Spoilers and Spoiled Speculation

[Horsesrunwild]

4 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

I would say that this is Gotham, where nobody ever truly dies. 

(except for women, of course/bitter).

But I really can't spoil plot, i'm sorry.

Thanks anyway. Thanks for your review too.

[Horsesrunwild]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Lazarus Pit is controlled by League of Shadows / Assassins... why would RAG kill Alfred, then bring him back? 

We shall see. I like this plot idea better. Better than Alfred being totally dead.

[Kostgard]

One more promo (Facebook link. Will try to find a better source - here it is on YouTube if that is better for anyone).

Looks like it has bits from a number of key scenes. Also? Sorry, Ed. Oswald looks way better in your hat. Plays into my theory that it's actually his hat and you stole it.

One more clip of Bruce and Ra's

Edited June 5, 2017 by Kostgard

[Kostgard]

I don't know if this counts as a spoiler, but one of the show's writer/producers (John Stephens) revealed that the episode title for 4.01 is "Pax Penguina". And hey - it's not too early to speculate about season four, right?!

The title is most likely a play on "Pax Romana" or "Pax Augusta" ("Roman Peace" or "Augustus' Peace") - the name for an unusually long time of peace, prosperity and stability in the Roman Empire that started under Emperor Augustus and lasted a couple hundred years. Augustus was something of an annoying micro-manager, but damned if he didn't get stuff done - he expanded territory, quashed potential rebellions by paying people well, supported those paychecks by cleaning up and centralizing the tax system, and even did stuff like clear out pirates and built new roads. 

Now I've probably spent more time thinking about this than the show's writers have, but that description is not unlike Oswald. He was actually good at being mayor. Crime was down while he was in charge - it was because he controlled and streamlined the flow of criminal activity, but he definitely cleaned things up. He likes empire building and running things. No doubt he'll have a good run in whatever amount of time passes between the finale and the start of the new season, especially since his competition is either dead or sitting in his living room in a block of ice.

Obviously, Season Four isn't going to be all "Look how great Oswald is doing!" all season long. His "peace" will probably be shattered by the end of the first episode. But...by who? They really smashed up the villain situation on this show. And that got me wondering - who is genuinely going to challenge Oswald?

Even if Babs isn't dead, she's going to be starting from scratch again and it will take time before she's a threat to Oswald. Butch/Solomon Grundy I'm guessing wouldn't be interested in the throne, same with Selina and Tabs (I picture them being more of a successful criminal gang who could definitely be a thorn in Oswald's side, but I can't see them challenging him for the throne in any serious way). If Jerome pops up, he's just an agent of chaos who isn't interested in the throne, and would just be an isolated danger to someone (and he'd probably be far more focused on Bruce than Oswald). Baby Batman isn't ready to take on a criminal kingpin and his empire. So, there's Ed once he's thawed out, but he also has no interest in ruling the city. If he antagonizes Oswald, it would purely be to antagonize Oswald, which would get old after a while. I'd rather they just call a truce and there will be times when they are at cross-purposes and will be fighting each other and other times when they will work towards a common goal. I'd rather not the rest of the series be the war between Ed and Oswald. We already got that for the back half of season three and it felt like it cost Ed's character a lot of nuance.

So while we've got a better idea of where they are going on the "hero" side of things, the "villains" side is far less clear to me. Will they bring in someone new? I mean, Ra's will probably be around, but he's more of a foe for Bruce than anyone else.

[Miss Dee]

They really need a Lex Luthor type. Are there any more famous mobsters in the Batman universe to lean on?

Edited June 9, 2017 by Miss Dee
Spelling

[Kostgard]

Gotham starts filming season four later this month, and they've already starting putting out casting calls for extras. Some are no-brainers (cops), one kinda interesting ("featured" extras of an Italian bride, groom and other members of the wedding party, and something about the young couple getting mugged). Finally, they put out a casting call for Arkham inmates, which tells me that we either go back and visit someone we know is in Arkham (Jerome? - I think that's where he ended up after they sewed his face back on) or one of the regular characters ends up there. My guess would be Babs.

