S04.E08: The Magic of David Copperfield V: The Statue of Liberty Disappears

[scartact]

3 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

She's not really treating Paige like a spy. If she is she's doing a terrible job. She's hurt and lashing out. Elizabeth always hated the church and hated that Paige felt closer to Pastor Tim than to her and now she sees a way she can punish Paige for not being someone she can control and she's taking it. If she were treating Paige like a spy she'd be doing a much better job. She's never had a spy so sullen and angry and liable to tell someone or fight back. She's saying she's treating Paige like a spy but really treating her like a naughty child who broke the rules, while lying to Paige and herself that she's treating Paige like any other spy. And it's going to end badly because Elizabeth isn't being disciplined. She feels like Paige owes her for not killing Pastor Tim, like Paige is a spolied child refusing to clear her room about the whole situation. She's letting her hurt and anger influence how she handles Paige. Which is stupid from an actual spy perspective. 

I do agree that she's ultimately not treating Paige like a spy, but the way she presents a very specific plan of action so that Paige can maintain a relationship with Pastor Tim and Alice is very much utilizing spycraft so that they ensure those two don't break and go to the FBI. Of course Elizabeth would probably do a much better job if she treated Paige strictly as a spy, but Paige is her daughter, so I get a sense there's no way for her to fully separate who Paige is with the full spy treatment. Elizabeth also doesn't actually say she's treating Paige like a spy either, does she? It may be stupid from a spy perspective (not sure if I agree here either, but then again I'm no spy), but Elizabeth is reacting to Paige as a mother telling her child to take responsibility for her actions. This kind of goes back to that one episode where Elizabeth gives Paige all that kitchen work because, as Elizabeth says, sometimes being an adult is doing things you really don't want to do but you have to do.

I don't think Elizabeth thinks Paige owes her for not killing Pastor Tim either. I do believe she and Philip have tried very hard to be cooperative and kind to Paige's attitude and mood about the entire thing, and gently encouraging her to maintain Pastor Tim's trust. But, after the last few days Elizabeth's had, she lashes out at Paige and says things that very much also apply to Philip but she hasn't been able to say to him.

Edited May 6, 2016 by scartact

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

As for Stan, if he is too stupid to figure out that his kid is drinking his beer, I find it hard to believe that he has any clue who the Jenning's really are.  All Stan wanted was the beer, nothing else to see there.

I thought it was hysterical that he left with the whole six-pack - going from asking for a beer because he's low, to taking all of Philip's to stock his shelves.

I liked the way they did the time jump. At first glance, everything's hunky dory for everyone, and then gradually the cracks start showing. I also thought Henry's thoughtful look at the end, when they took Paige inside for her report, was very interesting.

I love the complexity and emotional layers of this show. It's so well written and acted.

[gwhh]

When the woman KGB agent in DC was talking about her brother being in a "Guard" military unit.  A Guard unit was an elite unit but non-special forces unit inside the Soviet Union military.  That had the best equipment and the most political reliable people in it. 

Phillip ASSUMED Stan problems at work was about Martha.  Bad move Phillip.  Never assumed anything in the spy business!

Was the pilot the KGB used to get Martha a KGB officer or a real Americans working for the KGB?

I was very surprised how Martha acted before she got on the plane.  She was more concern about Phillip than herself.  I think that showed that she accepted her fate and knew it would be OK once she got to the Soviet Union!

I must admit.  That P&E talk about Martha and Gregory (and everything they talked about) will go down as one of the most complex exchange between two fictional characters on TV that did not involved science fiction on TV.  WOW-that was complex on so many levels!

I still don't know if I liked the skipping ahead by 7 months.  But Page has become a "mini-me" version of Elizabeth.  Cold, and calculating and all about the mission!  I saw Elizabeth talk to Page as more of a parent talk.  Its time to stop acting like a child and start acting like an adult.

You notice everyone on this show had a heart to her talk about there lives with someone else.  EXCEPT for Henry???

Edited May 8, 2016 by gwhh

[rachelee]

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I don't think Elizabeth is a sociopath. I think she's a soldier and survivor, and she makes the decisions she does from that perspective.

One of the things I like about this show is that it paints all characters as human and doesn't use black and white, broad strokes to define them. So I find myself at varying points liking and rooting for each of them - this includes the USSR and the US in general - because each of them has a point of view that is defendable to an extent and none of the characters are irrational. I think to call Elizabeth a sociopath is to pigeon-hole her without a nuanced understanding of her background and the situation she's in, despite the show's overwhelming attempt to bring context to that. Having said that, it's not fair either to call Philip a wuss or to decide that Paige is a brat (even though I wanted to punch her when she ratted out her parents to Pastor Tim). To me, this is what sets this TV show apart from most other TV shows. The fact that I am compelled to care about everyone in this show is what brings me back week after week. It's a phenomenal show and this episode was jaw-droppingly good.

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Paige is trickier, but I think that's all fear. They're on a real ledge here as a result of Paige outing them to Pastor Tim. I think Elizabeth sees the stuff with Paige as literal survival: for her, Paige, Philip, Henry, and the cause. If Paige fails, they all die (in her mind). So she will do whatever she must to keep things on track. Abiding Paige's feelings may get them killed, so...sorry, Paige. Mama will be brutal to keep you in line.

ETA: Amen to the above. I cannot imagine the daily stress that Elizabeth and Philip must be under knowing that there are two people on the planet who know of their true identities who are not also a part of their mission. All it takes is one moment of conscience and Pastor Tim or Alice pick up the phone and dial the FBI. Most of us have things that stress us on a daily basis; this is the kind of stress that will fray a person's emotional stability pretty quickly, as we've started to see.

Edited May 6, 2016 by rachelee

[Blakeston]

I don't see Elizabeth's treatment of Paige in this episode as a misstep in handling her, the way that some people  do.

Paige just didn't get it. She still, after all this, didn't realize that it was crucial to stay in Pastor Tim's life. She thought that taking a day off was no big deal. As her handler, Elizabeth had to get it through to her that she could destroy the family by failing to stick with the plan.

