S02.E04: The Great Debate

[Tara Ariano]

After Cait is challenged to control herself during the Democratic debates, the women are challenged by a visit to Cait's alma mater, a conservative, Christian college in Iowa.

[Primetimer]

And not even a stop at a Democratic debate in Des Moines can start the yelling up again...at least for now.

Read the story

[TomGirl]

Caitlyn, for the millionth time, these are WOMEN, not girls, and ESPECIALLY not "my girls." Yuck!

[rck]

It bothered me that with all the talk about the university being conservative and church-based, they didn't mention that the church the school is associated with, The Community of Christ (formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, does accept LGBT people and affirms same-sex marriages, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality#Community_of_Christ) so it's not like they're going to Bob Jones University or BYU.

 

I don't know what the campus climate is like, but the students certainly seemed receptive.

 

Even the LDS church itself, which genuinely is very conservative, will baptize transgender people and accepts them as members of the church. There are restrictions (someone who has undergone transgender surgery may not participate in certain temple rites, for example), but it is possible to be transgender and in good standing with the church, something which is not true of someone in a homosexual relationship. Interestingly, there has even been at least one approved temple marriage between a man and a transgender woman, though this occurred back in the 70's.

[GaT]

I think Ella is adorable.

[TomGirl]

Isn't she?!

http://www.glamour.com/entertainment/blogs/obsessed/2016/03/ella-giselle-i-am-cait

[jenrising]

Gah, this show infuriates me. Because I'm super interested in everyone on the bus, except for queen of the world, condescending, close-minded, arrogant Caitlyn. 

 

Also: college students look like toddlers when did I get so old????

Edited March 28, 2016 by jenrising

[itsadryheat]

Interesting story about Kate's daughter being a high level muckety muck in the church of scientology.

[Febgirl]

What I found interesting was that when Hillary Clinton, praised Caitlyn on the work she was doing, her response was some off the cuff " oh yes my girls are great" which struck me as odd.

 

Also, I'm wondering if  Jenny B is ghostwriting these speeches Caitlyn is giving on the road.

[lgprimes]

Was anybody else holding their breath when that 13 year old went up to Cait? I was so afraid she was going to say something offensive! I have to give her props though, she was encouraging and didn't give bad advice! Though the "good luck kid" at the end did make me laugh.

[ClareWalks]

I couldn't help but think that 13-year-old should have talked to Kate Bornstein instead. I think she would have given better advice.

[Febgirl]

I couldn't help but think that 13-year-old should have talked to Kate Bornstein instead. I think she would have given better advice.

    Indeed.  Her It Gets Better video is one of the best, and a must watch for anyone who's going through it as a young person.  

[Febgirl]

 

 

 

  deleting....looks like a double post.

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Febgirl

[HumblePi]

Caitlyn Jenner is really beginning to disgust me to no end. Let's just for a moment imagine that Caitlyn Jenner wasn't a celebrity and wasn't part of that 'top 1% of Americans that hold 99% of the wealth' as she stated herself. (Incidentally, she's dead wrong about being in the top 1%) Does anyone believe that she would be as outspoken and champion the causes of the transgender communities around the US? I sure don't. Caitlyn is privileged. She isn't living as a black transgender in the South side of Chicago. She lives in Malibu and has all the money she needs to pour into facial reconstruction, hormone therapy, body re-imaging and designer clothes. I think that Jennifer Boylan said it best when she said that Caitlyn is still living in a 'pink cloud'. For Caitlyn, it's all about her outward appearance and how the world sees her. Caitlyn is an absolute beast of a narcissistic human. There's no cause that's above her own cause....which is her own personal pursuit of fame, wealth and celebrity. It's much easier for her to be accepted since she's a celebrity and multimillionaire. Caitlyn has never been on the other side of that fence and she's totally unable to relate to it. Her biggest fear is rejection. The desire Caitlyn had that the other 'girls' don't begin any type of difficulty or discord with her admirers at her college alma mater really makes my point. She's more worried about how she'll be received by her former college coaches than about any issues the Christian college students and faculty might possibly have with transgenders. And she made it clear to the girls that she did not want any negativity regarding any issues they may encounter there.

