S01.E09: I'm Going To The Beach With Josh And His Friends!

[SeanC]

Yeah, I like her, but Paula seems to have taken on the friend role (how did she get to the beach so quick???) and they kind of threw her into Greg's orbit. Still it's early and hopefully we have time to develop her.

I agree that Heather definitely feels like the most peripheral castmember.  Having her date Greg is, I think, a good idea, both because it broadens her interactions with the cast (she otherwise doesn't especially fit into either Rebecca's work life or her Josh-centric personal life very well) and because I think they have a good dynamic (she's certainly much better-positioned to deal with Greg's often bitter attitude than Rebecca, at present).  

[marketdoctor]

 

is my memory right that we had only one new song this time (Valencia's)?

 

Sort of.  There was the song Rebbecca feminist pole-danced to, though it was recorded.  (In feminist pole-dancing, you CAN notice the song as part of the larger picture of the art form--I hope; I don't want to offend Ms. Bloom there, because "sexy comedy" is surprisingly difficult.)  There was the reprise of West Covina, so take your pick as to if that's new or not.

 

One completely-new song sung by a cast member, one recorded song, and one reprise.

 

I enjoyed it, though it was sad.  It wasn't quite Very Special Episode, but it was a game changer.

 

ETA:  I wonder if there was something meta about going to the beach, which is often something where you remember the good bits (warm!  Water!  Sand!) and not the sad bits (crowds!  Traffic!  Sand on everything you touch!)  or more generally, things that sound like complete fun, but have more realness than they get credit for.

Edited January 27, 2016 by marketdoctor

[Snarklepuss]

 

YES. Thank you -- this is how I have always seen Rebecca's motivations for moving. That it was the nostalgia of the happier, simpler time -- when she was truly happy -- and Josh is just a symbol of that time. That Rebecca had an unhappy, dreary, soulless life in New York, and seeing Josh again reminded her of when she was truly happy -- at drama camp, where she was free to be herself. I think Rebecca has been chasing a feeling, manifested onto a person.

 

Why I don't think Rebecca was truly lying at the beginning is because we saw a flashback of her relationship with Josh at camp -- and I thought he was clearly not as into her as she was into him. Which is why I think it's funny that he remembers her (and has characterized her) as his "childhood sweetheart" -- it's the pull of nostalgia and childhood, and the longing for a simpler life. That Josh moved back to his childhood home and is still with his high school girlfriend, to me, says a lot about his character.

 

I know "it's a lot more nuanced than that," but what has always been appealing about this show to me, is a woman who clearly either chose or was forced into a career and life path that didn't fit her early on in life is now getting a second chance at...adolescence and growing up. Rebecca, to me, is a stunted adolescent living in a professional adult woman's body (there's a reason, to me, that the quasi-parental convo with Paula at the end rang so true). But Josh is a stereotypical teenage boyfriend -- he's good-looking and nice, and it doesn't matter if you have different outlooks, because it's all about "hanging out" and nobody ever talks about the future.

 

I understand mental health plays a role, but while others see a romcom in this show, I see a classic coming-of-age story.

 

Thank you, I agree with your post, all of it - I've been too spread thin and concentrating on other shows to pay enough attention to this one but you just nailed it for me completely from start to finish!  I'm thinking now, "Hey, why didn't I think of that?"  Because it is truly something you could have pulled right out of my head!

[dubbel zout]

That Josh moved back to his childhood home and is still with his high school girlfriend, to me, says a lot about his character.

I don't think Josh has ever lived outside of West Covina, has he? I don't count being away at summer camp as a kid. I think Josh is someone with low ambitions for himself. I don't mean that negatively; he wants a life that is comfortable and relatively nonchallenging, and there's nothing wrong with that. I see why Rebecca is attracted to him now, but I think she has higher expectations for her life. She's still dealing with complicated law cases, even if the stakes are lower than they were in NYC. She's got a lot to deal with before she deals with that, though, I think.

