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser already... But it was so odd that Jenny didn't acknowledge the loss of their bairn in that exchange, a missed opportunity. Then again, Jenny isn't as open, emotionally, as Jamie is, probably because as a woman she's had to protect herself more?

Overall a great episode because it felt like 'Home' again, but I am dreading the rest of what's to come this season...

Edited April 14, 2021 by gingerella

[SassAndSnacks]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think the show runners fucked up by starting this season off with Claire going back to her own time.

Hear hear!!  Really set a tone of gloom and dread for the whole season.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, the first scene with everyone back together at Lallybroch was heartening

I want more of them at Lallybroch, just being happy and healing and loving and fabulously attractive in their woolen homespun.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

And while Jamie trying to scare him off with a La Dame Blanche warning was clever in one way, in another I kept wondering why they were playing up the white magic witch thing so much because, ummm, witches trial not that long ago, Claire...?

Yeah not a fan of the whole white witch sub-plot in this one.  Have we learned nothing here?

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Which brings me to Leery, goddamn it to hell Leery. I HATE HER. Did I mention that enough last season? If not, just so you know, I hate her so much that I refuse to spell her name correctly because she's a leery bitch so Leery it is now.

Ha!  I love this, so I'm tagging along with it.  I always try to be faithful to the culture and spell things correctly, but she doesn't deserve my effort.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

psycho bunny boiling bitch

PREACH!!!

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

BPC knows how to exploit people around him rather deftly, backing them into corners which they cannot get out of.

He comes across to me as incredibly entitled.  Well, of course, Jamie would want to fight for him because he believes EVERYONE wants to fight for him.  Ah, to be royal.  Even an exiled royal. 

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

The scene with Jamie talking to the new baby as if they were having a conversation, that was so painful and yet so endearing, as if we didn't have enough to endear a Viewer to James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser already... But it was so odd that Jenny didn't acknowledge the loss of their bairn in that exchange, a missed opportunity.

Yeah, this seemed a little insensitive.  She knew Claire was pregnant because she sent those spoons, right?  She did know the spoons were a baby gift?  I believe so, and if that was the case, she would surely realize that the baby was lost because they didn't return to Scotland with one, even if they didn't convey to her specifically what happened.  She could have at least thrown in a "Someday, he'll talk to your bairn like that" or some kind of soothing comment.   

[Anothermi]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

It was really interesting to learn more about Jamie's parentage, and that his father was a bastard, I'd have never guessed that, when we finally met him he seemed like a cultured gentleman, and I'm sure he was, but I'd never have guessed he was a bastard. But I cannot figure out how his father got Lallybroch if he was a bastard, I guess creepy grandsire Lovat must have at least given him Lallybroch, yes since it appears to be part of Fraser lands?

I recall Jamie saying his father was acknowledged by their grandsire, but he still was a bastard and his and Jenny's grandmother was their grandfather's kitchen maid. I went back and reviewed that little segment and Jamie also told Claire that their grandmother raised his father at Beaufort Castle—I have no idea where that is or who lived there. But that's likely where he learned how a proper gentleman behaves.

Now, Jamie and Jenny's father would have been in his 40s when he died, but Simon—the new heir of Lovet's lands and title—looks very young. Probably not yet 20 years old. And I think there was a comment-in-passing that Lady Lovat was still alive, but she hates her husband, so I wonder if Simon is also an acknowledged bastard? Or perhaps there was a short detent in her hate—long enough to conceive a child?

[Cdh20]

9 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I recall Jamie saying his father was acknowledged by their grandsire, but he still was a bastard and his and Jenny's grandmother was their grandfather's kitchen maid. I went back and reviewed that little segment and Jamie also told Claire that their grandmother raised his father at Beaufort Castle—I have no idea where that is or who lived there. But that's likely where he learned how a proper gentleman behaves.

Now, Jamie and Jenny's father would have been in his 40s when he died, but Simon—the new heir of Lovet's lands and title—looks very young. Probably not yet 20 years old. And I think there was a comment-in-passing that Lady Lovat was still alive, but she hates her husband, so I wonder if Simon is also an acknowledged bastard? Or perhaps there was a short detent in her hate—long enough to conceive a child?

I think Beaufort Castle is the one Lovat still lives in, & they mentioned something about him having had a bunch of wives. 

