S04.E05: Clark's Place

[Clanstarling]

For me, it was sex when both of them are, indeed, "under pressure!"  Pressure greater than any they've had before really, because the stakes aren't just their lives this time.  It's Martha's life, and Paige's life/relationship with them on the line now.  Guilt for both of them over Paige, and tremendous worry now about how their actions are impacting their obviously upset and vulnerable daughter.  Tremendous guilt for Philip over how much danger he KNOWS Martha is in right now (and from the previews, he goes against the KGB once more!  He can't keep doing that, they WILL smack him down sooner or later.)  Some jealousy from Elizabeth over Martha, sure, and we've seen that before.  For me it felt more like sex as pressure relief, for both of them, and also a need for something to wipe out the worries, if only for a few minutes.  Of course, once it was over, the worries were still right there, thus the looks at the end.  They are indeed "in trouble" and no amount of sex will solve that.

All of this. Comfort sex may be tender, but stress and gotta get the world off of my shoulders sex tends to be more athletic, imo. Also, I didn't think there was anything at all odd or controlling about Elizabeth being on top. IIRC, it has been established that she prefers this, because of her experience with rape, and that missionary can be a trigger for her. I suspect, given her history, that she's been the primary initiator. 

 

So was Elizabeth laying the groundwork to bring in Philip and Gabriel as her troubled father and brother when she told her new friend that she only had a brother and father.

I didn't think of that. I did wonder at that moment what her background story was supposed to be, and whether we'd ever heard it before, because that didn't sound familiar. 

 

That sex scene at the end. All I got to say is-WOW!! I bet in real life they had to sound proof the bedroom at there house! Since in real life they are dating and Kerri having his baby soon.

Ok, now it feels a little pervy to have watched the scene. 

 

I really took it as once the sex was over, the problems were still right there in his life, it didn't solve anything, but it put things on hold for a few minutes.  Martha's still screwed (and not in a fun way!) and Paige is still in trouble. 

 

I think they did the sex like a handler thing on this show once, at least P and E had that conversation, and there was also the dreadful "show my how you do Martha" scene, which was profoundly sad.

I think that's the scene I was thinking of previously. Phillip trying to be dominant (as I recall) didn't work well in that scene. 

 

But the last shot of the show is Elizabeth with her eyes close, looking blissful, almost like mission accomplished (in both senses of the word). But Phillip has his eyes wide open and is looking at her with something that does not resemble affection at all.

I took it as Phillip going through a number of emotions/physical reactions.

I do think Martha will die, and one of the reasons is that Stan's comment about Nina ("they tell you you'll lose some, but...") seemed like foreshadowing. Phillip and Stan have gone through a lot of the same types of experiences, from being undercover, to struggles with marriage, to having your colleagues mistrust you, working assets, and dealing with snotty teenagers.

Hans didn't seem to be that great of a lookout, either Elizabeth wasn't a good teacher or he's not that great of a student. OTOH, it was enough for Phillip and Elizabeth to recognize Adderholt's car in the end.

Edited April 15, 2016 by clanstarling

[Bannon]

All of this. Comfort sex may be tender, but stress and gotta get the world off of my shoulders sex tends to be more athletic, imo. Also, I didn't think there was anything at all odd or controlling about Elizabeth being on top. IIRC, it has been established that she prefers this, because of her experience with rape, and that missionary can be a trigger for her. I suspect, given her history, that she's been the primary initiator.  I didn't think of that. I did wonder at that moment what her background story was supposed to be, and whether we'd ever heard it before, because that didn't sound familiar.  Ok, now it feels a little pervy to have watched the scene.  I think that's the scene I was thinking of previously. Phillip trying to be dominant (as I recall) didn't work well in that scene.  I took it as Phillip going through a number of emotions/physical reactions.I do think Martha will die, and one of the reasons is that Stan's comment about Nina ("they tell you you'll lose some, but...") seemed like foreshadowing. Phillip and Stan have gone through a lot of the same types of experiences, from being undercover, to struggles with marriage, to having your colleagues mistrust you, working assets, and dealing with snotty teenagers.Hans didn't seem to be that great of a lookout, either Elizabeth wasn't a good teacher or he's not that great of a student. OTOH, it was enough for Phillip and Elizabeth to recognize Adderholt's car in the end.

If they have Elizabeth kill Martha, and they write it like Elizabeth gets some pleasure from whacking the asset that was going Kama Sutra with her (Elizabeth's) husband, that won't be too creepy. Nope, not at all....

[Hanahope]

I was a bit surprised that Phil and Liz don't have better support, like a better person to do perform counter-surveillance for Martha.

[sistermagpie]

The Americans never find out who killed Amador, accept that Benson's death was a suicide, and all the other killings are just written off as random accidents. There has never been the slightest blowback on the spies, so it seems like a handy way to solve all your problems.

 

Vlad Kosygin might disagree.

 

 

And Zhukov - he was killed in retaliation for the FBI agents who were blown up by the German assassin, right?

 

But still I do get what the original poster means. People don't always connect a lot of this stuff with the killing of Amador in a way that makes them realize how much they should avoid killing, especially FBI agents. Many people were surprised Elizabeth didn't kill Gaad at the start of S3 but that seemed like it would have had huge blowback. Even if it would probably be heaviest at the Rezidentura.

 

 

But the last shot of the show is Elizabeth with her eyes close, looking blissful, almost like mission accomplished (in both senses of the word). But Phillip has his eyes wide open and is looking at her with something that does not resemble affection at all.

 

 

I saw it more as others have said, that it's just that the problems are still there. This sex wasn't really about assuring each other of the mere fact that they had it didn't solve enough. 

 

One thing I had to remind myself of is we don't really know if/how much these two love each other.  They might, they might not. But whatever they feel is a long way from a traditional relationship where you fall in love with the other person because of who they are. P&E may have learned or grown to love each other, but their foundation is the work and the kids. Phillip already feels as though Elizabeth is threatening that foundation by bringing Paige into the family business, and he's also doubting the work. H'e also been doing his best to go through a lot of self discovery. It's possible he might be thinking Elizabeth isn't all that, after all, and if he starts to think she's using/trying to handle him, that foundation could crack very quickly.

 

 

I actually don't really see this at all. I think we do know they love each other personally in a way that's grown beyond the foundation of work and kids, even if that's still important. I think that was a big part of what Elizabeth went through in S1 that she was scared at the way she loves Philip, how it goes beyond the clear boundaries she had with, say, Gregory. He makes her a bit crazy. Like even here the way she can still be jealous of Martha--that's totally against the way she really thinks she should feel. There's a lot of things they've done that they would have done differently if they didn't love the other person, I think.

 

I think part of the reason they love each other, too, is that they're both completely confident in the other person as a parent. Philip does think it's completely terrible to bring Paige into the business but I think he understands that in Elizabeth's eyes it's being a good parent. It's not that she doesn't care about Paige as much as he does, she just has different beliefs on what she should do about that. She's got the same issues with him--she doesn't think it's good to want Paige to have an easy life, but she knows he loves her. 

 

Despite Elizabeth's hard line stance I think she is moving more in Philip's direction. Her seeing that he was right about not killing Pastor Tim showed that they really do have similar feelings about the kids. And she said she was totally comfortable with Philip raising the kids alone based on his own values in that same ep. 

