Sleepy Hollow in the Media

[shanndee]

Yeah. Riiiiiiiight. (re: Ausiello).

 

If this is "better" than I really will start to permanently wean myself from this show. I will check the promos to see if Jenny and Frank have decent screen time and watch those live. The rest I will let sit on my dvr until I'm in the mood to deal with them. I'm quite confident that skipping them entirely will not cause me a nanosecond of confusion regarding the "plot".  Oh, you mean I missed 6 episodes of save Katrina? How will I possibly catch up? /sarcasm.

[blixie]

I'm kinda of surprised by Ausiello's tweet, he's not typically shy about calling out crappy turns in the writing of storylines, his bread and butter is/was being the voice of "fandom" to an extent. Odd that he'd chose to align himself not just against fandom but against the balance of the critical community But then maybe that's his ish, he's not respected at all as a "critic", so being contrary is some kind of win. I also think it's funny he went with the ratings doens't equal quality argument because I agree, shitty shows get great ratings and great shows get shitty ratings, but almost none of the critical pieces dwelled on the ratings dive, they were all speaking to a perceived shift away from what made it fun and entertaining, and decidedly strange shift toward what much of the audience actively disliked.

 

 

Can we make him showrunner? (he is the creator of SH (idea was his), along with Orci and Kurtzman).

 

Yeah it's unfortunate that he didn't have the experience and clout to lock down Show Runner status, it's very unusual in the Golden Era of auteur like TV writer/creator/showrunners. I have tried to play devil's advocate for the writers, because it's true I don't think TPTB should bend to the wildly erratic whims of fandom, and they have a story they want to tell, and should tell that story, but it's commercial network television, so GMAFB. You sell toothpaste assholes, and while you're entitled to tell whatever story you want, I don't have to watch it.  And as it stands I STILL haven't been able to work up the fortitude to watch the last two episodes.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Just like Scott Foley on Scandal, Katrina is the "poochie" of the SH universe.

[Sepia]

 

Quote

    Phillip Iscove retweeted

    Marisa Roffman @marisaroffman  ·  7h 7 hours ago

    This Monday's episode of #SleepyHollow is my favorite of the season so far. Nicole Beharie and Lyndie Greenwood are so, so good.

 

Can we make him showrunner? (he is the creator of SH (idea was his), along with Orci and Kurtzman).

 

I don't know, I'm still suspicious of all this being just damage control on their part.

[fantique]

Sure, tell your story that you were intending to tell.  But when you include constant references to how smart, powerful and brilliant Katrina is (without showing any evidence of it) when you have Abbie (who doesn't even know Katrina) propping her up ("she's a redhead, she's a witch...") ,when you have Ichabod being oddly dismissive of Abbie's valid concerns while making cow's eyes at his wife, and when you have Ichabod acting avuncular and telling (strong, capable) Abbie to protect his (wilting, feminine) wife, then you can't help but feel that some of what is playing out on the screen is not just 'telling the story.'  It feels like making a point. 

They were making a point. They wanted to avoid setting Ichabbie up as a romantic pairing. That doesn't necessarily mean that the particular point was meant to hurt viewers. That would be dumb. They just didn't think that everyone would be so against seeing the Cranes' love. They thought they could sell it. IMO, I get that shippers are often disappointed when the show they are watching doesn't want to acknowledge the pairing they like but saying that the writers have it out for them is a bit extreme. I think they didn't want to come off as teases, by playing into the chemistry but then have him waxing poetry about his love Katrina.

 

I think those writers are more clueless than carrying some agenda against Abbie/Nicole, they just don't realise our perspective: It feels like they are sticking their head in the sand and don't realise that their bread and butter is the partnership. Keep in mind that they had to restructure their second season because Abbie had to be rescued from Purgatory in the premiere. Ironically, I think that if she had been in Purgatory until say episode 6, they would have been forced to put as much of an emotional emphasis with more character moments for her by now because they wouldn't be crazy enough to not split the time evenly between Ichabod and Abbie. I think they're like "what are they talking about? Abbie is here with as much screentime as ever!" when we are talking about doing narrative justice to her character not how many time her face.

 

Now do I think Mark Goffman likes Katrina/Katia? Yes and that's why he's trying to overcompensate for the flaws of the character by creating opportunities. Unfortunately, they keep failing. What I don't think is that he hates Abbie or Nicole. Same for Albert Kim and, if his tweets before Deliverance mean anything, he had a lot of comments on Abbie moments he liked and was complimentary about Nicole's acting. So while they like Katrina, that doesn't mean they hate Abbie. They're just really not seeing clearly because Katrina is the zit on the forehead of the show and they are obsessed with making it go away without realising they are going to create a scar. Because from an objective standpoint, a Katrina fan should be pissed that they are doing this to her character. Really? Demon-baby incubator, baby-obsessed, delusional and incompetent at magic?

