Season 5 (A & B) Discussion

[AliShibaz]

Well, I just watched Hank & Marie (this pair definitely needs a nickname to describe the both of them ... the name "Dumb" would certainly apply to one of them. Maybe Marie's Kleptomania might serve as part of a nickname. I just don't think it's right to take someone's illness and use that as a Nick). But both of them are kind of dumb and also kind of evil or nasty. I really have bad feelings towards Marie. Again, this is a person who feels they are needed to help other people "fix" things but invariably they seem to just make things worse - even turn things into big disasters when they try to help a small problem). If Marie were my sister-in-law, I would def try to get some kind of restraining order to keep her away from me. Or .. what is the name that people give to minors when they have parents like Marie? Oh. Yes. "Emancipated Minors". I would def want to become emancipated from Marie. The harder she tries to help, the worse she makes things. Skyler and Hank are brother and sister. For a long time I thought that Skyler and Marie shared a family gene. But I was mistaken because they are not sisters. However, they both seem to feel compelled to know what people are doing and once they find out, they feel compelled to "fix" things - especially when they don't need fixing. When they do need fixing, they have a very unique talent in that they seem to be able to take a small problem and turn it into a big disaster. I would never want to let either of those ladies anywhere near my life.

Hank isn't much better. His stupid joking manner before his accident really got on my nerves. Whenever he opened his mouth, I just wondered to myself, "This guy is a DEA Agent? Something is wrong somewhere in DEA Land."

Anyway, I just watched the scene where Hank realized that he had been defeated by Skyler because unbknownst to him, W&S had paid all his medical bills and so Walt's "confession" was pretty damning." Hank knows he is a long way away from arresting Walter. My prediction doesn't seem to be as likely as I thought it might.

The one funny thing is that I'm developing a new appreciation and respect for Skyler. She knew enough to help Walt defeat The Dumbell Duo and I'm guessing it was her idea to use that in Walt's confession. Say what you will about Skler (and I know that I already have said way too much). But she is one smart cookie! I loved the way she defeated that nasty Romanian car wash owner and she was also able to push around Ted all she wanted - although I'm sure she has a good heart because she felt so badly that she had put him into such a poor state.

I'll tell you. I would never ever want to "tangle" with Skyler. I'm fairly certain that she is smarter than me. Much smarter.

Edited May 12, 2016 by AliShibaz

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

 I'd like to say that I feel a terrible disdain for Hank and his stupid / crazy wife.

Funny you should say that.  I always liked Hank...more to do with my crush on Dean Norris than the character himself, though :)...but couldn't stand Marie.  I especially hated her when she was going to open houses and stealing things from people's homes, and she REALLY ticked me off when she called the RE agent "fatty."  However, not only did she grow on me but I ended up absolutely loving her.

[AliShibaz]

I felt as if I was present during the conversation between Pinkman (by the way, has anyone ever made the comparison between Pinkman and Mr. Pink from that QT film?). Anyway, it went like this ...

"He's smarter than you. He's luckier than you. Everytime you try to hurt him, things always seem to turn out well for him."

I felt like I should have added:

"It's as if this is some TV show and it's his show. So, he can't be killed. Don't you get that?"

Giggle.

Edited May 12, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

I can't remember what Judge Judy calls this but it's basically the *were it not for* argument.  Skylar saved Ted and his raggedy ass accounting practices from filing bankruptcy on his father's legacy and his own personal financial ruin by striking a settlement deal with the feds.   Were it not for his stubborn and stupid refusal to pay the IRS with the money his "aunt" bequeathed like he was supposed to, she wouldn'tve sent anybody to, um, persuade him.   I'm sure being semi-comatose isn't fun.  Buuuuuuut, on the other hand, Bernake Industries stayed in business.  

You must be very intuitive. In Law, that is called the "but for" argument. Joe did X and but for his doing that, all this other stuff would never have happened.

It's not any kind of official law or legal doctrine. But it's used when making arguments. So ... nice call!

[ZaldamoWilder]

7 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

You must be very intuitive. In Law, that is called the "but for" argument. Joe did X and but for his doing that, all this other stuff would never have happened.

It's not any kind of official law or legal doctrine. But it's used when making arguments. So ... nice call!

Thank you, I curtsy.  Low to no intuition, but maybe too much tv.  :D

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Skyler and Hank are brother and sister. For a long time I thought that Skyler and Marie shared a family gene. But I was mistaken because they are not sisters.

My internal sardonic button is broken so I'm not sure if you mean these are the two that should be related, but in case not ::BrickHeckwhispers:: Sky and Marie are the blood relatives.   Their maiden name is Lambert.  Hank's last name is Schrader.

[Lisin]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

by the way, has anyone ever made the comparison between Pinkman and Mr. Pink from that QT film?

It is a reference to Reservoir Dogs, Walt's name is too. Walter White/Mr. White, Jesse Pinkman/Mr. Pink. It doesn't mean anything necessarily but Vince Gilligan really loves to add in little things like that. Don't read this article until you're done because Big Spoilers! but it points out some more cool stuff like that. 

[AliShibaz]

Oh dear. Silly mistake. Of course Marie & Skyler are sisters. Also,  how silly that I noticed the comparison with Mr. Pink but not Mr. White?

OK. I have two epis left. I just finished Episode 14 where Walt takes the package he "abducted" and left it at the fire station. I don't want to be specific because I don't want to spoil things for any other new comers.