 

At the debate Caitlyn's generalized and vague statement about Hillary Clinton "she's just like Obama, he doesn't really appreciate this country" was just an ignorant, clueless, opinionated flat statement that she repeated by rote. (Rote learning is a memorization technique based on repetition. The idea is that one will be able to quickly recall the meaning of the material the more one repeats it. Some of the alternatives to rote learning include meaningful learning, associative learning, and active learning.)

 

When the debate was going on, the debate moderator asked'  "Senator Sanders, in a previous debate you said that the greatest threat to National security was climate change".  Kate Bornstein then turned to Cait and asked "what do you think about that?" Caitlyn replied with a blank stare "No, I don't understand that. He's an idiot". Caitlyn Jenner has always spoken politically in this manner of blanket statements without substantive or quantitative information. She's narrow-minded, prejudiced (yes prejudiced), and really doesn't want to take the time or trouble to know what she's talking about when it comes to politics. Even worse than being ignorant politically, she's resistant to learning the truth and facts from the others who have lived life as transgenders for many many years. They have walked the walk and talked the talk for most of their adult lives. If anyone should just shut up and listen it's Caitlyn, but instead she postulates and preaches something of which she's very unfamiliar with.

 

Here's a graph that can put the top 1% of wealth into perspective.

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by HumblePi

[Artsda]

Kate hasn't seen her daughter since she was 9? Scientology or not, she has rights to fight for visitation. I understand the child being an adult and choosing to not have contact with her mom, but as a child she had no say. It was up to Kate when she was 9.

 

Are we supposed to believe that the secret service didn't know this group wasn't in the lobby of the hotel with the cameras? LOL Bill has a secret service detail. 

[Kromm]

I've come to really dislike that "pink cloud" expression in regards to Caitlyn Jenner, HumblePi, because I think it gives her an excuse, an escape hatch for responsibility, as well as a vain hope for the few people who'd care that she can be any different. IMO even if she gained more direct knowledge of the rest of the world, transgender or not, her belief system is too entrenched to be some temporary mental and emotional construct, some pink cloud, that's going to float away and leave a new woman behind some day.

[HumblePi]

Kate hasn't seen her daughter since she was 9? Scientology or not, she has rights to fight for visitation. I understand the child being an adult and choosing to not have contact with her mom, but as a child she had no say. It was up to Kate when she was 9.

 

Are we supposed to believe that the secret service didn't know this group wasn't in the lobby of the hotel with the cameras? LOL Bill has a secret service detail. 

After watching Leah Remini talk about escaping from Scientology and the strict rules they hold for members that leave the church, it's very understandable why Kate Bornstein hasn't seen her daughter in 34 years. Once a member departs or is expelled, they are instantly dead to the Church of Scientology and all its members including any relatives who remain there including mother, father, children, etc.

 

Kate Bornestein was a staff member in the Church of Scientology for twelve years. And in Kate Bornstein's own words "My daughter, my ex-wife and my grandkids are all members of the institutionalized Church of Scientology. By canonical law, they’re not allowed to talk with me because I am “evil.”

 

One other piece of information about Kate Bornstein, she's a very ill woman.

This is from her blog;

"I was first diagnosed with lung cancer on September 24, 2012. I had surgery to remove the upper lobe of my right lung. The surgical team tried real hard, but they didn’t get it all. Normally, I would’ve gone straight on to chemo and radiation. But a big deal medical oncologist determined that there was no chemo that would work on me. If I wanted to live, he told me, it had to be by radiation alone. To be fair, the doctor was confronted by a challenge in me. I’ve got a whacky health status and, an immune system compromised by chronic lymphocytic leukemia that was first diagnosed in 1996. Plus, I’ve got a body grown on testosterone, that’s now running on estrogen. Genital conversion surgery aside, I’m minus a gall bladder, half a liver, and 12 inches of intestine. I’ve got cervical dystonia and scoliosis. I’m a rambling wreck!"

