S11.E21: All In The Family

[Omegamom]

Color me surprised:. I think the Horrible Duo did a good job for once.

I loved the episode.  I loved Dean's standoffishness with Chod.

I loved the surprise Kevin visit, but hated that they made him into a gooey smiling Chod cheerleader.

Sam is so fanboying!

I don't know if Chod is setting pieces into place, like SueB says, or is truly convinced that if he sacrifices himself, Amara will have a change of heart.  He definitely knew they were rescuing Lucifer.  I liked the complex mix of anger and...stubbornness?  That both Casifer and Chod showed when they met again.  I want to see more.

I want Cas back, dammit!

Metatron admitting he was a douche, but they needed him, liked that.

Donatello is an okay character, but...they had Kevin handy.  Why not keep him?  And having Chod convince Donatello so easily?  Nuh-uh.  No godlike show of power, just knowing his name and "sorry about your cat"?  Hell. One of the boys could have texted that much...for an atheist, he's mighty wimpy.

[Aeryn13]

I enjoyed this. It had a lot of good moments with the first scene calling out Chuck - and I have to agree with Jensen on playing it emotional vs. angry - and the bark bench scene. The new prophet was good, too.

I liked Dean and Amara getting some scenes though it is still unclear to me what her goal is with Dean. She wants him to become one with her, sure. But why? What does she expect/want from this? It is obviously more than what she gets from the souls she consumed because in that case, she could and would have taken his soul.

I do hope this was the last convenient deus ex machina save they used. No matter how much they try to downgrade God by having him adopt the schlocky Chuck persona most of the time, he is still capable of snapping his fingers and bailing them out each time.

The reunion with Chuck and Lustiel was good. I could see some genuine emotion from Lustiel before he closed up again.

Metatron getting a 11th hour redemption story? I don`t think it was really earned. Which of course is not the failure of just this script but the build-up. However, what did bug me about the scene more is the feeling of house-cleaning. Metatron is dealt with. Check. Kevin got to go to heaven. Check. It plays so much like a show nearing its series finale and trying to deal with as many loose ends as possible.`Only we know it`s been renewed so do they plan to tie up everything with heaven and hell and just go native next Season?   

The one thing I found weird this episode was the editing in the end. We apruptly leave a tense situation with Dean and Amara, all cliffhanger-like and then nothing is done with it. Dean just appears in the ending scene and is fine. Huh? Whatever footage was cut there, shouldn`t have been.

Still, it`s an ep I found engaging. And that is high praise for this Season.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Omegamom said:

loved the surprise Kevin visit, but hated that they made him into a gooey smiling Chod cheerleader.

I'm not convinced that was actually Kevin. I mean Kevin was in the veil chillin at his Moms' right? I mean he could have made the illusion that he sending Kevin to Heaven just to get Dean to trust him. I mean he had Kevin be all "I always trusted you. And I trust God, so you can too ". Nah. I don't buy it. It's squirrelly.

Quote

Chuck: Not for me. I mean, I believe in me. But your skepticism is to be expected. I did include free will in the kit.

Okay this really bugs me. So with Donatello's, a prophet of the Lord and athiest,  Chuck is all YAY FREE WILL  but Dean's atheism/agnosticism not so much?

[sarthaz]

46 minutes ago, Omegamom said:

Color me surprised:. I think the Horrible Duo did a good job for once.

I really disliked this episode, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why.  Then I saw your post.  I didn't notice them in the credits, but now it's all so clear.  Ugh ...

[Wynne88]

I liked last week's better, but this was rewatchable, which is more than I can say for some of the duo's episodes.  I was really happy to see Kevin . . . but there wasn't any meat to his appearance, more just a cleaning up loose ends as others have mentioned.  Personally, I'm not sure that sending Kevin to heaven was really an upgrade given what we've seen of the Supernatural version.  

It will be interesting to see how God & Lucifer's reunion plays out.  And I'm with those who would have really liked to have seen a little more substance to Sam other than simple fan-boying.  How he can still be in awe after everything he and Dean have been through because God couldn't be bothered to call his angels to heel just staggers me.  Nobody should be that forgiving.  As far as Metatron and Dean are concerned, at least Dean made him walk around the building all night and apparently ignored all his texts before letting him in.  Petty, but deserved.

Quote

Uriel.  That's my guess for the whole pillar of salt thing.  

Didn't they say that was a result of smiting sickness?  I may be misremembering though.

[Kanner]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This killed me. You know if this were any other show this would be submitted for an Emmy. For this scene alone. But they won't. Jensen's voice and face when he says "wars in your name" OH NOPE. That killed me. I really felt Dean's disgust and disappointment with Chuck more than his anger. I don't know how Jensen does it. But I can FEEL what Dean feels in these kinds of moments. But all the awards please.  

Thank you for this. I replayed this moment over and over again because even though I hurt for Dean, Jensen was just so awesome. 

[catrox14]

I think I've settled on the connection between Dean and Amara is that her nothingness wants Dean's lifeforce. She's eating souls to fill her nothingness but it's not enough.

And IMO Dean is attracted to her nothingness because he MISTAKENLY thinks he IS nothingness. Or he wants his own nothingness as in he wants his pain to end.

[AwesomO4000]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay this really bugs me. So with Donatello's, a prophet of the Lord and athiest,  Chuck is all YAY FREE WILL  but Dean's atheism/agnosticism not so much?

I think it's two different things here though, because Dean isn't really an atheist/agnostic, because he does/did believe that God/Chod exists/existed. He just didn't have faith that God/Chod cared about or believed in people in return. Whereas Donatello didn't think there was a God at all... so he wasn't really hurting Chod's feelings per se in not having faith in Him.

But still yeah - free will so if Dean wants to believe that Chod is a chump, he should have that right, but I guess Chod can also be hurt/annoyed/whatever by that as well I guess.