 

It wasn't supposed to make him forget about Martha. Elizabeth showed a whole range of complex feelings there. Jealousy, yes, but then concern about Philip, and I think she gets that he can love her and still love Martha.

 

 

That's what I see too. It's selfish in that it's jealous, but it's also selfless in that she cares about Philip being hurt. She probably wishes she could just feel the latter, but she can't control the former. I just don't think it's got a lot to do with making him more loyal to the cause. I mean, it is in a secondary way--she wants him to be able to get through this and still function. But I don't think she sees herself as manipulating him. The sex is for her too.

 

There was one time when she tried to use sex to distract him that I remember, when they were fighting about Paige in S3. She dropped her towel coming out of the bathroom and mentioned that Hans made a pass at her to make Philip jealous. Philip didn't bite.

 

Oh, I completely buy it.  And I can't help but take a victory lap.  I totally called that they would forge a connection with Pastor Tim specifically through the El Salvador refugee movement, when was it, maybe a year ago?

 

 

Yup! I totally buy it too. It seems like a natural way to go. 

 

Hans didn't seem to be that great of a lookout, either Elizabeth wasn't a good teacher or he's not that great of a student. OTOH, it was enough for Phillip and Elizabeth to recognize Adderholt's car in the end.

 

 

I don't think they actually did recognize the car. I thought they did, but I think the car he's driving is different from Hans' description. It was Adderholt himself Elizabeth recognized I think.

Edited April 15, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

I was a bit surprised that Phil and Liz don't have better support, like a better person to do perform counter-surveillance for Martha.

 

Well, they used to have Gregory and his network of drug dealers to do all this kind of stuff, but he's dead now. Elizabeth is essentially training Hans to replace Gregory's entire operation.

 

I actually like that the Jenningses are shown to have lost capability at the death of their most reliable operational asset. It's something I wish we'd seen more of; it strains credibility that, for instance, Larrick killed George the phone guy and they immediately had some other highly trained agent to route all their calls and parse all their codes.

[Bannon]

Well, they used to have Gregory and his network of drug dealers to do all this kind of stuff, but he's dead now. Elizabeth is essentially training Hans to replace Gregory's entire operation.

 

I actually like that the Jenningses are shown to have lost capability at the death of their most reliable operational asset. It's something I wish we'd seen more of; it strains credibility that, for instance, Larrick killed George the phone guy and they immediately had some other highly trained agent to route all their calls and parse all their codes.

It's been kind of a problem with the story from the beginning, the tendency to make the KGB superhumanly efficient. The best assets the KGB ever had, Hanssen and Ames, weren't recruited at all, but simply approached the KGB themselves, in order to get money. The KGB never even knew Hanssen's identity.

I think the writers had less confidence in the audience at the beginning of the show, and felt compelled to be more melodramatic. I really think this has been their best season, by a wide margin.

[Blakeston]

Not all countries have an extradition treaty with the US, and not all crimes are always covered. I think Sweden is one of those, in that espionage is not covered in the treaty.

The USSR didn't have an extradition treaty with the US. Neither does Cuba.

I'm not arguing that Cuba would be an ideal place for the KGB to send Martha - just that the USSR isn't their only option.

[madam magpie]

The USSR didn't have an extradition treaty with the US. Neither does Cuba.

I'm not arguing that Cuba would be an ideal place for the KGB to send Martha - just that the USSR isn't their only option.

I'd pick Cuba over the USSR...though I suspect the Soviets didn't let people pick.

[jjj]

 it strains credibility that, for instance, Larrick killed George the phone guy and they immediately had some other highly trained agent to route all their calls and parse all their codes.

Oh, that was completely believable to me -- there had to be more than one person able to handle the phones, as they needed attention 24/7.  We just saw the one guy.

 

And I agree that Philip did not recognize Agent Aderholt's car (how could he?) -- but recognized the name when he was introduced.  And Elizabeth recognized the face, although she did not know the name.  Yes, the net is getting very tight around them.  (Again, if only Philip had looked at the license plate!  It would have matched the final numbers that Hans told him!) 

[Clanstarling]

IIRC, Hans gave Phillip the make, color, and the final number. I believe Phillip walked in front of the car on his way home and whether or not it was shown, I would assume he'd check out the plates (though I'm not sure if DC requires plates in the front - so I could be way off base there). Elizabeth would only have been able to see the make from her vantage point. Though she'd seen Adderholt in person, so she recognized him. I thought it was enough to confirm that these were the guys surveilling Martha.

[J-Man]

I'm not clear on why Phillip changed into his "Clark" disguise when he was at the apartment. Martha already knows about his real appearance. Was he trying to match the wedding picture photo? I understand that he might not have wanted to appear as Phillip, but what was the point of becoming Clark?

 

Also, I noticed in the opening credits this week that Annet Mahendru (Nina) is gone (for obvious reasons) but that they also added Brandon J. Dirden, who plays Aderholt, as a regular for the first time. So I guess that means his character will be around for a while?

[Morgan of Hed]

I'm guessing Phillip just had the disguise handy in the apartment, and he needed some sort of disguise in case the FBI saw him leaving the building.

[jjj]

IIRC, Hans gave Phillip the make, color, and the final number. I believe Phillip walked in front of the car on his way home and whether or not it was shown, I would assume he'd check out the plates (though I'm not sure if DC requires plates in the front - so I could be way off base there). Elizabeth would only have been able to see the make from her vantage point. Though she'd seen Adderholt in person, so she recognized him. I thought it was enough to confirm that these were the guys surveilling Martha.

But when Philip came back, all he said was that is was the agent who had dinner with Martha, as he knew that name; if he had recognized the car, they would have reacted completely differently, and probably gone out to check on where the car was going..  (And if Martha is under constant survey by the KGB, there must be more than Hans watching her apartment?)   I have to say, I was a little surprised to see Hans in this episode, because I thought he had been pruned out previously for his lack of skill.

[sistermagpie]

I'm not clear on why Phillip changed into his "Clark" disguise when he was at the apartment. Martha already knows about his real appearance. Was he trying to match the wedding picture photo? I understand that he might not have wanted to appear as Phillip, but what was the point of becoming Clark?

 

 

Philip wears his Clark disguise to and from the apartment. It's only inside that he takes it off. When he was told to leave because Martha was being followed there he put on the wig to leave. As far as anyone in that neighborhood or building knows Clark is the person who comes in and goes out of that apartment and building.

 

I have to say, I was a little surprised to see Hans in this episode, because I thought he had been pruned out previously for his lack of skill.

 

 

He was just under threat of that for having let himself be seen by the other South African kid. He killed him and has been useful since.

[jjj]

He was just under threat of that for having let himself be seen by the other South African kid. He killed him and has been useful since.

Ugh, I had forgotten about that scene in the library. 

[Dev F]

I think the writers had less confidence in the audience at the beginning of the show, and felt compelled to be more melodramatic. I really think this has been their best season, by a wide margin.

