Season 5 (A & B) Discussion

[ketose]

On 1/27/2017 at 7:37 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

While he was no doubt annoyed by G&E that only shows more how Walt was suppressing his ego.  He was willing to let them (force them actually) be Walt Jr's heroes and benafactors.  All he cared about was getting his family the money.  He was ready to turn himself in because before seeing G&E he had given up all hope of ever getting any money to his family after Jr. rebuffed him on the phone.

This was a huge departure from his earlier attitude when he refused their money and was disgusted by the idea that Walt Jr thought a bunch of strangers on his webpage were donating all the drug money he earned.

I don't know how much Walt suppressed his ego. It was pretty much established that if Walt died in the cabin, the guy who brought him supplies every month was going to take the cash. His shady lawyer was gone, he knew that Mike had no luck hiding money. This plan had the benefit of proving he was smarter than Flynn, Mike, the Schwartz's and the government. That's quite an ego boost.

On top of that, Walt also took that trip to take out Lydia for messing with his family in a way that she knew was because of him. His last stop was wiping out the skinheads who took his money, killed Hank and ruined any chance Walt had for being forgiven by anyone he knew. The money was merely the justification for his selfish actions the whole time. If it were just about money, he would have stopped after Gus died.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 hours ago, ketose said:

I don't know how much Walt suppressed his ego. It was pretty much established that if Walt died in the cabin, the guy who brought him supplies every month was going to take the cash. His shady lawyer was gone, he knew that Mike had no luck hiding money. This plan had the benefit of proving he was smarter than Flynn, Mike, the Schwartz's and the government. That's quite an ego boost.

On top of that, Walt also took that trip to take out Lydia for messing with his family in a way that she knew was because of him. His last stop was wiping out the skinheads who took his money, killed Hank and ruined any chance Walt had for being forgiven by anyone he knew. The money was merely the justification for his selfish actions the whole time. If it were just about money, he would have stopped after Gus died.

What I meant was at the very end Walt started to get his ego under control.  He was willing to let Walt Jr. think Gretchen & Elliot were his generous benafactors.  He also allowed himself to look pathetic in front of Lydia, Todd and the Nazis, in order to take them out.  from  It was way too late, of course, but he accomplished his mission and salvaged something.

As for when he should have quit, you could argue that he still needed money after he killed Fring.  The absolute no brainer time to quit was when he was offered the $5 million buyout.  From that point on, he couldn't make any sort of claim that he was doing it "for his family." 

[ByTor]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:26 PM, ketose said:

If it were just about money, he would have stopped after Gus died.

Someone at work who recently binged the series said he thinks this is where BB should have ended.  Needless to say...disagree! :)

[ghoulina]

No way. This is one of the few shows that was practically perfect from start to end. It was not a slave to the ratings, dragging shit out when it was long past its prime. It seemed, to me, that the showrunners had a clear start-to-finish concept in mind from day one and they followed through. I really have no complaints about the way this show as done. None. 

[Uncle JUICE]

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

No way. This is one of the few shows that was practically perfect from start to end. It was not a slave to the ratings, dragging shit out when it was long past its prime. It seemed, to me, that the showrunners had a clear start-to-finish concept in mind from day one and they followed through. I really have no complaints about the way this show as done. None. 

COuldn't agree more, this is one of two main distinguishing between this show and every other show in The Pantheon (Sopranos, Mad Men, The Wire, etc). Where those shows are great, the reason this show is better: there is at least evidence of a start to finish end game. I'm not sure if there was or wasn't, it's actually more impressive if there wasn't. The other distinguishing factor is that it was never afraid to blow up major parts of its premise, but I think I already spoke about that. It's the anti_Dexter. 

[Christina]

That is what happens when the television stations allow the showrunners to do their jobs based on their visions. The Americans is another one where the showrunners said, "We need this many episodes" and FX said okay and kept their fingers out of the cookie jar. I don't know why they like to get involved and shift episodes around, tell the showrunners they want to keep an actor that doesn't fit in like in UnReal or decide they don't like the path a show is taking. They pick up the series based on the showrunner's plans, then sabotage them.

[Uncle JUICE]

On 2/18/2017 at 11:46 PM, Christina said:

That is what happens when the television stations allow the showrunners to do their jobs based on their visions. The Americans is another one where the showrunners said, "We need this many episodes" and FX said okay and kept their fingers out of the cookie jar. I don't know why they like to get involved and shift episodes around, tell the showrunners they want to keep an actor that doesn't fit in like in UnReal or decide they don't like the path a show is taking. They pick up the series based on the showrunner's plans, then sabotage them.

I thought I was the only one left watching this show. Can't wait till it returns!

[kieyra]

Rewatch. Just a tiny, tiny observation.

There's a scene after the Nazis wipe out Declan's competing crew. Todd and his uncle and some other skeevy nazi are eating in a diner while they talk important man-crime plans. They have a cute young waitress. After she drops off the check and walks away, there's an uncomfortably long take of the uncle and rando nazi staring after the waitress, looking like they are just barely keeping themselves from sexually assaulting her on the spot. They don't make any piggish commentary, it's just the work the two actors did with their faces; I very much felt the scene was screaming that they'd rape her if they had five minutes to spare. 

It's also possible that the Handmaid's Tale has just made me feel unsafe for the rest of my life. 

[kieyra]

Wow,  I had completely forgotten that Walt tried to hire the nazis to kill Jesse. 