But I have two epis left. I saw someone upthread said she was very sympathetic to Marie by the end and actually loved Marie. I can't imagine how or why. But I still have two episodes left. Last line from WW was that he still had something left to do. I can't imagine what. He hasn't seemed to learn the lesson very well about divulging info to people. Telling Jessie that he could have saved Jane but chose not to was a very big mistake. It couldn't possibly help WW and could come back to bite him in the rear.

I'm almost afraid to watch these last two episodes. This may well have been the very best TV show I've ever seen and ... well ... I just don't want it to be over. Before I started binge watching all five seasons, my TV life was very unhappy and lonely. I used to just count the 4 days between watching Game of Thrones until The Americans came on. Then I had to wait another 3 days until the next episode of Game of Thrones. I suppose that I am a TV snob. But, IMHO,  nothing else is worth watching right now. Nothing at all. At some point, I just got tired of movies. Most of them were all the same or highly similar. I just no longer found any joy in new movies. I would watch some of my old favorites, like The Eagle has Landed, The Boys from Brazil, Guns of Navarone. I could watch those over and over. But there are only about one hundred movies like that and I had run out of those stand bys a long, long time ago.

I still watch many old standby TV shows that I can watch over and over. But there is a very limited number of those and ultimately, I found that I just needed some new hobbies to occupy myself. I started studying piano but quickly grew tired of that. Very long story there. I just don't want to go back to watching one good new episode and then waiting 4 days or 3 days before a new episode came out. But I just don't know what else to do.

Any suggestions?

OK. Well, back to the main point of Breaking Bad. I have no idea how this will end. I suppose there will have to be some kind of big clash between the group of meth heads that killed Hank and Jesse and WW. I have no idea how that will play out and I really can't get into it. I can't find much motivation to watch. I don't really care which one of those groups comes out on top. I don't much care how WW's family life works out. I suppose I would like to see him reunited with his family and live happily ever after into the sunset. But that is pretty doubtful.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Marie. I guess I feel like she deserves anything bad that happens to her. Walt's son is pretty much of a shithead. I know it's not fair for me to judge him. But both he and Skyler would tell Walt, "Please stop just for a second and talk to me." But that is not what they meant. Walt wanted them to escape with him and they just kept throwing monkey wrenches into his plans. They just wanted enough info so they could call the police and really thwart his plans.

I feel like I should have no sympathy for either of them. But I can't help the way I feel about Skylar. I really like her and admire her. She is a very savvy woman and I'm glad Walt didn't abduct the child for very long. Seems to me he didn't really abduct her anyway since she was his daughter and he only had her for a few hours. But that's not really a very important plot point. It's just kind of a wakeup slap in the face for Skylar. Marie has to suffer one whole Hell of a lot more - and rightly so.

I guess I better go back and finish watching now. It's not really fair for me to spam you all with my knee jerk reactions. I'll just finish by saying this has been the greatest TV show I've ever seen. Thank you all very much for your great thoughts on this show.

Edited May 13, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

OK. I finished watching the entire show. Fabulous. Fantastic. Definitely the very best TV show I've ever seen.

Aside from that, I'd just like to say thank you to all the people who worked so hard to make this forum equally great. It has some wonderful features and the level of conversation and posts here rank extremely high. I'm very happy to have discovered this place and to have had the opportunity to make some posts here.

Best wishes to all of you.

[ghoulina]

I grew to like Marie by the end as well. Yes, she was bitchy to Skylar and her stealing was a real problem. But the way she stood by Hank after his accident really made me see her in a new light. He was a perfect ass to her, but she knew he was going through a rough time and just put up with it. I also loved how fiercely protective she was of everyone in the end. 

I'm not sure why Skylar and Flynn were supposed to go along with Walt's "plans". Walt was a greedy egomaniac. He started out wanting to make a nest egg for his family, in the likely event of his death. But it was never enough. He put their lives at risk, took them through hell and back. I didn't see them as "trying to thwart his plans", but trying to keep themselves and the family safe, and be good people - the latter really applies more to Flynn. Skylar definitely became complicit to a degree. And that's why I love this show - there are so many shades of grey. Rarely is anyone all good or all bad. But Flynn. He was just an innocent kid in all of this. He adored his father, and his father basically ruined the entire family. I really can't think of any reason not to feel sympathetic for that boy. 

[ByTor]

9 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I grew to like Marie by the end as well. Yes, she was bitchy to Skylar and her stealing was a real problem. But the way she stood by Hank after his accident really made me see her in a new light. He was a perfect ass to her, but she knew he was going through a rough time and just put up with it.

That's exactly how I came to like her as well...she just loved Hank so much that she was willing to put up with anything for his sake.  There was a scene when he was recovering where she was faking an upbeat attitude with Hank but went off by herself and cried, and that's what sealed it for me.  Plus, I had to pity anyone who was stuck growing up with Skylar :)

[susannot]

I've been re-watching.  And loathing Walt more and more.  In "Dead Freight" he manipulates Hank, just like he has manipulated everyone else around him.  As a direct result, he kills his brother in law.

[heatherchandler]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2014 at 8:35 AM, ghoulina said:

Oh really? Could someone PM me how to access it? Thanks!

Ok, I know that this post if VERY old, but I am doing a re-watch of BB and I was wondering if you know where I can find the old TWOP sites, archived.  Did anyone PM you with the info?

[Chaos Theory]

On 5/13/2016 at 10:19 AM, ghoulina said:

 

I'm not sure why Skylar and Flynn were supposed to go along with Walt's "plans". Walt was a greedy egomaniac. He started out wanting to make a nest egg for his family, in the likely event of his death. But it was never enough. He put their lives at risk, took them through hell and back. I didn't see them as "trying to thwart his plans", but trying to keep themselves and the family safe, and be good people - the latter really applies more to Flynn. Skylar definitely became complicit to a degree. And that's why I love this show - there are so many shades of grey. Rarely is anyone all good or all bad. But Flynn. He was just an innocent kid in all of this. He adored his father, and his father basically ruined the entire family. I really can't think of any reason not to feel sympathetic for that boy. 