I don't think laying down the law like that would promot her to turn her parents in. Now that Paige knows that her parents are Russian spies, there will always be a risk of her blabbing to the authorities. But I can't imagine her choosing to send her parents to jail, and ruin her brother's childhood, unless something really severe happens - like if they kill Pastor Tim and/or Alice.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, scartact said:

But, on another level, part of what fuels Elizabeth's anger toward Paige is that Paige's actions have not just endangered both Philip and herself and their work, it most definitely has personally hurt her and the incredible effort she and Philip have gone through to preserve and protect their family.

Yeah, I think her talk was very much mother/daughter. The spy stuff was there too because it was necessary, but really this was just as much about Paige as a person thinking she can still consider her feelings a big priority when lives were at stake. So hard to draw the line there. Of course, Paige isn't a spy--she has no interest in spying, Elizabeth didn't recruit her as a spy. She's a person who put herself and her family into this situation by telling Pastor Tim and this is the only way to do it. She's a bit like Yousef after he killed Anneleise and Philip was like, "Whelp, here's the only way to fix this..." But I think Elizabeth was definitely impatient with her as a person and as a daughter. Right now she feels like the only person with the right priorities. Paige can't just slack off on this and expect some adult to fix it for her, or for things to turn out right.

8 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth came back from killing Lisa with blood on her face?  Was that hers or Lisa's?  And why did she seem either drunk or shellshocked?  Was that the real signal they were at the end of their rope?  The Elizabeth we've known would not travel from a murder scene in that state.

I have no idea about that cut--I was not sure why she was so shell-shocked either. But in my head I imagine it's that Elizabeth is trying so hard to convince herself she's not feeling anything and that this is the way Philip should be behaving that she's not aware of the feelings she actually does have, so she just wasn't in a good place to kill someone at that moment.  That last threat to her safety freaked her out and probably plugged into all the feelings she has of being the only person who can protect herself and the people who count (which does not include Martha, Philip!).    

 

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

I think this is exactly correct and that's why they did the big time jump. I think the writers want to get Martha back on camera soon and they want her next scene to be either very pregnant or a baby already born thus the big jump. I think Martha is still in this because they know how important her story has been to the show.

I don't think they'd do a timejump just for Martha having a baby. And I think even they would see it's getting a little ridiculous to have Philip keep fathering accidental children all over Russia. We already have that story going with Mischa Jr. Do we really need another kid for Philip to fight for in his imagination and beat himself up over?

 

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Ok, this might be crazy but if they open the jar with the rat would the deadly virus expose everyone like the other one did? When Martha was staring at the peanut butter my first thought was that they had stuffed the rat down into the PB to hide it. Otherwise, maybe she was realizing she was giving up such a simple little thing as Jif PB?

I think she was just thinking about how she wouldn't be having any more peanut butter or a million other familiar things. They have the rat in a specific jar for contaminated things. Why would they be moving it around at all, much less stuffing it into peanut butter?

17 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Phillip ASSUMED Stan problems at work was about Martha.  Bad move Phillip.  Never assumed anything in the spy business!

In this case it didn't really matter whether he was right or wrong, though. 

18 minutes ago, gwhh said:

You notice everyone on this show had a heart to her talk about there lives with someone else.  EXCEPT for Henry???

Henry's life is more simple and he actually got what he wanted. He got more dad around. It's funny, actually, I was thinking of how Philip often has lines where he jokes about not being missed or nobody caring if he's gone, but there's some truth underneath it, and Henry was the one person who actually expressed missing him (and so dad not wanting to be around), also in a joke. The two of them really are very much alike.

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I think Elizabeth was right, Martha was a simple woman, and I think deep down Philip knows that there was a lot of truth to what Elizabeth said.  I think that is what really bothers Philip, that he took an incredibly weak woman, and destroyed her life.  If Martha commits suicide, or dies at the hands of others, I think Philip will really lose it, not that I think that anyone would ever directly tell Philip about it. 

I think while there's some truth to what she said--and Philip of course knows it because he's the one who exploited all her weaknesses, he was telling the truth when he told Elizabeth she was wrong. She didn't understand Martha and was over-simplifying her. Martha is not "simpler" than Elizabeth--in fact in some ways who's more simple than Elizabeth with her single-minded devotion to her cause? I really think Elizabeth's view of the whole situation, where this is about Philip like or missing Martha, is coming across more loudly than Philip's point that Martha being a human being made her just as complex and important as everyone else.

2 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Paige just didn't get it. She still, after all this, didn't realize that it was crucial to stay in Pastor Tim's life. She thought that taking a day off was no big deal. As her handler, Elizabeth had to get it through to her that she could destroy the family by failing to stick with the plan.

Yeah, "didn't get it" seemed to be the key here. As much as you can look at it from the spy perspective, this is also the kid who keeps stepping out into the street without looking because she just forgets Mom told her not to do that. Nothing was getting through that comfortable middle-class American safety fog.

[stagmania]

I really hope they wouldn't go the route of Martha secretly having Phillip's child in Russia. It just strikes me as an odd choice, not to mention repetitive to Phillip's backstory. They just went through all the effort of teasing out the complexities of Phillip's different relationships with Martha and Elizabeth, and had him state unequivocally that his life is with Elizabeth and their children in America, so what would be the narrative purpose of Martha having his child? To pile on more unneeded angst for Phillip and more fuel for the Poor Martha fire? 

I suppose it's natural to wonder if they'd go there given the length of the time jump, but this show never does the obvious thing, which is pretty clear just from the fact that Martha survived. 

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, "didn't get it" seemed to be the key here. As much as you can look at it from the spy perspective, this is also the kid who keeps stepping out into the street without looking because she just forgets Mom told her not to do that. Nothing was getting through that comfortable middle-class American safety fog.

Parenting is tough. I had one kid I could correct with just a tone - another who would not "hear" me unless I got to Defcon4. Elizabeth was at DefCon4 there, and I could relate in some ways as a parent. Though I do actually sympathize with Paige as well.

I thought the parallels between Elizabeth and Paige, and Gabriel and Philip were nicely drawn. Each generation has their expectation of what the next generation should do without question, and each older generation is always disappointed and baffled.

Edited May 6, 2016 by clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

Quote

I thought the parallels between Elizabeth and Paige, and Gabriel and Philip were nicely drawn. Each generation has their expectation of what the next generation should do without question, and each generation is always disappointed and baffled.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way but yeah, great catch! 

