Pretty Little Liars in the Media

[SparedTurkey]

Why does this show get a pass because it has, until this season, shown a lesbian character positively. That doesn't give it a free-for-all in terms of any other group on the LGBTIQP banner.

 

I think it is disapointing HeatherHogan/Autostraddle diluted any legitimate negative opinion of this finale of CeCe as A. Though I thought Heather was going to once she deleted her immediate tweet of 'Fuck.This.Shit' though.

 

I will say, Heather is right and Kenneth DiLaurentis is a baddie f this show. That he didn't love or support his son, that was naturally a girl, is awful and tragic. And not to take away from CeCe but he was awful to ALL his kids. That he told Jason to suck it up that he gaslighted him re:Charles (as she then was) and that Ali that she should suck it up that the cops sent to protect her were slut-shaming her is completely AWFUL. Kenneth DiLaurentis is a respresentation of patriarchy-is-bad and the show has (possibly unintentionally) pointed that out a lot and him denying CeCe is a very important and topical point. BUT. The final and the show has showed Kenneth as more protective of baby!Ali which isn't necessarily transphobic. The only part of Kenneth we saw as transphobic came from Jessica DiLaurentis, who not perfect at all but prepared to hide the death of her daughter Ali to protect another daughter - buried alive. All I am saying is Jessica should not be regarded as absolute fact. I find it hard to believe any DiLaurentis' perspective (except maybe Jason). I totally accept Kenneth as transphobic as much as Jessica is a bad narrator.

 

However - I feel that Autostraddle, Heather any and all critics should also focus on the fact that making Charles transgender, and making it a focal point of his pathology re: Ali and the girls, is pandering to a low common denominator, and a transphobic one at that. In this age, the media, in all forms, has not yet accepted transgender people as people and so to codify a villian as such is perpetuating a damaging stereotype that has been around for decades. It has only been in the last 15 years that gay people are not always written as baddies - that is why they got so much support for their portrayal of Emily (and Hanna's supportive reaction, if I remember correctly).

 

I think IMK/PLL finale 6B Supporters would do better to understand the criticisms of CeCe=Charles=A which is NOT 'Ew A=Guy who was really a Girl=Gross' but is 'Really? Is that not an awful stereotype to engage withand does THIS show need to reinforce that gross stereotype? Probably not. But What about the history of Transgender persons in media - are there enough positive representations to counteract it? Clearly not. Should we make our main, pathological villian who has tortured 4/5 16 year old pretty girls for 1/2 years a transgender character in light of that history? - I feel like anyone who reads would just say fuck NO. And that should be the approach. No critic is saying transgender people are 100% pure - obviously some are assholes, some not. But when the media portrayal is so often portraying the asshole/psychopath/baddie - then an otherwise gay/lesbian positive show doesn't get an automatic pass.

 

This show would be better of, in this one instance, of listening to the criticisms rather than 'explaining' them away as just transphobic. To excuse it as being something the audience just 'doesn't quite get e.g. like Ali/Toby flashback wasthem at three years old' all i can say is come ON.

 

I'd love a Troian Bellasario interview right now. She seems to have had sense about the show's problematic issues AND the medias perception of such issues.

[raytch]

Is anyone else really wishing Jacob from TWoP would write a recap/review somewhere?

I really wanna know what he thinks about all this.

[raytch]

Why does this show get a pass because it has, until this season, shown a lesbian character positively. That doesn't give it a free-for-all in terms of any other group on the LGBTIQP banner.

 

I think it is disapointing HeatherHogan/Autostraddle diluted any legitimate negative opinion of this finale of CeCe as A. Though I thought Heather was going to once she deleted her immediate tweet of 'Fuck.This.Shit' though.

 

I will say, Heather is right and Kenneth DiLaurentis is a baddie f this show. That he didn't love or support his son, that was naturally a girl, is awful and tragic. And not to take away from CeCe but he was awful to ALL his kids. That he told Jason to suck it up that he gaslighted him re:Charles (as she then was) and that Ali that she should suck it up that the cops sent to protect her were slut-shaming her is completely AWFUL. Kenneth DiLaurentis is a respresentation of patriarchy-is-bad and the show has (possibly unintentionally) pointed that out a lot and him denying CeCe is a very important and topical point. BUT. The final and the show has showed Kenneth as more protective of baby!Ali which isn't necessarily transphobic. The only part of Kenneth we saw as transphobic came from Jessica DiLaurentis, who not perfect at all but prepared to hide the death of her daughter Ali to protect another daughter - buried alive. All I am saying is Jessica should not be regarded as absolute fact. I find it hard to believe any DiLaurentis' perspective (except maybe Jason). I totally accept Kenneth as transphobic as much as Jessica is a bad narrator.

 

However - I feel that Autostraddle, Heather any and all critics should also focus on the fact that making Charles transgender, and making it a focal point of his pathology re: Ali and the girls, is pandering to a low common denominator, and a transphobic one at that. In this age, the media, in all forms, has not yet accepted transgender people as people and so to codify a villian as such is perpetuating a damaging stereotype that has been around for decades. It has only been in the last 15 years that gay people are not always written as baddies - that is why they got so much support for their portrayal of Emily (and Hanna's supportive reaction, if I remember correctly).