I know I am very late responding. I always thought starting a nest egg for his family was a bullshit  excuse for Walt acting out even from the beginning.  He wanted recognition for his brilliance and he didn't care where it came from and resented it when he felt someone stole it from him even when he benefited.  When Flynn did that Internet GoFundMe thing and Walt funneled his money through it and it got public recognition Walt began to resent  his own son even though he was able to use his sons idea to funnel dirty drug money.  The same with the car wash.  It wasn't his idea and he resented Skyler for making it work.    It was a legitimate front to wash his dirty money that could have become a string of profitable Businesses on their own but Walt didn't want that. Then there was Gale who Hank thought was Heisenberg.  Walt could have let it be but his ego would not let that happen.  

Edited December 30, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

Ok, I know that this post if VERY old, but I am doing a re-watch of BB and I was wondering if you know where I can find the old TWOP sites, archived.  Did anyone PM you with the info?

Here you go!

http://web.archive.org/web/20140413212054/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/forum/1173-breaking-bad-general-gabbery

[heatherchandler]

48 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Here you go!

http://web.archive.org/web/20140413212054/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/forum/1173-breaking-bad-general-gabbery

Thank you thank you thank you!  I know what I am doing for the rest of the day!

[ByTor]

1 minute ago, heatherchandler said:

Thank you thank you thank you!  I know what I am doing for the rest of the day!

You're very welcome.  It's fun to see the comments from the show's original run!

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know I am very late responding. I always thought starting a nest egg for his family was a bullshit  excuse for Walt acting out even from the beginning.  He wanted recognition for his brilliance and he didn't care where it came from and resented it when he felt someone stole it from him even when he benefited.

I do get this point of view, I have considered it before. I'm just not sure if it works for me. I do think Walt was a bitter, resentful shell of a man at the start of the series. But I don't think he set out to make meth in order to get recognition. I don't think he had any clue how it would go, how good he would be, how in demand his product would be. I don't know that he could have forseen any of that. I really do think he was desperately scrambling at a quick way to set his family up after his death. But I do think that the transformation happened really quickly, once he realized the power there was in what he was doing. He had multiple chances to stop and go another route, but he loved who he was too much to stop.

[qtpye]

Season five Walt was pure Heisenberg.  I am shocked at how bad he is with people.  Someone on another thread talked about that Walt was a very bad liar and Skylar lied pretty flawlessly.  This is true.  Walt was clueless about how to deal with people.  When he is trying to manipulate Jessie into staying in the business after they killed Drew Sharp, he says all the wrong things.  First, he patronizingly complements him in a way he never has before, then he calls him a loser with nothing in his life that will just start using again, and lastly he calls him a hypocrite for wanting his five million dollars ( he was not wrong, but he still was coming off like an arrogant asshole).

[Chaos Theory]

5 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I do get this point of view, I have considered it before. I'm just not sure if it works for me. I do think Walt was a bitter, resentful shell of a man at the start of the series. But I don't think he set out to make meth in order to get recognition. I don't think he had any clue how it would go, how good he would be, how in demand his product would be. I don't know that he could have forseen any of that. I really do think he was desperately scrambling at a quick way to set his family up after his death. But I do think that the transformation happened really quickly, once he realized the power there was in what he was doing. He had multiple chances to stop and go another route, but he loved who he was too much to stop.

To a certain extent of course you are correct but also look at the path he chose.  Lets face it Walt was a genius chemist that is just a fact.   It was his hubris that beat him the end.  It was also hubris and well jealously that made him chose cooking meth which put him in direct competition with Hank.  Why else chose that specific drug?  If Hank wasn't his primary reason he at minimum was a convient perk.

One of the things I admired about Hank was that he was able to suck it up and do what was best for his family even when his pride got hurt.  I think it was the second season when Marie gave Skylar that stolen tiara and Skyler stopped talking to her.  It was Hank that went to Skyler and when Skyler put it out there Hank could have made excuses.  He instead was honest about what was going on. I think that was when I started to realize what the show was starting to do. While Walt and Skyler were breaking bad Hank and Marie were breaking good.  It was a contrast of marriages.  None of them were ever portrayed as perfect but while Walt and Skylers marriage devolved into anger lies and betrayal Hank and Marie's marriage strengthened by love and acceptance.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

To a certain extent of course you are correct but also look at the path he chose.  Lets face it Walt was a genius chemist that is just a fact.   It was his hubris that beat him the end.  It was also hubris and well jealously that made him choice cooking meth which put him in direct competition with Hank.  Why else chose that specific drug?  If Hank wasn't his primary reason he at minimum was a convient perk.

 

I think it was Hubris from the start to some extent. I can't remember how early it was, but it was very early in season 1 that Elliot Schwartz offered to basically cover all of Walt's medical bills for any kind of treatment. If he was really the kind of person who would really do anything to help his family he would have taken that offer without a second thought.

[ketose]

Walter White was a facade, which is not a new theory. But it was a facade even before Heisenberg. Walt was meticulous, but I'm not sure he was a genius. He made extremely pure meth because he was obsessed with cleaning the equipment and finding sources of contamination. I don't think the show ever tried to prove Walt made a new form of super meth, except for the legend of blue meth, which would actually be an impurity.

