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Spoilers and Spoiled Speculation

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Decided it was time to make a spoilers topic finally, because some of the CASTING actually already crosses the line into possibly spoiling major plot elements.

If someone gets press as a casting decision all on their own--gets the nice EW reportage and fancy cast photo, then its clear its meant to be general knowledge.  But some of the lesser casting decisions may not have that same intent (for all the public to process what them being around means to the show).

IMDB showing the full cast list (thus its not really a spoiler) reveals DOES reveal some cool choices for the show.

For example, someone's been cast as Bette Kane (Sara Paxton).  In other words, the original Bat-Girl (yes, it's spelled that way with her). Which makes total sense, while at the same time for some reason not being a character I'd expected. The big question with a Bette Kane being around is if she dresses up as a proto-superhero/vigilante or not. 

The timelines are going to be a bit odd to establish.  Bat-Girl was originally the sidekick of Batwoman, her aunt Kathy Kane, who was originally mostly a contemporary of Batman (a follower technically I guess, but operating independently).  Later DC reboots changed Bette (and Batwoman also) totally--having Bette instead become a hero named Flamebird, then in a later reboot she's some amalgam of both of those earlier versions.  Here she's clearly older than Bruce Wayne, so if there's a Bat-Girl and or a Batwoman, there's certainly a new story to tell.

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Another casting which certainly reveals a deliberate choice in the show's plot/direction.  We have the character of Barbara Kean (to be played by Erin Richards).

This is a major thing in the sense that this is our protagonists "inevitable love interest".  Barbara Kean is the (weird for a woman in our culture) same named "Barbara Gordon", who's the mother of the OTHER Barbara Gordon, who becomes Batgirl.

There IS a way this might not be inevitable however--although it takes a good dig into DC comics history to produce it.  In some versions, Batgirl Barbara Gordon is actually James Gordon's NIECE and not his daughter.  I believe (although I haven't found the reference yet) that this would still make Barbara Kean the spouse of James Gordon, however--in this case with the younger Babs being named after an aunt by marriage.  The show could, I suppose, tweak all of this though and have Barbara Kean still as Barbara's mother, but somehow winding up with James' brother (although I haven't seen any mention of him as a character on the show).

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Thomas and Martha Wayne have also been cast (Grayson McCouch, Brette Taylor).  

Rather than suggesting to me that this show all happens before the Wayne's die, it actually does the opposite.  They're very far down the IMDB cast list, so it suggests the show happens fairly concurrently with their murders.


More stuff:  There's a Captain Sarah Essen cast (Zabryna Guevara).  In normal DC continuity (at least that established by Frank Miller) Sarah Essen wasn't a Captain concurrent with Gordon being a Detective, she was in fact his partner (and outranked by him, with her being a Detective and Gordon at that time a Lieutenant.

All kinds of things happen with Essen, which eventually culminate in her becoming James' second wife, and eventually being murdered by The Joker.  Since then, in various reboots, Sarah was married to Gordon much younger than in the earlier comics, or in the latest reboot she hasn't yet been introduced as a character at all.

Her clearly outranking Gordon here (by two grades as well) seems to suggest there's no romance likely.  But who knows?  The actress appears to be marginally too old to match Ben MacKenzie in a romance (although not impossibly).  I'd guess the name Essen has just been borrowed, and she's a straight-up "boss character".


The name Renee Montoya also appears in the cast list (played by Victoria Cartagena).  It's pretty far down the cast list, but certainly suggests a major rejiggering of character roles.  The actress is roughly the same age as Ben MacKenzie.  Not saying this suggests a romance, because Montoya is one of DC's clearly defined gay characters and I don't think they'd risk fan backlash by changing that.  But the age is certainly is major change, because in every previous version, all of them, she's a young officer when Gordon is the old and wrinkly Commish we all know and love.  She deals with Bullock, at that point, as a far older "opponent" who's corruption (in her earlier version) that she has to battle. Which she could still be doing, depending on how old Bullock is set here, but at the same time she's total contemporaries with Gordon (or possibly slightly younger--they could make her a uniformed officer--as she was in the DC animated version when she was partnered with Bullock).

EDIT - Set photos below (next post), which show Montoya, clearly not in uniform.  One photo there also potentially calls Montoya's gayness into question, but as I speculate below, the same photo could also be interpreted a different way (as an angry confrontation with Gordon, as opposed to a sexually tense moment).