[Snarklepuss]

I don't think Josh has ever lived outside of West Covina, has he? I don't count being away at summer camp as a kid. I think Josh is someone with low ambitions for himself. I don't mean that negatively; he wants a life that is comfortable and relatively nonchallenging, and there's nothing wrong with that. I see why Rebecca is attracted to him now, but I think she has higher expectations for her life. She's still dealing with complicated law cases, even if the stakes are lower than they were in NYC. She's got a lot to deal with before she deals with that, though, I think.

 

I agree, and going with EOlivet's wonderful theory, I think Josh is the personification of that simple time in her life that Rebecca is trying to recapture.  But eventually she will realize that she has progressed beyond that simple mindset she once had and that Josh represents, and realize she needs more in a man.  Josh will look too unchallenging to her.  I've been saying since day one that he's a space cadet and she is way more complicated and intellectual for him.

 

I also think that the stress of her job as a lawyer is making her look for less challenging relationships in her personal life.  She couldn't handle the stress of a man more on her level right now (let alone one that was available and willing to reciprocate).  If that were the case, she'd be with Greg right now for sure.  When she finally works it out (like I hope she will) she will be able to handle more.  Whether it will be Greg or not, who knows?

Edited January 27, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't think Josh has ever lived outside of West Covina, has he?

He briefly lived in New York before moving back to West Covina and got back together with Valencia shortly after that. Greg made it sound like Josh maybe moved back to get Valencia back but they haven't elaborated on that since Greg mentioned it in one of the first episodes.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

There's More To Crazy Ex-Girlfriend's Current Girlfriend Than Meets The Eye
Valencia reveals herself to be even meaner -- but also smarter -- than previously believed.

[Eyes High]

I actually like Valencia. She's a good foil for Rebecca when she's not super evil and she puts her in her place, because let's face it, Rebecca is very, very quirky. And I want to like Greg, but he needs to be toned down a bit. I always find myself rooting for the other person in his arguments. I realize these characters are extremes, but it makes me hard to like anyone.  Except White Josh. He can be there anytime (and preferably shirtless).

 

I think if she were just hateful towards Rebecca, it would be one thing, but she seems to be awful to pretty much everyone, and there are a few red flags to suggest that however justified she might be in her hatred of Rebecca, she's not a very nice person (whatever the reasons for that might be):

 

1. No female friends.

2. Offers helpful "suggestions" which tear other women down.

3. Josh's crew of longstanding friends can't stand her. (If one of your friends can't get along with your girl or guy, that's one thing, but all of them...? Red flag.)

4. Josh's loving family can't stand Valencia. True, this might be because "Asians don't like dumb people" (as Chris put it), which wouldn't be fair to Valencia (especially considering that Josh is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, either), but again, if you have a loving, caring family whose members hate your intended, assuming the reason for the hatred isn't based in ignorance or prejudice...red flag.

 

Josh will look too unchallenging to her.  I've been saying since day one that he's a space cadet and she is way more complicated and intellectual for him.

 

I also think that the stress of her job as a lawyer is making her look for less challenging relationships in her personal life.  She couldn't handle the stress of a man more on her level right now (let alone one that was available and willing to reciprocate).  If that were the case, she'd be with Greg right now for sure.  When she finally works it out (like I hope she will) she will be able to handle more.  Whether it will be Greg or not, who knows?

 

The fact that the show keeps on making jokes out of how stupid Josh is--not knowing what a "palate" was, in this episode--does not bode well. With that said, I'm not sure that Rebecca needs someone "challenging," or that she's seeking a simple relationship because of the stress of her job. Even leaving the job aside, she has enough mental and emotional problems of her own to deal with, and I don't think that she's mentally equipped to deal with another person's issues in an intimate relationship at this point, or maybe ever. Moreover, someone like Greg, who is smart but riddled with his own issues and complexes, wouldn't be much of a support system for her; he's intelligent enough to understand Rebecca's issues, sure, but he's too far up his own ass to show her the compassion that she needs, or to let her moments of impulsive, hurtful behaviour roll off his back.

