Spoilers and Spoiled Speculation

[Danielg342]

@Kostgard hit the nail on the head. There's way too much "yo-yoing" and not enough genuinely new stories or angles.

I'm beginning to feel like the producers are using this show as an excuse to showcase their "spin" on Batman's rogue gallery because that's all they promote.

[Kostgard]

6 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

 

I'm beginning to feel like the producers are using this show as an excuse to showcase their "spin" on Batman's rogue gallery because that's all they promote.

That does honestly seem to be their strong suit - they certainly haven't figured out a way to make Jim the most compelling character. And it's why although I'm wary of moving Bruce down the path to Batman too quickly, I'm also glad that it's happening because this show needs a compelling hero. I get it to some extent - the villains are always more fun. But we need a little balance here.

Because as of right now, I'm really wondering why I'm supposed to be hyped for a darker Jim. And where does he have left to go? He's already committed murder (and let someone else take the fall for it), lied under oath, collaborated with criminals when it served him, then would throw said criminal to the wolves when it served him, and myriad other crimes that I can't think of at the moment, most of which he can't blame on his time under the influence of the virus. I assume he's going to start eating babies, because that's about all that's left for him. 

And we know (thanks to TV Guide) that Oswald takes over Gotham again (at least the criminal side), but if the past is any indicator, Oswald in charge of Gotham is, relatively speaking, not a terrible thing. When he was the crime kingpin and the mayor, things actually got better for the city because Oswald likes order and he was organizing everything so there was less chaos. The fact that they titled the first episode "Pax Pengiuna" suggests that his leadership style has not changed and it would be more of the same (unless they are being ironic and he's done a 180 and is set on destruction rather than building, but that would be a weird character turn for him). That's not to say the police should just sit back and let him take over - they absolutely shouldn't. But this is all making me wonder why Jim has to go darker to take him down. Oswald basically wants to be the new Falcone, and Falcone was someone the GCPD tolerated because they were corrupt and Falcone was too powerful. Again, not what they should be doing, but it really feels like taking him down wouldn't require a "dark turn" - rather would just require doing their damn jobs and not turning a blind eye to his criminal activities. 

I hope that they are just talking in generalities and what we see on the screen this fall is actually pretty different than what they are making it sound like now (that's happened plenty of times before). I really like the season finale because I thought they set things up to go in interesting directions, but they need to follow through on that and not just go back to recycling old ideas again. And really - "darker Jim" may not be the place to go anymore, so I hope this is him bottoming out and then doing a 180. Because right now I have no compelling reason to cheer for him over the villain, who is way more compelling and has had the moral high ground on our "hero" way too often.

[Danielg342]

Well, Jim could rape someone...but network TV never goes for that.

What I would like is that S4 is about "Gotham at peace", with the GCPD and Penguin having an uneasy truce where the GCPD tolerates Penguin's existence since his cronies are so effective at capturing criminals that are just "beyond the law". Maybe here Bruce joins with Penguin because Bruce doesn't feel the law helps him anymore.

Inevitably, it becomes a false peace, as Penguin can't control his ego and starts acting like a dictator, as Gotham's new peace means that people are no longer afraid to speak their minds. Seeing Penguin forfeit his morals forces Bruce to go back to the law in order to maintain his, bringing with him indispensable skills he learned from the bad guys that he can now give in service to the GCPD.

[DR14]

I would like to see more Bruce/Oswald scenes myself.  IIRC they've had one brief interaction in "Anything For You" but that's it.

[Perfect Xero]

Bruce could start to develop his Matches identity/disguise, though I don't know if there's any way that they could pull it off without it being ridiculous that people don't recognize Bruce Wayne. Of course if glasses and a different hairstyle can work for Clark and Kara, I guess it could work for young Bruce.

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, DR14 said:

I would like to see more Bruce/Oswald scenes myself.  IIRC they've had one brief interaction in "Anything For You" but that's it.

When did that happen? I don't recall it myself. I remember a small scene in S1 where Oswald walked past where Bruce was and Oswald looked back, but that's as far as I can recall Bruce interacting with Oswald in any capacity.

I do think it's time Bruce starts developing relationships with Oswald and Ed. It doesn't say much about them having personal animosity towards each other if they never get a chance to develop it.

[DR14]

Bruce and Alfred were talking to him in the Sirens club, Bruce then sees Selina and leaves to go see her.

Here's a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7TccK5v5-Y

[Miss Dee]

Gotham poster for SDCC.

YES.

[Danielg342]

Is that Bruce with a cape?

[Miss Dee]

I think it's whatever he was wearing in the Season 3 finale. I just love the promise of it, and the potential title.

[Kathemy]

<Doux> <Gotham: Zero Year>

My breakdown of the show thus far and the coming season.

[Kostgard]

The cast is doing press at Comic Con today, and I think their panel (that should also show a video) is later this afternoon.

One of their interviews is here. They are pretty much answering the same questions over and over again, so there's not a lot of variety between the interviews. 

The main things we know so far are:

- Oswald took advantage of the power vacuum left at the end of season three and has indeed risen back to the top, even more powerful than when he was mayor, really, since he seems to also control the police department.

- Jim gets a new (probably evil) ally in trying to take Oswald down, and BM revealed that it is Falcone's daughter (how many kids does this guy have tucked away?). They haven't revealed the actress playing her yet, so I guess it might be a "name" actress. So I guess kinda back to the mob war stuff except this time with Falcone's kid.

- Everyone keeps making "fire and ice" comments regarding Oswald and Ed and Cory keeps making "I have a burning question" type puns, so are these hints as to how he will get out of the ice? Does he just burn down the club? Does Firefly help him?