[Kathemy]

They're following up on the couple getting mugged? Maybe that family is significant after all, somehow?

Also the Arkham inmates make sense both for Jerome and Jonathan Crane. That's where both should be.

[Kostgard]

11 hours ago, Kathemy said:

They're following up on the couple getting mugged? Maybe that family is significant after all, somehow?

Also the Arkham inmates make sense both for Jerome and Jonathan Crane. That's where both should be.

I don't know if they necessarily follow up with them - "featured extra" could be someone who actually has a line or two and does more than mill around in the background of a shot. Probably like the bride and groom that Mad Hatter kidnapped in season three (Man, are they doing something like that again with another bride and groom?).

Good call on Crane possibly being the one in Arkham they feature. I had forgotten about him. 

They put out two more casting calls for extras - one for "Middle Eastern/Persian soldiers, featured tough gunmen, and Russian gangster." No idea what that one's about. The other is for "club goers, attractive interesting wealthy types. Think Tom Waits, Adam Driver, Fellini types meets Rainbow Room." I don't know I've ever thought of Tom Waits and Adam Driver as "interesting wealthy types". But I assume this means the Iceberg Lounge will be up and running, and with the Fellini reference in there, I guess the clientele will be wealthy/powerful types with a touch of a "freak" twist to them.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Kostgard

[Kathemy]

I'd assume Persian soldiers are somehow relevant to Ra's Al Ghul's story. No real clue about the Russian gangster.

[Miss Dee]

Arrow's Arkady confirmed for Gotham!

[Kathemy]

13 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Arrow's Arkady confirmed for Gotham!

Uh, who?

Link?

[Miss Dee]

No, no, sorry! Someone said they couldn't figure out what a Russian mobster was doing in Gotham; I though of the one on Arrow (Arkady, right?), of how Arrow is always accused of ripping off Batman, and made a lame joke about Gotham ripping off Arrow instead.

Nothing worthwhile to see here, just move along while I slink out the back....

[paigow]

Falcone is now free of Owl oversight...The League of Shadows / Assassins may un-retire him to run Gotham...

[Kathemy]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Falcone is now free of Owl oversight...The League of Shadows / Assassins may un-retire him to run Gotham...

Not sure how likely it is but it's a pretty cool idea especially seeing that Bruce had a tussle or two with Falcone in "normal continuity".

Pax Penguina could refer to two things, I think. The one is "Penguin wtfpwnd all his enemies and now... we'll have... peace..." and the other would be a treaty between the remaining players. I'm betting on the former, though. It takes much less imagination, and the "easy explanation" is normally the right one.

[Danielg342]

I hope Oswald gets to actually "rule" Gotham for a significant period of time, if not for a whole season. I'm tired of the same story where he rises and someone "destroys him".

[Kostgard]

15 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Not sure how likely it is but it's a pretty cool idea especially seeing that Bruce had a tussle or two with Falcone in "normal continuity".

Pax Penguina could refer to two things, I think. The one is "Penguin wtfpwnd all his enemies and now... we'll have... peace..." and the other would be a treaty between the remaining players. I'm betting on the former, though. It takes much less imagination, and the "easy explanation" is normally the right one.

I think the former is correct as well, though not just because it is the easier explanation. At this point, there really isn't anyone to form a truce with Oswald. Ed is on ice. Babs is...? At the very least, out of commission and in no position to challenge him. The same can be said of Butch. Selina and Tabitha can be a formidable team, but neither of them are exactly great at planning/strategy. They are both kinda muscle. Selina has some street smarts and good self-preservation skills, but at this point, that's about it. Even together they aren't really in any position to challenge Oswald. As for the various "gangs" or whatever, they seem to just fall behind whoever claims to be in charge. When Oswald took over, they all seemed to fall in line behind him, then when he lost it and Babs took over, they all just seemed to fall in line behind her. So I don't think that will be an issue.

5 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I hope Oswald gets to actually "rule" Gotham for a significant period of time, if not for a whole season. I'm tired of the same story where he rises and someone "destroys him".

