S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[TaurusRose]

21 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

She wasn't just forced to marry him.  She was a prisoner.  She wasn't allowed out of the castle.  Her mother, father, and brother were all murdered by the Lannisters.  Quite frankly, "snotty bitch" is better than he or any other Lannister deserved.  Even though Tyrion wasn't involved, he never had the courage or the stones to send her back to the north, which was what he KNEW was the right thing to do.  

I kind of hope she and Tyrion do cross paths again so she can punish him for his part in her imprisonment.  I'd bet Dany would have a few opinions on that....

I don't recall Tyrion having a hand in Sansa's imprisonment, or the murder of her father, brother or mother.  His only crime in any of that is his name. You are overlooking the fact that Tyrion was barely tolerated by his family, only having the support of Jamie.  My point here is that Tyrion was at best the kindest of the people she encountered in King's Landing.  Now, if you want to say that she lashed out at at him because of the actions of a few Lannisters, I will agree with you.  But that still makes her a snotty bitch who was unable to hold the proper parties responsible for injuries done to her.  Now while certain Lannisters may have been behind the murders of Catelyn and Rob (frankly, I don't remember), I believe that was actually carried out by the Freys.  The murder of Ned Stark rests firmly on Joffrey's shoulders.  If she meets Tyrion again, I hope that she is as kind as she was to Theron (who was responsible for Rob's betrayal and the subsequent fall-out) when they parted.  I don't think Dany would be bothered with Sansa Stark at all.

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don't recall Tyrion having a hand in Sansa's imprisonment, or the murder of her father, brother or mother.  His only crime in any of that is his name. You are overlooking the fact that Tyrion was barely tolerated by his family, only having the support of Jamie.  My point here is that Tyrion was at best the kindest of the people she encountered in King's Landing.  Now, if you want to say that she lashed out at at him because of the actions of a few Lannisters, I will agree with you.  But that still makes her a snotty bitch who was unable to hold the proper parties responsible for injuries done to her.  Now while certain Lannisters may have been behind the murders of Catelyn and Rob (frankly, I don't remember), I believe that was actually carried out by the Freys.  The murder of Ned Stark rests firmly on Joffrey's shoulders. 

Tyrion was in charge of King's Landing for the whole of Season 2, meaning that he was, in fact, the person most responsible for Sansa's continued imprisonment at that time; were he to have gotten word of her desire to escape (e.g., her meetings with Ser Dontos in the books, or with Littlefinger in the show) he would have stopped her.  He fought against the Starks at the Green Fork (or tried to, in the show, anyway), and was a senior cabinet minister for the entirety of the period until his arrest.  He is, by any definition, an active and generally willing participant in his family's political and military ambitions.  So no, it is not merely his name.  They are on different sides in the war.  That he is nicer than the others, something she repeatedly acknowledged in both media, does not mean he is not still one of her jailers.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SeanC

[TaurusRose]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion was in charge of King's Landing for the whole of Season 2, meaning that he was, in fact, the person most responsible for Sansa's continued imprisonment at that time; were he to have gotten word of her desire to escape (e.g., her meetings with Ser Dontos in the books, or with Littlefinger in the show) he would have stopped her.  He fought against the Starks at the Green Fork (or tried to, in the show, anyway), and was a senior cabinet minister for the entirety of the period until his arrest.  He is, by any definition, an active and generally willing participant in his family's political and military ambitions.  So no, it is not merely his name.  They are on different sides in the war.

He was?  How did he manage that over Cersei?  I remember he was the King's Hand at some point, but didn't he have to answer to the King (e.g. Joffrey and by extension Cersei, if Robert was dead)?  At any rate, I don't remember what his authority was.

[SeanC]

Just now, taurusrose said:

He was?  How did he manage that over Cersei?  I remember he was the King's Hand at some point, but didn't he have to answer to the King (e.g. Joffrey and by extension Cersei, if Robert was dead)?  At any rate, I don't remember what his authority was.

Because he had Tywin's letter, control over the City Watch and Varys' information network, and was a very clever person.  He was the one running the government.  Even if he were considered to be sharing power with Cersei, he was still one of her captors, and had, in any event, no desire to let her go anyway.

[Knuckles]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

here the nobles repeatedly state that they believe most of the common people in KL (and elsewhere) will side with the High Sparrow if it comes to open warfare.

Sure, they could root for the Sparrow and much good will it do them when heavily armed men attack them...the Sparrow's own forces, led by Lancel, are carrying crossbows, and wearing simple tunics. Recall how the mercenary army of Stannis cut thru the wildlings, and they were seasoned fighters. The common people will not stand a chance in this match-up. The only way the Sparrow could improve the lives of the common people is thru political diplomacy...wringing concessions from the ruling classes, who will fight tooth and nail to resist any change. See Tyrion trying to negotiate with the slavers from Astapor and Yunkai. 