- Speaking of, someone found this poster advertising the Iceberg Lounge where we see that Oswald did indeed make good on his promise to make Ed the centerpiece in his new club, and he's also making dubious choices about his hair.

- Not much so far on Selina and Tabitha, other than they are indeed working together and will join back up with Babs at some point.

- Babs apparently has some connection to Ra's. I saw some people speculate that Babs is revived via the Lazarus Pool, and maybe they are right. They are saying that Babs has changed again, and isn't that sometimes an effect the pool has on people?

- Not much on Bruce and/or Alfred that we didn't already know.

 - This is the poster they are giving out.

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Kathemy said:

There is a strong possibility this will turn out to be the show's final season. 

I don't think it will be. The ratings aren't magnificent but they're also not bad either. I believe FOX will likely give the show a fifth season to "wrap everything up" and get the show to 100 episodes before cancelling it. This was its signature show for quite a while and I believe it's got a very devoted fanbase, so the odds are good we'll get a proper closure.

Of course, I still hold out hope that this cast will be used to reboot the Batman movie franchise, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

42 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

The cast is doing press at Comic Con today, and I think their panel (that should also show a video) is later this afternoon.

One of their interviews is here. They are pretty much answering the same questions over and over again, so there's not a lot of variety between the interviews. 

The main things we know so far are:

1. Oswald took advantage of the power vacuum left at the end of season three and has indeed risen back to the top, even more powerful than when he was mayor, really, since he seems to also control the police department.
2. Jim gets a new (probably evil) ally in trying to take Oswald down, and BM revealed that it is Falcone's daughter (how many kids does this guy have tucked away?). They haven't revealed the actress playing her yet, so I guess it might be a "name" actress. So I guess kinda back to the mob war stuff except this time with Falcone's kid.
3. Everyone keeps making "fire and ice" comments regarding Oswald and Ed and Cory keeps making "I have a burning question" type puns, so are these hints as to how he will get out of the ice? Does he just burn down the club? Does Firefly help him?
4. Speaking of, someone found this poster advertising the Iceberg Lounge where we see that Oswald did indeed make good on his promise to make Ed the centerpiece in his new club, and he's also making dubious choices about his hair.
5. Not much so far on Selina and Tabitha, other than they are indeed working together and will join back up with Babs at some point.
6. Babs apparently has some connection to Ra's. I saw some people speculate that Babs is revived via the Lazarus Pool, and maybe they are right. They are saying that Babs has changed again, and isn't that sometimes an effect the pool has on people.
7. Not much on Bruce and/or Alfred that we didn't already know.
8. This is the poster they are giving out.

1. I find that interesting, especially because it may get Harvey Bullock more involved with the plot. I'd probably say his most memorable moment with Oswald was when he said that seeing him in prison "makes me feel calm...like a bonsai tree", so it could be fun seeing Bullock and Oswald butt heads. It could even lead to some interesting possibilities- one, Harvey could develop actual respect for Oswald and perhaps become evil himself (even though I find that prospect a bit of a groaner, it'd be more natural than some of the "turns to evil" progressions we've seen on this show) and two, Harvey could get so frustrated with Oswald that the idea of Batman intrigues him and eventually convinces Jim of that idea as well.
2. I bet Falcone's daughter will also be a love interest for Jim. They never seem to shy away from that stuff.
3. I'd say it's even money that Firefly helps The Riddler, although that would involve betraying Oswald. Not that she wouldn't be capable of it.
4. Looks pretty cool, although methinks not wrapping it up in some kind of sealed, air-tight container would mean that the fixture would melt pretty quickly...but that's more of a nitpick.
5. Yup...always keep the women together. Hollywood gets too predictable.
6. Whatever happens, I just hope Barbara gets a decent story this time. She just seems to do nothing except cackle and go along with other people's plans.
7. A pity, that- especially since Alfred seems to be getting sidelined more and more.
8. Interesting. You'll notice the reflections in the puddle are not of those standing up but are who, I presume, are the show's villains- Barbara, Tabitha, Oswald, Ed and Selina. The only questions I have are:
   
   1) Is the show eventually going to coalesce to having a "Team Heroes" comprised of Jim (The Leader), Harvey (The Lancer), Alfred (The Smart Guy), Bruce (The Muscle) and whomever the woman is (The Heart) vs. a "Team Villains" comprised of Oswald (The Leader), Ed (The Lancer), Barbara (The Smart One), Tabitha (The Muscle) and Selina (The Heart)? I think that could be a fun idea.
   2) What happens to Lucius Fox? Is he gone?
   3) Who is the woman in the picture? Lee or the new woman No. 2 hinted at?

[Kostgard]

More info from the Comic Con panel according to the Tweets of people there:

 

- Ra's is the one who revives Barbara and he trains her(!) So she may survive via Lazarus pool.

- Bruce will start to get body armor  and weapons, but they insist he is not yet Batman

- Ed and Solomon Grundy will pair up (Ed must really be a changed man out of the ice since that is about the last person I could imagine him teaming up with).

- Lee returns but will be darker (*SIGH*) and struggling with the dumbass decisions she made last season. She is also hanging out with Ed and Solomon (again, this is kind of a head scratcher since she wasn't exactly found of Ed after he killed Kringle). At least she's away from Jim? (I agree that Falcone's daughter will probably be a love interest).

- Oswald teams up with Zsasz (awesome)

- The first half of the season will be "The Long Halloween" inspired, the second half "Year One" inspired

- Ben McKenzie wrote episode four. It will focus mainly on Bruce and Ra's. 