It's amazing how the writers made people root for this guy.

(Had also forgotten a couple of the rapey scenes with Skyler.

[Uncle JUICE]

On 6/10/2017 at 9:34 PM, kieyra said:

Wow,  I had completely forgotten that Walt tried to hire the nazis to kill Jesse. 

It's amazing how the writers made people root for this guy.

(Had also forgotten a couple of the rapey scenes with Skyler.

They give Walter one tiny bit of remove, at least in Walter's mind, from the level of reprehensible that decision is: the scene in the hotel with Skyler. She's being a pragmatist and pointing out to Walter the reality of his hypocrisy as it comes to Jesse when she closes with "What's one more?" His whole thing about doing all of this for his family is bullshit if he doesn't eradicate the most immediate threat, a threat who's gotten as close as any other if not closer to actually harming them (he was standing IN THEIR HOUSE with a gas can...only the twins came as close). Skyler was the one thinking clearly and she didn't even know the extent of Walt's body count (the plane, crazy 8, the two gangsters he killed for jesse, Gus's henchmen, all of those folks she had NO idea about): if you killed Gale, and Gus, and destroyed her relationship with her entire family, why would leaving Jessie alive make any sense? It seems likely that Walt credited Jessie's intransigence at leaving ABQ and Skyler's plea for him to protect his family in equal measure when it came to killing Jessie. He very unlikely assigned himself ANY blame for the decision. 

[Chaos Theory]

On 6/13/2017 at 11:38 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

They give Walter one tiny bit of remove, at least in Walter's mind, from the level of reprehensible that decision is: the scene in the hotel with Skyler. She's being a pragmatist and pointing out to Walter the reality of his hypocrisy as it comes to Jesse when she closes with "What's one more?" His whole thing about doing all of this for his family is bullshit if he doesn't eradicate the most immediate threat, a threat who's gotten as close as any other if not closer to actually harming them (he was standing IN THEIR HOUSE with a gas can...only the twins came as close). Skyler was the one thinking clearly and she didn't even know the extent of Walt's body count (the plane, crazy 8, the two gangsters he killed for jesse, Gus's henchmen, all of those folks she had NO idea about): if you killed Gale, and Gus, and destroyed her relationship with her entire family, why would leaving Jessie alive make any sense? It seems likely that Walt credited Jessie's intransigence at leaving ABQ and Skyler's plea for him to protect his family in equal measure when it came to killing Jessie. He very unlikely assigned himself ANY blame for the decision. 

I loved that scene with Skyler.  It was one of my favorite Skyler scenes before the show reversed itself and made Skyler goodish (on a relative scale)   again.  

[Uncle JUICE]

28 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I loved that scene with Skyler.  It was one of my favorite Skyler scenes before the show reversed itself and made Skyler goodish (on a relative scale)   again.  

I think I said it in the Skyler thread, but she got a really bum rap from people who were like "She's just being a bitch! Can't she be cool?!?" I don't think she did anything that was completely unjustifiable internally. She wasn't nice to Walt...but she also didn't turn him in the second he told her. And it isn't like Walt was the nicest guy, if you have rewatched the show, it's pretty clear Walt is consistently intimidating her most of the time. 

[ghoulina]

Yea, I never understood all the Skyler hate among fans. I didn't love every single thing she did, but most of the time I would have taken her side over Walt's. In the early seasons people would complain, "All she does is bitch! He's trying to provide for his family". Ummmmm.....yea, she doesn't even KNOW that. All she knows is that her normally present and attentive husband is going missing for hours at a time and obviously lying about something. I'd be pissed too. 

[ketose]

Part of the problem is that Skyler reacted like a normal person would. She wavered and helped him launder money, but she also saw that Walt was taking chances even though he had opportunities to get out relatively clean. For the viewer, Walt was the video game character with all the cheat codes. He did things that should have gotten him arrested or killed many times and escaped, more by dumb luck than brainpower. If Skyler knew she was a supporting character in Walt's story, she might have been more inclined to let him do what he wanted.

[qtpye]

On 6/15/2017 at 1:23 PM, ghoulina said:

Yea, I never understood all the Skyler hate among fans. I didn't love every single thing she did, but most of the time I would have taken her side over Walt's. In the early seasons people would complain, "All she does is bitch! He's trying to provide for his family". Ummmmm.....yea, she doesn't even KNOW that. All she knows is that her normally present and attentive husband is going missing for hours at a time and obviously lying about something. I'd be pissed too. 

 

On 6/27/2017 at 7:15 PM, ketose said:

Part of the problem is that Skyler reacted like a normal person would. She wavered and helped him launder money, but she also saw that Walt was taking chances even though he had opportunities to get out relatively clean. For the viewer, Walt was the video game character with all the cheat codes. He did things that should have gotten him arrested or killed many times and escaped, more by dumb luck than brainpower. If Skyler knew she was a supporting character in Walt's story, she might have been more inclined to let him do what he wanted.

I think Gilligan is full of it when it comes to Skylar.  He obviously has the talent to create awesome and complex female characters.  He probably purposely wrote Skylar unlikable, so people would be on Walter's side in the beginning.  She was never a bad as Walter, but was not a likable in her own right.  She shares the ego of her husband in often thinking she is the smartest in the room and often would not listen to other people's warnings.

That being said, I would not wish her life and fate on anybody.  What Walt did to her was truly horrible.