The events that spelled the end of peasantry in Europe were not uprisings like the Peasant's Revolt, or the Jacquerie in France, but terribly, three waves of the Black Death...which killed almost a third of the people, rich and poor alike. The resulting labor shortage was so acute, that finally the poor and semi-skilled could make demands...not just on wages, but on property and personal rights, as well. The nobles had no leverage...they themselves had no idea how to plow the fields or mill the grain, etc. Those nobles who resisted the demands of the poor found their small folk simply walking away from their lands...no garrison or army was available to enforce them remaining on the land and working. So the army of the undead led by the NK may have the same result...but not without plenty of the poor and the rich suffering and dying. That seems inevitable.

[Umbelina]

Well, winter is coming, and it sounds worse or at least as bad as The Black Death.

[stillshimpy]

No to mention she never did "lash out" at him. The entirety of her coldness to him was when she was told about the murders of her mother and brother. Tyrion continued to have sex with Shay throughout being married to Sansa, he wasn't winning any gold stars for being a great husband in the book or the show. However the only time in the book she acted out against him in any way was refusing to kneel down for the cloak. She wasn't polite about being forced to marry against her will. That is entirely understandable, even if she hadn't been so young that it is still perfectly reasonable to consider her a child. 

 

Truly, I am not sure what Miss Manners would say about being sold off into marriage to a member of a family you have every reason to hate (with more to come, no less), but it would likely run towards hostages not really owing their captors civility.  Yet Sansa was civil for the bulk of their interactions with one exception.  In that one instance, yes, she was rude. See: married against her will as an explanation. 

 

Also? Tyrion had choices throughout. He could have left with Shay in the series. In the books he also could have refused, but he wanted to retain the advantages , money and power associated with his family.  He actually had choices and made them.  Sansa did not and also? She was 12 in the books and fourteen in the show. Tyrion's also more than twice her age, but got sodden drunk. He was hardly a paragon of courtesy in regards to the wedding himself.

[fellini]

Rest In Peace Osha. That was a good episode. The only thing that sucked was Osha dying.  Unfortunately Ramsey Bolton probably wont get his until the end of the season or later.

[TaurusRose]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Because he had Tywin's letter, control over the City Watch and Varys' information network, and was a very clever person.  He was the one running the government.  Even if he were considered to be sharing power with Cersei, he was still one of her captors, and had, in any event, no desire to let her go anyway.

I'm waving the white flag on, Sansa/Tyrion.  All of this happened seasons ago, I've only watched them once, so I can't argue her attitude, behavior authoritatively.  All I remember is that I thought she was pretty hateful towards Tyrion during that period.  There was something presented on screen that left me with that impression.  

[Alapaki]

Quote

Well, winter is coming, and it sounds worse or at least as bad as The Black Death.

I agree.  Isn't it written somewhere that winter would drive some to claim they were going out hunting, but were actually committing suicide so as not to take up any more of the food rations away from their wives and children?

And those are Winters that people had the "luxury" of preparing for by storing up provisions.  

Even a short Winter coming on top of lands that have been ravaged by war and supplies that have been sacked would certainly result in mass deaths.

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't notice, but didn't Jon give the cloak to Edd?  So wouldn't it now be Edd's cloak she's wearing?  And wouldn't it be inappropriate for her to be wearing the Lord Commander's cloak?

I'm horrified by the theory that Jon and Sansa end up married - political or not.  That's the kind of thing that flies in thousands of pages in a book over many years, but difficult to portray on TV.  I really don't think the TV storyline is headed that way.  If anything, maybe these little hints (for the book readers looking for it) are the show baiting the waters for a reaction.  They can no longer blame the books for the incestuous storylines, and want a reaction to that type of storyline without committing anything.  But sometimes actors just have really good chemistry, and it doesn't mean it's romantic.  People loved the chemistry between the Hound and Arya, but I doubt people wanted them together romantically.

Personally, I'd prefer Sansa back with Tyrion than with her brother/cousin.  I wonder what the remaining siblings would think of a Jon/Sansa romance.  Maybe the same as me - yuck.  But if we need more incest, Jon and Dany seem more likely.  They never met as children, the Targaryen's preferred marrying close family, and Dany and Jon seem to be prophesied. 

This is my preferred pairing; although, there would be a serious ick factor if they turn out to be related.  I can't see Jon and Sansa as a couple; I prefer them brother and sister.  

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 Tyrion continued to have sex with Shay throughout being married to Sansa, he wasn't winning any gold stars for being a great husband in the book or the show. 

No he didn't . Not on the show anyway.

That being said. I fail to see how any of this pertains to the  current show.

[stillshimpy]

Yes, he did. He continued to have sex with Shay on the show also. She came to the Office of the hand, he scolded her for it... Because it wasn't safe because of his father... And then they had sex. 

 

Anyway, I liked the Jon and Sansa reunion and didn't see any romantic chemistry. Just two really pretty people acting warmly toward one another with good reason. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Sorry, I am losing a battle with my iPad over here.  Both were older, wiser, more mature and had hard won empathy and perspective, but that was all I saw.