 

I should feel sorry for them because they tried, it didn't succeed and they feel like the internet hates them but I am just exasperated at their behaviour and response to valid criticism. They seem clueless when writing women as women. Abbie worked because the character was a blank canvas with generic circumstances that would inform the plot and they just cast whoever they thought was best for the role. So there wasn't any of those weird set ups shows sometimes have when they have a strong female co-lead. They didn't make her cold or bossy and she's not in a position of high authority in the precinct. They introduced her someone who is still in need of a mentor/father figure and Crane, appearing when Corbin died, was supposed to be her mentor in the supernatural business. Jenny was introduced as Sarah Connor wannabe and Lyndie elevated it. Katrina is literally what every sci-fi/fantasy story has for "the enigmatic and powerful" witch that has been imprisoned because of the threat she presented and while I don't mind her acting when she's not breathy-talking, she did not elevate it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

fantique, you win all of the awards for this ^^. ALL the awards....

 

I think they didn't want to come off as teases, by playing into the chemistry but then have him waxing poetry about his love Katrina.

 

I'm going to disagree with this, only because that's exactly what the show is doing. Teasing Ichabbie, then having him wax poetic. Actions speak louder than words, and Crane's actions with Abbie have shown an amazing amount of chemistry, than Ichabod spouting his flowery language while at the same time sitting there stiff as a board next to the wife. It's something I got annoyed with last year and this - like the yoga scene trying to play it as sex (I thought torture, some thought hot and heavy sex), or the car driving scene, or the hugs or the looks or wiping of foam from mouth and everything. They put these little scenes in to appease Ichabbie, then try to tell us Ickatrina matters. IF the roles were reversed - if Katia Winter played Abbie, and Nicole Beharie played Katrina, THEN I would totally get the epic romance. Because you could see it, can see the chemistry. But the way it is now - the exquisite pairing of the Crane's falls dead on the floor. There is nothing there at all.

 

They're just really not seeing clearly because Katrina is the zit on the forehead of the show and they are obsessed with making it go away without realising they are going to create a scar.

 

*DIES* This is the best comment ever. Tweet this to the show runners, fantique. SOMEONE tweet this to them please!!!!

 

Because from an objective standpoint, a Katrina fan should be pissed that they are doing this to her character. Really? Demon-baby incubator, baby-obsessed, delusional and incompetent at magic?

 

And here is the fundamental difference between the two ships and very telling of the mentalities of people. I ship Ichabbie, but last year I was hoping for shady/evil Katrina, because that would have been a really cool story to tell, and Katia Winter would've had a fun time playing that character. How cool would it have been for Katrina to be doing all sorts of crazy-ass magic, all dark and creepy-like.

 

Regardless of my shipper status, *I* can totally see how the character of Katrina has totally been given the short shaft, has been written poorly and turned into a veritable sea of female TV tropes. I'm appalled at the demon pregnancies, her being shown as weak, being stupid, being only an object passed around etc. I can see this, and Ichabbie shippers see this and understand the poor treatment of the character. However, the pro-Katrina group think this is perfectly FINE. They think that it's all the journey of true love, that Henry can be redeemed, that she isn't being marginalized, and that the demon pregnancy is nothing to be concerned about.

 

THAT to me is completely telling. The writers that are pushing this Katrina/Henry story think the same way as those Ichkatrina shippers. And it is very scary how these people think. The lies that Katrina told are easily dismissed (like in the show), and her shady behaviour is perfectly fine, because she loves Ichabod. You tell me how you would feel if your wife/husband lied about some significant stuff you and you found out?

 

In their view, she is apparently an effective spy who had provided a lot of info. The fact that she is weak is completely overlooked, and her fainting is simply because she is a powerful witch who has over-exerted herself. It's quite a scary mentality, to be honest. And apparently the couple has tons of chemistry. *sideeye

 

Oh, and Abbie is high and mighty for daring to voice her opinion against Henry. /majorsideeye.

[fantique]

HalcyonDays, I am still not over her sending the freaking raven with the 18th century version of a text. "Hey babe. Everything is great over here :)"

 

Regardless of my shipper status, *I* can totally see how the character of Katrina has totally been given the short shaft, has been written poorly and turned into a veritable sea of female TV tropes. I'm appalled at the demon pregnancies, her being shown as weak, being stupid, being only an object passed around etc. I can see this, and Ichabbie shippers see this and understand the poor treatment of the character. However, the pro-Katrina group think this is perfectly FINE. They think that it's all the journey of true love, that Henry can be redeemed, that she isn't being marginalized, and that the demon pregnancy is nothing to be concerned about.

