The Mary Tyler Moore Show - General Discussion

[andromeda331]

RIP Cloris Leachman

[Milburn Stone]

Article about the cursed spinoff series Phyllis starring, of course, Leachman. It had potential, but fate was not kind.

[Egg McMuffin]

Cloris was an amazing actress, but Phyllis really wasn’t designed to be the lead of a show. She was most effective small doses; and she never did more than six episodes of the MTM show per season. They had to tone her down to be a series lead and it didn’t really work.

[JAYJAY1979]

Her spinoff the first season actually rated higher than Rhoda or MTM.  She had a strong supporting cast (sadly one was murdered after filming 3 episodes...and she and Phyllis played off one another well.).

When they switched her from the photography studio to a county office in the 2nd season..you lost strong supporting characters and people tuned out

[Blergh]

YIKES!, It's down to Betty White, Ed Asner and Gavin MacLeod remaining re MTM regulars!

Still, I   imagine that Sue Ann would have considered the lack of other female regulars able to . ..compete with her to potentially increase the odds of her having her way with Lou and Murray! 

[giovannif7]

Well, she may not have been a regular, but actress Joyce Bulifant recurred as Marie, Murray's wife, and she is still with us as well. Marie was generally very sweet, but I could easily see her following Murray's lead and planting Sue Ann's butt in another cake if she made a move on Murray...

 

[catlover79]

29 minutes ago, Blergh said:

YIKES!, It's down to Betty White, Ed Asner and Gavin MacLeod remaining re MTM regulars!

If you want to count recurring characters, Joyce Boulifant (Marie Slaughter) is still around. I think she was in the most episodes for a non-regular - but I could be wrong.

ETA - @giovannif7, great minds think alike and post at the same time!! 😊

Edited February 9, 2021 by catlover79

[Harry24]

15 hours ago, Blergh said:

YIKES!, It's down to Betty White, Ed Asner and Gavin MacLeod remaining re MTM regulars!

I just checked, and John Amos is still with us.  I just loved Gordy.  (Not a regular, I assume, but a semi-regular at least.)

[DoctorAtomic]

So we're all in on the joke about Mary's Aunt Flo coming to town?

I'm closing out the show and into season 7. They just did the one with the lawyer for Mary that totally fell in love with her after an hour. It seemed a little much. 

I'm watching when Lou proposed, and I'm dying with everyone crying at the end. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[WinnieWinkle]

Does anyone know old was Lou supposed to be when the show started?  He had seen service during WWII and had 3 married daughters so I had assumed at least somewhere in his 50s but Ed Asner was actually only 41 in 1970.  I think he looked much older - even now that I am much older when I watch TMTMS I think he looks a lot older than that.

Edited February 17, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[Milburn Stone]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:31 AM, WinnieWinkle said:

Does anyone know old was Lou supposed to be when the show started?  He had seen service during WWII and had 3 married daughters so I had assumed at least somewhere in his 50s but Ed Asner was actually only 41 in 1970.  I think he looked much older - even now that I am much older when I watch TMTMS I think he looks a lot older than that.

If he'd been drafted at the age of 18 in 1943 (a year when many of those who served in WWII were drafted), Lou's birth year would have been 1925. That would make him 45 in 1970. Only 4 years older than the actor.

[DoctorAtomic]

Being drafted probably aged people a lot more back then. Even Ted looked old. 

Lou and Mary in bathroom in the episode about the sleeping pills and then everyone barging in killed. I mean, it's obviously completely inappropriate, but the scene works because none of the guys were even bothering that Mary was in the tub. 

Wow, The gang is in Hollywood for the awards show and the hot lady reporter is all over Ted. He's asking Mary for help and says, 'well, what if you were married and Robert Redford came on to you?' Which is basically the plot of Indecent Proposal starring Robert Redford. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Blergh]

On 2/19/2021 at 9:24 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Being drafted probably aged people a lot more back then. Even Ted looked old. 

Lou and Mary in bathroom in the episode about the sleeping pills and then everyone barging in killed. I mean, it's obviously completely inappropriate, but the scene works because none of the guys were even bothering that Mary was in the tub. 

Wow, The gang is in Hollywood for the awards show and the hot lady reporter is all over Ted. He's asking Mary for help and says, 'well, what if you were married and Robert Redford came on to you?' Which is basically the plot of Indecent Proposal starring Robert Redford. 