Edited May 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't notice, but didn't Jon give the cloak to Edd?  So wouldn't it now be Edd's cloak she's wearing?  And wouldn't it be inappropriate for her to be wearing the Lord Commander's cloak?

Different cloaks. The one Jon handed over to Edd was the one he got as part of the Night's Watch. The one Sansa was wearing was the one that he wore back in season one before he took his vows. He stopped wearing the season one cloak as a sign that he had committed fully to the Night's Watch and forsworn his status in House Stark.

Now after not being seen for four seasons (2-5), the cloak that symbolized Jon's Stark lineage has shown up again and we see Sansa draped in it. With all the attention the production company pays to details like that, the decision to do that is NOT coincidental (they could have used any cloak or none at all since Jon certainly wasn't wearing on in that scene, but they chose to use that one).

At the very least its a sign that Sansa is under Jon's protection, but given the role of a man's cloak in Westerosi wedding ceremonies it could also be foreshadowing an eventual union of the two once Jon's parentage is confirmed (it also needs to be pointed out that research into the Westermarck effect has shown that without additional social pressures or norms, growing up in proximity to someone does NOT actually reduce the amount of sexual attraction to them).

[Minneapple]

It would be very weird if Jon and Sansa wound up together, even if R+L=J. And even if/when we find out that they're cousins, they probably won't find out for awhile. As of now they're siblings. So they find out they're cousins and woohoo, let's get it on? That...seems odd to me. I hope, though, that if Sansa marries again, it's someone of her own choosing. If it's Jon, so be it.

I can see the appeal of them together, but I think it's mostly because of the actors and their chemistry and how pretty they look together. Actually Sophie has chemistry with practically everyone she shares a scene with. 

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

For what it's worth, one of the S5 DVD commentary tracks mentions that the actor for Mace is trying to give off I Claudius vibes, i.e., playing the dunderhead but actually being competent underneath.  My reaction to that was "umm, sure, let's go with that."  He might be trying to portray Mace as a hidden genius, but the scripting and editing are doing a good job of concealing it.

I'm not seeing it either.  Good Lord, he arrived in Braavos yodeling that song like he was starring in a musical.  I couldn't help but take Olenna's opinion on her son to heart at that point.

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I'm waving the white flag on, Sansa/Tyrion.  All of this happened seasons ago, I've only watched them once, so I can't argue her attitude, behavior authoritatively.  All I remember is that I thought she was pretty hateful towards Tyrion during that period.  There was something presented on screen that left me with that impression.  

I've only seen season part of season three, but I think Sansa's problem with Tyrion was due to his name.  When Margaery counseled Sansa, she told her Tyrion was handsome, had the charming scar, and probably knew what to do with a woman in bed, Sansa seemed a little reassured.  But I don't think Sansa was cruel to Tyrion.  She was perfectly willing to "submit" on their wedding night.  I also remember Joffrey's humiliating Tyrion at his wedding regarding the cup, and Sansa calmly got up and handed the cup to Tyrion.  I thought it an act of kindness.  She didn't enjoy seeing him humiliated.

46 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Different cloaks. The one Jon handed over to Edd was the one he got as part of the Night's Watch. The one Sansa was wearing was the one that he wore back in season one before he took his vows. He stopped wearing the season one cloak as a sign that he had committed fully to the Night's Watch and forsworn his status in House Stark.

Now after not being seen for four seasons (2-5), the cloak that symbolized Jon's Stark lineage has shown up again and we see Sansa draped in it. With all the attention the production company pays to details like that, the decision to do that is NOT coincidental (they could have used any cloak or none at all since Jon certainly wasn't wearing on in that scene, but they chose to use that one).

At the very least its a sign that Sansa is under Jon's protection, but given the role of a man's cloak in Westerosi wedding ceremonies it could also be foreshadowing an eventual union of the two once Jon's parentage is confirmed (it also needs to be pointed out that research into the Westermarck effect has shown that without additional social pressures or norms, growing up in proximity to someone does NOT actually reduce the amount of sexual attraction to them).

I understand what you're saying about the symbolism of the cloak, but it's just as obvious (to me) that the cloak represents Jon's concern that his sister is cold, and he therefore gave his unused cloak to her.  I imagine he would have done the same for Melisandre if she actually felt the cold, and if he didn't fear she might strip and place his hand on her breast again.

[larapu2000]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I don't recall Tyrion having a hand in Sansa's imprisonment, or the murder of her father, brother or mother.  His only crime in any of that is his name. You are overlooking the fact that Tyrion was barely tolerated by his family, only having the support of Jamie.  My point here is that Tyrion was at best the kindest of the people she encountered in King's Landing.  Now, if you want to say that she lashed out at at him because of the actions of a few Lannisters, I will agree with you.  But that still makes her a snotty bitch who was unable to hold the proper parties responsible for injuries done to her.  Now while certain Lannisters may have been behind the murders of Catelyn and Rob (frankly, I don't remember), I believe that was actually carried out by the Freys.  The murder of Ned Stark rests firmly on Joffrey's shoulders.  If she meets Tyrion again, I hope that she is as kind as she was to Theron (who was responsible for Rob's betrayal and the subsequent fall-out) when they parted.  I don't think Dany would be bothered with Sansa Stark at all.