[lgprimes]

"I couldn't help but think that 13-year-old should have talked to Kate Bornstein instead. I think she would have given better advice."

Sorry don't know the way to officially quote, but I agree! This show is turning me into a Kate Bornstein fan girl. Her story is full of hardships which would make some people withdraw into themselves, and there she is traveling, patiently teaching, and seeming to enjoy herself all along the way.

Edited March 28, 2016 by lgprimes

[HumblePi]

I've come to really dislike that "pink cloud" expression in regards to Caitlyn Jenner, HumblePi, because I think it gives her an excuse, an escape hatch for responsibility, as well as a vain hope for the few people who'd care that she can be any different. IMO even if she gained more direct knowledge of the rest of the world, transgender or not, her belief system is too entrenched to be some temporary mental and emotional construct, some pink cloud, that's going to float away and leave a new woman behind some day.

I think that Jennifer Boylan's description of Caitlyn Jenner was extremely pertinent particularly in the beginning when she was openly and publicly transformed on the exterior as a female.  Caitlyn was in what Boylan's terms the 'pink cloud' " which is this place of euphoria and happiness ... and that's good, but it also means you can be a little bit blind to things other than yourself." And that's precisely what Caitlyn has exhibited with her obvious ignorance of politics as it affects the LBGT community. Once the haze of the excitement of being able to put on her makeup and fix her long hair while wearing only the best designer clothes lifts, there might be a genuinely proactive Caitlyn Jenner emerge. One that's not as focused on her exterior persona but rather one that's more focused on the extreme difficulties facing that community of transpersons.

Edited March 28, 2016 by HumblePi

[telemachus2]

Knowing zilch re gender identity issues, I've been pleasantly surprised by this series, & dare I say, am becoming (I hope) at least a little more educated. I'm a Baby Boomer, never bothered with Kardashians (other than papa as OJ's pal) & remember Bruce Jenner as Olympic champ & Wheaties box hero - am truly in awe that she "came out" (sorry,don't know how to phrase it) as a transgender person FINALLY. I really think it's harder to make such a life-altering & (sadly) unpopular switch in the very public eye, much less as a 65 yr old, rock-ribbed Republican product of a Mormon (??) college. I was impressed by the reception from the college students & staff - not what I expected at all! Times are slowly changing, thank goodness.

Cait obviously has endless financial & social advantages over other transgender people. I am foolishly (?) optimistic that if she really maintains off-camera friendships with the women on the bus, she (& I) will become much more educated, open-minded, & pro-active. Or she could take her $$$ & go back to golf, I guess (maybe not in N. Carolina...)

Edited March 28, 2016 by 17wheatthins
Adjective usage

[iwasish]

After watching Leah Remini talk about escaping from Scientology and the strict rules they hold for members that leave the church, it's very understandable why Kate Bornstein hasn't seen her daughter in 34 years. Once a member departs or is expelled, they are instantly dead to the Church of Scientology and all its members including any relatives who remain there including mother, father, children, etc.

 

Kate Bornestein was a staff member in the Church of Scientology for twelve years. And in Kate Bornstein's own words "My daughter, my ex-wife and my grandkids are all members of the institutionalized Church of Scientology. By canonical law, they’re not allowed to talk with me because I am “evil.”

 

One other piece of information about Kate Bornstein, she's a very ill woman.

This is from her blog;

"I was first diagnosed with lung cancer on September 24, 2012. I had surgery to remove the upper lobe of my right lung. The surgical team tried real hard, but they didn’t get it all. Normally, I would’ve gone straight on to chemo and radiation. But a big deal medical oncologist determined that there was no chemo that would work on me. If I wanted to live, he told me, it had to be by radiation alone. To be fair, the doctor was confronted by a challenge in me. I’ve got a whacky health status and, an immune system compromised by chronic lymphocytic leukemia that was first diagnosed in 1996. Plus, I’ve got a body grown on testosterone, that’s now running on estrogen. Genital conversion surgery aside, I’m minus a gall bladder, half a liver, and 12 inches of intestine. I’ve got cervical dystonia and scoliosis. I’m a rambling wreck!"