 

I think IMK/PLL finale 6B Supporters would do better to understand the criticisms of CeCe=Charles=A which is NOT 'Ew A=Guy who was really a Girl=Gross' but is 'Really? Is that not an awful stereotype to engage withand does THIS show need to reinforce that gross stereotype? Probably not. But What about the history of Transgender persons in media - are there enough positive representations to counteract it? Clearly not. Should we make our main, pathological villian who has tortured 4/5 16 year old pretty girls for 1/2 years a transgender character in light of that history? - I feel like anyone who reads would just say fuck NO. And that should be the approach. No critic is saying transgender people are 100% pure - obviously some are assholes, some not. But when the media portrayal is so often portraying the asshole/psychopath/baddie - then an otherwise gay/lesbian positive show doesn't get an automatic pass.

 

This show would be better of, in this one instance, of listening to the criticisms rather than 'explaining' them away as just transphobic. To excuse it as being something the audience just 'doesn't quite get e.g. like Ali/Toby flashback wasthem at three years old' all i can say is come ON.

 

I'd love a Troian Bellasario interview right now. She seems to have had sense about the show's problematic issues AND the medias perception of such issues.

 

THIS

 

I feel like the entire Cece/Kenneth thing is unreliable narrator. We only see their sides as they saw it.

ITA about everything you said but mostly that part in bold. As the finale was airing I posted something like are they seriously trying to shame us into sympathizing with A? And after all these interviews / twitter reactions, I still feel the same. I wish Marlene would step up and say "we couldn't tie the story up any better, but I hope you understand what we were trying to do with the story of all these effed up family members. We have a clean slate now and hopefully we'll do better with the next season". 

[mercfan3]

To be fair, I have yet to see anyone have any transphobic reactions to CeCe. Tumblr, Reddit, here, reviews..There tends to be three responses

1. That was really transphobic because of the history of the way the film and tv industry have used trans women.

2. Was it really necessary to have a trans character be A ? And a belief that it was done for shock value.

3. I understand what the writers were trying to do and why they did them and so its not necessarily transphobic, but there are some definite issues with the way the story was told. 

[itainttippithebird]

 

Is anyone else really wishing Jacob from TWoP would write a recap/review somewhere?

I really wanna know what he thinks about all this.

Ask and ye shall receive! But might be disappointed, I'm not sure: http://jacobclifton.tumblr.com/post/126527908915/what-do-you-think-of-the-pll-finale

[Jenniferbug]

YMMV, but I do not miss Jacob's recaps in the slightest. I stopped reading recaps at TWOP entirely because he seemed to recap every show I watched. I'm glad he's actively writing so those who enjoy him can read, but I hope he never recaps for this site.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I see that Jacob is drinking the Kool-Aid of every episode of PLL supposedly being about men trying to control women's bodies too. Disappointing.

[DigitalCount]

There were times back in the day when I thought he slam-dunked some of the imagery and messages present in my favorite shows. And then there were times when I felt like I was reading one of those high school sophomore English papers where everything is symbolic and deep and soulful and tortured by the CRUEL, CRUEL WORLD.

[Sakura12]

Jacob's recaps were like 40 pages of long ramblings. No thanks. 

 

For recappers on TWOP, Omar was my favorite. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[itainttippithebird]

 

I see that Jacob is drinking the Kool-Aid of every episode of PLL supposedly being about men trying to control women's bodies too. Disappointing.

 

Uhhh, "drinking the kool-aid" is a bit much - to imply that anyone who takes a feminist lens to this show is a brainwashed cult victim is super condescending and out of line. Not to mention just....wrong? I mean, like I said elsewhere, pretty much all the regular writers and directors, as well as King herself, HAVE SAID THIS IS A MAJOR THEME OF THE SHOW. Sooooo, I'm not sure how it's some kind of paranoid reading - it's the actual intent of the show.

 

If you don't like queer/feminist television criticism, maybe just stop engaging with it?

Edited August 13, 2015 by itainttippithebird

[mercfan3]

Uhhh, "drinking the kool-aid" is a bit much - to imply that anyone who takes a feminist lens to this show is a brainwashed cult victim is super condescending and out of line. Not to mention just....wrong? I mean, like I said elsewhere, pretty much all the regular writers and directors, as well as King herself, HAVE SAID THIS IS A MAJOR THEME OF THE SHOW. Sooooo, I'm not sure how it's some kind of paranoid reading - it's the actual intent of the show.

 

If you don't like queer/feminist television criticism, maybe just stop engaging with it?

 

Right. It's definitely the major theme of a show. 

 

A show (or book or movie) can have a well developed meaning and theme while simultaneously not being good at details and plot and well..story telling. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Not to mention just....wrong? I mean, like I said elsewhere, pretty much all the regular writers and directors, as well as King herself, HAVE SAID THIS IS A MAJOR THEME OF THE SHOW. Sooooo, I'm not sure how it's some kind of paranoid reading - it's the actual intent of the show.

 

 "A major theme of the show" isn't the same as "every episode is about that". Nothing wrong with a reviewer concentrating on what they find interesting, it's just that often reviewers tend to assume writers are just as interested in exploring those themes, which is not always the case. It leads to things like people being adamant that no way Uber A was going to be anything but a man because that's what the show is totally about apparently.

 

And it annoys me when characters are absolved of guilt because they had it tough, never mind if it's because of the patriarchy oppresses them or because the evil humans just can't accept those cuddly vampires or because the main protagonist's daddy didn't love him enough. Why not like a given character without trying to whitewash them?