My only response to that is I.Can't.Even... I really want to know what Katrina fans like about her. I only know of one of them (he's not so much as a fan as he is okay with her) and basically he likes her presence just because he doesn't want romantic Ichabbie, which means that it's not really Katrina he likes. I want to know what clicked for people with her because she's just annoying. At least last season there was suspicion and possibilities but now it's just that she's both dishonest and stupid. I need to rationalise this because I can't deal with how stupidly this has been handled.

[TV Juriste]

Or how internet media influences televison today...Way back when, the only media to supplement one's television show were magazines, Johnny Carson/Letterman et all late night talk shows and maybe the radio. Now we've got twitter hashtags, twitter and tumblr campaigns, gifs of everything rewriting intentions, and the writers and show creators accessible via a mere tweet. It's such a different landscape now. The show is more open to criticism, praise and the fandom in general.

 

In this thread, I was already commenting earlier on how this whole kerfuffle over season 2 SH could be a seminar on how internet media can impact television -  because it really can. The voices are loud and clear - are the SH writing masses willing to listen?

I saw your earlier comment. I totally agree. Ok, forgive me, but seeing your line about "loud and clear" reminded me of an SNL sketch about what can happen if writers go too far responding to fans' critiques. http://www.tvjuriste.com/tv-writers-response-to-fan-activism/. This is exactly the chuckle I needed after a week of critiques upon critiques about Sleepy Hollow. (And, I've seen parts of Monday's episode, Mama, it's a good one, but there aren't too many light funny moments.). Sleepy Hollow fans deserve a little laugh.

Edited November 18, 2014 by TV Juriste

[HalcyonDays]

HalcyonDays, I am still not over her sending the freaking raven with the 18th century version of a text. "Hey babe. Everything is great over here :)"

 

My only response to that is I.Can't.Even... I really want to know what Katrina fans like about her. I only know of one of them (he's not so much as a fan as he is okay with her) and basically he likes her presence just because he doesn't want romantic Ichabbie, which means that it's not really Katrina he likes. I want to know what clicked for people with her because she's just annoying. At least last season there was suspicion and possibilities but now it's just that she's both dishonest and stupid. I need to rationalise this because I can't deal with how stupidly this has been handled.

 

Oh, they are quite interesting in their mentality. Even if I didn't ship Ichabbie, I can completely understand how Katrina's character is being underminded, loses her agency, is mistreated. I want to see a kick-ass witch. Instead, I get a weak-ass faint.

Here is a subset of comments I have read about Katrina (not here):

 

That's what makes it so infuriating, though. That Ichabod's WIFE should be relegated to "the competition." When canon, the producers, the writers and the actors have all made it clear that Katrina and her husband are soul-mates, true love, and have done their best to discourage any lines of shipping elsewhere.

And that Katia's character is so reviled by a small faction of fans who simply want her out of the way so that what is, right now, a crack ship can happen? Is equally infuriating.

 

Small faction? Really dude? (underlining mine) Soul-mates? yeah, I can totally see that Katrina is the soul mate, not Abbie (platonic or otherwise). It's clear as mud.

 

Of all the painful and difficult things Katrina has had to do over the years, I'm betting this was near the top of the list. Knowing the pain this would cause Ichabod.

 

Yes, and I am sure it was painful for her to LIE to her husband over and over and over again, to assist in killing off Mary Wells and LIE to your husband about it, and not show any remorse AND never reveal anything once he was awake again, unless it was the right timing. Oh, I bet the lying was painful - painful to hide. *eyeroll*

Her husband rises up 200+ years in the future and has a moderate amount of issue acclimating to the modern era. HE is the one who convinces Abbie of the supernatural and HE is the one who accepts the crazy immediately. But the wife cannot trust the husband with the secret that she is a witch? Please.

 

I can't think of a moment when she has directly lied to ichabod. When he asked for the truth, no matter the circumstances she has given it to him.

 

Um, everytime time he appeared in Purgatory? Their entire marriage in the 18th century? And giving him the truth...no, she turned on the tears, tried to be weak and cried her way out of confessing the truth every fucking time. "There's no time. This is not the place. Blah blah."

 

I do think Ichabod holds Katrina on a very high pedestal which to an outsiders perspective is not ideal. No one is perfect. With every new information learned, Katrina accepts it with heartbreaking resolve.

 

Oh dear god...seriously. Heartbreaking resolve???