So Kate, herself was a scientologist? Interesting. I wonder if she knew that by transitioning she would most likely lose her daughter? 

I thought that the chanting of the one picketers voice we heard at the debate might have been dubbed in. It was the same sentence with the same inflection in her voice. When Cait approached her and put her hand on her shoulder, she had the creepiest smile on her face.

 

Would it have killed Caitlyn to sit and listen to the speeches and just keep her mouth shut. I did like the fact that Zachary called it on Cait being star struck by Hillary. If she's such a liar, and so ineffectual why did Cait feel the need to approach her with such a big smile and greeting and make sure she had her picture taken with her?

Bill looked less enthused to meet Cait.

[politichick]

LOL Bill has a secret service detail. 

All former presidents do.

[maraleia]

Here's the thing. I believe that Caitlyn still has residual affects from being dyslexic and doesn't spend much time reading anything which means she is by default woefully uneducated about a variety of thing. She instead relies on what she see's on TV or hears from her rich LA friends and that's why she is politically conservative. She demonstrated that fact perfectly during this episode.

[Kromm]

I think that Jennifer Boylan's description of Caitlyn Jenner was extremely pertinent particularly in the beginning when she was openly and publicly transformed on the exterior as a female.  Caitlyn was in what Boylan's terms the 'pink cloud' " which is this place of euphoria and happiness ... and that's good, but it also means you can be a little bit blind to things other than yourself." And that's precisely what Caitlyn has exhibited with her obvious ignorance of politics as it affects the LBGT community. Once the haze of the excitement of being able to put on her makeup and fix her long hair while wearing only the best designer clothes lifts, there might be a genuinely proactive Caitlyn Jenner emerge. One that's not as focused on her exterior persona but rather one that's more focused on the extreme difficulties facing that community of transpersons.

Well maybe. But I don't buy it.

 

"Pink Cloud" ignores/dismisses Caitlyn's manipulative side and re-interprets all of her behavior towards ignorance and excitement. It treats her like some big puppy excited by a new chew toy rather than as a real human being who hired image consultants, lawyers and P.R. people to get her awards and attempt to build her an empire based on her being (at the point) some kind of embodiment of a Transgender Superhero. That stuff, that progression of events, from news leaks, to a pre-emptive contracting of a reality show, to well planned interviews on TV and major cover stories, to awards arranged by image consultants and lawyers, was no accident. It was all a deliberate attempt to put herself on top, "in charge", as an icon. It wasn't driven by misunderstandings and enthusiasm, it was driven by greed, hubris and gloryhounding. 

In other words, I think it's an excuse, put forth by people who were taken in, or who gave into their own need to promote themselves, to justify associating with her. Blame it on a pink cloud, that may or may not exist, but even if it did certainly isn't responsible for the worst of Caitlyn's behavior. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Kromm

[iwasish]

What was Cait complaining about with Obamacare? Something about having to pay 450 thousand dollars for it even though she doesn't use it?

[RHJunkie]

Kate Bornstein is such a beautiful human being. She exemplifies someone who treats others the way she hopes to be treated. If this show would go on without Cait, I would absolutely love it. 

 

Cait was annoying as usual. She thinks she's learning but I'm not sure how much she really is. Her side comments during the debate were disappointing but expected. Her wealth and status allow her to continue to look at the world through her privileged lens. There's quite the irony that Cait feels that Democrats don't care about the country because their platform includes more than just wealth and economy. Their platforms includes social issues that while may not affect her personally because she's among the rich, it affects her brothers and sisters in her community but she still fails to see that. 

[iwasish]

Here's the thing. I believe that Caitlyn still has residual affects from being dyslexic and doesn't spend much time reading anything which means she is by default woefully uneducated about a variety of thing. She instead relies on what she see's on TV or hears from her rich LA friends and that's why she is politically conservative. She demonstrated that fact perfectly during this episode.