Teenage girl.  Kidnapped.  Held against her will.  Threatened with rape constantly.  Beaten.  How is this even an argument?  She was a child, she has nothing to answer for, but the adults do.  And describe to me how Sansa's imprisonment is different than Dany at the Dosh Khaleen?  Tyrion has so many apologists.

[kellog010]

After watching this episode again, I now think Dany fits the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World. 

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Well, winter is coming, and it sounds worse or at least as bad as The Black Death.

Can't you just see the Sparrow's forces in their little robes and sandals?  I don't see them thriving when winter arrives.  And I want to watch the septas trying to whip the undead into shape by beating them about the head with water dippers, reading religious material, and "shame"ing them in the streets.  Good luck with that.

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

Also? Tyrion had choices throughout. He could have left with Shay in the series. In the books he also could have refused, but he wanted to retain the advantages , money and power associated with his family.  He actually had choices and made them.  Sansa did not and also? She was 12 in the books and fourteen in the show. Tyrion's also more than twice her age, but got sodden drunk. He was hardly a paragon of courtesy in regards to the wedding himself.

Tyrion was an embarrassing drunk at their wedding, but I liked how vehemently he objected to the humiliating ceremony on Sansa's behalf.  I didn't see Cat's ignorant brother objecting the same with his little Frey bride.  Tyrion knew what Joffrey was about, and if not for Tywin's intervention, Tyrion could have been injured as a result.  And considering the lack of female rights, and Sansa's beauty, I don't think there are many men who would have avoided the bedding.

[Alayne Stone]

People are going to see in Sansa and Jon what they choose to see, especially those who have a tendency to want to ship any and everything under the sun.

The reunion was a very touching scene that even my cold, hard, book-snob heart could appreciate even if Jon's general motivations are completely off key and absurd at this point (he knows what is at stake; he saw the army of the dead). But the acting was on point and it was nice to, for once, have a nice moment in the show.

I'm not even going to touch on the comments made about Sansa being a "snotty bitch" upthread where Tyrion is concerned. She was forced to marry a man she did not want and did not owe him anything. End of story.

This was probably the best episode this season so far but as with any good I manage to find in this show, it's often tainted by strange motivations and questionable storytelling devises. I was certainly pleasantly surprised to see Daenerys save herself for once. I think we were all expecting Drogon to turn up and save her in the end but at the same time ... I don't know what the purpose of Dario and Jorah were when this plan really did not need them. It would have made for a far more powerful moment (not to mention an, I don't know, empowering feminist moment - which is clearly what their whole "Womenz on Top!" tagline from EW is going for) if the dosh Khaleen in the show had not been stripped of their power and if they had somehow been convinced to help Daenerys. But whatever. I guess we take what we can get at this point.

Last thoughts ... Brienne and Tormund ... the ship I never knew I wanted, but apparently I did.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[RedheadZombie]

2 minutes ago, Alayne Stone said:

This was probably the best episode this season so far but as with any good I manage to find in this show, it's often tainted by strange motivations and questionable storytelling devises. I was certainly pleasantly surprised to see Daenerys save herself for once. I think we were all expecting Drogon to turn up and save her in the end but at the same time ... I don't know what the purpose of Dario and Jorah were when this plan really did not need them. It would have made for a far more powerful moment (not to mention an, I don't know, empowering feminist moment) if the dosh Khaleen in the show had not been stripped of their power and if they had somehow been convinced to help Daenerys. But whatever. I guess we take what we can get at this point.

I think the purpose of Daario and Jorah finding Dany, is that she rejected their plan, made her own plan that guaranteed the safety of innocents, and carried out the plan with only minimal assistance.  So not only did she not need to rely on rescuers, she actually rejected them when they appeared.  I also wonder if Jorah is dying very soon, and they wanted him in Dany's sphere when he goes.

And I'm a little disgusted by Daario.  I was rather neutral on him previously, but for heaven's sake, if even a queen can't depend on a man to not brag about fucking her, what hope do the rest of us have.  That was just a really disgusting moment, IMO.

[Constantinople]

On 5/16/2016 at 9:34 AM, Chris24601 said:

So another log to throw on the Jon/Sansa shipper fire is that apparently the fur cloak she's wearing in the fireplace scene is Jon's Winterfell cloak. Given all the symbolism involving cloaks in Westerosi weddings and taking with EVERYTHING else loaded into that scene its a thing that makes you go "Hmmmm."

Wait a minute.

Jon also gave a cloak to Edd and before Jon gave one to Sansa.

Are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting?

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

I wouldn't especially care to live under the High Sparrow's ideal state, myself, but given the choice between that and Cersei's, I'd be quite open to considering it.

Cersei kept the bars open,so I'd vote for Cersei (I can't believe I just wrote that).

[SeanC]

31 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Wait a minute.