 

The above quotes, my friends, are how Ichatrina shippers think. Also, to all Arrow fans, many of these posters love Laurel Lance on Arrow. Make of that what you will.

[fantique]

The above quotes, my friends, are how Ichatrina shippers think. Also, to all Arrow fans, many of these posters love Laurel Lance on Arrow. Make of that what you will.

Oh ok, that puts things into perspective very well for me. Wow. At least it almost makes me feel better because I don't even want them to like Abbie as it would only happen once she is trying super hard to be the love interest while being bitchy, rude to anyone who "doesn't matter" (also still not over Katrina saying the only perspective that matters is her because it's her son) and becomes incompetent with loose moral standards complete with the delusion of being the centre of the world.

[DeLurker]

HalcyonDays - wow! Interesting that some folk can see the same eps and come away with such a radically different interpretation of the same show. Of course, I am sure the Katrina distaste sincerely befuddles them too.

Thanks for providing that subset of views - risking permanent Ocular Spasms* and probably a bit of your sanity.

*caused by excessive eye rolling. A/K/A "your face will freeze like that" as warned by mothers everywhere.

[HalcyonDays]

Looks like TPTB got Orlando to shill the company line.

 

Orlando Jones promises exciting things ahead for his 'Sleepy Hollow' character

 

I don't believe it, solely because last year, OJ would tweet stuff about the exciting stuff happening in the latter part of the season, etc. After the whole #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter hashtag/Deliverance Kurfuffle, he acknowledged the concerns of the fans, but never once tweeted about the "exciting things" that are coming. All he said was be patient. He of all people would have rambled on about the "good stuff" happening. Also, he's reiterating the awesomeness of the redemption storyline and Katrina and all of that. He is much more muted lately. And I'm cynical.

 

ETA: OJ interview in the Toronto Star.

 

Thought this was...interesting...

 

Q: So for viewers who are still trying to catch on, what’s the show really about?

 

A: Ultimately, absolutely it’s a love story. It’s about unrequited love. Abbie (Nicole Beharie) and Ichabod are the two witnesses that are spoken of in the Book of Revelations and the war of good and evil that began 250 years ago. And now the war has remerged in Sleepy Hollow. They totally play as romantic leads. They’re fighting for each other. But he just happens to be married to a witch. That’s the real story. The rest of it is the stuff we’re trying to sell you to try and get you to watch it.

[Carrie Ann]

Well, on his Tumblr, Orlando continues to not give a single eff. In case he edits, which I doubt he would, but just in case--here are the relevant/shady tags:

 

And now it's time for, Tumblr's favorite new gameshow, Multiple Choice Tags, 1st Question --, In the upper right hand panel, is Mrs. BAMF's emotional expression saying, A. Please don't make me do a sister love triangle with Miracle Whip. If I can't be with Frank at least give me Big Ash., B. SO. MUCH. FEELS. for the Cranes and the struggles they're facing. I am HERE for Downtown Hollow.

[blixie]

 

I don't believe it, solely because last year, OJ would tweet stuff about the exciting stuff happening in the latter part of the season, etc. After the whole #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter hashtag/Deliverance Kurfuffle, he acknowledged the concerns of the fans, but never once tweeted about the "exciting things" that are coming.

 

Give that the Arrow team were able to successfully conceal a HUGELY unpopular plot twist, I'm not going to dismiss him entirely, and I get that he still probably loves this job, but at the end of the day they've alienated a huge part of the fanbase and they won't be around for whenever these tools get around to telling Irving's exciting stuff!

 

Tangent: I had never heard that bit about Hannibal re-writing the first season because it wasn't "working", but again that show has the benefit of being an auteur show Fuller is the Creator/writer/exec producer and show runner. 

[topanga]

Not only the Abbie/Nicole fans, and now many critics, but even Facebook.  I tend to stay away from Facebook in SH fandom because it was always very pro-Katrina.  But boy have the tables turned there too.

 

And here is another interview with Nicole.  Interesting, this one has her sounding more like some fans than the insider.  But she still manages to be professional.  I love her interviews.  Be sure to watch the sneak peek at the end of the article.

 

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Sleepy-Hollow-Spoilers-Nicole-Beharie-1089272.aspx

 

Great Interview. Her response to this question reads like a summary of the entire 2nd season:

Will Abbie's and Ichabod's different views on how to proceed create a lot of conflict between them?