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

Yeah, this seemed a little insensitive.  She knew Claire was pregnant because she sent those spoons, right?  She did know the spoons were a baby gift?  I believe so, and if that was the case, she would surely realize that the baby was lost because they didn't return to Scotland with one, even if they didn't convey to her specifically what happened.  She could have at least thrown in a "Someday, he'll talk to your bairn like that" or some kind of soothing comment.   

I caught tears in both their eyes & Jenny said something about “ you know how it is” , which I took as her acknowledging Claire losing the baby but not wanting to actually say anything.

[Pallas]

I'm not sure I understand why Claire and Jamie now must side with the Jacobites in order to try to to prevent the loss to the British. It can't work. Claire knows it can't work; she knows the addition of one or two more clans can't possibly turn the tide against superior British firepower, manpower, training and resources. Why, then, not denounce the letter as a forgery and the Prince as true pretender? Why not ally with Colum and seek to persuade more clans to declare neutrality? Other respected Scots have chosen not to take up arms and Jamie has not pledged his sword to any Laird: does he feel himself honor bound as a Catholic to support the restoration? Was an attempt to quench the Rising not worth discussing, as they did with the idea of immigrating?Are there reasons beyond "plot?"

Then again, Jamie is a minor laird -- lord of all he surveys, and not much more -- his influence among the clans is not what it is with us. And he lost face by marrying an Englishwoman as well as precious time in his exile for more than a year. It's different with Charles Stuart. Jamie's name carries enough weight with Charles that he forged it, to rally more supporters. So is the plan that Jamie can, somehow, influence Charles to wage the war differently -- and/or to settle for different conditions? A negotiated compromise: not a Stuart on the united throne of England, Scotland and Ireland, but instead, on the throne of independent Scotland?  

My real problem is with a forged letter as a major plot device. Why would Charles use Jamie's name to rally the clans, rather than that of a more influential Jacobite Laird? And why risk alienating his supposed supporter by the forgery? It does force Jamie's hand, but that hand could turn either way. And if Charles imagines Jamie to be such a vital piece of the campaign, why was Jamie kept entirely out of the loop once he left France? We know that Charles is in regular, encrypted communication with other supporters aboard. 

It would have been interesting to see how Jamie took his leave of Charles, and how he and Claire left things with cousin Jasper when he returned from his business trip. (Assuming they waited.) Did they leave Jasper the profit from selling off the stolen shipment of Madeira to Madeira? How did they write that one up in the books? And how much profit was left after shuttering the shop for weeks while Jamie was jailed and Claire recovering? 

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

I kept wondering where Fergus was, and it was a bit off they didn't trot him out until they were getting ready to leave Lallybroch

Fergus popped up in the earlier kitchen scene and, good French lad that he is, recommended boiled potatoes served with salt -- "and butter!" 

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

But it was so odd that Jenny didn't acknowledge the loss of their bairn in that exchange, a missed opportunity.

She did. Jenny was talking about the open, unwary way she would speak to her baby when alone, "Or before they were born. As you know," with a nod to Claire, who swallows and nods back. 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

in the second riding shot when they were riding to the left on top of a ridge, that Jamie's black steed was trying valiantly to buck but his rider was not having any of it!

Thank you! It was fun to see. Horses know stuff. "Oh now, if you think I'm taking you to Culloden Moor, laddie, think again..."

[SassAndSnacks]

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Now, Jamie and Jenny's father would have been in his 40s when he died, but Simon—the new heir of Lovet's lands and title—looks very young. Probably not yet 20 years old. And I think there was a comment-in-passing that Lady Lovat was still alive, but she hates her husband, so I wonder if Simon is also an acknowledged bastard? Or perhaps there was a short detent in her hate—long enough to conceive a child?

I think Beaufort Castle is the one Lovat still lives in, & they mentioned something about him having had a bunch of wives. 

I think Simon is the only legitimate heir.  Lord Lovat recognizes or acknowledges the various children he has sired, if you will, but Young Simon is the only male that came from a marriage.  

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I caught tears in both their eyes & Jenny said something about “ you know how it is” , which I took as her acknowledging Claire losing the baby but not wanting to actually say anything.

 

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

She did. Jenny was talking about the open, unwary way she would speak to her baby when alone, "Or before they were born. As you know," with a nod to Claire, who swallows and nods back. 

Oh, yes!  You're right.  Nice catches.  