 

I think the bit on the bus was telling. Greg seems obviously pained when Rebecca brings up her vegetarian chef hookup, her other hookup, and their own "hookup." Rebecca, who's flailing at this point, misses that Greg is pretty upset that she brought it up. When Rebecca seeks the others' understanding and compassion after admitting her lies, Greg (who's still smarting from Rebecca cheerfully revealing something he'd much rather have kept secret) is overwhelmed and at a loss, while Josh instantly responds to her the way she wanted everyone to respond (with warmth and sympathy). Not to say that Greg should have been a fount of warmth and compassion given what Rebecca did, only that he was too busy processing everything else to be there for her in the way that Josh was.

 

Someone simple, who "eats clean and journals hard," who gives her warm and unconditional love, and who can take her out of her own head, might be best suited for Rebecca. Ideally, that someone would be smarter than Josh, but in my experience, guys who are brilliant as well as sweet, warm, giving, and uncomplicated in their relationships are rarer than hen's teeth. The smarter the guy, in my experience, the more likely you're going to have a male version of Rebecca: neurotic, high-strung, self-doubting, self-hating, prone to depression and anxiety, and riddled with various complexes...in a word, "challenging." The conversation is stellar, but the bullshit is abundant.

 

On Greg's side, I get the sense that he doesn't have the emotional wherewithal to deal with Rebecca's "challenging" behaviour in the context of a romantic relationship with all his other issues, not to mention the emotional strain of caring for a sick parent. On top of all that, Greg seems like a sensitive person who gets hurt pretty easily, which is a poor match for someone like Rebecca who acts impulsively with no self-consciousness or regard for others' feelings (and who only later realizes the damage she has done). He also still seems to be licking his wounds over everything that happened with Rebecca, thus his obvious hurt when Rebecca cheerily starts going on about her past hookups. Someone like Heather, who brings no drama to the table and makes no emotional demands of him, is exactly what he needs. 

 

I've seen discussions to the effect that Greg would be good for Rebecca because he calls her on her bullshit, but I think with people like Rebecca, they don't need someone to call them on their bullshit. They're well aware of how awful they are, even if that awareness often comes after the fact. Rebecca didn't need Greg to get mad at her to realize that she'd done something terrible by sleeping with the vegan chef and ditching out on their date. What they need is not someone who will call them on their bullshit, but someone who will support them in spite of the bullshit and not take the bullshit personally, and, so far at least, I don't think that Greg's capable of doing that with Rebecca.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[dubbel zout]

He briefly lived in New York before moving back to West Covina and got back together with Valencia shortly after that.

 

D'oh, I'm an idiot.

[Jillybean]

Not a good opener for the second half of the season. Especially, for those who may have tuned in after Rachel's award. I found myself depressed when I usually find myself smiling. I did like the West Covena reprise. That's about all.

 

Agreed - I didn't smile or laugh even once. It was sad.

I guess I'm the only one who looks at Valencia and does not see "hot". I do not get it; especially not in Southern California. She also has zero charisma with the songs.

 

You're not alone. I've always thought she is unattractive and an odd choice.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Jillybean

[SeanC]

He briefly lived in New York before moving back to West Covina and got back together with Valencia shortly after that. Greg made it sound like Josh maybe moved back to get Valencia back but they haven't elaborated on that since Greg mentioned it in one of the first episodes.

In retrospect, even moving to New York seems a bit odd for Josh, as we've come to know him.  Though perhaps his current attitude is in part specifically because he went to New York and felt so unhappy there?