With Paige, especially, they set all this up the minute she started becoming an adolescent. She was challenging her parents all over the place and much like her mother was all about announcing who she was going to be and what principles she stood for. Part of that was wanting to be honest. And the thing is, her parents were very supportive of her in this and respected it. They're mostly only going against it now because it's become a safety issue where that's where the priority is for them.

But Paige is still trying to find a way to hold on to those principles and still do what she has to do. Like when she told Pastor Tim her parents told her to forgive him rather than forgiving him, she was sticking to the truth. This relationship, especially, has always been one that centered around Paige getting to say what she thought and Pastor Tim listening and agreeing with her. Now Elizabeth's telling her the truth--she needs to commit to a relationship where keeping Pastor Tim happy is more important than Paige being honest. (Granted Pastor Tim already destroyed a bit of the fantasy by telling his wife her secret, and if left to her own devices Paige probably would have judged him more for dishonesty there.) 

But yeah, history and place set up all these generations to have different ideas of what's supposed to be done for them and what should be expected of them. And I think understandably Philip and Elizabeth grew up feeling more beholden to the previous generation than Paige does. I just love, too, the way Gabriel and Claudia subtly echo the Jennings' own differences the way that Claudia's always stood for the straightforward Stalingrad history while Gabriel's now bringing up things he was made to do that didn't have the justification of invading Nazis.

[jjj]

I think part of the Lisa storyline was that Elizabeth actually had become pseudo-friendly with Lisa, in a limited way, having dinner and getting to know one another.  It was not a real friendship, but had the actions of a friendship.  Being so shellshocked at killing Lisa makes me think that we are being set up to understand how devastating it would be to Elizabeth if she has to do something to Young Hee, whom she likes so much more than Lisa. 

I would be very happy for Martha if she had a little Clarkovitch; would address that she wanted a child, and that she wanted not to be alone. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by jjj

[madam magpie]

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I think while there's some truth to what she said--and Philip of course knows it because he's the one who exploited all her weaknesses, he was telling the truth when he told Elizabeth she was wrong. She didn't understand Martha and was over-simplifying her. Martha is not "simpler" than Elizabeth--in fact in some ways who's more simple than Elizabeth with her single-minded devotion to her cause? I really think Elizabeth's view of the whole situation, where this is about Philip like or missing Martha, is coming across more loudly than Philip's point that Martha being a human being made her just as complex and important as everyone else.

Except that "simple minded" isn't what Elizabeth meant at all. She meant that Martha was easy to talk to and get along with, kind, open, warm...unlike her who is closed off, difficult, non-communicative, and often cold. She was saying, "I get why you liked her so much; she's easier to be with than I am, she's less work, she gives you more of what you need." It's the same thing that happened when Elizabeth insisted Philip have sex with her like Clark did with Martha. She thinks Philip prefers Martha to her, and Elizabeth is trying to understand why...and in some cases (like the sex) alter her behavior to fit what she thinks Philip wants in a wife.

I don't think any of that is true or how Philip feels, but Elizabeth believes it's true. Philip completely misunderstood what she was trying to say because he was so upset about the whole thing. Elizabeth wasn't criticizing Martha there; she was praising her. Elizabeth is so jealous of Martha it oozes off of her, but even in her jealousy, she thinks she sees what Philip saw in Martha and thinks she understands the connection, which likely makes the jealousy even more painful. (I do think she's wrong in her assessment, but not for over simplifying Martha.)

Edited May 6, 2016 by madam magpie

[kay1864]

Damn, now that seven months have gone by....will we ever find out what intel she was getting from Young-Hee? (or husband or brother)

Note to Philip:  you might not want to eat that Sloppy Joe Elizabeth serves you.  

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Except that "simple minded" isn't what Elizabeth meant at all. She meant that Martha was easy to talk to and get along with, kind, open, warm...unlike her who is closed off, difficult, non-communicative, and often cold. She was saying, "I get why you liked her so much; she's easier to be with than I am, she's less work, she gives you more of what you need."

I know she didn't mean simple minded, but she's still wrong in Philip's view (and I agree with him in this case). Sure she wasn't difficult or complicated in the ways Elizabeth is--but she's difficult and complicated in ways that Elizabeth isn't. I get that Elizabeth is being insecure and subtly suggesting that he liked Martha better for these reasons, but that's still at odds with the way Philip sees Martha or how he's thinking about her. He's objecting in part to the whole principle of describing Martha in terms of what Philip liked about her or how she was different from Elizabeth.

 

15 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Philip completely misunderstood what she was trying to say because he was so upset about the whole thing. Elizabeth wasn't criticizing Martha there;

Exactly. But her praise was condescending--I'm not even sure Elizabeth would entirely consider it praise. I mean, it's not like she really aspires to be that kind of person when she's not resenting not being able to best Martha at it. It would be like if Philip said he understood that Gregory was great because he put the Cause above everything else. Sure it's praise in that he sees Elizabeth as valuing that, but he doesn't really want to be that. He wouldn't be able to say that without it sounding like a dig either.

[scartact]

28 minutes ago, jjj said:

I think part of the Lisa storyline was that Elizabeth actually had become pseudo-friendly with Lisa, in a limited way, having dinner and getting to know one another.  It was not a real friendship, but had the actions of a friendship.  Being so shellshocked at killing Lisa makes me think that we are being set up to understand how devastating it would be to Elizabeth if she has to do something to Young Hee, whom she likes so much more than Lisa. 

I don't know if "excited" is the right word for what I'm feeling, but I'm really anticipating what will happen when we know the full extent of the Young Hee operation. Ruthie Ann Miles really has been so immensely charming and great in this role and seeing how much of a positive impact she's had on Elizabeth and how that's seeped into her real life (like when Elizabeth comes home laughing and Paige and Philip are watching Reagan's very red cheeks, or when she makes that Korean dish, or even turning to Young Hee as a de-stressor after Philip has successfully annoyed the shit out of her) makes me feel the equivalent of winding up a roller coaster and that moment right before you see the first major drop.

While we can gesture to circumstances of the last few days as part of the reason for her shellshock numbness at killing Lisa, I'm just bracing myself for the very potentially huge blowback of what may happen to Young Hee.

Edited May 6, 2016 by scartact

[AliShibaz]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

The story Gabriel told of turning in his best friend, in front of his wife and children, was chilling.  He felt no regret, only sadness that it had to be done.  Yet it was still kind of funny to hear him and Claudia talk about kids these days.  

