S04.E03: Experimental Prototype City Of Tomorrow

[AMDG]

At one point Elizabeth was anxious for Phillip to make up with Stan.

Could she be considering defecting as a way of getting out with the family intact?

[PinkRibbons]

I think it's unlikely, but I think there's a chance Paige may be harmed or killed and her parents would be left knowing that Henry is essentially a hostage if they don't do their jobs the way they're told. Two kids means two ways to get to their parents.

 

This would of course be a massive miscalculation on the Centre's part, but if there's one thing both we and the show know, the KGB was prone to a hell of a lot of stupidity. Hell, they've only just admitted that the second-generation illegals program might not work, and that was not a reaction to their first try murdering his entire family.

[sistermagpie]

Second, the scene with the Russian-accented travel agency employee telling Philip about the Epcot trip.

 

 

I've always assumed he's Greek or something, not Russian.

 

I admit I was pretty shocked when by "leaving" Philip meant "back to Russia."  I thought he was pretty much over Russia, he didn't seem to have the romantic attachment that Elizabeth does.

 

 

I don't know how romantic his feelings are, but they even specifically had that episode in S2 where he was called out for homesickness. I don't think he has anything against Russia the country and there are things he misses about it the way you miss your home, even if you didn't have the happiest of childhoods. But I think Philip may also be somebody who carries homesickness with him everywhere, even at home--I think there's even a Russian word for it (toska?). There's definitely things he's miss about the US if he left--I'm don't even mean stuff like full supermarkets but just little pleasant things he enjoys or things like the cherry trees in the spring--but I'll bet there's things he misses about Russia too. Things that give him a general longing more than a specific need for something.

 

One of the things about the story in The Deal (where he said he liked the cold and remembered icicles) is I think it implied a lot of those feelings are just buried in Philip so he doesn't feel anything. It's not that he's over it, it's that he doesn't usually allow himself to think about it anyway.

 

I'm curious what you thought he did mean, just because practically it seemed like the only thing he could have meant to me.

 

They can’t kill Paige. That would betray the show’s central vision. It would be horrible storytelling.

 

 

Also despite some of the big dramatic things that have happened they really don't work on that level. The biggest dramatic things that happen on this show are quiet moments between people in that family. Paige dying would be so devastating it would probably take months for them to stop being so numb they could function well enough to react to it. 

 

But the illegal they had on last week's podcast said he had been discovered due to the Mitrokhin Archive, a vast resource of information from KGB files that the UK got from a defector in 1992 (and presumably shared with the U.S., at least to some degree).

 

 

Oh, I should be clear--I TOTALLY believe that the FBI could accidentally miss an obvious spy. There's tons of stories like that. Look at Kim Philby, protected for years by MI-6 even when MI-5 and many Americans were jumping up and down saying he was a spy. But on this show we're in the pov of the characters being terrified of being outed and having them outed and the FBI just doesn't care I think would just seem silly. As in so many things, you can get away with things in reality you can't in fiction. People have already complained that the FBI isn't competent enough and this would make them seem almost like no threat at all.

 

Plus, like I said, there's the issue of Stan. He's not brushing off that tip.

 

If Paige died by accident (I mean a real accident, even if it happens because her parents weren't around), Philip and Elizabeth wouldn't revolt against the KGB and it would solve the problem with Pastor Tim and his wife, who would be killed five minutes later. So it could work.

 

 

But wouldn't it play exactly like that--a deus ex machina that solves their problems in a completely non-dramatic way? Might as well have Pastor Tim and his wife die in a real accident. At least in that case there'd be the ironic twist of Paige probably suspecting them of it. Seems like the show's intentionally not going for those easier fixes--if they were they could have just killed Pastor Tim before Paige confessed. (And they should be thanking their lucky stars they didn't now because if he'd died his blabbermouth wife would have known everything--and Paige wouldn't even realize he'd told her.)

At one point Elizabeth was anxious for Phillip to make up with Stan.

Could she be considering defecting as a way of getting out with the family intact?

 

 

I don't think Elizabeth would ever consider defecting, but it's still good for them to be on good terms. I always assumed that part of Philip's goal with him was the idea not that he'd accept them as defectors in a friendlier way but that he'd be more sympathetic toward them as a family if they got caught and maybe take personal responsibility for their children. Of course Stan would still care about Paige and especially Henry if he was angry at Philip, but it couldn't hurt.

 

But also, if Stan is angry at Philip he's more likely to be looking for things to justify that anger and that can lead to him interpreting Philip's actions in a more suspicious way and they can't have that. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by sistermagpie

[snowdogs]

A couple people have pointed out that while it's been months for viewers, it's only been days or weeks for the Jennings and that therefore we shouldn't assume story lines are dropped. I may be alone in this, but it would make more sense to me if we were to assume months had passed. Otherwise, it seems as though they keep starting new projects while other projects are still in early stages. Would "real" spies be juggling a Kimmie and a William and a Karen and now a Yung He? On top of their cover jobs and family life?