But let's not forget Ted's most telling line was that if Mary heard anything from Ted's hotel room after the female reporter showed up, "Wait ten minutes THEN break the door down!" LOL

Of course, not only could no one have imagined the Indecent Proposal deal with Mr. Redford, no one watching back then would have imagined that he'd direct MTM as Beth  in Ordinary People (one of her most complex and intriguing yet unsympathetic if not heartless roles) just a few years later! 

[DoctorAtomic]

I know. I was blown away they just laid out the plot of the movie like that. I mean, maybe someone was watching the show and thought that would be a good idea for a movie. 

[cleo]

Watching season 3. It really is much better than season 1 and 2. Just some great episodes. 

[chessiegal]

I've been watching The Wild Wild West recently. A few days ago Ed Asner showed up as the major villain and tomorrow Ted Knight is going to be in the cast. 😀 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm rounding out the series, and I can't say the back half of season 7 is particularly strong. 

I'm on the one where the guys imagine being married to Mary. The concept doesn't really hold up. However, the third segment where they were all dressed up old was hilarious. 

It seemed like the actors were just having a blast. 

[Egg McMuffin]

It was good that they ended it after season 7. The show set the template for many MTM-produced sitcoms to come, divided between the main character’s work life and home life. But the “home life” stories for Mary were greatly diminished after Rhoda and Phyllis were gone, and the show wasn’t as good when it was just a workplace sitcom. They tried to bring in some new neighbors for her in her new building (Penny Marshall was one) but it didn’t really work.

[DoctorAtomic]

They lost something when they had to move. The old place was a place where neighbors were dropping in. With the giant apartment complex, people just don't do that. 

They seemed to have run out of stuff for Sue to do as well. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Kyle said:

It was good that they ended it after season 7. The show set the template for many MTM-produced sitcoms to come, divided between the main character’s work life and home life. But the “home life” stories for Mary were greatly diminished after Rhoda and Phyllis were gone, and the show wasn’t as good when it was just a workplace sitcom. They tried to bring in some new neighbors for her in her new building (Penny Marshall was one) but it didn’t really work.

It really lost something when Rhoda left. Mary no longer had a best friend to hang out with at home and have storylines that didn't involve her worklife. Phyllis wasn't a good replacement as a best friend and she left anyways. Sue Ellen didn't either. They couldn't replace Rhoda but I do wish they had given Mary a new best friend. As much as I love the work life stories I missed the home life stories. Mary hanging out at home or doing something with someone she didn't work with. 

[DoctorAtomic]

In S7, they don't really have scenes with her out on dates as much either. 

[Egg McMuffin]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really lost something when Rhoda left. Mary no longer had a best friend to hang out with at home and have storylines that didn't involve her worklife. Phyllis wasn't a good replacement as a best friend and she left anyways. 

The other problem with Phyllis helping to anchor the “home life” part of the show is that after season 2, she only appeared in 3-4 episodes per season. They actually removed her from the opening credits montage long before she got her spinoff because she was really only a recurring guest star in her last few seasons on the show.

[Milburn Stone]

Yeah. We're somewhere in S6 now in our chronological viewing, and it seems like far too many storylines are about Ted and Georgette.

Also, the backdrop outside Mary's new apartment is far faker than the one outside her old one. And the apartment itself is depressing. I guess they moved her with the idea that her high-rise would have new characters like Mary Kay Place and the already-mentioned Penny Marshall, but nobody "took."

[Egg McMuffin]

At that point, I would have married off Mary and had her new life with her husband be the “home” part of the show. Yeah, it kind of killed the “Rhoda” show, but that show was unusual (for an MTM sitcom) in that there wasn’t really a workplace portion of the show. Plus, Rhoda’s husband was kind of a jerk.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm watching where Mary throws a party for Johnny Carson/Ted's anniversary, and they lights go out. I thought it was funny, but then it was just clips of all her other parties. 

It's a great gag to not show Carson. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

And that's a wrap!

It's kind of a slap in the face that the entire news room got fired as a way to end the show. I'm more of a 'life goes on' as a slow ender than jarring events end a show. 

It was a nice surprise that Rhoda and Phyllis showed up though. 

I liked Mary's monologue at the end. I think it still holds up. However, I really liked Lou's last line right before - I treasure you people. 

I certainly didn't feel I wasted time watching the show. I get its importance in the cultural landscape, and there was just a ton of great gags. The zingers, the absurdity. It's my kind of comedy. 

 

 

I'll see you all on the way to Tipperary. 

[cleo]

I didn't like the ending either. I much prefer the style of ending where it just ends like any other day. But if they needed something dramatic firing them all just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited July 10, 2021 by cleo

[Hiyo]

Personally, I liked the ending, especially the irony that Ted - TED! - was the only one not let go.

