Spoilers and Spoiled Speculation

[Delphi]

I'm going with Lee as well,  she's been the worst lately,  I can see her making a terrible decision out of clouded anger. 

[Kathemy]

At this point I just really want them to go out with a bang on season three. There's been a lot of really good setup these last episodes, and I'd hate for the show to fumble the ball. This especially since I don't think the endings of either season one or two were very well-crafted, while there were great episodes in both.

[Dame sans merci]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

At this point I just really want them to go out with a bang on season three. There's been a lot of really good setup these last episodes, and I'd hate for the show to fumble the ball. This especially since I don't think the endings of either season one or two were very well-crafted, while there were great episodes in both.

Agreed. Their pacing hasn't really been...quite right for the past two years, most notably in offing Theo with the bazooka two episodes early last year.

I feel like they're building towards a suitably dramatic climax this season. I just don't know if it will be a good one. Episode 19 has a very 'monkeys on typewriters' feel about it.

eta: It was written by Ken Woodruff, apparently. I have...questions, Ken.

PS. One of you has guessed the right answer on the bad decision thing. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Kathemy]

2 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

Agreed. Their pacing hasn't really been...quite right for the past two years, most notably in offing Theo with the bazooka two episodes early last year.

I feel like they're building towards a suitably dramatic climax this season. I just don't know if it will be a good one. Episode 19 has a very 'monkeys on typewriters' feel about it.

eta: It was written by Ken Woodruff, apparently. I have...questions, Ken.

PS. One of you has guessed the right answer on the bad decision thing. 

Ken Woodruff was also the go-to guy for defending the atrocious Ivy recast. From all I have gathered he's a negative influence on the show.

[Dame sans merci]

25 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Ken Woodruff was also the go-to guy for defending the atrocious Ivy recast. From all I have gathered he's a negative influence on the show.

Huh, interesting. 19 feels very 'fevered fanboy wet dream' in how it's focused on massive amounts of comicbook-esque hyper-violence and how it strips the Ed/Oswald relationship of its emotion and nuance (That fantastic emotional stare-down? Potential entirely wasted here). Defending the gross Ivy thing rather fits in with that.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Kathemy]

Woodruff is the guy speaking for the show most often these days, I think. It's just a hunch but I believe Heller has lost interest or been outmaneuvered. The Ivy thing was contradictory to his philosophy.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

PS. One of you has guessed the right answer on the bad decision thing. 

You never did answer if Bullock survives. No Bullock means not continuing with this show.

[Dame sans merci]

24 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

You never did answer if Bullock survives. No Bullock means not continuing with this show.

Honestly, if Harvey died, I would not be posting on here. I would be holding a candlelit vigil.

46 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Woodruff is the guy speaking for the show most often these days, I think. It's just a hunch but I believe Heller has lost interest or been outmaneuvered. The Ivy thing was contradictory to his philosophy.

Yes, Heller seems to have completely dropped off the radar now - we only hear from Woodruff, Stephens and Cannon.

[Kostgard]

Okay, I change my "bad idea" vote to Lee! Or Barbara! No, Lee! Honestly, they are both kinda heading in the wrong direction, so I think it could be either one of them.

That's a bummer that it appears that they don't tap into all the Ed/Oswald potential. Hopefully they can pick up the thread in a future episode. The show has been pretty smart about not wasting their chemistry/dynamic so far. I'm pretty sure they are at least in the same room together in episode 20, since we saw that shot of Fish in the Season 3B trailer and it looks like she is talking to both Ed and Oswald (definitely Oswald - his hair is unmistakable. The other person most likely is Ed. The only other option would be Jim, but I think the person in the shot is too tall to be Jim).

I figured it was going to get a little ugly between them when they reunited - especially after I saw this interview with RLT and CMS where CMS talks about how dark and violent his character becomes. But they also talk about how they got some really juicy stuff at the end of the season and were really glad to get another season so they could continue with that (I assume they meant their own characters and they weren't thinking "The coolest stuff happens with Bruce!"). Hopefully the juicy stuff will eventually include some nuance and not just bloody mayhem. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

5 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

Honestly, if Harvey died, I would not be posting on here. I would be holding a candlelit vigil.