There's the name Ivy Pepper on the cast list (played by kid actor Clare Foley). There is NO character I know of at DC named Ivy Pepper.  But consider this.  She's roughly the same age as the kids cast for Bruce and Selina.  She's got bright red hair.  She's named IVY.  I don't think it could be any more obvious she's being set as the eventual Poison Ivy.  Who in the comics was named Dr. Pamela Isley, but think about this.  This show is setting all the Bat building blocks as contemporaries of either Gordon OR of Bruce. This is Poison Ivy, I'm sure of it.  There are also parents who have been cast for her, way down the show credit list.  


One last.  Andrew Stewart-Jones has been cast as Crispus Allen.  Who I presume is probably a Detective (although I suppose he could just be an officer too in this--as I suspect Montoya might be too).  I think Crispus' later DC role as The Spectre can be ignored here.  Far more relevant is that he's also been Montoya's partner in versions where Bullock wasn't. 

EDIT - set photos below (next post), very strongly implying he's Montoya's partner, and they are both likely Detectives.

Edited by Kromm
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From a mention on TWOP, something I missed already out there with Gordon and Montoya.


Most particularly this photo which is leading to some ugly (but very possibly accurate) speculation that Montoya may have been de-gayed (un-gayed?) for the show.



A pose which could be sexual, or antagonistic.  Hard to tell.  Other on-set shots from the same report aren't any clearer about this.

This other photo suggests that Montoya and Crispus Allen are likely partners.  It DOES somehow make me think that the other photo is meant to be antagonistic though, because there wouldn't be such a highly sexualized moment with Montoya's partner right out of shot in that same setting.


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Yeah, Gordon's hand is on his gun. It's an intimidation pose. Not sexual I'm pretty sure. Also remember the leaked script iO9 had which is the very first time Renee Montoya's name was mentioned in connection with this show. Her actually being in the show gives the script more weight on the side of being real and in it she was called a dyke by Bullock.

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Yeah, Gordon's hand is on his gun. It's an intimidation pose. Not sexual I'm pretty sure. Also remember the leaked script iO9 had which is the very first time Renee Montoya's name was mentioned in connection with this show. Her actually being in the show gives the script more weight on the side of being real and in it she was called a dyke by Bullock.

Hmm.  I hadn't seen that leaked script.  That said, Bullock calling her a dyke not only goes back to confirming her sexuality, it also provides some insight into which variation of Bullock they're aiming for on this show.

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I saw somewhere that Montoya is actually going to be Gordon's supervisor, so I'm in the "that's not romantic, that's Gordon getting an earful from his boss" camp.

Is the casting of David Masouz officially on the record from the producers at this point?  Just curious so far as discussing him in the other threads goes.  In the meantime, I LOVE this "leaked" set photo:


And here, we have one of the top two defining moments in DC Comics history (the other involves an exploding planet):


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I saw somewhere that Montoya is actually going to be Gordon's supervisor, so I'm in the "that's not romantic, that's Gordon getting an earful from his boss" camp.

I agree it's not a romantic pose, but there is no way Montoya is his boss.  While the age changes and rejiggering is massive, that move would be TOO massive.  And totally arbitrary seeming.

His boss is definitely going to be Sarah Essen.  Mind you that's STILL a major rejiggering, because in classic DC comics she's his partner and inferior in rank, but we KNOW she's been labeled here as "Captain Sarah Essen".

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It's dumb, but I hope they've corrected Ivy's name in the finished pilot. Her real name is Pamela, and has never been Ivy. It's a stupid detail to screw up.

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It's dumb, but I hope they've corrected Ivy's name in the finished pilot. Her real name is Pamela, and has never been Ivy. It's a stupid detail to screw up.

Yeah, but her last name isn't "Pepper" either in that previous version.  So clearly this is a deliberate reinvention, not some oversight.


Not saying I'm totally on board, but I'll give it a chance before coming to a final conclusion.  I mean like Catwoman, she shouldn't even BE a contemporary of Bruce Wayne (she should be younger), but that's been deliberately ignored as well.

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I referenced this in the Anticipation topic, because I wanted to point out the fact that a physical newspaper (albeit one with a color photo) is used (we were discussing the vague time/setting of the show--where a newspaper implies old-timey, a color photo maybe not so much, but we'll have a wait and see attitude on cell phones, smartphones, social media, or even TV news and see if they are represented too).