Beharie: You start to see it bubbling. Abbie's whole fighting spirit that was a big part of last season has sort of been squashed a little bit because she's trying to keep the group together. She's a lot less vocal and a lot less rebellious than she was. But I have a feeling that Ichabod's constant choices, decision to pick his family, could actually put a serious divide between the group as a whole. Because they're not focused, they're not moving forward in a lot of ways. And I think that the team would be a lot stronger if everyone could unite and be on the same page. I think in the upcoming episodes you see her sort it out and actually meet some other people whom she finds really inspiring — and potentially dangerous.

 

I will, however, miss seeing 

the Ichabbie moments. They remain my favorite part of the show.

Edited November 17, 2014 by topanga

[Lastwaltz]

IMO the fact that Katrina and Ichabod have zero chemistry is the whole point. They're clinging to the past. They aren't in love anymore. They love the idea of each other. The characters need time to figure that out. They've hardly been in one another's presence since the show started. There's been no time for them to come to terms with that. Ichabod clearly *know* that's the case, but he's not willing to admit it. 

 

I agree with everything here -- and for what it's worth,  I'm along for the ride and betting the investment will be well worth it in the end. 

[phoenics]

HalcyonDays, I am still not over her sending the freaking raven with the 18th century version of a text. "Hey babe. Everything is great over here :)"

 

My only response to that is I.Can't.Even... I really want to know what Katrina fans like about her. I only know of one of them (he's not so much as a fan as he is okay with her) and basically he likes her presence just because he doesn't want romantic Ichabbie, which means that it's not really Katrina he likes. I want to know what clicked for people with her because she's just annoying. At least last season there was suspicion and possibilities but now it's just that she's both dishonest and stupid. I need to rationalise this because I can't deal with how stupidly this has been handled.

This is what happens when a character merely becomes a fanservice vessel for a very small minority of fans. Those fans see themselves as Katrina - thus it doesn't matter what she does or how she lies or how the character is treated - even if it's like some warped heroine in a harlequin romance novel from 30 years ago - they are fine with it, because she's not supposed to be a real character. She's literally a fanservice vessel.

Just like she is a plot vessel for the writers.

Plus - when the only purpose fans have for the character is to keep Ichabbie apart, then they don't care what happens to her, what she does, how she lies, how little character development there is or how many sexist tropes the character inhabits. None of that matters as long as she does the job of keeping the hated couple apart (for them).  It's all about making sure Ichabbie doesn't happen.

 

I think that's the primary reason the writers decided not to kill Katrina off.   They were afraid a majority of fans needed the Katrina-barrier-against-Ichabbie in order to feel comfortable watching the show.  Turns out they were WRONG.

This happened for decades on The Bold & The Beautiful with Brooke and Taylor. Taylor was kept a "saint" and never held accountable for her actions all to keep Bridge (Brooke and Ridge) apart. Most of her fans were simply Brooke-haters. That's why the show gained in ratings when they killed her off - the haters still stuck around to hate on Brooke and more Brooke/Bridge fans came BACK to the show because they hoped for better balance in the storytelling.

[phoenics]

ETA: OJ interview in the Toronto Star.

 

Thought this was...interesting...

Q: So for viewers who are still trying to catch on, what’s the show really about?

A: Ultimately, absolutely it’s a love story. It’s about unrequited love. Abbie (Nicole Beharie) and Ichabod are the two witnesses that are spoken of in the Book of Revelations and the war of good and evil that began 250 years ago. And now the war has remerged in Sleepy Hollow. They totally play as romantic leads. They’re fighting for each other. But he just happens to be married to a witch. That’s the real story. The rest of it is the stuff we’re trying to sell you to try and get you to watch it.

That is extremely interesting... I wonder which interview was given LAST? Because the first one has an earlier published date - the second one is published a day after the first one. I wonder if the first interview he tried to say what was in the 2nd interview, but they twisted it a bit? That quote of his is supremely interesting - it literally calls Sleepy Hollow a show about the unrequited love of Ichabbie (due to someone Ichabod just happens to be married to) - and apparently that's just about the 2nd season.

Prior to Deliverance+Heartless I would have agreed - but I'm surprised OJ was allowed to spell it out like that. I think that interview happened very quickly after the ratings and abbie twitter thing and is likely damage control...

I'm going to read the other article (the first one you posted) and then the 2nd and see what I think of that...

If the show continues to press the angle OJ mentioned above - they are painting themselves into a corner. This is NOT Scandal - no one wants an affair.

[scarletregina]

This happened for decades on The Bold & The Beautiful with Brooke and Taylor. Taylor was kept a "saint" and never held accountable for her actions all to keep Bridge (Brooke and Ridge) apart. Most of her fans were simply Brooke-haters. That's why the show gained in ratings when they killed her off - the haters still stuck around to hate on Brooke and more Brooke/Bridge fans came BACK to the show because they hoped for better balance in the storytelling.

