S04.E01: Glanders

[FormerMod-a1]

Philip and Elizabeth deal with the fallout of all they’ve wrought. What will happen when the FBI finds out about Gene’s suicide? How will Pastor Tim deal with the revelation that they are Russian spies? And will they be able to handle a dangerous, new bioweapons assignment?

 

 

[Hollysdower]

Stupid sexy Glanders!

[crgirl412]

Less than 24 HOURS now!!  YEA!!!!!!

[crgirl412]

Did we know that Nina had a husband??  Who?  Where?  I am a blank.  Also, was the the older man she was sitting across talking with the same one she uuummm..... you know..... back in DC then he was taken away?? 

[AimingforYoko]

So many questions:

Is Martha actually becoming a witting participant? She doesn't know the whole truth, but she definitely knows what she's doing is wrong.

So they are bugging the good pastor, what do they do when they find out he knows? Kill him and they probably lose Paige forever.

So does the KGB know little Philip killed somebody? And would they have picked him anyway?

[Primetimer]

Philip and Elizabeth are trying to deal with an asset who could get Soviets closer to developing a bioweapon, so Paige's wavering BS is, like, the last thing they need added to their list of hassles.

Read the story

[shura]

How does this work again? This Tori person thinks that telling Stan about his ex-wife and Philip is going to be good for her and Stan? It didn't look like a ploy to distance Stan from Sandra, she seemed really concerned when she saw Philip and Sandra together.

 

So does the KGB know little Philip killed somebody? And would they have picked him anyway?

 

I don't know if the KGB knows, but I don't see why it would stop them from recruiting him.

[Umbelina]

Maybe that's WHY the KGB picked him.

 

I too am a little bit lost on some points.  Also, watching it again right now!  SO happy it's back.

[sistermagpie]

How does this work again? This Tori person thinks that telling Stan about his ex-wife and Philip is going to be good for her and Stan? It didn't look like a ploy to distance Stan from Sandra, she seemed really concerned when she saw Philip and Sandra together.

 

I assume she's just truthful--thanks to EST. She thinks Philip's friend is not his friend so she told him.

 

So does the KGB know little Philip killed somebody? And would they have picked him anyway?

 

 

I don't know if there's any reason they would know, but I can't imagine it would be that much of a problem if they did. After all, killing them had a logical motive.

 

I'm not only glad that we got to hear the end of that milk story Philip first tried to tell to Elizabeth (who as usual didn't pick up on the significance and ask him to continue after being interrupted) but that Philip, in fact, killed 2 people that day when he was "a couple of years younger than Henry" in season 2.

 

I know I'll have more to say later, but one thing that for some reason stuck out at me was watching Philip second-guess himself (EST and spywork don't really mix, it seems) is reminded me of when Elizabeth was off her game at the start of Season 2. But back then Philip was much better at seeing it and understanding it. He would suggest small things to help her get her confidence back and if she said she wanted to do something he would just do it even though you'd see him first realize that she was being a little off. Here Elizabeth kept asking Philip if something was wrong but was unable to really understand or help him or really deal with it as smoothly.

 

Which I think is fitting for Philip since he's the two that keeps more secrets. I assume he'll finally take Sandra's advice and tell her about EST which will cause its own problems but at least they won't have a secret between them.

 

Glad Elizabeth has that bug--Philip seems less worried about Paige at the moment, but then, Elizabeth was the one who actually saw Paige in Germany. Maybe unconsciously she gets that she shouldn't be so confident while Philip has other things to worry about.

 

Philip was a master with Martha using the EST stuff and his actual torment to manipulate her--but at the same time probably really wanting to confess and get some forgiveness from somebody since he couldn't get it from the "bully."

 

I love that Stan's really kind of an ass and I think that's really going to come back to bite him. I mean, he's really smart but he's alienated people at the office (except Martha who he seems to be nice to because he's working her) and now he might be isolating himself from his best friend. Who, if you cut out the whole spying thing, deserves better treatment. Still it was yet another fantastic little trick to have Philip playing the guy who can't fight back confronted by the scary FBI guy (Stan was described in one review as having that "mid-American swagger of a gym teacher who calls everyone by their last name" to Philip's "milquetoast American white guy") when in the rest of the ep he's feeling bad that he's been a killer since childhood.

 

Pastor Tim and Paige are both kind of nuts. I'm really much more comfortable with Philip knowing state secrets--including US ones--than those two. As it should be. Great laugh line when Pastor Tim wanted to know if they could all 4 talk. Even if we weren't talking about him accidentally uncovering a Soviet Spy Ring at the height of the Cold War, her parents can't stand him--and for good reason. Pastor Tim does really well with certain types of people but I don't know if he gets how he comes across to others.

 

Felt bad being impatient with Nina. It's a little like those last eps of Mad Men where I didn't want to leave NY to check up on Hobo!Don.

Edited March 17, 2016 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

Philip took Sandra's advice and went and told his wife some of his true feelings -- in some ways Martha is more his wife than Elizabeth. Fascinating that he is with her now with none of the "Clark" getup. I'll bet he hasn't told Elizabeth that he's doing that. 

[sistermagpie]

Philip took Sandra's advice and went and told his wife some of his true feelings -- in some ways Martha is more his wife than Elizabeth.