 

 

If you don't like queer/feminist television criticism, maybe just stop engaging with it?

 

I don't have problem with queer/feminist television criticism per se, I have read some of Jacob's recaps dozens of times, for instance. I have a problem with reviewers trying to reduce seeing each and every event in the show to the same societal issue. If I happen to come across a reviewer who obsesses about how men have it tough in Rosewood I would roll my eyes at the too.

 

ETA: AfterEllen is basically repeating what Heather Hogan said:

 

 

But isn’t CeCe just another victim of the Rosewood patriarchy? Hasn’t she had her agency, her power, her freedom stripped from her by white men of authority? I feel like the real villain of this piece is Kenneth DiLaurentis, who used Charles’s gender dysphoria as an excuse to lock them up in Radley, along with all the doctors, lawyers, and cops who allowed this to take place.

 

How does the recapper even know the Radley authorities are white men? From what we saw the only clearly defined person with influence at Radley was Jessica Di Laurentis, but hey, let's blame just Kenneth and some nebulous white men...

Edited August 13, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[mercfan3]

I don't think it absolves them of guilt. 

 

I think there's this idea that Villains are born or made. For example, in the show "Once Upon A Time"...it's clear that Regina was made a Villain by her upbringing. Meanwhile, Cruella was always an evil sociopath. Stories tend to go with "Villains are made" because it's a better story. 

 

Mona, Ali, Jenna, and CeCe did horrible things. The idea that the patriarchy made them into who they are does not take away from them doing horrible things. (As there are other characters that didn't do nearly as horrible things but also suffer under the patriarchy.) It does perhaps, give them room to change..to make things right. Because if they were born that way, then they can't change..verses if they are society created, they can change. 

 

And as for it being in every episode? I think that's what the show cares about. And of course it's in every finale. 

 

And I'll say this, if the show is going to delve so deep into patriarchal issues and queer theory, than a trans woman had to be a character. She didn't need to be A though. And the problems that come with the actual story takes away from the over arching theme. (As has been described.) 

 

What does, perhaps, absolve them of some guilt, is that the show continuously goes the mental illness route. Which, IMO, is not talked about nearly as much as it should be. Give them a personality disorder (psychopath) and they can't change. They're born a villain, they'll always be a villain. That's what all villains essentially are. So the show doesn't do that. But they give them, almost built in excuses. They don't examine mental illenss the way they examine patriarchal norms and queer theory. It's just "CeCe and Mona are this way because one lives in a hyper reality and the other was prone to bouts of violence - I forget what that was called." They aren't bad people, they just have these problems..and that's why they did what they did. This, right here..is the built in excuse the show gives them. 

 

The show has Mike, Bryon's brother, Meredith, Marion as other examples..it's not explained, it's not looked into deeper, and it's not accurate. It's used as an excuse, repeatedly for behavior. It's used to explain motives. 

[lorikauai]

Meh, I find it hard to swallow that PLL has some deeper feminist meaning when 90% of the show is cheap thrills and shock value and only 10% is storytelling (which frequently contradicts itself). If examination of deeper social issues is what they are going for it is an even greater failure than I thought. Of course I am 15 years out of college (and my last feminist theory course) and probably the most elderly of PLL viewers at 37 so your mileage may vary.

And Marlene is just as bad as her female villains. Instead of taking responsibility for her shitty storytelling she blames fandom for not getting her vision. Sure Marlene, it's always someone else's fault isn't it?

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Stories tend to go with "Villains are made" because it's a better story.

 

I disagree that one is inherently better than the other. Everything depends on the execution. Also, way too often, writers and especially portions of the fandom confuse justification with an excuse. Understanding what made the villain do all those horrible things is one thing. Jumping from that to "so the real villain is whoever made them become that way" is quite another. Case in point - why not have at least one of the Liars and Alison say "Jump then!" during that infamous scene on the roof? Because the writers crudely tried to manipulate us into sympathy for Cece and disregarded established characterization.

 

 

Mona, Ali, Jenna, and CeCe did horrible things. The idea that the patriarchy made them into who they are does not take away from them doing horrible things.

 

I would argue that it does... at least for the people who think Mona is their hero or that Lorenzo is more evil than Cece. I have no problem whatsover with anyone arguing that patriarchal mores or any other societal attitude can be a strong influence on this or that character. It's reducing everything to "but they were oppressed, so who can blame them for channeling their anger at innocent people, really?" that I find silly. I don't want to get into politics but that's basically like saying it's okay for terrorists to target civilians if they have had a bad enough upbringing. Come to think of it, some of Cece's acts were basically domestic terrorism, I'd like to see someone try out in real life that "she wasn't really the villain, though" defence with some domestic terrorist and see how it is received...

 

And yes, the writers are using mental illness as a writing crutch way too much. Can't think of any plausible motive? Why, Mona and Cece are disturbed individual, so their motives don't have to make any sense...

Edited August 13, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[itainttippithebird]

 

Of course I am 15 years out of college (and my last feminist theory course) and probably the most elderly of PLL viewers at 37 so your mileage may vary.

 

I'm 35, so I don't think age has much to do with it, but you're right, I think it's a YMMV sitch.