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Why would Charles use Jamie's name to rally the clans, rather than that of a more influential Jacobite Laird? And why risk alienating his supposed supporter by the forgery?

Jamie's real asset to Charles is that he is Lord Lovat's grandson.  He could potentially gain Lovat's support for Charles, as he tried to do with the trip to Beaufort Castle and was marginally successful.  My take is also that Charles is too egotistical and has his own head so far up his own ass that he wouldn't realize that he could potentially alienate a supposed ally with the forgery.  

[Pallas]

35 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Jamie's real asset to Charles is that he is Lord Lovat's grandson.  He could potentially gain Lovat's support for Charles, as he tried to do with the trip to Beaufort Castle and was marginally successful.

That makes perfect sense. But as the signatory of a letter seeking to recruit much more prominent Lairds?  We know Charles has some major clan support. Maybe none of them were rash enough to sign, and all of them were too big to piss off! 

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

I'm not sure I understand why Claire and Jamie now must side with the Jacobites in order to try to to prevent the loss to the British. It can't work. Claire knows it can't work; she knows the addition of one or two more clans can't possibly turn the tide against superior British firepower, manpower, training and resources. Why, then, not denounce the letter as a forgery and the Prince as true pretender? Why not ally with Colum and seek to persuade more clans to declare neutrality? Other respected Scots have chosen not to take up arms and Jamie has not pledged his sword to any Laird: does he feel himself honor bound as a Catholic to support the restoration? Was an attempt to quench the Rising not worth discussing, as they did with the idea of immigrating?Are there reasons beyond "plot?"

I hear you on this, but I think that Claire and Jamie still think they have a chance to turn history and instead of avoiding Culloden, they're trying to ensure that they win that battle. Claire actually doesn't know it won't fully work at this point because as Jamie keeps pointing out, she has changed history with several actions she's taken, so I think they both still think there might be a possible way for Highland Scotland to come out of this thing differently that what Claire knows to be history from her before life.

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

 

23 hours ago, gingerella said:

I kept wondering where Fergus was, and it was a bit off they didn't trot him out until they were getting ready to leave Lallybroch

Fergus popped up in the earlier kitchen scene and, good French lad that he is, recommended boiled potatoes served with salt -- "and butter!" 

23 hours ago, gingerella said:

But it was so odd that Jenny didn't acknowledge the loss of their bairn in that exchange, a missed opportunity.

She did. Jenny was talking about the open, unwary way she would speak to her baby when alone, "Or before they were born. As you know," with a nod to Claire, who swallows and nods back. 

Ah yes, you're right lass! Sometimes the conversation is so quiet/low that I miss bits and pieces that are important or meaningful!

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Thank you! It was fun to see. Horses know stuff. "Oh now, if you think I'm taking you to Culloden Moor, laddie, think again..."

Right! Ha! Those horses are probably like, 'Laddie, you'll be wanting to fight on foot then, right? Because I will not be taking ye to battle, not at Culloden...not ever!" *insert snort and buck here*

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Jamie's real asset to Charles is that he is Lord Lovat's grandson.  He could potentially gain Lovat's support for Charles, as he tried to do with the trip to Beaufort Castle and was marginally successful.

That makes perfect sense. But as the signatory of a letter seeking to recruit much more prominent Lairds?  We know Charles has some major clan support. Maybe none of them were rash enough to sign, and all of them were too big to piss off! 