[Uncle JUICE]

21 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

I think Gilligan is full of it when it comes to Skylar.  He obviously has the talent to create awesome and complex female characters.  He probably purposely wrote Skylar unlikable, so people would be on Walter's side in the beginning.  She was never a bad as Walter, but was not a likable in her own right.  She shares the ego of her husband in often thinking she is the smartest in the room and often would not listen to other people's warnings.

That being said, I would not wish her life and fate on anybody.  What Walt did to her was truly horrible.

I think unlikable is probably too strong a word, but certainly she wasn't warm and fuzzy. One of the first scenes she has is giving her husband a birthday hand job while she sells something on ebay. Anyone watching that would have immediately been biased toward Walt's perspective, how much of his life must be drudgery if ebay is distracting his wife from giving him a tuggy. I mean it's his birthday, if a guy can't get a beejer on his birthday, you probably need to talk to someone :). 

[Nozycat]

I found her unlikable exactly from that scene on.  It showed me how little she thought of him and expected him to be grateful for a minimum of effort on her part, got offended when he didn't respond despite her being so 'generous'. Ugh.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Nozycat

[possibilities]

I'm hung up on Huell being in that room and no one knows he's there except Hank and Gomey, who are dead. Saul says he's gone missing, so apparently he never got out?

[Absurda]

I read the b-day had job not as an uncaring wife but really as an old married couple with a little of the romance gone.  Clearly they still had a fairly active sex life since she was carrying his baby at the time.  Now that I'm done, here are my final thoughts:

The Nazis:

I found these antagonists completely underwhelming after the brilliant awesomeness that was Gus Fring.  Gus had depth, complexity and mystery.  He was a stone-cold killer, someone who could wait decades for final revenge, a solid business man and intelligent enough to be 10 steps ahead of everyone most of the time.  By comparison, these guys were just one dimensional and cartoonish.

Jesse:

I'm very glad he got out and was finally calling Walt on his manipulative shit at the end.  I just hope he got to live a long and happy life.  He was one of my favorite characters.

Grey Matter:

We don't actually know what happened and how much of Walt's research was necessary for their success.  He acts like they screwed him over and has a life-long chip on his shoulder over it (he tells Jesse that he checks the stock price everyday when they're talking about the $5M buy out).  Gretchen argues that she has a very different memory about how it all went down.  I don't think we can really take Walt's word here that they somehow did him wrong.  I think they must have treated him perfectly fairly if they were still friendly after so many years.  This is why I don't like what he did to them with the trust for Walt Jr. (um what about Holly and Skylar??  or is it just the oldest male who gets everything) and the threat of assassins.

Skylar:

I found her annoying in the beginning with her constant harping about Walt talking to her after his diagnosis.  As someone who does not like to talk about emotions but would rather be left alone to sort them out/deal with them on my own, I read this as her focusing more on her needs than his.  She needed to talk about everything and didn't both to ask what he needed.  I found her really annoying in season 3 when it was all carwash all the time.  Every time we heard from her she was going on about the carwash.  It was just annoying to me.  She then had me in her corner at the beginning of Season 5 where she was terrified of Walt but couldn't get him out of the house or her bed.  She's terrified, sending her kids away and crying silently while he's snuggled up with her thinking they're going to have sexy fun times now.  This is when Skylar had me 100% in her corner and rooting for her completely.  Then she helped Walt make that horrific "confession" pining everything on Hank.  That's where she lost me for good.  That's the point where she deserves how she ends up, in my mind.

Walt's Ego:

We see flashbacks (such as house buying) that shows Walt had a huge ego.  I don't buy his going into Meth was ever to make sure his family would be provided for.  He could have had that with Gretchen and Elliot's offers.  He went into meth dealing so that HE was the one who provided for his family, that HE was the hero and big man who did it all for them.  It was about his legacy.  It was never, really, about his family.  I don't think he was ever okay with his life, he'd just been sleep walking for a while and the cancer diagnosis woke him up.  I suspect, even if he'd been successful or stayed with Grey Matter it never would have been enough.  He never would have been satisfied.  He might not have sold meth, but he would always find someone else to compare himself with and find some way of being dissatisfied with what he had.

Saul Goodman:

I'm really happy Saul got out.  Walter's attempt to bully Saul into going into hiding with him was just gross.  Dude, do you not realize you have no leverage there and are completely powerless and at the mercy of others?  All you have is a barrel full of money, but the first play is an attempt at fear and intimidation?  Did he learn nothing from Gus? 

The ending:

Quote

What really struck me is your last paragraph, it's the takeaway I got from the entire series: no one who came into contact with Walt got out clean, in fact it was just varying degrees of life changing misery the closer you got to him. Hank's dead. Marie's a widow. Skyler's unemployable and under monitor by the law. Junior is devastated and reviles even the memory of his father (this convinced Walt to give up in Granite State right before he sees the solution on tv). Jesse is severely damaged, has no one who cares about him, and is a fugitive from justice. Saul runs a Cinnabon. Gus is dead. Salamanca is dead. Gale is dead. No one got a happy ending, maybe Badger and Skinny Pete?