- Apparently all of Cory's "fire" and "fire and ice" puns were due to talking points given to him by Fox (which would explain why the cast cracked up every time he worked one in. I guess the promo guys at Fox really want us know FIRE AND ICE).

Here is the promo video they showed. It's mostly a season three recap, then the last minute is season four footage.

 

ETA: Crystal Reed will be playing Falcone's daughter. Apparently she was on Teen Wolf (a show I never watched).

Also, in non-Con news, they are casting for Penguin look-alikes. I hope Oswald doesn't pull the same move he did back in season two where he confused people with a pack of penguins. I wonder if maybe it will be a hallucination brought on by Scarecrow's fear toxin. There are a couple characters on this show who have dreamed/hallucinated Oswald (Jim and Ed) and both of them are probably going up against him this season, so it would be feasible that some fear toxin could make them see Penguins everywhere.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Kostgard

[Proteus]

Thanks to everyone for the con reports. I'm trying my best not to get hopeful about the Barbara/Tabitha/Selina scoops.

[Kathemy]

If you look at the trailer, the footage of Bruce in the mask and hood in the doorway reminds me much less of Batman than of Damian Wayne...

[AmandaCorona]

21 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I don't think it will be. The ratings aren't magnificent but they're also not bad either. I believe FOX will likely give the show a fifth season to "wrap everything up" and get the show to 100 episodes before cancelling it. This was its signature show for quite a while and I believe it's got a very devoted fanbase, so the odds are good we'll get a proper closure.

Of course, I still hold out hope that this cast will be used to reboot the Batman movie franchise, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

1. I find that interesting, especially because it may get Harvey Bullock more involved with the plot. I'd probably say his most memorable moment with Oswald was when he said that seeing him in prison "makes me feel calm...like a bonsai tree", so it could be fun seeing Bullock and Oswald butt heads. It could even lead to some interesting possibilities- one, Harvey could develop actual respect for Oswald and perhaps become evil himself (even though I find that prospect a bit of a groaner, it'd be more natural than some of the "turns to evil" progressions we've seen on this show) and two, Harvey could get so frustrated with Oswald that the idea of Batman intrigues him and eventually convinces Jim of that idea as well.
2. I bet Falcone's daughter will also be a love interest for Jim. They never seem to shy away from that stuff.
3. I'd say it's even money that Firefly helps The Riddler, although that would involve betraying Oswald. Not that she wouldn't be capable of it.
4. Looks pretty cool, although methinks not wrapping it up in some kind of sealed, air-tight container would mean that the fixture would melt pretty quickly...but that's more of a nitpick.
5. Yup...always keep the women together. Hollywood gets too predictable.
6. Whatever happens, I just hope Barbara gets a decent story this time. She just seems to do nothing except cackle and go along with other people's plans.
7. A pity, that- especially since Alfred seems to be getting sidelined more and more.
8. Interesting. You'll notice the reflections in the puddle are not of those standing up but are who, I presume, are the show's villains- Barbara, Tabitha, Oswald, Ed and Selina. The only questions I have are:
   
   1) Is the show eventually going to coalesce to having a "Team Heroes" comprised of Jim (The Leader), Harvey (The Lancer), Alfred (The Smart Guy), Bruce (The Muscle) and whomever the woman is (The Heart) vs. a "Team Villains" comprised of Oswald (The Leader), Ed (The Lancer), Barbara (The Smart One), Tabitha (The Muscle) and Selina (The Heart)? I think that could be a fun idea.
   2) What happens to Lucius Fox? Is he gone?
   3) Who is the woman in the picture? Lee or the new woman No. 2 hinted at?

Answering #7. Why is it so hard for the producers to understand that people like me want to see more Alfred. Learn more about his backstory. This is such disappointing news. I am not happy about hearing this.

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, AmandaCorona said:

Answering #7. Why is it so hard for the producers to understand that people like me want to see more Alfred. Learn more about his backstory. This is such disappointing news. I am not happy about hearing this.

I wouldn't take the lack of news on Alfred as an indicator of anything - Sean Pertwee wasn't there for most of those interviews which took place in the morning. He was originally scheduled to be filming this weekend, but finished early and flew out to Comic Con, getting there about midday (there's actually some adorable pics/video out there where he surprises his cast mates by popping up in the booth where they were signing autographs and they all jumped up and hugged him).  Alfred is probably going to have a lot to do in the push-pull with Ra's over who will have influence over Bruce. And I think someone said Alfred will actually have some conflict with Jim as well.

Here's some footage of the panel they did.

ETA:This has some quotes from Sean about what happens with Alfred this season:

 

Quote

Alfred and Bruce will take on more of a father-son relationship than ever before, Sean Pertwee teased, but that's not without some "discombobulation," thanks to Bruce's simultaneously growing relationship with Ra's al Ghul.

“You’ll see in the middle of the season who Alfred really is, which I’m really excited about,” Pertwee told SYFY WIRE. “You’ll see Alfred out on his rear and see who he really is and it’s not necessarily a good look. You’re going to find out indirectly about the person he was, of which he’s not proud. He has as many demons — more demons — than Bruce has.”

Edited July 23, 2017 by Kostgard

[AmandaCorona]

4 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I wouldn't take the lack of news on Alfred as an indicator of anything - Sean Pertwee wasn't there for most of those interviews which took place in the morning. He was originally scheduled to be filming this weekend, but finished early and flew out to Comic Con, getting there about midday (there's actually some adorable pics/video out there where he surprises his cast mates by popping up in the booth where they were signing autographs and they all jumped up and hugged him).  Alfred is probably going to have a lot to do in the push-pull with Ra's over who will have influence over Bruce. And I think someone said Alfred will actually have some conflict with Jim as well.