[Chaos Theory]

Killing Pastor Tim has too many drawbacks and no real upside but making him think *HE* is the danger to Paige by making him think the FBI have been servaling him. He is more an activist then a Pastor and making him a socialist hero neutralizes him and possibly brings Paige back over to their side.

[sistermagpie]

I may be alone in this, but it would make more sense to me if we were to assume months had passed.

 

 

They've had months pass between seasons before, but it doesn't work this season because of the fallout from Paige telling Pastor Tim, Gene's murder and Clark's reveal. 

 

I don't think we're to take all those other things as being in the early stages, though. They all had their own season to get settled and now they're just continuing. (Of course Philip and Elizabeth's workload is pretty huge for just two people, but that's just something we pretty much have to accept, I think.)

[ChromaKelly]

I really think the most realistic option is to kill Paige, although I doubt the show would go there. The children were initially supposed to be not more than props to keep up the whole normal American family rouse. Then the Centre thought they could use the children to be second generation spies. Now that that's not working and Paige is a problem, they need to get rid of her.
I too wonder what happens to the sources when they are no longer needed. Do the spies break up with them? Unfriend? Ghost them? Suddenly get busy?
Count me in as another bored with the Nina storyline. She needs to get back to America. Tired of seeing her in prison.

[curbcrusher]

I am completely unspoiled, but I have to wonder if Young-Hee will become a moral crisis for Elizabeth, if Young-Hee's family is put in danger?  She is the first person in four seasons who seemed like she could be a friend to Elizabeth.  And the fact that she is a three-dimensional character makes her much more of a loss to us and Elizabeth, if it comes to that.

 

I am unspoiled as to the show, but I having lived through 1983, I remember some things that happened. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I think Young-Hee and her family are being introduced to be victims on KAL 007.

[snowdogs]

 

They've had months pass between seasons before, but it doesn't work this season because of the fallout from Paige telling Pastor Tim, Gene's murder and Clark's reveal.

 

Excellent point, sistermagpie. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks.

 

 

[sistermagpie]

I really think the most realistic option is to kill Paige, although I doubt the show would go there. The children were initially supposed to be not more than props to keep up the whole normal American family rouse. Then the Centre thought they could use the children to be second generation spies. Now that that's not working and Paige is a problem, they need to get rid of her.

 

 

I don't see how that's realistic, though. The Centre wanted the kids as props but they know they're actual children. They're not so divorced from reality that they think they can just kill somebody's children and this will cause fewer problems than letting her live. I think that's probably even why we've had scenes showing us that the Centre cares about these kids. In their eyes these are "their" kids too. 

 

Not to mention, the kids are still keeping up the ruse of a normal American family. Having one or both of them die paints a big X on the house as being A-typical.

 

I remember some things that happened. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I think Young-Hee and her family are being introduced to be victims on KAL 007.

 

That seems like too much of a coincidence. Elizabeth befriends a family to get to a source and they happen to all die on a plane the Russians shoot down? Thus probably releasing Elizabeth from culpability in whatever bad things she's doing to them?

 

I too wonder what happens to the sources when they are no longer needed. Do the spies break up with them? Unfriend? Ghost them? Suddenly get busy?

 

 

If it's somebody with whom they have some other alleged relationship yeah, they can probably do all those things. I know in reading a book about undercover cops in the UK they'd go undercover and then start laying out stories for why they were going to disappear (dying parent, deciding to study in France, whatever) and then they'd go.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'll first say that I just love this show!  I'm definitely addicted. When it went off, I felt anxious.  One hour is not enough. 

 

I love the attention to detail.  When they showed Elizabeth with the Mary Kay group, I laughed.  The hairstyles, shoes, hose colors. ......so 80's!  OH, it takes me back.  lol 

 

So, my annoyance with Paige continues. Yes, I realize she is a teen and her brain is not mature, but OMG  The girl is so unreliable, untrustworthy and has no survival skills.  Her dad asked her to placate Pastor Tim.  She says, right, I will and then she doesn't even try.  And she has no loyalty to her parents.  NOW, she's working with Pastor Tim to get get details about their spy job.  I cringed when she ask her parents where they go at night. Really?  She has violated their trust in a major way and now she wants more sensitive information so she can blab some more?  Please.  I get that they held their tongue in order to placate her.  

 

Paige's short memory, lack of devotion to her family and insistence on self destruction makes me wonder if she really is that bright.  I wonder what her reaction would be if The Center took her to a secluded place for a few days and explained how things really work.  Like how people, if necessary,  get whacked, disappear and have their tongues cut out for blabbing.  I wonder if even that would jar her.  She seems to live in an alternate universe.  Short of hypnosis to erase her memory of all that she has learned, I can't see how she would ever be anything, but a huge liability.  The Center must consider Philip and Elizabeth to be VERY valuable to risk sparing Paige's life.  I see no upside to it.  Of course, the downside would be that it would devastate the parents to the point that they would not likely be able to continue on their roles, if they took her out.  I still wish they could explore a boarding school option, but how do you trust her.  She'd be sharing her secrets with roommates and school counselors. 