 

I agree that this season has been very strong, but I would argue that it was actually in the second season that the KGB's capabilities started to feel overpowered. Take this phone thing in particular: In season 1, the Jenningses relied much more on coded radio transmissions to receive orders from and send reports to the Center. There was no sense that they could just go to a pay phone and talk with some on-call communications officer. In fact, when George the phone guy was introduced, I assumed he was just some American phone phreak whom Philip sometimes employed to set up fake telephone numbers for particular operations.

 

It's only in season 2 that he's shown to be handling phone services for all KGB operations in the area on an ongoing basis. Suddenly he's the one conveying regular messages back and forth between the Jenningses and the Center in some elaborate spoken code, and the need for coded radio signals have basically been forgotten.

 

Oh, that was completely believable to me -- there had to be more than one person able to handle the phones, as they needed attention 24/7.  We just saw the one guy.

 

Only if we're willing to accept that the KGB should have the ability to maintain an entire secret phone system that's monitored 24/7. That's part of what I think strains credibility.

 

But even if the new phone lady is, say, George's night shift supervisor who took over for him when he was killed, that doesn't change the fact that George's entire technical setup was compromised and would have to be reconstituted from scratch. It seems like that ought to be a tremendously demanding operation, not something that magically happened off screen in between episodes.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Dev F

[NitneLiun]

Loved the scene with the Rent-A-Salvadoran: a superb illustration of how the Soviets were always able to play American liberals like a fiddle.

The show is too good to have Oleg flip right away, but I think he's definitely headed that way.

The Soviets didn't refer to Western liberals as "useful idiots" for no reason.

[Helena Dax]

I agree that Cuba would be a better destination for Martha than Russia (or death or prison). Her choices are pretty limited right now.

 

I can't help but admire the way Philip and Elizabeth handle the pressure. I mean, I'd be a total wreck after a week living like them. And yeah, of course, it's clearly affecting them, but they're functional. I wouldn't. 

 

The fake priest was great. At the beginning I thought they were using a real priest: not a friend, but maybe someone leftist enough to have some relationship with the KGB. And I thought it was a very smart idea: if something can keep their mouths closed, it's this kind of story. But then we saw P & E didn't even know if that guy was a real priest and that was even better, lol. 

 

Stan's still the worst. I wonder if he feels guilty about Nina. Not saying that it's his fault, he did what he had to do -his job-, but he loved her and she would probably still be alive if he had left her alone in the first place, which is a bad combination. Anyway, when I really despised him was when he was accepting Philip's "apology". Dude never apologized back after attacking Philip and implying that he was cheating on Elizabeth! sistermagpie, I loved your take on that scene. Stan came across as a bully. 

[curbcrusher]

I don't know if the sex scene was just blowing off pressure or manipulative, but I know when the cut back to the scene after showing Martha, my first thoughts after admiring Elizabeth's backside were of the past scene where P&E talked about their sex training, and I wondered if this was real or not.

 

Related to that is something that I occasionally question while watching the show, and that is "who is in charge?" The Jennings family is after all an intelligence operation, and most of those operations have distinct hierarchy. Their real jobs are with the KGB, and as such they should have rank of some type assigned. I get the feeling a lot of times that Philip is "reporting to" Elizabeth. I got that feeling in this episode when he walked into the Travel Agency office and started telling Elizabeth about Martha, and again when he was recounting the phone call. I don't get that read every episode, but there are times it seems like the way he talks is more like reporting to a superior rather than talking to and equal.

 

I was glad to finally see Paige shut down. I don't know any Russian spies (or at least I don't think I do), but from what I've heard from people that had parents that worked for American 3 letter agencies, her behavior like asking about training in public at the bowling alley would have quickly gotten you sent back to the kids table. Telling a Pastor Tim would have been one way ticket to boarding school on another continent and forfeiting your next trip home with mom and dad. And if it got your parent PNGed, then you had a personal hell to deal with.

 

As to Martha's treatment by the FBI. I wonder what kind of security clearance she really has. My understanding of the practice in the mid 80's was that if any kind of affair was discovered there were two choices, generally issued the day of discovery: 1) Hand in your badge and pack your desk, or 2) Call everyone involved (spouse, other person's spouse, etc) and have a group meeting with a psychiatrist so that there are no secrets to blackmail you with. Oh, and by the way, no access to the TS stuff until the meetings over.

[sistermagpie]

Loved the scene with the Rent-A-Salvadoran: a superb illustration of how the Soviets were always able to play American liberals like a fiddle.

The show is too good to have Oleg flip right away, but I think he's definitely headed that way.

 

The Soviets didn't refer to Western liberals as "useful idiots" for no reason.

 

 

How did the death squads refer to Western conservatives?

 

I don't think Pastor Tim is supposed to be motivated here simply by being a liberal--although we have seen that there are some situations in other countries where he's on the opposite side of the US's official position (he's anti-Apartheid, for instance). He's also a Christian and cares about death squads murdering people. If he was a right wing guy the problem wouldn't be that he couldn't be manipulated in similar ways, it would be that he'd start off with more reflexive antipathy to Soviets no matter what. Which in this case would be an advantage, but could just as easily be a disadvantage in other situations. (As is kind of alluded to with the Afghan situation.) That's why he keeps focusing on whether they're "hurting people" rather than their politics. He criticized their politics when he talked about the USSR's treatment of several religious groups, but he's trying to leave politics out of it as Paige's pastor and just weigh hurting people vs. breaking up family.

 

I get the feeling a lot of times that Philip is "reporting to" Elizabeth. I got that feeling in this episode when he walked into the Travel Agency office and started telling Elizabeth about Martha, and again when he was recounting the phone call. I don't get that read every episode, but there are times it seems like the way he talks is more like reporting to a superior rather than talking to and equal.

 

 

I really don't think that's true at all. He is reporting her in that she needs to know information that's important to both of them, but both of them I think have the same rank because they have to work independently. Same as William. I think Elizabeth is just a bossy pants and Philip is naturally more agreeable so it's going to come across that way. Especially if you think of their history. She would have been hyper-sensitive to him taking any tone of authority with her because she seemed to already be on guard against him feeling entitled to her sexually. So I think he learned she felt more comfortable when she felt in control. Doesn't mean he always follows her orders by any means (in fact the showrunners have even said that they often start drafts by having one person say what they're going to do and then have to rewrite it to show them coming up with and agreeing on plans together because that's how they do it) but he's probably used to playing to that.

 

I was glad to finally see Paige shut down. I don't know any Russian spies (or at least I don't think I do), but from what I've heard from people that had parents that worked for American 3 letter agencies, her behavior like asking about training in public at the bowling alley would have quickly gotten you sent back to the kids table.

 

 

Yeah, I get why they don't have the ability to be like that the way an NSA parent would, for instance, but her specific questions about what they're doing seem like something they have every right to say no about. They are for some reason allowing her to be in this kiddie-space where she doesn't have to recognize that a foreign government isn't her parents.

Edited April 16, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Clanstarling]

But when Philip came back, all he said was that is was the agent who had dinner with Martha, as he knew that name; if he had recognized the car, they would have reacted completely differently, and probably gone out to check on where the car was going..  (And if Martha is under constant survey by the KGB, there must be more than Hans watching her apartment?)   I have to say, I was a little surprised to see Hans in this episode, because I thought he had been pruned out previously for his lack of skill.

Good point.