I'm sorry that Gaad was fired retired before P&E were discovered.  I know it's speculated that Oleg will turn, but I'm wondering if the final season of this show will have P&E turning themselves in, making a deal with the FBI to go into witness protection.  P&E were so tense (up until their vacation) and ready to explode (poor Lisa--took me a while to remember who she was), so maybe in order to protect their kids they will decide to sever ties with the KGB.  Probably a poor decision since the FBI seems so incompetent  on this show.

I think the cut on Elizabeth's neck was from being nicked by flying glass.  Lisa was in no condition to fight back.

Alison Wright knocked it out of the park again with her (mostly) wordless departure.  Superb acting.

Run, Young Hee!

Oh yes indeed! I'm pretty sure it was Robert Mitchum who said something like, "The greatest acting I've ever seen is when an actor says nothing or almost nothing and just reacts to what other actors say and do.

And as far as Young Hee goes, it seems to me that the nicer people treat P & E, the more likely they are to be killed in a violent and painful way and Young Hee has been treating Elizabeth so very nice. But we've seen almost nothing of her husband. Perhaps the reason for that is if something terrible is to befall that family, it won't be quite so terrible if it happens to the husband. After all, he is the one that presumably works with these horrible poisons and so he may well be the one who dies a horrible, horrible death.

Edited May 6, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Chaos Theory]

According to a few things I read the time jump was done in large part because Henry has gotten big and doesn't look like the pre/barely teenager he is supposed to be.

Not sure how I feel about the theory of Martha being pregnant.  Part of me finds it ironic that Philip would have three baby mamas another part would find it a bit of an easy answer.

Also a part of me is hoping Martha for some ironic reason gets to meet the never seen first born of Phillip's.  I really want to meet the guy.  But that is just me.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I know she didn't mean simple minded, but she's still wrong in Philip's view (and I agree with him in this case). Sure she wasn't difficult or complicated in the ways Elizabeth is--but she's difficult and complicated in ways that Elizabeth isn't. I get that Elizabeth is being insecure and subtly suggesting that he liked Martha better for these reasons, but that's still at odds with the way Philip sees Martha or how he's thinking about her. He's objecting in part to the whole principle of describing Martha in terms of what Philip liked about her or how she was different from Elizabeth.

 

Exactly. But her praise was condescending--I'm not even sure Elizabeth would entirely consider it praise. I mean, it's not like she really aspires to be that kind of person when she's not resenting not being able to best Martha at it. It would be like if Philip said he understood that Gregory was great because he put the Cause above everything else. Sure it's praise in that he sees Elizabeth as valuing that, but he doesn't really want to be that. He wouldn't be able to say that without it sounding like a dig either.

It could been seen as semi condescending to Philip, I guess, but not to Martha. In Elizabeth's mind, she was acknowledging what was great and attractive about this woman she believes Philip loves and is mourning. 

Most definitely she's wrong, but it's not because she criticized Martha for being simple. She's wrong because her husband isn't remotely in love with this other woman and is completely devoted to her. But Elizabeth cannot grasp that. She just can't. It's so foreign and incomprehensible to her, so she keeps trying to figure it out.

For Philip, the idea that he's in love with Martha and not Elizabeth, or that he prefers Martha, is equally incomprehensible. He was stunned when she said that last week. In his state of mourning and guilt, though, he missed Elizabeth's point (which was admittedly buried in subtext) and got defensive on Matha's behalf. To me, it looked like a gross misunderstanding born from the insecurity and pain of two broken people. That's an easy way to slip into a fight.

ETA: I do think Elizabeth believes she's praising Martha. Elizabeth has come to see Martha mostly positively, I think. And she seems to be trying to compare Martha and Gregory because that's the only context for this situation that she can understand. She's wrong about that too, of course, because she did feel something like love for Gregory, and at the time, she did prefer him to Philip. I don't think Philip feels that for Martha at all. He feels an obligation to her as something he needs to take care of; her problems are his creation so he feels responsible. But I don't think he loves her. So the way Elizabeth is trying to make sense of this makes no sense to him, and in that moment, he didn't have the patience or headspace to figure her out. (Which he's usually very good at.)

Edited May 6, 2016 by madam magpie

[whiporee]

One other thing that's getting overlooked in the Paige thing -- Paige may have wanted her parents to be honest, but it was there choice to let them know they were Russian spies. They could have come up with other lies to cover up, but they went with the truth. That Paige couldn't handle it early isn't on her as much as it is on them. So this idea that Paige is somehow responsible for endangering the family is just another rationalization from Elizabeth -- just another manipulation by a spy working someone over whom they have power. 

Paige didn't ask to be the child of spies. She didn't ask to be recruited. All she asked from her parents was honest answers to their suspicious behavior. She doesn't deserve any of the shit that's been tossed at her. 

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I think the writers want to get Martha back on camera soon and they want her next scene to be either very pregnant or a baby already born thus the big jump.

To which Keri fumes "I had to lug this kid of mine around for nine months and wear the ugliest clothing all the time, and she gets a pillow under her blouse?  WTF?"

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Was the pilot the KGB used to get Martha a KGB officer or a real Americans working for the KGB?

Could be either, as the Center worked out the details of the flight.  If I recall, the plane went only to Key West, and then she was to be transported by boat to Cuba.  Therefore, they could use an outside source, paid for with cash.  Drug smugglers would be especially amenable to that kind of arrangement. 

Gabriel also mentioned that they were to maintain the "Breland bug".  Is that the mail robot or do they have some other operation that hasn't been mentioned lately?

Edited May 6, 2016 by Dowel Jones

[jjj]

44 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

To which Keri fumes "I had to lug this kid of mine around for nine months and wear the ugliest clothing all the time, and she gets a pillow under her blouse?  WTF?"

Gabriel also mentioned that they were to maintain the "Breland bug".  Is that the mail robot or do they have some other operation that hasn't been mentioned lately?

Kimmie Breland -- that is the home office/briefcase bug Philip planted last season.

And yes, they have done some serious thrift-store shopping of vintage cable-knit ugly sweaters for Keri Russell this season! 

Edited May 6, 2016 by jjj

[RedHawk]

Is Kimmy' father "Breland"? 