Walt was arrogant, and that eventually drove everything. He had this idea of leaving in a blaze of glory, which is probably why he was so angry when he went into remission. He wasn't a good planner or liar, but he was lucky and frequently found clever ways to escape. Were it not for Saul Goodman, he would have been discovered or dead pretty early on. Skyler kept track of the money. Jesse thought of magnets, bitch.

[ByTor]

I'm pretty sure Walt was supposed to be a genius.  I thought that whatever is was that Gray Matter produced (and received a Nobel prize nomination for) was based on Walt's research.  Gale (no dummy himself) seemed quite impressed with Walt's skills as well.

[ghoulina]

I agree that Walt was a genius. I never questioned that. I think the facade part was the nice, humble husband; content to work two jobs and take care of his family. He wanted more. He always did. Getting sick gave him a chance to have that. His pride mattered more to him, in the end, than anything else.

Quote

 

[ByTor]

My comment was in reply to ketose's comment that "Walt was meticulous, but I'm not sure he was a genius."

Edited January 2, 2017 by ByTor

[bad things are bad]

AliShiBaz, if you like The Americans, you might also like Deutschland 83 (German, subtitled). A bit of a challenge to watch at first but pretty good stuff. 

[LoneHaranguer]

On 12/31/2016 at 2:00 PM, ketose said:

I don't think the show ever tried to prove Walt made a new form of super meth, except for the legend of blue meth, which would actually be an impurity.

The color was supposed to be due to the arrangement of the atoms, not an impurity.

[larapu2000]

On 12/30/2016 at 0:36 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I know I am very late responding. I always thought starting a nest egg for his family was a bullshit  excuse for Walt acting out even from the beginning.  He wanted recognition for his brilliance and he didn't care where it came from and resented it when he felt someone stole it from him even when he benefited.  When Flynn did that Internet GoFundMe thing and Walt funneled his money through it and it got public recognition Walt began to resent  his own son even though he was able to use his sons idea to funnel dirty drug money.  The same with the car wash.  It wasn't his idea and he resented Skyler for making it work.    It was a legitimate front to wash his dirty money that could have become a string of profitable Businesses on their own but Walt didn't want that. Then there was Gale who Hank thought was Heisenberg.  Walt could have let it be but his ego would not let that happen.  

I completely agree.  Walt was always who he was from the beginning of the series.  In fact, I noticed on re-watch that he goes on the bust with Hank before he's ever diagnosed, and he's clearly intrigued by the amount of money they're hauling out of the house.  I'm pretty sure this was deliberately ordered in this specific way-that just because Walt claims it was for his family, he wanted to do it before he even knew he was going to die.

I'm with everyone here that grew to not just like, but love, Marie and Hank.  They are nails on a chalkboard up until Hank gets shot.  Hank then gets some much needed hubris and softened edges, but a renewed sense of purpose, and Marie gets slightly more self-righteous, but not in a silly way, in a real and tangible way when she tries to convince Skylar to get out of the marriage, etc. 

In fact, everyone I kind of disliked in the pilot (Hank, Marie, Jesse) were my favorites by the end.  There is no way I would have believed you if you told me Jesse would be my favorite by the end, absolutely no way.  

AliShiBaz, perhaps you might like the show Narcos on Netflix?  It's not as intelligent or intricately (and gracefully) plotted as Breaking Bad, but it's based on reality-and if you were a little young when Pablo Escobar was terrorizing the world like I was, reality is stranger than fiction!  If you like The Americans, have you watched Homeland?  Carrie is like early Hank to me, and drives me crazy, but the show is fantastic, and VERY smart.

[Uncle JUICE]

On 1/4/2017 at 9:09 AM, larapu2000 said:

I completely agree.  Walt was always who he was from the beginning of the series.  In fact, I noticed on re-watch that he goes on the bust with Hank before he's ever diagnosed, and he's clearly intrigued by the amount of money they're hauling out of the house.  I'm pretty sure this was deliberately ordered in this specific way-that just because Walt claims it was for his family, he wanted to do it before he even knew he was going to die.

I'm with everyone here that grew to not just like, but love, Marie and Hank.  They are nails on a chalkboard up until Hank gets shot.  Hank then gets some much needed hubris and softened edges, but a renewed sense of purpose, and Marie gets slightly more self-righteous, but not in a silly way, in a real and tangible way when she tries to convince Skylar to get out of the marriage, etc. 

In fact, everyone I kind of disliked in the pilot (Hank, Marie, Jesse) were my favorites by the end.  There is no way I would have believed you if you told me Jesse would be my favorite by the end, absolutely no way.  

AliShiBaz, perhaps you might like the show Narcos on Netflix?  It's not as intelligent or intricately (and gracefully) plotted as Breaking Bad, but it's based on reality-and if you were a little young when Pablo Escobar was terrorizing the world like I was, reality is stranger than fiction!  If you like The Americans, have you watched Homeland?  Carrie is like early Hank to me, and drives me crazy, but the show is fantastic, and VERY smart.

Walt comes home to the birthday party after being diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer, and it's then that he asks Hank about a ride-along. He didn't dream of being a meth dealer. I don't agree that Walt was Heisenberg from the program's inception. To me, the minute he starts to test out the "Heisenberg" persona (not the hat, not the name,the alter ego) is not until season two. Yeah, I know that's after he used the fulminated mercury at Tuco's den, but that was more a defensive maneuver, so that he could get the money he needed (remember, they keep LOSING the money they make for this reason or that, and without Tuco they'd have been trying to move teenths instead of pounds, not fast enough). The GoFundMe page was definitely a piece of Walt's ego and pride, but that seemed retrofitted into the series as a way to launder the money he was making (they realized he needed a way to launder it BEFORE they thought of Walt's ego as a major character trait). 