 

 

I never understand when people say this. How is Martha more of a wife than Elizabeth? She's not his wife at all.

[crgirl412]

Glanders http://www.cdc.gov/glanders/index.html

 

Pastor Tim and Paige ARE nuts and I trust Philip and Elizabeth more than those two as well! 

 

Also, KGB + EST = HUGE Disaster!!!!  Philip is truth-seeker of the highest-order.  It will be EST that cracks him not the KGB.    

[shura]

I assume she's just truthful--thanks to EST. She thinks Philip's friend is not his friend so she told him.

 

I see. Well, I hope Stan is more analytical and evidence-oriented in his FBI work than he was here. He knows that Sandra and Philip were friends before his marriage fell apart. He knows all of them went to EST at one time or another and they just might have bumped into each other there again. He knows Sandra has that Arthur guy in her life. He shouldn't rush to judgement and start beating up people and ending friendships just because his girlfriend thinks she saw something. Love, I suppose. At least he was considerate enough not to accuse Philip in front of his wife.

 

I have to say, I kind of liked Pastor Tim's idea of getting together with Paige's Soviet spy parents and just talking things out. Clueless and naive, sure. But it fits him. He is the kind of guy who just might think that, God willing, everything can be talked out, and that he is just the person to facilitate it.

 

Philip looked like something from a Tolstoy novel with that beard. Way to blend in.

Edited March 17, 2016 by shura

[jjj]

I never understand when people say this. How is Martha more of a wife than Elizabeth? She's not his wife at all.

I believe the Philip/Martha wedding was a legal wedding? 

Many posters here have said the Philip/Elizabeth marriage was never official.  I thought it was back in Season One, but have deferred to posters who have said they never married legally - although they have a great deal of forged paperwork for their identities, so there may be a forged marriage license in there. 

 

I kind of laughed when Paige was standing in the hallway during the Pledge of Allegiance.  Trying to figure out her national allegiance. 

 

Where is the white sports car?! 

[PinkRibbons]

I -- TINY MISHA BACKSTORY!

 

There's so much more to look at -- I actually said to my sister a day or so ago, "The show is coming back and we're going to spend the next 12 weeks with our buttholes clenched with tension", but I have to scream about this because FINALLY.

 

I think the KGB found Philip in a home for naughty boys, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were deliberately combing homes for naughty boys looking for recruits. Philip probably passed a psychological profile as someone who can kill when it feels necessary and not all willy-nilly. They could have blackmailed him about his past after being let out of the naughty boys home. Plus I bet his entire training was built on them reinforcing guilt.

 

Meanwhile I just asked my mother if life as a Soviet child would lead someone to snap and kill and she yes with no qualifiers. She says especially after the war with no restraining male influences around and gangs of young men who were half wild running around you spent your life under siege. And she says tat for boys it was worse because they were always a more justifiable target.

 

In a similar situation, 20 years after this would have happened, my mom had to pass a guy every day on her way home, and every single time he'd call her a filthy Jew. Until finally one day she snapped and attacked him with teeth and claws and fists. She was 12, he was 18 and twice her size, and she was so full of rage that she didn't feel him putting a cigarette out on her arm. She says it was the first time she realized what a killing rage was (by the way, she didn't see red, she said it was green circles), and if she'd had any kind of physical advantage she would have killed him.

 

This is my mother. My mother is a placid, intelligent, extremely lovable creature. Other kids want her as their mother. I've only ever seen her in anything close to that kind of a rage when she felt her children were being threatened. I truly think the way kids felt and reacted in the Soviet Union was dictated by their surroundings, and their surroundings at times brought out primal instinct. It didn't help that you never bothered adults with your problems. You were responsible for you and that was that.

 

And on a final note, that kid playing him looks so much like Henry it freaks me out.

[izabella]

Philip took Sandra's advice and went and told his wife some of his true feelings -- in some ways Martha is more his wife than Elizabeth. Fascinating that he is with her now with none of the "Clark" getup. I'll bet he hasn't told Elizabeth that he's doing that. 

 

Does that mean Philip knows he's going to have to kill Martha at some point?

[Hollysdower]

I swear, just for a second, I saw Donald Sutherland's face in the crowd at EST.

 

 

I think the KGB found Philip in a home for naughty boys, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were deliberately combing homes for naughty boys looking for recruits. Philip probably passed a psychological profile as someone who can kill when it feels necessary and not all willy-nilly.

 

I agree, PinkRibbons.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Hollysdower

[albaniantv]

Kept looking for Henry all through the episode. Did I miss him? Hope he has not been recast because he reached that awkward, gangling all legs and Adam's apple stage. 

Not sure why I felt reassured seeing Gabriel when I don't trust him any more than Philip does. Not that I think Gabriel would do anything to compromise them, just if they got in a tight corner, would he really fight for anyone except Elizabeth? But, still, at least someone experienced can help them strategize, especially now when Philip is going in at least 2 different directions (EST & West?).

 

Martha has proved quite adaptable so far, she evolves right along with the best of them. I'm betting she will figure out the dangers she is in and come up with some counter moves. She looked at Philip with eyes open for the first time this episode....and then she needed to go deep asleep. Kind of the opposite of Philip who is getting very little sleep while he relives his boyhood. Can't believe we have waited 4 years to find out anything about the young Philip.