And this is why I found the end unsatisfying.  It seems to me that Walt got off easy.  He never really paid for any of what he did nor did he even take any responsibility for any of it.  Sure, he told Sky he did it because he liked it, but he never seemed to realize that it was his decisions and his actions that got them all in that mess.  He constantly seemed to think that he was the victim in everything and not an active participant in everyone's fate (kinda like Cercei Lannister in GOT in that way).  I don't consider hiding away in NH to be really paying the piper.  He just took the easy way out and left everyone else to deal with the consequences of his actions.  In the end he got what he wanted:  he left a bucket load of money to his son and died without facing the repercussions of what he did.  He just let everyone else do that for him.  I have no sympathy or pity for Walt or his end.  None at all.

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, Absurda said:

I found these antagonists completely underwhelming after the brilliant awesomeness that was Gus Fring.  Gus had depth, complexity and mystery.  He was a stone-cold killer, someone who could wait decades for final revenge, a solid business man and intelligent enough to be 10 steps ahead of everyone most of the time.  By comparison, these guys were just one dimensional and cartoonish.

I thought these guys worked, because it showed just how far gone Walt was in the criminal world at that point. How desperate he became. Gus was a criminal you wanted to work with. He was professional. He was reasonable. You could talk to him, work things out. 

The Nazis were just reactionary and unpredictable as hell. They didn't have the same standards as Gus. The repercussions once Walt started dealing with them were far, far worse. They weren't as fun to watch as the villain Gus was, but I think their addition was good at showing just how far Walt was willing to go. 

[qtpye]

16 hours ago, Absurda said:

I read the b-day had job not as an uncaring wife but really as an old married couple with a little of the romance gone.  Clearly they still had a fairly active sex life since she was carrying his baby at the time.  Now that I'm done, here are my final thoughts:

The Nazis:

I found these antagonists completely underwhelming after the brilliant awesomeness that was Gus Fring.  Gus had depth, complexity and mystery.  He was a stone-cold killer, someone who could wait decades for final revenge, a solid business man and intelligent enough to be 10 steps ahead of everyone most of the time.  By comparison, these guys were just one dimensional and cartoonish.

Jesse:

I'm very glad he got out and was finally calling Walt on his manipulative shit at the end.  I just hope he got to live a long and happy life.  He was one of my favorite characters.

Grey Matter:

We don't actually know what happened and how much of Walt's research was necessary for their success.  He acts like they screwed him over and has a life-long chip on his shoulder over it (he tells Jesse that he checks the stock price everyday when they're talking about the $5M buy out).  Gretchen argues that she has a very different memory about how it all went down.  I don't think we can really take Walt's word here that they somehow did him wrong.  I think they must have treated him perfectly fairly if they were still friendly after so many years.  This is why I don't like what he did to them with the trust for Walt Jr. (um what about Holly and Skylar??  or is it just the oldest male who gets everything) and the threat of assassins.

Skylar:

I found her annoying in the beginning with her constant harping about Walt talking to her after his diagnosis.  As someone who does not like to talk about emotions but would rather be left alone to sort them out/deal with them on my own, I read this as her focusing more on her needs than his.  She needed to talk about everything and didn't both to ask what he needed.  I found her really annoying in season 3 when it was all carwash all the time.  Every time we heard from her she was going on about the carwash.  It was just annoying to me.  She then had me in her corner at the beginning of Season 5 where she was terrified of Walt but couldn't get him out of the house or her bed.  She's terrified, sending her kids away and crying silently while he's snuggled up with her thinking they're going to have sexy fun times now.  This is when Skylar had me 100% in her corner and rooting for her completely.  Then she helped Walt make that horrific "confession" pining everything on Hank.  That's where she lost me for good.  That's the point where she deserves how she ends up, in my mind.

Walt's Ego:

We see flashbacks (such as house buying) that shows Walt had a huge ego.  I don't buy his going into Meth was ever to make sure his family would be provided for.  He could have had that with Gretchen and Elliot's offers.  He went into meth dealing so that HE was the one who provided for his family, that HE was the hero and big man who did it all for them.  It was about his legacy.  It was never, really, about his family.  I don't think he was ever okay with his life, he'd just been sleep walking for a while and the cancer diagnosis woke him up.  I suspect, even if he'd been successful or stayed with Grey Matter it never would have been enough.  He never would have been satisfied.  He might not have sold meth, but he would always find someone else to compare himself with and find some way of being dissatisfied with what he had.

Saul Goodman:

I'm really happy Saul got out.  Walter's attempt to bully Saul into going into hiding with him was just gross.  Dude, do you not realize you have no leverage there and are completely powerless and at the mercy of others?  All you have is a barrel full of money, but the first play is an attempt at fear and intimidation?  Did he learn nothing from Gus? 

The ending:

And this is why I found the end unsatisfying.  It seems to me that Walt got off easy.  He never really paid for any of what he did nor did he even take any responsibility for any of it.  Sure, he told Sky he did it because he liked it, but he never seemed to realize that it was his decisions and his actions that got them all in that mess.  He constantly seemed to think that he was the victim in everything and not an active participant in everyone's fate (kinda like Cercei Lannister in GOT in that way).  I don't consider hiding away in NH to be really paying the piper.  He just took the easy way out and left everyone else to deal with the consequences of his actions.  In the end he got what he wanted:  he left a bucket load of money to his son and died without facing the repercussions of what he did.  He just let everyone else do that for him.  I have no sympathy or pity for Walt or his end.  None at all.

Fantastic post.

I agree about Skylar.  I know she was in an impossible situation, however, she knew the consequences once she was in.  She was putting her innocent children in danger.