Here's some footage of the panel they did.

ETA:This has some quotes from Sean about what happens with Alfred this season:

 

Thank you so much. I am very happy with this information. You made my day.

[Kostgard]

This part from the article linked previously also looks interesting:

Quote

Perhaps the strangest relationship we'll see in Gotham next year, though, will be the bizarre little family unit formed of Solomon Grundy, The Riddler, and a "Dark Lee." That is, once Cory Michael Smith's Riddler gets out of the block of ice in the middle of the Iceburg Lounge, where he starts the season.

That'll lead to "another identity crisis for him," Smith tells us. "His mind isn't functioning at the level that it was, and whether that can be cured or fixed, he doesn't know." He'll join Lee and Grundy, who've been through their own changes that make them "new people to interact with." Lee will be dealing with the guilt from releasing the virus.

This is gonna make me feel terrible for Ed. His intelligence is obviously his greatest asset, so that will be awful to lose that (even if it is temporary). I haven't seen it printed, but someone on Twitter said that Grundy's origin is very similar to the comics in that he does come out of a swamp. And he got there because the hospital basically decided to dump him there (!). Between that and the general conditions at Arkham, I think Bruce would be doing the city a much bigger favor if he threw some money at the healthcare system. 

But maybe this explains why Lee is hanging around Ed and Grundy, two brain-damaged guys. Maybe she's trying to help them. 

[Proteus]

I saw a comment floating around Twitter that it was said at the panel something about Barbara and Tabitha becoming Huntress and Tigress. Anyone else hear this?

[tv echo]

San Diego Comic-Con: Big News for the Small Screen
By Tim  July 25th, 2017
http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/07/25/san-diego-comic-con-big-news-for-the-small-screen?sf100871484=1

Quote

Gotham

The cast of Gotham is expanding as well, as Teen Wolf’s Crystal Reed enters the story in Season 4 as Sofia Falcone, who returns to Gotham after a decade of running her family’s operation in the south. Unfortunately, Sofia isn’t seen in the exciting highlight reel/trailer that was shown during Gotham’s  Comic-Con panel, but plenty of great stuff was, including a brief glimpse of what appears to be the Iceberg Lounge’s opening, both Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle kicking some street thug butt and the long-awaited return of the Scarecrow.

Edited July 27, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Also, Erin Richards teased that this new "iteration" of Barbara is her favorite so far and might be her "final evolution into her best self"...

Gotham's Ben Mckenzie Teases Gordon's Dark Path In Season 4 | SDCC 2017 | Entertainment Weekly
Published on Jul 24, 2017, by Entertainment Weekly

Edited July 28, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Ben McKenzie said that Jim Gordon was supposed to become Talon (of the Court of Owls) this past season, but plans changed so it didn't happen. Ben also said that he's writing an episode about Ra's and Bruce this season...

Gotham Season 4 Preview & Interview | Comic-Con 2017 | TVLine
Published on Jul 22, 2017, by TVLine

Edited July 28, 2017 by tv echo

[Kathemy]

Well, that's the first solid confirmation that the show was retooled during the third season, as I suspected.

[Spartan Girl]

The fact that Lee is coming back only solidifies my resolve to quit this show.

[darkestboy]

I'm kind of hoping that this season gives Oswald a love interest. Not Nygma but someone who can challenge, even if it's just for a few episodes.

[Kostgard]

9 hours ago, darkestboy said:

I'm kind of hoping that this season gives Oswald a love interest. Not Nygma but someone who can challenge, even if it's just for a few episodes.

That would be interesting, but I feel like it won't happen for a couple reasons. First, Oswald said that his mother told him "life only gives you one true love" and he tends to take what his mother told him as gospel, so if he believes Ed was "the one" and it didn't work out, he may not think there is anyone else out there for him. The second reason is he told told Ed that he allowed his love for him to make him weak, and he never wanted to let that happen again (hence keeping Ed trapped in ice around as a reminder not to do that), so based on that, I get the feeling that he's sort of shutting that part of himself down again.

In the show's other bromance, I saw that Ben McKenzie said in an interview that Jim is really the only one who isn't down with Oswald essentially taking over the city, and that not even Harvey is on board with fighting it, which is why Jim turns to Falcone's daughter for help. I wonder if it is a situation where it isn't exactly great that a criminal is running the show, but that under Oswald Gotham actually runs a little bit better like it did when he was mayor (all things being relative, of course. "Good" or "Better" for Gotham would be considered "Total Disaster" anywhere else) and Harvey is okay with that. Or if Harvey is just tired of Jim's non-sense and doesn't think that teaming up with another criminal (one whose brother Jim killed, something that can't sit well with her, even if he had good reason) is the way to go. I'm just weirdly looking forward to a situation where Harvey says "No" to Jim. It's a long time coming.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

My only fear is that I don't want Jim's and Harvey's disagreements to turn into a rift. One, because the show already did that with Oswald and Ed and Bruce and Selina so it's tiring. Two, Jim and Harvey are all that's practically left of the "good" guys on this show and it'd be nice if the show was able to prove it can have characters that can maintain their moral compasses despite all the temptation in the world to drop them.

If this turns into "Jim the idealist" vs "Harvey the pragmatist" and both are shown to be right every now and then, I'd be okay with that. Bullock's role has always been to rein in Jim Gordon and at no point should that change. In fact, things being "better" under Oswald would be a good way to bring back that aspect to Harvey's character, as it's been missing lately.

...but if this turns into some way to make Jim or Harvey evil or make Jim "the smartest guy in the room" then I'm not sure I can accept that.