I hope so as well, mostly because it really felt like Oswald turned a corner in the finale, and he should really be stronger and smarter now. If he actually has learned some lessons, it shouldn't be so easy to pull the rug out from under him like people have done in the past. He's most likely going to be doing some serious empire-building in between seasons, and I'd kinda like to see him move to what he often is in the comics, someone who kinda floats in and out of the criminal world as it suits him and is really someone who oversees a lot of stuff and brokers deals (but it still totally prone to hissy fits of murderous rage). That isn't to say no one will challenge him or cause trouble for him, because I'm sure they will. And I'm sure at some point he and Ivy will part ways (maybe Selina recruits her), which will be kinda sad, but I would like to see him really level up next season.

[Danielg342]

8 hours ago, Kostgard said:

1. I think the former is correct as well, though not just because it is the easier explanation. At this point, there really isn't anyone to form a truce with Oswald.
2. I hope so as well, mostly because it really felt like Oswald turned a corner in the finale, and he should really be stronger and smarter now. If he actually has learned some lessons, it shouldn't be so easy to pull the rug out from under him like people have done in the past.

1. I suppose the writers could make The League of Shadows clash with Oswald. It'd be disappointing and hard to explain (Ra's Al-Ghul seems more interested in Bruce than the gangs and I'm not sure he's got the resources to challenge Oswald now) but I'm sure the writers have thought about it.
2. I know- as soon as Oswald took the bullets out of Ed's gun because he knew Ed so well there is no going back for the character. Oswald's grown a brain. He needs to keep it.

[Kostgard]

More fun with casting calls - they've put out a lot of expected stuff (cops, tough gun men, etc), but this most recent one caught my eye. They are looking for "lawyers or citizens, an assistant who has been living in a cave for years, pale weathered types."

An "assistant" who has been living in a cave for years? What kind of craptastic job is that? 

 

There's also one for "financial types" who need to be okay with "getting sprayed in the face with colored water."

Edited June 19, 2017 by Kostgard

[tv echo]

On 6/30/2017 at 5:02 PM, tv echo said:

All Things Gotham with Damian Holbrook
June 29, 2017

According to TV Guide's Damian Holbrook, even though everyone is speculating that Barbara could become Harley Quinn, he said: "She's not... It's not going to play out that way." He sounded pretty definite about this.

Also, regarding whether or not Barbara is really dead, Erin Richards did this interview back in April where it sounds like Barbara is not dead but being changed somehow...

Exclusive: 'Gotham' Star Erin Richards Promises a 'Big Change' for Barbara
Posted April 11, 2017 by Scott Huver
https://www.moviefone.com/2017/04/11/gotham-erin-richards-interview/

Quote

And while she stops short of confirming that particular metamorphosis, in a chat with Moviefone the Welsh actress -- who's been doing some standout work alongside the series' stellar cast of baddies -- hints at yet another major and likely supervillainous change ahead for Barbara, as well her own evolution into a creative force behind the camera.
*  *  *
Given the direction she's gone so far, it seems the next step would be full supervillain. Is that something that sounds fun to play?
Absolutely. I think it's sort of the next natural progression for her. We may or may not see something like that happening in the final episode [of the season].

Do you hope it's a classic?
I know what you're going for here. I know what it is, and it's great.
*  *  *
How does that split with Tabitha affect Barbara?
Oh, quite a lot! It's the culmination of the last episode. It leads to a big change in her.
*  *  *
Would you like to direct an episode of "Gotham"? It's such a stylized show. Is that the way you would want to go with your own personal directing style? It's a very specific look and feel.
Absolutely. Yes. I think it's a great place to start learning, that style, obviously. I'm not sure if I would continue with that particular style for the rest of my career. Obviously, it's a style that's been set up by Danny Cannon and the incredible directors that we have on the show. So I would probably want to find my own style, but I'm very happy to be able to try and emulate that style for "Gotham."
*  *  *
Season 4.
Season 4!

Edited July 2, 2017 by tv echo

[Danielg342]

Given all the stuff going on with his daughter, it wouldn't surprise me if Donal Logue doesn't come back for S4. I hope it would not come down to that, but I can't imagine Gotham is high on his list of priorities right now.

