S11.E16: Safe House

[catrox14]

 

I know Dean does the pat on the cheek too. So many of the hugs are mutual -- as in, it doesn't matter who started a hug, a hug was a-coming.

 

Dean definitely does the touching/holding of the face in his hands but I honestly don't think it's solely a health check. I feel like it's an emotional grounding thing too.  

 

I guess I'm thinking back over the course of the series that I feel like Sam hasn't done a lot of the touchy feely, pat on the shoulder thing until more recently..like s10 forward?  But maybe I'm just really not remembering. 

 

And before anyone freaks out, it's not a criticism of Sam.  He doesn't have to be touchy feely with Dean to love Dean. It's just a behavior that feels more recent?

[ae2]

- Sam getting the same room for "luck".  Ha! Sam, you ain't fooling anyone.  You got it for sentimental reasons and Dean would have done the same thing.

 

Not to mention that getting to the same motel that Riggs and Murtaugh used must have taken either a little work, or some nicely intimate knowledge about how the older duo operate.

[bethy]

I guess I'm thinking back over the course of the series that I feel like Sam hasn't done a lot of the touchy feely, pat on the shoulder thing until more recently..like s10 forward?  But maybe I'm just really not remembering. 

 

This is my feeling/remembering, too, that Dean's been the one who is more of a toucher than Sam. There was someone years ago who had done a whole visual inventory of Dean's shepherding touches, not just of Sam, but of people they were protecting; and then did a nice little comparison of Sam's attempts to herd Dean through the revival tent in Faith, basically pulling him along and manhandling him (in the sweetest way) up to the front. I wish I could remember more exactly who it was who had done it and what the premise was she (I'm assuming) was working from.

 

But I also can't help but wonder if my reading of fic has influenced my judgment there. :)

[Aeryn13]

I think you mean sargraf over on lj. She did the touching-metas, complete with gifs for the Seasons. But I believe her blog has been inactive for years. 

[bethy]

Yes! I'm pretty sure that's who it was. Thanks!

[DittyDotDot]

First, I wanna say I really liked this episode. Well-grounded, good character beats all around and a new urban legend too boot...good times!

 

Now, I have a few words for Robbie Thompson: I knew you had it in you. You finally did what I've been asking you to do for years...you just wrote the story instead of letting the concept overwhelm the story. And, you wrote it well. Thanks for that.

 

On another note...what do ya'all think might be in roadkill casserole? ;)

[auntvi]

Armadillo + squirrel + ?

[AwesomO4000]

Hmmm - well deer of course would be best, but I'm guessing possum or raccoon myself.

 

And if you are thinking this is weird, I remember back in my college days reading a full page article or more in our college newspaper detailing the best way to find/harvest roadkill as a food source. And no, I'm not kidding, and the article was not a joke. It was dead serious. And being really poor myself back in those days - I paid most of my own way through college, and money was tight - I would've appreciated the advice if I had a car or drove (I didn't), and had time to go out that early in the morning to look for it.

 

Personally in terms of game or roadkill type critters though, I haven't tried possum, so I couldn't comment on that. I don't think I've tried raccoon either that I recall - but rabbit and squirrel are quite tasty, in my opinion. So my vote for roadkill casserole would be a couple of tasty squirrels. Wild critters in general though? For me, not much beats frog legs, not even a good catfish (though that, too would be good).

 

Okay, that was probably more information than you wanted. ; )

 

Armadillo + squirrel + ?

 

I considered armadillo, but I wasn't sure how far north those go. (I haven't tried armadillo either).

 

I also suspect that for the casserole part, either breadcrumbs or potato chips would be involved... most likely the latter, since it'd be readily available at the local Gas n' Sip. Heh.

[catrox14]

Armadillo + squirrel + ?

 

/GASP!!!!  NO NOT SQUIRREL!!! HOW DARE YOU

 

Armadillo+prairie dog

[Demented Daisy]

/GASP!!!!  NO NOT SQUIRREL!!! HOW DARE YOU

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that a squirrel + moose casserole wouldn't be... tasty?  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Armadillo does sound appealing, but I have no actual way of acquiring armadillo road kill...so I have to ask myself WWCD (What Would Crowley Do)....squirrel  and moose are both plentiful in my neck of the woods. 

 

So just add whiskey and throw it in the oven? ;)

[catrox14]

Are you suggesting that a squirrel + moose casserole wouldn't be... tasty?  ;-)

 

I am saying it's an affront to my Winchester sensibilities!

Armadillo does sound appealing, but I have no actual way of acquiring armadillo road kill...so I have to ask myself WWCD (What Would Crowley Do)....squirrel  and moose are both plentiful in my neck of the woods. 