 

Off-topic: I was totally Team Taylor, until they brought her back to life. That was so dumb.

 

On-topic: The only thing I like about Katrina is that she's a redhead. I really want her to go full-on evil and then have Abbie or Ichabod kill her in this season's finale. But that probably won't happen.

[phoenics]

Off-topic: I was totally Team Taylor, until they brought her back to life. That was so dumb.

Yeah - that was a hot mess. I'll never forget when Brooke opened the door and got an eye-full of plastic surgery gone wrong, lol. Shame what Hunter did to herself - she was so pretty before!

 

On-topic: The only thing I like about Katrina is that she's a redhead. I really want her to go full-on evil and then have Abbie or Ichabod kill her in this season's finale. But that probably won't happen.

IF she dies - she'll die a saintly death... Even if she goes evil, she'll be redeemed in the end before death so Ichabod can uphold her as a saint and annoy us all.

I just had another thought after seeing the "redemption" stuff Orlando mentioned (and I believe another poster touched on this elsewhere too) ... I think that another thing that bothers me about this storyline is the unfairness of it all. If you look at what Abbie and her family have sacrificed to this war, it's a lot:

Grace

Abbie's mother

Jenny and her issues

Abbie's horrible childhood (Jenny's too)

Corbin

Andy

Irving and his family

If you look at what Ichabod and Katrina have lost it's ... being together and having their son? But it's their being together that created the Horseman of Death. It's their being together that created the Horseman of War.

Grace was killed by their son. And they want to talk about redemption? Um, NOPE.

I wonder if the writers even thought about this or no? Because it feels like from a Witness perspective, the ONLY ones sacrificing come from Abbie's side of the witness bond. Ichabod is determined to have it all - even after being a major cause of half of the Apocalypse.

Not fair.

Edited November 17, 2014 by phoenics

[DearEvette]

On-topic: The only thing I like about Katrina is that she's a redhead. I really want her to go full-on evil and then have Abbie or Ichabod kill her in this season's finale. But that probably won't happen.

 

Given the fun twist at the end of S1 of Henry being War, I can't be too mad at what transpired.  But I still think it would have been great had Katrina been the Horseman of War given that (s)he is supposed to ride a red horse.  It could have been visually striking to have her riding a horse that exactly matched her hair.

Edited November 17, 2014 by DearEvette

[DeLurker]

On-topic: The only thing I like about Katrina is that she's a redhead.

She, rather they, even ruin that. Her hair color seems to fluctuate from scene to scene.

[RiddleyWalker]

Given the fun twist at the end of S1 of Henry being War, I can't be too mad at what transpired.  But I still think it would have been great had Katrina been the Horseman of War given that (s)he is supposed to ride a red horse.  It could have been visually striking to have her riding a horse that exactly matched her hair.

See my post in the "spoilers" section…  ;)

Edited November 18, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[phoenics]

Has this interview with Nicole been posted yet?

http://tvline.com/2014/11/17/sleepy-hollow-season-2-preview-video-nicole-beharie-abbie-mother/
 

TVLINE | I loved so much the scene in the last episode where you can tell Abbie’s getting so fed up with Katrina, and then it just blows and they have that “I was here first” argument.
Yeah, but that was still played under, I think.
TVLINE | Really?
Yeah. I think if the world’s coming to an end and your partner is choosing his family over the entire planet and the future of the world, there is definitely room for a little bit more heat. I think she’s definitely holding back. Again, like I was saying earlier, there could be a payoff there. I think things are bubbling.

[Fable]

These idiot writers. That's why they believe that Katrina is someone who should be put front and centre, to the detriment to every other character on the show, AND why they subsequently destroyed and/or sidelined every other character on this show (including Ichabod). Katrina/Katia is Goffman's and Albert Kim's muse (IMO), and the direction of the show clearly shows that. Their twitter responses totally indicate how out of touch with the fan base and what made the show work. *sigh*

 

I don't see that as true.   She hasn't sidelined anyone.   Katrina has had all of two centric episodes, both of which were boring as hell and left me believing, Ichabod and Katrina had grown apart.  She is a regular and she deserves her fair share of story telling.  Two episodes hardly qualify her as the focus of the show!.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Fable

[phoenics]

Two episodes that tanked the ratings.

 

I don't even think "Mama" can pull them out of the nosedive they are in - a lot of fans have left and aren't coming back.

 

And "she deserves her fair share of storytelling" --> nope.  Not if ratings don't support it.  And they don't.  Honestly based on the ratings, she deserves to be killed off.