I have some thoughts on Sam, but I'll get to those later.

[mertensia]

I enjoyed the episode and it's always nice to see Mickey Kostmyer again. 

Dean's reaction was realistic:  slow, thoughtful, methodical, blaming. 

I would have to ask who the Hell Jack the Ripper was, though. 

Guys, have we learned nothing? Stuff Donatello in a spare room. Don't let him wander around.

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This killed me. You know if this were any other show this would be submitted for an Emmy. For this scene alone. But they won't. Jensen's voice and face when he says "wars in your name" OH NOPE. That killed me. I really felt Dean's disgust and disappointment with Chuck more than his anger. I don't know how Jensen does it. But I can FEEL what Dean feels in these kinds of moments. But all the awards please.  

Catrox, right with you there! The emotions I felt watching Dean pour his heart out took me by surprise - and to tears myself. To now know that it was Jensen's choice to play the scene that way makes it feel even more real. He was speaking from his heart and for his love of humanity -- saving people, hunting things. And his hurt was evident in his tears. An Emmy performance for sure, but Jensen will unfortunately never be recognized on this "little show". :( 

[catrox14]

So I wasn't sure at first but I think Jared did his own stunt driving here. Good work, Jared! 

But I'm less convinced this is him in the below shot from the back of his head because the hair looks off. 

 

And just a bonus. I'm not sure I've ever found Sam more attractive other than when his hair was wet in the Hunter Games. This is beautiful

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure where they're going with this, but I'm not happy with Chuck/God.  He's a total liar.  He keeps telling the boys that Amara has warded herself against him, but in the very next scene we see her telling Lucifer to beg for his father to come to them?? Then he out and out denies that Lucifer helped to lock Amara up, only to have Amara talking to Lucifer once again about how he helped to lock her away.  WTH??  Either the writing was particularly atrocious on this one, or God's a big damn liar.

Jensen did a great job with his scene.  God can stick his "daddy issues" comment though.  The reality is that they can't bring God on the show and have him address all of the horrific things he's ignored throughout the centuries...that just wouldn't work.  But I'm not buying his excuses.  I always loved Chuck as a character, but Chuck as God is really making me change my opinion.  In my mind, they've ruined a perfectly nice character.  I still think they should have brought Chuck back as Chuck the Prophet, and let God work through him to help the boys.  Then God could still remain a mystery and Chuck could still be likable.  

Edited May 13, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

I've been working on a theory that maybe this is all Gabriel or even Michael. That maybe one of them is actually in Chuck's meatsuit pretending to be God. I mean who's to say the amulet is THE amulet but just something that Michael or Gabriel made to get the boys to go follow him.Gabriel could stop time. He can pretty much do anything God can do. And there is no confirmation that Gabriel is really most sincerely dead given that Cas asked him if he was real or not in Meta Fiction and  all Gabriel did was waggle his eyebrows and disappear. He might have not been dead at all but went into hiding...like Chuck in his bar. Maybe that was Gabriel's construct (like Changing Channels) vs God's. Gabriel could have fooled Metatron with  the glowing light thing. And it might explain why Chod and Lucifer were all "You've changed" and had that staredown. I guess I just never figured Lucifer would stare down his father in that way. I dunno it fits more in my head!canon that Lucifer would be as surprised to see Michael as Chuck. Michael would have more reason to lie about it Lucifer being in the battle than Chod.

Michael could certainly speak on Dean's issues with John given he wore John. We saw a vision of John earlier and the idea of in a corner jerking off seems unlikely to me. Maybe that was more like Chekhov's Michael vs the writers just removing Michael from the playing field altogether. It just really makes NO sense for Michael to not be involved.

Michael or Gabriel could sacrifice themselves to save the world. I mean it was God and the archangels that did it before, and I've always presumed Michael and Lucifer did it.

PROBLEM:  Amara sensed that  Dean had talked with Chod but if Dean BELIEVES he HAS talked to God then as far as Dean is concerned that was the truth. I'm sure I'm wrong but it kind of does make more sense to me than God being a liar but if I'm not....I'll be feeling pretty smug LOL.

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

Since Amara said she was upset about the fact that she wanted solitude and her brother wanted a fan club, why wasn't she happy in her nice isolated cage?

An interesting proposal, Catrox14!

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Binns said:

I'm looking forward to hearing more from him about this scene- maybe at JIB- it's lovely work especially knowing that it was Jensen's choice to go to this place. the words wouldn't have had nearly as much impact if spoken angrily like it was originally intended. 

Storytime!  Stop reading if con info pisses you off - long winded answer, go to bold for just the facts...

So at DCCon I bought a VIP ticket and we got to have little interactions with the cast.  This was 1-3 April.  The intel was just coming out about Chuck being on the show but how many episodes was unclear.  The first tidbit was to get Rob to confess to being in the remaining 4 episodes and that he was God -- note, he didn't say it exactly that way, but he has NO poker face. So I started the conversation by showing Rob catrox's post of the pic of the boys in the trailer live-tweeting (which pinned Rob into being in EP 22)  and then I posited a theory that if God is coming back in EP20, no way he leaves until the season finale, Rob pretty much got a "busted look". On Sunday, Jensen was our last visitor.  We sit at this little table meant for 8 and have 11 people so we're kind of squeezed in.  You draw for seat position and I got to sit on Jensen's right side.  As we got talking, I asked about Dean punching God and he said "well, that's ONE way... or, there's another approach". I immediately said "That's IT!" That's the THING in EP21!  At the previous convention, Jensen acknowledged getting emotional in a scene where it wasn't expected.  And he was kinda turned toward me as we were talking so he just kinda nodded and smiled.  I can't explain it but I swear, he's just a show FAN and sometimes just wants to TALK about it.  My response (because by this time I kinda forgot who I was sitting next to), was to delightedly pat him on the arm and say "Wow. What a GREAT choice! That's just perfect." And he said "Maybe. Maybe some won't like it. When I first read the script, I was thinking it would be an angry reaction and thought 'I know how to play this', but then I got to thinking maybe I should do it differently. I just felt that he's the Father of Fathers and that's how Dean would see him. And he would be pretty upset with Him after all that's happened."**  And then the conversation moved on to another person's question.  