 

So just add whiskey and throw it in the oven? ;)

 

 

[Demented Daisy]

Armadillo does sound appealing, but I have no actual way of acquiring armadillo road kill...so I have to ask myself WWCD (What Would Crowley Do)....squirrel  and moose are both plentiful in my neck of the woods. 

 

So just add whiskey and throw it in the oven? ;)

 

Yeah... the lovin' oven!  Wah chicka wah wah!

 

*ahem*  I'll show myself out....

[AwesomO4000]

But then, DD, wouldn't that be more of a sandwich?

 

Now I'll show myself out.

[Demented Daisy]

Sandwich, casserole, does it really matter?  ;-)

[catrox14]

I feel like there should be a wrap in here somewhere...

[trxr4kids]

Moose wrap with squirrel sauce? I'll be bleaching my brain for a few hours, excuse me.

[catrox14]

Random thoughts about Safe House

 

 

--Dean's breakup beard is growing again.

--He's drinking more

--He seems like he's really on edge again

 

Kind of like when he was out to find Gadreel.  I feel like he's getting depressed again :(

[heisenberg]

Bobby: Were you ever nice?

Rufus:  1985...  Worst day of my life...

[BlueMeanie]

I think you're right, BlueMeanie. I hadn't made that connection. Though I'd get one of Sam's headaches trying to figure out how the Souleater was able to come back if it also died back in Bobby's time to set Bobby free. Or a wizard did it.

 

This is the explanation I'm going with, it may not make any sense.  For lack of a better term I'm going to call Sam and Dean's world "the real world."  Sam said the soul eaters aren't really here or there but they can muster enough strength to yank souls out of the real world and into their nest.  The nest and the souls inside of it exist outside of time and space.  I think unless it is actively collecting souls, which apparently takes a lot of effort, the soul eater is connected to the real world through souls inside the nest, but only while the people are still alive.  This is why it could easily possess Bobby and Dean in the real world, because a part of them was both inside the nest and in the real world.  I think to the soul eater time in the real world is like a loop which can be twisted or folded and cross over itself, so the soul eater could be both in the past and the present at the same time.  Since it was connected to both Dean and Bobby at the same time it was simultaneously in the past and the present so it didn't matter at which point on the timeline it died.  Now I have a headache.

 

The way I understood it, Bobby was too late.  He said that it looked like Harvey had been unconscious for at least 3-4 days (presumably without medical care), so even though Bobby trapped the soul eater, Harvey was already gone.

 

Theoretically, your way could work, but I'd rather not risk the headache.  ;-)

 

Bobby said that it looked like Harvey had been in a coma "for days."  The other victims were also in a coma for days, so I don't see any reason why he couldn't have woken up as well.  The only difference was that he wasn't getting medical care, but that didn't seem to be helping the others anyway.  Also, even if he was too far gone to be saved, all that tells us is that even if Bobby had killed the soul eater he wouldn't have woken up anyway.

 

After watching the episode again, I'm sure that Sam and Dean were the ones who saved Bobby and the others in the past.  None of the characters were convinced that trapping the soul eater would actually push the souls back out, they just accepted that as the cause because they had no other explanation.  Based on their knowledge at the time it seemed like the only possibility, until the end of the episode when Dean brings up the idea that maybe he and Bobby were in the nest at the same time.

 

That's the difficulty with time plots.  Was Bobby's soul eater hunt before or after Crowley 'borrowed' his soul?  I guess it's like Schrodinger's Cat.  Bobby's soul is both trapped in the nest and back in his body. 

 

Crowley didn't "borrow" Bobby's soul until the end of season five and the Bobby/Rufus portion of this episode took place in season four.

 

I really enjoyed seeing Bobby and Rufus again.  This show kills too many good characters. :-(

 

Loved that Bobby and Rufus were Riggs and Murtaugh and then Sam says "I'm getting too old for this."

 

As far as Sam being less touchy-feely than Dean, I don't know if that is the case as I hadn't really noticed it before, but if it is it could have to do with their different childhoods.  Up until he was 4 years old Dean had a normal family life with a mother who I'm sure hugged and caressed him and I assume that John was much more tender before Mary died.  Sam never experienced that or at least he would have been too young to remember.

Edited March 25, 2016 by BlueMeanie

[Demented Daisy]

Bobby said that it looked like Harvey had been in a coma "for days."  The other victims were also in a coma for days, so I don't see any reason why he couldn't have woken up as well.  The only difference was that he wasn't getting medical care, but that didn't seem to be helping the others anyway.  Also, even if he was too far gone to be saved, all that tells us is that even if Bobby had killed the soul eater he wouldn't have woken up anyway.