[mwell345]

 

I swear, just for a second, I saw Donald Sutherland's face in the crowd at EST.

 

I did too. With the long hair.   In fact, I checked IMDB to see if he had a credit.  Looked just like him. 

 

Overall, I thought it was a good episode and the season looks promising.  

 

Does Martha know for sure that Philip is a Russian spy?  I can't remember what she knows and doesn't know.  Irregardless, he is taking a big risk with her, there is really nothing to stop her from walking into her boss's office and spilling the beans for some kind of immunity deal.  And she's seen him without his disguise, so there's that as well.  This show is pretty tight, and yet this part seems loose to me.   I know she's valuable to Philip, but is worth the risk?

 

Wasn't sure what to make of the Pastor, because, I think, realistically, he would have gone to the authorities.  At one point, I thought he might be playing Paige - there was something in the way he looked at her when he told her to find out more and then come back. Maybe he wants more info before he does anything.

 

I'm bored with the EST stuff (I was bored with it last season too), I only hope that it really is leading up to something.

[Chaos Theory]

My one question is why everyone thinks Philip is going to kill Martha. He has gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing her. Plus she has proved how useful...and loyal she is. I compare her to maybe Gregory and think if anything she might eventually be offered sancuntary somewhere else or on the other side get caught by Stan.

I doubt she will get killed at this point in the story.

[mwell345]

 

My one question is why everyone thinks Philip is going to kill Martha. He has gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing her. Plus she has proved how useful...and loyal she is. I compare her to maybe Gregory and think if anything she might eventually be offered sancuntary somewhere else or on the other side get caught by Stan.

I doubt she will get killed at this point in the story.

 

Oh, I think you are right.   I lost track how many times I thought he was going to kill her and he didn't.  The logical time to do it would have been when they found the recorder.   He could have made it look like a suicide (an overdose) and not left any note to tie her to the recorder.   No one knows about him and her so it might have just appeared to be a lonely woman taking her life.   FBI might have tied her to the recorder, but I doubt they could tie her to him. Of course, I don't know - his prints are probably all over her apartment, but do they even have his prints on file anywhere?

 

She is useful and loyal as you said, and I also think he genuinely cares about her.  That may prove to be a problem for him.

Edited March 17, 2016 by mwell345

[dippydee]

Yikes Philip! This is going to end so badly. He's cracking and the fact that Elizabeth doesn't have a clue is going to lead to trouble.

Poor Martha. She's getting sucked deeper and deeper into this whole thing. At least now she's getting some honesty from Philip so that's at least some comfort. But I'm still worried about her dying.

I feel bad for Paige. Sure trusting PastorTim is stupid but look at what she's dealing with, her parents are spying spies. She's stuck, she's got no one to talk to, Elizabeth is oblivious and Philip is in the middle of his own breakdown. She's making a huge mistake with PastorTim but I'm not blaming her. I still find him creepy as heck though- I wouldn't mind Elizabeth disappearing him (but in a way that doesn't alienate Paige even more).

[Blakeston]

Does Martha know for sure that Philip is a Russian spy?  I can't remember what she knows and doesn't know

She's never been told who "Clark" works for, or what his cause is. On some level, she has to know that it's most likely that he works for the Soviets - but she'd rather not know.

 

My one question is why everyone thinks Philip is going to kill Martha. He has gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing her. Plus she has proved how useful...and loyal she is. I compare her to maybe Gregory and think if anything she might eventually be offered sancuntary somewhere else or on the other side get caught by Stan.

I doubt she will get killed at this point in the story.

Philip killing Martha always seemed like the most logical endgame for her character.

The Center is willing to kill off an asset when they become a liability, and once the recorder was found, it became very dangerous to leave her alive. Once she realized that he wasn't with the U.S. government, and that she'd been doing illegal things on his behalf, there was a strong chance she'd give him up to the authorities - especially if she got caught.

Things may have changed now, though. She knows her husband manipulated her into committing treason, and that he's a murderer, and she's still loyal to him. That gives the Soviets far more reason to let her live.

[crashdown]

Wonderful to have the show back in our lives! It gave us so many things to think about, but the laugh-out-loud moment for me was when P & E were waiting for the bio-terrorism contact and started talking about Henry's terrible cologne. Moments like that are emblematic of the show's wonderful blend of the conflicting businesses of spying and parenting.

[Trillian]

Great laugh line when Pastor Tim wanted to know if they could all 4 talk. Even if we weren't talking about him accidentally uncovering a Soviet Spy Ring at the height of the Cold War, her parents can't stand him--and for good reason. Pastor Tim does really well with certain types of people but I don't know if he gets how he comes across to others.

 

It's really an hilarious image - can you see them sitting down in his church and his asking him to confess how they feel about being Soviet spies?

 

I actually said to my sister a day or so ago, "The show is coming back and we're going to spend the next 12 weeks with our buttholes clenched with tension",

 

Something which, according to Oleg, would allow us all to beat a polygraph.

[Mozelle]

I see. Well, I hope Stan is more analytical and evidence-oriented in his FBI work than he was here. He knows that Sandra and Philip were friends before his marriage fell apart. He knows all of them went to EST at one time or another and they just might have bumped into each other there again. He knows Sandra has that Arthur guy in her life. He shouldn't rush to judgement and start beating up people and ending friendships just because his girlfriend thinks she saw something. Love, I suppose. At least he was considerate enough not to accuse Philip in front of his wife.