The moment he first tries on the Heisenberg face is in "Over." The very end of the episode, Walter's shopping in a Home Depot type store, I think to repair the floor in his house (a little on the nose there, writer's room). He sees a guy he's certain is buying cook supplies, and when he's in the parking lot, the junkie guy is talking to a biker looking bad ass. It's right here that Walter decides fuck these two idiots, and he tells him succinctly: "Stay out of my territory." To me, that's the volta.

God, I hope people sitll want to talk about this show. In my view the best show that ever was.  

[Uncle JUICE]

On 5/12/2016 at 9:32 PM, AliShibaz said:

 

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Marie. I guess I feel like she deserves anything bad that happens to her. Walt's son is pretty much of a shithead. I know it's not fair for me to judge him. But both he and Skyler would tell Walt, "Please stop just for a second and talk to me." But that is not what they meant. Walt wanted them to escape with him and they just kept throwing monkey wrenches into his plans. They just wanted enough info so they could call the police and really thwart his plans.

I feel like I should have no sympathy for either of them. But I can't help the way I feel about Skylar. I really like her and admire her. She is a very savvy woman and I'm glad Walt didn't abduct the child for very long. Seems to me he didn't really abduct her anyway since she was his daughter and he only had her for a few hours. But that's not really a very important plot point. It's just kind of a wakeup slap in the face for Skylar. Marie has to suffer one whole Hell of a lot more - and rightly so.

 

I wonder if this person felt the same way after the final three episodes of this show. Tohajilee, Granite State, Felina, just insane.

To me, the last three episodes transcend television and  are an artistic achievement akin to Rubber Soul / Yesterday and Today / Revolver, or Off The Wall / Thriller / Bad. You simply can't believe the last one's better than the one before it. I remember being so, so sad when Tohajillee (sp) ends, and realizing that to a person, anyone who came into contact with Walter White once he had his cancer diagnosed had their lives negatively affected, and the closer you got to him, to his true love, his Baby Blue, the closer to total ruination those deleterious effects were. The way this show stuck its landing was just incredible. 

[susannot]

Ozymandias came after Tohajilee, but you're right, those 4 episodes represent a landmark achievement in television.  I found Ozymandias particularly thrilling because it showed us Skylar reaching the limits of her endurance in explosive fashion, and Walt stripped bare of his delusions.

Edited January 5, 2017 by susannot
misspelled name

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The moment he first tries on the Heisenberg face is in "Over." The very end of the episode, Walter's shopping in a Home Depot type store, I think to repair the floor in his house (a little on the nose there, writer's room). He sees a guy he's certain is buying cook supplies, and when he's in the parking lot, the junkie guy is talking to a biker looking bad ass. It's right here that Walter decides fuck these two idiots, and he tells him succinctly: "Stay out of my territory." To me, that's the volta.

That was what I thought on my first watch. The Home Depot meeting was when he officially "broke bad". But I've since then come to think that it happened earlier - at Gretchen and Eliot's party. They offered to help him. I know it would have hurt his pride, immensely, but he could have taken care of everything. EVERYTHING. He chooses to decline and then goes to Jesse by the end of the episode - "Let's cook".

I do think at the very start he had good intentions, but I think things quickly get away from him. The irony is that, while he's dying, he feels more alive than ever. I think it quickly becomes about more than the money. If he had the money from Gretchen and Eliot, he wouldn't be able to justify continuing to cook. And he LIKES cooking. 

I also think that there might be some grey area between what WE see as the signs of him changing into Heisenberg and when HE ultimately realizes it. And I might concede that for HIM that moment is in the Home Depot parking lot. But, for me, I saw it much earlier. 

 

I hope people never stop talking about the show either! Just this thread being brought back to life the past few days makes me want to rewatch AGAIN. 

[Uncle JUICE]

YOu're right, that was without looking, but Ozymandias is somehow even BETTER than Tohajilee. That's unbelievable. Was it Ozymandias where Walt has the phone call with Skyler after he kidnaps the baby? That scene was unreal in the best way, just amazingly delicately layered. Cranston, playing Walt, playing Heisenberg for the last time, having to say terrible things to the mother of his children, to try and save her from the authorities, trying not to cry at what he'd done so they couldn't hear him.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Uncle JUICE

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

That was what I thought on my first watch. The Home Depot meeting was when he officially "broke bad". But I've since then come to think that it happened earlier - at Gretchen and Eliot's party. They offered to help him. I know it would have hurt his pride, immensely, but he could have taken care of everything. EVERYTHING. He chooses to decline and then goes to Jesse by the end of the episode - "Let's cook".

I do think at the very start he had good intentions, but I think things quickly get away from him. The irony is that, while he's dying, he feels more alive than ever. I think it quickly becomes about more than the money. If he had the money from Gretchen and Eliot, he wouldn't be able to justify continuing to cook. And he LIKES cooking. 

I also think that there might be some grey area between what WE see as the signs of him changing into Heisenberg and when HE ultimately realizes it. And I might concede that for HIM that moment is in the Home Depot parking lot. But, for me, I saw it much earlier. 

 

I hope people never stop talking about the show either! Just this thread being brought back to life the past few days makes me want to rewatch AGAIN. 