Anyway, I took the photo down in that topic and replaced it with a link, because AFTER posting it I noticed how SPOILERISH the headline of the paper is. Read it.





That's a major plot reveal (although we don't have to take it on face value--I think its just as likely, or even more perhaps, that there's a cover-up/conspiracy plotline where Gordon and Bullock take down a perp who's a patsy, and the powers that be promote it as the Wayne case being solved (and I bet Gordon thinks otherwise, but has to cooperate as the "hero" of the piece).

Edited by Kromm
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Just a quick reminder on what counts as spoilers: Leaked scripts; Leaked set photos; Things not approved by TPTB (networks, writers, etc); Things found on Spoiler sites (Ausiello).


Not spoilers: Network trailers; press interviews in magazines; tweets from the cast and crew (most likely been approved).



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I don't know if this belongs here. I saw a screening of Gotham with 3 of the actors Camren Bicondova (Selina), Erin Richards (Barbara Kean) and Cory Michael Smith (The Riddler), it was okay. I think they introduced way too many characters at once. We all know this is a before Batman story we don't need to meet almost all of his future villains in the first episode. Basically I think they tried to cram too much into the pilot and that might turn some people away from it. I always give shows at least 5 episodes before I make a decision on it, because most pilot's suck. 


As for the questions raised in this thread, I'll answer without saying too much. They didn't de-gay Montoya, they also suggested she was in a relationship with another character we met in the first episode and she works in the Major Crimes unit. She's at odds with Gordon about the article in the newspaper that the Penguin is holding. 


Young Selina's inclusion in this show changes the origin story quite a bit on her end.


And yes her name is Ivy Peppers, so don't know what's up with that.


The actors described the show as a serialized procedural and told us to stick with the show for episode 7 because that one is supposed to be amazing. 

Edited by Sakura12
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From TVLine's Ask Ausiello:


Question: Any news or spoilers on Gotham? I’m hooked after only three episodes and I’m curious what’s ahead. —Eric F.
Ausiello: A better question is who’s ahead, and the answer is… Dr. Leslie Thompkins. DC Comics’ aficionados know her as Bruce Wayne’s Godmother, but I hear Gotham is tweaking Batman lore a smidge by also making her a love interest for James Gordon.


Love interest?? Nooooooooooo!

Edited by Trini
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Dent being outed as untrustworthy this early on seems like a bad idea to me.  Unless they plan on REALLY accelerating his change to Two-Face and make it happen soon (since Falcone seems fated to fall during this series actually maybe that isn't that unbelievable, since the two stories are tied together).


It just makes him still being around operating as Two-Face twenty years later another pill we have to swallow.  It was easy with Penguin, because despite his Murderocity, Oswald seems like once he's on top he'll be pretty careful and canny and easily sellable as there for the long-haul, but Two-Face is so over the top he makes Fish Mooney seem subtle and him LASTING twenty years is what's going to stretch credibility. 

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What can we expect when Gotham returns? — Matty

Even though Gordon will be working a new gig at Arkham Asylum, it won't take him long to make a new friend: Dr. Leslie Thompkins (guest star Morena Baccarin), who, despite being a bit different from her comic book counterpart, is one of the good guys. "She doesn't fall into the corrupt Gotham world," Baccarin says. "She wants to make it a better place." Because she shares that mentality with Gordon, they become a natural pair. "They have this immediate connection... based on just how insane everything is around them," she says. "It's the beginning of a really great, great friendship." But now that Gordon's fiancée skipped town, could that "friendship" become more? "There's definitely chemistry — so I'm not going to say no!" Baccarin teases.


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Really would love some Gotham spoilers on Leslie Thompkins and Jim Gordon, for when the show returns (on Jan. 5). Have any to share? –Mickey

Hmm, already I’ve had both EP Danny Cannon and new recurring player Morena Baccarin preview Leslie’s arrival/impact on Jim’s life. So instead I will share with you the latest casting calls – including John Grayson and Mary Lloyd, teenage circus performers who will figure into Episode 16 and hint at the origin of a certain Boy Wonder. Episode 17, meanwhile, will introduce two recurring characters: Dr. Dulmacher (aka another Dollmaker), this time conceived as a mad European scientist, and Reggie Payne, an old army buddy of Alfred’s who has gone a bit to seed.