I think I just hand waved it as a short hand identification - like "Aderholt, the guy she went to dinner with" subtext: THIS is the guy who's trailing Martha. Guess it wasn't innocent after all.

Further, if my hand wave was correct, now that they knew who was tailing Martha, they wouldn't need to go after them. They would know where they were going, and know that they wouldn't get any results that night. Philip is at home, safe from discovery for the moment, as is Martha.

But it's more likely, as you said, that they just recognized Aderholt.

[Chaos Theory]

I'm not clear on why Phillip changed into his "Clark" disguise when he was at the apartment. Martha already knows about his real appearance. Was he trying to match the wedding picture photo? I understand that he might not have wanted to appear as Phillip, but what was the point of becoming Clark?

?

The disguise isn't for Martha. Philip doesn't want to be seen going in and out of her apartment. Plus it is "Clarks place". So he is Clark when he goes there. Martha may know what he looks like but he wears the disguise when he is coming and going from the apartment. Edited April 15, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Dowel Jones]

Only if we're willing to accept that the KGB should have the ability to maintain an entire secret phone system that's monitored 24/7.

 

Lucky for them this is occurring before the era of  telemarketing robo-calls and selling of phone number lists.

 

I don't automatically assume that Pastor Tim fell completely for the liberation theology ploy.  It was certainly put forth very earnestly enough, but he might be smart enough to call time on it after a bit of reflection. 

[Hecate7]

If they have Elizabeth kill Martha, and they write it like Elizabeth gets some pleasure from whacking the asset that was going Kama Sutra with her (Elizabeth's) husband, that won't be too creepy. Nope, not at all....

 

If Martha finds out "Clark" is married, well, hell hath no fury like a woman who thinks she's been played, and Martha could briefly turn into a real emergency that can only be dealt with by taking her out. She'd know to go to Stan, and it would be very urgent to stop her.

[jjj]

Martha is also the one person who could help generate a picture (drawing) of the real "Clark" (which is his name, as far as she knows, and we have never heard her ask if that is his real name).  So, she is dangerous because of that knowledge of his appearance.

 

I kept thinking "fingerprints!" when I saw "Clark" grabbing the photograph and leaving the apartment, but I'm guessing he and Elizabeth have no fingerprints on file.  But once the apartment becomes a location of interest to the FBI, he will be that much more vulnerable when they have a set of his fingerprints to match to something he does in the future.  Or if Stan decides to lift prints from a glass in his house.  ("his house" could be either Philip's or Stan's)

 

Am I remembering correctly that Elizabeth picked up and left with the glass (with fingerprints) she was drinking from last season, when she met in a bar with the bitter CIA woman who tried to turn her in?  (leading to the fight with Agent Aderholt and Gaad!) 

Edited April 15, 2016 by jjj

[gwhh]

Does anyone else think that Phillip and Stan are the same type of person.  Just coming from different ends of the same trail in life? 

 

 

 

 
Ok, now it feels a little pervy to have watched the scene. 
 
 

I agree!!

[Umbelina]

I was a bit surprised that Phil and Liz don't have better support, like a better person to do perform counter-surveillance for Martha.

 

They didn't seem to need it, until now.  From what Gabe said, they now will.  Too little, too late. 

I do think Martha will die, and one of the reasons is that Stan's comment about Nina ("they tell you you'll lose some, but...") seemed like foreshadowing. Phillip and Stan have gone through a lot of the same types of experiences, from being undercover, to struggles with marriage, to having your colleagues mistrust you, working assets, and dealing with snotty teenagers.

Hans didn't seem to be that great of a lookout, either Elizabeth wasn't a good teacher or he's not that great of a student. OTOH, it was enough for Phillip and Elizabeth to recognize Adderholt's car in the end.

I hope Martha doesn't die.  She's really a rich, and realistic character on this show.  There are other ways to go.

 

Hans is still a trainee, he did pretty good, and I do think that tailgating car was a decoy.  Was it?

 

I'd pick Cuba over the USSR...though I suspect the Soviets didn't let people pick.

Yeah, Martha isn't going to get options here.  At all.  The KGB is only going to care about protecting Philip and Elizabeth.  Martha will live where they say or die when they say. 

 

 

 

Lucky for them this is occurring before the era of  telemarketing robo-calls and selling of phone number lists.

 

I don't automatically assume that Pastor Tim fell completely for the liberation theology ploy.  It was certainly put forth very earnestly enough, but he might be smart enough to call time on it after a bit of reflection. 

I don't think Pastor Tim is going to go along with any of this.  The United States did horrible things, he knows that.  It's still HIS country, and frankly, the KGB and USSR also did horrible things, and also persecuted religious people.  He's not unaware of that, and he's the age that means he did the dive under the desk war drills, and lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis. 

 

At best, he's thinking it over.  At worst, he's already turned them in, or will soon.  I will completely HATE it if he does something idiotic like tell the Jennings (any of them!) that he is out though.  No one would really be that stupid.

 

I was as liberal as it gets back then, and aware.  There is absolutely not a chance in hell that I wouldn't turn them in.  The USA had and still has real issues that horrify me, but that doesn't mean I would betray my country.  Fight it?  Yes.  Betray it?  No.

 

If Martha finds out "Clark" is married, well, hell hath no fury like a woman who thinks she's been played, and Martha could briefly turn into a real emergency that can only be dealt with by taking her out. She'd know to go to Stan, and it would be very urgent to stop her.

I don't think she'll have the chance to go to Stan about diddly squat, from the preview, it looks like

she's grabbed by Philip next episode, and taken into protective custody.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chaos Theory]

We can debate forever the merits of killing Martha or keeping her alive. I am easily in the camp of keeping her alive until the bitter bitter (and it will probably be bitter) end. My major reason for that is twofold. One is that the show feels like it is winding down to something. The Americans was never meant to be a show that lasts forever and right now it feels closer to the end then the beginning. If that is true Martha could be headed for capture by Stan which would make sense showswise. The second reason is that Martha is a rich character whose loss will make the show less and not more. Next to the Jennjngs and possibly Stan Martha is the most important character on the show. I don't think the show will kill her at least until absoluly necessary.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[DrSpaceman73]

There are way too many people alive that know about them.

Martha and Pator Tim/his wife should be dead.

I find it hard to believe Pastor Tim would be naive enough to believe their story about being "good" spies that don't hurt people. especially in that day and age. It's hard to think back to that time given how long ago it was and how much has changed about the Soviet Union. The equivelant I think today though would be to learn someone is helping Al Qaeda, but just in a "good" way without hurting anyone. Its a tough sell.

On the other hand, Pastor Tim also likely knows if he does turn them in, he is likely dead. Or at least in serious danger.

I wondered what the sex warning was about, I guess they were saving the best for last.

The noose is tightening, I think Philip knows Martha's fucked, and not in a Kama Sutra way.

They sure are emphasizing Oleg's disillusionment, I suppose a defection is imminent.

I wondered the same thing about the sex warning. Started to think I must have missed it somewhere, then........wow, no, no exagerration

[dramachick]

Does anyone else think that Phillip and Stan are the same type of person.  Just coming from different ends of the same trail in life? 

 

No, I think they're a study in contrasts:

 

Philip draws strength from his family.