Did Jamie ever even mention to BPC that Laird Lovat was his grandfather? I don't remember that, and if not, BPC doesn't seem like he knows much about Scottish clan lines, he comes across as rather ignorant of the details and just presents as entitled as hell. As for Jamie not being a prominent Laird, you're right, he's not prominent except on his own lands, but BPC acts like he's a kingpin of the Rebellion operation, and this has always irked me no end. When first they meet at Madam Elise's, BPC immediately starts confiding in Jamie and giving up waaaaay too much information before he's even vetted Jamie. I always felt like BPC had an immediate crush on Jamie, poor lad, he seems to get that reaction from other men a lot (BJR, BPC, the Duke, et al) and it always gets him into unwanted trouble. Anyway, it's never rung true to me that BPC would immediately confide such details in Jamie, and yet he does, and he acts like there are no other 'agents' for him in Paris, which seems absurd since he's been there for a while and presumably has contacts well beyond Cousin Jared. So why IS he obsessing about Jamie being a named supporter in that letter? You're right @Pallas, it rings hollow, but all the Lairds we've met have one characteristic in common - they come across as 'cagey', never wanting to piss off too many others, probably because this is an honor culture and there's too much possibility of war amongst themselves if things go bad, so they're always playing both sides - like Colum said he was originally (when he allowed Dougal to collect money for a Jacobite army on the downlow, and he'd revisit the issue later on depending on prevailing winds and such) and Lovat (who is also brazenly playing both sides as overtly). So perhaps BPC is antsy to get this thing moving forward, and he's tired of playing the cat and mouse game so he writes a letter and signs the names of those who have intimated to him that they support him, thus flushing out imposter supporters? OTOH I don't thing of BPC as having that much strategery in his little daft brain because most of the space in his head is taken up with thoughts of grandeur about himself, and yet...I can see him being more shrewd than a Viewer gives him credit for, so if this is a deliberate act to see who's really with him, then kudos to him and it makes sense. Otherwise it does not.

Edited April 15, 2021 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Claire spelled it to Jamie: "They say that the definition of insanity is to do the same thing repeatedly and expect different results."  Claire doesn't remember a lot about the Rising, but she did recall to Jamie that after a few early victories for the Jacobites, it ended in a rout, and why: superior British firepower, manpower and expertise. None of that has changed. (If anything, Charles should be weaker, as a result of their efforts in Paris.) Most of all, Jamie doesn't seem to prefer the Stuarts as rulers, and if he were able to stop the Rising, he would save thousands of lives on both sides, as well as clan life. 

But hell, they're in and it's on. 

48 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Right! Ha! Those horses are probably like, 'Laddie, you'll be wanting to fight on foot then, right? Because I will not be taking ye to battle, not at Culloden...not ever!" *insert snort and buck here*

Exactly. "Merry a foal, I'll canter away/Braver to live than die..."

[gingerella]

5 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Claire spelled it to Jamie: "They say that the definition of insanity is to do the same thing repeatedly and expect different results."  Claire doesn't remember a lot about the Rising, but she did recall to Jamie that after a few early victories for the Jacobites, it ended in a rout, and why: superior British firepower, manpower and expertise. None of that has changed. (If anything, Charles should be weaker, as a result of their efforts in Paris.) Most of all, Jamie doesn't seem to prefer the Stuarts as rulers, and if he were able to stop the Rising, he would save thousands of lives on both sides, as well as clan life. 

Yeah, okay, I'll give you that!

 

5 minutes ago, Pallas said:

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Right! Ha! Those horses are probably like, 'Laddie, you'll be wanting to fight on foot then, right? Because I will not be taking ye to battle, not at Culloden...not ever!" *insert snort and buck here*

Exactly. "Merry a foal, I'll canter away/Braver to live than die..."

Ha! Methinks you need to re-pen new theme lyrics!

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I don't thing of BPC as having that much strategery in his little daft brain because most of the space in his head is taken up with thoughts of grandeur about himself, and yet...I can see him being more shrewd than a Viewer gives him credit for, so if this is a deliberate act to see who's really with him, then kudos to him and it makes sense. Otherwise it does not.

The list of signatures may actually signal to the more important Laird's just how thin the support is for BPC—mostly minor Lairds. 

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

she did recall to Jamie that after a few early victories for the Jacobites, it ended in a rout, and why: superior British firepower, manpower and expertise. None of that has changed. (If anything, Charles should be weaker, as a result of their efforts in Paris.)

Yes. None of these issues were addressed. I know we have been told that Jamie is one to just charge ahead, but we saw him capable of strategizing as well. I agree that what we have been given as a reason—falls short. 

I'm also disappointed that they teased us with a changed Leery and then doubled down on her just being evil. (sigh) I feel that angle has been through the wringer so often that it's completely threadbare. 

 

[gingerella]

On 4/15/2021 at 7:11 AM, Pallas said:

I'm not sure I understand why Claire and Jamie now must side with the Jacobites in order to try to to prevent the loss to the British. It can't work. Claire knows it can't work; she knows the addition of one or two more clans can't possibly turn the tide against superior British firepower, manpower, training and resources. Why, then, not denounce the letter as a forgery and the Prince as true pretender? Why not ally with Colum and seek to persuade more clans to declare neutrality? Other respected Scots have chosen not to take up arms and Jamie has not pledged his sword to any Laird: does he feel himself honor bound as a Catholic to support the restoration? Was an attempt to quench the Rising not worth discussing, as they did with the idea of immigrating?Are there reasons beyond "plot?"