[Kostgard]

10 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

My only fear is that I don't want Jim's and Harvey's disagreements to turn into a rift. One, because the show already did that with Oswald and Ed and Bruce and Selina so it's tiring. Two, Jim and Harvey are all that's practically left of the "good" guys on this show and it'd be nice if the show was able to prove it can have characters that can maintain their moral compasses despite all the temptation in the world to drop them.

If this turns into "Jim the idealist" vs "Harvey the pragmatist" and both are shown to be right every now and then, I'd be okay with that. Bullock's role has always been to rein in Jim Gordon and at no point should that change. In fact, things being "better" under Oswald would be a good way to bring back that aspect to Harvey's character, as it's been missing lately.

...but if this turns into some way to make Jim or Harvey evil or make Jim "the smartest guy in the room" then I'm not sure I can accept that.

I'm good with it if it actually causes Jim to question his own actions. Right now, Jim is practically a villain on this show. He is often just as bad as the people he's trying to fight. I mean, Bruce (with help from Alfred) has figured out that he needs to set up some limits for himself, and to establish a moral code that he will stick to in order to keep himself from being as bad as the people he will eventually fight. Jim has set up no such moral code for himself, committing various crimes (up to and including murder) all while claiming that it is for the greater good, but the ends really don't justify the means in my opinion. And they keep talking about Jim "going darker"  - seriously? How much darker can he get? All he pretty much has left to do is just declare himself a villain. Obviously "Jim has a serious dark side" is an on-going theme on this show, but if he's going to be one of the few heroes in Gotham he's supposed to be, he's gotta pull himself out of his nosedive. 

I'm sure Harvey will be against any action at first because he is a pragmatist. If things are marginally "better" under Oswald because he's organizing and filtering all the crime, Harvey's probably fine with not rocking the boat. But he usually gets on board with Jim's plans eventually because on some level he knows these criminals should be stopped. But the two of them really walked all over all sorts of lines last season, Harvey warned that sooner or later he was going to say "no" to Jim's shenanigans, and it's time for that to happen. I think Jim has to lose Harvey's support to finally figure out that he's going too far and maybe he should stop being as bad as the criminals he goes up against.

[Danielg342]

On 11/08/2017 at 0:53 PM, Kostgard said:

I think Jim has to lose Harvey's support to finally figure out that he's going too far and maybe he should stop being as bad as the criminals he goes up against.

I don't disagree that this should happen- I feel like this sounds like a bit of a rehash of the Blackgate storyline and what the fallout from that should have been.

However, if losing Bullock's support makes Jim's turnaround back to the light a permanent one, I can get behind it.

[ChristiKRN]

Glad to hear something about Harvey. I was worried that we were going to see less of him this season, with Donal Logue's daughter missing for a couple of weeks (and fortunately found). Has anyone heard if Donal is missing a few episodes/even back to filming yet? 

[TobinAlbers]

On 7/22/2017 at 5:26 PM, Kostgard said:

Babs apparently has some connection to Ra's. I saw some people speculate that Babs is revived via the Lazarus Pool, and maybe they are right. They are saying that Babs has changed again, and isn't that sometimes an effect the pool has on people?

Would the show go there and have Babs be 'reborn' as this show's Nyssa since Talia has to be left for Bruce to hook up with later. It is a hoot that Babs finds a father figure/mentor in Ra's.

I love Morena but Lee has really run her course after being mangled. Basically it seems like with Babs moved off of Jim's crazy ex, they're dropping Lee in to fill the void.

With Ra's in play, Talia can't be too far behind, but I hope we get an appearance of a teen Zatanna so Bruce has at least ONE nice sweet magically badass girl his age to interact with.

[tv echo]

Gotham: Get a first look at Gordon's potential new love interest
SAMANTHA HIGHFILL  AUGUST 15, 2017
http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/15/gotham-first-look-crystal-reed-sofia-falcone/

Quote

Jim Gordon’s love life is about as complicated as the politics of Gotham City. And although Lee (Morena Baccarin) surely won’t stay out of Gotham for long, her decision to leave town in the season 3 finale is one of many factors that will see Jim (Ben McKenzie) going down a “dark path” when the show returns. Another factor? Jim’s career.

“We’re going to see Jim make, in some ways, big steps toward I guess what you would call the commissionership,” executive producer John Stephens tells EW. “But also we’re going to see Jim, in his quest to save the city, cross different ethical lines than he ever did before. It’s going to bring him to an ethical nadir that we haven’t seen him at, and it’s going to be told through the context of a relationship that he has with Sofia Falcone, the daughter of Don Falcone, who’s played by Crystal Reed this year. And that’s going to be a really compelling and interesting relationship.”

Gotham Season 4 Adds Prison Break Baddie, Casts Buddy for Bruce
By Matt Webb Mitovich / August 18 2017, 1:29 PM PDT
http://tvline.com/2017/08/18/gotham-season-4-marina-benedict-benjamin-stockham/

Quote

Marina Benedict, who played an ice-cold assassin on Fox’s Prison Break revival, now has Gotham in her crosshairs.

Also new for Season 4 of the comic books-based drama is Benjamin Stockham (About a Boy‘s… boy), who will befriend young Master Wayne.

TVLine has learned exclusively that Benedict is set to recur as Cherry, the owner of a fight club in The Narrows aka Gotham’s most dangerous neighborhood. Described as edgy and tough, Cherry’s club represents the seat of power in an otherwise lawless part of the city. As Ed Nygma, Solomon Grundy (fka Butch) and other characters move through the fight club, Cherry will serve as an ally, sometimes a powerful adversary.
*  *  *
Stockham meanwhile will guest-star as Alex Winthrop, the bookish grandson of a museum curator whom Bruce comes in contact with when tracking a mysterious artifact. When dangerous forces target said object, the lads go on the run, ultimately forcing Bruce to make a choice no one should ever have to make.