I guess during the 7-month "vacation" Philip was still working Kimmy and praying to Jesus so he wouldn't have to have sex with her. 

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

 I do think Elizabeth thinks she's praising Martha, though. Elizabeth sees Martha positively, I think. 

Agree to disagree, I guess, because I don't think she sees Martha that positively much at all. Not that I think she's that driven by dislike of her or anything. It's just that Elizabeth tends to value people based on certain principles. Gregory had them; Martha didn't. She doesn't value people for being open or warm or emotional (which Martha wasn't always--that's part of the over-simplifying.) I think she sees this along the lines of her giving Philip her blessing to go with Martha to Russia, acknowledging that maybe this is better for Philip rather than really faulting herself for not being these things that she's going to be rejecting even more in other places in the episode.

I do agree she's making it into a Martha=Gregory thing and trying her best to be as respectful as she can if this is the person Philip's fallen in love with. Since Philip hasn't seen fit to lay out anything about why he loves her the way she did with Gregory, she has to improvise based on her own feelings and can't really sell it. Because he doesn't understand the insecurity all he hears is her dissing Martha. She doesn't understand his issues so just hears him telling her to get Martha's name out of her mouth or something.

But I don't think that's all there is to it. Because if the two of them are talking about different things, the other thing is how to react when they destroy people. And there Elizabeth is pretty proudly on the side of not being eaten up by guilt or regret because you stuck an agent on a plane. She is saying, I think, that you need to have an emotional distance there. You can appreciate the person for good qualities they had (like being open and easy to talk to) but you don't demand everyone see them as a special snowflake whose loss is worth crumbling over. This is a woman who praises her mother for not blinking before telling her to give herself to the government. I think she absolutely sees Gregory as objectively worth more than Martha and also wants props for accepting his death without complaint.

 

22 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Paige didn't ask to be the child of spies. She didn't ask to be recruited. All she asked from her parents was honest answers to their suspicious behavior. She doesn't deserve any of the shit that's been tossed at her. 

Neither did her parents, but that's how the world works. Sure they could have lied again when she asked for the truth, but they gave her the truth out of respect. There came a time to choose between the respect you give an adult and the protection you give a child. Paige demanded the former and said she was ready for it (even throwing out plenty of other equally dangerous examples she was fine with) and they thought she deserved the truth. They gave her the secret but that doesn't make them responsible for anything she might decide to do with it after that. Why wouldn't she be responsible for the part of the endangerment she actually did? And even if we think she isn't responsible, what does that matter? The danger's still there and Paige is needed to keep it at bay. She can't just decide she shouldn't have to do anything and expect them to still be safe.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

Damn, now that seven months have gone by....will we ever find out what intel she was getting from Young-Hee? (or husband or brother)

Note to Philip:  you might not want to eat that Sloppy Joe Elizabeth serves you.  

I think so, and I think that's part of the reason for the time jump, it takes time to really develop an asset, and 1 month just won't do it. 

2 hours ago, clanstarling said:

Parenting is tough. I had one kid I could correct with just a tone - another who would not "hear" me unless I got to Defcon4. Elizabeth was at DefCon4 there, and I could relate in some ways as a parent. Though I do actually sympathize with Paige as well.

I thought the parallels between Elizabeth and Paige, and Gabriel and Philip were nicely drawn. Each generation has their expectation of what the next generation should do without question, and each older generation is always disappointed and baffled.

So well said.  If anyone needed DefCon 4 it's Paige.  She still didn't get what she's done, or how what she did changed EVERYTHING for her entire family, and that now there is only one way to control that.  Saying "I'm sorry!" is not that way.

BTW in This interview with the showrunners they talk quite a bit about both the need and reasons for the time jump, and talk even more about that scene with Paige and Elizabeth.  It's well worth reading, and at least the intent of that scene was that Elizabeth was more than justified and all parents lose it a bit sometimes.

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I think part of the Lisa storyline was that Elizabeth actually had become pseudo-friendly with Lisa, in a limited way, having dinner and getting to know one another.  It was not a real friendship, but had the actions of a friendship.  Being so shellshocked at killing Lisa makes me think that we are being set up to understand how devastating it would be to Elizabeth if she has to do something to Young Hee, whom she likes so much more than Lisa. 

I would be very happy for Martha if she had a little Clarkovitch; would address that she wanted a child, and that she wanted not to be alone. 

Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with little Clarkovitch either, and I'm still not even sure that other supposed kid of his exists, and even if he does, is Clark's.

5 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Is Kimmy' father "Breland"? 

I guess during the 7-month "vacation" Philip was still working Kimmy and praying to Jesus so he wouldn't have to have sex with her. 

He'd pretty much avoided the sex stuff with her, and she had relied on him more as a bit of a father figure.  Still, it's about time for that little sting to blow up I think.

[Superpole2000]

This is one time I wish this show had the budget of a blockbuster movie, just so we could follow Martha's trip around the world. I would find that incredibly interesting.

The overall effect of this episode was excellent. Nevertheless, I cringed at how Elizabeth was once again written to be a moron when handling her own husband. Everything she said set him off, and someone as clever as her should have learned by now what not to do.

[madam magpie]

Sistermagpie: For sure Elizabeth personally values Gregory more than Martha, but I don't think that's the point she was trying to make. She values Martha for the intel the KGB got from her, so in that way she considers Martha an agent. And yes, agents take risks and die or have to be exiled, and yes, Elizabeth values commitment, strength, and maintaining distance. The fact that Martha is alive is also a big deal. There's nothing for Gregory; he was sold out and killed. She failed him. So far, Philip has managed to save Martha. He did much better with this third person in the relationship than Elizabeth did. I imagine that grates.

But...huge "but"...Elizabeth has also completely fallen for Philip at this point. Right now, she's probably the most in love with and connected to him that she's ever been. And that seems to be broadening what she values. What she thinks she sees now is Philip valuing Martha for being all the nice things Elizabeth isn't. Of course it's an oversimplification; Elizabeth lacks all of the information and is seeing Martha third hand. Her lens is Elizabeth's interpretation of Philip's interpretation of Martha. But Elizabeth views her interpretation as accurate, and she values Martha now because Philip values Martha. Plus, I think that now, if she had to choose, she'd pick Philip over Gregory, which is a huge shift in priorities, thinking, and understanding. She may not be willing to admit that yet, however.