**note, the conversation is fairly etched into my brain so I may have a word or two not perfectly right.

So, my take is exactly what catrox was suggesting regarding Jensen having internalized Kim Manner's advice.

Regarding the writer's opinion, Jensen stated that he actually got calls from some of the writers telling him they really liked the choice.  

As I watched that scene I noticed a few things; 1) the way Dean was sitting, kind of curled up ever so slightly, showed how on edge he was.  He was the opposite of sprawled.  2) I could see the script being written for angry and was amazed at how well it worked for 'devastated'; and 3) the John comment was a gut shot for me. 

Really, Jensen knocked it out of the park the entire episode. As did Jared with his hope-filled fanboying.  It suited them so well.  "Sam. Babbling." PERFECT line. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Since Amara said she was upset about the fact that she wanted solitude and her brother wanted a fan club, why wasn't she happy in her nice isolated cage?

I literally thought the same thing! I was like wait what? Maybe she's pissed that she was thrown out of her solitude. LOL

[catrox14]

Quote

Regarding the writer's opinion, Jensen stated that he actually got calls from some of the writers telling him they really liked the choice.  

Did he get permission or was this feedback after the fact? I kind of just love my headcanon that Jensen pissed off BL by doing something better than what they wrote,

[Jediknight]

11 hours ago, Binns said:

I'm flaking on who Marie is?

She's the one who wrote the Supernatural musical in Fan Fiction.

[catrox14]

Tippi TV is hilarious as always.

Quote

Except it’s not Chuck Shurley, it’s God! Except he’d rather we just call him Chuck. He shows his true form to Metatron, but not to us so I had to take a guess.

[DittyDotDot]

Will wonders ever cease? I am a little surprised to say, the Horrible Duo didn't make it as horrible as I expected. Now...now...calm down, I'm not saying I loved it, but just surprised I didn't hate it is all. ;)

The episode mostly felt really disjointed to me. The sudden shifts between the overly melodramatic/mopey scenes to the goofy gave me whiplash. It felt like two different episodes and, at times, two different shows. As I seem to say almost every year at this time: too much to service in one episode. 

However, there were some things enjoyed. I loved that Kevin wasn't forgotten. Wouldn't have minded they didn't shuffle him away so quickly, but I like the new prophet, so I guess I'm easy today. 

I enjoyed every bit of Chuck hanging out in the bunker in his boxers. I'm weird that way, I guess.

Oh, and for a minute there I was got excited that that's all not-so-marvy Marv wrote, but then I remembered he's basically Heaven's Crowley and Crowley never dies...

Overall, didn't like or hate it. I could maybe, perhaps, possibly see myself re-watching it. That's more than I can say about most episodes lately.

 

21 hours ago, SueB said:

I just see NOTHING but God being a master strategist.  

Um, yeah, he's God. Kinda in the job description, isn't it? ;)

 

15 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Told you that Metatron wasn't lying last week, and now he's dead. 

I don't know seems like he could be only mostly dead. This show has it's habits, ya know?

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did he get permission or was this feedback after the fact? I kind of just love my headcanon that Jensen pissed off BL by doing something better than what they wrote,

Feedback after the fact. No permission.  Dude doesn't need permission IMO.

I think you can keep your headcanon but honestly, my headcanon is that Jensen knows the story/show/character so much better than BL.  And even if they wrote it as an angry scene, the words were actually quite excellent.  It was a GREAT Dean perspective.  Just better because of the authentic way Jensen portrayed it.

Honestly though, I see Andrew Dabb putting his foot down on those two.  A LOT more than Carver ever did.  Dabb IMO really cares about the storyline and he's more protective of making the arc work. I think that's why this B-L episode had only limited crassness.  And hey, we went without a single use of the word "bitch".  I bet if we did a search, that would be a first for a B-L episode.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Feedback after the fact. No permission.  Dude doesn't need permission IMO

I only asked because he's mentioned before that he called Jeremy Carver to tell him they wanted to significantly change Dean's death scene in 9.23 and this seems like a similar big change to the tone the writers wanted. I was also being snarky about BL because I hate their writing more than I can possibly say. Sorry if you thought was infantalizing Jensen in some way. Not my intention.

[SueB]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I only asked because he's mentioned before that he called Jeremy Carver to tell him they wanted to significantly change Dean's death scene in 9.23 and this seems like a similar big change to the tone the writers wanted. I was also being snarky about BL because I hate their writing more than I can possibly say. Sorry if you thought was infantalizing Jensen in some way. Not my intention.

Not remotely! Mine was more of a "Jensen is a stealthy BadAss" kinda comment. 

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Not remotely! Mine was more of a "Jensen is a stealthy BadAss" kinda comment. 

LOL okay. That's kind of my headcanon about him too. But I also think he tries to be respectful of the writers MOST of the time. I'm really wondering with Carver leaving if the boys will take on producers credits now.

[dr pepper]

Chuck finds both Winchesters dead on the floor. A pistol lies between them. And a note.

"Dear God". You are even more disappointing than your universe. And between you and Amara, things are probably going to get even more screwed up than ever. So we're going to the only place left where we know we'll find peace and quiet. The Inbetween. Hope you get out of your funk and actually fix things for once. If you happen to free Cas, tell him Baby is his.

[catrox14]

So I was rewatching and I am so upset about Dean's plight. This is really pretty bad. He's so crushed about God :(.This is so much worse for Dean now that Amara has figured out how to get into his mind via Cas. And she's doing it against both of their wills.