Jon also gave a cloak to Edd and before Jon gave one to Sansa.

Are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting?

Get on the Jedd train!

[lmsweb]

1 hour ago, larapu2000 said:

Teenage girl.  Kidnapped.  Held against her will.  Threatened with rape constantly.  Beaten.  How is this even an argument?  She was a child, she has nothing to answer for, but the adults do.  And describe to me how Sansa's imprisonment is different than Dany at the Dosh Khaleen?  Tyrion has so many apologists.

You're forgetting a few things. Tyrion had as little choice in marrying Sansa as she did in marrying him.  He was constantly looking out for her long before he was forced to marry her. He's the one who stopped that public beating Joffrey ordered for her. He's the one who sent the Hound out to get her when the city attacked them and Sansa was almost raped. He told Joffrey that she was no longer his to torment. I think Tyrion greatly admired Sansa, and he may have even felt that he may have been able to offer her some protection from the rest of his family. If that makes me a Tyrion apologist, so be it.

Edited to add: As for the "Sansa is a snotty bitch to Tyrion" - I don't recall it that way at all. I still snicker when I remember Sansa telling Tyrion they should "sheep shift" someone's bed and the look on Tyrion's face when she said it.

Edited May 18, 2016 by lmsweb

[lmsweb]

On a completely shallow note, Jon is hot with that new hair look. Since half the people want to see him with Sansa and the other half with Dany, I'll split the bet and take him for myself. Yummy.

[Nanrad]

1 hour ago, larapu2000 said:

Teenage girl.  Kidnapped.  Held against her will.  Threatened with rape constantly.  Beaten.  How is this even an argument?  She was a child, she has nothing to answer for, but the adults do.  And describe to me how Sansa's imprisonment is different than Dany at the Dosh Khaleen?  Tyrion has so many apologists.

I'm sure someone can correct and explain this to me, but is Tyrion responsible for any of that? I forget the circumstances surrounding the decision for them to marry, but Tyrion never harmed her and tried to look out for Sansa. Is he guilty via blood relation? There is a lot of argument about what he could've done, but Tyrion didn't have many prospects either so I can't paint him as a villain because how dare he not renounce/disown/running from his family (name) when, if he were a regular person, he'd be severely disadvantaged. Sansa had a right to rebel in the way she saw fit, but I'm not understanding how Tyrion is being held equally responsible as if her prospects were much better if it were someone else while the Lannisters had a hold on her. 

[screamin]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Also? Tyrion had choices throughout. He could have left with Shay in the series. In the books he also could have refused, but he wanted to retain the advantages , money and power associated with his family.  He actually had choices and made them.

In the books, Tyrion's choice to marry Sansa was even more clearly spelled out as selfish and strictly for his own benefit. Tywin and Kevan offer Sansa's hand in marriage to him as a prize for his services and the only way he's going to get a lord's lands for himself. They make no attempt to browbeat or threaten him into accepting...they mildly imply that if he refuses she will be married off to Lancel instead, and Tyrion will be married off to someone else - and he's certainly not going to have another chance at a bride as pretty and highborn and titled as Sansa. Tyrion takes the deal - under no duress whatsoever.

After that I had no patience for Tyrion's whinging over Sansa's coldness toward him, no sympathy for his self-pity. He deserved no better from Sansa.

[lmsweb]

But this is THE SHOW we're talking about. And in the show, it played out quite differently.

[lmsweb]

This is the scene where he is "offered" Sansa's hand in marriage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVfClyxJOHA

[screamin]

Okay, in the show, Tyrion married Sansa because Daddy yelled at him...and note well that Tywin actually made no threats to Tyrion if he didn't marry Sansa. He just yelled, and Tyrion agreed. Tyrion still gets Winterfell through the marriage, still tries to keep Shae on the side while keeping the money and prestige of being a Lannister, still tries spinelessly to have his cake and eat it too instead of escaping with Shae and leaving being a Lannister behind. Show Tyrion comes off better - but not THAT much better.

Also, the quote I was responding to in my last post specifically mentioned things that happened with Tyrion in the books; I was agreeing with it and adding further book information.

Edited May 18, 2016 by screamin
clarification

[nksarmi]

I don't consider Tyrion wrong for marrying Sansa, but I don't consider him righteous for not raping her. He married her in a political marriage, he wants her to eventually love him or at least want to go to bed with him (perhaps when the day comes when she wants children), and he is willing to wait. That makes him better than some in this story, but not really much worse than anyone else on the scene (save maybe the Stark boys).

I have often thought that Tyrion got sloshed at his wedding because he didn't particularly want to bed Sansa. It seems from his story that other than Tysha, he has never been with a woman whom he didn't have to pay for her time. He likely doesn't think he could please any woman for real and the thought of bedding Sansa poorly on top of her not really wanting the marriage probably would have made him impotent. The drinking covered his tracks so to speak.

I also think his rejecting of the bedding ceremony was to protect himself as much as Sansa, but since it served both purposes it turned out nicely.