 

Has anyone considered that the handler got glanders by delivering it to Pastor Tim and his wife?  Maybe that's why the container was opened. Maybe they have it too and are in the hospital already.  Would a local ER be able to diagnose it?  It seems a car accident would make more sense, but I'm just guessing. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[shura]

I still wish they could explore a boarding school option, but how do you trust her.  She'd be sharing her secrets with roommates and school counselors.

 

Well, they do have boarding schools in Russia. Blab away, Paige!

[tennisgurl]

Is it weird that I feel really bad that the Jennings wont get to go to EPCOT? They really need a vacation these days. 

 

I laughed my head off at the chase scene. I love when this show can bust out the occasional bit of comedy, even if its dark comedy. Philip spitting in the guys face just made it even better.

 

I loved Paige's riotous indignation about Pastor Tim telling his wife her secret. You could actually see some Elizabeth in there, but with less killer instinct. She is starting to see that Pastor Tim, is, in fact, a pretty big weirdo. At least, I hope she is. Your reaction to finding out people you know are Russian spies in the middle of the Cold War should not be "call in a parent/pastor meeting in your little church office". That just does not seem normal.   

 

This show has built a lot of good will with me, so I am assuming they are going somewhere with the Nina plot. This has got to tie into other things going on. Its got to! 

 

I frequently wonder about what P & E will do when this all ends (either the show, or the USSR), supposing they both survive. I have always felt that Philip will do better in the long run, because he is naturally very adaptable. But I always thought Elizabeth would have a tough time, especially with the fall of the USSR. But now? She has become more of a Mom/Wife then a follower of the Great Cause. Now that she is less of a true believer, because she is, but now she has different priorities. Where does that leave her? 

Edited April 1, 2016 by tennisgurl

[blixie]

 

I thought they dropped a few anvils in this episode, anvils that made me think Paige is going to die.

 

I didn't even pick up on this so I wouldn't say they were ANVILS, but it makes a lot of sense, because I agree that whatever happens with Pastor Tim/Alice, the bigger issue as Phillip rightfully brought up is what the fuck to do with Paige, we haven't seen much (yet) that would make you think she could be recruited to be a spy, and that and her death or the only two options honestly. She either turns, or she dies, since the Jennings aren't going to go back to Russia, and perhaps her death is what instigates a potential defection/double agent gig.

 

I'd prefer her to live and for them to find a great and believable reason for her to embrace her parents life/ideologies, which potentially Father Tim telling her secret and threatening the lives her parents/family could be it, maybe even end up killing someone herself to protect them? But yeah her dying as collateral damage, from the bio weapon, seems more in line with the tone/style of the show.

[gwhh]

Is Dr. William a American common citizen turncoat OR is he an illegal?

 

Some of the speech in both apartment to P&E was almost identical to some lines in a book by this person:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek

[TimWil]

Ruthie Ann Miles is awesome. (Watch her sing "Something Wonderful" on YouTube and you'll cry) I hope there is more to her than meets the eye. Surely the show wouldn't hire a Tony-winning actress just to play generic "Korean wife of important dude.".

I think there's a LOT more to her than meets the eye. Young-hee, despite the thick accent, is extremely articulate and intuitive. I doubt her considerable smarts would be wasted solely on Mary Kay cosmetics. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she turned out to be a ruthless (pardon my pun) North Korean operative.

Edited April 1, 2016 by TimWil

[Blakeston]

I guess the idea is that Pastor Tim is so convinced of his abilities as a Super Pastor that he thinks he can resolve any issue with his incredible counseling skills. "You're a wreck because your parents are Soviet spies? Bring them to my office! We'll get this all sorted out with a gab session."

The whole "I'm not sure if I should turn you in or not - I suspect that you hurt people" thing doesn't seem to fit with that naivete, though.

Is Dr. William a American common citizen turncoat OR is he an illegal?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek

He's an illegal. There was a reference to it in the season premiere.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Blakeston

[Clanstarling]

Claudia is not the chance taking type...

Anybody else have just the slightest twinge that Claudia thought Gabriel might be slipping and that maybe, just maybe, his exposure wasn't completely accidental? That getting rid of E & P's protector was one more option?

 

And I agree with all who have mentioned their frustrations with Nina's continued presence. I can't see how she's tying into the narrative anymore, and I find myself disengaging every time she's onscreen. In a story that's already this busy, she really feels superfluous.

Agree completely. Nina was interesting in America, but not so much back in the USSR.

Although William running away was funny, the hardest we laughed was after Gaad had his photocopy rant. Everyone was immobile, then Stan's eyes shifted to Martha - not moving any other muscle.

Paige learned a huge lesson in trust and betrayal. I'm not crazy about her, but I think it was a defining moment for her, to know Pastor Tim had violated her trust to a woman she knows is untrustworthy. I think this lesson will stick with her.