I don't know why Buck Leming had Dean ADMIT to the person who is already controlling him and invading his mind that he has no control over it.  Why would he admit this weakness to his enemy :(. 

I rewatched the episode tonight and I stopped short because I hadn't seen it the first time I watched (3rd gif) but I noticed what I thought was Amara running her thumb on his lips so I decide to go gif hunting and sure enough:( But really this whole thing is too disturbing and creepy and non consensual:(

I was really disturbed about  Amara putting her hand on his cheek like Mary. I think for a moment Dean must have thought of Mary and how nice it was to feel that momentary touch and comfort. He might have even wanted to lean into the touch like he did with Mary.

But then he looks at Amara so lost and confused :(.Like the awareness that is not what he wants. :( but there is something drawing him. :(

So he looks away and tries to gather himself but she keeps touching him and then runs her thumb over his lips. NOPE STAAAAHP.

Then she forces him to look at her. He doesn't want to look at her.  But he looks like he's scared if he doesn't want she'll do :(

Then he turns away and he's fighting so hard to keep his composure so he can stand there and be bait. But at least he's able to resist in some way because MISSION.

 

But all the props to Jensen for showing this confusion and upset so clearly.

This shit is so much like Jessica Jones SPOILERS FOR JESSICA JONES

Spoiler

Kilgrave is the villain and he uses mind control. But it's so fucked. He gets so far into their minds that they either don't remember what they did or they believe they wanted to do whatever he made them do which is bad enough but the worst is when they KNOW he's controlling them and they don't want it but if they try to stop or break away it makes them feel bereft and empty and they want to kill themselves or whomever is trying to intervene on their behalf. It's seriously one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen.

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[mertensia]

You were expecting consensual? Novel hope, there.

 

I really hated the nail polish color they put on Emily. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, mertensia said:

You were expecting consensual? Novel hope, there.

I don't understand your question..or your assumption. If that is what you derived from my post, I'd like to understand why.  I've repeatedly complained about this being a creepy, rapey vibe assault on Dean's person from the get go.

My post was more about why it's getting even worse for Dean with Amara's new tactic of getting into his head. Not that this is a new dynamic.

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, Binns said:

That being said, I would have liked more time spent on Sam and his reaction to Chuck considering his faith. I'd love to see a convo between the two of them. 

 

13 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

It will be interesting to see how God & Lucifer's reunion plays out.  And I'm with those who would have really liked to have seen a little more substance to Sam other than simple fan-boying.  How he can still be in awe after everything he and Dean have been through because God couldn't be bothered to call his angels to heel just staggers me.  Nobody should be that forgiving.  As far as Metatron and Dean are concerned, at least Dean made him walk around the building all night and apparently ignored all his texts before letting him in.  Petty, but deserved.

I've enjoyed the Dean discussions, and think my thoughts on that have been covered pretty well by others. Okay, now my thoughts on Sam (as promised). Sorry for the length...

I agree with the above. The conflicting thing for me here is that the "forgiveness" is a return to season 5 through 7 Sam in some ways - which is a good thing, because I like that Sam and missed him very much in season 9 - but it is not as nuanced or entirely fitting with the plot or character development for me in this episode as it was back then. I'll explain. Season 5 - 7 Sam was also very forgiving... surprisingly so, but there was a practical aspect to it that I don't see here. When Sam was willing to put aside what the Trickster/Gabriel had done to him, it was partially because he saw the potential of Gabriel as an ally. When Sam forgave Castiel, he did so mostly because he did see Castiel as "one of us," but again they also needed Castiel and his help, so there was a strategy component to it as well.

Here though, Sam's reaction seemed less "forgiving," since there is no acknowledgement of past misdeeds, and more just fanboying in a plot related way - as in the writers could keep Sam's reaction more "light" and written in broad strokes, so they wouldn't have to explore Sam's reaction much to the situation. It wasn't like his prayer to Castiel in "Meet the New Boss" where it was understood that Sam knew Castiel had done some bad things and had gone "off the reservation," but he was wiling to forgive that, because Cas was still "one of them" deep down. Sam had also called Castiel out in the past on his motivations - such as in late season 6 when he wondered aloud whether Castiel brought him back soulless on purpose, so there was some complexity in his reactions.

I'm not getting that complexity here. This seems more plot motivated in just having Sam take a "lighter" role to contrast with Dean's more complex and thoughtful reaction to Chod. There isn't really any strategy involved in his reactions this time either, in that Sam is just gushing while Dean is still doing most of the strategic thinking. It's like in season 9, where then I thought that Sam's reactions seemed out of character in that he was so unforgiving of Dean - not at all like how he was in season 7 - for such a long time so that there could be conflict between him and Dean. Again there was no real strategic component in that his conflict with Dean was a hindrance to what they were trying to do.

And unfortunately I'm afraid that Sam's reactions here - similar to those in season 9 - are going to be used to keep him out of the main action and interaction with the other characters in the plot. In season 9, Sam did almost nothing in terms of the main plot, and there was no real complex examination of his anger with Dean, in my opinion. When plot dictated, Sam did a 180 with "I lied" - no real explanation given, thought process explained, or slow revelation / evolution to that point.

In other words, I don't expect Sam to get any real emotional interaction with Chod or even Lucifer here either. I will be pleasantly surprised if he gets any alone time at all like Dean got - but I'm not holding my breath. It's too bad, in my opinion, because Sam used to get those kinds of moments in the past, and I think Jared does them well, but lately (mostly Carver era), he doesn't get that kind of character interaction as much. And when he does - such as with Castiel in "First Born" and Marlene the deaf hunter in "Into the Mystic" and Lucifer earlier this season (which I thought was great) - I really enjoy it and wish that there were more.