[Snarklepuss]

I've seen discussions to the effect that Greg would be good for Rebecca because he calls her on her bullshit, but I think with people like Rebecca, they don't need someone to call them on their bullshit. They're well aware of how awful they are, even if that awareness often comes after the fact. Rebecca didn't need Greg to get mad at her to realize that she'd done something terrible by sleeping with the vegan chef and ditching out on their date. What they need is not someone who will call them on their bullshit, but someone who will support them in spite of the bullshit and not take the bullshit personally, and, so far at least, I don't think that Greg's capable of doing that with Rebecca.

 

I agree, but I think it's at least theoretically possible that if Rebecca were to change enough to be ready for a more interesting guy, Greg could somewhere along the line have some kind of epiphany and change into that guy.  In other words, when she finally gets over whatever she needs to get over, she wouldn't put out so much bullshit and he wouldn't feel the need to call her on it or act out on old baggage of his own.  I say "theoretically possible" because it's just a TV show and one day after a pivotal moment these people might just wake up and realize all that was wrong with them and why they belong with so-and-so.  Period, the end.  Perhaps if the show is ever really shutting down they can wrap things up quickly that way.

[arc]

See, personally, I don't think she left anything out at that moment. She didn't move there for Josh. He was the conduit for her to find a new way to change her life.

Yeah, but the original West Covina song, to me, makes it pretty clear she did move to West Covina at least 50% for Josh, from her repeated denials to even just the broken rhyme Rinaldo pointed out earlier.

 

In retrospect, even moving to New York seems a bit odd for Josh, as we've come to know him.  Though perhaps his current attitude is in part specifically because he went to New York and felt so unhappy there?

Maybe he was frustrated at not making a Harold team! =)

[Eyes High]

I agree, but I think it's at least theoretically possible that if Rebecca were to change enough to be ready for a more interesting guy, Greg could somewhere along the line have some kind of epiphany and change into that guy.  In other words, when she finally gets over whatever she needs to get over, she wouldn't put out so much bullshit and he wouldn't feel the need to call her on it or act out on old baggage of his own. 

 

I think they could both benefit from more mental toughness--Rebecca to avoid being hurt by Greg's "teasing" and gloomy outlook, Greg to avoid being stung by Rebecca's impulsive and unintentionally hurtful behaviour--as well as more compassion and empathy for the other: Greg for Rebecca's mental illness and insecurities, and Rebecca for Greg's feelings. 

 

I do think that the Thanksgiving episode ending showed a bit of promise on that front. Greg rudely showed up unannounced when Rebecca was sick and in great pain, but instead of shooing him away, she understood that he needed company and had had a terrible day and spent time with him. She attentively listened to his half-truth explanation for why he decided to abandon his business school plans with compassion and gave him a helpful suggestion (which he appears to have taken, given his comment about taking night classes in this episode). Greg for his part did tease Rebecca, but it was playful and affectionate ("portly puppies," joking that he was used to her being poor company) rather than nasty and mean (blithely calling her a liar and a hypocrite on their date). He was also able to confide in Rebecca despite his established issues with her. All of this suggests that there might be hope for them to have a relationship, at least as friends, that isn't horribly dysfunctional.

 

I tend to side-eye Greg's tendency to make nasty, mean "jokes," because 1) even if he can't distinguish between teasing and cruel mocking, he's smart enough to know what he's doing and 2) he's entirely capable of turning it on and off at will: in the scene with the doctor in the Thanksgiving episode, he is earnest, polite and respectful. He knows how he comes off; he just doesn't care. It seems from Greg's interactions with Josh and his crew that he's making fun of them most of the time; it's just that they rarely call him out on it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Not that I'm defending Greg but his casual insults to Josh (and to Hector and White Josh but to a lesser extent) are common among guys, especially guys who were friends as teenagers. Something about puberty brings that out in boys and Greg never outgrew it.