Gretchen and Eliot's party was second on my list, but it fits too much into the same category as Walter Jr's website: retconned in the writer's room (smoothly, but still serving the purpose of demonstrating his ego). Like they said "We need this character to have pride and ego, so we need opportunities to demonstrate them." I loved the Gretchen and Eliot party scene, too, in no way am I discounting its importance, but I think it was there that Walt decided not that he was Heisenberg, but that he had found something at which he was universally acknowledged as "the best" and his chemistry knowledge was why. It wasn't, at least I believe, the act of cooking crystal that he loved, it was the adulation, even in obscurity, that he and his mastery of chemistry had achieved for him. That's his ego. The Gretchen and Eliot thing, the Gray Matters thing, certainly stung, and certainly made him want to go back to cooking as much as he wanted to have the money (at that point he was, in his mind, a handful of months away from dying). It's certainly one of the seeds, but I still think the first glimpse of Heisenberg is in that parking lot. He grimaces, looks our from under his eyebrows and shoos a guy who looks like a criminal element, someone that a year before Walt would have looked down at his shoes and crossed the street to avoid, and says "Stay OUT of my territory." And holds the stare until the guy leaves. That's the moment he decides he's a kingpin and his "bestness" is not to be impinged. Ever. By anyone. 

He doesn't realize it until he plans Gail's death maybe. Or one might argue that so long as there's an outside force acting against Walt, whether it's Gus, Tuco, Salamanca, Jack, that he always sees himself as an underdog, fighting some version of "the Man." Jessie realizes it early in season 3: "I accept who I am. I'm the bad guy." It's a seminal and sad moment, but it's because Jesse's so much more honest than Walt. 

[ByTor]

4 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I wonder if this person felt the same way after the final three episodes of this show. Tohajilee, Granite State, Felina, just insane.

I really couldn't stand Marie when the series started.  I gradually warmed up to her, but then the incident with Hank & the cousins happened and at that point I absolutely loved her & never looked back.

[susannot]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

YOu're right, that was without looking, but Ozymandias is somehow even BETTER than Tohajilee. That's unbelievable. Was it Ozymandias where Walt has the phone call with Skyler after he kidnaps the baby? That scene was unreal in the best way, just amazingly delicately layered. Cranston, playing Walt, playing Heisenberg for the last time, having to say terrible things to the mother of his children, to try and save her from the authorities, trying not to cry at what he'd done so they couldn't hear him.

Yes, that scene was brilliantly played by Cranston and Gunn.  The slowly dawning expression of realization of what Walt was doing on Skyler's face was stunning.  I'm convinced that the episode Ozymandias won Anna Gunn her first Best Actress Emmy.   Going to watch those last 4 episodes again!

Edited January 5, 2017 by susannot

[Uncle JUICE]

I've only done the full rewatch twice  (in the middle of my third), but by the time you get to Ozymandias, which is  perfect name for that episode and arguably the series (though it would have been a spoiler), I get absolutely wrung the hell out by that four episode run. By the time you run into Tohajillee, Hank is the clear hero of the show, he had been since the first episode of that season (the showdown in his garage), and you know what his fate's got to be. It's wrenching. 

I should also add that it's only after he meets with the doctor and finds out that spot on his scan is not a huge tumor, but his prognosis is excellent, it's right then that he doesn't NEED Heisenberg. He doesn't NEED to cook. He's out of the game by then already, for the most part. The scene in the Home Depot parking lot is AFTER that meeting. Walter sees that junkie cockroach buying the wrong matches, making it so obvious what he's up to, and his gross associate,  their van in the parking lot. Walter's inner Daniel Plainview comes out: these guys are who I'm ceding my budding empire to? Their product is somehow going to replace MINE? No. Oh no, I don't think so. The cockroach guy is frantically explaining himself to the biker boss guy, looking at Walt...Walter would have walked to his car and left. Heisenberg declares his territory and a bad guy is born. I think the song that plays is DLZ by TV on the Radio (it's on a spotify Breaking Bad playlist, if you haven't done so, go listen to it, it's interesting!). 

Speaking of music, which is almost uniformly well chosen, it reminds me of something else about this show that goes entirely underrated. Nothing on television LOOKS like, or has ever looked like, Breaking Bad. Michael Slovis is the director of photography, and some of the things they do throughout the show with both the amazing NM scenery and the interiors is incredible. It says a lot that I know the DP's name when the only other one I can think of is Roger Deakins. Now Slovis directs stuff, including some game of thrones episodes, but the show has a look that is entirely unique (and I believe BCS has the same look). 

[Uncle JUICE]

14 hours ago, ByTor said:

I really couldn't stand Marie when the series started.  I gradually warmed up to her, but then the incident with Hank & the cousins happened and at that point I absolutely loved her & never looked back.

Marie was a kelpto, busybody, up tight purple fanatic, married to a blustery ex-jock with a somewhat adolescent sensibility. I warmed to Hank REALLY quickly, Marie lagged behind for me. It wasn't until One Minute that I let go of the stuff that made me mad about Marie, because her tireless support of Hank was really endearing. Hank, he won me over when he "intervened" with Walt Jr and his non0-existent pot problem. It's one of the funniest moments in a darkly funny series, when he brings Walt Jr to that gross motel where Wendy works, and he's seriously like "Does THIS look like someplace you want to end up?" Junior's all confused, he's like "No...? Are we still going to Cold Stone Creamery?"

[ghoulina]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Speaking of music, which is almost uniformly well chosen, it reminds me of something else about this show that goes entirely underrated. Nothing on television LOOKS like, or has ever looked like, Breaking Bad. Michael Slovis is the director of photography, and some of the things they do throughout the show with both the amazing NM scenery and the interiors is incredible.