I do consider Elizabeth to be a pretty sympathetic character, though. For people who view her less sympathetically, I can see why the read is totally different.

[gwhh]

Where the mail robot at?  I am pretty sure they have not show it this season!  Bring back the mail robot?

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I do consider Elizabeth to be a pretty sympathetic character, though. For people who view her less sympathetically, I can see why the read is totally different.

Just to be clear, I found Elizabeth very sympathetic in this episode. (I usually do find her sympathetic.) I didn't think her stuff about Martha as I read it was coming out of a bad place either way you read it. I would even add that along with the jealousy and insecurity she feels there's also a whole lifetime of indoctrination telling her how she should feel and act. I think she had a lot of different messages and feelings coming into her from different directions in this ep and she just tends to try to handle that by doing or saying something while Philip retreats.

12 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Where the mail robot at?  I am pretty sure they have not show it this season!  Bring back the mail robot?

I believe some people thought they heard him in this ep in the elevator scene. And we heard him in an earlier scene once. That's the thing with the mail robot, he doesn't always have to be onscreen to be present!

[shura]

Didn't the whole "the Bureau doesn't feel" conversation happen around the mail robot?

I am having a lot of fun trying to imagine the mechanics and feel of the project of encasing the rat into peanut butter and stuffing it into a jar.

[ahpny]

Quote

Philip got some emotional relief from Stan's news that the FBI had been upside down for 3 days, confirming Philip's instincts were right to uproot Martha

Quote

Phillip ASSUMED Stan problems at work was about Martha.  Bad move Phillip.  Never assumed anything in the spy business!

Exactly. How, from Stan’s comment alone, could Philip have any assurance that the nebulous “troubles” Stan referenced had anything to do with Martha? The FBI is big place with lots of things going on all at once. Philip knows nothing more than that the timing and characterization of the “troubles” described by Stan fits. It‘s merely a reasonable hypothesis on Philip’s part. Seasoned spies would never accept this as conclusive or reliable.

Quote

And in that worldview, Paige's "feelings" card just sounds (to E) like a babe walking into a den of lions complaining about a mood. In that moment, with the "feelings" objection Paige offered, E acted totally motherly. She mothered Paige in the only way that made sense to her.

This was a powerful scene because it worked on several levels and is consistent with Elizabeth’s character. It reminded me of Elizabeth’s literal “sink or swim” tossing of Paige into the pool as a much younger child. (I think that was Paige, maybe it was Henry?). That was Elizabeth's version of “tough love.” This concerns Paige’s survival, and is concomitantly more important than Paige's love, which indirectly is a form of love itself.

Quote

I thought the parallels between Elizabeth and Paige, and Gabriel and Philip were nicely drawn. Each generation has their expectation of what the next generation should do without question, and each older generation is always disappointed and baffled.

Same here. Elizabeth’s verbal bashing echoes Gabriel’s disgust/disappointment in both Elizabeth and Philip regarding their mopping. Gabriel had to do, and did, worse. Each generation thinks the next is too soft.

But Gabriel does ease up on Elizabeth and Philip. Elizabeth on Paige, not so much. Would Elizabeth whack Paige if needed? From everything we’ve seen, Paige might want to consider a gap year very soon. And that’s sadder than any EST confession imaginable.

[gwhh]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

One other thing that's getting overlooked in the Paige thing -- Paige may have wanted her parents to be honest, but it was there choice to let them know they were Russian spies. They could have come up with other lies to cover up, but they went with the truth. That Paige couldn't handle it early isn't on her as much as it is on them. So this idea that Paige is somehow responsible for endangering the family is just another rationalization from Elizabeth -- just another manipulation by a spy working someone over whom they have power. 

Paige didn't ask to be the child of spies. She didn't ask to be recruited. All she asked from her parents was honest answers to their suspicious behavior. She doesn't deserve any of the shit that's been tossed at her. 

Lets remember it was Elizabeth who give the finally nod to Phillip to tell Page about there real lives!

Phillip never thought she was cut out for it!  Thought Henry was the better spy kid to be!  I think she finally starting to realize that he was right and it eating at her, what she has done and will have to do to page to continue there mission 

Edited May 6, 2016 by gwhh

[Chaos Theory]

Martha has been compared to Gregory but I think in a lot of way Young Hee is like Gregory.  Someone who Elizabeth geniunly likes and enjoyed being around.  I think it is telling that we still don't know for sure why Elizabeth is playing her.  I think the show wants us to like the friendship before it falls out from under them both.  

Edited May 6, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, ahpny said:

But Gabriel does ease up on Elizabeth and Philip. Elizabeth on Paige, not so much. Would Elizabeth whack Paige if needed? From everything we’ve seen, Paige might want to consider a gap year very soon. And that’s sadder than any EST confession imaginable.

Or you could say both older people did what they had to do to protect the younger. Elizabeth and Philips were running around managing multiple operations and getting huge results. They did need a break--and of course, by "break" he meant not getting anything new. Philip is still providing excellent information that Gabriel says is helping in the field in Afghanistan and Elizabeth is still working whatever the thing is she's doing with Young Hee.

Elizabeth came to the opposite conclusion about Paige and she was basically right. Just as Gabriel realized he had to ease up on P&E she realized that going easy on Paige was just putting her and them in danger. They couldn't keep gently prodding her while trying to protect her from the true fallout of what she did. So she, Elizabeth and Philip are all running one person.

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

DefCon 4

Just as an aside, as I never knew this until it was pointed out to me, DefCon4 is the second lowest of five alert levels.  DefCon1 is the worst, although that just doesn't sound as menacing.

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Martha has been compared to Gregory but I think in a lot of way Young Hee is like Gregory.  Someone who Elizabeth geniunly likes and enjoyed being around.  I think it is telling that we still don't know for sure why Elizabeth is playing her.  I think the show wants us to like the friendship before it falls out from under them both.  

Definitely! The thing with Young-Hee is intriguing. Elizabeth does really seem taken with her, but what's super interesting to me is that Young-Hee, in many ways, represents the traditional American dream, ingenuity, and capitalism. So for Elizabeth to be drawn in by someone like that is a real departure from what connected Elizabeth and Gregory. To me, it looks like another way Elizabeth is changing. 