 

 

The medical care made a big difference.  Days without food and water will kill you much faster than days hooked up to an IV.  

 

Has anyone tweeted Robbie Thompson and asked him if Sam and Dean saved the people in the past and present?

Edited March 25, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

I would guess/hope that it would at least save their souls (or what was left of them and they could heal?) That would be better than being soul-eater food and potentially no longer existing.

[catrox14]

I would guess/hope that it would at least save their souls (or what was left of them and they could heal?) That would be better than being soul-eater food and potentially no longer existing.

 

It's kind of interesting to me that Amara eats souls but her victims don't die. They just walk around soulless.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Ask Supernatural's Dead Good Ol' Boy Hunter Dude
Just because Bobby's dead doesn't mean he doesn't give good advice.

[Myrelle]

I only watched this one once and had honestly hoped for more from it, but I really liked Dean as the soul eater telling Sam that his brother wanted to go with the Darkness-and not only that, but that he needed to go-an interesting choice of words, IMO. I also liked the time element involved, I think that by going into the nest and drawing the sigil there, that Dean saved all the souls that the soul eater had acquired through-out time-which is why he saw Bobby and saved his soul. I further think that whether the bodies were still alive or not, all the souls that were trapped were saved, and were thus able to move on to where ever they should have been or gone, naturally. Time literally had no meaning whatsoever there-years were like seconds or minutes.

 

I thought JA(and that amazing scruff of his!) looked torturously delicious in this one, and IA with who ever said  that we are heading for a sacrifice from Dean that might just not seem like too much of a sacrifice to him. Peace will be what she offers him, IMO-not a final peace, of course, but maybe one that will last as long as it takes Sam to bring him back in our time. And with this episode, who knows how long that might wind up being for Dean, wherever he goes, with her. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Myrelle

[mertensia]

Wouldn't painting over the symbol be better than using butt-ugly wallpaper to cover it?

Oh Rufus. How I've missed you.

Those ghosts with their decayed faces were creepy.

[SueB]

I only watched this one once and had honestly hoped for more from it, but I really liked Dean as the soul eater telling Sam that his brother wanted to go with the Darkness-and not only that, but that he needed to go-an interesting choice of words, IMO. I also liked the time element involved, I think that by going into the nest and drawing the sigil there, that Dean saved all the souls that the soul eater had acquired through-out time-which is why he saw Bobby and saved his soul. I further think that whether the bodies were still alive or not, all the souls that were trapped were saved, and were thus able to move on to where ever they should have been or gone, naturally. Time literally had no meaning whatsoever there-years were like seconds or minutes.

 

I thought JA(and that amazing scruff of his!) looked torturously delicious in this one, and IA with who ever said  that we are heading for a sacrifice from Dean that might just not seem like too much of a sacrifice to him. Peace will be what she offers him, IMO-not a final peace, of course, but maybe one that will last as long as it takes Sam to bring him back in our time. And with this episode, who knows how long that might wind up being for Dean, wherever he goes, with her. 

 

I've thought about it more and I'm kinda on board with the Blue Meanie temporal anomaly theory. Here's why: (fair warning... charts & graphs mode...)

- What was the whole POINT of introducing a temporal anomaly if all it did was provide Bobby and Dean a glimpse across time?   Nice, but waste of a good opportunity IMO.

- My original sticking point was how could Bobby, Mary & her son live so long ago.  And what about the rest of the ones trapped?  Then it occurred to me, what Bobby did was stop the continued impact the Soul Eater was having on his and the the two living bodies.  By putting up the entrapment sigil, Rufus essentially froze the effect. So in the fluid temporal existence, Mary, her son, and Bobby never died.  The other "sad people" were already dead when the entrapment sigil went up.  So they were able to be expelled when Sam killed the Soul Eater.  

- What about Ted?  Well Ted was too far gone.  He might have already been dead by the time Bobby figured out the entrapment sigil. Or, unlike Mary & her son, he was not under a doctor's care and just expired due to the damage already inflicted.  I expect Sam (presuming he's the one who goes inside in Tennessee) will see Ted as a "sad person".

- So why did Dean see Bobby and not go back to some other point?  Well Dean saw EVERYBODY who was in there for as long as the Soul Eater was chewing on his cud (gross, BTW).  Mary and her son were conveniently in another room (upstairs) and they got spit out when he and Bobby did.  Dean just didn't see them.  

- Clues that THIS was the answer and not something else:

1) Bobby was not sure Rufus' answer of "they got spit out" and "just take the win" was accurate.  Bobby's instincts are good.