She's been giving motivational speeches for decades and was highly in demand prior to this transition. No reason to think she can't easily memorize her speeches prior to her appearances now. IMO, she's hesitant and comes across as unsure of herself because what's she's saying and what she really believes deep inside are somewhat at odds. She complained about having to pay huge sums due to Obama Care, so i find it difficult to imagine she'd be happy about her tax dollars paying to subsidize the trans community when they "should just get a job and not become dependent on the dole"

[millennium]

"Pink Cloud" ignores/dismisses Caitlyn's manipulative side and re-interprets all of her behavior towards ignorance and excitement. It treats her like some big puppy excited by a new chew toy rather than as a real human being who hired image consultants, lawyers and P.R. people to get her awards and attempt to build her an empire based on her being (at the point) some kind of embodiment of a Transgender Superhero. That stuff, that progression of events, from news leaks, to a pre-emptive contracting of a reality show, to well planned interviews on TV and major cover stories, to awards arranged by image consultants and lawyers, was no accident. It was all a deliberate attempt to put herself on top, "in charge", as an icon. It wasn't driven by misunderstandings and enthusiasm, it was driven by greed, hubris and gloryhounding. 

In other words, I think it's an excuse, put forth by people who were taken in, or who gave into their own need to promote themselves, to justify associating with her. Blame it on a pink cloud, that may or may not exist, but even if it did certainly isn't responsible for the worst of Caitlyn's behavior. 

 

 

FWIW, I regard the "pink cloud" excuse as an enabler's rationalization for Jenner's year-long streak of bad behavior.  What next?   She has affluenza?  Oh wait, that's already been suggested in so many words.

 

The "pink cloud" is right up there with Jenner's trademarked excuse: "I still have a lot to learn" -- which she trots out every damn time she says/does something the rest of us find objectionable.

 

Surprise, surprise, she did it again this week:

 

 

 

Caitlyn Jenner Meets Hillary Clinton and Strives to Become an Even Better Role Model

Jenner admits she still has a lot to learn.

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/03/caitlyn-jenner-hillary-clinton-meet

 

I'm amazed she hasn't trademarked that phrase by now, along with that mendacious throwaway line of hers, "I just represent myself."

 

But as long as there's money to be made, and as long as opportunists like Jennifer Boylan regard Jenner as a means to an end, there will be people publicly absolving Jenner every time she offends someone -- or plows into the back of someone's car.

 

Personally, I find the "pink cloud" rationale to be insulting to transgender people.   It suggests that we become airheads and bimbos following transition and makes the whole process seem, in a way, like the advent of a second childhood.   What employer will be reassured that a transitioning or transitioned employee will be as responsible and effective in their position if they start reading about "pink clouds?"   Who will take our desire to transition seriously when the "pink cloud" makes it sound like we're high on hairspray and nail polish fumes?

 

It also tends to solidify the public's suspicion of us: that we are pathologically obsessed with the superficial aspects of womanhood: hair, clothes, make-up, going shopping, etc.

 

In a less direct manner, it's also insulting to all women in that it diminishes womanhood as being no deeper  than a fucking makeover.   

 

To hear this "pink cloud" nonsense gushing from the mouth of Jennifer Boylan only convinces me further that in some ways she is as detrimental to the transgender cause as Jenner herself.

Edited March 29, 2016 by millennium

[bichonblitz]

What was Cait complaining about with Obamacare? Something about having to pay 450 thousand dollars for it even though she doesn't use it?

If you are self employed/self insured, then Obamacare determines how much your premiums will be according to your income. They wealthy pay exorbitant premiums, and the average chump like me that is self employed pay out the ass as well. It's not a good system. I can not afford the insurance that I am told I have to have with no choice because if I don't enroll, the government will penalize me at the end of the year. 

All of the elective plastic surgery Cait has had isn't covered. That's probably what she meant when she said she doesn't use it. 

[iwasish]

If you are self employed/self insured, then Obamacare determines how much your premiums will be according to your income. They wealthy pay exorbitant premiums, and the average chump like me that is self employed pay out the ass as well. It's not a good system. I can not afford the insurance that I am told I have to have with no choice because if I don't enroll, the government will penalize me at the end of the year.