But yeah, I'll feel cheated if we don't get some meaningful Sam/Chod discussion, because Sam's reactions should be more complex here. He should have just as much beef with Chod as Dean has and has shown wavering faith himself in the past - as seen in "99 Problems." So, in my opinion, there should be more than just fanboying here. Sam should be giving Chod the side eye a little bit also... in fact I would love it if he figured out that they might be being used/manipulated a little bit - maybe remember "Monster at the End..." and how he was manipulated there too, even though Chuck made it seem like all Sam's idea. Get some "loss of innocence" reaction rather than this weird wide-eyed ingenue thing - which okay for one episode - maybe - but doesn't seem appropriate in the long run. Especially if it's just used to keep Sam out of the strategic aspect of the plot and sidelines meaningful character interaction.

Edited May 13, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't expect Sam to get any real emotional interaction with Chod or even Lucifer here either. I will be pleasantly surprised if he gets any alone time at all like Dean got - but I'm not holding my breath. It's too bad, in my opinion, because Sam used to get those kinds of moments in the past, and I think Jared does them well, but lately (mostly Carver era), he doesn't get that kind of character interaction as much. And when he does - such as with Castiel in "First Born" and Marlene the deaf hunter in "Into the Mystic" and Lucifer earlier this season (which I thought was great) - I really enjoy it and wish that there were more.

I'm really irritated with the way they wrote Sam's interaction with Lucifer in this episode. It's as if they completely forgot about eps. 9 and 10 when Sam was terrified of Lucifer yet still said "No."  After being tortured for hundreds of years, why would Sam carry Lucifer on his shoulders???? Why wasn't there at least a bit of dialogue about Sam meeting his abuser again? Why would Carver (or whoever is the showrunner at this point) allow these so-called writers to use Sam as just a mannequin to move Lucifer from one point to another? In fact, how dare they minimize the suffering of abuse survivors in general? That's just vile.

</rant>

[Myrelle]

Quote

But all the props to Jensen for showing this confusion and upset so clearly

He was So. Completely. Uncomfortable. there, wasn't he?  What a tour de force from Mr. Ackles in this one. No time now, but I loved it and predominantly for that reason. I like the new prophet and that scene when he was in the backseat of the Impala was a hoot. Not at all interested in the redemption arcs for Metatron and likely Lucifer now, too. I thought Emily Swallow was better than she's ever been before in that scene with Dean... *shivers*...

Still not a fan of Chuck/God. He reminds me too much of John Winchester and this, even though he scolded Dean for possibly thinking of him in the same way.

[Mulva]

Why the hell was Sam concerned about Lucifer being tortured.  You'd think that after all the torture Lucifer inflicted on him, he'd at least gloat a little.

[mertensia]

20 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Why the hell was Sam concerned about Lucifer being tortured.  You'd think that after all the torture Lucifer inflicted on him, he'd at least gloat a little.

I think he's more concerned about Cas's body.

[catrox14]

After watching the scene with Dean, Sam and Chuck probably 10 times now, I think Sam's reaction to Chuck was the trigger for Dean to say voice what's been bothering him all along about God as  seen in "Are You There God, It's Me, Dean Winchester".

Quote

DEAN  : If he doesn't exist, fine. Bad crap happens to good people. That's how it is. There's no rhyme or reason -- just random, horrible, evil -- I get it, okay. I can roll with that. But if he is out there, what's wrong with him? Where the hell is he while all these decent people are getting torn to shreds? How does he live with himself? You know, why doesn't he help?

IMO Sam's "fanboy" was really more like a child seeing his absentee father again who'd he'd been writing to everyday and hoping to hear back(I thought it might have gone into your spam " ..ouch). Dean, the big brother couldn't stand to see his little brother practically begging God(Dad) to say he hadn't ignored them, knowing that wasn't going to be God/(Dad's) answer, hence the "SAM! Babbling." to get Sam to stop.  Then Dean goes about calling out God for letting down his little brother and the rest of humanity. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So I was rewatching and I am so upset about Dean's plight. This is really pretty bad. He's so crushed about God :(.This is so much worse for Dean now that Amara has figured out how to get into his mind via Cas. And she's doing it against both of their wills.

I don't know why Buck Leming had Dean ADMIT to the person who is already controlling him and invading his mind that he has no control over it.  Why would he admit this weakness to his enemy :(. 

I rewatched the episode tonight and I stopped short because I hadn't seen it the first time I watched (3rd gif) but I noticed what I thought was Amara running her thumb on his lips so I decide to go gif hunting and sure enough:( But really this whole thing is too disturbing and creepy and non consensual:(

I was really disturbed about  Amara putting her hand on his cheek like Mary. I think for a moment Dean must have thought of Mary and how nice it was to feel that momentary touch and comfort. He might have even wanted to lean into the touch like he did with Mary.

But then he looks at Amara so lost and confused :(.Like the awareness that is not what he wants. :( but there is something drawing him. :(

So he looks away and tries to gather himself but she keeps touching him and then runs her thumb over his lips. NOPE STAAAAHP.

Then she forces him to look at her. He doesn't want to look at her.  But he looks like he's scared if he doesn't want she'll do :(

Then he turns away and he's fighting so hard to keep his composure so he can stand there and be bait. But at least he's able to resist in some way because MISSION.

 

But all the props to Jensen for showing this confusion and upset so clearly.

This shit is so much like Jessica Jones SPOILERS FOR JESSICA JONES

  Reveal hidden contents

Kilgrave is the villain and he uses mind control. But it's so fucked. He gets so far into their minds that they either don't remember what they did or they believe they wanted to do whatever he made them do which is bad enough but the worst is when they KNOW he's controlling them and they don't want it but if they try to stop or break away it makes them feel bereft and empty and they want to kill themselves or whomever is trying to intervene on their behalf. It's seriously one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen.