2) The Johnny Walker Blue was a tip-off that we were in a temporal anomaly driven episode because it was last seen in "Time After Time"

3) As many have pointed out, souls existing outside of time and space in an "other" place seems AWFULLY close to a set-up that they may be able to save some of the souls Amara consumed already.  Just MAYBE.  

 

TL. DR Bottom Line: There's a logical answer for who ended up alive and who ended up dead that works well with killing the Soul Eater being what set everyone free (who lived). There were clues we were dealing with a temporal anomaly episode and it may have mytharc implications. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by SueB

[MysteryGuest]

I thought the episode was a good one, and it's always good to see Bobby and Rufus again.  I really wish they didn't feel they need to kill everyone off on this show.  I guess I should be glad that the nature of the show allows for even long-dead characters to come back, but sometimes it's not enough.

 

I'm not even going to attempt to figure out the whole time/space theory.  But maybe there's a way for them to trap either Amara or Lucifer in this other world, permanently.  Maybe Sam and Dean will be able to convince their new reaper to help them.  I know she's threatened to reap both of them, but if Amara is allowed to continue unchecked, then there will be no one else to reap, eventually.  I guess we'll see how it all plays out in the next 2 months.  And I'm pissed to learn there's another hiatus on the horizon, even though it's a short one.  Enough already!!

[BlueMeanie]

Then it occurred to me, what Bobby did was stop the continued impact the Soul Eater was having on his and the the two living bodies.  By putting up the entrapment sigil, Rufus essentially froze the effect. So in the fluid temporal existence, Mary, her son, and Bobby never died.  The other "sad people" were already dead when the entrapment sigil went up.  So they were able to be expelled when Sam killed the Soul Eater.  

 

Nice, this explains why Dean and Bobby were in the nest at the same time.  When Rufus trapped the soul eater, time in the nest slowed way down, so what seemed like minutes to Bobby was 7 years for Sam and Dean.  That's why Bobby, Mary and Will were released in the past, because barely any time had actually passed for them inside the nest.  All the other people had died before the trap was set, so they couldn't be saved.  This is much simpler than my previous explanation.

 

- What about Ted?  Well Ted was too far gone.  He might have already been dead by the time Bobby figured out the entrapment sigil. Or, unlike Mary & her son, he was not under a doctor's care and just expired due to the damage already inflicted.  I expect Sam (presuming he's the one who goes inside in Tennessee) will see Ted as a "sad person".

 

I'm assuming by Ted you mean Harvey.  I still want to believe that Harvey would have survived if Bobby had been able to kill the soul eater instead of just trapping it, but since Sam and Dean presumably will go back and kill the soul eater, why didn't Harvey survive?  I guess maybe he was too far gone.

 

- So why did Dean see Bobby and not go back to some other point?  Well Dean saw EVERYBODY who was in there for as long as the Soul Eater was chewing on his cud (gross, BTW).  Mary and her son were conveniently in another room (upstairs) and they got spit out when he and Bobby did.  Dean just didn't see them.  

 

Exactly.  Dean saw Bobby because he was still alive when the trap was set, Mary and Will were upstairs and no one else got pulled into the nest until Naoki and Kat got trapped.

 

1) Bobby was not sure Rufus' answer of "they got spit out" and "just take the win" was accurate.  Bobby's instincts are good.

 

This and Sam's very doubtful explanation that "maybe the trap forced their souls out" are what make me positive that Sam and Dean saved everyone.

 

ETA: sorry if I was just repeating what you said SueB I'm just trying to make it all make sense in my head.

Edited March 27, 2016 by BlueMeanie

[MysteryGuest]

Harvey had been there for days, according to Bobby, so he was probably near death, if not already dead, when Bobby found him.  The others who were hospitalized had only been there for one day and their vitals were already shutting down, according to that doctor.  I don't think they'd have lasted much longer than a few days either, had they not found a way to kill the soul eater.

 

I'm still not sure if Sam and Dean's actions freed everyone, or if just trapping the soul eater was enough to eject any "living" souls, but by killing it, they've saved future families from redecorating tragedies!  I agree that paint might have been a better option than wallpaper, but then we wouldn't have an episode.

[Demented Daisy]

Wouldn't paint have dissolved the sigil?  They had to paint it in blood, right?

[DittyDotDot]

That was my thought too, DD. 

[catrox14]

I've probably been watching WAY too much Doctor Who and Fringe with all the wibbley wobbley timey wimey stuff and pocket universes and alternate universes, but I also have a little head!canon that Bobby chose wallpaper instead of paint so that the boys would have access to the sigil.