 

I have no more patience for that character.  The focus on her storyline and all of the contortions the writers have to send the other characters through to prop her up is maddening - and killing the show.

 

As you said, her episodes are boring.

[BigEasygirl]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic because...these writers.  But anyway, what if they purposely showcased how much the Mills have suffered and lost because when Crane gets his turn he's going to lose big too?

 

I gotta hope this is going to happen for several reasons which we've already talked about in another thread.  But at least one is because I want to like Ichabod again.  He's just insufferable right now, and I can't stand him.  And that just hurts me so much.  So I need him brought down low so he can regain some much needed humility and the other endearing qualities that made me an Ichabod fan.  I can't even think about pairings when I don't like a character.  What made Ichabbie, whether platonic or romantic, so wonderful to watch was that I loved both characters.  The chemistry between the two, while important and breathtaking, was secondary to me.  And now the show has disrupted that.  Everything feels off and insincere especially after successive episodes shoehorning either Katrina or Hawley in between Abbie and Ichabod in addition to having Ichabod disrespect and take Abbie for granted.

 

Well, I'm getting off the point of my comment.  lol  I just hope the show is actually going somewhere that makes sense in terms of what they seem to have set up.  The person who needs redemption in my eyes is neither Henry nor Headless.  It's Ichabod.

[fantique]

Orlando agrees with me about the Supernatural of it all.

https://twitter.com/TheOrlandoJones/status/534578074893819904

[Yolapukka]

 

When canon, the producers, the writers and the actors have all made it clear that Katrina and her husband are soul-mates,

 

 

Canon? what "canon"? the Washington Irving story in which schoolteacher Ichabod is an overambitious joke of a social climber when he tries to woo a pretty heiress? The only way they've conformed to that canon is some character's names and the setting of Sleepy Hollow and ...... oh yeah, Ichabod is "lean and lanky". If the reference was to the internal canon of the show, well that is kind of flexible as compared to the source, hence having Ichabod and Katrina be a married couple at all.  

[cynic]

There was a Sleepy Hollow promo during Gotham that struck me. It was one of those generic, quick shots of the main characters and titles kind of things. The first shot was Ichabod and Abbie in the foreground with Katrina and Irving flanking then in the background like the first season promos. The second shot was a closeup of Ichabod and Abbie, but with Ichabod shown more prominently and Abbie behind him. The third was a solo shot of Katrina. It ended with a shot of Ichabod and Abbie. I could be wrong, but I don't remember Katrina featured in this type of promo last season. I felt like she'd been inserted, perhaps as a reflection of her increased prominence in the show itself. I kinda felt like Nicole Beharie got shortchanged by it.

[DearEvette]

Oooh, The shade, the shade of it all....

 

[phoenics]

Hahaha! Dayum!

Abbie would so be dead, lol.

cynic - I saw that promo too and it bothered me. If the show thinks shoving Katrina in there will woo fans they are wrong.

And Reese - I completely agree with you and share your disappointment with Ichabod. I haven't liked him for about 3 eppies now. And even before that I was side eying him because of leaving Abbie in Purgatory. I need to see him brought low. And there is only one thing that will accomplish that.

I don't think it will happen in the mid-season finale. But the writers better make it happen by the end of S3 and write better stories.

Edited November 18, 2014 by phoenics

[DeLurker]

OMFG

And I don't use chat speak ever.

Hilarious, ballsy and Orlando and Nicole forever have my love.

Just can't use his initials - they always bring to mind another famous OJ. Just can't.

[savinggrace]

I'm confused. I thought there were 2 more episodes before the winter break. Is the next episode a two-parter?

[HalcyonDays]

Oh Orlando, the shade you bring gives me life! God I love that man. He and Beharie know...they so know what is wrong with the show....

 

I'm confused. I thought there were 2 more episodes before the winter break. Is the next episode a two-parter?

 

I think it is a two-parter. Episode 2.10 (Magnum Opus) airs next week. The week after - Dec 1st - 2.11 The Akeda airs, then it's the mid-season break. SH is supposed to come back January 5th, 2015.

[fantique]

SleepyCast for Mama. I like the insight I am getting.

http://www.nerdist.com/2014/11/sleepycast13/

[marceline]

There's a new SH magazine. I can't help but think that this cover was designed by people who just. don't. get. it.

 

[netlyon2]

^^

So, the main character is that guy in the middle, played by someone named John Noble?  Is this Nicole Beharie one of the wimmenz standing behind the main dude, who is clearly the main character because he's front and center?