That's reassuring. :)

I do think Harvey is primed for a series-ending death. He's the only one who keeps morale up at the GCPD so I could see him kick the bucket spurring Jim to hire Batman to help him keep control of things.

[Dame sans merci]

We have a finale synopsis:

Quote

DESTINY AWAITS ON THE ALL-NEW, SPECIAL TWO-HOUR SEASON FINALE OF “GOTHAM” MONDAY JUNE 5, ON FOX Monday, June 5, On FOX

Jada Pinkett Smith Guest-Stars as Fish Mooney

Alexander Siddig Debuts as Ra’s Al Ghul

With the deadly virus spreading throughout the city, the search for the antidote continues, as Fish Mooney (guest star Jada Pinkett Smith), The Riddler and Penguin reveal plans of their own. Bruce meets Ra’s Al Ghul (guest star Alexander Siddig) and completes his last task in order to fulfill his destiny, but realizes he can’t let go of his past. Meanwhile, Gordon tries to win back Lee, and past alliances within Gotham City are broken, while new alliances are formed in the all-new, special two-hour “Heroes Rise: Destiny Calling/ Heroes Rise: Heavydirtysoul” season finale episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, June 5 (8:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-321/22) (TV-14 L, V)

Guest Cast: Jada Pinkett Smith as Fish Mooney, Alexander Siddig as Ra’s Al Ghul, Camila Perez as Firefly, Nathan Darrow as Victor Fries/Mr. Freeze, BD Wong as Hugo Strange

Edited May 17, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Danielg342]

Gordon tries to win back Lee? Why? WHY?

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

Gordon tries to win back Lee? Why? WHY?

What the FUCK?! If I had a nickel for every damn movie/show where a guy remains hopelessly devoted to a woman that treats him like shit, I'd be a millionaire.

You know what? I'm skipping this finale. I'll just read about it on the thread the next day. And unless Lee dies or is written off the show in some way, I will be done. That goes double if the writers make her turn out to be Harley Quinn.

[Perfect Xero]

Maybe "wins back" is promo blurb code for, "Tries to convince Lee not to interfere with their attempts to stop a biological weapon from killing everyone in the city."

[Dame sans merci]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Maybe "wins back" is promo blurb code for, "Tries to convince Lee not to interfere with their attempts to stop a biological weapon from killing everyone in the city."

I certainly don't think it's being straightforward there: we know (from the midseason promo) that Lee gets infected with the virus, and they're apparently still trying to cure it here, so she's presumably still infected. Not the optimum time for romantic gestures.

[Kathemy]

I wonder if Bruce will go Happy Tree Friends on us.

[Kostgard]

Promo pics from episode 20

 

All the villains on this show have fabulous wardrobes. And no sense of personal space.

[Dame sans merci]

6 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Promo pics from episode 20

 

All the villains on this show have fabulous wardrobes. And no sense of personal space.

Ooh!

Two separate villain showdowns (one at...Jim's? One at Wayne Manor).

Ed might be hallucinating again, judging by the reappearance of the red light of homoerotic Amy Winehouse numbers. 

I am here for Action!Alfred.

Did...did Oswald wear those massive platform shoes so he could stare down Ed more successfully without getting a crick in his neck?

Edited May 19, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Kostgard]

9 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

Ooh!

Two separate villain showdowns (one at...Jim's? One at Wayne Manor).

Ed might be hallucinating again, judging by the reappearance of the red light of homoerotic Amy Winehouse numbers. 

I am here for Action!Alfred.

Did...did Oswald wear those massive platform shoes so he could stare down Ed more successfully without getting a crick in his neck?

The first place is definitely Jim's. I remember the coffee maker and the pathetic pantry that contains a box of saltines and, like, a can of beans screams "bachelor pad." I couldn't figure out if the second location was Wayne Manor or Oswald's place or that house Ivy was squatting in. If Wayne Manor - what the hell are they all doing there?