 

I have to say, I kind of liked Pastor Tim's idea of getting together with Paige's Soviet spy parents and just talking things out. Clueless and naive, sure. But it fits him. He is the kind of guy who just might think that, God willing, everything can be talked out, and that he is just the person to facilitate it.

 

Philip looked like something from a Tolstoy novel with that beard. Way to blend in.

 

The last part that I highlighted--Pastor Tim believing himself to be just the person to facilitate a talk between Paige, her parents, and him--is just the thing that further annoys me about Pastor Tim. There's a certain--arrogance? I don't know--something about Pastor Tim thinking that he can speak with parents who he knows don't care for him. I mean, Philip hemmed him up real good last season (or maybe it was the season before?) and gave him that look that only Philip can, which should make you reevaluate your entire life. And here comes Tim all, "Paige, let's get your parents in here to talk about this spy thing, shall we?" Holy hell!

 

I'll have to go back and re-watch the episode because I was trying to do too many things at once with the show running in the background. I'd really like to digest the scenes with Clark and Martha as well as piece together how what's happening at the Rezidentura ties into what Gabriel is asking of Elizabeth and Philip. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Mozelle

[Trillian]

Did we know that Nina had a husband??  Who?  Where?  I am a blank.  Also, was the the older man she was sitting across talking with the same one she uuummm..... you know..... back in DC then he was taken away?? 

Nina told Evie when she was first chatting her up that she had a husband.  I assumed at the time that she was just making him up so as to get closer to Evie or that she was exaggerating her relationship with Oleg and/or Stan - or indicating that she felt one or both of those relationships was more meaningful than we thought.  Turns out, there's a "real" husband out there.

 

I never understand when people say this. How is Martha more of a wife than Elizabeth? She's not his wife at all.

 

This seems to be one of the themes of the show.  What is a "real" spouse?  Is it someone with whom you've lived for 20 years, had kids with, whose back you've had over and over again, even if you've never had a ceremony?  Does the ceremony matter?  Martha and Clark had a ceremony, but that's not a legal marriage either, since it was under false pretences and a fake name (that vitiates consent).  But Philip has obviously come to care for Martha as a person and wants to protect her.  Remember General Zhukov's "when you take care of someone, you come to love [him]" ? I don't think he was solely talking about his dog.  I think both women have a claim to be called a wife, although neither one went through a legally binding ceremony.

[RedHawk]

Pastor Tim seems to have forgotten that initial visit from Philip, whose shiny black gloves would have been enough to make me ask Jesus to send Paige to another church. Tim's arrogance is infuriating -- I don't think we're supposed to like him. I think Paige will soon see some cracks in his holy facade.

Martha DID think she made legally binding vows. She took her marriage very seriously and Philip saw that she was all in. When, after she realized Clark was not who he said, he told her she was "good and honest and true" he was manipulating her, but I also think he believes that about her and has come to admire (possibly love?) her for it. He certainly has some guilt because he realizes how deeply he has betrayed her and wrecked her life.

[Chaos Theory]

I was thinking about this a little too much. MY THINKING SHOW IS BACK!!!!

Martha is actually a fairly dangerous spy. She is certainly more dangerous then Nina. Nina who used her sexual wiles and nearly got two master spies to betray their respective country's . Nearly. In the end Nina walked away with nothing except a second chance to do things differently.

What has our dear sweet unassuming naive Poor Martha accomplished? She placed a bugged pen in Gaad's office the head of the FBI intelligence unit. She routinely passes info to Clarke/Philip including that thing about the mail robot needing to be fixed, when Walter Talbot was looking for the spy his question to her were not "I think it's you" and more "who do you think it is?".

My long winded point is there is no current reason to kill off Martha and plenty of reasons to keep her alive. She is hella useful especially now. The biggest danger is her finding out about Elizabeth but even that can be contained as long as she believes Philip loves her.

The question has always been does Philip love Martha? I flip flop on that often. Right now I am on yes. Maybe not enough to leave his family. Maybe he views Martha the way a man views his mistress. Yes I love you but why are you asking for more? It's a bad example but the only one I can come up with.

<---edited because I typed this on my phone during my lunch break.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

I believe the Philip/Martha wedding was a legal wedding?

 

 

I guess, though Clark doesn't exist. I thought you meant "real wife" in like an emotional sense.

 

I think the KGB found Philip in a home for naughty boys, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were deliberately combing homes for naughty boys looking for recruits. Philip probably passed a psychological profile as someone who can kill when it feels necessary and not all willy-nilly.

 

 

 

I definitely assume they found him in some kind of home like that--though again, I don't think he'd be chosen as an *Illegal* for those reasons. KGB, perhaps. But for an Illegal I'd assume being able to kill is simply something you teach the same way you'd teach a soldier. The thing that makes you stand out there (and I believe in real life Directorate-S is quite separate from the rest of the KGB so they do their own recruiting from civilians) is things like an aptitude for languages. Not so far off, I don't think, from how they choose spies everywhere. In the end he wasn't chosen to be an assassin or a heavy, but a spy who's supposed to blend in with the enemy and not look scary. 