Then again, Jamie is a minor laird -- lord of all he surveys, and not much more -- his influence among the clans is not what it is with us. And he lost face by marrying an Englishwoman as well as precious time in his exile for more than a year. It's different with Charles Stuart. Jamie's name carries enough weight with Charles that he forged it, to rally more supporters. So is the plan that Jamie can, somehow, influence Charles to wage the war differently -- and/or to settle for different conditions? A negotiated compromise: not a Stuart on the united throne of England, Scotland and Ireland, but instead, on the throne of independent Scotland?  

My real problem is with a forged letter as a major plot device. Why would Charles use Jamie's name to rally the clans, rather than that of a more influential Jacobite Laird? And why risk alienating his supposed supporter by the forgery? It does force Jamie's hand, but that hand could turn either way. And if Charles imagines Jamie to be such a vital piece of the campaign, why was Jamie kept entirely out of the loop once he left France? We know that Charles is in regular, encrypted communication with other supporters aboard. 

It would have been interesting to see how Jamie took his leave of Charles, and how he and Claire left things with cousin Jasper when he returned from his business trip. (Assuming they waited.) Did they leave Jasper the profit from selling off the stolen shipment of Madeira to Madeira? How did they write that one up in the books? And how much profit was left after shuttering the shop for weeks while Jamie was jailed and Claire recovering? 

I just re-watched this episode last night, mostly because I had unanswered questions and because of what you wrote above @Pallas.  Regarding why Claire was supporting the attempt to try to win Culloden instead of thwarting it when she knows they lost, there were several times during this episode where both Jamie and Claire talk about the fact that yes it seems hopefully BUT, they have indeed changed history already in several ways and so there is still hope, not to thwart but instead to win the battle at Culloden. So I think that they feel that it IS possible and so they carry on trying in their own ways. But yes, it does beg the question that IF they'd thwarted it by signing on to the Leoch/Beaufort treaty of neutrality, what might have happened? Would the British continue roaming the Scottish countryside inflicting harm and Scottish Highlanders, or might they have just eased up and mellowed out finally? It seems like the red coats were more or less assholes, roaming around the countryside causing fear to those living there, so I guess if I put myself in that mindset, would I want to continue living like that, or would I want to stand up to these brutes once and for all? There are pros and cons to both sides, I think.

As for using Jamie's signature to legitimize his rebellion, I honestly think BPC has a man crush on Jamie. Does he know that Jamie has a price on his head, I'm not sure. Does he realize that the Laird of Broch Turagh isn't a major laird in the Highlands? I don't think Viewers know. Perhaps book readers have a clearer picture of that aspect and it's something that we didn't get to see in the TV version, but we don't know so we're left wondering WTF?! It goes back to my shade-o-meter going off when Jamie met the Prince the first time and BPC spills his guts to this man he doesn't really know yet. The whole thing smells dodgey on a second viewing as well.

Lastly, yes, it would have been very interesting to see/hear a final exchange between Jamie and BPC before Jamie and Claire left for Scotland. I mean, Jamie appears to have become his biggest confidant in Paris and more or less his minder/baby sitter - the roof hopping episode from Louise's house, which was ridiculous to me. Jamie's being the 'call guy' when BPC needs his Maison Elise bill paid up, etc. I mean, ultimately, the loss of Faith was because Jamie went to M.E. to bail out BPC's bill, if he hadn't been called there, Fergus wouldn't have been raped and that duel would not have happened. Yes we see Claire bleeding at the convent hospital, but the show made it seem like it was the carriage ride to the Boi Bologna and the stress involved was the what pushed her over the edge with the miscarriage. So you'd think that BPC would be at least more sympathetic to Jamie and Claire, but then again, he only seems to obsess over himself and what he feels entitled to so, yeah, selfish git he is.

ETA: Just to show one small example of Claire and Jamie still thinking they can change history, Claire pretends she's having a vision and used Meera's vision to try to freak out old man Lovat. I think they really do think there's still time to shift things...silly gits...

Edited April 19, 2021 by gingerella