This scene KILLED me -even more than Dean talking to Chuck (which was a tour de force for Jensen). You can actually see that he is fighting this feeling that he hates that he has. He knows he needs to stall, but how long can he stall without giving in?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Mulva said:

Why the hell was Sam concerned about Lucifer being tortured.  You'd think that after all the torture Lucifer inflicted on him, he'd at least gloat a little.

Because it's Cas being tortured too.  

[SueB]

That scene with Amara was creepy and frightening for both Dean and the audience.  I think he turned his head away to hide his thoughts to protect Sam's rescue.  And it was scary the way she turned his face to her.  But Dean truly frightened and in such a fragile position from both a physical and emotional perspective was difficult to watch... while at the same time, a part of me was just kinda awestruck at the acting. 

Thanks for the gifs.  They do a great job of examining the dynamic.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

That scene with Amara was creepy and frightening for both Dean and the audience.  I think he turned his head away to hide his thoughts to protect Sam's rescue.  And it was scary the way she turned his face to her.  But Dean truly frightened and in such a fragile position from both a physical and emotional perspective was difficult to watch... while at the same time, a part of me was just kinda awestruck at the acting. 

Thanks for the gifs.  They do a great job of examining the dynamic.

Sometimes I think my reactions are just me being like 'KEEP DEAN SAFE" and maybe I'm misreading things but gifs help me check if what I think I've seen is what I'm seeing. Sure some things can be taken out of context but I try to keep them in context as best I can. J

Jensen's silent face acting is so damn good that sometimes I think it's taken for granted because it's effortless. He plays things so internally that IMO it risks getting over looked so I go gifs help with seeing that.

I had the episode on in the background and was struck that the monologue with Chuck is almost MORE effective because you can HEAR in Dean's voice, the underlying anger and despondency. Take a listen without watching his face. Just remarkable. #Emmy4Jensen2016

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think they are doing the usual thing now and try to amp up the tension in the final three episodes. It`s their usual pacing problem. Amara should have been either more fleshed out or made to be more of a terrifying presence all throughout the Season. Instead in the first half of the Season and the mid-Season Finale we had the mini-arc of setting Lucifer free, complete with the requisite "OMG, it`s Lucifer, it`s so terrifying" moments.

But Lucifer isn`t supposed to be the main villain now so they are trying to course-correct here. Sam basically has no reaction to Lucifer and neither Dean nor Sam call Metatron out on killing Dean because Amara is about to nuke the entire creation (and God may let it happen) so those guys are now small fries. The rescue mission was IMO more about Cas and Sam in the rescue scene itself as preoccupied with them getting a move on because, as he said, "Dean can`t stall forever".   

That`s the problem if you waste to much storytelling  real estate earlier and have to play catch up in the final few episodes, things fall by the wayside. I can`t even blame B&L for that, it`s an issue a showrunner should tackle. Or at the very least all writers together. Reign them in when they want to waste precious screentime on their little flights of fancy earlier. 

And even in this episode, I reckon important stuff got cut because that entire third act played weirdly. Did Amara give Dean an "I`m so disappointed in you" and then left? If she no longer feels connected to him or wants to spare him, they would have suffered the loss of a monumental strategic avenue to explore. It didn`t seem that way according to their talk in the end but they needed to show what happened and how that scene concluded.

One thing that made for a really funny scene here in making the current mythology so big:  them throwing those big names around, God, God`s sister and Lucifer and all the exposition and Donatello`s increasingly panicked reactions. Up to trying to throw himself out of the car. Just because he was with two people talking all causally about the biggest supernatural names ever. Hee.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they are doing the usual thing now and try to amp up the tension in the final three episodes. It`s their usual pacing problem. Amara should have been either more fleshed out or made to be more of a terrifying presence all throughout the Season. Instead in the first half of the Season and the mid-Season Finale we had the mini-arc of setting Lucifer free, complete with the requisite "OMG, it`s Lucifer, it`s so terrifying" moments.

But Lucifer isn`t supposed to be the main villain now so they are trying to course-correct here. Sam basically has no reaction to Lucifer and neither Dean nor Sam call Metatron out on killing Dean because Amara is about to nuke the entire creation (and God may let it happen) so those guys are now small fries. The rescue mission was IMO more about Cas and Sam in the rescue scene itself as preoccupied with them getting a move on because, as he said, "Dean can`t stall forever".   

That`s the problem if you waste to much storytelling  real estate earlier and have to play catch up in the final few episodes, things fall by the wayside. I can`t even blame B&L for that, it`s an issue a showrunner should tackle. Or at the very least all writers together. Reign them in when they want to waste precious screentime on their little flights of fancy earlier. 

I agree, pacing is a big problem for them, but I think it was smart of them to keep Amara in the background after she "grew up". They can't really have Amara popping in, telling her sad tale of woe and such too often--like they did with Lucifer in S5--before she becomes a cartoon. I actually think they fleshed out Amara as a character fairly well in the first half. I understand who Amara is and understand why she's doing what she's doing; I'm just not scared of her. I get it, she's bad, but I also know they'll deal with her so I just don't care, I guess.

So, for me, it's not that they wasted a bunch of time with filler MotW stuff, but that I kinda feel like the myth stuff is the wasted filler. It's too bad the MotW episodes haven't been engaging me all that much lately either, though.

On a brighter note: I too chuckled at the scene where Dean and Sam were so calmly talking about the supernatural crazy while Donatello was searching for a way to get himself away from the crazy. Probably the best scene of the whole episode for me! Well, I also chuckled at Donatello meeting Chuck in his underwear, too. I love it when the show laughs in the face of the universe! ;)

[Myrelle]

Quote

One thing that made for a really funny scene here in making the current mythology so big:  them throwing those big names around, God, God`s sister and Lucifer and all the exposition and Donatello`s increasingly panicked reactions. Up to trying to throw himself out of the car. Just because he was with two people talking all causally about the biggest supernatural names ever. Hee.