 

I think when he said to Rufus that he saw something else that was probably nothing, that was a reference to him seeing Dean in the future and he figured the boys would need access to the sigil to save him and Rufus and release everyone else that had been trapped over time by the soul eater.    

 

Wibbley wobbley timey wimey...stuff

 

 

ETA: Basically Bobby left a trail for Sam and Dean but he couldn't write it in the book otherwise they might have only saved Bobby and Rufus and not everyone else.

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

The kill sigils had to be done in blood, but I don't think the trap sigil did, it looked like Rufus was using paint.  Either way I think painting over it would essentially remove the sigil.  I also like Catrox's idea that Bobby left it there for the boys to find.  I agree that Bobby was referring to seeing Dean when he said he saw something else in the nest.

 

I wonder if the sigil has any relation to the one used in Into The Mystic.  That was also a Celtic sigil wasn't it?

 

I forgot to say earlier, I really enjoy when Sam and Dean have a fight scene.  Jensen and Jared are so good at selling it, their fights always look so brutal.  I believe they have said that they enjoy filming fight scenes with each other due to their combined experience and I know they don't like "fighting" with actors who are novices at filming fights.

 

A few more things that support my temporal anomaly theory:

 

-Rufus didn't expect Bobby to wake up from the coma.  When he saw him on the floor he brought up "the oldest rule" and seemed to be implying that by finishing the trap he thought Bobby would die due to being trapped inside the nest.

 

-When the trap was set, the nest started to shake, I'm assuming due to time there being frozen or slowed down and Bobby said "this can't be good," probably realizing he was trapped in the nest.  If Bobby had been released from the nest at that time he wouldn't have been there when Dean was there.  Dean and Bobby didn't see each other until after the Soul Eater was killed because Bobby was upstairs and Dean was downstairs.  When Dean and Bobby saw each other Bobby was coming down the stairs.

 

The more I think about this episode the more I like it.

[FlickChick]

If all of this speculation (and I love all of it) is what Robbie Thompson had in mind when he wrote this episode, then he is a much better writer than most on staff including our showrunner. 

[McKinley]

There were two separate soul eaters / nests referenced in the episode. (Just spelling this out for my own clarity.)

 

The first soul eater was the one that that Harvey and Bobby encountered in Tennessee.  Bobby trapped that soul eater with the sigil he drew.  Since Bobby did not kill the soul eater, Harvey’s soul also remained trapped in the nest.  At the very end of the ep, the boys reference cleaning up Bobby’s unfinished business, meaning that they were going to return there and kill that soul eater, too, now that they know how to do so.

 

The second soul eater was the one that first Bobby and Rufus and later Sam and Dean encountered in Michigan.  Rufus trapped it in its nest, along with Bobby’s soul.  It wasn’t until Sam and Dean killed the soul eater that all of their souls were released, along with all of the other trapped souls there.  So, Sam and Dean save Dean, Bobby, the two mothers and the two children. 

 

The ep did not completely explain why some of the souls successfully returned to their bodies before their bodies died, and others presumably did not.  (See my ETA next paragraph - I think SueB has it right.)  I think that the most likely explanation is that the soul eater feeds on the souls slowly, and only after they are degraded to a certain extent are they unable to re-animate the body.  Assuming that the boys do arrive and kill his soul eater, Harvey was trapped years before Bobby, and so his soul was too degraded to reanimate his body (or perhaps different soul eaters consume their souls at different rates, possibly dependent on how many souls they’ve managed to trap).  That implies that although the nest is “outside of time and space,” there is some connection between the passage of time in the “real” world and inside the nest.  I think this conclusion is supported by the “older” souls in the nest appearing more degraded / sick than the “newer” ones, and also by the fact that the people that woke up from their comas did not wake up instantaneously after they were originally taken.

 

ETA:  I like SueB’s idea that the trapping sigil effectively froze the nest, preserving Bobby’s soul.  But if that were the case then Bobby’s trapping sigil should have also preserved Harvey’s soul - unless that soul eater had already consumed it in the couple days before Bobby arrived.  That could make sense - that the withering and dying of the body in the real world reflects the consumption of the soul in the nest, reflected in a time frame of around 72 real-world hours.  But if that were the case, shouldn’t Harvey’s body have remained in a perpetual coma from that point forward?  I guess it's possible that he did - Bobby just says that he never woke up.  

 

And I like Catrox’s idea that Bobby left a trail for the boys and chose not to write about it in his journal to avoid any paradoxes.  But I don’t think that the writers had that in mind.  Bobby was going to write about it in his journal, he just got interrupted (by Dean).  