Basically, I think Tyrion's kindness to Sansa could ALL have self-centered motivations, so he gets no bonus points. But I won't take points away from him for wedding her either. To me, nothing about Tyrion's dealings with Sansa make him a bad or a good guy.

I should note that I don't think her actions are wrong either.

[SoWindsor]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

It would be very weird if Jon and Sansa wound up together, even if R+L=J. And even if/when we find out that they're cousins, they probably won't find out for awhile. As of now they're siblings. So they find out they're cousins and woohoo, let's get it on? That...seems odd to me. I hope, though, that if Sansa marries again, it's someone of her own choosing. If it's Jon, so be it

I can see the appeal of them together, but I think it's mostly because of the actors and their chemistry and how pretty they look together. Actually Sophie has chemistry with practically everyone she shares a scene with. 

Agreed she has chemistry with everyone she shares a scene with.

I'm ashamed to admit I shipped her and LF for a hot minute once she came into her own after he killed Lyssa. 

I know people shipped her and the Hound too.

[Gertrude]

Tyrion is not directly responsible for Sansa's woes, but he is part of his family and willingly accepts the responsibilities and benefits of being a Lannister, so he is just as culpable in my eyes. Yes, there are some mitigating circumstances and he treats her kindly, but ... I'm not even going to repeat the reasons why Sansa doesn't owe him anything. We know a lot more about Tyrion than she does. We know that he is despised by his father and sister and his position is more precarious than it appears, but everyone else sees an entitled Lannister son who benefits from the privilege and power of his family.

I honestly think that if their families weren't at war and this match was made, they might have eventually come to an understanding. However, that is not the reality of the situation and this will never be a world in which Sansa is going to warm to Tyrion Lannister. Not even if he was a handsome knight from one of her beloved stories and he showered her with roses and lemon cakes every day. The hated name Lannister trumped all.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Gertrude

[Wulfsige]

Also - laughed at Edd's, "Sorry about the food...we're not known for it". I'm shipping Edd and Hot Pie. I'd love to see them open a small inn somewhere, they could specialize in comfort food - like shepherd's pie and mac and cheese, and they can serve beer from microbreweries and local wines, and Edd can say things like, "I apologize for our limited wine selection but if you permit me, I'd like to recommend this little chardonnay. It's young but I think you might enjoy its presumptuousness."

[Macbeth]

How can Brienne and Pod (living off the land) and Sansa - eating (I don't even want to imagine) at the Boltons be so picky??   And isn't there a food shortage with the war and all? 

[Chris24601]

29 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

How can Brienne and Pod (living off the land) and Sansa - eating (I don't even want to imagine) at the Boltons be so picky??   And isn't there a food shortage with the war and all? 

To be fair, Sansa wasn't complaining and when Edd got apologetic about the quality of the food she remarked that there were more important things present so it didn't matter. I think that was the first meal since season one she's had where there was no omnipresent danger hanging over her.

[FemmyV]

5 hours ago, taurusrose said:

He was?  How did he manage that over Cersei?  I remember he was the King's Hand at some point, but didn't he have to answer to the King (e.g. Joffrey and by extension Cersei, if Robert was dead)?  At any rate, I don't remember what his authority was.

He was proxy for King's Hand, until Tywin got there. If he tried to help Sansa leave KL for WF, without a treaty agreeable to all, it would have been a huge betrayal of his family. As it is, he sent Littlefinger to offer Cat a deal: cut Jamie loose and he'd release both Sansa and Arya. Except he didn't have Arya, and Papa Lannister had his own ideas. I can't remember Littlefinger told Tywin about the proposal or not.

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, lmsweb said:

This is the scene where he is "offered" Sansa's hand in marriage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVfClyxJOHA

King's Landing hasn't been the same since Tywin Lannister was killed.  I'm voting him best villain on the show.  In rare moments, Tywin actually made me root for Cersei.  I savored the scene when she told him the rumors about she and Jaime were true and he told her he didn't believe it.  Yes you do, she coos ..... good times.

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I don't consider Tyrion wrong for marrying Sansa, but I don't consider him righteous for not raping her. He married her in a political marriage, he wants her to eventually love him or at least want to go to bed with him (perhaps when the day comes when she wants children), and he is willing to wait. That makes him better than some in this story, but not really much worse than anyone else on the scene (save maybe the Stark boys).

I have often thought that Tyrion got sloshed at his wedding because he didn't particularly want to bed Sansa. It seems from his story that other than Tysha, he has never been with a woman whom he didn't have to pay for her time. He likely doesn't think he could please any woman for real and the thought of bedding Sansa poorly on top of her not really wanting the marriage probably would have made him impotent. The drinking covered his tracks so to speak.

I also think his rejecting of the bedding ceremony was to protect himself as much as Sansa, but since it served both purposes it turned out nicely.

Basically, I think Tyrion's kindness to Sansa could ALL have self-centered motivations, so he gets no bonus points. But I won't take points away from him for wedding her either. To me, nothing about Tyrion's dealings with Sansa make him a bad or a good guy.