I agree with this. Plot aside, it's just very beautiful to look at. I'm not a desert fan, but they make the place look absolutely stunning. I would say the only show that comes close is Better Call Saul. Same showrunners; I'm not sure if they use any of the other same behind the scenes people. But there have been some really beautiful shots on that show that, while different (the noir-esque scenes the parking garage come to mind), remind me a lot of BB. 

[Scout Finch]

On 12/30/2016 at 10:49 AM, ByTor said:

Here you go!

http://web.archive.org/web/20140413212054/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/forum/1173-breaking-bad-general-gabbery

It was amusing to read all the theories about what happened regarding the cold openings of the pink teddy bear. Not surprising that no one figured it out. I had no clue up until the last episode of the season. I never would have noticed the four titles that provided a clue until I read it later: Seven Thirty-Seven. Down. Over. ABQ.

I watched the first four seasons on Netflix, then a friend guided me in the direction of sites where I could, um, watch the first half of Season Five before it was out on DVD. The final half were the only episodes I watched as they aired. Having to wait a week for each one was agonizing! I cannot fathom what it was like for those who started watching the show early on. 

I wish there was a way to just erase my memories of having seen the show so I could take that very wild ride all over again. Not that I don't still love watching it--and every time it ends, I still think, Best. Show. Ever--but those OMG!!! moments where I was holding my breath and biting my hand in suspense were wonderful.

[Uncle JUICE]

Imagine those of us who watched the end of season 3 live (I watched the first two seasons on DVD before picking up S3 live)! I say it to anyone who hasn't seen Breaking Bad, that I'm jealous and I wish I could watch it from their perspective again. Still, even on rewatches, it never suffers. All of the other shows I'd put in the very next class of shows do: The Sopranos gets tiring in spots, especially late. Mad Men, same. Deadwood's third season is unsatisfying. The Wire's fifth season is pretty close to just plain dumb, which is a shame, I don't ever watch those episodes anymore. 

[DangerousMinds]

26 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

It was amusing to read all the theories about what happened regarding the cold openings of the pink teddy bear. Not surprising that no one figured it out. I had no clue up until the last episode of the season. I never would have noticed the four titles that provided a clue until I read it later: Seven Thirty-Seven. Down. Over. ABQ.

I watched the first four seasons on Netflix, then a friend guided me in the direction of sites where I could, um, watch the first half of Season Five before it was out on DVD. The final half were the only episodes I watched as they aired. Having to wait a week for each one was agonizing! I cannot fathom what it was like for those who started watching the show early on. 

I wish there was a way to just erase my memories of having seen the show so I could take that very wild ride all over again. Not that I don't still love watching it--and every time it ends, I still think, Best. Show. Ever--but those OMG!!! moments where I was holding my breath and biting my hand in suspense were wonderful.

I am sooo glad I waited and binged the whole series on Netflix. I can't imagine having had to wait a week (or months) between episodes. 

[Chaos Theory]

On 1/5/2017 at 1:35 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

I wonder if this person felt the same way after the final three episodes of this show. Tohajilee, Granite State, Felina, just insane.

To me, the last three episodes transcend television and  are an artistic achievement akin to Rubber Soul / Yesterday and Today / Revolver, or Off The Wall / Thriller / Bad. You simply can't believe the last one's better than the one before it. I remember being so, so sad when Tohajillee (sp) ends, and realizing that to a person, anyone who came into contact with Walter White once he had his cancer diagnosed had their lives negatively affected, and the closer you got to him, to his true love, his Baby Blue, the closer to total ruination those deleterious effects were. The way this show stuck its landing was just incredible. 

For the record I have a lot of sympathy for Skyler.  I am not the poster but I am one of the people who NEVER understood the Skyler hate.  I thought she was an incredibly intelligent and intriguing woman who got caught up in Walts bullshit because she underestimated his hubris.  His overriding motivation was his ego hers was protecting her family and even when breaking bad herself she still kept that motivation throughout.  She made the carwashes into a legitimate business but I think her most interesting moment was when she ordered Walt to kill Jesse and couldn't understand why a man who had already murdered so many people wouldn't kill this one person to protect his family.  I honestly think this moment is when Walt lost Skyler 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Uncle JUICE]

Same here, I didn't understand why people were like "She's such a bitch to Walt!" Walt's THE VILLAIN. She is his hostage, a prisoner. For pete's sake, how far did she have to be pushed in order to tell Walt to kill Jesse?? Think about what she'd been through! And for someone who was so smart and rational as Walt had been throughout the series, Skyler was 100% correct. "What's one more?" was absolutely immutable logic. And she only knew about what, Gale, Gus, Don Salamanca...she didn't know about the prisoners, or the Jane, or the people on that airplane who are dead because of Walt. In the end, what happens to Jesse is far worse than a quick clean death.  And not killing Jesse causes limitless pain for Marie, and in turn for Skyler and Walt Jr and Holly. 

My only problem with her was how she possibly thought she'd be able to launder money in that quantity through a car wash, or two car washes or ten. It's not like she didn't know how much Walt was generating. I don't recall exactly why Saul was not involved in the laundering at that point, either, but I'll get there. 

[ghoulina]

42 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I am sooo glad I waited and binged the whole series on Netflix. I can't imagine having had to wait a week (or months) between episodes. 

Same here. Although, I was never really planning to watch it. I'll admit to being a bit close minded, and was thinking - I am NOT going to like a show about a drug dealer. Forget that. But there was one person who recommended it to me, a person who's tastes were very similar to my own, so I finally gave in. Thankfully it was after the series had ended and I was able to binge watch the entire thing. On the one hand you miss the discussions with those who are in the thick of it with you. But this show would have been so hard to wait between episodes. And I agree with the poster that said I don't get sick of it on rewatch. 