All of the elective plastic surgery Cait has had isn't covered. That's probably what she meant when she said she doesn't use it.

Thanks for the info. I'm employed by county government. We USED to have fabulously free medical, dental and prescription.... I'm now paying about 5k a year for the same coverage. Sucks, but at least when I retire in a few years, I will qualify for free health care. I consider myself lucky cause family coverage based on salary level is running 11k or more.

Regardless 450k is obscene.

[RHJunkie]

If you are self employed/self insured, then Obamacare determines how much your premiums will be according to your income. They wealthy pay exorbitant premiums, and the average chump like me that is self employed pay out the ass as well. It's not a good system. I can not afford the insurance that I am told I have to have with no choice because if I don't enroll, the government will penalize me at the end of the year. 

All of the elective plastic surgery Cait has had isn't covered. That's probably what she meant when she said she doesn't use it. 

I had no idea that was how Obamacare worked. I'm Canadian...I guess I figured that it worked the same way it works here. That's interesting that people pay into it like an insurance. I thought it was a matter of allocating a percentage of tax money. 

[millennium]

Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, I have health insurance that I wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.   I paid about $450/mo in the first year and wasn't able to see my longtime doctor anymore, but this year many improvements in programs have been made, bugs have been ironed out, and the cost has dropped dramatically.   And I was able to return to my regular doctor.

 

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) also makes it possible for people with pre-existing conditions (cancer, etc.) to obtain health insurance.   Also people who couldn't afford insurance before.   Prior to Obamacare, those people were ruthlessly turned away by insurance companies.  Without health insurance, the costs resulting from a single serious medical incident could result in an individual having to declare bankruptcy and/ or losing their home.   Imagine having a serious pre-existing condition, no insurance, and having to go to bed every night wondering what tomorrow might bring.

 

Opponents of the Affordable Care Act complain about the mandatory nature of the insurance but that's what makes it work.   

 

I don't want to turn this into a debate about health insurance but I am tired of hearing how bad Obamacare is when in fact it is helping a great many people.

Edited March 29, 2016 by millennium

[Artsda]

 

After watching Leah Remini talk about escaping from Scientology and the strict rules they hold for members that leave the church, it's very understandable why Kate Bornstein hasn't seen her daughter in 34 years. Once a member departs or is expelled, they are instantly dead to the Church of Scientology and all its members including any relatives who remain there including mother, father, children, etc.

It's not understandable to me why a mother would abandon her 9 year old. A 9 year old had no say in church or where to stay, or to declare who is dead to her. She was 9!

 

It was up to parents to make a co-parenting decision and it seems like Kate left for herself to transition, was having her own personal struggles and abandoned her daughter. Yet is now claiming it was all Scientology, like she had no say at all to parent a  9 year old. Church or no church, I don't really blame Kate's daughter for not wanting her in her life now when she left her at the age of 9 and claims there was no other choice.  She had choices.

 

Katie Holmes left Tom & the church, she took her child with her. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Artsda

[rck]

I'm one of those who are much better off because of the Obamacare regulations. I'm really, really grateful, because I have no idea what I'd be doing otherwise.

 

It's not an ideal system and it's definitely very far from what I'd like to see. I know some people who have legitimate complaints about the system. Caitlyn Jenner is not someone whose complaints I take very seriously, though. She acknowledges what a struggle life is for many people when shes talking about issues like homeless trans youth, but then she complains about how she's unfairly targeted for being in the 1%. It can be hard to feel sorry for her.

[Found A Peanut]

If you are self employed/self insured, then Obamacare determines how much your premiums will be according to your income. They wealthy pay exorbitant premiums, and the average chump like me that is self employed pay out the ass as well. It's not a good system. I can not afford the insurance that I am told I have to have with no choice because if I don't enroll, the government will penalize me at the end of the year. 

All of the elective plastic surgery Cait has had isn't covered. That's probably what she meant when she said she doesn't use it.