Also for this:

[DoctorAtomic]

That was fun to be sure.

I don't know if maybe it would have been better if maybe Murray or Lou retired, Lou went somewhere else, or Mary was promoted type of life goes on. Or, Mary takes a promotion as full producer somewhere else like a Cleveland or Springfield IL. A big city like NYC or LA would have been a bit much, but a city like that where it was clearly a good career move for her, but moving on is still hard. 

I know the show is a sitcom, but it seems like more resources would be needed to hire a new editor, head writer, and producer, than to find a good looking guy who can read the news. 

[cleo]

I'm watching season 4. I really miss Phyllis, she's one of my favourite characters.

I dislike the story around Lou's wife leaving him. I would prefer she had died if they wanted him single.

And then in any ep she's in after that, I just dislike her. She goes out to the same broadcasters dinner she always went to with Lou on a date. Like why would you go hang out somewhere where your ex husband is? It just seems insensitive and thoughtless. She just acts like it was nothing to just drop him after a long marriage and family.

I don't know it all rubs me the wrong way.

[MSterling]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/29/entertainment/ed-asner-death/index.html

Ed Asner died Sunday morning. I started a rewatch of this show after I read about it.

[chessiegal]

Ed played the main villain in Season 3 Episode 22 of The Wild Wild West titled "Night of the Amnesiac". That show had a variety of known actors as guest stars, including Ida Lupino, Sammy Davis Jr., and Peter Lawford.

[DoctorAtomic]

Over 300 roles. That's putting in work.

[andromeda331]

He really was an amazing actor. So many movies and TV shows I watched him in. Mary Tyler Moore, Elf, UP, 3 episodes of the Glade, all three Hallmark movies of All of My Heart (among other Hallmark movies), an episode of the Middle, Kris Kringle in Murdoch Mysteries, and of course his own show.

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He really was an amazing actor. So many movies and TV shows I watched him in. Mary Tyler Moore, Elf, UP, 3 episodes of the Glade, all three Hallmark movies of All of My Heart (among other Hallmark movies), an episode of the Middle, Kris Kringle in Murdoch Mysteries, and of course his own show.

He was amazing. I loved him in the All of My Heart movies on Hallmark. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

He was amazing. I loved him in the All of My Heart movies on Hallmark. 

So did I. He was really great. 

[Milburn Stone]

Just for fun I went to the IMDB to see how many credits Ed Asner has. Between his movies and TV episodes, he appears 406 times, starting in 1957, up through projects that are still in post-production.

He was in 5 episodes of Route 66 alone, always as a different character.

[LemonSoda]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:50 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Just for fun I went to the IMDB to see how many credits Ed Asner has. Between his movies and TV episodes, he appears 406 times, starting in 1957, up through projects that are still in post-production.

He was in 5 episodes of Route 66 alone, always as a different character.

I can’t imagine anyone else as Lou Grant. He was perfection. 
 
Route 66 is underrated, some of the writing is incredible. 

[ljenkins782]

On 2/8/2021 at 11:29 PM, Blergh said:

YIKES!, It's down to Betty White, Ed Asner and Gavin MacLeod remaining re MTM regulars!

You jinxed Ed and Gavin! I feel like I should erase Betty's name from the quote as a protection...

What an incredible career Ed Asner had, I just recently saw him as Johnny's mean stepfather in Cobra Kai. 90+ years old and still able to play an intimidating character. 

This show had more than its share of longevity among its actors, Ed, Gavin, Cloris, and of course, Betty, all remained active well into old age.

I always want to sit down and watch this show through just for the time capsule vibe, but I struggle with shows from the 1970s. The color is always weirdly muted and the decor was just godawful across the board. Both home settings (all the mustard and orange, flowered, macrame, etc) and office settings (the paneling...lord, the paneling), I just have a hard time with it all. 

[Egg McMuffin]

Visually, the show was very dated within a couple of years of ending production. I wonder if that’s one of the reasons it was a disappointment in syndicated reruns from a ratings standpoint. I agree that it was always difficult to look at whenever I saw it in the 80s and our local station was bouncing it around the scheduling, trying to find a place where it worked.

[Blergh]

21 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

You jinxed Ed and Gavin! I feel like I should erase Betty's name from the quote as a protection...

What an incredible career Ed Asner had, I just recently saw him as Johnny's mean stepfather in Cobra Kai. 90+ years old and still able to play an intimidating character. 

This show had more than its share of longevity among its actors, Ed, Gavin, Cloris, and of course, Betty, all remained active well into old age.