[Kostgard]

They've only shot the first episode so far, and I do know he's already shot some stuff because the show's producer posted pics of him with Ben McKenzie on set on Instagram. I'm sure he's been off work since his daughter disappeared, and it was probably relatively easy to write Harvey out of the rest of the episode. How much longer he's off will surely depend on when this thing with his daughter is resolved.

I hope she comes home soon. Judging by the stuff Donal Logue and his ex-wife have been posting on Twitter, it sounds like maybe they think she ran away or someone took her? It's strange and sounds terrifying and I hope it all ends soon with his daughter safe and sound.

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I hope she comes home soon. Judging by the stuff Donal Logue and his ex-wife have been posting on Twitter, it sounds like maybe they think she ran away or someone took her? It's strange and sounds terrifying and I hope it all ends soon with his daughter safe and sound.

I'm with you there.

My guess- from Donal's Facebook post- is that Jade is going through some kind of identity crisis that hits many transgender youth, and perhaps she doesn't feel that her parents understand when they do. Donal's post ominously referred to "predators within her tribe" that act like they have "all the answers" when they're really just taking advantage of the disillusioned youth.

Sounds to me like it's a parent's worst nightmare, made even worse. I don't think there's a parent among us that has never said something to their child that they regret, and, from what I read about Jade, it sounds like that's what happened- making Jade seek companionship with the wrong crowd.

I'd say it would make for a compelling detective show case if it weren't so real and just so darn heartbreaking.

[tv echo]

Kinda spoilery - from today's Gotham panel at Heroes & Villains FanFest-Nashville...

[tv echo]

Spoilers in this ComicBook.com interview with David Mazouz at Heroes & Villains FanFest-Nashville this weekend...

-- Per David Mazouz, "Bruce really is taking on this vigilante persona" and "the trajectory is just continuing in that direction" and "accelerating in that direction" next season. He also said that Bruce will be taking on a "public persona" which will be a "major part of Bruce's journey this year." He then added: "Batman is coming... The tough part was finding a good Batman voice."

-- He doesn't know what the plans are with Harley Quinn. He thought there might have been plans to bring her in last season's finale, but didn't know what happened.

-- David thought there will be 4 major relationships that will develop next season and that "they will be something different than they have been in the past." Those relationships are Bruce's relationships with Alfred, Selina, Gordon and Lucius. He then said: "With Selina specifically, Selina is also going to be transforming into Catwoman in a major way this season. I'm not going to say too much about that, but she is definitely going to be making a leap into her evolution as Selina as Catwoman... Bruce and Selina's relationship, um, as we knew it before, will really start to crumble, um, because of certain events that happen early on in the season. Catwoman - prototype Catwoman's relationship with masked vigilante Bruce - that will be a different thing altogether."

-- As for seeing a "full-blown" Joker, David said: "I feel like we have to by the end of the show. I hope that, um, when the ending of the show is near, our writers will know that, and will be able to put final characters, and not just the Joker, but of everybody. Because I feel like - the show is leading up to a certain point. It's leading up to the Penguin. It's leading up to the Riddler. It's leading up to Batman. It's leading up to Commissioner Gordon. And I feel like - I really hope that we'll be able to see our versions of those characters be full blown, those characters before the show ends. And I feel like the Joker is one of those characters that really, really is crucial to the Batman lore... I think I'd be comfortable saying that he is the most important character after Batman, um, in the Batman lore."

Gotham Cast Confirms Scarecrow's Return In Season 4
by Megan Peters | July 9, 2017
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/09/gotham-cast-confirms-scarecrows-return-in-season-4/

Quote

During a panel at HVFF, David Mazouz revealed the Scarecrow’s comeback with a straightforward confession.

"Scarecrow comes back in season 4,” the Bruce Wayne actor said. “It’s on full blast, I’m really excited"

Chiming in, Drew Powell teased fans b saying, ”It’s super creepy, too. you’re gonna love it"

Edited July 10, 2017 by tv echo

[Miss Dee]

Holy shit, sounds like they're going full speed ahead with the vigilante stuff! If even just half of it actually comes to fruition I'm gonna be so excited this season!