 

For those of y'all missing Jacob Clifton's TWOP analysis, he's now selling anthologies by season halves on Amazon! I bought them all a few weeks ago and have been enjoying using them as companion pieces to rewatching, which may be the only kind of watching I'll be doing going forward, *sad sigh*: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jacob+clifton&tag=googhydr-20&index=digital-text&hvadid=70111522639&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6745405062752633947&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5xm6lycaxz_b

Edited August 13, 2015 by itainttippithebird

[mercfan3]

Maybe "better story" is the wrong word..."easier story"...is maybe better. Making villains "made" instead of "born" means it's easier to make the character whole. 

 

Mona's so interesting. I love the character. I root for the character to be one of the girls. But logically I know she's horrible..perhaps the worst of the bunch..even if I do sympathize with her (in both the "patriarchy made her this way" and "bullying made her this way" sense..) and I think the biggest reason for that is Janel. Although I do love the character the way Mike loves the character. :P 

 

"but they were oppressed, so who can blame them for channeling their anger at innocent people, really?" I don't think the show is saying that. I don't know whether reviewers are saying that (for the most part, as much as I think Heather Hogan is awesome, I do think she can be off on occasion. Particularly with her instant hate of Lorenzo - who only earned that later in the season - and defense of Toby). I think it's much more nuanced than that. However, that's my interpretation and perhaps other people would see it as an excuse (maybe the younger audience.) 

Edited August 13, 2015 by mercfan3

[lorikauai]

I love Mona! She is a smart and sassy villain and I enjoy her antics but she is a villain. I hate when Marlene says she has been redeemed and is one of the girls now. No, she doesn't get a pass for all of her misdeeds. Insta-redemption is just a way for Marlene to switch around who the villains and heroes are so she can surprise the audience later. She did it with Mona, Toby, and Ezra and seemed to feel satisfied that the audience bought it each time (although a lot of us didn't) so this time she thought she could do reveal and redemption all in one tidy episode. 

[MinionBooty]

I and my best friend are both 41, and we watch with our daughters. Our husbands roll their eyes and wonder of to watch Dr. Who. So what age you watch I don't think means a lot unless you are watching for romance. 

 

Hoping a show a that's main bad person  is called A and wheres a hoodie EVERYWHERE, who has terrorized, victimized and sees nothing wrong with that, have real world logic... not possible.

 

I will say, I don't believe that Mr. D did one thing to make CeCe the way she was. Saying his not acceptance of her transgenderness made her the cray lady she is today is fuzzy math. That would be saying every parent out there that can not accept or has hard time accepting has to look forward to their child being crazy. This process is hard and i do wish they had not done it, because they did not show on equal sides how hard. I'm not saying he was a good man, but compared to the mother who accepted her, he really did not do much to his family or kids.

 

The character with the worst father on the show also has the best boyfriend. Whats that say about her self respect?

 

Redemption arch are hard... my favorite is the Faith arch, but even that one she was never really accepted again. Mona is rarely very sorry and usually only when it happens to Hannah.

Edited August 13, 2015 by MinionBooty

[fitzcarraldo]

To my mind it is more interesting to show how it would go another way. If Ali hadn't picked on Mona would she be different? She gloried in Spencer heartbroken over TobAy. Did Ali make her like that? Or was it just a spit in face of anyone she felt threatened by (and by that meaning her insecurity. Spencer didn't do anything to Mona). Adversity and meanies didn't make Hanna cruel. It did soften Spencer. Maybe she would have always been competitive with Melissa if it hadn't been shifting sight of importance. Why not contrast how some use environment to learn themselves and others? And others use it to dehumanize others. That's what happened. Cece and Mona dehumanized and played with people. Ali did it in the other kind of way. Not nice but no one HAD to hang with her. Kids in school absolutely could have formed their own Mona opinions. Sheep teens weren't invented by Ali. And Jessica kept Cece in Radley long after Ken thought his kid was dead but he's the evil one? Jessica let Jason date his sister, tried to frame Spencer. Ken just tried to protect Ali. He said it had happened before. I believe that in light of but I wasn't bad look Mona ran over Hanna with a car. Self-sentimentalizing excusatory tosh. No way Jessica didn't wonder where Bethany was either. Where was Ken mechanizing close to manipulating mental patients to get close to a bed buddy?

[Jenniferbug]

I admit, I do love Mona and overlook a lot of her misdeeds because I think she's fun and enjoy when she interacts with the girls. I completely, logically understand why others call her a villain and think she should pay for her crimes...but when I'm watching, I can't help but like her and want her to stick around. Irrational, but oh well.

And for the record, I'm 32 and have been watching from the beginning. The only other people I know who watch the show are 26, 28, and 35. The last one watches with her daughter, but the rest of us watch for ourselves.

[MinionBooty]

It's okay to love the bad guys as long as you remember they are the bad guys. Ever person on this planet has drama , bad memories, families that are less then perfect that we still love, and things we have done we would rather forget. That doesn't justify us to go ram a car through a house, kidnap, torture, cyber stalk and bully and engage in multiple attempts of murder.

 

On Buffy, I loved Faith, but I knew she was not a good girl and her intentions were not good, even if she did spice up Buffy's little perfect world.

 

For me, I love Hannah and Aria. Neither would forgive and forget. Especially with the fear  from Aria and the Anger form Hannah. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by MinionBooty

[cuddlingcrowley]

I hate to be "that fan" but I'm starting feel a little bad for Marlene King. She has been raving about this episode for weeks and was clearly proud of it but the backlash has been insane! I'm talking mainly about twitter. Things are brutal over there. I wish the fans focused on asking the questions that were left without answers and/or criticised the social issues that were mishandled. And not the other stuff, the personal attacks.