*sigh*

[BigEasygirl]

I hate that damn cover.  It exemplifies exactly what's wrong with this show.   Ichabod is front and center with Abby off to the side and behind him in the sidekick position.  While Katrina (who is set a little further back than Abbie) completes a three person triangle with Crane.  She's also in front of Irving who, along with Jenny, is in the far back and off the side, i.e, sidelined.  Jenry is disingenuously (considering how often he's on) in the back too but centered off to the side of Crane. 

 

This show better get it together. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by Reese

[Grammaeryn]

A tiny bit of glee that Lyndie favorited a tweet of mine.! I wrote " @NikkiBeharie @LyndieGreenwood Bravo ladies! Darn allergy season..." I know, it's just a click on a screen to favorite but it made me smile.

[catrox14]

Sigh. I am so disappointed with the complete 180 on what made this show so wonderful last season. I just don't get it.

[RiddleyWalker]

Sigh. I am so disappointed with the complete 180 on what made this show so wonderful last season. I just don't get it.

I'm just curious… Do you think the latest episode or anything recently makes you optimistic that the show might be changing its course?

Edited November 19, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[HalcyonDays]

Philip Iscove retweeting the PTV recap for "Mama"...

 

Phillip Iscove retweeted
Mo Ryan @moryan  ·  Nov 17

Mills sisters, Frank, ghost mom--that's mo' like it #SleepyHollow. Btw my new fave word is hex-position http://previously.tv/sleepy-hollow/not-great-mom/

 

I wonder if they bothered to read through the threads here...If so, hey writers, read our criticisms and take our advice. We're the ones that give you the ratings.
 

[DeLurker]

 

I'm just curious… Do you think the latest episode or anything recently makes you optimistic that he show might be changing its course?

I sincerely hope so.  I've been wondering if I should stop watching after Mama or maybe the next so that I end my viewing in a positive space. 

 

I know I won't because I desperately want to believe the crumbs of hope the other posters come up with (explaining how the seemingly craptastic nonsense so far of S2 has to be intentional and part of a larger arc where things will come together).  I imagine them typing up these theories that, if done correctly, could pull S2 out of the can (because I think we're in further than just a sophmore slump) with crossed fingers saying "please, please, please, please...".

 

Otherwise, Goffman and co are my Moloch.

[marceline]

I'm just curious… Do you think the latest episode or anything recently makes you optimistic that he show might be changing its course?

 

You didn't direct this to me but I'm going to jump in here. I enjoyed the episode but I have no illusions about this show getting better until there is a change in writers. These writers clearly don't share the vision of the show we had in S1 and you can't fake vision, especially in sci-fi. Even last night's episode, while good, didn't feel like the same show I fell in love with last season. It felt like a bone thrown to those of us struggling to hang on. That magazine cover is a red light that the people running this show don't/can't/won't acknowledge what really made SH work.

Edited November 19, 2014 by marceline

[BigEasygirl]

Yeah, that cover sucks but does represent the showrunners' mindsets.  And Iscove--who I actually like--pimping it on twitter after all the complaints about Abbie being made into a sidekick, Irving and Jenny sidelined with Katrina basically being made into a co-lead just makes me shake my head.  If TPTB had any self-awareness (or common sense) their message would have been re: the SH Mag cover, "Nevermind."

[cynic]

I'm just curious… Do you think the latest episode or anything recently makes you optimistic that the show might be changing its course?

This wasn't directed at me either, but I'll bite too. I want to be hopeful, but I'm not holding my breath. It really felt like Mama was a bone, a one-off spotlighting a sidekick or secondary character. Even the media was treating it that way. Besides, I think it's too late for a course correction. I think the runners are too invested in their storylines and will let them play out, except for possibly minor tweaking. If any major changes do come about from the plummeting ratings or criticism, they will probably happen next year.

[HalcyonDays]

This wasn't directed at me either, but I'll bite too. I want to be hopeful, but I'm not holding my breath. It really felt like Mama was a bone, a one-off spotlighting a sidekick or secondary character. Even the media was treating it that way. Besides, I think it's too late for a course correction. I think the runners are too invested in their storylines and will let them play out, except for possibly minor tweaking. If any major changes do come about from the plummeting ratings or criticism, they will probably happen next year.

 

I completely agree, especially with the dismissive attitude the writers have shown.

 

Today was the first day of filming episode 15. They can't really make major changes now, only minor. They are too far into it. Irony, considering last year they were way behind. Maybe the two episode mid-season finale will give us a bit of a spark, just like it only took two episodes to really disappoint/hurt the fandom.

[DeLurker]

Now I've got the sads.

[catrox14]

Well, to answer the question, I have not watched the last episode...that is how disappointed I am.  But I plan to catch up this weekend so I'll come back and let you know if I have a change of heart.