Ed in the red light does seem like it might be a hallucination (the only other red filter we're seeing is when they release the Tetch virus, but that's more of a mist and Ed seems awfully calm for someone getting dosed with atomized Tetch blood). But while it would be fun to see Hallucination Oswald again, it makes me feel kinda bad for Ed. Previously he was hallucinating because he was taking drugs to cause it. Unless he's back on the goofballs (which would also be sad), he's just hallucinating on his own and the cheese could very well be sliding off his cracker and he is really unwell.

[Kathemy]

There's a picture with Jim and Harvey with the same red light.

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

There's a picture with Jim and Harvey with the same red light.

Is that also from this ep? I know there is some red lighting in the background in Strange's lab, and we saw that in this week's episode. But the red lighting in the Ed pic is in Jim's apartment. Unless Jim is really into mood lighting, I'm not sure why there would be red lighting in that location (but I'm happy to be proven wrong).

[Kathemy]

You're right, I'm not sure either.

[Kostgard]

You know, I think I also noticed that they had red lighting in the background at the bank when the Court was Tetch-ing the socialites. Maybe the red light is the show's visual shorthand for "Danger! Tetch virus!"

But then, if that is the reason behind the lighting in that pic, then that means Tetch virus is in Jim's apartment. I hope he can get out of his lease.

[jay741982]

In those pics for 320 are Ivy and Salina possibly wearing there Villian outfits? Or are they gonna get their comic outfits does anyone know?

On 5/17/2017 at 7:37 PM, Spartan Girl said:

What the FUCK?! If I had a nickel for every damn movie/show where a guy remains hopelessly devoted to a woman that treats him like shit, I'd be a millionaire.

You know what? I'm skipping this finale. I'll just read about it on the thread the next day. And unless Lee dies or is written off the show in some way, I will be done. That goes double if the writers make her turn out to be Harley Quinn.

I'd much rather Babs becomes Harley than Lee does 

[Dame sans merci]

This week's advance review.

I liked this a little better on re-watching, but still wasn't too impressed overall.

[Kostgard]

Glad to hear Harvey has some good stuff this week, as well as Alfred (you're right - we should get more of him).

Sort of sad that my hunch about The Executioner seems right. Just what we have so far and looking at the pics...it just seems so cornball. Even for this show, which loves camp. Chiklis deserves better.

So, no "freaks" this episode? Oswald was right to ask - where the hell is Freeze? Did he accidentally melt somewhere and they just haven't found the body (or puddle) yet?

And thank you for assigning blame for Ed's choice of hat on his grief/madness, because it is indeed unfortunate. I mean, a bowler hat is hard for most people to pull off. Only a small number of people can pull one off and Ed just isn't one of them. But actually, Oswald is among the small percentage who can pull one off, which is why a part of me kinda hopes Ed's bowler was stolen from Oswald's wardrobe before Ed cleared out of Oswald's house. Like an insult to injury thing - "Not only did he try to kill you, but bitch stole your look!"

Edited May 20, 2017 by Kostgard

[Kathemy]

I think Ed looks fantastic in his bowler hat.

If there's anything I can't fault Gotham for in the least it's their wardrobe design.

[Dame sans merci]

26 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

Glad to hear Harvey has some good stuff this week, as well as Alfred (you're right - we should get more of him).

Sort of sad that my hunch about The Executioner seems right. Just what we have so far and looking at the pics...it just seems so cornball. Even for this show, which loves camp. Chiklis deserves better.

So, no "freaks" this episode? Oswald was right to ask - where the hell is Freeze? Did he accidentally melt somewhere and they just haven't found the body (or puddle) yet?

And thank you for assigning blame for Ed's choice of hat on his grief/madness, because it is indeed unfortunate. I mean, a bowler hat is hard for most people to pull off. Only a small number of people can pull one off and Ed just isn't one of them. But actually, Oswald is among the small percentage who can pull one off, which is why a part of me kinda hopes Ed's bowler was stolen from Oswald's wardrobe before Ed cleared out of Oswald's house. Like an insult to injury thing - "Not only did he try to kill you, but bitch stole your look!"