Stan alienates his family.

 

Philip takes no pleasure in deceiving and killing as part of his job.

Stan relishes having the power of life or death over others.

 

Philip subjugates his own desires for the people he cares about.

Stan gives in to his base instincts regardless of the consequences to others.

 

Philip is coolheaded and hard to read.

Stan is a hothead and wears his emotions on his sleeve.

 

On balance, Philip is the better man, but he's on the wrong side.

[snarktini]

I thought that the KGB probably provided them with a ringer, based on an off-camera request, maybe.  Almost certainly (to me) he was not a real priest, as I don't know that the Reagan Administration would let an obviously leftist Salvadoran priest gain a visa to the US, seeing as how we were doing all we could to prop up the Salvadoran government.

I felt like they overstepped by saying the priest actually came in from El Salvador, just to meet Pastor Tim. I get it's part of the conceit, that Philip and Elizabeth are so important -- and so are Tim and Alice -- that this guy undertook the challenges of traveling from another country just to talk to them. But c'mon.

 

I don't think they actually did recognize the car. I thought they did, but I think the car he's driving is different from Hans' description. It was Adderholt himself Elizabeth recognized I think.

 

I don't believe they COULD have recognized the car -- it sure looked like a different one to me. The tailing car Hans spotted was a "green Ltd", and the color was very, very light. The car Aderholt rolled up in to Stan's house looked black and much boxier. 

[Chaos Theory]

No, I think they're a study in contrasts:

Philip draws strength from his family.

Stan alienates his family.

Philip takes no pleasure in deceiving and killing as part of his job.

Stan relishes having the power of life or death over others.

Philip subjugates his own desires for the people he cares about.

Stan gives in to his base instincts regardless of the consequences to others.

Philip is coolheaded and hard to read.

Stan is a hothead and wears his emotions on his sleeve.

On balance, Philip is the better man, but he's on the wrong side.

I agree with your first point but not the rest of them. I don't think Stan gets any pleasure in the power of killing people or his roll in that. I think he regrets when he has to kill someone or use his power but like Philip is willing to use it for his own needs. I also don't think Phillip is a better man perse. Stan is not a bad guy. Like Philip he has done bad things for a good cause that don't always end well.

[Tetraneutron]

There are way too many people alive that know about them.

Martha and Pator Tim/his wife should be dead.

I find it hard to believe Pastor Tim would be naive enough to believe their story about being "good" spies that don't hurt people. especially in that day and age. It's hard to think back to that time given how long ago it was and how much has changed about the Soviet Union. The equivelant I think today though would be to learn someone is helping Al Qaeda, but just in a "good" way without hurting anyone. Its a tough sell.

I don't know. You get someone actively involved in, I don't know, pro-Palestinian stuff, or protesting the US propping up Middle Eastern dictators, and you tell them, "No, we don't work for al-Qaeda, that's not us, we just have Muslim allies the US is demonizing for oil money. We're on the side of innocent Muslims in Gitmo, but the US government calls them al-Qaeda agents" you could probably sell it. You have to seriously soft-pedal, and completely lie, but it's doable. Also, Pastor Tim is really naive. He WANTS to believe that so much. (Sorry to bring real world politics in here). 

 

Yeah, I get why they don't have the ability to be like that the way an NSA parent would, for instance, but her specific questions about what they're doing seem like something they have every right to say no about. They are for some reason allowing her to be in this kiddie-space where she doesn't have to recognize that a foreign government isn't her parents.

Because she's working Paige. She's trying to make her comfortable with having parents who are spies, by downplaying what she does. She tells Paige they never kill people, that they never hurt people, and that her job is so innocent it's like a cartoon character. She wants Paige to see her as Natasha and not as . . . her. 

[shura]

On the other hand, Pastor Tim also likely knows if he does turn them in, he is likely dead. Or at least in serious danger.

 

I think this is an excellent point and I don't think I've seen it discussed yet. If he decides to turn them in, what does he think his life is going to be like afterwards? Is he hoping that nobody will come after him with retribution? Rationally speaking, it's not a given that the KGB will decide they have to punish him. Is he expecting to be under constant FBI protection? Maybe even relocated somewhere under witness protection program? Would he abandon his current operation like that? Is he thinking about any of this at all?

[Dev F]

I think this is an excellent point and I don't think I've seen it discussed yet. If he decides to turn them in, what does he think his life is going to be like afterwards? Is he hoping that nobody will come after him with retribution?

 

Well, they probably wouldn't, would they? Revenge killings to discourage your enemies' citizens from turning in spies isn't an aspect of tradecraft I've ever heard of. I mean, if the killings are designed to influence the actions of other spies or spy agencies (like how Claudia killed Zhukov's assassin in season 1), that makes some sense. But targeting civilians only works as a deterrent if other civilians find out why they died -- which is exactly what spies work very hard to keep from happening.

 

In other words, by killing Pastor Tim after he exposed the Jenningses, the KGB would be risking other assets and further exposure to make a point that no one would ever be in a position to see.

 

If the pastor really were afraid of being killed, it would actually be much smarter for him to turn the Jenningses in, because it's only up to that point that the KGB actually has a logical reason -- protecting the Jenningses' cover -- to risk killing him.

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Pastor Tim is going to go along with any of this.  The United States did horrible things, he knows that.  It's still HIS country, and frankly, the KGB and USSR also did horrible things, and also persecuted religious people.  He's not unaware of that, and he's the age that means he did the dive under the desk war drills, and lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

 

I find it hard to believe Pastor Tim would be naive enough to believe their story about being "good" spies that don't hurt people. especially in that day and age. It's hard to think back to that time given how long ago it was and how much has changed about the Soviet Union. The equivelant I think today though would be to learn someone is helping Al Qaeda, but just in a "good" way without hurting anyone. Its a tough sell.

 

 

I don't think that's quite what's going on with PT, though. First, it's not like al Quaeda because it's a government, not a terrorist organization. So there's no reason to assume they're blowing people up. And that's the thing. PT isn't deciding whether or not to become a Soviet spy or throw his lot in with them. His choice is about whether he can protect Paige's family in good conscience. The reason for him to keep quiet is that he'll destroy Paige's family if he doesn't. But he's said he has a problem with this if they, themselves, are harming people. So they're trying to give a picture of themselves as doing stuff that he might not agree with in the general sense (they're government certainly does do bad things) but they're not hurting people individually. The stuff where they talk about being Peacekeepers etc. really does work because it genuinely is something they have in common with him.

 

So Pastor Tim doesn't ever have to decide that the USSR isn't so bad etc. He just has to feel comfortable with Philip and Elizabeth walking the streets regardless of the government they're working for. For instance, would Pastor Tim have a problem with Arkady being in his church? He's a Russian spy too. His fears about Philip and Elizabeth is that the fact that they're lying means they're committing crimes of which he can't approve no matter what their motivation.

 

I felt like they overstepped by saying the priest actually came in from El Salvador, just to meet Pastor Tim. I get it's part of the conceit, that Philip and Elizabeth are so important -- and so are Tim and Alice -- that this guy undertook the challenges of traveling from another country just to talk to them. But c'mon.