Edited April 1, 2016 by clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

Is Dr. William a American common citizen turncoat OR is he an illegal?

 

 

He's an Illegal. They said that outright. Many reviews insist on calling him a turncoat, but I guess it was just a line of dialogue or two and obviously all the Illegals seem American.

 

So, my annoyance with Paige continues.

 

 

 

This post cracked me up about as much as William's attempted escape. LOL! I do love that she sometimes seem to have the short term memory of that guy in Memento. She's in the middle of a mess created in part because she couldn't handle the sensitive information, but instinctively asks for more sensitive information that she'll totally pass on to Pastor Tim once she needs to talk again. It really is hilarious--and totally realistic--the way she's just so unable to not be herself at every second. I remember one reviewer talking about the first 4 eps they'd seen and they were saying how *competent* they showed Paige to be, like she might have the makings of a good spy after all. I have seen no evidence of this yet. 

 

Unlike Henry--note how he not only tells Paige that they're going to EPCOT but brags that he "got" his mom and dad to take them, like the persuasion is part of the satisfaction? Of course, that's not so very different from Paige herself or any other kid--she set up that whole baptism ambush after all. (And wow, I guess this is sort of an echo of that, here's her parents yet again put in a position where they have to act a certain way because Paige has brought Pastor Tim into the house.) Still, it's kind of fun that they stuck in that tiny low-level moment on Henry's part where he thinks he's making the case for EPCOT when he's really falling into his parents' trap and they play it so smoothly you'd never know it. 

 

we haven't seen much (yet) that would make you think she could be recruited to be a spy, and that and her death or the only two options honestly.

 

 

I think the third option is that she's not a spy but she keeps her mouth shut. Which could certainly be leveraged into her doing *something* for the cause later on, but they've presented this third option from the beginning. She was always supposed to have a choice about whether she actually wanted to work for them or not. I assume this is what Philip was hoping for--if they get caught she can plead ignorance and they'll back her up. 

 

Well, they do have boarding schools in Russia. Blab away, Paige!

 

 

Now I'm picturing her being brought into a room with a friendly guy and encouraged to talk about anything she wants. She talks for hours while he nods and says "I understand" and "Yes, you're right." Then she leaves, feeling much better, and we learn they chose a counselor who speaks not a word of English except those two phrases.

 

The whole "I'm not sure if I should turn you in or not - I suspect that you hurt people" thing doesn't seem to fit with that naivete, though.

 

 

It's like a whole 'nother level of naivete. It's like he thinks that not only does he have the spiritual authority to fix all problems with parents, he thinks he has some kind of authority in the practical world as well. Like they're actually going to respect his authority to pass judgment on them. He sees them as supplicants coming to him for mercy instead of the other way around. He doesn't even think to lie about telling his wife. Even when Philip just said, "Your wife?" in a way that would send chills down your spine if you heard it in a dark alley.

 

Which makes me remember Philip again in his priestly-outfit kneeling by Paige's bed--*she's* the one whose mercy they want, not Pastor Tim's, but he's so used to being in that position he doesn't really get his role here. It's like just at the moment he thinks he's been finally let into the Jennings family he's never been more of an outsider. He told Philip to treat Paige more like an adult, and they took a risk and did that and now they have to keep doing it--while he, of course, is free to keep treating her like a kid. (Or at least he thinks he is--he doesn't seem to have enough sense to know that just as Philip has warned Paige not to make Pastor Tim angry, Pastor Tim maybe ought to be trying to keep her from turning on him as well.)

 

Cool too, though, that Pastor Tim's talk about them hurting people *does* have an affect on Paige. She does know that he's right to question what they do. At the same time her betrayal of her secret makes her parents' vehement lying understandable too. There's a lot of wary alliance shifting in the house now. They all sort of know they couldn't trust anybody more than each other, but they also don't trust each other. So they haven't worked out where the trust line ends between parents and kids. They lie...but she blabs.

 

Anybody else have just the slightest twinge that Claudia thought Gabriel might be slipping and that maybe, just maybe, his exposure wasn't completely accidental? That getting rid of E & P's protector was one more option?

 

 

I don't think he is their protector. I think that scene is two handlers talking to each other the way Philip and Elizabeth do--it's okay if he takes the other side of the case and argues it. It doesn't mean he's slipping, he's always done that. Exposing him to Glanders would be completely crazy on her part and a far bigger betrayal of their cause than anything he's done, and there's no reason at all to kill him. For all the murders on this show, the spies really value each other. It's not like a Mafia show or a GoT type situation where they get into deadly beefs with each other or knock each other off out of ambition. They will kill their own, but only in the right kind of situation where it's clear why it's necessary.

 

Paige learned a huge lesson in trust and betrayal. I'm not crazy about her, but I think it was a defining moment for her, to know Pastor Tim had violated her trust to a woman she knows is untrustworthy.