[Danielg342]

As long as Bruce stays away from receiving any of the high tech gadgets I can get behind vigilante Bruce, even a public one.

Unless we're in the final season- which I doubt- then the characters should not be "fully formed".

[Kostgard]

Yeah, I'm cool with this as long as they don't move too fast. Bruce's journey should really be two steps forward, one step back. He's still a kid, after all, and there's a big difference between "teenager who's taken some judo lessons" and Batman.

But I think by "public persona" he might mean that he's really going to start cultivating the "Bruce Wayne" public persona, thereby putting him on the track to leading two different lives. In season three, he was very reluctant to go out and be seen at key events as Alfred encouraged - like him complaining about going to Oswald's victory party after he won the election, and then basically ditching the party in under two seconds after he spotted Selina. I think maybe going forward he'll see the value in having that "Bruce Wayne" presence in the city that should help further disguise his side job.

[Danielg342]

8 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I think by "public persona" he might mean that he's really going to start cultivating the "Bruce Wayne" public persona, thereby putting him on the track to leading two different lives.

As much as I think he's still too young to be playboy Bruce Wayne, I could get behind that.

[Kathemy]

I think the concept that "Bruce and Selina's relationship will crumble" while "Batman and Catwoman is a different story", as stated by David, is ridiculous.

So, they're really going with that? They're going with Selina not being able to recognize him just because he wears a hoodie? After having trained him, dated him, been his only friend for three years?

[Miss Dee]

Heh - I'd kind of like to see him Niles Crane it, be such a nebbishy, fussy type that there's no way you'd buy him as a badass vigilante. You could kinda believe it of an international playboy once it occurred to you because of masculine stereotypes and whatnot, but not Niles Crane. (Although David Hyde Pierce was *very* fit when he did Frasier, but you wouldn't have believed it if you didn't see it.)

I'd never expect it in a Batman story because it's too outside the norm. Gotham is my only hope, LOL.

[Kathemy]

I have no problem with him "being a playboy", it's not like I didn't drink booze and date girls when I was 16.

My chief problem is that they seem to be erasing what these characters have been for the last three years in order to somehow make them fit better into some misguided notion of "how Batman and Catwoman are supposed to be," even though there have been dozens of adaptations some of which far more ludicrous than Gotham.

They're in danger of destroying what's unique with the show. And David pulling off an "intimidating Batman-type figure" at his age will take a supernatural feat of acting, but at least, I think that kid can do anything.

[DR14]

Yeah, not sure I buy into her not being able to recognize him, at least not for an extended period.

Edited July 11, 2017 by DR14

[Kostgard]

I don't think Bruce will quite hit "playboy" yet (though I'm sure he will eventually realize it will be useful to have people see him as frivolous and carefree, making them less likely to suspect he spends his off-hours fighting crime dressed as a bat). He's just not that smooth yet.  But I think he will finally do what Alfred encouraged him to do last season - go out there and be the public face of Wayne Enterprises and show that he's an active and engaged citizen of the city. So, I think initially it will be more showing up at charity and political events than having a string of girlfriends. 

 

But yeah - I do wonder how they will handle Selina not figuring it out. I can see how maybe she doesn't figure it out at first because she never gets a good look at the guy who is running around in a mask beating up muggers. But in order to be true to the character, she'll have to figure it out sooner rather than later. I'm hoping David meant that their relationship will have to change because they are no longer just kids, and are now starting to walk down significantly different, more "adult" paths rather than "okay, now we have to align ourselves with the Bat/Cat relationship in the comics." Selina isn't just a street kid trying to survive any more. She joined up with Tabitha, a rather significant criminal. She herself will now become a criminal of a similar order as Tabitha, not just someone who picks pockets in order to eat or temporarily joins up with a criminal in order to survive. And Bruce is moving from a kid who was trying to figure out who killed his parents and trying to figure himself out in the aftermath of their deaths to someone who has decided he is going to do something about the crime in the city (something Selina has decided to become a part of). I think their innocent, kid-like relationship died when he kicked her out of the hospital in the season finale. They can rebuild, but it's gonna be different. Hopefully they can do that while remaining true to the core of their connection to each other.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Kostgard

[Chaos Theory]

As far a Bruce's playboy persona it would be interesting to see it grow like everything else.  Something innocent happens and he gets thrown out of a bar/night/restaurant or  something and it gets caught on camera and misinterpreted.  Bruce later mimics the behavior so he can be in two places at once but is genuinely surprised it worked.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Kathemy]

On 7/11/2017 at 6:14 PM, Kostgard said:

She joined up with Tabitha, a rather significant criminal. She herself will now become a criminal of a similar order as Tabitha, not just someone who picks pockets in order to eat or temporarily joins up with a criminal in order to survive.