 

She's not backing down and her justifications are getting progressively worst but she's trying really, really hard to stay polite and you can tell it's been taking its toll on her. I'm in the minority where I don't want her to back down and accept she failed on the delivering what she promised she would (as far as the answers goes). What would be the point? The end-product is lacking, nothing will change that besides her attempting to salvage this thing anyway she can (not the transgender "twist" which was doomed from the start). But I honestly don't think it was for the lack of trying which is probably why I feel for her.

 

If it seemed like she didn't care about the show I'd be the first raging and possibly hate-quitting like I did with Supernatural but it seems to me she failed because the challenge was too great and she simply was incapable of living up to it.

 

I really sucks they didn't take a break after filming the finale and are so far ahead filming S6-B because this crew needs to stop this train and re-group. This is a whole new fandom they're dealing with. I know a lot of people will continue watching but I think the "let down" feeling is pretty universal and she really needs to do something to get the fans excited again otherwise a S7 won't be a sure thing, let alone a S8.

 

ETA: tumblr has started fixing it.

Edited August 13, 2015 by cuddlingcrowley

[Cranberry]

I think I'd feel worse for her if she wasn't blatantly lying about the timeline/flashback screwups and if she wasn't saying that fans dislike the finale because we just don't get what the show was trying to say (that did not go well for the LOST writers, either). To be clear, I don't think that anyone on the staff is transphobic at all. I think they just didn't think this through properly before going for the biggest shock factor ending they could come up with.

[cuddlingcrowley]

I think I'd feel worse for her if she wasn't blatantly lying about the timeline/flashback screwups and if she wasn't saying that fans dislike the finale because we just don't get what the show was trying to say (that did not go well for the LOST writers, either).

 

 

I get that. I personally don't see the point of not lying, you know? I'd rather she comes up with some crazy excuse like that about the flashback between Alison and Toby than say: our bad, it was bad continuity, like another member of the crew has done before. At least, that way I have the option of suspending my disbilief so it won't ruin the story.

 

To be clear, I don't think that anyone on the staff is transphobic at all. I think they just didn't think this through properly before going for the biggest shock factor ending they could come up with.

 

 

I think the same thing and I wish that on this instance they owned up to it because it has offended a lot people. And you know, it happens. As a writer, sometimes an idea can seem great and it completely flies over your head why it would be problematic because you're uninformed at the time you came up with it and you get attached to it. In tv, stuff moves really, really fast so you really don't have the luxury of going back and re-think your decisions like you'd have with a book for instance. So some humility here would be ideal I think.

 

I do see how a transgender character might seem like they natural next step for PLL. Which is where MK probably came from but the execution was simply horrible. Their explanation that a person who was treated like nothing would become a person who treated people like nothing sounds great when you say it like that, but that message got kinda lost, to say the least.

Edited August 13, 2015 by cuddlingcrowley

[Jack Shaftoe]

I would only feel bad for Marlene if it turns out she is contractually obligated to be active on twitter. If not... she can simply stop using twitter for a while, you know.

[cuddlingcrowley]

Troian speaking what should have been obvious to anyone for the last three years but you know, whatever.

 

Anyone else game for a PLL remake? I feel like it's inevitable. See y'all again in 5 years! (if the show has ended until then that is)

Edited August 14, 2015 by cuddlingcrowley

[lorikauai]

Obviously Marlene doesn't know her audience as well as she thought she did. It's not just the PLL that are five years older. Her season 1 teen audience has grown up and has higher expectations. Hopefully this will teach her to tighten up her writing and not leave so many glaring plot holes. In any case getting all defensive on social media is always a bad idea. Really all she needs to do is acknowledge that not all fans were as excited about the twist as she was and promote the new mysteries after the time jump.

[lion10]

I just don't get how some reviewers will try to justify and/or excuse the actions of the villains. How was Mona a victim of the patriarchy? Is that why she drugged Emily and hit Hanna with her car (thus *gasp* depriving them of bodily autonomy)? Is that why Jenna raped Toby or why Alison purposefully blinded her? Is that why Cece explicitly refers to the Liars as her "dolls" and casually dismisses how she almost cut Emily in half? The patriarchy made them do all of that? I'm impressed.

[fitzcarraldo]

I don't know if Marlene had a high opinion of viewers. She said enough times that A stole the game from Mona. Now Mona made Cece be A? And she only escaped Radley because of Mona... But before A enticed Mona to play again for a way out of Radley. Which is it? Are we so dumb we can't follow basic plot points and anything goes? But it is HER job and she can't stick to facts. We are supposed to know which facts are now the opposite by magic and the WRITER doesn't have to make any effort at all to make sense. Besides, if it were all praise on twitter it would be peachy? We are brainless praise machines? This show has been in production for a long time. They didn't make it up over night that A started in season three. Why throw in kidnapped Sara Harvey? Either Mona did it or Cece did it. With this timeline it is flat out nonsense. If they thought the fans weren't stupid they wouldn't go there. The benefit of the doubt isn't thrown to *us*.

[fitzcarraldo]

I just don't get how some reviewers will try to justify and/or excuse the actions of the villains. How was Mona a victim of the patriarchy? Is that why she drugged Emily and hit Hanna with her car (thus *gasp* depriving them of bodily autonomy)? Is that why Jenna raped Toby or why Alison purposefully blinded her? Is that why Cece explicitly refers to the Liars as her "dolls" and casually dismisses how she almost cut Emily in half? The patriarchy made them do all of that? I'm impressed.