 

 

I agree. I really love this. It was the kind of thing I was hoping for as fallout from her telling him, although I never had any idea how they would do it. It's so wonderfully devastating and dismissive at the same time. Not only did Pastor Tim betray her trust and so give her more of an idea of how fragile the secret is, he doesn't even acknowledge what he's done. As she puts it, he's not even angry at her accusations of betrayal, he's annoyed like she's out of line to even question it. Her parents at least care about hurting her and acknowledge it. They've been careful not to defend themselves too much.

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't see how Paige learned any lesson.  She's still trying to gather evidence on her parents to give to Pastor Tim.  I think that is extremely disloyal and clueless.  I wonder if she does want her parents to go to prison.  Maybe she thinks that she can live with Pastor Tim then. 

 

And if Claudia poisoned Gabriel, would she have left the evidence of the toxin inside his apt?  Leaving his body behind would expose Philip and Elizabeth to danger and she wouldn't want that. 

 

I'm still trying to envision Paige being taken out one way or the other.  Some of the omens make sense, but I just can't believe the show would go there. It's just too dark, IMO. 

[sistermagpie]

I don't see how Paige learned any lesson.  She's still trying to gather evidence on her parents to give to Pastor Tim.  I think that is extremely disloyal and clueless.

 

 

Speaking for myself, the lesson wasn't about Paige learning her lesson to keep her mouth shut or not ask questions (she seems to have real trouble with those concepts). The lesson to me was just that Pastor Tim is not somebody that only exists to do and say what she wants or needs. She thought if she told him the secret he wouldn't or couldn't tell it because her feelings are most important. That's what she learned wasn't true. He's not trustworthy. (Not that she's applied that thinking to herself--she believes that *she* was totally justified in telling the secret because it was her parents fault for telling her something so hard to keep secret!)

 

I honestly don't know how this affected her feelings about fact-finding for Pastor Tim. Yes, she's still asking questions, but I think she wants to know that for herself regardless of what PT wants to know. The trouble is--if she did learn something, would she be able to keep it a secret from him? Her track record so far has been terrible. She could easily feel another rush of positive feelings for Pastor Tim, or guilt about her parents being bad people, and spill again.

 

Heh. Remember last season when Philip was showing her the pictures of the family camping trip? Paige said Henry was scared a bear would eat him. Philip said he never knew that and Paige said, "He made me promise not to tell." And Philip was like... :-/

 

A lot of people at the time showed how it proved how trustworthy Paige was, that she was only telling this secret now when it didn't matter anymore. I was like...hmmm, I think it's actually up to Henry to decide when it doesn't matter anymore, not Paige. Philip, I thought, seemed to find the line threatening. At least that's how it looked to me. She's kept the Sandra Beeman secret, but she seems to find that one to awkward to tell anyway. (And of course she didn't tell on herself about her jaunt to visit Great Aunt Helen or her hitchiking, even though that put them in danger.)

[babyPhat279]

 

It had little to nothing to do with being religious -- that country made every effort to destroy all religious life to the point that most Russian Jews never saw a menorah before they came to the US. It was all about having a J stamped in your passport and suddenly you couldn't get into a school you wanted, have the career you wanted, your kids couldn't play with the neighbors' kids, etc.

 

What I don't understand is, wouldn't that run counter to communist/socialist beliefs? Wouldn't everyone be treated equally, as long as they are willing to drop their religion? Or is this just a case of old racism that never went away?

 

As far as adding new characters, I don't mind so much. I expect we won't see Kimmy anymore, or not very much. The point of that story was to show Phillip's moral crises, which they did, not actually show him possibly having to have a relationship with her. It would turn too many viewers off.

 

I love Young Hee. Please don't ruin her life, Liz.

[magemaud]

Could it be that Pastor Tim and Alice's "accident" is supposed to proceed as planned but since Paige and Henry are now home alone one or both of the Jennings kids get somehow involved in the situation?  

[Clanstarling]

What I don't understand is, wouldn't that run counter to communist/socialist beliefs? Wouldn't everyone be treated equally, as long as they are willing to drop their religion? Or is this just a case of old racism that never went away?

Racial hatreds run deep in every culture. Pogroms against Jews weren't too far in the past, and had gone on for hundreds of years. Muslims in Yugoslavia had lived peacefully with their neighbors for a generation or two under Tito. he died and it was open season against them.

Countries seldom live up to their beliefs and ideals. They are aspirational rather than integral in many cases, and subject to interpretation.

Edited April 2, 2016 by clanstarling

[PinkRibbons]

What I don't understand is, wouldn't that run counter to communist/socialist beliefs? Wouldn't everyone be treated equally, as long as they are willing to drop their religion? Or is this just a case of old racism that never went away?

 

If you believed the Soviet line, everyone was treated equally. Discrimination? Never. Incidentally by the Soviets they also didn't have any kind of drug use or prostitution in their empire. Those things did not exist.