I know you may not have meant it that way, but if she becomes a criminal of a similar order of Tabitha that will betray everything her character has ever been through 80 years of different comic canon. Tabitha Galavan is a sadistic murderer and she's an awful choice as a mentor for Selina, if we're speaking "character evolution" rather than "leather tights and whips".

[DR14]

On 7/11/2017 at 0:14 PM, Kostgard said:

I don't think Bruce will quite hit "playboy" yet (though I'm sure he will eventually realize it will be useful to have people see him as frivolous and carefree, making them less likely to suspect he spends his off-hours fighting crime dressed as a bat). He's just not that smooth yet.  But I think he will finally do what Alfred encouraged him to do last season - go out there and be the public face of Wayne Enterprises and show that he's an active and engaged citizen of the city. So, I think initially it will be more showing up at charity and political events than having a string of girlfriends. 

 

But yeah - I do wonder how they will handle Selina not figuring it out. I can see how maybe she doesn't figure it out at first because she never gets a good look at the guy who is running around in a mask beating up muggers. But in order to be true to the character, she'll have to figure it out sooner rather than later. I'm hoping David meant that their relationship will have to change because they are no longer just kids, and are now starting to walk down significantly different, more "adult" paths rather than "okay, now we have to align ourselves with the Bat/Cat relationship in the comics." Selina isn't just a street kid trying to survive any more. She joined up with Tabitha, a rather significant criminal. She herself will now become a criminal of a similar order as Tabitha, not just someone who picks pockets in order to eat or temporarily joins up with a criminal in order to survive. And Bruce is moving from a kid who was trying to figure out who killed his parents and trying to figure himself out in the aftermath of their deaths to someone who has decided he is going to do something about the crime in the city (something Selina has decided to become a part of). I think their innocent, kid-like relationship died when he kicked her out of the hospital in the season finale. They can rebuild, but it's gonna be different. Hopefully they can do that while remaining true to the core of their connection to each other.

I don't know what the source of their conflict in Season 4 will be, but I hope it's something more intriguing than what we saw at the end of Season 3 where Bruce is apparently angry with her in the finale because she leaves him with Sonny Gilzean in 3x15 the last time he saw her or if he somehow gained knowledge of her refusal to help Alfred find him in 3x19.

Since the characters seemingly will be undergoing significant Batman/Catwoman development in S4, that shouldn't be too hard.

Edited July 14, 2017 by DR14

[Kostgard]

On 7/12/2017 at 5:31 PM, Kathemy said:

I know you may not have meant it that way, but if she becomes a criminal of a similar order of Tabitha that will betray everything her character has ever been through 80 years of different comic canon. Tabitha Galavan is a sadistic murderer and she's an awful choice as a mentor for Selina, if we're speaking "character evolution" rather than "leather tights and whips".

Oh, no, I didn't mean it that way. I just meant she's going to go from a kid who picked pocket in order to survive to becoming  major player in the crime world, like Tabitha. I can't see Selina gleefully murdering people the way Tabitha does. In fact, I suspect that Selina and Tabitha will frequently be at odds during their partnership, and Selina will eventually give Tabitha the boot (if Tabitha doesn't get killed first).

On a completely different note, I keep seeing all these casting calls for "tanned, toned" people for a beach party and a Miami-style bartender (not sure what that means, exactly, but they seem to be looking for someone who can do nifty flip-the-bottles-around tricks). And I keep thinking, "Who the hell on this show would actually enjoy a beach party?" so, like, who is going to be in those scenes? The only people I could see enjoying a beach party are Babs (who may or may not still be smoldering in a puddle where Tabitha left her), and probably Harvey. 