I never totally believed Walt's story about Gretchen and Elliot stealing his ideas.  I think Walt smugly signed away his rights, thinking that:

1. The company will quickly go under without his brilliance.

2. His genius will let him go on to bigger and better things.

It was a giant blow to his ego that:

1.  Without him the company achieved a level of success beyond his wildest dreams.

2. Left to his own devices his his life was (by his standards) a total failure.  I qualify this, because in truth, he was a well respected teacher and beloved husband and father with many friends.  Sure, he had not quite lived up to his potential as a brilliant Cal Tech grade scientist, but it was by most accounts a nice life.

It was these two blows that sent him into the shock that had him sleep walking through life and this is where we find him the first season.

When he gives Jessie all of his savings to buy the methabago, he tells him that he is "awake" for the first time in a long time.

People have referenced the hand job, I hated all the sex scenes between the Whites.  Both actors are attractive and I had no doubt Skylar and Walt loved each other.  However, all their sex scenes made me uncomfortable and I am not a prude.

[qtpye]

I also wanted to add my two cents on the Nazi gang.  They were not needed, but I realize from Preacher, that a show without a baddie for the hero to overcome, becomes pretty aimless.  I also think that Uncle Jack was a much better father figure to Todd than Walt was to Jessie, even with Jack being the scum of the earth.

[Uncle JUICE]

17 hours ago, Absurda said:

 

The Nazis:

I found these antagonists completely underwhelming after the brilliant awesomeness that was Gus Fring.  Gus had depth, complexity and mystery.  He was a stone-cold killer, someone who could wait decades for final revenge, a solid business man and intelligent enough to be 10 steps ahead of everyone most of the time.  By comparison, these guys were just one dimensional and cartoonish.

Jesse:

I'm very glad he got out and was finally calling Walt on his manipulative shit at the end.  I just hope he got to live a long and happy life.  He was one of my favorite characters.

Walt's Ego:

We see flashbacks (such as house buying) that shows Walt had a huge ego.  I don't buy his going into Meth was ever to make sure his family would be provided for.  He could have had that with Gretchen and Elliot's offers.  He went into meth dealing so that HE was the one who provided for his family, that HE was the hero and big man who did it all for them.  It was about his legacy.  It was never, really, about his family.  I don't think he was ever okay with his life, he'd just been sleep walking for a while and the cancer diagnosis woke him up.  I suspect, even if he'd been successful or stayed with Grey Matter it never would have been enough.  He never would have been satisfied.  He might not have sold meth, but he would always find someone else to compare himself with and find some way of being dissatisfied with what he had.

The ending:

And this is why I found the end unsatisfying.  It seems to me that Walt got off easy.  He never really paid for any of what he did nor did he even take any responsibility for any of it.  Sure, he told Sky he did it because he liked it, but he never seemed to realize that it was his decisions and his actions that got them all in that mess.  He constantly seemed to think that he was the victim in everything and not an active participant in everyone's fate (kinda like Cercei Lannister in GOT in that way).  I don't consider hiding away in NH to be really paying the piper.  He just took the easy way out and left everyone else to deal with the consequences of his actions.  In the end he got what he wanted:  he left a bucket load of money to his son and died without facing the repercussions of what he did.  He just let everyone else do that for him.  I have no sympathy or pity for Walt or his end.  None at all.

A lot of people complained that Walt got off easy, and perhaps not surprisingly, I disagree. Remember when he got into all this mess, he was trying to build something for his family. He didn't start out saying "I want to be the best meth chemist in history, with an empire than spans the entire globe!" He started out with a number and a problem, and worked itbest he could, then got hooked on the power and the money. In the end, he absolutely takes responsibility (telling Skyler I did this for me), and the price is literally everything he ever wanted to save, when he'd first started out. His family is living exactly the life he did NOT want for them, except it was not due to his illness, it was due to his CHOICES. People focus on the idea that he got killed almost as collateral damage in his improbable plan, and he didn't go to prison or something more drastic, but if he'd been arrested, he'd have likely refused further medical treatment far before he ever say a courtroom. I think the price he paid was appropriate: a wife and grown son who reviles him, a daughter who'll never know him because neither the wife nor the brother will ever speak of him (and what she finds out down the road will in no way lionize this father figure she never had)...

I kind of see your concern on the Nazi thing: definitely a step down from the Fring Pollos Hermanos empire as far as quality of partners go. But again, this is who is in the meth business most of the time, not the Gus Frings of the world. The Nazis are the price Walter pays for not seeing things from Gus's perspective. One might make the argument that if Jesse never met Andrea, Gus and Walt and Jesse would have all been a happy business partnership indefinitely. It's only because Andrea's brother gets killed in "the game" that Jesse starts bucking for revenge, which goes against the meeting Fring has, which leads to Walt running over two of Fring's men, Jesse on the lam, Gale being killed...if he'd never met Andrea (which goes back to if he'd never wanted to sell his own meth on the sly, against Walter's advice, remember it was Andrea's brother who killed Jesse's underling Combo), and everything else remains the same? Some ten year old is killed in gang/drug related violence, Jesse sees it on the news, and doesn't connect to it in any meaningful way. He certainly doesn't seek retribution ahead of the millions of dollars in front of him. Still, if Walt had just said "Yeah, Jesse's a major liability to a multi million dollar corporation, and against my advice, he's making dangerous decisions. He has to go." If that'd happened, then there's no Nazis. Instead, Walt took a step he wasn't fully ready to take (killing Gus with no infrastructure backup in place...if he'd done some dilligence to this end he'd have never wanted to leave Gus), and as a result, he ended up having to work with the lowest quality people in the business. Blunt instruments as opposed to basically a Distribution Doctor. 