 

(There is no war in Ba Sing Se...I couldn't resist.)

[sistermagpie]

(There is no war in Ba Sing Se...I couldn't resist.)

 

 

LOL! I'm glad you didn't.

 

Totally agree on the ideals. Even in 1776 people in the US were pointing out the freedom and liberty / slaves conflict and there are still people in the US who deny that one.

 

It occurred to me too that this season so far has had a lot of focus on personal relationships and trust in them, the complicated choices of who you can trust even within your circle. Philip goes to EST, which is supposed to be honest, and he does reveal things there, albeit in a censored form. He tells the truth to Elizabeth, who wouldn't share it. His friendship with Sandra seems to actually be a good one in part because she is trustworthy and so is he, within those confines. She encouraged him to tell Elizabeth, but didn't tell on him. He didn't tell Stan she was at the sex seminar.

 

Stan considers it a betrayal that Philip even went near her without telling him. Tori considered telling on Philip to be something she owed to Stan.

 

P & E trusted Paige with info and she told on them. She trusted Pastor Tim, who told his wife. That situation also has the added complication that she really didn't tell him things as a friend, but also in his professional capacity as a pastor. Personally, I would totally consider it a breach of trust that he told his wife. There are many situations in which you would not be surprised if your friend told their spouse something and might trust that it would go no further than that because the spousal relationship works that way. In Pastor Tim's case, though, people are coming to him as a pastor and I doubt he's warned them that he considers his wife part of the position. I imagine they see him more like a therapist who isn't supposed to tell your business to their spouse. (At least not in an uncensored way where they use your name and details etc.) Alice must know tons of stuff about parishioners they don't know she knows.

 

Stan and Henry's relationship is known, but Stan so far hasn't told anything to Philip Henry would find embarrassing. He would probably tell if he was doing something dangerous, and if he and Philip are friends again he actually might tell him things with the understanding that Henry wouldn't know he told.

 

Elizabeth and Philip are now all about lying to Paige again. But Paige is also I think understanding that impulse to lie when applied to Henry.

 

What's kind of interesting about it is they've always dealt with this stuff, but the way it's framed now is different than S1. Back then the biggest example was Elizabeth's secret relationship with Gregory which Gregory himself made a point of using as proof that she didn't love or trust Philip. In Elizabeth's telling it wasn't really about that, but Gregory not only enjoyed describing how her "real self" hated being married to Philip, I always remember him making a pointed remark about Robert as well. That was the guy from the pilot who had the secret wife. Philip felt loyalty to him because he said he was his friend and Gregory said that since the guy hadn't told Philip he was married they really weren't friends (meaning whatever relationship he thought he had with Elizabeth, too, was one-sided and in his head).

 

It's interesting that they moved from that more simplistic view of secrets and trust to all these more complicated situations.

[dr pepper]

I think Nina will survive. I think in a couple of years Arkady will be allowed to go home and retire. After all, his crime was getting victimized by his own staff member. I think Nina is actually being groomed to run the techie gulag, she just needs to have a few impulses curbed.

[dr pepper]

On a completely separate note: when Young He gave her bit about "the makeup i used to use, even from a beauty parlor, makes orientals look green, but Mary Kay has something for every complexion", it seemed like something out of an infomercial.

[Dowel Jones]

I think travel agents might be even a popular cover business for spies.

 

I have this mental image of every. single. travel agency in DC is a front for some country's spy network.  And they are all traveling on their center's dime.  Except the CIA, of course.  They're still paying full retail.

[SunnyBeBe]

Upthread someone pointed out that Stan shared his suspicions about Martha with his co-worker near the hidden recording device.  Please refresh my memory.  Was the recording device planted into the copier? And was it planted after the pen in Gaad's office was discovered?  I recall the scenes where the Russians thought it was boring to listen to the stuff and that it would not reveal much, but I have forgotten the details of where and when it was planted. I do recall that Elizabeth and Philip broke into the copy repair shop and implanted it, right?

[Inquisitionist]

Philip planted the recording device in the mail robot when it was in for repairs after Gaad (I think) beat it up out of frustration.  Martha had told Clark where it was being worked on.  I'm not aware of a recording device in the copy machine.  The issue with that machine is that copies are being made without logging in -- again Martha's work for Clark.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Inquisitionist

[Umbelina]

http://previously.tv/the-americans/hello-youve-reached-unlucky-old-lady-inc/

 

Yes, it was after the pen, but in the Mail Robot, not the copier.  In an incredible episode.  Page down to the section about Betty if you want to skip the rest.  It catches whatever conversation happens around it, but then the KGB has to listen endlessly hoping for a bit of information.

 

The copier is simply about security.  Frankly, Gaad should have been much more irritated, or at least put a camera over it.  He knows he had a leak, and I don't think he'd assume that because one leak seems plugged (the suicide) he's out of the woods. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh yeah!  That's right.  The mail robot!  Thanks.