They think they sound smart throwing around phrases like "male gaze" and "patriarchy".

For Wilden absolutely. He exploited young women with his badge. But it doesn't explain everything bad that ever happens.

[lion10]

They think they sound smart throwing around phrases like "male gaze" and "patriarchy".

For Wilden absolutely. He exploited young women with his badge. But it doesn't explain everything bad that ever happens.

There are tons of sketchy men in Rosewood no question but for the most part they seem to be on the periphery. And I'm mad that Ezra got "redeemed" as he did as Marlene seemed to enjoy playing both sides on the issue: Holbrook's a creep (which he was) but Ezra's such a good boyfriend. That said, most of the worst shit that's happened to the girls has been directly the result of the actions of other women, their peers.

[fitzcarraldo]

Their peers and themselves. Mona was blackmailing Emily about her sexuality so it is baffling to me how afterellen and autostraddle ignore this. Liars and Toby could have avoided a lot of this by saying no to blackmail. Wilden was crooked and definitely one bad dude. He knew they were innocent of that murder and pursued them anyway. I get not trusting cops after that. But "the Jenna thing" set up complicity and should not have happened. They tried to frame Ali too. I wish Melissa's line about survivor and predator was explored! Liars, Ali and Mona became what they feared. Toby too. He gave Cece that A start with that a mobile for his personal gain. Patriarchy doesn't explain me first and others in my way be damned. And when A uses Sara against them. Hanna says I dont know her. A could start threatening any hostage, then. When do the liars stop playing along? Right, they didnt. A gave up. Cheat, cheat, cheat. They were not forced into a corner. They didnt know what they had.

[MinionBooty]

And then there is Calab..... he i don't trust.......have you seen his hair?

[Cranberry]

I'm going to quote people in the Autostraddle comments again, as they're raising some interesting points over there related to this discussion. Link:

 

The problem I am having is that I am no longer able to convince myself that these feminist themes are actually as powerful as we have made them to be. I think I have had many conversations over the years with brilliant, wonderful women, and we have dissected this show for everything it is worth and have declared it a masterpiece. But I strongly suspect that unless people take the time to do that dissection, they won’t see past the pretty faces and the questionable relationships.

Basically, I can’t decide if the PLL writers have an extraordinary amount of faith in the cognitive capabilities of their audience and are catering to that, or if they are just taking advantage of the most marketable to section of society – teenage girls. I can’t decide if they are honestly trying to put these themes out there, or if they’ve decided it’s a happy accident if their viewers pick up on it, but it doesn’t really matter as long as they’re making money.

 

Yup. Honestly I didn’t even start thinking about these feminist themes and other subtle elements of the show until I started reading Heather’s recaps, which, in my opinion, really elevate recaps to an art form. Everything I read of Heather’s about the show I’m like “DAMN you are so smart about this!”, including everything here.

So I feel that way… but we also all know in our hearts of hearts that the majority of PLL’s audience will never pick up on any of those ideas or themes, and will take most things at face value, which, as far as this episode is concerned, is very very bad news.

 

THIS. Sometimes I can’t see the golden feminist thread in this show until Heather picks it out for me. Are we giving the writers too much credit?

This is related to what makes the show’s trans representation so egregious. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people ignorantly replicating the “he/she/it/bitch” reference. I’ve seen people having long debates about Charlotte’s body and sexuality while using “transgender” as a noun. By questioning whether Charlotte had sex with Jason, the writers invited the audience to dissect and pathologize trans bodies. If the writers want to offer a complicated trans storyline, they have to educate the audience with a well-developed narrative. They have to make subverting heteropatriarchal norms clear.

(Again, quotes trimmed to the essentials; click that link at the top of my post to see the full discussion.)

[itainttippithebird]

YES! If there's any silver lining to this, it's this amazing conversation happening at Autostraddle (and here)! I just get chills from reading these. So brilliant, so heartfelt.

[MinionBooty]

I guess I am confused why discussing the maybe they did/ maybe they didn't sex between Jason and Cece is a transgender thing and not a crazy  woman who saw no real family ties except with her mother thing.

 

 I mean what she did to Ali and Jason could never be called love sisterly or not. She tried to murder them both and put one in jail.

 

Also, if I may ask, at the young age of her change would she understand the changes that come with finally being in the right body with the right parts, when it came to sex? I mean this question with the highest of respect, so sorry if i butchered asking it.  I am learning so much, but it's like a book. Every new though has a new though on how this would work.

Edited August 14, 2015 by MinionBooty

[SadieT]

I hate to be "that fan" but I'm starting feel a little bad for Marlene King. She has been raving about this episode for weeks and was clearly proud of it but the backlash has been insane! I'm talking mainly about twitter. Things are brutal over there. I wish the fans focused on asking the questions that were left without answers and/or criticised the social issues that were mishandled. And not the other stuff, the personal attacks.

 

She's not backing down and her justifications are getting progressively worst but she's trying really, really hard to stay polite and you can tell it's been taking its toll on her. I'm in the minority where I don't want her to back down and accept she failed on the delivering what she promised she would (as far as the answers goes). What would be the point? The end-product is lacking, nothing will change that besides her attempting to salvage this thing anyway she can (not the transgender "twist" which was doomed from the start). But I honestly don't think it was for the lack of trying which is probably why I feel for her.