Edited August 19, 2017 by tv echo

[Danielg342]

Interesting that Falcone and Jim have dinner together. I find it hard to believe that would happen- Falcone would be upset that Jim killed his son. I could have perhaps understood Sofia reaching out to Jim on her own (because there's nothing that suggested the Falcone siblings were necessarily cordial with each other), but Falcone himself? Hard to believe.

I'll see how they handle it, of course, but it still looks like the show's trend to do things "because, plot" is holding firm.

[Kostgard]

20 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Interesting that Falcone and Jim have dinner together. I find it hard to believe that would happen- Falcone would be upset that Jim killed his son. I could have perhaps understood Sofia reaching out to Jim on her own (because there's nothing that suggested the Falcone siblings were necessarily cordial with each other), but Falcone himself? Hard to believe.

I'll see how they handle it, of course, but it still looks like the show's trend to do things "because, plot" is holding firm.

 

This is why I think/hope this alliance will bite Jim in the ass. I mean, first of all, he's a cop partnering with a mobster to solve his problems. That doesn't seem like smart thinking. And then he's partnering with the father/sister of the man he killed. Even if they decided he was justified in killing Mario, I can't imagine they will just forgive and forget.

 

And Entertainment Weekly confirmed that Sofia is a love interest, which...blerg. What this show doesn't need is more of Jim's love life.

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Kostgard said:

 

This is why I think/hope this alliance will bite Jim in the ass. I mean, first of all, he's a cop partnering with a mobster to solve his problems. That doesn't seem like smart thinking. And then he's partnering with the father/sister of the man he killed. Even if they decided he was justified in killing Mario, I can't imagine they will just forgive and forget.

 

And Entertainment Weekly confirmed that Sofia is a love interest, which...blerg. What this show doesn't need is more of Jim's love life.

I would agree. The show seems to forget that Harvey Bullock is there and he's supposed to be Gordon's partner, so why Bullock isn't involved in this is mystifying.

Is Crystal Reed going to be a regular or recurring? That could be a clue regarding her longevity.

[Miss Dee]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I would agree. The show seems to forget that Harvey Bullock is there and he's supposed to be Gordon's partner, so why Bullock isn't involved in this is mystifying.

Is Crystal Reed going to be a regular or recurring? That could be a clue regarding her longevity.

I'm hoping this means rather than Harvey not being involved, this is a reversal of Season 1 where Jim is a bit crooked and Harvey is the suspicious one trying to toe the line.

[Danielg342]

12 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

I'm hoping this means rather than Harvey not being involved, this is a reversal of Season 1 where Jim is a bit crooked and Harvey is the suspicious one trying to toe the line.

I would get behind that.

[Kostgard]

On 8/20/2017 at 5:36 PM, Danielg342 said:

I would agree. The show seems to forget that Harvey Bullock is there and he's supposed to be Gordon's partner, so why Bullock isn't involved in this is mystifying.

Is Crystal Reed going to be a regular or recurring? That could be a clue regarding her longevity.

I read earlier that Harvey doesn't want to rock the boat after Oswald takes over basically everything (either because things are better with Oswald controlling the crime or he just doesn't want to go up against him)  and refuses to get on board with Jim's probably illegal methods, so Jim turns to Sofia. 

I can't remember the source, but I read earlier today or yesterday that Lee is supposed to become a major force in Gotham, which...meh. Don't care. Last season really soured me on her character and it feels like they keep trying to make Lee happen and I just don't care.

[Danielg342]

18 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

I read earlier that Harvey doesn't want to rock the boat after Oswald takes over basically everything (either because things are better with Oswald controlling the crime or he just doesn't want to go up against him)  and refuses to get on board with Jim's probably illegal methods, so Jim turns to Sofia. 

Right. I seem to remember that too. I could probably buy that Harvey the pragmatist would think "why mess up something that works?" It just feels like the show's using that to make an excuse to simply use Harvey to make the occasional quip about how things are and leave it at that, instead of realizing he's well more rounded than that.

In an alternate scenario, it might have made more sense that Harvey, being the pragmatist, thinks that, while he can tolerate Penguin, he knows he's still got to be defeated. Since legal options don't work, Harvey could have enlisted Sofia to work with Jim. Maybe Sofia works as a mole and does to Oswald what he did to Maroni back in S1. Yeah, it'd be another iteration of "Oswald has everything until someone takes it away from him" storyline, but I think this might be a good call back to the earlier seasons, and watching Oswald succumb to something that's, frankly, more realistic than the stuff they've done to him would be far better.

36 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

I can't remember the source, but I read earlier today or yesterday that Lee is supposed to become a major force in Gotham, which...meh. Don't care. Last season really soured me on her character and it feels like they keep trying to make Lee happen and I just don't care.

Lee typifies to me everything that's wrong with the show- there's too many characters and not enough organization. I've lost count how many times in S3 where I mentioned that characters just seemed to do things because the plot needs them to do it- not because said character would actually do what they're doing or even think about doing what they're doing. It's bad enough when those characters are Oswald and Harvey, characters that have actually had some development and definition- it's even worse when you get to Lee, who I'm not sure the writers' room was ever on board with and tagged her with rudimentary stories like being Jim's love interest if they gave her anything to do at all.

...and now they want us to get excited about her? Get real.