And I hate to say it, no chance Jesse has a long or happy life. That dude got out of that slave pit FUCKED UP. He was a prisoner and a slave for at least six months, presumed dead most likely, he's going to have major mental trauma. If he's not apprehended, he's got no support system, no money access, and will have to start with a new identity. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Uncle JUICE

[ghoulina]

27 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think the price he paid was appropriate: a wife and grown son who reviles him, a daughter who'll never know him because neither the wife nor the brother will ever speak of him (and what she finds out down the road will in no way lionize this father figure she never had)...

Yea, I think this is actually the worst punishment for Walt. Sure, NH wasn't that bad. But he knew his family wanted nothing to do with him. Junior yelled at him and made it clear just how "done" he was. Yes, Walt started out trying to provide for his family in the event of his death. But Walt, in my eyes, has always been about the ego. Prison would have been a dream for him. He probably would have been very respected - not only for his meth, but for taking down someone like Gus. To have to go be a recluse, who's hated by everyone in his life - that was the biggest blow he could have received. 

That being said, even if I DID subscribe to the idea that Walt got off easy....it wouldn't bother me. I don't mean that it wouldn't bother me because I loved Walt and didn't feel he DESERVED some horrible punishment. I mean, from a story telling perspective, it doesn't seem far off. A lot of "bad" people don't get the punishment we think they deserve. There was plenty of "unfairness" in this story. Because that's life. One thing I really loved about this show was the realness. I found almost everything believable. 

I thought the ending fit. 

[Absurda]

Quote

Instead, Walt took a step he wasn't fully ready to take (killing Gus with no infrastructure backup in place...if he'd done some dilligence to this end he'd have never wanted to leave Gus), and as a result, he ended up having to work with the lowest quality people in the business. Blunt instruments as opposed to basically a Distribution Doctor. 

Walt actually didn't end up having to deal with these folks.  He went to them on purpose after he killed Mike to take care of the legacies.  He went back to them again to kill Jesse.  He was working with the guy out of Arizona to cook for him.  He didn't end up with the Nazi's, he sought them out.  I don't think he ever would have tried to build distribution or infrastructure after killing Gus.  He was never about doing that end of the business himself but always looked for a partner to do it.

I think you guys have talked me around on the Nazis as worthwhile villains. Just as vicious and violent as Tuco but not as insane.  

I didn't necessarily want Walt in prison, I don't think he would have made it with his cancer.  The destruction of his family and them hating him is punishment, I just wanted him to have to make an accounting of the things he's done.  Admit it all and come to realize the damage he's done beyond just his family.  Dirt Bike Boy's parents deserve that, Mike's granddaughter deserves that, Hank, Gomez (posthumously) and Marie deserve that.  But, I agree, this rarely happens in real life and sometimes people just never know what happened.

Quote

And I hate to say it, no chance Jesse has a long or happy life. That dude got out of that slave pit FUCKED UP. He was a prisoner and a slave for at least six months, presumed dead most likely, he's going to have major mental trauma. If he's not apprehended, he's got no support system, no money access, and will have to start with a new identity. 

Yeah, I know.  He's got no money, likely no ability to contact the vacuum guy even if he did have money, Saul is gone and he has a lot of trauma.  He's going to have a tough time.  I just don't want things to end badly for Jesse.  In my mind he goes back to his house (he should still own the house, I hope) hooks up with Badger and Skinny Pete (who are still clean and working the program), they help him get back on his feet, get a legit job and build a life.  Eventually he reconciles with his family.  He shouldn't have legal trouble because the only one watching him was Hank.  The DEA likely doesn't have much on him and wouldn't be looking at him any more.  At least, that's what I have in my mind but it would be a very un-Breaking Bad ending for a character!  No one gets a happy ending.

I should also mention how much I loved Jesse in the world's most awkward dinner with Skylar and Walt. 

[Uncle JUICE]

17 minutes ago, Absurda said:

 

I should also mention how much I loved Jesse in the world's most awkward dinner with Skylar and Walt. 

"This potato salad is the bomb, Mrs. White!"

 

"I bought it at Albertson's." --paraphrase. I love that scene, too. One of the advantages BB always has over pretenders like Ozark is that it always seasoned the grimness with a little humor. Almost always. I hate to tell showrunners, but the success of BB was NOT in how dark it was. It was character driven and impossibly tightly written. 

[ketose]

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

People have referenced the hand job, I hated all the sex scenes between the Whites.  Both actors are attractive and I had no doubt Skylar and Walt loved each other.  However, all their sex scenes made me uncomfortable and I am not a prude.

I think the sex stuff provided a window into Walt and Skyler's marriage. Skyler cheated because Walt was trapping her with his business. Walt never really had an interest in another woman, meth became his mistress. There was also the time when Skyler saw Walt dong whatever he needed to protect the family, which led to spontaneous sex which seemed to be the last break in a long dry spell.