It sounds stupid to complain about something in a Batman series being too 'cartoony', but the Barnes thing is certainly that for me. Whereas somebody like Jervis - despite theoretically being equally ridiculous - works better for me because there's more texture to the performance.

As someone who owns a bowler hat, i'm now quite paranoid. 

But i'm laughing at the idea of Oswald being all 'that asshole tried to murder me AND raided my wardrobe?'

Edited May 20, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Kathemy]

Right now Lee is the poster girl example for "how to make a character completely unlikable."

As it stands I don't even find her attractive, and that takes a special circle of Hell level of creativity.

[Dame sans merci]

12 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Right now Lee is the poster girl example for "how to make a character completely unlikable."

As it stands I don't even find her attractive, and that takes a special circle of Hell level of creativity.

It's bizarre, isn't it? I don't get the impression that they're trying to pave the way for Lee to become a villain (i'm more inclined to think our Harley might be Babs now), but they've written her in a way to make her so unsympathetic that i'm really not sure how they'll pull her round again. Are we supposed to see her as a tragic figure at this point?

[Kathemy]

3 minutes ago, Blackcanary said:

Are we supposed to see her as a tragic figure at this point?

I don't really see how. How are we supposed to take her insane grief and rage over the death of her husband seriously, when she cheated on him the very day before the wedding with the very guy she's now angry at?

It's pretty farcical. 

[Kostgard]

51 minutes ago, Blackcanary said:

It sounds stupid to complain about something in a Batman series being too 'cartoony', but the Barnes thing is certainly that for me. Whereas somebody like Jervis - despite theoretically being equally ridiculous - works better for me because there's more texture to the performance.

As someone who owns a bowler hat, i'm now quite paranoid. 

But i'm laughing at the idea of Oswald being all 'that asshole tried to murder me AND raided my wardrobe?'

Aw, I assume you're in the percentage who can pull a bowler off. Besides, as this thread illustrates it's all a matter of opinion and others think Ed looks just fine.

And I agree about Jarvis versus Executioner. Cartoony can be just fine, but it walks a fine line. I haven't actually seen the performance in action to judge it, but from what I've seen so far The Executioner just wasn't pulling it off.

21 minutes ago, Blackcanary said:

It's bizarre, isn't it? I don't get the impression that they're trying to pave the way for Lee to become a villain (i'm more inclined to think our Harley might be Babs now), but they've written her in a way to make her so unsympathetic that i'm really not sure how they'll pull her round again. Are we supposed to see her as a tragic figure at this point?

Totally agree about Lee. And Babs - she was getting a little batty in her scene with Ed and Mayor James a couple episodes ago, and it was giving me shades of Harley.

But back to Lee - the way they are painting is really a problem. And surprising for a show that is pretty good at giving  characters that are pretty despicable people qualities that make them human to the viewer. I mean, we can watch Oswald kill a guy for a sandwich and we still like him because of the different dimensions they gave the character. The only thing Lee puts out is "JIM SUCKS!" Which, she has a right to feel that way, but there is zero nuance to it. You get the impression that if traffic is bad or she stubs her toe, Lee will somehow blame Jim for it. They don't seem to get that she can acknowledge the circumstances surrounding her husband's death and still kinda hate Jim for it. 

Through process of elimination. I'm assuming Lee is the one who makes the terrible decision, and...oof. Just not looking forward to it.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

6 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Glad to hear Harvey has some good stuff this week

Me too. Hopefully this means the Bullock Meter gets to go to 7 or 8, maybe even 9. Or maybe even 10, but that would involve a performance like "Prisoners" for him to get there (or "Spirit of the Goat" or "The Mask", which probably would have been 10s if I did the Meter back then).