 

Overall, I loved the episode as much as everyone else.  It was tightly written and directed and it seemed like a lot of thought went into it.  I love episodes where the more you think about them, the more they make sense and the details fit together (as opposed to episodes where the more you think about them, the more holes you find).

Edited March 29, 2016 by McKinley

[AwesomO4000]

ETA:  I like SueB’s idea that the trapping sigil effectively froze the nest, preserving Bobby’s soul.  But if that were the case then Bobby’s trapping sigil should have also preserved Harvey’s soul - unless that soul eater had already consumed it in the couple days before Bobby arrived.  That could make sense - that the withering and dying of the body in the real world reflects the consumption of the soul in the nest, reflected in a time frame of around 72 real-world hours.  But if that were the case, shouldn’t Harvey’s body have remained in a perpetual coma from that point forward?  I guess it's possible that he did - Bobby just says that he never woke up. 

 

I thought that the reason for the difference was a lack of medical attention. I was under the impression that the Souleater "ate" souls pretty slowly, but Harvey was in a coma with no medical attention, so even if the time was "frozen" by the trap and Harvey's soul was still pretty much intact, his body was dying, and so the soul wouldn't have had a functioning body to go back to. It's sort of like Dean in "In My Time of Dying." Dean's soul was fine, but Tessa told Dean that he wasn't going to be getting back into his body, I'm assuming because it was too damaged and was dying, so he would end up a ghost. So for me that was the difference. Harvey was lying alone on the floor for a few days with no medical attention, likely dehydrating, so even if his soul was still salvageable, it wouldn't have a viable body to return to.

 

That's why I speculated in my above post that even if Sam and Dean weren't able to save all of the people - the "sad people" (souls) - because some of the bodies may have died, they maybe saved their souls from being Souleater "cud" for all eternity, so that they could move on to their eternal resting spot (hopefully heaven). If however, they became ghosts: yikes, because that would be one messy problem later. So I'm hoping they got to move on.

[McKinley]

I thought that the reason for the difference was a lack of medical attention. I was under the impression that the Souleater "ate" souls pretty slowly, but Harvey was in a coma with no medical attention, so even if the time was "frozen" by the trap and Harvey's soul was still pretty much intact, his body was dying, and so the soul wouldn't have had a functioning body to go back to. It's sort of like Dean in "In My Time of Dying." Dean's soul was fine, but Tessa told Dean that he wasn't going to be getting back into his body, I'm assuming because it was too damaged and was dying, so he would end up a ghost. So for me that was the difference. Harvey was lying alone on the floor for a few days with no medical attention, likely dehydrating, so even if his soul was still salvageable, it wouldn't have a viable body to return to.

 

That's why I speculated in my above post that even if Sam and Dean weren't able to save all of the people - the "sad people" (souls) - because some of the bodies may have died, they maybe saved their souls from being Souleater "cud" for all eternity, so that they could move on to their eternal resting spot (hopefully heaven). If however, they became ghosts: yikes, because that would be one messy problem later. So I'm hoping they

got to move on.

 

That is possible.  When Dean and Sam killed the soul eater, Bobby’s soul (and the mother’s and son’s souls) returned to his body at the point in time when Rufus activated the trapping sigil.  So, when Dean and Sam return to the TN house and kill that soul eater, Harvey’s soul should return to his body at the point that Bobby activated the trapping sigil there.  It’s possible that because his body was laying on the floor for several days in the coma, it was too dehydrated and otherwise damaged for him to revive.  

 

What we can conclude is that either Harvey’s body or his soul had to have effectively passed the point of resuscitation at the time that Bobby activated the trapping sigil.  I’m not sure if we’re given enough information in the ep to know which it was.  The reason that I think that the soul eater consumes the souls over the period of “real” time that the body withers is that we know that bodies can exist without a soul.  Therefore, taking the soul from the body should not cause the coma or the death of the body.  So there is something else causing it.  We also know that the soul eater does something to the souls over time, because the older souls in the nest were visibly damaged in some way.  So it seems logical to me that the two are connected.  ETA: Perhaps it is the way that the soul eater rips the soul from the body that causes the damage to the body.

 

Either way, there was still something remaining of those “old” souls in the nest, so perhaps the soul eater is unable to completely consume them.  I do think they were saved from eternal torment with the soul eater.  Perhaps they were then reaped and could choose to move on or to become ghosts, just like every soul. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by McKinley

[MysteryGuest]

I still think that trapping the soul eater was enough to eject newly trapped souls.  I think in the case of Harvey, he was close to death or dead already, so there was no body for his soul to return to once Bobby figured out how to trap the damn thing.  But in the case of Rufus and Bobby, they were able to trap it and thereby release Bobby and the mother and son.  Dean and Sam went a step further and actually killed the thing, so it was a permanent fix.  And they were then heading to the other location to do the same thing with that soul eater.  I know that time is wonky, but I don't see how Bobby's soul could have been trapped in the nest for 7 years.  And they interviewed the original mother who was trapped with Bobby before they ever uncovered the sigil.  As for how Dean and Bobby could cross paths in the nest, that I can't explain. 