Walt was very much a drama queen. He wanted danger and excitement. At some point, he saw the end of the line was being a high school teacher and decided it was that or blow up his whole world. The diagnosis already blew up his whole world, so it seems Walt decided to go out with the biggest bang possible.

[ByTor]

On 9/11/2017 at 5:32 PM, Absurda said:

Grey Matter:

We don't actually know what happened

I know the showrunners don't owe us explanations for everything, but Gray Matter is one thing I really really wish we got the entire scoop on!

On 9/12/2017 at 11:17 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

Remember when he got into all this mess, he was trying to build something for his family. He didn't start out saying "I want to be the best meth chemist in history, with an empire than spans the entire globe!" He started out with a number and a problem, and worked itbest he could, then got hooked on the power and the money

Exactly.

On 9/12/2017 at 11:17 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

Still, if Walt had just said "Yeah, Jesse's a major liability to a multi million dollar corporation, and against my advice, he's making dangerous decisions. He has to go." If that'd happened, then there's no Nazis.

This was the point in the series where Jesse really began to get on my nerves, I kind of wish Walt would have done something about him.  Oh, who am I kidding?  Yeah, he annoyed me, but I was still interested in what was going on with him & liked having him around.

On 9/12/2017 at 0:42 PM, Absurda said:

Walt actually didn't end up having to deal with these folks.  He went to them on purpose after he killed Mike to take care of the legacies. 

If only Walt knew what would transpire after killing Gus!

On 9/12/2017 at 1:00 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

"This potato salad is the bomb, Mrs. White!"

Not to be a jackass...it was green beans :)

[Uncle JUICE]

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

 

Not to be a jackass...it was green beans :)

 

Jackass ;-). I remembered it like two hours after I posted it...totally right :). I didn't correct it because I figured no one's reading. So glad that isn't the case!

[ByTor]

Just now, Uncle JUICE said:

Jackass ;-). I remembered it like two hours after I posted it...totally right :). I didn't correct it because I figured no one's reading. So glad that isn't the case!

Same!  I love talking about BB!

I always remember the green beans scene, BTW, because I like green beans :)

[Uncle JUICE]

8 minutes ago, ByTor said:

 

This was the point in the series where Jesse really began to get on my nerves, I kind of wish Walt would have done something about him.  Oh, who am I kidding?  Yeah, he annoyed me, but I was still interested in what was going on with him & liked having him around.

 

I think part of why they kept having Walt keep Jesse around was because it served both sides of the coin: keeping him alive even when it didn't make any business sense helped Walt, and by extension the viewer, hang on to shreds of Walt's humanity, to not realize what a villain he'd become. It's one of the reasons I loved the scene in the hotel after Jesse doused their house with gasoline, where Skyler gives the "what's one more" speech: she sees things really clearly here. And it also gives Walt some dog to kick a little bit when the show needed to vilify the character, to make him seem so manipulative, so evil.

You know what's a scene that doesn't get enough talk? The scene with Jesse, Gomez and hank where Jesse gets aggravated and says "Wait a minute...your plan...is to do HIS plan?" He then rants about how Walt is smarter, luckier, better than them and no matter what, he'd outsmart them, and Jesse'd end up dead.

[ByTor]

18 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

You know what's a scene that doesn't get enough talk? The scene with Jesse, Gomez and hank where Jesse gets aggravated and says "Wait a minute...your plan...is to do HIS plan?" He then rants about how Walt is smarter, luckier, better than them and no matter what, he'd outsmart them, and Jesse'd end up dead.

There was some great acting in that scene.  No surprise, I cannot recall a single bad actor on BB.  Even some of the throw-away parts...for example that convenience store girl who accepted meth from Jesse as payment when he had no cash, she was so good in her scene with Hank.

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, ByTor said:

There was some great acting in that scene.  No surprise, I cannot recall a single bad actor on BB.  Even some of the throw-away parts...for example that convenience store girl who accepted meth from Jesse as payment when he had no cash, she was so good in her scene with Hank.

Not a bad actor, but a strangely written role, one that sort of seemed from a different type of show, I can give you one of those: the junkyard owner who's also apparently an expert on the legal ins and outs of probable cause and vehicle classifications. That always bugged me. he shows up out of nowhere and is like "This is a domicile, not a vehicle, because it's not moving" and Hank isn't just like "fuck off, old guy, don't make me get a warrant to overturn this whole place for stolen vehicles."

[ByTor]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Not a bad actor, but a strangely written role, one that sort of seemed from a different type of show, I can give you one of those: the junkyard owner who's also apparently an expert on the legal ins and outs of probable cause and vehicle classifications. That always bugged me. he shows up out of nowhere and is like "This is a domicile, not a vehicle, because it's not moving" and Hank isn't just like "fuck off, old guy, don't make me get a warrant to overturn this whole place for stolen vehicles."

LOL I always assumed he was in trouble with the law so often that he learned the ins & outs :)

Edited September 13, 2017 by ByTor

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

I always remember the green beans scene, BTW, because I like green beans :)

I always remember the green beans scene, because I think - who the hell comments on green beans? Green beans are....green beans. I like them okay, but "the bomb"? Lol, I love this show. 

[ByTor]

3 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I always remember the green beans scene, because I think - who the hell comments on green beans? Green beans are....green beans. I like them okay, but "the bomb"? Lol, I love this show. 