Bullock is probably this season's most disappointing character, because I feel that they've pretty much erased the character's nuances and reduced him to a plot device, agreeing or disagreeing with Jim only when the plot needs him to do one or the other, not because the character himself would actually agree or disagree. Bullock used to be a maverick bulldog who had a tireless work ethic, a keen sense of observation and an undying loyalty to Jim, which held true in S1 and much of S2 before eroding completely in S3. I can probably understand why the writers don't want Bullock to be too shady- because then they probably think audiences just won't like him- but the diligence and the observance is gone. Those scenes where Bullock questioned Jim about whether or not Mario was infected with the Tetch virus was arguably the worst example of this- no way S1 Bullock does that, since the way Mario acted was a textbook example of the Tetch virus at work and only a dummy would not see that.

In fact, if this was S1, Bullock would have likely been the first one to notice it and suspect it, with Jim perhaps pushing it until Lucius tells him "maybe you've got your love blinders on".

Hopefully, S3E19 is a turning point in that regard. I don't think Bullock is the only one whose characterization has been reduced or downright nullified- Jim (whose brains seem to only exist when the plot calls for it), Lee, Barbara, Tabitha and Butch seem to be affected by this too, as well as the relationship between Selina and Bruce (individually Bruce has grown as a character but Selina's been kind of sidelined lately)- but, for me (since Harvey's my favourite character), Bullock's erosion is the most notable.

[Kathemy]

Does Lee have a right to say that Jim sucks? In any reasonable world, she'd be arrested for conspiracy to commit murder, not thanked by Jim for coming to her senses and calling the hit off.

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Does Lee have a right to say that Jim sucks? In any reasonable world, she'd be arrested for conspiracy to commit murder, not thanked by Jim for coming to her senses and calling the hit off.

 

I can at least understand how she feels that way on an emotional level - at least to a certain point, and unfortunately Lee is well beyond that point. Her connection to Jim has led to some crappy stuff (like getting kidnapped and watching him shoot her husband on her wedding day). Even though those things weren't his fault and/or were understandable actions. Emotions aren't always rational, and I can see why she's angry.

So, I get it. I get why she's angry and hates Jim. But Lee is now like nails on a chalkboard because she is only about that anger. The balance/nuance isn't there. She refuses to acknowledge her role in any of this. No one made her come back to Gotham where she'd be working with Jim every day. No one made her hover around him constantly waiting for a confession of love or something. If she were still hung up on Jim, she shouldn't have agreed to marry Mario. If she had truly decided to move on but knew being around Jim wouldn't be easy, she should have stayed the hell away from him. Instead she made what was naturally going to be a tense relationship between Jim and Mario that much worse. And...yeah. After taking out a hit on someone you have no right to whine about what a terrible, sneaky, corrupt person someone else is. Lee can take several seats.

And it's all too bad, because I really liked her in season two. But now that it appears that she is most likely the one making a super-stupid position, I find myself hoping whatever it is buys her a one-way ticket out of Gotham.

[Spartan Girl]

Word to everything said about Lee. I swear to God, if she isn't gone at the end of the season, I quit. I am so beyond this Smallville crap. And she doesn't deserve to be Harley Quinn.

The only way this story would have worked would have been for her to have secretly been a plant for the Court or some other evil organization, hence her gaslighting Jim and Mario. But obviously that ain't gonna happen.

If she's the one that makes the bad decision, then I can only hope we get a Gwendolyn Post moment, with Katherine delivering that famous line "Word of advice: you're an idiot" right before gunning her down.

(Or hell, have Babs do it and break out into a version of "You're welcome" from Moana).

[Kathemy]

Smallville-level crap? Remember, Gotham's only had three seasons. How do you think Jim and Lee would look after a decade? ¤lol¤ I think objectively, C/Lana was way better than them.

... and I still hated them.

[Kostgard]

Clips from tonight's episode:

 

Ed and Oswald

Alfred, Clone Bruce and Selina

 

And...okay, fine. Lee.

[Dame sans merci]

31 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

Clips from tonight's episode:

 

Ed and Oswald

Alfred, Clone Bruce and Selina

 

And...okay, fine. Lee.

And a Jim/Harvey scene.