I've seen discussions to the effect that Greg would be good for Rebecca because he calls her on her bullshit, but I think with people like Rebecca, they don't need someone to call them on their bullshit. They're well aware of how awful they are, even if that awareness often comes after the fact. Rebecca didn't need Greg to get mad at her to realize that she'd done something terrible by sleeping with the vegan chef and ditching out on their date. What they need is not someone who will call them on their bullshit, but someone who will support them in spite of the bullshit and not take the bullshit personally, and, so far at least, I don't think that Greg's capable of doing that with Rebecca.

Heh, like Paula! I was actually surprised that she finally took such a stand with Rebecca this week because normally she is not just supportive but she usually actively encourages Rebecca's schemes to spend time with Josh.

[Eyes High]

Not that I'm defending Greg but his casual insults to Josh (and to Hector and White Josh but to a lesser extent) are common among guys, especially guys who were friends as teenagers. Something about puberty brings that out in boys and Greg never outgrew it.

Heh, like Paula! I was actually surprised that she finally took such a stand with Rebecca this week because normally she is not just supportive but she usually actively encourages Rebecca's schemes to spend time with Josh.

 

I think it's possible to provide emotional support to someone who is engaging in unhealthy or self-destructive behaviours without enabling them (as Paula has done) and without heaping judgment on them (as Greg has done), but admittedly it's a difficult balance. Take (as a non-CEG example) "Your drinking is awesome, let's pour you another one" vs." Your drinking is terrible and you're a terrible person for drinking that much, WTF is wrong with you?" vs. "I'm really concerned about your drinking and I think you need to talk to someone about it."

 

Not that I'm defending Greg but his casual insults to Josh (and to Hector and White Josh but to a lesser extent) are common among guys, especially guys who were friends as teenagers. Something about puberty brings that out in boys and Greg never outgrew it.

 

He casually insults Valencia as well (wondering whether she saw herself in the "vain yoga instructor"), so I think he's an equal opportunity jerk.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Conan Troutman]

Rachel Bloom just ruined Salma Hayek for me.

[SeanC]

He casually insults Valencia as well (wondering whether she saw herself in the "vain yoga instructor"), so I think he's an equal opportunity jerk.

Well, that's somewhat different since he actually doesn't like Valencia, per his past statements.

[Lion]

I guess I'm the only one who looks at Valencia and does not see "hot". I do not get it; especially not in Southern California. She also has zero charisma with the songs.

I've only caught this show a couple of times so I don't really know all of the characters or their relationships to one another, though I get the general idea.  In this episode, I found myself shocked to realize that Valencia was supposed to represent a "hot" woman.  I had been so confused about her relationship with Josh the other times I caught the show because they seemed like they had zero in common and it was hard to imagine a physical attraction.  I get too used to the CW only having ridiculously good looking people that I catch myself noticing right away when one isn't attractive.

 

Of course, then Valencia sang her song and I chastised myself for how ridiculous vapid my brain talk sounded.  I felt bad.  

[rejnel]

I thought Rebecca's life in NY was all work, no play, no self-expression, etc. But she took a pole dancing class for enough time to get good at it?

 

Heather doesn't work for me. She's like a poorly thought-out, less interesting April Ludgate.

[Eyes High]

I've only caught this show a couple of times so I don't really know all of the characters or their relationships to one another, though I get the general idea.  In this episode, I found myself shocked to realize that Valencia was supposed to represent a "hot" woman.  I had been so confused about her relationship with Josh the other times I caught the show because they seemed like they had zero in common and it was hard to imagine a physical attraction.  I get too used to the CW only having ridiculously good looking people that I catch myself noticing right away when one isn't attractive.

Of course, then Valencia sang her song and I chastised myself for how ridiculous vapid my brain talk sounded.  I felt bad.

 

It is kind of nice that in a show with both white and POC characters (as opposed to all white or all POC), the characters treated within the show as the "hottest" (Josh and Valencia) are POC. It seems oddly progressive that the white leading girl is fawning over the short Asian dude as the epitome of male attractiveness while wanting nothing to do with the rival tall(er) white dude...not because it doesn't happen in real life, but because it's not something you usually see on TV.