[DR14]

I think her teamup with Tabitha is an okay concept, but I think it should have happened sooner, like right after her story arc with her mother ended and leaves Bruce.  At that point, Tabitha was still working with Butch and Barbara.

Barbara could've taught Selina how to blend in with high-class society and Tabitha could've taught her how to incorporate accessories like the whip into her fighting.  Then when the crap hits the fan between Barbara and Tabitha, Selina is forced to decide whether to ally with one of them or run off.  Then when S4 starts she is forced to deal with that aftermath.  I think it would've made for a far more intriguing story and sets up intriguing interactions with Bruce as his vigilante career begins.

Instead, she goes to Sonny Gilzean with no purpose, gets pushed out of a window by clone Bruce, spends an entire episode in a coma, refuses to help Alfred when two episodes earlier she couldn't get to Wayne Manor fast enough because Bruce was missing, and her character doesn't progress in a meaningful way until the finale where we are to believe Selina can already handle the whip like an expert and we are left wondering what can she learn from Tabitha.  I hope I am pleasantly surprised.

Edited July 14, 2017 by DR14
Adding more things

[Proteus]

The SDCC TVGuide special confirms that Barbara is alive. The show boss teases it'll be like there are two different Barbara's.

[Miss Dee]

3 hours ago, Proteus said:

The SDCC TVGuide special confirms that Barbara is alive. The show boss teases it'll be like there are two different Barbara's.

Calling it now! Barbara Keane is Two-Face!

[tv echo]

Spoilers from the Gotham article in TV Guide Magazine's COMIC-CON Special issue (released July 12, 2017)...

1. Lee (Morena Baccarin) will be back. Gotham EP John Stephens: "There will be a new version of Lee in [Season 4]."

2. Stephens would "love to bring [Chelsea Spack, who played Kristen Kringle,] back... again. But we've got to find a way to do it that feels like it's fresh."

3. Stephens: "Ra's returns right at the top of the season, and we see what his designs are for Bruce... It all circles around the core idea that Ra's views Bruce as his heir."

4. Per Stephens, Tabitha and Selina "start off as a real pair next season... Those skills that you associate with grown-up Catwoman, we're going to see Tabitha start teaching her at the beginning of this year."

5. On Butch's real name being Cyrus Gold, Stephens: "His arc next season is going to be exciting and a lot of fun... We wanted things to end in a bloody way for Butch, but we didn't want to lose Drew because we love him... and the Cyrus Gold thing fit really well."

6. Barbara (Erin Richards) will be back. TV Guide's Damian Holbrook: "Jim's ex definitely survived being electrocuted by Tabitha, so don't be shocked if a new Babs rises." Stephens: "It's almost like she's two Barbaras." However, Barbara is not becoming a female Two-Face. Stephens: "That's a great idea, though!"

7. Barbara is also not becoming Harley Quinn. Per Stephens, "no one is becoming Harley Quinn."

8. The new season will find Gotham in Penguin's grip once more. Per Stephens, in order to fight Penguin, Jim Gordon will "open up his dark side" more than ever. Stephens: "We see him hit an ethical nadir by the first half of the season."

9. Per Stephens, after Riddler escapes that block of ice, "[h]e's not going to be happy with Oswald." Also per Stephens, Ed "comes out a different Nygma than he went in."

10. New baddies? In addition to the arrival of a major character from the Long Halloween graphic novel, Stephens revealed that there will be a big arc for "probably the most graphically violent, terrifying villain we've brought in. Some people could call him a butcher." Holbrook: "Hint, hint."

Edited July 16, 2017 by tv echo
Edited because I forgot one!

[DR14]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Spoilers from the Gotham article in TV Guide Magazine's COMIC-CON Special issue (released July 12, 2017)...

1. Lee (Morena Baccarin) will be back. Gotham EP John Stephens: "There will be a new version of Lee in [Season 4]."

2. Stephens would "love to bring [Chelsea Spack, who played Kristen Kringle,] back... again. But we've got to find a way to do it that feels like it's fresh."