Obamacare didn't abolish private insurance, nothing is forcing Cait to purchase a plan from the marketplace. And I'm pretty sure income requirements are only about whether you can qualify for a subsidy. I think Cait is just full of shit, as per usual. I'd like to know where she pulled that number from, but it's probably some fresh from her ass calculation of how much the Democrats have cost her in taxes or some such.

I really wonder if Cait can possibly be as oblivious as she seems to understanding that some of the politicians she's spoken so admiringly of regard her as an abomination. Does she really think she's too special a snowflake to be reviled the way poorer, less connected transfolk are?

[jenrising]

If you are self employed/self insured, then Obamacare determines how much your premiums will be according to your income. They wealthy pay exorbitant premiums, and the average chump like me that is self employed pay out the ass as well. 

I know this is kind of OT, but that is not accurate. Premiums are set by the insurance companies within whatever the ACA and state requirements are. And, of course, the levels of coverage. Income only determines what kind of subsidy a person gets to lower the premium cost. So if Cait lived in my state and wanted the same plan I have, we'd pay the same amount because my income is outside the subsidy range, even though I make a tiny percentage of what she does.

[CousinAmy]

I think the $450,000 figure Caitlyn was referring to was for all of her elective surgery, not for insurance premiums. She doesn't like Obamacare for the same reasons other conservatives do, the poor are getting something for free.

As for Kate B. leaving her child behind, she also left her ex-wife, who probably insisted that her child stay. If Kate had taken the child, the other parent would have been the one who would never see her child again, which is also unfair.

[nexxie]

Here's the thing. I believe that Caitlyn still has residual affects from being dyslexic and doesn't spend much time reading anything which means she is by default woefully uneducated about a variety of thing. She instead relies on what she see's on TV or hears from her rich LA friends and that's why she is politically conservative. She demonstrated that fact perfectly during this episode.

True - she doesn't seem to read, or think, a lot. Spouts talking points she might even get from talk radio.

[iwasish]

I think the $450,000 figure Caitlyn was referring to was for all of her elective surgery, not for insurance premiums. She doesn't like Obamacare for the same reasons other conservatives do, the poor are getting something for free.

As for Kate B. leaving her child behind, she also left her ex-wife, who probably insisted that her child stay. If Kate had taken the child, the other parent would have been the one who would never see her child again, which is also unfair.

Looking back 30 plus years, I doubt Kate would have stood a chance at having custody and may even have been denied or had to have visitation supervised  if the courts knew of her transition. She knew full well that leaving the church meant losing her child and left anyway. It was her choice. Katie Holmes got her daughter out and has custody because I think Tom chose to let her go instead of risking his closetful of secrets being made public.

[ClareWalks]

I assumed the $450K was how much Cait paid in taxes, which obviously doesn't all go specifically to Obamacare, but shhh, don't tell Cait she's wrong about anything.

[Muffyn]

I more and more feel that every episode description should simply start with "Cait remains horrible."  Even at her best, she's horrible. 

[Found A Peanut]

Looking back 30 plus years, I doubt Kate would have stood a chance at having custody and may even have been denied or had to have visitation supervised  if the courts knew of her transition. She knew full well that leaving the church meant losing her child and left anyway. It was her choice. Katie Holmes got her daughter out and has custody because I think Tom chose to let her go instead of risking his closetful of secrets being made public.

Yeah, and contrast Katie Holmes' situation with Nicole Kidman's. Nicole tried to play ball, share custody, co-parent, and how did that work out? Leaving Scientology is no joke. But with what happened to Nicole to warn her, Holmes planned her divorce like she was leading a SEAL Team Six secret op.

I'm normally Judgey McBitcherson about people leaving kids behind, but I imagine that Kate B.'s situation might have been pretty desperate. It's so sad that she hasn't at least been able to reconnect with her child as an adult.

[RHJunkie]

I think the $450,000 figure Caitlyn was referring to was for all of her elective surgery, not for insurance premiums. She doesn't like Obamacare for the same reasons other conservatives do, the poor are getting something for free.