Dean's very matter of fact statement of "Sometimes we have to keep monsters back there..." made me lose it.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Dean's very matter of fact statement of "Sometimes we have to keep monsters back there..." made me lose it.

 

I think I would have enjoyed the introduction of this new prophet far more if they hadn't just shown us Kevin. I was fine with the idea of Kevin in the veil living with Mama Tran and I didn't think he was functional prophet once he was dead anyway. So why bother? It just made me think WTF, Chuck. Just resurrect Kevin unless Kevin was all "DUDE I refuse to be your prophet again but can I just chill here with my moms?" Like did someone tell Mama Tran that her son is in heaven? Honestly that is a scene we deserved to have. What if Mama Tran calls up Sam and Dean and is like "GUYS??? I haven't heard from Kevin in like weeks. WHAT DID YOU DO?" I'd be cool with that LOL

It's always gonna rankle me.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

After watching the scene with Dean, Sam and Chuck probably 10 times now, I think Sam's reaction to Chuck was the trigger for Dean to say voice what's been bothering him all along about God as  seen in "Are You There God, It's Me, Dean Winchester".

IMO Sam's "fanboy" was really more like a child seeing his absentee father again who'd he'd been writing to everyday and hoping to hear back(I thought it might have gone into your spam " ..ouch). Dean, the big brother couldn't stand to see his little brother practically begging God(Dad) to say he hadn't ignored them, knowing that wasn't going to be God/(Dad's) answer, hence the "SAM! Babbling." to get Sam to stop.  Then Dean goes about calling out God for letting down his little brother and the rest of humanity. 

Yes, but for me, it didn't really ring true for a couple of reasons. First, Sam had already been disappointed earlier when he found out that the visions had all been Lucifer. And even then, I thought that his hopes that it was God sending him visions earlier this year were partly fueled by his desperation to find a way to fix what he had messed up as much as an actual belief that God would help them, because since when before that time, post the end of season 5 had Sam shown any faith in God's help? (It certainly wouldn't explain his behavior in season 8 for me if Sam had any real faith left back then - but then again, nothing really explains season 8 for me, so...)

From what I remember Sam had pretty much come around to Dean's way of thinking on his own as of "99 problems." One of my favorite parts of that otherwise average episode was Sam's talk with Paul, the bartender, (who I loved as a one-off character. It's interesting that I seem to enjoy the Atheists on this show) where it was obvious to me that Sam had pretty much gone all-in on the "Team Free Will" thing. His (paraphrase) "Oh, I believe (in God). I just don't think he gives a crap about us." explained why he was all-in concerning Dean even though Dean was having doubts. It was the reason why "Point of No Return" worked so well for me. If Sam still held his faith in God caring about them, that episode, and Sam's sacrifice in "Swan Song" wouldn't have been as affecting for me, because Sam would've been hoping for / expecting God's help rather than having that faith in himself and Dean and Cas and what they could do together. So, after remembering all of that, it would make sense to me that after Sam was disappointed with his visions actually being Lucifer - since that had to be a pretty big blow - he wouldn't so easily get back on the fanboy train. If anything else not to set himself up to be disappointed again. I mean how much of a masochist do they want me to think Sam is?

Second, I thought Sam and the writers were trying to get away from - or maybe it was just me hoping - the big brother/little brother dynamic all the time. Didn't Sam want to be seen as an equal partner here? So I don't like it if this is going to be a thing where Dean has to "protect" Sam from getting his little, pie-in-the-sky feelings hurt, which in my opinion he shouldn't have anyway. Maybe if Sam weren't a hunter and hadn't been disappointed like a ton of times before by Chod and his fate in life in general (which he's been told was set up by Chod), well, then, I might buy it, but at some point, doesn't Sam just have to say, "you know what, this - and you - kinda suck." He did it before in season 5, and he has even more reason now, even despite his somewhat Zen belief that he pretty much deserved what happened to him by going to hell and that it could've been worse...

Wait maybe they are trying to tell me that Sam is that big of a masochist. I have a baaaad feeling he's going to get very hurt and very let down at the end of the season.

Never mind that. My hope is that we see the end of fanboy Sam in the next episode. In my opinion, Sam is more complex than that, and the current writers shouldn't be relegating him to a one-note reaction and forgetting Sam's more complex history when it comes to his faith. Likely just my opinion, but there it is.

[shang yiet]

Sam is the one who should be more bitter, not Dean. Dean didn't even believe in God in the first place so the fact that it's Chuck, eh, it shouldn't sting him as much. But Sam who prayed and believed for so long, how can he remain a fanboy after what he went through with Lucifer? And Chuck had the gall to blame Sam for releasing Lucifer and in last week's episode for not wanting to live without demon!Dean. I don't like Chuck/Chod blaming only Sam for messing up the universe. 

I also agree it's odd that Sam had no reaction to meeting Lucifer again.

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

But Sam who prayed and believed for so long, how can he remain a fanboy after what he went through with Lucifer? And Chuck had the gall to blame Sam for releasing Lucifer and in last week's episode for not wanting to live without demon!Dean. I don't like Chuck/Chod blaming only Sam for messing up the universe. 

I know, and then Chod saying it to Sam's face? That's gotta hurt.

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Never mind that. My hope is that we see the end of fanboy Sam in the next episode. In my opinion, Sam is more complex than that, and the current writers shouldn't be relegating him to a one-note reaction and forgetting Sam's more complex history when it comes to his faith. Likely just my opinion, but there it is

I'm saying it was anything BUT a one-note reaction. I generally think Jared plays Sam a particularly way, almost rote, but here I thought he found something that kind of broke my heart. And it was lovely and maybe too understated. I thought Sam was rather small here, almost childlike- NOT CHILDISH. Not FANBOYISH.