Robin's Parents, A New Dollmaker To Appear On Gotham

By Russ Burlingame  12/17/2014



Gotham - Episode 1.11 - Rogues' Gallery - Promotional Photos

Posted by Bradley Adams at Thursday, December 18, 2014



Gotham - Episode 1.12 - What The Little Bird Told Him - Promotional Photos

Posted by Paradox at Saturday, December 20, 2014


Edited by tv echo
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Geez. That kind of description makes me think they're either going to stuff Dr. Leslie in a refrigerator by the end of her tenure, or make her go crazy/evil.


Do you mean just because she's a love interest? I doubt they'd do that; to this particular character, at least.


I totally predicted the Grayson parents would show up on TWoP!

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Do you mean just because she's a love interest? I doubt they'd do that; to this particular character, at least.

No.  Because she's a love interest PLUS she's been described as a goody-goody in Gotham, who isn't named James Gordon.

So can't you see the show needing fodder for season ending body counts?  Goody-goody trumps even "spare girlfriend" in terms of setting a character up.

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I honestly think it's too soon to tell; because the show is still new, and we haven't seen how she will be used yet. Obviously they could change things up, but Dr. Thompkins is supposed to be one of Bruce/Batman's mentors, so I think she's more safe than not. Plus maybe she's here exactly to show that Gordon isn't the ONLY "goody-goody" in town.


Now Barb I can see them redeeming, then bumping off.

Edited by Trini
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I honestly think it's too soon to tell; because the show is still new, and we haven't seen how she will used yet. Obviously they could change things up, but Dr. Thompkins is supposed to be one of Bruce/Batman's mentors, so I think she's more safe than not. 

Yeah, but by that same measure she's supposed to be a romance for Alfred, not Gordon, and have known Bruce from birth (which I suppose they could still push into the story from the reverse direction, but its odd to see her introduced FIRST in the Arkham context).

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"GOTHAM" - (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) CC-AD-HDTV 720p-Dolby Digital 5.1


In an attempt to get his job back, Gordon seeks to capture Jack Gruber (guest star Christopher Heyerdahl), a deranged electrical genius who escapes Arkham Asylum. Meanwhile, Falcone struggles to hold onto his empire after Fish Mooney makes her next move in the all new "What The Little Bird Told Him" episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Jan. 19 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-112) (TV-14 L, V)

Gotham - Episode 1.12 - What The Little Bird Told Him - Press Release
Posted by Paradox at Wednesday, December 31, 2014


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Matt: I need Gotham scoop, stat.

You're in luck! We hear that the Fox comic book drama is currently casting the role of Reginald "Reggie" Payne, a late 40s-early 50s Brit who is rough around the edges. Reggie is Alfred's army buddy from the war, and while he was once a fit, handsome man, he's unfortunately let himself go, and time hasn't been kind on him at all. A scruffy beard, bloodshot eyes and raggedy clothes hide who he once was. Other new faces heading to Gotham? Dr. Dulmacher, aka The Dollmaker, a handsome, creepy, mad doctor; Gus Floyd, a young misfit who takes leadership of the bank robbers known as the Red Hood Gang who gains energy and confidence while robbing a bank; and Clyde Destro, a portly, serious man in his late 30s to mid 50s who is a member of the Red Hood Gang.

NEWS/ Spoiler Chat: Outlander, Revenge, Pretty Little Liars and More!




The infamous Arkham Asylum -- including its off-kilter inhabitants and new security guard Jim Gordon -- looms large as the freshman drama returns. "Not only are there dangerously insane people there, but some people are put there for the wrong reasons," says EP Danny Cannon. "[Arkham]'s a big rug that corrupt Gotham can sweep people under." One bright spot amid that darkness: It's through his demotion that Jim meets Dr. Leslie Thompkins (Homeland's Morena Baccarin), with whom he has "a lot in common. We have a lot of plans for that relationship," Cannon notes -- especially since Jim's estranged fiancée Barbara, sideswiped by another setback in the winter premiere, is bound for a "very dark" place. Elsewhere, Bruce and Selina continue to bond, we'll learn about Alfred's past, and new faces to be glimpsed include the circus-performer parents of a oneday Boy Wonder and a villain we'll call Scarecrow Sr.