Fine, I get it- network execs don't like shows that don't have at least one prominent female character. Which is not necessarily a bad thing- it's just that you need to pick the right characters, and so far there's just nothing Lee has done to make me think she'd be a compelling character.

I hope I'm wrong and this "dark Lee" is actually kind of cool (although I still wonder why she'd do anything with Ed after he killed Kristin Kringle) because Morena Baccarin should never be wasted...but I'm not holding my breath.

[Kostgard]

18 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

 

In an alternate scenario, it might have made more sense that Harvey, being the pragmatist, thinks that, while he can tolerate Penguin, he knows he's still got to be defeated. Since legal options don't work, Harvey could have enlisted Sofia to work with Jim. Maybe Sofia works as a mole and does to Oswald what he did to Maroni back in S1. Yeah, it'd be another iteration of "Oswald has everything until someone takes it away from him" storyline, but I think this might be a good call back to the earlier seasons, and watching Oswald succumb to something that's, frankly, more realistic than the stuff they've done to him would be far better.

That may be something. According to an Instagram pic RLT posted, Oswald is at Sofia's home at some point, so it seems they do come into contact. And RLT was at a con this weekend where he mentioned that Oswald tries the "Love stinks. I don't need anyone" approach, but that is unsustainable, and someone comes into his life who helps him see another side of himself. Is this Sofia and he thinks she's a friend on his side? 

 

To me, that would only be interesting if she actually triple-crosses Jim while she double-crosses Oswald. After all, her father/family has reason to hate them both. But I still have a huge issue with that because this show has a problem with going back to the same well over and over again, and not only is that repetitive for the viewer, it stalls out character development to have the characters fall into the same traps over and over again, and go through the same cycles over and over again. At this point, Oswald should be able to sniff out someone manipulating him, because manipulation is sort of his thing. 

 

And Lee...*sigh*. She supposedly feels guilty for her part in launching the virus on the city, so her solution is to become darker and become a power-player? What? It would make more sense if she tried to do penance and opened up a medical clinic to help the less fortunate in town (like people who lost everything in the violence unleashed by the virus), and she gets entrenched in the criminal underworld that way because the criminals come to her for help because they know she won't turn them away and she won't call the cops. And that could be how she teams up with Nygma and Butch/Solomon - two people who clearly need her help, what with the brain freeze and zombification.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Lee...*sigh*. She supposedly feels guilty for her part in launching the virus on the city, so her solution is to become darker and become a power-player?

It's doubly annoying because what exactly is Lee within Gotham? She hasn't exactly done anything that would warrant anyone to think she's something important in the city, so why would she suddenly become a "power player"? Because the storywriters have her as a character and she needs something to do?

I like the idea of an "anti-viral" hospital- it'd be a better way for her to be introduced to the "dark side".

4 hours ago, Kostgard said:

To me, that would only be interesting if she actually triple-crosses Jim while she double-crosses Oswald. After all, her father/family has reason to hate them both. But I still have a huge issue with that because this show has a problem with going back to the same well over and over again, and not only is that repetitive for the viewer, it stalls out character development to have the characters fall into the same traps over and over again, and go through the same cycles over and over again. At this point, Oswald should be able to sniff out someone manipulating him, because manipulation is sort of his thing.

I had my own trepidation writing my suggestion for precisely this point. Of course, my hope is that Jim/Harvey vs. Oswald could be something of a continual thing and that Oswald stays in power throughout this season and maybe into S5. It might even make for a better story if Oswald shows he can outwit the police and give the loonies someone to look up to- and maybe give The Joker an inspiration.

Maybe, going further, The Joker comes to help Oswald and help him stay in power, with Oswald maybe even seeing The Joker as some kind of protege. Maybe this continual hold on to power is what finally makes Jim and Harvey turn to Bruce, convincing him that this city really needs a vigilante to clean up the city. Maybe- ulp- The Joker kills Harvey* which is why Jim turns to Bruce- because he's got nothing left.

*I should probably say that the only way I could accept this is if this happens in the series finale. I don't believe I could accept it any other way.

[Danielg342]

So TVGuide has its fall preview up and this is what they have to say about Gotham:

http://www.tvguide.com/special/fall-preview/gallery/2017-returning-fall-shows/28/

Quote

Gotham (Fox)

Premieres: Thursday, Sept. 24 at 8/7c

Where We Left Off: Bruce (David Mazouz) took another big step toward becoming the Dark Knight after escaping the brainwashing of the Court of Owls, while Selina (Camren Bicondova) was on the fast track to fulfill her Catwoman destiny. Meanwhile, Jim (Ben McKenzie) was able to get his hands on the cure for the outbreak of the Tetch virus, which drove a large part of the population of Gotham to insanity. Of course, he do so just in time to send Lee (Morena Baccarin) on her way to find happiness without him. Elsewhere, Penguin's (Robin Lord Taylor) feud with Ed (Cory Michael Smith) came to an end, with Ed becoming a frozen centerpiece in Penguin's nightclub.

The Scoop: Ra's al Ghul (Alexander Siddig) is back in the fold, returning to help put the finishing touches on Bruce's transition into becoming Batman in Season 4. The famed leader of the League of Assassins will "snap" the last twig of Bruce's innocence, as Siddig puts it, plunging the young man further down the dark path to becoming his vigilante alter ego. "My character has been on a centuries long mission to locate Bruce and finally finds him, and will do anything he can to get his hands on him, to manipulate him into what [Ra's] wants him to be," Siddig says. "That is going to be Bruce's biggest challenge. Just how dark will he go? How far is he prepared to follow Ra's al Guhl?" According to the actor, Season 4 is going to be "a season so far of extremes" -- so get ready for things to get even darker on Gotham.