 

So my guess is where his violent past comes into it (and I'd bet he'd have gotten into more fights in any home he was in too, if he had to) is that they noted not just that he could be violent if confronted but that he generally tried to avoid it and had a bucketload of deflection techniques he uses in every day life. We see him doing that more than killing, the way he turns every conversation to the other person, always looks for the impression he's making and adjusts accordingly, is always sending out "nothing to see here" signals, doesn't let on all that he knows. These are the things that would make me think he'd be an excellent spy.

 

Kept looking for Henry all through the episode. Did I miss him? Hope he has not been recast because he reached that awkward, gangling all legs and Adam's apple stage.

 

 

Wasn't in the ep but he's played by the same kid.

 

Does Martha know for sure that Philip is a Russian spy?

 

 

Nope. She probably suspects he's working for the Russians since they're the main people interested in this stuff, but I'd be surprised if she thought he actually was Russian. That's another de-wigging moment, I'd think. It's very freaky for someone to suddenly reveal they're a totally different nationality and "should" have an accent.

 

But Philip has obviously come to care for Martha as a person and wants to protect her.  Remember General Zhukov's "when you take care of someone, you come to love [him]" ? I don't think he was solely talking about his dog.  I think both women have a claim to be called a wife, although neither one went through a legally binding ceremony.

 

 

I was more just thinking that I don't think Philip thinks of Martha as his wife at all. She really is more like someone he takes care of and protects. He thinks of his wife more as somebody equal who takes care of him and really knows him for who he is (as much as she can). But I do think he really likes Martha, a little more so every time she does something like forgive him for something terrible.

[maczero]

That's it.  I'm no longer in Martha's corner.  I felt sorry for her at one time but now she's gone all in with being Philip's source so no more sympathy for her.  The worst part is I bet a part of her finds it romantic that Philip killed someone to protect her.

I wish the story would've had Martha say she's done spying for Philip.  She can still be loyal enough to not turn him in but I wish she would've said "I'm done with this shit" when he asked her to get the security detail files.  It would've put Philip in a tough spot because killing her would lead to an investigation into her death and leaving her would probably make her want to snitch.

The last part that I highlighted--Pastor Tim believing himself to be just the person to facilitate a talk between Paige, her parents, and him--is just the thing that further annoys me about Pastor Tim. There's a certain--arrogance? I don't know--something about Pastor Tim thinking that he can speak with parents who he knows don't care for him. I mean, Philip hemmed him up real good last season (or maybe it was the season before?) and gave him that look that only Philip can, which should make you reevaluate your entire life. And here comes Tim all, "Paige, let's get your parents in here to talk about this spy thing, shall we?" Holy hell!

 

I don't think Pastor Tim had any idea of how much danger he was in when Philip came to visit him.  He probably figured Philip was going threaten him or maybe even try to fight him.  I'm sure a guy like him has probably been punched in the face a time or two so I think he was prepared for it.  Probably even thought it would earn some sympathy points with Paige if she learned her father attacked him.  What Pastor Tim didn't know was that Phil was dealing with some serious emotional shit at the time and was just looking for someone to take his frustrations out on.  If Phil had snapped during that meeting, I don't think he would've stopped at just an ass kicking. 

[Helena Dax]

I feel like this was a huge step for Martha. Philip gave her an out and she didn't take it, she wanted to keep spying on her people. She isn't an innocent victim anymore.

 

I can't believe Philip and Elizabeth are going to hide that bio-weapon in their own house. It's too dangerous, especially for Henry!

 

Pastor Tim isn't a bad person, but I don't like him and I'd love to see him realizing he's been underestimating the situation with the Jennings all along. Finding out that he doesn't know everything may be a huge surprise for him. Otoh, perhaps he suspects there's something very serious going on with the Jennings and he's trying to get more information from Paige. Anyway, if he gets hurt or killed, even if it's just a real accident, Paige is going to blame her parents. I don't think their relationship could survive that.

[Umbelina]

I dunno.

 

I've always suspected Father Tim of more, and the writers have denied it, said he's just a pastor.

 

Still, I don't think it was a mistake for Father Tim to awkwardly deliver that line urging Paige to get more information for him, and it was beyond bizarre to suggest she get her parents in there "to talk."

 

FOUR possibilities for that last part.

 

1. Father Tim really is a complete idiot and has no idea whatsoever about the Cold War, the nuclear threat and terror that suffused the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.  He really is stupid enough to invite Russian spies to his home or church "to talk" and merely fix Paige's home life with his faith.
2. Father Tim already told someone, at least in broad strokes, possibly his superior in the Church, and they suggested he compile evidence, possibly even get the Russians on tape, at the very least, get some details to prove or disprove this teenager's claims.
3. He's already called the cops, and they suggested this, either because they doubt the teenager's tale, or they are trying to get rid of him, because he sounds like a nut.
4. He's planning to make contact with the FBI, but personally feels he needs more proof.