As for Kate B. leaving her child behind, she also left her ex-wife, who probably insisted that her child stay. If Kate had taken the child, the other parent would have been the one who would never see her child again, which is also unfair.

It's scary to think that we live in a world where people think it's okay for someone to suffer and not get proper medical treatments because they don't make enough money to afford it. Healthcare and education are two things that should be equally available to everyone.

Edited March 29, 2016 by RHJunkie

[millennium]

It's scary to think that we live in a world where people think it's okay for someone to suffer and not get proper medical treatments because they don't make enough money to afford it. 

 

Even as they treat themselves to millions of dollars worth of elective surgery.   

[Muffyn]

Cait is just as likely to have heard some truthiness-based factoid that mentioned $450K in regards to ObamaCare as she is to have spent that much on her surgery and/or healthcare.  She spouts talking points and sound bites without considering their validity or applicability often. 

[maraleia]

It's not understandable to me why a mother would abandon her 9 year old. A 9 year old had no say in church or where to stay, or to declare who is dead to her. She was 9!

 

It was up to parents to make a co-parenting decision and it seems like Kate left for herself to transition, was having her own personal struggles and abandoned her daughter. Yet is now claiming it was all Scientology, like she had no say at all to parent a  9 year old. Church or no church, I don't really blame Kate's daughter for not wanting her in her life now when she left her at the age of 9 and claims there was no other choice.  She had choices.

 

Katie Holmes left Tom & the church, she took her child with her. 

Here's the thing, Kate's ex-wife would and did get sole custody due to the way Scientology works. The only reason why Katie Holmes was successful is due to her lawyer father and three burner phones. FYI Kate left Scientology before transitioning.

[iwasish]

Scientology doesn't determine custody, courts do. Kate may not have started her transition prior to leaving the church, but I bet her inner struggle with gender played a part in it. She left her daughter, I assume without a custody battle, with her mother. Being a long standing member of the church she had to know that she would be persona non grata and cut out of their lives. She could have gone thru the courts and tried for visitation, but apparently did not. Unless she's asked why or choses to explain why, which she has no obligation to do, we won't know.

[HumblePi]

Scientology doesn't determine custody, courts do. Kate may not have started her transition prior to leaving the church, but I bet her inner struggle with gender played a part in it. She left her daughter, I assume without a custody battle, with her mother. Being a long standing member of the church she had to know that she would be persona non grata and cut out of their lives. She could have gone thru the courts and tried for visitation, but apparently did not. Unless she's asked why or choses to explain why, which she has no obligation to do, we won't know.

I think we have to view Kate Bornstein and Caitlyn Jenner as two similar people who have achieved their wish to transition at two completely stages of their lives. But we should realize they're lives are almost upside down mirror images of each others. They're totally opposite from each other in the period of time in their life that they chose to commence living as a transgender.

 

Caitlyn Jenner made the choice to suppress her female identification in exchange for the benefits that marriages and many children offered her. The safety net that marriage provided her in her public life allowed her to retain the Bruce Jenner identity and ways to earn millions of dollars through that identity. Caitlyn waited 65 years to reach the point in her life when she got everything she wanted out of life except for being who she felt she was born to be, a female.

 

Kate Bornstein did the exact opposite. She realized fairly early on that she was not the gender that she was assigned at birth but... she wasn't female either. She entered the Church of Scientology in the 1970's when it was still in its infancy stages and worked very closely with L. Ron Hubbard. She married twice in the years that she was involved in the Church of Scientology and had one daughter in that second marriage. Rather than waiting the 65 years to realize her desire to be who she felt she was born to be. She left her life in Scientology behind in 1981. She was fully aware that this meant she would be sacrificing any contact with her daughter. Now Kate is 68 years old but had her gender confirmation surgery way back in 1986. There would be no court in the United States that would have given any visitation or shared custody to a transgender. Kate moved to a lesbian community in San Francisco. She had also been diagnosed with PTSD and borderline personality disorder.

 

There's a lot about each of the 'girls' that people aren't aware of and most don't care to know. But their lives certainly were not, or are not easy ones. They're complicated and complex beyond our awareness.