I should note that I don't think her actions are wrong either.

It's sometimes hard to argue who has the moral high ground on a show in which the family most agree are the most moral - the Starks - kept a child as a political hostage.  Sure they were kind to Theon, but they were part of the reason he was so easily manipulated by his father. 

[FemmyV]

14 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

It's sometimes hard to argue who has the moral high ground on a show in which the family most agree are the most moral - the Starks - kept a child as a political hostage.  Sure they were kind to Theon, but they were part of the reason he was so easily manipulated by his father. 

Sometimes I think the Starks — well, Ned & Cat mostly — deserve a little slapping. They stayed up in the North and completely isolated themselves, ignoring all politics and diplomacy, and, as a result, were nowhere near prepared to deal with the way their life was going to change when Robert reappeared and brought them to court.

Ned maybe gets a small break, as second son there wouldn't have been as much expected of him, courtwise, but Cat never had that excuse. The both of them, being so close to Robert Baratheon, to Jon Allyn, they should have known damn well what kind of treachery surrounds court. And Cat allowed her daughters to go there with only a Septa as chaperone?

Is it any wonder Rob broke his oath to marry a Frey girl?

The Starks' doom is their inability to compromise. It is known. The next step is to see which of the survivors is able to adapt and thrive, upon understanding the necessities. Jon is on his way. I'm not sure about the others.

[RedheadZombie]

1 minute ago, FemmyV said:

Ned maybe gets a small break, as second son there wouldn't have been as much expected of him, courtwise, but Cat never had that excuse. The both of them, being so close to Robert Baratheon, to Jon Allyn, they should have known damn well what kind of treachery surrounds court. And Cat allowed her daughters to go there with only a Septa as chaperone?

This is the only part of the books I've read, so I'm not sure if this is book or show, but I remember Cat arguing fiercely that the girls not go.  I feel like Ned wanted to take Rickon but she begged him to leave her baby.  Am I making this up?

[Ambrosefolly]

30 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Sometimes I think the Starks — well, Ned & Cat mostly — deserve a little slapping. They stayed up in the North and completely isolated themselves, ignoring all politics and diplomacy, and, as a result, were nowhere near prepared to deal with the way their life was going to change when Robert reappeared and brought them to court.

Ned maybe gets a small break, as second son there wouldn't have been as much expected of him, courtwise, but Cat never had that excuse. The both of them, being so close to Robert Baratheon, to Jon Allyn, they should have known damn well what kind of treachery surrounds court. And Cat allowed her daughters to go there with only a Septa as chaperone?

Is it any wonder Rob broke his oath to marry a Frey girl?

The Starks' doom is their inability to compromise. It is known. The next step is to see which of the survivors is able to adapt and thrive, upon understanding the necessities. Jon is on his way. I'm not sure about the others.

If this is medieval times, then yeah, you are going to hole yourself in your own country. The North was a completely different culture than the southern kingdoms and a pretty big fucking job on its own. Stannis remarked that even though Robert had Ned, the Northerners were hard to bring to heel. As a blogger wrote about Ned and Robb and their personality, "cluelessness about the nature and behavior of evil, untrustworthy men to be as frustrating as it is realistic."

Maybe Jon is going to adapt and Sansa is already there, but I wonder now if Cersei will ultimately regret (though I doubt she would ever verbalize it) double crossing Ned, as he was willing to show her and her children mercy, because she is now dealing with people that won't.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Knuckles]

3 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

if Cersei will ultimately regret (though I doubt she would ever verbalize it) double crossing Ned, as he was willing to show her and her children mercy,

It is an interesting point, though generally Cersei does not seem given to introspection, especially involving her own faulty judgments. But I like that

blogger's  remark on the cluelessness of decent people to detect true evil when they meet it. For most of us there is a tendency to minimize it, or to assume there is some core decency that can be found or appealed to, with disastrous results. You see that most with Littlefinger...I think the major players see the brothel keeper as sleazy and money-grubbing, but they underestimate his true nature. They use him when he's useful and never imagine he will use and discard them when they are most vulnerable. The frustration I felt with Ned in his dealings with Littlefinger was that I would have underestimated the little shit as well.

[trif]

Regarding whether Jaime knows about Cersei and Lancel or whether he's about to finally find out, I personally hope that's not played as a big reveal and the sole thing that suddenly makes Jaime turn on Cersei. It was understandably important for Jaime to discover this in the books, because it's part of a larger pattern. Cersei in the books seems to enjoy seducing men as an exercise of power, and to have a pretty low bar for when it's worthwhile to do so. Jaime's one of many men she manipulates (although the one she finds most narcissistically gratifying).

Cersei in the show strikes me pretty differently. IMO sexpot Cersei casually betraying Jaime didn't really mesh with the writers' vision of Cersei as played by Lena either, but as the affair was too integral to the plot to excise, they shoehorned it in anyway without bothering to sell it as a long-running arrangement or typical behavior on Cersei's part. So possibly I've forgotten some crucial details, but where I'm left now is that Cersei slept with Lancel pretty much out of desperation, because she needed Robert killed. Five seasons later, if feels even more like a plot device and less like Cersei betraying Jaime on any deep level.