 

Agents on all sides were reluctant, but willing to kill their spies and sources if needed to protect cover, or an operation.  It wasn't desirable, but it was part of the deal, I'm sure it still is.  The honey trap (what Philip did with Martha or Nina with Stan) was a much more common method that people think, even though blackmail (often about money, misdeeds, or homosexuality) or bribery were also common.  Ideology, someone who really believes in a cause or system is another.  There are others of course, this is kind of a fun read, books are better, but this is handily on line with links.  Ha.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_HUMINT_asset_recruiting#Development

 

I think that's why I am totally in on Martha's story.  She's real to me, she has incredible access and is a very valuable spy.  I do believe Philip has begun to care for her in more than an "agent running a spy" way.  He's more "real" with her in many ways than he is with Elizabeth, at least about his fears and emotions.  It was interesting to see  dowdy Martha return, she's been through hell, and it shows.  She was kind of perking up and it showed in her looks last season.  The costume designers and make up people do a great job of hiding any assets and emphasizing and flaws in her.

I feel like this was a huge step for Martha. Philip gave her an out and she didn't take it, she wanted to keep spying on her people. She isn't an innocent victim anymore.

 

I can't believe Philip and Elizabeth are going to hide that bio-weapon in their own house. It's too dangerous, especially for Henry!

 

Pastor Tim isn't a bad person, but I don't like him and I'd love to see him realizing he's been underestimating the situation with the Jennings all along. Finding out that he doesn't know everything may be a huge surprise for him. Otoh, perhaps he suspects there's something very serious going on with the Jennings and he's trying to get more information from Paige. Anyway, if he gets hurt or killed, even if it's just a real accident, Paige is going to blame her parents. I don't think their relationship could survive that.

Let's hope they put it in a better container!

 

Edited because 3 is not 4.  duh

Edited March 17, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Three possibilities for that last part.

 

 

One and four are the only ones that make sense for me. Just because 2 and 3 basically just move the stupid onto someone else, with someone being told people are Russian spies and suggesting that person play Jr. G-man on their own to get evidence on them. Like, how would you think they could do that?

 

One and four leave it all on Pastor Tim and while it makes him out to be an idiot, I think there's a lot of evidence that they mean him to be this kind of clueless. It's always been his MO to step in and see himself as the one who can see the answers to everything. I could totally believe, given what we've seen, that if he's not going to have the obvious reaction of "Oh, Russian spies...okay I need to call the FBI" that he's going to handle this himself based on his own past behavior. And these are his usual patterns--the church group kid who tells them about their parents, his offering the parents a welcome at the church to unscrew themselves up, the gentle guidance about right and wrong based on what he himself thinks. It's almost comical to think they just asked themselves how Pastor Tim would react to literally any other problem and just applied it to spying. 

 

But then it seems like he and Paige could just move further in opposite directions with Pastor Tim becoming more alarmed at the potential crimes being committed and wanting to Do The Right Thing that way while Paige becomes more alarmed at Pastor Tim being exactly what her parents warned her he'd be--someone who wants to put them in jail. And Paige has pretty much never disagreed with Pastor Tim on anything. Usually he gives her advice and she blushingly agrees with it or looks up to him as a hero. Now she's like, "What...? NO!" And yet I'll bet this stuff isn't exactly new to her either. This probably isn't the first time he's suggested her parents coming in for a chat--we know he invited on the Mission Trip--and up until now she's probably just kind of mumbled that she doesn't think they're interested. 

[gwhh]

Does anyone else get the vibe that Pastor Groovy hair does NOT believe Paige story?  Or think she adding on to what her parents told her or mom and dad smoked a little bit too much drugs doing the Vietnam war? 

[Chaos Theory]

Does anyone else get the vibe that Pastor Groovy hair does NOT believe Paige story? Or think she adding on to what her parents told her or mom and dad smoked a little bit too much drugs doing the Vietnam war?

I just think he's not willing to take a teenagers story as straight up fact without further information. Plus we don't know for sure where his loyalties actually lie. Elizabeth did say It was a liberal church. It's possible he might actually be sympathetic to the socialist cause.

[sistermagpie]

I just think he's not willing to take a teenagers story as straight up fact without further information. Plus we don't know for sure where his loyalties actually lie. Elizabeth did say It was a liberal church. It's possible he might actually be sympathetic to the socialist cause.

 

 

Of course, so far the only further information he's going for is going to come from the same source--Paige. Unless he's also doing something else, but I don't think he is.

 

I do think that they were careful to load Pastor Tim's character with things that would make him slow to pull the trigger here. He fancies himself a radical and likes to look like a hero to kids like Paige. 

[Umbelina]

FOUR possibilities for that last part.

 

1.     Father Tim really is a complete idiot and has no idea whatsoever about the Cold War, the nuclear threat and terror that suffused the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.  He really is stupid enough to invite Russian spies to his home or church "to talk" and merely fix Paige's home life with his faith.
2.     Father Tim already told someone, at least in broad strokes, possibly his superior in the Church, and they suggested he compile evidence, possibly even get the Russians on tape, at the very least, get some details to prove or disprove this teenager's claims.
3.     He's already called the cops, and they suggested this, either because they doubt the teenager's tale, or they are trying to get rid of him, because he sounds like a nut.
4.     He's planning to make contact with the FBI, but personally feels he needs more proof.

 

I forgot to change the 3 to 4.  duh.

 

Anyway,

1 seems impossible to me, he grew up with the Cuba Missile Crisis and drills jumping under desks at schools. 

2 seems likely, if his church has some kind of hierarchy, which I'm not sure about.