LOL, I imagine a good yummy buttery sauce making them the bomb :)

[Uncle JUICE]

16 hours ago, ByTor said:

LOL, I imagine a good yummy buttery sauce making them the bomb :)

I pictured it more like the cold type of salad, red wine vinegar, red onions, maybe some tomatoes, but the beans in this particular case had that grayish green tinge because they'd been sitting in a vat at Albertson's for a couple of days. Skyler was absolutely not having it by this point. If I remember right, she poured one LARGE ass glass of that white wine, too. 

[qtpye]

16 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I always remember the green beans scene, because I think - who the hell comments on green beans? Green beans are....green beans. I like them okay, but "the bomb"? Lol, I love this show. 

 

16 hours ago, ByTor said:

LOL, I imagine a good yummy buttery sauce making them the bomb :)

They had the almond slivers in them, so hell yeah?

It was funny to see a little of that white upper middle class boy, who was probably told to mind his manners growing up, peak through in a speech pattern now littered with the word bitch.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

They had the almond slivers in them, so hell yeah?

Awww, there goes my fantasy, I'm allergic to almonds :(

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

If I remember right, she poured one LARGE ass glass of that white wine, too. 

Yes she did, and Marie always seemed to have a glass of white wine.  Maybe I'm thinking too deeply, but I always wondered with them driving home the "meth is bad" theme if this was a subtle dig that alcohol is also a drug.

[qtpye]

57 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Awww, there goes my fantasy, I'm allergic to almonds :(

Yes she did, and Marie always seemed to have a glass of white wine.  Maybe I'm thinking too deeply, but I always wondered with them driving home the "meth is bad" theme if this was a subtle dig that alcohol is also a drug.

I think it might have been how people self medicate to get away from their problems.

Poor Marie...she lost her beloved Hank, her relationship with her sister is gone, and she probably will not get to see her niece and nephew grow up.  Everything she held dear is gone.

[ByTor]

Just now, qtpye said:

I think it might have been how people self medicate to get away from their problems.

True!

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

Poor Marie

I could not stand Marie in the beginning, there was not a darn thing I found likable about her.  Then she grew on me when she was taking care of Hank & he was such a dick to her...there was a scene where she went off by herself to cry that really got to me.  From then on, Marie became my favorite.  I don't think my feelings for a character have ever turned around that dramatically.

[Uncle JUICE]

58 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I could not stand Marie in the beginning, there was not a darn thing I found likable about her.  Then she grew on me when she was taking care of Hank & he was such a dick to her...there was a scene where she went off by herself to cry that really got to me.  From then on, Marie became my favorite.  I don't think my feelings for a character have ever turned around that dramatically.

COuldn't agree more on Marie. She started out like this eccentric weirdo, obviously annoying at the shower in the pilot, the whole shoplifting thing, but when chips were down, Marie was a rock. THe scene where she and Hank watch the DVD together...you can see her remorse, her realization that she should have known the story was bullshit, but you can also immediately identify with her: she just wanted to help her husband and was willing to use any and all means available. When Hank realizes it, he's not even mad, it's more like he's disappointed. She's heartbroken, but in a "what did you want me to do?" sort of way. Outstanding writing for her as the series went on. 

[ByTor]

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

obviously annoying at the shower in the pilot, the whole shoplifting thing,

I loved, though, when she walked off wearing those new stolen heels & left her dirty sneakers behind, that saleswoman was an ass! :)

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, ByTor said:

I loved, though, when she walked off wearing those new stolen heels & left her dirty sneakers behind, that saleswoman was an ass! :)

I always loved how easily the lies came to Marie when she was stealing from people's homes, what a weirdo. A tiara?? Come on Marie. It's not even purple. Fuck that lady loved purple. 

[ByTor]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Fuck that lady loved purple. 

It's a shame there was no such thing as a purple Beetle :)

[Uncle JUICE]

I thought they actually had a purple PT Cruiser. Or maybe I like to imagine a scene before the series started where they were looking for a car, Marie WANTED a purple PT Cruiser, and Hank was like 'Marie, I'm sorry, but I"m drawing the line here. I'm not driving around in a purple car, for pete's sake, I'm an officer of the law."

[ByTor]

The only PT Cruiser I recall is the one Skyler gave Jr. for his birthday.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

I could not stand Marie in the beginning, there was not a darn thing I found likable about her.  Then she grew on me when she was taking care of Hank & he was such a dick to her...there was a scene where she went off by herself to cry that really got to me.  From then on, Marie became my favorite.  I don't think my feelings for a character have ever turned around that dramatically.

I had the EXACT same journey with my feelings about Marie. I loved how she stood by her husband. She truly loved him, and knew it wasn't the real Hank who was being such an asshole. She was also the one who really stood up to Walt at the end. Marie had her issues, but she was a fiercely loyal woman and I admired her purple ass for that. 

[Uncle JUICE]

On 1/2/2017 at 2:09 PM, ByTor said:

My comment was in reply to ketose's comment that "Walt was meticulous, but I'm not sure he was a genius."

I'm only quoting you because I know you still watch, but one of the tiny details we see in the White home is an award Walt won for crystallography from some science institute. He certainly was more than just meticulous. Jesse was meticulous and couldn't make Walt's product. Gale was a trained lab scientist, and he tells Gus he couldn't make what Walt makes. 

[piequinn35]

Walt is a genius coz he made a recipe for meth that turned out to be 99.1% pure, and Jesse is smart, being a not trained chemist, he made a 96.2% pure meth.