[TimWil]

I think Nina will survive. I think in a couple of years Arkady will be allowed to go home and retire. After all, his crime was getting victimized by his own staff member. I think Nina is actually being groomed to run the techie gulag, she just needs to have a few impulses curbed.

I just don't see this happening. I think Nina will be shot dead very soon.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that Young-hee is either a North Korean or Chinese operative. And she's VERY BAD NEWS. I remember seeing a documentary on how the North Koreans were always extremely keen to acquire biological weapons. They would then test them

out on entire famililes.

Edited April 3, 2016 by TimWil

[Umbelina]

I honestly didn't think she would be, since they are leaving out

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007the shoot down of KAL 007

, but now that you mention it, it would be a really interesting twist.  Elizabeth is already bonding (as much as she can) with her first "girlfriend" another woman living away from her country, so I thought that would be enough, and that the plan is something to do with one of her family members.  It might be very cool to have her be a spy as well though.

 

One thing is sure, it will be good, this show never disappoints.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I assumed the point of Young Hee (well, part of it) is that it's going to make Elizabeth feel about work like Philip does for once. She'll care about this woman, identify with her somewhat like with Betty, but this time she'll also think about her family. That'll make it hard for her to hurt them for the cause. Nothing about her says bad news to me. I think she's exactly who Elizabeth thinks she is--and she knows everything about her since she no doubt researched her to use her.

Edited April 3, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Clanstarling]

I honestly didn't think she would be, since 

they are leaving out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007the shoot down of KAL 007,

Did the showrunners say something about

leaving out KAL 007

? We haven't gotten to September yet, though I'm not entirely sure what date it is now, just that it's sometime during the school year.

Though I think it's more that

her husband is the target (whover the wine guy is, anyway), if Yung-hee is a spy herself, I could see it coming into play after the Russians down the flight - pitting Yung-Hee and Elizabeth against each other. Or, alternatively, that the downing of KAL 007 was the end result of what Elizabeth is doing right now.

But as you said, the show does not disappoint, and I'm sure it will be more nuanced than my theories.

Edited April 4, 2016 by radishcake

[sistermagpie]

Did the showrunners say something about leaving out KAL 007? We haven't gotten to September yet, though I'm not entirely sure what date it is now, just that it's sometime during the school year.

 

 

It's March 1983 on the show.

The showrunners did mention they weren't doing KAL 007.

 

Though I think it's more that her husband is the target (whover the wine guy is, anyway), if Yung-hee is a spy herself, I could see it coming into play after the Russians down the flight - pitting Yung-Hee and Elizabeth against each other. Or, alternatively, that the downing of KAL 007 was the end result of what Elizabeth is doing right now.

 

 

But these things are really OOC for the show based on the stories they usually tell. It would take a lot of crazy machinations to get Elizabeth to down that flight much less have Elizabeth and Young Hee fighting over it.

[TimWil]

You're really taking Young-hee at face value, sistermagpie? I'm surprised. I'm already scared to death of her. Ruthie Lee Simmons is playing her with such charm and intellect. I think she will play an enormous role in the latter part of the season and it won't simply be as a victim or Elizabeth's mirror image. The show has already had on Cubans as well as Russians. I think it was only a matter of time before they'd bring in the Asian communist element, too.

[sistermagpie]

You're really taking Young-hee at face value, sistermagpie? I'm surprised. I'm already scared to death of her.

 

 

Why not?  The show doesn't introduce people as ordinary civilians and then surprise you with them being a spy for the most part. I'm sure she will be a major part of the season, but as a person Elizabeth is manipulating to get to a source, not as a secret agent that was secretly targeting Elizabeth when Elizabeth was thinking she was targeting her. (She has a whole family accounted for and her brother seems like he even might have security clearance.) It’s almost a comedy sketch.

 

What’s great is even at face value she’s obviously got a lot going on. She’s not just a bland Mary Kay saleswoman and mom. That would never have gotten Elizabeth’s attention.

 

This is the first time Elizabeth has connected with somebody in the US as an actual friend. That's much more important, imo, than her being a spy from some other country. Being a victim or a mirror image is what the most important characters often are.

 

Elizabeth’s had lots of interactions with other spies but she usually avoids real connection to civilians. That’s new for her, and it’s coming just at a time when she’s questioning her cause vs. family balance herself.

[Clanstarling]

It's March 1983 on the show.

The showrunners did mention they weren't doing KAL 007.

 

 

But these things are really OOC for the show based on the stories they usually tell. It would take a lot of crazy machinations to get Elizabeth to down that flight much less have Elizabeth and Young Hee fighting over it.

Thanks for updating me. I haven't paid much attention to the show runners.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that Elizabeth would personally down the flight. I agree those machinations would be crazy. My speculation, was that if Yung-Hee were indeed a spy, that the end result the information gathering Elizabeth is doing for Mother Russia might ultimately lead to the USSR decision to down the plane.

But, since the showrunners said they aren't dealing with that flight, then it's a moot point anyway.