3 seems possible, and no, I don't think the cops would believe him or at least they wouldn't believe a teenager, they'd probably assume he was a nut.

4 actually seems most likely to me, he's looking for proof, so that's why he said those things so awkwardly to Paige about telling him more.

 

Of the four, I'd go with 3&4 as being most likely, but is there is probably a 5 and 6 I haven't thought of.

[BananaRama]

Does anyone else get the vibe that Pastor Groovy hair does NOT believe Paige story?  Or think she adding on to what her parents told her or mom and dad smoked a little bit too much drugs doing the Vietnam war?

I was thinking that too. I don't think he thinks Paige is a liar, but she is a kid. I'm sure he hears a lot of confessions, but golly! This is a humdinger! "Hey, Pastor Groovy Hair - you know that Cold War that going on and how every night on the news there is a story about Russian and Nuclear War? Well, my parents are spies...Russian spies! They were born in the Soviet Union and speak Russian and everything! Not only that, but we live next door to an FBI agent and my dad is best friends with that FBI Agent!"

[Dowel Jones]

5.  Maybe PastorTim harbors some sympathy toward Russia and actually wants to join in the cause.  Or maybe he's already there and Philip/Elizabeth don't know about it.

 

She knows her husband manipulated her into committing treason, and that he's a murderer, and she's still loyal to him.

 

I wonder if Martha realizes how thin the ice is under her feet, and is actually trying to play Philip a bit in order to buy time for her to make a plan to get out from under the anvil, so to speak.  I know she hasn't been written to show that much cleverness, but maybe she has an innate sense of self preservation.

[tennisgurl]

See Stan. Shit like that? Is why no one in the office likes you.

 

So great to have this show back. Its ability to infuse a scene that is just two people sitting on a park bench talking with such tension is just incredible. Its been way too long since I saw Philip and Elizabeth and company. 

 

I swear, every flashback we get to Philip/Misha`s past is even more bleak and depressing then the last one. This whole show could be re named "Philip needs a vacation". 

 

At this point, I do not see Philip killing Martha. Not only would it not make sense (she is a willing participant in the spy stuff now), but he cares about her a lot, and has bent over backwards making sure he does not have to kill her. That being said, I do not see her surviving the whole show. At best, she will get to disappear with a new identity or something. At worst? Jail or someone (maybe not Philip, but someone from the Center, or even from a different side) kills her. 

[BananaRama]

I think Martha will be killed before the end of the season. Stan is really good at believing his gut feelings and I think his gut is going to continue telling him that something is up with Martha and it is not only going to lead back to her spying on the FBI but also to Philip's cover. Philip will have to kill her and it will break his heart.

[jrlr]

I -- TINY MISHA BACKSTORY!

 

There's so much more to look at -- I actually said to my sister a day or so ago, "The show is coming back and we're going to spend the next 12 weeks with our buttholes clenched with tension", but I have to scream about this because FINALLY.

 

I think the KGB found Philip in a home for naughty boys, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were deliberately combing homes for naughty boys looking for recruits. Philip probably passed a psychological profile as someone who can kill when it feels necessary and not all willy-nilly. They could have blackmailed him about his past after being let out of the naughty boys home. Plus I bet his entire training was built on them reinforcing guilt.

 

Meanwhile I just asked my mother if life as a Soviet child would lead someone to snap and kill and she yes with no qualifiers. She says especially after the war with no restraining male influences around and gangs of young men who were half wild running around you spent your life under siege. And she says tat for boys it was worse because they were always a more justifiable target.

 

And on a final note, that kid playing him looks so much like Henry it freaks me out.

This!  Sounds like all the earmarks of a crumbling society - and it unfortunately sounds a LOT like some of the gangs, police and violence problems we're seeing here in this country.  I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it, but I'm a big fan of "Intervention," and from watching it, it's clear what not having a stable male influence in a boy's life does to his psychological and emotional development.  

 

Your mom sounds awesome!  

 

I'm doubting that the KGB found Phillip/Misha in any kind of juvenile facility because I doubt Russia even had juvenile facilities in the dire post-war years (assuming that Phillip would have been a kid in the late 40's/early 50's?).  The country had way too many other financial and social problems to take on the little misfits.  I got the feeling that Misha was just another street kid whose behavior got noticed by local authorities who then passed his name up the line to the KGB as a potential asset.  

 

I'm SO glad this show is back!  

[Bad Example]

I was thinking that too. I don't think he thinks Paige is a liar, but she is a kid. I'm sure he hears a lot of confessions, but golly! This is a humdinger! "Hey, Pastor Groovy Hair - you know that Cold War that going on and how every night on the news there is a story about Russian and Nuclear War? Well, my parents are spies...Russian spies! They were born in the Soviet Union and speak Russian and everything! Not only that, but we live next door to an FBI agent and my dad is best friends with that FBI Agent!"

I'd like this to go even a step further- that Pastor Tim thinks Paige is genuinely disturbed and that's part of his motivation for trying to get her parents in. He knows they don't like him, but surely, surely, they care enough about their daughter to understand that she's a deeply troubled girl who with some bizarre beliefs?  

Because no matter how seriously you take the Cold War and Russian Spies, the idea of them showing up in your own little backyard is faintly ridiculous... even when it's not.