 

 

Did they say he was coming from there? I figured the idea was supposed to be that he was in the US working with them and that's why he was available. But maybe they were playing to Pastor Tim's ego by telling him the guy had just flown in to talk to him.

 

I also don't think Phillip is a better man perse. Stan is not a bad guy. Like Philip he has done bad things for a good cause that don't always end well.

 

 

I don't know if I believe that at the moment just because very often it really doesn't seem like Stan's doing things for a good cause. It's not that he's always doing things for a terrible cause, but I could almost see it as the opposite, that Philip's bad cause masks/undermines his good intentions but Stan's good cause masks/undermines his bad ones. Like there are times where it seems like he's been able to convince himself he's the good guy when he's acting out of ego and sort of distorting the situation to suit what he needs from it. I guess it's also just that for all Philip and Elizabeth are on the wrong side I can think of so many times where Elizabeth is genuinely trying to sacrifice herself and Philip is genuinely caring about others. Stan just has it so much easier because of his better situation--there's less required of him yet he still thoughtlessly makes things worse for people.

 

I think this is an excellent point and I don't think I've seen it discussed yet. If he decides to turn them in, what does he think his life is going to be like afterwards?

 

 

I don't think he's got any fears on that score. There's no real reason he should. If he outs them then that's why they got outed. The KGB would have no reason to go after him. The bad fallout for him wouldn't be his life in danger but the damage he'd have done to Paige.

[Umbelina]

I like most of that post Maggie and agree with most of it, but I have one significant difference of opinion.

So Pastor Tim doesn't ever have to decide that the USSR isn't so bad etc. He just has to feel comfortable with Philip and Elizabeth walking the streets regardless of the government they're working for. For instance, would Pastor Tim have a problem with Arkady being in his church? He's a Russian spy too. His fears about Philip and Elizabeth is that the fact that they're lying means they're committing crimes of which he can't approve no matter what their motivation.

 

It's the frickin' KGB we are talking about here.

 

No one who lived through those times it quite that naive.  He knows who they work for, and he knows their methods.  If anything, a logical person would decide Paige is much better off, and more likely to stay alive, AWAY from those parents. 
 

 

I think this is an excellent point and I don't think I've seen it discussed yet. If he decides to turn them in, what does he think his life is going to be like afterwards?

 

    

I don't think he's got any fears on that score. There's no real reason he should. If he outs them then that's why they got outed. The KGB would have no reason to go after him. The bad fallout for him wouldn't be his life in danger but the damage he'd have done to Paige.

 

I'm not so sure about this either.  We kind of know the KGB wouldn't touch him, benefit of hindsight, a lot of books written by ex-KGB and American/British/German etc. spies that were published after the Cold War ended, and the wall came down.  Would he know that back then?  While I completely agree the KGB wouldn't touch him once he'd spilled everything he does now, or be stupid enough to go for retribution, would I have realized that back then?  Would he?  Honestly, putting myself in his shoes I'd be terrified of exactly that.  Maybe the FBI would reassure me or clue me in that it's highly unlikely anything would happen, but I'd still be scared silly.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

No one who lived through those times it quite that naive.  He knows who they work for, and he knows their methods.  If anything, a logical person would decide Paige is much better off, and more likely to stay alive, AWAY from those parents.

 

 

But he knows what they're like as parents so he has reason to think she would be much worse off without them. Sometimes even people blowing the whistle on an abuse situation can still feel conflicted because they know losing the parent might be just as much or more traumatizing to the kid. Like even if they do something about it they're to know they're causing pain for the kid. In Paige's case he knows that whatever they're doing as spies her experience of them is as loving parents. It's only the lying that hurt her. It seems like that's the way they're trying to position him. He does associate spies--presumably especially Russian ones--with bad things, but he doesn't see those bad things happening to Paige because they're not. Plus he's not supposed to care about whether or not he'll be hurt. (And really, if he was worried about being hurt he's handled it the worst possible way.)

 

I'm not so sure about this either.  We kind of know the KGB wouldn't touch him, benefit of hindsight, a lot of books written by ex-KGB and American/British/German etc. spies that were published after the Cold War ended, and the wall came down.  Would he know that back then?

 

 

It's hard to say, but I feel like it's realistic he would like he'd be safe after turning them in. I don't remember people really connecting outing a Russian spy ring with being killed in revenge. It's more like what Stan said--people love to cooperate. I think if Paige had shared this story with her youth group most of the kids in it would have happily called up the FBI and turned them in and gone on TV to talk about it without it ever occurring to them that the KGB would kill them for it. So would most if not all of their parents. They're Americans protecting America.

Edited April 16, 2016 by sistermagpie

[snarktini]

Did they say he was coming from there? I figured the idea was supposed to be that he was in the US working with them and that's why he was available. But maybe they were playing to Pastor Tim's ego by telling him the guy had just flown in to talk to him.

 

 

Since you asked, I rewatched the scene. It's not as clear as I thought.

 

They introduced Rivas as "working with us in El Salvador". And he says “When they told me a priest in America wants to know what they do I say you must bring me to him.” Saying “in America” and “in El Salvador” implies to me he is usually in El Salvador. But it is open to interpretation.

[SlackerInc]

I think the writers had less confidence in the audience at the beginning of the show, and felt compelled to be more melodramatic. I really think this has been their best season, by a wide margin.

 

I don't know about "by a wide margin", but it is definitely very good so far.

 

What I think is interesting is the showrunners saying that they made a conscious decision to make the show more realistic--starting in season two.  That had, for me, some of the least realistic storylines (the super-soldier, and Jared the teen killer).

 

How did the death squads refer to Western conservatives?

 

Oh snap!  Well played.

 

I kept thinking "fingerprints!" when I saw "Clark" grabbing the photograph and leaving the apartment, but I'm guessing he and Elizabeth have no fingerprints on file.  But once the apartment becomes a location of interest to the FBI, he will be that much more vulnerable when they have a set of his fingerprints to match to something he does in the future.  Or if Stan decides to lift prints from a glass in his house.  ("his house" could be either Philip's or Stan's)

 

Am I remembering correctly that Elizabeth picked up and left with the glass (with fingerprints) she was drinking from last season, when she met in a bar with the bitter CIA woman who tried to turn her in?  (leading to the fight with Agent Aderholt and Gaad!) 

 

I was thinking about the fingerprints issue too.  And I think you've got it almost right: in that bar scene, when she sussed out that things had gone south, she quickly wiped off the glass before getting up and leaving.

[Valmarmar]

Thanks, Moose135 -

[Haleth]

Omigosh, the tension on this show is palpable.  Between Martha and Paige I don't know which one is going to snap first.  Both are so conflicted and are heading for a breakdown.  Even if Martha holds it together I suspect she will be a goner by season end.  I foresee a blood bath... Martha, Tim, and Alice.  And maybe the nice Korean lady.

Don't think it's been revealed yet.  I think there is a chance that they are building towards  Elizabeth, for the first time, having a real, well developed, affection for one of her victims. 

Run, nice Korean lady!  This cannot end well.

 

Martha's death could be chalked up to a suicide due to being spurned by her married lover.  

 

I also foresee Stan grooming Henry to spy on his parents by presenting it as a game.  Henry loves games (Trivial Pursuit!  Yay!) and technology.