 

This show is so committed to diversity that the poster for The Cancer Crew showed a cast with a number of POC characters. I also noticed that the two guest cast doctors featured on the show to date (Dr. Akopian and the unnamed doctor from 1x06) were played by black women.

[k1ptog2]

On any other show it would be Josh and AsianJosh, while here it's Josh and WhiteJosh

[Eyes High]

On any other show it would be Josh and AsianJosh, while here it's Josh and WhiteJosh

 

Yes! Also, Josh is the alpha of his group of friends (thus "White Josh") and resents Greg's intellectual hobbies, while white dude Greg fumes about Josh's status as unquestioned alpha and mocks Josh's low intelligence and brotastic tastes. It really shouldn't be groundbreaking, but it feels novel.

 

Heather doesn't work for me. She's like a poorly thought-out, less interesting April Ludgate.

 

Heather is spectacularly rude, even for this show (mocking the tour bus decor in front of Rebecca, the hostess, was just beyond), but she just seems super chill as opposed to openly hateful and nasty in the way that April could be. April was a horrible human being. I doubt April would have plainly stated that she wanted to be someone's friend, or that April would have approved of Greg's sweet mom and her family, or that April would have called Greg out as opposed to sitting back and gleefully enjoying the drama. I still think the show is figuring out what to do with the character, though, thus the decision to pair her off with Greg. Now that she's not officially studying Rebecca anymore, she's just sort of...there. She and Valencia also seem too similar in their attitude, and their vibe of being permanently unimpressed with everyone but themselves is awfully tiresome. At least Greg hates himself as much as he hates everyone else.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Eyes High

[Irlandesa]

I thought Rebecca's life in NY was all work, no play, no self-expression, etc. But she took a pole dancing class for enough time to get good at it?

I bet she took that class for exercise or because she thought it was something someone like her should take because it had "feminist" in the title.  And then she kept going and obsessively worked at it until she absolutely KILLED pole dancing because she is going to be the best feminist pole dancer. But that doesn't mean it was "fun" for her but rather a challenge so not really an escape.

 

On any other show it would be Josh and AsianJosh, while here it's Josh and WhiteJosh

Grandfathered has something similar with a character named Victor and White Victor...not that I remember ever seeing White Victor.

[SeanC]

I still think the show is figuring out what to do with the character, though, thus the decision to pair her off with Greg. Now that she's not officially studying Rebecca anymore, she's just sort of...there. She and Valencia also seem too similar in their attitude, and their vibe of being permanently unimpressed with everyone but themselves is awfully tiresome. At least Greg hates himself as much as he hates everyone else.

I do wonder if they should have stuck with the "studying Rebecca" gimmick longer, because Heather, unlike April, doesn't work with Rebecca or anything like that, so there's no real reason for her to go anywhere that her slacker attitude doesn't want her to go.  Dating Greg is a good idea, though, both in terms of hopefully broadening the character's connections and because I think their dynamic is funny.

 

She doesn't really remind me much of Valencia, though.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Is it wrong that I wish White Josh would become Shirtless Josh?

[dubbel zout]

I thought Rebecca's life in NY was all work, no play, no self-expression, etc. But she took a pole dancing class for enough time to get good at it?

 

I don't think "all work, no play" was meant 100 percent literally.

 

She doesn't really remind me much of Valencia, though.

Same here. The biggest difference, IMO, is Heather genuinely likes Rebecca and doesn't feel at all threatened by her.

[Eyes High]

I bet she took that class for exercise or because she thought it was something someone like her should take because it had "feminist" in the title.  And then she kept going and obsessively worked at it until she absolutely KILLED pole dancing because she is going to be the best feminist pole dancer. But that doesn't mean it was "fun" for her but rather a challenge so not really an escape.