I always want to sit down and watch this show through just for the time capsule vibe, but I struggle with shows from the 1970s. The color is always weirdly muted and the decor was just godawful across the board. Both home settings (all the mustard and orange, flowered, macrame, etc) and office settings (the paneling...lord, the paneling), I just have a hard time with it all. 

Well, when I was growing up my  parents' home was more like something from the 1940's and early 1950's so Mary Richards's homes and workplace seemed downright futuristic like the Jetsons to me back in the day! 

[cleo]

Funny I love the show's visuals. The outfits the women wear are usually great. Mary's apartment is great. I would love to live there.

I think occasionally some of the men's suits seem unfashionable.

The secondary sets ie Ted's apartment or other secondary character Apts look dated I guess. But those were infrequent sets so they didn't invest too much into them.

Edited September 9, 2021 by cleo

[ljenkins782]

On 9/9/2021 at 3:20 PM, cleo said:

Funny I love the show's visuals. The outfits the women wear are usually great. Mary's apartment is great. I would love to live there.

I think occasionally some of the men's suits seem unfashionable.

The secondary sets ie Ted's apartment or other secondary character Apts look dated I guess. But those were infrequent sets so they didn't invest too much into them.

In fairness, I said this days after attempting to get into the Bob Newhart Show and that show has possibly the most aggressively ugly, 70s decor ever. But the muted colors of MTM bother me too. This aversion goes all the way back to elementary school in the 80s when they made us watch Free to Be You and Me too many times and the scenes of NYC seemed so damn bleak even when it was clear the sun was out because the grainy film darkened everything.

But I did like the clothes on MTM, they weren't outlandishly 70s, IIRC. 

In the few episodes I saw, I was really irritated by Rhoda's constant allusions to being fat when Valerie Harper was nowhere near fat. 

[cleo]

@ljenkins782 I 100% agree that BS with Rhoda being fat or unattractive was awful. And not that uncommon today. 

After I posted I paid more attn- I do think overall MTM was superior to other shows of the era like the Bob Newhart show and that extended to the visuals. But I did note in Mary's apt I probably would have changed the sofa and the curtains, from the 70s style to something more modern.

It is true the office is drab.

Edited September 12, 2021 by cleo

[DoctorAtomic]

I have no problem with my house being the awfulness of the 70s. My couch in my den is the burnt orange. Right next to a drum table. 

[ljenkins782]

On 9/9/2021 at 3:20 PM, cleo said:

Funny I love the show's visuals. The outfits the women wear are usually great. Mary's apartment is great. I would love to live there.

I think occasionally some of the men's suits seem unfashionable.

I watched a couple of season 7 episodes yesterday and this is 100% true. Both Murray and Ted were wearing butterfly collared shirts in orange/green paisley with skin-tight bell bottoms. That is...a look. 

Lou Grant seemed to stick to the traditional 3 piece suits, those are timeless. Most of Mary's outfits are great, MTM had that willowy figure and everything looked good on her.

[JAYJAY1979]

Phyllis, Rhoda, and Mary all had distinct styles...and I knew many a female that would look at what Mary wore and would wear it.  And these are twenty something women in the last year or so of the show.

I loved Mary's original apartment and hated that horrid follow up apartment.  The original apartment was almost a character in itself..just like.Rhoda's attic apartment and the newsroom offices.

 

[Milburn Stone]

15 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

I loved Mary's original apartment and hated that horrid follow up apartment.  The original apartment was almost a character in itself..just like.Rhoda's attic apartment and the newsroom offices.

This.

We're rewatching the show in order and we're well into the high-rise years. I remembered that apartment as being bigger, with a much more panoramic window and magnificent view, and much nicer contemporary furnishings, than what we're seeing. This tells me that maybe in the 70s, to people who were in their 20s then (like us), it looked pretty damned good! Now it looks to me like a place someone would only go after a divorce.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[DanaK]

I loved the show when I watched it in the 70s and CBS had great lineups back then. I started a rewatch in the past year or so via Hulu and I’m somewhere in Season 5, and honestly, I don’t remember many of these episodes. I guess it was just the most well-loved and best critically received episodes that I remember best. I’m enjoying my rewatch, but yeah, things like what people were wearing are definitely very dated

[Scarlett45]

On 9/11/2021 at 9:23 PM, ljenkins782 said:

In the few episodes I saw, I was really irritated by Rhoda's constant allusions to being fat when Valerie Harper was nowhere near fat. 

I know. I know there were fewer heavier people in the 1970s but Rhoda wasn’t even “chubby”. She looked like any other actress on set. They didn’t even bother to pad her.