[Kostgard]

Clip from episode 20

Illustrates why I think it is weird that Tabitha and Butch are still working with Ed, but also kinda explains why (they all have reason to fear Oswald will be coming after them). 

Also illustrates that Oswald really shouldn't have tipped his hand on the freak army. That would have worked better as a surprise.

[Dame sans merci]

12 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Clip from episode 20

Illustrates why I think it is weird that Tabitha and Butch are still working with Ed, but also kinda explains why (they all have reason to fear Oswald will be coming after them). 

Also illustrates that Oswald really shouldn't have tipped his hand on the freak army. That would have worked better as a surprise.

I'm amused by how much everyone on that team loathes each other. Also, CMS's reading of 'stern updo' was spectacular.

They have released a boatload of photos for episode 21 and 22. 

All the expected madness, with added foxy evil Lee.

[Spartan Girl]

This had better be Lee's final season.  I can't take this shit anymore.

[Kostgard]

Another clip for episode 20 - This one with everyone's favorite.

[Kathemy]

45 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

Another clip for episode 20 - This one with everyone's favorite.

Please, just die. Please, please, just die.

[jay741982]

2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Please, just die. Please, please, just die.

Ugh at a comment for the video saying GCPD can rot for how they treated Lee 

[Spartan Girl]

8 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Ugh at a comment for the video saying GCPD can rot for how they treated Lee 

What show were they watching?!

[Kathemy]

36 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

What show were they watching?!

Gotham Identitarian Edition.

These people would all hate Lee and love Jim were only their genders reversed.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Kathemy
Clarity

[Kostgard]

I've seen some people upset that others don't like Lee when she hasn't done anything terrible while these same viewers continue to like characters who will kill people at the drop of a hat. But that's just it - Lee hasn't done anything nearly all season except dump on Jim. It's boring. That's Lee's crime here - she's boring.

The murderers are at least interesting because they are doing stuff. If Oswald had spent everything post episode 14 just walking into rooms and complaining about how Ed is the worst, his character would be a grind too. But he's actually been given stuff to do. And that's really the writers failing Lee - she and Oswald are in similar boats in that they want to harm someone who did them wrong, but only one them just sits around and complains about it.

When I saw that clip I at first thought, "Well, at least she's doing something." But it really falls into what I was afraid was going to happen after she injected herself with the virus - she's just using it to find new and interesting ways to dump on Jim. If she just went out and started wrecking up the city, that would at least be something different. But it's the same mind-numbing boring stuff, just with eyeliner and flat-ironed hair.

[Horsesrunwild]

Has everybody seen the promotional pics of episode 21 and 22? There is a picture of Bruce holding a sword to Alfred. Does anybody think Bruce could kill Alfred? And then Alfred could be brought back to life next season. Anybody think this or is it just me?

[Kostgard]

5 hours ago, Horsesrunwild said:

Has everybody seen the promotional pics of episode 21 and 22? There is a picture of Bruce holding a sword to Alfred. Does anybody think Bruce could kill Alfred? And then Alfred could be brought back to life next season. Anybody think this or is it just me?

I think we are meant to think that in the scene, but I'm fairly confident that Bruce would never actually hurt Alfred. I'm still hoping that he's mostly playing the Shaman and really isn't under his thrall. 

ETA: Here's an interview with Jada Pinkett Smith that has some clips of Fish Mooney in episode 20.

It's broken up into two pieces during the interview and they talk over the second part so you can't really hear the dialogue. But you see Fish show up while Ed and Babs/Tabs/Butch seem to have guns on Oswald, then she takes Oswald away while Ivy looks on, all concerned. Actually, Ed looks concerned too, but I can't tell if it's because he's actually worried about Oswald or if he's just pissed that someone took Oswald away before he got a chance to shoot him again.

I do enjoy Butch's fondness for Fish. And I suspect that Fish is actually helping Oswald here. I mean, the last encounter they had he let her live when he could have easily killed her. I don't know why Fish would suddenly be all, "You know what, I've decided to kill that little turd after all. Back to Gotham!"

Edited May 26, 2017 by Kostgard