TVLine's Winter TV Spoilers 2015


Edited by tv echo
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When the key witness in a homicide ends up dead while being held for questioning by the police, Gordon suspects that it's an inside job and looks to an old friend for information. Meanwhile, Oswald Cobblepot takes control of one of Fish Mooney's prized possessions, as she gets a gets a small taste of her own medicine in the all new "Welcome Back, Jim Gordon" episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Jan. 26 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-113) (TV-14 D, L, V)

Gotham - Episode 1.13 - Welcome Back, Jim Gordon - Press Release

Posted by Paradox at Thursday, January 08, 2015


Edited by tv echo
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Anything on Gotham‘s newest addition, Dr. Leslie Thompkins? — Matt

I wouldn’t expect her to stay at Arkham forever. When talking about Leslie teaming up with Jim to help Gotham, Morena Baccarin told my colleague Samantha Highfill that Dr. Thompkins will be putting another skill set to use soon. “I do end up taking a job elsewhere,” she said. “I won’t tell you where, but it is a little bit different from just being a physician.”

Spoiler Room: Scoop on 'Agent Carter,' 'Glee,' 'Grey's,' and more

By Natalie Abrams on Jan 9, 2015 at 12:18PM


Edited by tv echo
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Umm.  Tutor for Bruce?


Wild guess, but just because if they have ANY hope at all at presenting a tie between Leslie Thompkins and Batman himself, they'd better get on it already.

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Gotham - Episode 1.14 - The Fearsome Dr. Crane


Fish Mooney reveals a secret of Oswald Cobblepot's, prompting Maroni to take him on a trip to test his loyalty. Meanwhile, Gordon and Bullock hunt down a killer who targets victims with severe phobias and Bruce Wayne confronts Gordon for failing to make progress on his parents' murder case in the all new "The Fearsome Dr. Crane" episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Feb. 2 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-114) (TV-14 D, L, V)

FOX Upcoming Episode Press Releases - Various Shows - 14th January 2015


Edited by tv echo
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Well Crane is one of the better "new" Batman villains, so good on that.  But it seems weird that they have Gordon so adjacent to Arkham, but don't seem to be using it for Jonathan Crane's origin (at least that synopsis doesn't suggest it).

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Gordon and Bullock set out to stop Gerald Crane, a biology teacher who has been harvesting the glands of his murder victims. Meanwhile, after finding herself in an unusual setting, Mooney continues plotting to gain power, and Falcone attempts to change Maroni's plan for the Penguin. Then, Bruce takes a treacherous hike in the all new "The Scarecrow" episode of GOTHAM airing Monday, Feb. 9 (8:00-9:00 ET/PT) on FOX. (GTH-115) (TV-14 D, L, V)

Gotham - Episode 1.15 - The Scarecrow - Press Release

Posted by Paradox at Tuesday, January 20, 2015



Gotham - Episode 1.13 - 1.14 - Promotional Photos

Posted by Bradley Adams at Wednesday, January 21, 2015



Gotham - Episode 1.13 - Welcome Back, Jim Gordon - 3 Sneak Peeks

Posted by Nirat Anop at Thursday, January 22, 2015


Edited by tv echo
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Colm Feore To Play The Dollmaker On ‘Gotham’
by Nellie Andreeva • January 26, 2015


Gotham - Episode 1.15 - The Scarecrow - Promotional Photos
Posted by BloodyMary at Tuesday, January 27, 2015


Gotham - Episode 1.14 - The Fearsome Dr. Crane - Promo
Posted by Nirat Anop at Tuesday, January 27, 2015

Edited by tv echo
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Marissa: I love Morena Baccarin. I love Gotham. I love Morena Baccarin on Gotham. Got any scoop on this amazing pair-up?

That swoon-worthy kiss between Dr. Leslie Thompkins and Jim Gordon? That's only the start of one of our favorite TV relationships. "Obviously our relationship heats up and we partner up in many ways," Morena Baccarin says. "I think these are kindred spirits and they're excited to meet each other and be in each other's lives. They're standing against Gotham in a way. She doesn't back down from a fight and she's not fazed by much which is a breath of fresh air from what he's used to. He doesn't have to coddle her."

Spoiler Chat: Scoop on Vampire Diaries, Glee, How to Get Away With Murder, Empire and More!



Edited by tv echo
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