 

[maczero]

I wonder if Martha realizes how thin the ice is under her feet, and is actually trying to play Philip a bit in order to buy time for her to make a plan to get out from under the anvil, so to speak.  I know she hasn't been written to show that much cleverness, but maybe she has an innate sense of self preservation.

I would've considered that last season after the bug was found and Phil told her that he wasn't really with the FBI.  But now, after hearing that Philip killed her co-worker and she's still provided him with intel, I'm pretty sure she's gone all in.  

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe I am hoping Martha survives because she is my favore nonJennings character. How did that happen? Alison Wright was fabulous in the opening scene. The shock and heartbreak of finding out that Clarke/Philip just killed a man to keep her safe and then to watch her turn it into determination to make the relationship work. Watching her steal files from the FBI while everyone was in shock over Gene's "suicide" for treason and then have a nice chat with Stan with stolen files in her arms. She has come a long way. Yes she has become my favorite character and I don't see things ending well for her but I hope the show doesnt kill her at least.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Helena Dax]

Now Martha's betraying her country for him, but if she ever finds out he's got another wife and two kids... And she's got a gun. We all know someone's going to use it, sooner or later.

[shura]

4. He's planning to make contact with the FBI, but personally feels he needs more proof.

 

This only makes sense to me if he doesn't believe Paige and is looking for proof that she is wrong (which, in turn, would mean that he is not planning to contact the FBI). Because if he believes her and thinks they may indeed be Russian spies, then he is completely nuts if he is not calling the FBI right away. If it were me, I'd call and let them deal with it. I'd certainly not be thinking "before I get trained professionals involved, I better investigate these scary people myself to get more proof. Where are my stakeout clothes?" 

 

I can't believe Philip and Elizabeth are going to hide that bio-weapon in their own house. It's too dangerous, especially for Henry!

 

It's not weaponized. Henry would have to open the vial and snort its contents or rub it on his skin to get infected.

[sistermagpie]

I wonder if Martha realizes how thin the ice is under her feet, and is actually trying to play Philip a bit in order to buy time for her to make a plan to get out from under the anvil, so to speak.  I know she hasn't been written to show that much cleverness, but maybe she has an innate sense of self preservation.

 

 

Honestly, I can't see anything she was doing here that would help her. Knowing more about what Philip does just makes her more of a spy. I guess the best she could hope for would be that she'd learn about some huge plan that she could tell the FBI about that was so huge they would forgive her for all the treason, but that's unlikely. As of now all she did was basically agree--almost offer--to do more active spying. That's not really buying for time.

 

I got the feeling that Misha was just another street kid whose behavior got noticed by local authorities who then passed his name up the line to the KGB as a potential asset.

 

 

But they did have orphanages--plenty of them, I believe, since there were so many orphans. I think it wasn't unusual for orphans to spend some time on their own on the street too. So Philip could definitely be in a regular orphanage and be noticed there. We know that somehow he has to come to the attention of somebody and I keep coming back to my trouble with the idea that violence=potential spy. Directorate S did much more recruiting from students who studied languages. Plus we see Philip now and even earlier in his life when he's a teenager with Irina and he seems very much your average good citizen. So it's possible he was in an orphanage and excelled in school (we know he's a curious learner) and was even working towards getting himself out of Siberia and into a better job. That's basically how he is now, really--somebody who seems gentle but can be violent.

 

So I guess they could notice him for his thug potential and then realize when they start developing him that he's more than that, but it's also possible he worked hard, got noticed for his academic talents, was picked for the program and did well because he always had this in him. Understanding that throughout this he's an orphan who can easily be manipulated by the chance to be part of something and do good in the world.

 

I'd like this to go even a step further- that Pastor Tim thinks Paige is genuinely disturbed and that's part of his motivation for trying to get her parents in.

 

 

But what she's ever done that was disturbed? What she's telling him is crazy, but she's also responding to it as if it's crazy. If he's really trying to figure out if she's nuts his questions didn't really show it.

 

If it were me, I'd call and let them deal with it. I'd certainly not be thinking "before I get trained professionals involved, I better investigate these scary people myself to get more proof. Where are my stakeout clothes?"

 

 

That's what it seems like to me, that there's just no good reason for him to be doing his own investigation if he thinks it's true. But I can believe that he's doing it for a bad reason, that he just really doesn't get it despite knowing about the Cold War. He's built up a lot of opinions of the Jennings for a while and I could believe that he'd find this kind of tantalizing. And he's got Paige in it too. It's really hilarious when you think about it. The guy is sending a 15 year old in to try to SPY on KGB SPIES.

 

It almost only makes sense if he doesn't believe her, but it really doesn't seem like it's going that way. He's just handling this the same way he handled the baptism and the confrontation: work out a little conspiracy with Paige and then ambush her parents and see how that goes.

Edited March 21, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Dowel Jones]

I'd like this to go even a step further- that Pastor Tim thinks Paige is genuinely disturbed and that's part of his motivation for trying to get her parents in.

 

 

"So, Philip, Elizabeth, I think we need to talk about Paige.  She's showing some strange tendencies I think you should know about.  She's even been telling me all kinds of wild tales about how you're not really Americans!  LIke you're some kind of spies for another country! Heh.  Heh."  

 

Uncomfortable silence.....