[sarthaz]

[catrox14]

 

As for how Dean and Bobby could cross paths in the nest, that I can't explain.

 

Temporal anomaly/pocket universe

 

DEAN: Maybe it's like -- like you said before, that Bobby and Rufus' trap sigil forced their souls out of The Nest back then and that the Soul Eater was just making me see things.

 

SAM: However... if Bobby did go into The Nest back then --

 

DEAN:  And you said that The Nest exists outside of space and time -- then...  Well, theoretically, couldn't he and I have been there at the same time? Right?

 

 

Can I say that freaking LOVED that DEAN who is portrayed to often in the show as being stupid got the wibbley wobbley timey wimey reason he and Bobby saw each other. 

[Zanne]

The kill sigils had to be done in blood, but I don't think the trap sigil did, it looked like Rufus was using paint.  Either way I think painting over it would essentially remove the sigil. 

 

What about covering the sigil with decoupage glue? Slap on some ModPodge and that thing is set for life.

[AwesomO4000]

What about covering the sigil with decoupage glue? Slap on some ModPodge and that thing is set for life.

 

Where's Zachariah when you need him? Heh.

[sarthaz]

Can I say that freaking LOVED that DEAN who is portrayed to often in the show as being stupid got the wibbley wobbley timey wimey reason he and Bobby saw each other. 

 

One thing I've always loved about this show is that Dean is the Trekkie. Everything else about their personalities would point to Sam being a Trek-geek, but it's Dean who wants to visit Star Trek: The Experience, Dean who likens dickbag angels to politicians from Vulcan, and Dean who wants to "Star Trek IV this bitch." With his vast knowledge of Trek, I guess it's no surprise he'd be all over the wibbley wobbley timey wimey.

[catrox14]

One thing I've always loved about this show is that Dean is the Trekkie. Everything else about their personalities would point to Sam being a Trek-geek, but it's Dean who wants to visit Star Trek: The Experience, Dean who likens dickbag angels to politicians from Vulcan, and Dean who wants to "Star Trek IV this bitch." With his vast knowledge of Trek, I guess it's no surprise he'd be all over the wibbley wobbley timey wimey.

bc

Exactly! Plus he's time traveled the most and has been in two dimensions and an alternate universe(THE END ,which he remembers).Dean has been an enginenerd from the beginning what with making the Walkman EMF, rebuilding the Impala twice, geeking on ST, SW and all the X-Files references.

I like to think that Thompson remembered all that about Dean when he gave Dean that line.

I guess I've become a wee bit jaded when the writing staff fails to remember certain character traits in Dean beyond booze, babes, and burgers. OMG that is totally going to be the name of Dean's burger shack one day. Dean's House of Burgers, Booze and Babes. (tm ME) The servers will be wearing cutoff shorts and boots with Plaid shirts over black t-shirts.

[rue721]

This was a really great episode. I miss Rufus. And I miss Rufus/Bobby as a hunting team. Their dynamic is hilarious. I was never on board with the Grumpy Old Hunters spinoff, but if this was a backdoor pilot, they won me over COMPLETELY. And if it was a backdoor pilot, DDD you need to go get your credit and collect your paycheck!

 

Anyway, the thing I don't get about Bobby's soul being returned to his body once Sam and Dean destroyed the Soul Eater is that Bobby is dead in the present day. So it doesn't seem like being dead at the time that Sam and Dean destroyed the Soul Eater was a problem...So, did ALL the souls get returned to their living bodies, in whatever era/time period that their bodies were actually still alive in? Like if someone's soul was taken to the nest in 1934, and then their body died, and then Sam and Dean destroyed the nest, would their soul then go back to their living 1934 body? It seemed like that WAS maybe what was happening when all the people in the nest disappeared, but wouldn't that create a whole alternate timeline/AU?

 

Also, I think that Sam meant "comforting" as in "sweet." As in, it's sweet that, as sophisticated/jaded/cynical/etc as he might have become over the years, Dean's big fear is still the oldie but goodie that Sam will get killed. But I think a word like "sweet" could have come off as sarcastic or condescending or whatever, and they wanted to be clear that Sam meant it positively, so they went with the less loaded "comforting."