 

If Rebecca's anything like other type A people I know, she would not be okay with being mediocre at any pursuit, even a hobby class like pole dancing. They cannot do things "for fun" or cheerfully suck at something. They must do everything, even a non-competitive fitness class, perfectly, and if they can't do it perfectly instantly, they'll either quit in genuine disappointment that they're not instantly amazing or they'll bust ass until they can. Of course, to be good at anything you have to be willing to be terrible initially in order to learn ("Sucking at something is the first step to being sorta good at something"), so I can see Rebecca killing herself trying to fight through the mediocre phase to bust through to "impressive" status. I doubt that would be much fun for her, despite the validation of her feminist cred and pole dancing skills from her instructor.

 

As an example from another type A, I took up singing lessons about three and a half years ago with the stated goal of wanting to sing karaoke without embarrassing myself. (Good singing is not even the point of karaoke, but moving on...) I started taking singing lessons as a "casual, fun thing" with no intention of performing in recitals or voice competitions (having been scarred by competing in performing arts festivals in piano as a child). Three and a half years later, I have completed formal voice examinations, performed in multiple recitals, competed several times at various performing arts festivals, and I still haven't gone anywhere near karaoke. Perfectionism is a bitch.

 

I didn't think it was deliberately rude.  For a long ride, people just were letting the conversations happen.  And once those conversations had conversed themselves out, I'm betting more mingling would take place. It's just that Rebecca wanted to immediately have the PARTY bus instead of chillingi and checking her phone which I would do--because I'm awful at mingling and would be left out as well.

 

That segment was particularly cringeworthy for me, since I've been in Rebecca's position--seeing spontaneous conversations pop up around you and not knowing how or whether to insert yourself--and it's awful. I usually give up and wind up in a corner checking my phone, but I get why Rebecca wouldn't go gently into that good night.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Eyes High

[red12]

It is kind of nice that in a show with both white and POC characters (as opposed to all white or all POC), the characters treated within the show as the "hottest" (Josh and Valencia) are POC. It seems oddly progressive that the white leading girl is fawning over the short Asian dude as the epitome of male attractiveness while wanting nothing to do with the rival tall(er) white dude...not because it doesn't happen in real life, but because it's not something you usually see on TV.

 

This show is so committed to diversity that the poster for The Cancer Crew showed a cast with a number of POC characters. I also noticed that the two guest cast doctors featured on the show to date (Dr. Akopian and the unnamed doctor from 1x06) were played by black women.

 

I absolutely understand and mostly agree with your point. Part of what I like about English shows is that there are men and women who look like men and women I know. 

 

In the case of Valencia though, while I appreciate that she is a WOC, that doesn't negate the casting being off for me. There are lots of brown actresses who are pretty and talented enough to fill the spot of the "hot mean girl". Gabrielle Union for example, is the type of actress who is very attractive, but can play anger inducing mean girl in a way that makes you want to strangle her and steal her outfit afterward. I'm not saying she is right for this show. Just using her as an example case. 

 

So, I clicked away from my post and realized a girl like the one I described would probably not stay with her high school sweetheart(unless he's a successful athlete); especially a low key, low to medium ambition guy like Josh. The show needed someone who is reasonably attractive, but not gorgeous with a thin body who props her self-esteem up with the perception that she is the best thing that could ever happen to a certain guy/crew. I still think Valencia is miscast, but maybe they were correct not to aim too high.

Edited January 29, 2016 by red12

[Trini]

Hi, I don't really comment on the show, but I am watching and enjoying it.

I identify in many ways with Rebecca - including crushing on hot Filipinos - so I'm definitely Team Josh. I'm rooting for her to get better and get the guy. I don't know for sure they would be a good couple, but at least I want to see them have a go at it. Almost everywhere else where the girl likes the guy who is oblivious to her, we know that they're not going to end up together, or he's not The One. But here, Josh actually likes her back! Even when she's being a weirdo. It's refreshing.