 

If it seemed like she didn't care about the show I'd be the first raging and possibly hate-quitting like I did with Supernatural but it seems to me she failed because the challenge was too great and she simply was incapable of living up to it.

 

I really sucks they didn't take a break after filming the finale and are so far ahead filming S6-B because this crew needs to stop this train and re-group. This is a whole new fandom they're dealing with. I know a lot of people will continue watching but I think the "let down" feeling is pretty universal and she really needs to do something to get the fans excited again otherwise a S7 won't be a sure thing, let alone a S8.

 

ETA: tumblr has started fixing it.

 

I kind of feel bad for her too. She really did seem to buy her own hype and think this reveal, which she clearly thought up at the last second despite what she's been saying about it being planned, was a brilliant and satisfying end to the A story. I think she honestly thought it would be well-received and is now going overboard trying to defend it because she didn't expect the backlash, but at the same time, I feel like she underestimates us as an audience and I don't appreciate that. The fans put way more thought into this show than the writing staff and that shouldn't be the case. The one thing I will give her credit for is that she's remaining polite and professional in her responses to the hate on twitter. I've seen other show runners/writers/producers get super defensive when a storyline doesn't go over well and lash out at and mock the fans who are criticizing it on social media.  

 

But I do wish she and the other writers wouldn't lie so much about the show. I get that they have to keep storylines under wraps because it is a "mystery show", but then just don't address those questions, or answer with a simple, "I can't talk about that right now" or "watch and see". The cast does this all the time when they have to do press and they're asked things they can't answer without giving something away. Marlene doesn't have to answer questions asked of her by fans on twitter so she doesn't have to lie, she chooses to. Didn't she or someone else flat out deny they were doing a trans story when asked once? Why answer that question if you're just going to lie. She could just as easily only address the questions on social media that won't give much away. She's like the showrunner who cried wolf and now most of her audience distrusts her and while her intentions may be good, she only has herself to blame for that.

 

I think I'd feel worse for her if she wasn't blatantly lying about the timeline/flashback screwups and if she wasn't saying that fans dislike the finale because we just don't get what the show was trying to say (that did not go well for the LOST writers, either). To be clear, I don't think that anyone on the staff is transphobic at all. I think they just didn't think this through properly before going for the biggest shock factor ending they could come up with.

 

Also her excuses are just terrible. Toby and Alison weren't teens but they wanted their actors to portray them in the flashback for creative reasons, when that's never been the case before. We've seen flashbacks of Alison as a little girl and she was an actual little girl, not Sasha pretending to be 7 years old. If she didn't want to admit they they messed up the timeline, why not say Toby's recollection of the near kiss never really happened. We know flashbacks are unreliable and they can't necessarily be trusted to paint the whole picture. So why not just say that flashback was in Toby's head because maybe he had a crush on Alison and wanted to kiss her and wanted his mother to still be alive so he created the whole thing in his mind of what it would be like if he got both those things? Or, I don't know, that doesn't make much sense either but they could at least try to come up with something that makes more sense than Keegan and Sasha were playing hyper-sexualized elementary school aged children for creative and visual reasons. 

 

Troian speaking what should have been obvious to anyone for the last three years but you know, whatever.

 

Anyone else game for a PLL remake? I feel like it's inevitable. See y'all again in 5 years! (if the show has ended until then that is)

 

They did reduce the number of episodes this season. 6A had 10 episodes instead of 12 and I remember reading somewhere that 6B will also be 10, making the total number of episodes 20 instead of the usual 24/25. And still this whole half season was basically filler up until the finale which was a straight hour of exposition. So I don't think fewer episodes will help make the story better, it would just mean there's less bad episodes to watch.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SadieT

[mercfan3]

or how about getting actors that would be the right age for the scene in the finale? I mean, there was no reason why they had to be kids. What was CeCe supposed to be at that time? 18/19? Or make CeCe a year younger than Jason if Marlene wanted to have her be as young as possible in that scene.  There would be no reason why CeCe and Bethany couldn't have been a bit older there..

[dohe]

They think they sound smart throwing around phrases like "male gaze" and "patriarchy".

For Wilden absolutely. He exploited young women with his badge. But it doesn't explain everything bad that ever happens.

The usage of the term male gaze can be humorous as it is often evident that most people who use that term seem clueless about that antiquated and heteronormative concept. 

[Perfect Xero]

Marlene used the wrong excuse, she should have just told us that Alison was picturing young "Freddie" from the birthday video because that's the only face she knew for Charles.

[SadieT]

Marlene used the wrong excuse, she should have just told us that Alison was picturing young "Freddie" from the birthday video because that's the only face she knew for Charles.

 

That works better too. Although flashbacks are typically seen from the perspective of the person telling the story, which would be Charlotte's. But even then, why not say Charlotte was picturing herself as a younger more innocent version of herself or something? I don't even know how that would work but almost anything would have been better than the explanation we got. At least no one in the fandom is buying it though and instead having some fun with the ridiculousness of Marlene's explanation. Like this gem. 

[Cranberry]

This one is my favorite.

The "but did she die?" thing is becoming a meme, too. I've seen posts for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., The 100, Carmilla, real life... (I think the actual line was, "But was she hurt? No," but this still amuses me.)