[Umbelina]

Well, I knew that about Defcon 1 (from what show?  Ha!) but I think Elizabeth's reaction was certainly in a Defcon 4 area.  Defcon 1 would be eliminating either or both of the Pastor(s) AND Paige.

She's trying to avoid that, and at this point, the only way was to be flat out honest and blunt with her daughter.

[Helena Dax]

I'm in the group who thinks that Paige needed to hear what Elizabeth said to her about Pastor Tim. She needed to understand the situation. I don't blame her if she hates it, but her other choices are very limited and probably worse for her: going to the USSR, seeing her family destroyed, accepting that Pastor Tim and his wife must die. On the other hand, what she's doing can't work in the long run. What if she wants to go to college? What if she wants to get married with someone who lives in Hawai? I don't think Philip and Elizabeth would be too happy seeing their daughter devoting her entire life to that moron. And if were the KGB, I'd want PT and his wife killed in an "accident" anyway. If things don't change, sooner or later they'll have to find another solution. 

Elizabeth tried to change Lisa's mind because she didn't want to kill her and later she was obviously in shock. Hardly a psychopath in my book.

Stan talking about Martha was hilarious. "She looked me in the eyes and lie to me! What does it take to do something like that?". I don't know, Stan, you tell me, since you were the one who went undercover for some years and lied to everyone! And ugh, I hated when he took the pack of beers. Since that post when someone called him a bully, I can't unsee it. 

I understand why some people dislike the idea of a pregnant Martha, but if a baby makes her happy, then I'm in. And I'd like to see a bit of her life in Russia as well.

[JennyMominFL]

3 hours ago, gwhh said:

Where the mail robot at?  I am pretty sure they have not show it this season!  Bring back the mail robot?

I know, it's like the Mail Robot is a full-fledged character. Bring it back!

Re the poster above me and when does this end for Paige, I think it would be okay if she had a legitimate reason for leaving. School, Marriage, etc. But just stopping going when she is still right there at the same time might set off some alarms. I don't think she will have to spend the rest of her life(or at least until 89-91) keeping watch on Pastor Tim.

Edited May 6, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[CarpeDiem54]

8 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I'm in the group who thinks that Paige needed to hear what Elizabeth said to her about Pastor Tim. She needed to understand the situation. I don't blame her if she hates it, but her other choices are very limited and probably worse for her: going to the USSR, seeing her family destroyed, accepting that Pastor Tim and his wife must die. On the other hand, what she's doing can't work in the long run. What if she wants to go to college? What if she wants to get married with someone who lives in Hawai? I don't think Philip and Elizabeth would be too happy seeing their daughter devoting her entire life to that moron. And if were the KGB, I'd want PT and his wife killed in an "accident" anyway. If things don't change, sooner or later they'll have to find another solution. 

I'm so glad Paige finally got her ass kicked.  She's needed that for a long time.  She's the one who demanded to know what was going on with her parents;  they told her the truth, with one caveat - under no circumstances could she tell anyone their secret.  So what does the little imbecile do first thing?  Runs and tells Pastor Tim.  I actually wish Elizabeth would have told her they may wind up back in Russia and/or the Jennings family may be killed because of her blabber mouth.

I also don't see a way that in the future the Groovyhair family survives.  They're going to have to be killed off sooner or later (hopefully sooner) just because of the different scenarios you describe.

[AliShibaz]

6 hours ago, gwhh said:

I was very surprised how Martha acted before she got on the plane.  She was more concern about Phillip than herself.  I think that showed that she accepted her fate and knew it would be OK once she got to the Soviet Union!

You may very well be correct. I had a different take however.  I've been in a similar kind of circumstance before and I thought Martha's reaction could best be described in this way:

She had given up and decided to live her life (at least for the present) in the deluded belief that she and Clarke had a great love affair and she will always be able to cherish the memories of that love affair for the rest of her life. So, she was very concerned about Clarke and his welfare because they were both the great loves of each others' life.

Sound ridiculous? Of course it does. It's completely delusional. But my sense is that Martha's psyche has been completely shattered and she has no idea how to live except to live with this delusion that she and Clarke had this great love affair and they will continue to love each other for the rest of their lives even if they can never see each other again.

I've met people who have experienced this sort of thing themselves and who have acted this way - although not permanently. Most of them got over this delusion eventually. But if Martha were a real life person, I would think she would need to spend a long, long time in psychotherapy before she could accept the fact that what she and Clarke had was not real and that he had taken advantage of her somehow.

I would suggest that she could not confront Clarke about the reason why he could never come to visit her. I think she would just be too fearful of the answer to that and would prefer to make up her own version of the truth and live with that instead of asking him and having to hear him tell her the truth about why he could never come to visit her. She knows that if she asked, he would just tell her "some version of the truth that was not very truthful after all". Wasn't that a great line? Wasn't it acted masterfully? I am still in a state of shock as to what a great actor Alison Wright is and what a superb job she did with that line and with these two episodes. Applause! Applause!

Of course, since this is not a real life situation, neither of us can ever really be certain what the truth would be.

38 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I understand why some people dislike the idea of a pregnant Martha, but if a baby makes her happy, then I'm in. And I'd like to see a bit of her life in Russia as well.

I can't think of anything else that would give Martha some happiness or a purpose in life besides Clarke's baby. And so, I have to agree with you on that score.

I have never cried once since I've been ten years old. But reflecting on Martha, I've come closer to shedding tears for her than for any other person - both real or .... Dang! I can't think of the word to mean someone who lives in literature or films and not in real life.

The Martha story line was so well written and acted that it just tugs at my heart and it just won't stop.

Edited May 6, 2016 by AliShibaz

[scartact]

5 hours ago, whiporee said:

One other thing that's getting overlooked in the Paige thing -- Paige may have wanted her parents to be honest, but it was there choice to let them know they were Russian spies. They could have come up with other lies to cover up, but they went with the truth. That Paige couldn't handle it early isn't on her as much as it is on them. So this idea that Paige is somehow responsible for endangering the family is just another rationalization from Elizabeth -- just another manipulation by a spy working someone over whom they have power. 

Paige didn't ask to be the child of spies. She didn't ask to be recruited. All she asked from her parents was honest answers to their suspicious behavior. She doesn't deserve any of the shit that's been tossed at her. 