[AwesomO4000]

Also, I think that Sam meant "comforting" as in "sweet." As in, it's sweet that, as sophisticated/jaded/cynical/etc as he might have become over the years, Dean's big fear is still the oldie but goodie that Sam will get killed. But I think a word like "sweet" could have come off as sarcastic or condescending or whatever, and they wanted to be clear that Sam meant it positively, so they went with the less loaded "comforting."

 

I think someone else up thread had a good thought on this. That poster guessed that maybe by Sam saying "comforting" he was meaning that at least Dean wasn't seeing Amara this time, as opposed to the last time Dean was hallucinating - in that case when he was supposed to see his greatest desire - and he saw Amara. At least this time he wasn't worrying about Amara's welfare. Instead it was - as you said - the old standby again of Sam rather than Amara still. But that might not have been the intention either.

 

I'm thinking maybe some dialogue got cut there that might've made that scene more clear perhaps?

[DittyDotDot]

This was a really great episode. I miss Rufus. And I miss Rufus/Bobby as a hunting team. Their dynamic is hilarious. I was never on board with the Grumpy Old Hunters spinoff, but if this was a backdoor pilot, they won me over COMPLETELY. And if it was a backdoor pilot, DDD you need to go get your credit and collect your paycheck!

 

Anyway, the thing I don't get about Bobby's soul being returned to his body once Sam and Dean destroyed the Soul Eater is that Bobby is dead in the present day. So it doesn't seem like being dead at the time that Sam and Dean destroyed the Soul Eater was a problem...So, did ALL the souls get returned to their living bodies, in whatever era/time period that their bodies were actually still alive in? Like if someone's soul was taken to the nest in 1934, and then their body died, and then Sam and Dean destroyed the nest, would their soul then go back to their living 1934 body? It seemed like that WAS maybe what was happening when all the people in the nest disappeared, but wouldn't that create a whole alternate timeline/AU?

 

Oh, I highly doubt it was a backdoor pilot. And, to be fair, I  wasn't really suggesting the idea for a full-series spin-off, but thought it could work as a mini-series. But, hey, if someone wants to pay me, I'm happy to accept! ;)

 

So, I've been trying to figure a way to articulate my theory of why some folks lived and others died and all this timey-wimey nonsense, but realized Dean said it best at the end of the episode:

 

"I don't know. Maybe it's like-like you said before, that Bobby and Rufus' trap sigil forced their souls out of the nest back then, and that the soul eater was just making me see things. However, if Bobby did go into the nest back then, and you said that the nest exists outside of space and time, then... Theoretically, couldn't he and I have been there at the same time? Right?"

 

So, what Sam and Dean did in the present, IMO, didn't save anyone in the past. Bobby/Rufus saved the folks in the past by trapping the soul eater in the house and forcing those souls out of the nest who had viable bodies to return to at that time. And Sam/Dean saved the folks in the present by killing the soul eater which not only forced out the souls like before, but destroyed the nest itself. The reason Dean/Bobby saw so many "sad" people, and each other, while in the nest was because the nest was out of time which allowed all the souls ever to be trapped in the nest to exist at the same time. They disappeared because the entire nest was disappearing due to the soul eater being killed.

 

I actually don't think its a timey-wimey thing as to who was saved when, only a timey-wimey thing with regards to who was in the nest when. Okay, seriously, that did make sense in my head.

 

BTW, I was watching Something Wicked the other day and I got to wondering if soul eaters were a sort of distant cousin of stregas? They both put their victims into comas where they languish and die. And, it was said the strega fed on the kids' life force, which would now translate to the soul. Just thought it was interesting in light of this episode.

Edited April 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Supernatural does representation of homosexual couples very well.
• The editing with cuts between Rufus/Bobby and Dean/Sam were excellent – mostly seamless (couple jarring ones, but nbd).
• Lol.  After watching these first episodes of the season through, I really understand what others were talking about re: one of the brothers complaining about not looking for Amara while the other says they need to do something else.  It really did become redundant.
• The suit Sam was wearing was nicely tailored.  Dean’s suits always look good.  Sam’s sometimes look a little too baggy.  So it was nice to see him in one that actually fit well.
• There seems to be a lot of soul eating going on lately.  Amara eats souls, the Grigori, now The Soul Eater. 
• LOL.  Dean was so confident he was going to win Rock Paper Scissors after he won last time.  His interaction with Kat was precious.
• I still don’t understand why Sam would say that Dean seeing him dead inside the nest was comforting. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 3/24/2016 at 11:49 AM, SueB said:

I'm starting to think the Impala trunk might be spelled with the Hermione Granger purse spell because... dahmn.  That's one useful trunk.

I was thinking more like the Room of Requirement - whatever you need just when you need it.