[itainttippithebird]

Also, the stupid Toby/Alison flashback doesn't even matter because WE SAW EMILY AND TOBY DISCUSS IT, with SPECIFIC DATES, in The First Secret! It doesn't matter if that flashback is unreliable, we know the literal date and year Mrs. Cavanaugh died. Ugh!

 

(The only reason I remembered that so immediately is because ABC Family SHOWED that episode a few hours before the finale. Big programming goof if they wanted this finale to stick the landing, weirdly. I mean, I know ABC Family isn't actually following the show to know these things, but it was serendipitously bad choice!)

Edited August 14, 2015 by itainttippithebird

[DigitalCount]

Also, the stupid Toby/Alison flashback doesn't even matter because WE SAW EMILY AND TOBY DISCUSS IT, with SPECIFIC DATES, in The First Secret! It doesn't matter if that flashback is unreliable, we know the literal date and year Mrs. Cavanaugh died. Ugh!

(The only reason I remembered that so immediately is because ABC Family SHOWED that episode a few hours before the finale. Big programming goof if they wanted this finale to stick the landing, weirdly. I mean, I know ABC Family isn't actually following the show to know these things, but it was serendipitously bad choice!)

HAHA these guys suck!

[Jack Shaftoe]

I'd like to continue the discussion about feminist themes in PLL. In 130 episodes what the Liars have achieved in regards to defeating the Big Bads is less than the heroine of your average slasher flick achieves in 90 minutes. Both main villains more or less gave themselves up and the only reason they didn't completely ruin the Liars' lives is because they liked the game too much to end it so soon. Exploring how women are victimized and marginalized is important, of course, but I think the show badly needed to have the Liars score some real successes because at some point it became not so much exploration as exploitation. And forgiving the villains so easily just adds insult to injury. It makes the protagonists seem like the proverbial gluttons for punishment. And then we also have Spencer immediately forgiving Toby, Aria still swooning over her stalker, Emily still having feelings for the girl who mocked her constantly, including her sexuality...

 

In other words, we are told the Liars are strong and smart but as much as I love them (well, 50% of them at least), I have to deliberately ignore huge chunks of the show to believe that because they so often behave like people who are frankly too stupid to live. Being flawed is one thing but this is something else. For instance, Spencer jumping to conclusions? Interesting character trait at first which eventually became so over the top that it was hard to take the character seriously. As one of Jacob's recaps put it once "Liars: You are so right about who A is every week."

Edited August 14, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[DigitalCount]

I'm trying to think of a good quote dealing with social issues, because we definitely need a thread for that especially now.

[fitzcarraldo]

I'd like to continue the discussion about feminist themes in PLL. In 130 episodes what the Liars have achieved in regards to defeating the Big Bads is less than the heroine of your average slasher flick achieves in 90 minutes. Both main villains more or less gave themselves up and the only reason they didn't completely ruin the Liars' lives is because they liked the game too much to end it so soon. Exploring how women are victimized and marginalized is important, of course, but I think the show badly needed to have the Liars score some real successes because at some point it became not so much exploration as exploitation. And forgiving the villains so easily just adds insult to injury. It makes the protagonists seem like the proverbial gluttons for punishment. And then we also have Spencer immediately forgiving Toby, Aria still swooning over her stalker, Emily still having feelings for the girl who mocked her constantly, including her sexuality...

In other words, we are told the Liars are strong and smart but as much as I love them (well, 50% of them at least), I have to deliberately ignore huge chunks of the show to believe that because they so often behave like people who are frankly too stupid to live. Being flawed is one thing but this is something else. For instance, Spencer jumping to conclusions? Interesting character trait at first which eventually became so over the top that it was hard to take the character seriously. As one of Jacob's recaps put it once "Liars: You are so right about who A is every week."

This! They never defeated A. Girls stay victims on this show. And cavalierly dismissing Mona rage killing Bethany? Because she accidentally killed a murderer instead of Ali? What is this show trying to say?

[cuddlingcrowley]

They did reduce the number of episodes this season. 6A had 10 episodes instead of 12 and I remember reading somewhere that 6B will also be 10, making the total number of episodes 20 instead of the usual 24/25. And still this whole half season was basically filler up until the finale which was a straight hour of exposition. So I don't think fewer episodes will help make the story better, it would just mean there's less bad episodes to watch.

 

 

Reducing the number of episodes from 24/25 to 20 won't make a difference, we agree on that. For there to be a difference they should make 10/13 episode seasons. We'd be rid of the fillers and the writers would have more time to create a good story instead of getting wasted on coming up with useless storylines for fillers. This is all hypothetical of course. At this point, nothing less than a remake will fix this show.

[dwmckim]

Quite honestly, i don't even really care so much about things like how this could be interpreted as the latest in a long history of trans representation in film/tv being only as villain (and this coming from a 43 yo gay man who's followed the representation of the glbt community for a long time), but i'm more offended by:

 

- The fact that fans were specifically told on social media that they wouldn't be going the route of Cece is transgendered and is A and then that's EXACTLY what was broadcast especially while the show's PTB were doing a whole "No More Lies" promotional buzz

- That Marlene was working hard the "No More Lies - *ALL* your questions will be answered" angle (T-shirt and all) knowing full well they weren't answering everything.

- The answers that were given were either contradictory to things previously shown and/or answered in the form of throwaway lines.

 

Any showrunner that sets up a program under those terms and then delivers what was produced is fully deserving of the backlash they receive,