I thought Jared's voice and face and manner were definitely NOT fanboy.(that came later with "PLANETS HUR DUR) I don't think Sam was all "Dean LOOK IT'S GOD. OMG!" I wish I could find a good gif of it but I can't and I'm not sure the gif would do it just because it's all in Jared's manner and voice.

 

Quote

Sam: So, wow, um, Chuck --  Well, I guess we don't call you that, huh?

Chuck: I prefer it.

Sam: Okay, uh, “Chuck” it is. [ Sighs ] I'm sorry. You're gonna have to, uh, give Dean and me a moment to start to process. We didn't even know you were around. I mean, we knew about Chuck, but we just didn't know about... Chuck.

I mean, I-I-I was hoping you were around. I-I-I prayed and I -- but I don't know if they got, uh, lost in the spam or if --

Dean: Sam?

Sam: Yeah?

Dean: Babbling.

Sam: Okay.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=27130

IMO what came across to me was Sam feeling almost overwhelmed that God was really there. It was more like, "Shit, this really is God...but wait, I have been praying forever but ....did you ever hear me? Did you ever care?' That's what I thought was behind the "I thought maybe it got lost in the spam"He looked so worried about the answer.

I think seeing God was actually the first time Sam felt doubt about God.

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

o I don't like it if this is going to be a thing where Dean has to "protect" Sam from getting his little, pie-in-the-sky feelings hurt, which in my opinion he shouldn't have anyway. Mayb

Dean didn't trust God. Sam wasn't a doubter ever that I can think.  Dean knows this is a big deal to Sam regardless of what Dean  himself thinks about and despite him being a dick about Sam praying earlier in the season IMO he's never tried to talk Sam out of believing. He's expressed his own doubts to Sam that God has never been there so why should they trust him when Sam was getting visions.

I should have been more clear. This was a conversation Dean has been sitting on his whole life. IMO Dean wasn't speaking FOR Sam, but more that he was speaking on behalf of the part of humanity that does believe God exists but are reluctant to voice doubts or to challenge God of which Sam is a part IMO.  I got a vibe that Sam might be looking at God a bit differently now.

[catrox14]

I think I figured out what bothers me the most about this episode.

I feel like this was kind of science bashing. 

It bugged me when Sam asked about planets being round (SAM SCIENCE YOU KNOW THIS). But NO only God can tell him that or about ears.

But this really rankles. 

Quote

Donatello: I can't be a prophet. I'm an atheist and a chemist! I-I believe in molecules, not God.

What is this shit? You can't believe in molecules. Molecules exist. You can prove their existence. So what now because the dude is having an religious crisis that science is not real anymore. JFC that offends me and I'm not even a damn scientist!  Do they know a goddamn thing about science and theology and that one can be a scientist and a theologian and maybe even a prophet of the lord and still teach chemistry?

Or that somehow scientists are all atheists? But as soon as they learn God exists that would just stop being scientists? WTF, Chuck.

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think "I believe in molecules" was just a figure of speech here so it didn`t bug me. Very few shows I can think of manage a good portrayal of a character who is both a scientist and a believer. In fact, they often use both as stereotypes to have some comic relief. As I felt was somewhat of Donatello`s role here. And for a B&L script, the comedy was downright charming and actually funny. `Was it trop-y? Hell yeah. But I take it over character humiliation and dog-fucking any day. 

[AwesomO4000]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Jared's voice and face and manner were definitely NOT fanboy.(that came later with "PLANETS HUR DUR) I don't think Sam was all "Dean LOOK IT'S GOD. OMG!"
 

The planets conversation was what I was referring to. The part of the conversation you are describing, I didn't even get to see yet - my husband came home during the beginning of the episode, so I missed that part - so I need a rewatch. I'm still not believing that this is the first time Sam has doubted God though - there are way too many times he likely did, and his statement to Paul in season 5 pretty much confirmed that he had doubts before. I can believe that he had cause to hope in the moment that you are describing though... however that would make Chod's Lucifer rebuke potentially even more painful.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I should have been more clear. This was a conversation Dean has been sitting on his whole life. IMO Dean wasn't speaking FOR Sam, but more that he was speaking on behalf of the part of humanity that does believe God exists but are reluctant to voice doubts or to challenge God of which Sam is a part IMO.  I got a vibe that Sam might be looking at God a bit differently now.

Actually it was me who should've been more clear I realize. My "in my opinion, he shouldn't have anyway" was referring to Sam, not Dean. I didn't mean to imply that Dean shouldn't be speaking for Sam. I was meaning that Sam shouldn't have that pie-in-the-sky attitude over Chod anymore anyway, because Sam, as much as anyone, should know better after being disappointed so many times and pretty much - at least as far as Sam knows according to the angels, including Gabriel - being fated to be Lucifer's vessel as part of "God's plan." That's the kind of sad part. What in all of Sam's life should back up any faith he might have in Chod? And especially if Chod is playing the Winchesters now.

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What is this shit? You can't believe in molecules. Molecules exist. You can prove their existence. So what now because the dude is having an religious crisis that science is not real anymore.

I didn't get the impression that Donatello meant that he would stop believing in science. I thought that it was the old argument - actually the one that Dean had given earlier - that Donatello believed in molecules, because they could be proven to exist, so he believes in Chemistry. God couldn't be proven, and that didn't go with his analytical stance, so he was an Atheist. I didn't think he implied that he no longer believed in molecules - he did use the present tense when referring to them.

As for the trope of science and theology not mixing, I think it's some to do with the nature of science and scientists, especially the hard sciences. Often scientists are a lot about the scientific method. Experiments and what can be proven and replicated. Faith and science can mix, but - in my opinion - it's not always easy for a scientific mind to accept what can't be proven or at least have a good theory behind it. So I can see where the trope comes from. As a scientist, myself, I am not offended. (And yes, I'm pretty much an Agnostic leaning towards Atheist, and yes, this came to be more the case as I turned toward the scientific field. So I guess I fit the trope.)