3. Stephens: "Ra's returns right at the top of the season, and we see what his designs are for Bruce... It all circles around the core idea that Ra's views Bruce as his heir."

4. Per Stephens, Tabitha and Selina "start off as a real pair next season... Those skills that you associate with grown-up Catwoman, we're going to see Tabitha start teaching her at the beginning of this year."

5. On Butch's real name being Cyrus Gold, Stephens: "His arc next season is going to be exciting and a lot of fun... We wanted things to end in a bloody way for Butch, but we didn't want to lose Drew because we love him... and the Cyrus Gold thing fit really well."

6. Barbara (Erin Richards) will be back. TV Guide's Damian Holbrook: "Jim's ex definitely survived being electrocuted by Tabitha, so don't be shocked if a new Babs rises." Stephens: "It's almost like she's two Barbaras."

7. Per Stephens, "no one is becoming Harley Quinn."

8. The new season will find Gotham in Penguin's grip once more. Per Stephens, in order to fight Penguin, Jim Gordon will "open up his dark side" more than ever. Stephens: "We see him hit an ethical nadir by the first half of the season."

9. Per Stephens, after Riddler escapes that block of ice, "[h]e's not going to be happy with Oswald." Also per Stephens, Ed "comes out a different Nygma than he went in."

10. New baddies? In addition to the arrival of a major character from the Long Halloween graphic novel, Stephens revealed that there will be a big arc for "probably the most graphically violent, terrifying villain we've brought in. Some people could call him a butcher." Holbrook: "Hint, hint."

#1 So long as her role isn't to obsess over Jim, ok cool.  Give her something interesting to do please.

#2 Meh

#3 Probably the biggest indicator yet Talia will show up.

#4 Fingers crossed this works well.

#5 Cool

#7 Glad they nipped this in the bud.

#9 Cool

[Kostgard]

Man, if Lee comes back, they need to keep her the hell away from Jim. That relationship is boring as hell. And make her more like season one/two Lee.

Also, bringing Chelsea Spack back? Dude, no. You already brought her back and it wasn't very satisfying because Isabella just fell out of the sky, the perfect woman for Ed, with no compelling explanation.

if there is one main flaw in this show's writing, it is that they keep going back to the same well over and over again, each time with diminishing returns. Lee gets upset and leaves town - nope! She's back! Oswald rises to the top only to lose everything. And everyone he loves dies in his arms. Also, Jim gets darker? Hasn't that been happening for the last 2+ seasons? Unless this results in Jim realizing that he's no better than the criminals he fights and he starts to right the ship and starts to become the upstanding guy surrounded by corruption Jim Gordon is supposed to be, it's more of the same. Same with Ed thawing out and being unhappy with Oswald - well, yeah. He was unhappy with him before he got frozen. I hope they at least put a new spin on it and this "different Nygma" is allowed to be more multifaceted like he was before he turned Riddler.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Kostgard

[Horsesrunwild]

Nothing about Alfred. I guess he is still a background character again this season too. That sucks. I like to learn more about his character. Is it that hard for showrunners to understand.

[SnarkyTart]

14 minutes ago, Horsesrunwild said:

Nothing about Alfred. I guess he is still a background character again this season too. That sucks. I like to learn more about his character. Is it that hard for showrunners to understand.

He and Harvey Bullock can take off on a roadtrip together.  After which they return completely different and changed, yet the same, only moreso.

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

8. The new season will find Gotham in Penguin's grip once more. Per Stephens, in order to fight Penguin, Jim Gordon will "open up his dark side" more than ever. Stephens: "We see him hit an ethical nadir by the first half of the season."

Somebody get poor Ben McKenzie a lozenge, I don't know if his throat can take any more growling angrily while Barbara/Lee/Whoever talks about all of the darkness in him.

[tv echo]

I forgot to include in my original post that the article also said that Barbara is not becoming a female Two-Face.  (I've edited my post with this additional spoiler.)

Edited July 16, 2017 by tv echo

[Miss Dee]

Oh well.

[tv echo]

Scans of spoilery sections of Gotham article in TV Guide's SDCC 2017 cover issue...

[Kathemy]

Thank you!