 

39 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

 

Same here, I didn't understand why people were like "She's such a bitch to Walt!" Walt's THE VILLAIN.

 

Oh amen. I do not get the Skyler hate either. I would see people (mainly referring to earlier episodes) saying things like - "He's just trying to help his family! Why does she have to nag him so much?" She didn't KNOW what he was doing. I'm not saying she would have approved of him manufacturing meth to offset his death. But she didn't have a clue why he was always gone and had two phones and kept lying to her. I'd be fucking pissed if my husband was acting like that too. Skyler put up with a lot shit from Walt. She certainly wasn't perfect, but I understood her and empathized with her a lot. 

She could have put more effort into his birthday handjob, though. 

[Uncle JUICE]

7 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Oh amen. I do not get the Skyler hate either. I would see people (mainly referring to earlier episodes) saying things like - "He's just trying to help his family! Why does she have to nag him so much?" She didn't KNOW what he was doing. I'm not saying she would have approved of him manufacturing meth to offset his death. But she didn't have a clue why he was always gone and had two phones and kept lying to her. I'd be fucking pissed if my husband was acting like that too. Skyler put up with a lot shit from Walt. She certainly wasn't perfect, but I understood her and empathized with her a lot. 

She could have put more effort into his birthday handjob, though. 

Ugh, totally agree, but (a) who gets or gives a birthday handjob and (b) that scene was clunky with the ebay bidding thing. Hokey, but forgivable in the pilot. Your other paragraph reminded me of the tremendous ending to ABQ (I think, without looking, this was the season finale of S2), when Walt comes home and Skyler is alone, and lays it all out for Walt, how she figured him out, that whatever he was up to (and she knew it wasn't an affair because she called Gretchen, she talked to his mother, etc) was terrible, and that she was to the point where she didn't even WANT to know. She had to portray fear, barely controlled rage, and calm, rational intelligence while recounting the sequence of events and evidence that brought her character to that point.  How she avoided winning an emmy for that scene is beyond me. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Uncle JUICE

[ghoulina]

5 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Ugh, totally agree, but (a) who gets or gives a birthday handjob and (b) that scene was clunky with the ebay bidding thing. Hokey, but forgivable in the pilot.

LOL, yea, it was totally awkward. But I thought it was to make a point about Walt's life in general, just how lame uneventful it was. He can't even get legit sex on his birthday! No wonder the drug making world appeals to him so much. I'm not saying *I* would see it that way. Some of us are perfectly happy with a "boring" life. Walt was playing the part, but it really wasn't good enough for him. 

[Uncle JUICE]

See, I don't think boredom was Walt's driver. He's a chemist: he liked stability :). I maintain that his Heisenbergness is entirely ego driven once the cancer is in remission, and the thrill of it, the "aliveness" of it, only becomes the primary driver afterwards. He doesn't take any delight in being "alive" in that way until immediately after he gets the money from Tuco, AFTER blowing up the guy's office. That's the first moment I remember him seeming like he enjoyed the adrenaline side of things. I think it's in S2 where has sex with Skyler right after a school board meeting (the one where they arrest Mr. Archuleta for possession on school property of a joint in his car). She asks, immediately after, "why was that so good" and Walt responds "Because it was illegal."

[Chaos Theory]

It's funny Breaking Bad ended in 2013 and I still remember the basic plot of the show.  There are details I forget or order I mistake but I remember the show.  I haven't really rewatched since then but I plan to and yet I always find something else to watch anyway.  

Unpopular opinion:  The character I grew to dislike was Jesse.  I liked him in the beginning but I wouldn't have minded if toward the end he had been the one to get killed off.  I never bought that the show was some sort of heroes journey for him.  Honestly I found him whiney and annoying towards the end. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[ByTor]

10 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Unpopular opinion:  The character I grew to dislike was Jesse.  I liked him in the beginning but I wouldn't have minded if toward the end he had been the one to get killed off.  I never bought that the show was some sort of heroes journey for him.  Honestly I found him whiney and annoying towards the end. 

I liked Jesse the whole way through when I saw the series the 1st time, even the 2nd time, but on my 3rd rewatch yeah, I just wanted him to go away, to the point where every "bitch" worked my last nerve.

ETA: I also completely understand the Skylar hate because I couldn't stand her.  She's a passive-aggressive, bossy know-it-all.  Yes, she had every right to be a bitch to Walt, but I'm talking about her personality that was established right in the beginning.  I don't think she was a brilliant as she thought she was, otherwise she never would have thought you could launder millions upon millions of dollars through a car wash (although Saul's idea of go carts wasn't much better).  She was a nasty piece of work to her sister...instead of worrying about why Marie felt the need to shoplift, she refused to speak to Marie and clomped around with her demanding "apologize" order.  I hated the dramatic way that she threw Walt out of the house...I'm going away so you can move out, I even packed your stuff.  All she had to do was tell him what she knew (she really a great job dressing him down, I'll give her that, he did deserve it) and tell him to leave or she'll call the police.  I know, Walt said if she did that then Flynn would know everything, but I would guess if she called his bluff he'd back down fast, because by that point she just found out so she would not have been an accessory.  That being said, I did think Anna Gunn was fabulous in the role, and what I do not get is the hate directed at her.

Edited January 6, 2017 by ByTor

[Uncle JUICE]

Also was not a fan of the overuse of "bitch", to me it was grating and seemed unnatural to the character, particularly S3 and above Jesse. it's something an adolescent would say, but I think all of that adolescence should have disappeared after his rehab stint, or after having been directly involved in Gale's murder.