[Funzlerks]

TV Jaime is somehow even worse than book Jaime.  All he does is follow zombie Gregor around going "yeah, do what Cersei says or this big zombie will attack you."  He has no purpose.  I never got the Lannisters as anti-heroes because they are so dumb, but I am actually rooting for a bunch of religious zealots with whomping sticks.  

 

Dany's strange calmness while setting people on fire is creepy as hell.  I can't imagine book Varys or book Tyrion liking the idea of every Dothraki in the world landing on Westeros.  But I am sure nothing will get in the way for our little perfect future Queen.  At least for long.  She'll always have that magic that she doesn't need to practice or those dragons she doesn't have to care for or those subjects she doesn't have to do anything for or the advisors she never needs to listen to.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Funzlerks

[Umbelina]

Book Jamie was amazing, they completely sacrificed him to bulk up Lena's part.

[Gertrude]

Completely agreed and seriously one of my biggest disappointments about the show decisions. The thing is, they knew Jaime was a great character and gave him the fantastic season 3 material and then forgot about him promptly after everyone fell in love with him. Wasted potential and I am not sure how (or if) they make a believable break. He's ride or die for her at this point and a little thing like sleeping with Lancel (which he has to know about at this point - the whole city knows) hasn't made even a dent in his devotion to her. Of all the changes, this hurts the most for me.

[Oscirus]

Quote

Yes, he did. He continued to have sex with Shay on the show also. She came to the Office of the hand, he scolded her for it... Because it wasn't safe because of his father... And then they had sex. 

To be addressed in Tyrion's thread.

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Wait a minute.

Jon also gave a cloak to Edd and before Jon gave one to Sansa.

Are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting?

 

Mind blown. Jon and Edd to be on the throne at the end

 

The more that I think about it the more I think that Dany's fire plan was stupid. So she's pissing off misogynistic trained warriors. What's to stop one of them from breaking her neck or something else on her? She should've at least acted meek to allow them to relax them.

[Hecate7]

On 5/16/2016 at 6:13 PM, larapu2000 said:

She wasn't just forced to marry him.  She was a prisoner.  She wasn't allowed out of the castle.  Her mother, father, and brother were all murdered by the Lannisters.  Quite frankly, "snotty bitch" is better than he or any other Lannister deserved.  Even though Tyrion wasn't involved, he never had the courage or the stones to send her back to the north, which was what he KNEW was the right thing to do.  

I kind of hope she and Tyrion do cross paths again so she can punish him for his part in her imprisonment.  I'd bet Dany would have a few opinions on that....

Well, there was a time I wished that he had just put her on a horse and sent her North. Imagine her trekking through all those lines and lines of soldiers, all spoiling to rape any girl they saw...or off to Winterfell to be raped in its burnt ruins by Theon or Ramsey or both in sequence, or to be sitting in whichever castle got sacked next. Perhaps she could have gone to Riverrun to enjoy the Red Wedding with her family. Or sent to the Eyrie to be forcibly wed to Robin Arryn or murdered by Lyssa or both. She did narrowly miss falling to her death from the Moon Door. Or maybe he should have packed her off to Dragonstone to be burned alive by Melisandre. After all, her brother Robb was King of the North, and a traitor against Stannis Baratheon. I doubt he'd have objected at all to the sacrifice of the traitor's sister if her sacrifice could win him the throne or wake dragons out of stone.  But I think Tyrion was actually smart enough to know that precisely those fates awaited her if he did let send her away, and that, as horrible as it was for both of them, the safest place for Sansa actually was with Tyrion, who felt guilty every time he thought of or looked at her, and who, unlike anyone else outside her immediate family, considered that he owed her something. He considered taking her to Casterly Rock, far from Joffrey and Cersei, hoping out of sight would be out of mind. But fate and Littlefinger decided otherwise.

Sansa's status as prisoner is completely irrelevant to her relationship to Tyrion. He was never her jailer.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Tyrion is not directly responsible for Sansa's woes, but he is part of his family and willingly accepts the responsibilities and benefits of being a Lannister, so he is just as culpable in my eyes. Yes, there are some mitigating circumstances and he treats her kindly, but ... I'm not even going to repeat the reasons why Sansa doesn't owe him anything. We know a lot more about Tyrion than she does. We know that he is despised by his father and sister and his position is more precarious than it appears, but everyone else sees an entitled Lannister son who benefits from the privilege and power of his family.

I honestly think that if their families weren't at war and this match was made, they might have eventually come to an understanding. However, that is not the reality of the situation and this will never be a world in which Sansa is going to warm to Tyrion Lannister. Not even if he was a handsome knight from one of her beloved stories and he showered her with roses and lemon cakes every day. The hated name Lannister trumped all.

 

I don't think that would have been true if she'd married Lancel. And she should have, really. She probably chose Tyrion precisely so she would not be tempted to love a Lannister.