I actually think that both parties are equally responsible because it is definitely true that P&E could have lied to Paige, but she did ask for the truth and they gave it to her. They treated her like an adult at that point, and in a way they still continue to treat her like one by telling her that there are consequences for your actions.

And while I do agree there are power dynamics in this, I think it's more of the traditional mother/daughter one than it is actual spycraft manipulation from Elizabeth. No one really asked for the situation they were given, but everyone's collective series of actions led them to a place where Paige must work Pastor Tim and Alice, and she must report to Philip and Elizabeth. I really can't blame anyone for what they did, but at the very least I definitely side with Elizabeth that basically Paige needs to take responsibility for her actions.

4 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I do consider Elizabeth to be a pretty sympathetic character, though. For people who view her less sympathetically, I can see why the read is totally different.

I also find Elizabeth incredibly sympathetic and fascinating, and while I also understand people can have a different read on her, it drives me just a little up the wall when people call her a sociopath or say that she's unfeeling. There's one particular podcast I've been sampling and it drives me crazy the way they recap and describe her. She's a nuanced character and she's more than just the single facet some want to give her, and I think the Js and the writers have done a fantastic job depicting her.

[stagmania]

@Umbelina, thanks for linking to that interview with the showrunners; some great stuff in there. I was particularly interested in their perspective on Elizabeth and Phillip as parents, especially in light of all the talk about the situation with Paige. It seems that many people view Elizabeth as the overly harsh parent and feel that Phillip would make different decisions or somehow handle Paige better, but the showrunners see it as Phillip and Elizabeth basically agreeing on what needs to be done now. From their perspective, Phillip sometimes hangs back and allows Elizabeth to play the role of the harsh parent for both of them (a very common dynamic for two parent homes) but he doesn't disagree with what she's doing or saying and would probably handle it much the same way. That makes a lot of sense to me. Phillip and Elizabeth are very much alike; just because Phillip's personality lends itself to appearing "softer" on occasion doesn't mean that his core beliefs about family, duty and respect differ much from hers. We saw as much in his initial reaction to Paige getting involved with the church.

[madam magpie]

29 minutes ago, scartact said:

I actually think that both parties are equally responsible because it is definitely true that P&E could have lied to Paige, but she did ask for the truth and they gave it to her. They treated her like an adult at that point, and in a way they still continue to treat her like one by telling her that there are consequences for your actions.

And while I do agree there are power dynamics in this, I think it's more of the traditional mother/daughter one than it is actual spycraft manipulation from Elizabeth. No one really asked for the situation they were given, but everyone's collective series of actions led them to a place where Paige must work Pastor Tim and Alice, and she must report to Philip and Elizabeth. I really can't blame anyone for what they did, but at the very least I definitely side with Elizabeth that basically Paige needs to take responsibility for her actions.

I also find Elizabeth incredibly sympathetic and fascinating, and while I also understand people can have a different read on her, it drives me just a little up the wall when people call her a sociopath or say that she's unfeeling. There's one particular podcast I've been sampling and it drives me crazy the way they recap and describe her. She's a nuanced character and she's more than just the single facet some want to give her, and I think the Js and the writers have done a fantastic job depicting her.

I hear ya. My guess is that Elizabeth is viewed harshly by many because she does what she does for the Soviet Union, which of course is why the creators set the show up this way. I suspect an American would be given more understanding. I find Elizabeth to be incredibly admirable in some ways, very strong and powerful, and also really damaged and broken. I very much care what happens to her and want her to win. To be fair, some of that is Keri Russell herself, whom I've loved since her Felicity days. But I totally agree with you...I think the writers, creators, and Keri are doing a great job of creating a woman who's nuanced, complicated, sympathetic, and surprisingly relatable despite her extraordinary circumstances.

Edited May 6, 2016 by madam magpie

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth came to the opposite conclusion about Paige and she was basically right. Just as Gabriel realized he had to ease up on P&E she realized that going easy on Paige was just putting her and them in danger. They couldn't keep gently prodding her while trying to protect her from the true fallout of what she did. So she, Elizabeth and Philip are all running one person.

I missed Gabriel's dialogue when he told them they would have "time off" although of course Philip would still work Kimmy and Elizabeth would continue with Young-Hee. Didn't he also mention one or two other operations they each needed to continue?  

[AliShibaz]

41 minutes ago, stagmania said:

@Umbelina, thanks for linking to that interview with the showrunners; some great stuff in there.

I would like to emphasize to everyone just how great that interview was. I learned quite a few very interesting tidbits that I had never realized before.

I think most anyone who enjoys this show would find that interview to be highly worth the time.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The story Gabriel told of turning in his best friend, in front of his wife and children, was chilling.  He felt no regret, only sadness that it had to be done.  Yet it was still kind of funny to hear him and Claudia talk about kids these days.  

I did love the little "kids these days" tone to the speech.  I got the sense that Gabriel did regret what he had done, since he almost immediately offered a "it was them or me" justification for why he did what he did. 

I have no idea what is going on with Young Hee, but I do feel like if things end like they did with Lisa, it will devastate Elizabeth.  I mean, maybe Elizabeth is really a superb actress, but I get the idea that she honestly likes Young Hee and enjoys spending time with her. 

[Umbelina]

I get the feeling that not only is Young Hee doomed, but her entire family is as well.

[madam magpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I get the feeling that not only is Young Hee doomed, but her entire family is as well.

Oh...I hope not!!

[misstwpherecool]

Wondering if Elizabeth really did kill her informant. How the heck did she get cut on the neck after she whacked her the head and she was on the floor woosey. I was thinking maybe she let her go. Or if she was on the war path with Paige maybe she did do it out of shear anger. Wouldn't Elizabeth have called for a clean up crew or I forget do they cover up their own murders. Eh, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I don't know seemed like a filler and set up epi to me.

[Umbelina]

Killing someone with a broken bottle is messy, I assume she cut herself on a flying piece of glass.

She did kill her.  Elizabeth is not sloppy, it just took a while for her to bleed out.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Umbelina

[BW Manilowe]

Didn't they do a time jump in this ep? If they did & Martha was OK at the beginning, & then we never heard or saw otherwise--especially beyond the time jump--then, in my opinion, she should still be OK. At least for now.