Edited April 4, 2016 by clanstarling

[Umbelina]

My apologies!  I should have spoiler tagged that.  Dang.  I went back and did, but clanstarling if you see this, can you spoiler tag yours too, since you quoted me?

 

Ooops.

[GreenScreenFX]

This is the first time Elizabeth has connected with somebody in the US as an actual friend. That's much more important, imo, than her being a spy from some other country. Being a victim or a mirror image is what the most important characters often are.

I don't see a friendship at all! She is a mark of some sort.

[Umbelina]

I think she's just a mark too, but I wouldn't call her a friend really, I doubt she will become her Martha, but it's nice to see her have someone to talk to semi-honestly.  However, if she is a foreign agent as well, it could also be interesting.

[GreenScreenFX]

I didn't see an even remote friendship....its a long con

[Darren]

First off: I absolutely love this show. Best show in the history of television in my mind - and I'm hard to please. :)

 

That said, there's just one thing that's getting to me: Philip's motivation.

 

In episode 1 he seriously considered going to the FBI and making a deal. That option seems considerably better now, when you think about where things now stand with Paige and such. And yet, he keeps going? And yet, he even talks about going back to Russia?

 

I understand that the one thing keeping him with the KGB may be his legit love for Elizabeth. He knows she's not ready to abandon the cause - yet. And doing so would drive a, perhaps irreconcilable, wedge between them.

 

But still... I expect to see more turmoil in him - especially as innocents die by his hands over and over again.

 

Bottom line: Something about his motivation feels off.

 

If nothing else, we could use an episode with a back-story that explains some motivation of his that has, as of yet, not been mentioned. Give me something, please. Something to understand why he would be stomaching all this at this point.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Darren

[SlackerInc]

I think Nina will survive. I think in a couple of years Arkady will be allowed to go home and retire. After all, his crime was getting victimized by his own staff member. I think Nina is actually being groomed to run the techie gulag, she just needs to have a few impulses curbed.

 

I'm assuming that when you say "Arkady", who is the current Resident in the U.S., you mean Vasili, whom Arkady replaced.

 

I've seen multiple comments that imply the place where Nina and Vasili is is a prison, and that Vasili is there to be punished.  I don't think this is right.  Nina even says explicitly that it is not a prison.  My impression is that it is a top-secret, high value scientific facility doing research on stealth technology (and perhaps other things of military value).  Vasili was going to be imprisoned, probably executed, when they thought he was guilty of selling secrets.  When they learned he had been framed, he was exonerated; but since they had already hired Arkady to take the job, and Vasili was fairly late in his career, they made up for it by giving him the consolation prize of running this research facility.  I think this is a fairly prestigious post, even if it's a step down from Resident.

[dr pepper]

I'm assuming that when you say "Arkady", who is the current Resident in the U.S., you mean Vasili, whom Arkady replaced.

 

 

Yes, my bad.

[Clanstarling]

My apologies!  I should have spoiler tagged that.  Dang.  I went back and did, but clanstarling if you see this, can you spoiler tag yours too, since you quoted me?

 

Ooops.

Thank you, whoever put in the spoiler tags for me. I did catch one that indirectly referred to the subject, so I tagged that one as well. Edited April 4, 2016 by clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

By Darren

First off: I absolutely love this show. Best show in the history of television in my mind - and I'm hard to please. :)

 

 

 

I really love the show too.  It's so underrated, IMO.  It gives me lots of reasons to think.  I wonder if that is why many viewers don't care for it. lol 

Darren also wrote:

In episode 1 he seriously considered going to the FBI and making a deal. That option seems considerably better now, when you think about where things now stand with Paige and such. And yet, he keeps going? And yet, he even talks about going back to Russia?

 

 

 

 

Regarding your question about Philip's motivation in staying in his role....I wonder if he has learned things at EST that has given him pause to leave the US or his current role. While the work he has done at EST is painful, it may have caused him to have hope and to believe that one day he and his family may have an authentic life, especially since Elizabeth may eventually get on board too.

 

 He also knows that the possibility of he and his family turning would be very dangerous and he and Elizabeth, as well as his kids would not likely survive.  The Soviets would eventually find them in their new identities, even if they were lucky enough to secure that kind of deal, and take them down.  And if he and his family returned to Russia, what would they have there?  Certainly, their lifestyle would be different and would they even be safe there?  I have no idea.  Does anyone know what happened to spies like P and E when they returned back home?  Did they get a cover life there?  How would they explain their kids speaking English only with American accents?  I just can't envision it.  I'm trying to envision Paige in a reprogramming facility.....lol.  

 

I won't go as far to say that he cares about Martha and knows that Martha would likely go to prison for life, if he tried to turn and make a deal.  Of course, many at the FBI would go down too, including Stan.  Would anyone believe he lived next door to the Americans for years and had no clue?  And even if he didn't have a clue, Stan would still go down due to incredible incompetence.  (I can't say I would take issue with that.)