 

I've come to really like Oleg.  It's kind of cliche to think he will become so disillusioned with USSR politics that he'd defect, but it looks like that might happen.  Otherwise how well written is this show that the embassy Russians are not mustache twirling villains?  Oleg and Arkady are presented as decent people, but the leads, Philip and Elizabeth, who are supposed to have our sympathy, are actually terrible people.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Haleth

[shura]

It's hard to say, but I feel like it's realistic he would like he'd be safe after turning them in. I don't remember people really connecting outing a Russian spy ring with being killed in revenge.

 

What if someone helped him connect these things? I agree, logically speaking, the KGB will have no reason to kill him once he outs the Jenningses. How about sending someone before he goes to the FBI to promise him that he and Alice will be killed in revenge if he does it? How will he react? On the one hand, this may confirm to him that Philip and Elizabeth do harm people (although the messenger might be able to represent himself as a separate entity from them somehow). On the other hand, he will have consequences explained to him. Even if he can hope for witness protection, it will disrupt his established work severely. Would that be a deterrent for him?

[beeble]

Oleg is by far, for me, the most interesting character on this show. The actor is just riveting whether he is speaking Russian or English. And he doesn't have to do silly spy things like wear a wig and pretend to be someone he isn't. He just shows incredible depth with his characterization, even in complete silence. I think he's the best actor on the show. Emmy nominators: notice this guy!

 

Philip finds comfort in his kids and he can relax around them. And yet...he should have noticed Henry's absence just a little sooner. That always bugs me. Our kid is hanging out at the FBI agent's house...again. Henry is so clearly in need of attention - I get that everyone is stressed out but this is essentially parental neglect.  And speaking of Stan, WTF is up with his kid? That is one creepy teenager. (But even he thought Henry's behavior was weird)

 

Maybe this is wishful thinking, but I think Martha might have some reservoirs of strength. She didn't get her job by simply taking a typing class. She is smart. She'll figure out soon enough that "Clark" doesn't work for that agency he claims to, simply by realizing that their office budget couldn't possibly be that high for one guy to spy on FBI counter-terrorism. He's only supposed to root out internal affair indiscretions, most likely with budget screw ups. At some point she has to figure out that he's going well above and beyond what any bureaucratic oversight agent would do. (Of course, her world is crashing around her and she probably can't think straight. I'm sure Valium and scotch will clear that head of hers right up.) (Oh - and where the hell is this agency when it comes to checking out Carrie in Homeland? Clark - you're needed on another show)

 

I don't think Stan and Aderholt have permission to hold a Martha stakeout. Doesn't anybody follow rules anymore? 

[Knuckles]

"It's the frickin' KGB we are talking about here."

 

Agreed. No one who lived thru the 70s and 80s would be in any doubt about the deadly danger the KGB represents. The Cold War was at its height, Reagan was promoting the Star Wars defense against possible Russian attacks, there were ongoing bloody proxy wars in Afghanistan and Central America, and Jewish dissidents trying to escape Russia underlined the feeling that the Soviet Union itself was an enormous gulag. The KGB was seen as a spooky, scary, deadly organization.

And it was. 

 

If Tim and Alice had a brain cell between them, they would decide that this is all above their pay grade and notify the FBI. Let the pros sort it out. They are in no position to have enough info to make a reasonable decision. That they continue to meet with the Jennings indicate how clueless these two are. Paige herself is better protected by having the FBI vet the situation. We viewers haven't had a chance to see how Tim and Alice react to the latest visit...but it is long past time for them to bail.

And that they meet the Jennings and friend in their office after hours, without anyone else knowing...have these two never read a LeCarre novel?

[jrlr]

I think i'd better go back and watch the scene with Pastor Tim and his wife and the Jennings and the "priest," because I thought it was clunky, unconvincing and badly written and acted (and I usually think both acting and writing are top notch here).  I didn't believe Elizabeth's gooey, nicey-nice do-gooder attitude and speeches about them all being on the same side, I didn't buy the visiting priest - who looked like he was suddenly dropped into an alien atmosphere - or the nonsense about him wanting to meet them and I didn't buy PT and his wife sitting there like dummies and maybe/maybe not believing the b.s. being spewed at them.   But I'm already tired of this sub-plot anyway, and wish they would just shuttle Paige - whom I  find annoying as hell - off to boarding school.   The professional spies and assets are so much more interesting than the pastor and his wife.   I think the only one here I care about at all is Oleg, who ought to run off, assume a new identity and become a ski instructor.

[Tetraneutron]

 I didn't believe Elizabeth's gooey, nicey-nice do-gooder attitude and speeches about them all being on the same side, I didn't buy the visiting priest - who looked like he was suddenly dropped into an alien atmosphere - or the nonsense about him wanting to meet them and I didn't buy PT and his wife sitting there like dummies and maybe/maybe not believing the b.s. being spewed at them.  

We aren't supposed to believe it. We know who Elizabeth is. But the nicey-nice, doo-gooder Tim is supposed to believe it. They tailor made this cover story, and their personas, for them. Besides, Paige is the most important part of the storyline right now since she's the one thing that might get Elizabeth to do something rash, or to change how she sees the world. Up until now Elizabeth was completely devoted to the cause and did whatever was best for the USSR. Now for the first time she might not be. 

 

And why a ski instructor?

 

If Tim and Alice had a brain cell between them, they would decide that this is all above their pay grade and notify the FBI. Let the pros sort it out. They are in no position to have enough info to make a reasonable decision. That they continue to meet with the Jennings indicate how clueless these two are. Paige herself is better protected by having the FBI vet the situation. We viewers haven't had a chance to see how Tim and Alice react to the latest visit...but it is long past time for them to bail.

If a teenage girl you knew came up to you and told you her parents were Soviet spies, would you march right to the FBI and tell them? Would you, a little community youth pastor, disturb the big, serious, important FBI men with the stories of some average teenage girl you know doesn't have the best relationship with her parents and might need some attention from a trusted adult? Especially with something that sounds like it came straight out of the pulpiest airport novel? Most wouldn't. Frankly, Paige is lucky he didn't send her to a therapist.

 

Pastor Tim is behaving the way I suspect most people would - trying to find a way so it doesn't have to be real. So he doesn't have to take that step and then find out he was completely wrong and he's just wasted the FBI's time and made himself look like the world's biggest idiot. Or he doesn't have to worry that he himself, and a member of his flock, is in serious danger by powerful forces he can't stop. He WANTS it all to have a reasonable explanation so he doesn't have to blow up his life one way or another. 

[madam magpie]

We aren't supposed to believe it. We know who Elizabeth is. But the nicey-nice, doo-gooder Tim is supposed to believe it. They tailor made this cover story, and their personas, for them. Besides, Paige is the most important part of the storyline right now since she's the one thing that might get Elizabeth to do something rash, or to change how she sees the world. Up until now Elizabeth was completely devoted to the cause and did whatever was best for the USSR. Now for the first time she might not be.

And why a ski instructor?

If a teenage girl you knew came up to you and told you her parents were Soviet spies, would you march right to the FBI and tell them? Would you, a little community youth pastor, disturb the big, serious, important FBI men with the stories of some average teenage girl you know doesn't have the best relationship with her parents and might need some attention from a trusted adult? Especially with something that sounds like it came straight out of the pulpiest airport novel? Most wouldn't. Frankly, Paige is lucky he didn't send her to a therapist.