I think the last point gets to me. So far on Gotham they've done everything from murderous sprees to a killer virus to chemically-induced freaks to cannibals to the regenerated dead to damsels in distress to even rape (well, it was more of a false rape accusation...but still).

Obviously, the question has to be- how much darker can things actually get on this show? They've pretty much covered everything you'd think network TV would allow, so where this show can go I have no idea.

I also believe it's patently obvious the producers of this show have lost their marbles. They seem to care very little about characterization or narratives, when what should be selling this show is the characters. This was supposed to be a "Batman prequel that shows how the villains- and Bats- came to be". If that's not an indicator that this show should be character-driven, I don't know what is.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Danielg342

[tv echo]

Spoiler Room: Scoop on Grey's Anatomy, Supernatural, The Flash and more
NATALIE ABRAMS   AUGUST 24, 2017 
http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/24/spoiler-room-greys-anatomy-supernatural-flash/

Quote

Anything on Butch’s turn as Solomon Grundy when Gotham returns? — Kyle
Well, he won’t appear in the premiere, but when he does resurface, things will be very different for the character formerly known as Butch. “He’s been in a vegetative state at Gotham General and so in order to clear up space for more beds, the administrators at the hospital have him dumped in Slaughter Swamp, as one does in Gotham,” executive producer John Stephens says. “So he emerges reborn out of Slaughter Swamp as the character we know as Solomon Grundy.” Bonus scoop? Stephens reveals that the first person Solomon will run into is none other than Ed Nygma, and seeing as how Solomon has no memory of Ed, “we begin the story of a very unlikely friendship between these two who are sworn enemies but now, all of a sudden in season 4, are best friends as they move through Gotham.”

[Horsesrunwild]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

So TVGuide has its fall preview up and this is what they have to say about Gotham:

http://www.tvguide.com/special/fall-preview/gallery/2017-returning-fall-shows/28/

I think the last point gets to me. So far on Gotham they've done everything from murderous sprees to a killer virus to chemically-induced freaks to cannibals to the regenerated dead to damsels in distress to even rape (well, it was more of a false rape accusation...but still).

Obviously, the question has to be- how much darker can things actually get on this show? They've pretty much covered everything you'd think network TV would allow, so where this show can go I have no idea.

I also believe it's patently obvious the producers of this show have lost their marbles. They seem to care very little about characterization or narratives, when what should be selling this show is the characters. This was supposed to be a "Batman prequel that shows how the villains- and Bats- came to be". If that's not an indicator that this show should be character-driven, I don't know what is.

TVGuide has the wrong premiere date. I guess Fox forgot to tell them they changed the premiere date. How are people going to know when Gotham premieres now? I worry about the premiere numbers on a new night.

[Danielg342]

On 25/08/2017 at 11:07 AM, Horsesrunwild said:

TVGuide has the wrong premiere date. I guess Fox forgot to tell them they changed the premiere date. How are people going to know when Gotham premieres now? I worry about the premiere numbers on a new night.

September 24 is actually a Sunday- so it's the right week, but the wrong day. TVGuide still has the error as of this writing.

[tv echo]

GOTHAM SEASON 4: Jim Gordon vs. Bruce Wayne
Published on Sep 4, 2017, by DC Entertainment

[tv echo]

Spoiler Room: Scoop on Supergirl, Arrow, The Good Place and more
NATALIE ABRAMS  SEPTEMBER 7, 2017 
http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/07/spoiler-room-supergirl-arrow-good-place/

Quote

Anything on Scarecrow’s time in Gotham? — Adam
If you’re a Scarecrow fan, you’re going to want to watch episode 2 of the season, which focuses heavily on the new villain and his effect on the city. “People have to face their own worst fears and end up sort of embodying them and living through their own nightmares,” Ben McKenzie says. “It’s a little nightmarish. It has a fright movie feel to it. It’s fun.”

[tv echo]

Fall TV Spectacular: Exclusive Scoop and Photos on 35+ Returning Favorites!
By Michael Ausiello, Matt Webb Mitovich, Kimberly Roots, Andy Swift, Dave Nemetz, Vlada Gelman, Ryan Schwartz and Rebecca Iannucci / September 7 2017, 8:00 AM PDT
http://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2017-season-premiere-spoilers/#!16/fall-preview-gotham-3/

Quote

GOTHAM

Season 4 of the DC Comics drama, says exec producer Danny Cannon, is “focusing on character more than anything else” — namely, how Jim Gordon, Penguin and other established characters react to Bruce Wayne’s coming of age: “Somebody who until now has been seen as a wealthy child is now seen as the emerging threat he is.” As Bruce faces that future, watch for Alfred to vie for mentorship of his ward with Ra’s al Ghul. (“An almost amoral figure from such a dark and ancient past coming into Bruce’s life when he is so susceptible to influence gives us lots of drama,” Cannon notes.) Jim’s world meanwhile will be rocked by no less than a return, a new love and new, canon DC villains — such as Scarecrow, Professor Pyg (Fringe‘s Michael Cerveris), Toymaker and Solomon Grundy né Butch Gilzean — just as Penguin’s plan to “legitimize crime” steers Gotham into a(nother) spiral.

BONUS SPOILER!: Selina’s alliance with Tabitha is all part of “building up the Sirens’ origin story,” Barbara and Ivy included, says Cannon. “We’ll be watching Selina turn into a woman, but what kind of woman will she be? Vengeful and resentful, or somebody of amazing potential?”

RETURN DATE: Thursday, Sept. 21 at 8/7c (Fox)

Edited September 8, 2017 by tv echo