Pastor Tim is behaving the way I suspect most people would - trying to find a way so it doesn't have to be real. So he doesn't have to take that step and then find out he was completely wrong and he's just wasted the FBI's time and made himself look like the world's biggest idiot. Or he doesn't have to worry that he himself, and a member of his flock, is in serious danger by powerful forces he can't stop. He WANTS it all to have a reasonable explanation so he doesn't have to blow up his life one way or another.

Yeah, I agree with this. I mean, even on a much smaller scale, I've passed people in trouble on the side of the road or a runaway dog on my way to work, and always, even though I ultimately stop to help, my first thought is something like, "Am I sure I saw that? Maybe I didn't see it and can keep going." I think few people really want to disrupt their lives to get involved in outside problems, huge or very small.

I think Pastor Tim wants to believe Elizabeth and Philip. He doesn't want to believe that psycho Soviet killers are in his midst, so he's not looking very hard and is happy to accept what they tell him, which is what Elizabeth and Philip are counting on. Because we know who they are and what they're doing, the con looks obvious. But the self-absorption of most people (and the trusting naivete) is why the con will work at all.

Edited April 16, 2016 by madam magpie

[magemaud]

So Matthew comes to stay with his father (for the weekend, he's not permanently moving home, right?) and within minutes Stan is "See ya in the morning, gotta work all night...and oh yeah, babysit the neighbor's kid..." 

[sistermagpie]

Even if he can hope for witness protection, it will disrupt his established work severely. Would that be a deterrent for him?

 

 

Given what we've seen of him it seems like it would work the opposite way like you described. It would show him that he had to turn them in. He's really into the idea that he would die to do what's right and he's basically already told them that the one thing keeping him from turning them in is the possibility that they're not like that. I would think it would be safer to leave him thinking he has time to sort it out.

 

I also foresee Stan grooming Henry to spy on his parents by presenting it as a game.  Henry loves games (Trivial Pursuit!  Yay!) and technology.

 

 

I've been trying to think about how this would work. Because he can already ask him questions that Henry will answer, like about his father traveling a lot. But the Jennings can also ask Henry things about Stan, if there was anything he could tell. I think if Stan made it obvious he really wanted Henry to spy on his parents Henry wouldn't like it. I mean, this show always shows how shared secrets create intimacy, even if you don't want it. Henry's created intimacy with Stan by confiding in him about his teacher--that's a bit like Paige talking to Pastor Tim. He also then got Stan to tell him about meeting Sandra in return. I think he really likes those shared secrets, but would he feel betrayed if Stan seemed to be using him?

 

Philip finds comfort in his kids and he can relax around them. And yet...he should have noticed Henry's absence just a little sooner. That always bugs me. Our kid is hanging out at the FBI agent's house...again. Henry is so clearly in need of attention - I get that everyone is stressed out but this is essentially parental neglect.

 

 

I just feel like it's exaggerating a bit to say it's parental neglect. They know Henry hangs out with Stan--it's weird that he wants to hang out with an adult but it would be totally normal for him to want to hang out with his friends this much. In this ep we had a scene where Henry was hanging out with Paige and Philip having had dinner with both (with Philip and Paige preparing the dinner together according to Henry) and he was ignoring them for his video game. Then later his dad walked over to get him for dinner and he cheerfully asked if he could have dinner at Stan's instead. I know there's definitely an issue here with Philip becoming so distracted over the seasons, but Stan's house is also a little junior bro-time funhouse. Even when Stan left his house Henry wanted to stay there to hang out with Matthew. I think he feels cool over there. He's had some serious discussions with Stan about sex and romance, but for the most part he seems really into entertainment. I think at this phase of his life he really sees Stan as cooler and more fun than Philip.

 

Also I suspect even though he doesn't know it he's picked up on the new dynamic of his parents and Paige locked in this conspiracy. In the Jennings house Henry is absolutely a child. Everyone sees him as living in a bubble that's removed from their lives. It's funny, now I think of it. When Paige was that age she started focusing on the weird things about her parents and rightfully saw something going on. She didn't want them to be up to something shady, but felt like they were. With Henry it's like he wants to know about the shadier aspects of adult life, like sex, but sometimes it seems like he might not see his parents as being part of it. They're no fun, cancelling Epcot. His mom has no friends. I think he may just see Stan as the more interesting adult to investigate.

 

She'll figure out soon enough that "Clark" doesn't work for that agency he claims to, simply by realizing that their office budget couldn't possibly be that high for one guy to spy on FBI counter-terrorism.

 

 

Martha has known for a long time that he doesn't work for that agency. His cover was blown back in S3. She knows he's a spy. She just doesn't want to know the details.At this point she's not being stupid at all, she's just choosing love and hoping that's her best chance for safety as well.

 

I don't think Stan and Aderholt have permission to hold a Martha stakeout. Doesn't anybody follow rules anymore?

 

 

It seems not. Stan broke the rules and got rewarded for it and now he feels pretty justified in doing whatever he wants. I really do hope that's going to lead to something interesting with Stan as a character. He just seems really subtly encouraged to see himself as the big hero and justified in not much thinking about other people.

 

Paige herself is better protected by having the FBI vet the situation.

 

 

Of course, FBI wouldn't really vet anything. They'd just put her parents in jail.

 

He WANTS it all to have a reasonable explanation so he doesn't have to blow up his life one way or another.

 

 

I feel like he also is really arrogant without realizing it because he chalks it up to him having God on his side. It might be easier to understand if we knew him better (not that I want more time with him) but it seems like the guy loves having power over the family and parents and likes feeling like the one who gets to pass the final Solomon-like judgement. I wouldn't be surprised if he and his wife saw this as God testing him or bringing him these people because he's the one God wants to be there for them. Getting the FBI involved just takes it out of his and God's hands.

 

So Matthew comes to stay with his father (for the weekend, he's not permanently moving home, right?) and within minutes Stan is "See ya in the morning, gotta work all night...and oh yeah, babysit the neighbor's kid..."

 

 

Yeah, the thing is, Stan's relationship with Matthew was a casualty of his undercover work, but the Jennings are both still basically on top of Henry's day to day life in ways Stan has never been with Matthew on the show. I read some comments where people thought Stan intentionally used Henry to his advantage by having him there to make Matthew's arrival less awkward, but to me it feels like that's another way to avoid Matthew. This kid has a lot of valid issues with his father. The Stan who's great at Trivial Pursuit might be cool and fun, but I don't know if that's particularly addressing Matthew's feelings about him. If he was using Henry to grease the wheels with Matthew I think the dynamic would have been more about Stan/Matthew + Henry when it felt more like Stan/Henry + Matthew.

 

It just seems hard for me to believe that it would be a good thing for the estranged kid to arrive for a visit (one that's part of a new effort on his mother's part to bring them together) and find dad with another, younger, easier kid before he leaves for the night. Sandra's the parent in this group who's most consistently present. Paige is going through a terrible time with her parents at the moment, but she certainly is getting closer to them one way or another. For instance, she no longer sees her dad as disengaged like Matthew also saw his dad back in S2.