 

Back to lurking....

[Eyes High]

In the case of Valencia though, while I appreciate that she is a WOC, that doesn't negate the casting being off for me. There are lots of brown actresses who are pretty and talented enough to fill the spot of the "hot mean girl". Gabrielle Union for example, is the type of actress who is very attractive, but can play anger inducing mean girl in a way that makes you want to strangle her and steal her outfit afterward. I'm not saying she is right for this show. Just using her as an example case. 

 

So, I clicked away from my post and realized a girl like the one I described would probably not stay with her high school sweetheart(unless he's a successful athlete); especially a low key, low to medium ambition guy like Josh. The show needed someone who is reasonably attractive, but not gorgeous with a thin body who props her self-esteem up with the perception that she is the best thing that could ever happen to a certain guy/crew. I still think Valencia is miscast, but maybe they were correct not to aim too high.

 

On the one hand, I don't want to bag on an actress' looks too much, and it seems especially wrong in a show that wears its feminism on its sleeve, but on the other hand, you have a point. I have to admit that I have trouble believing that Gabrielle Ruiz, aside from the "hot" signifiers (big hair, fit figure, etc. etc.), was the most beautiful person they could have found to play the hot mean girl. I get that they were looking for someone with a musical theatre background who was not only Latina (assuming that Valencia's ethnicity was a non-negotiable aspect of the character) but who could also dance and sing very well, but it's not as if Broadway isn't incredibly lookist (looksist?), especially when it comes to women. You'd think that there'd be lots of gorgeous, young triple threats to choose from, and if they needed gorgeous, young Latina triple threats, you'd think the productions of In The Heights making the rounds would provide a large supply. Other Broadway actresses and actors who have crossed over to TV like Aaron Tveit, Jonathan Groff, Laura Osnes and Sutton Foster aren't exactly hideous monsters. 

 

On the other hand, maybe they were looking for a very tall, willowy type, which is not a body type you see all that often on powerhouse singers. It seems to me that a lot of powerhouse Broadway singers, even the skinny minnies like Laura Osnes, have big barrel chests and relatively short, thick waists. If they decided they wanted a tall, willowy type--to contrast with Rachel Bloom's more compact build--they might have had to rule out a lot of candidates.

 

But here, Josh actually likes her back! Even when she's being a weirdo. It's refreshing.

 

Josh gave as his reason for dumping Rebecca in high school that she was "dramatic and weird." It will be interesting if that comes back into play.

[SeanC]

Josh gave as his reason for dumping Rebecca in high school that she was "dramatic and weird." It will be interesting if that comes back into play.

I was thinking on that point, Josh and Rebecca lived on opposite sides of the country at that point, so I'm not sure how a high school relationship would even have worked under those circumstances (though given how miserable Rebecca's life already was, easy to see why she wasn't worried about that).

[Eyes High]

 I don't think they needed am actress for Valencia who is a fit for Hollywood's screwed-up and unrealistic beauty politics. Valencia didn't need to be the hottest person in the room for Rebecca to feel unable to compete with her or for Josh to stay in a relationship with her. She's just a representation of Rebecca's own insecurities about herself. And she doesn't need to be the hottest woman on the planet for Josh to be attracted to her (as it has already been established that they have history and chemistry haha). Attraction works differently in the real world anyway. Besides, it's not like the actress is hideous. She is good-looking, even in a conventional way.

 

What I like about this show that the show cast people who may not be your typical TV-pretty, but who are still ridiculously good-looking. 

 

It seems unfair that TV and viewers demand that you need to be a perfect 10 to play a hot girl, especially where said hot girl also needs to sing like an angel and dance like a devil, and requiring perfect 10 perfection, especially when that's so often based on racist beauty standards that favour white or white-passing actresses, makes it even harder for Latina actresses to get a break. With that said, there's a big difference between perfect 10 and "credibly beautiful" (someone gorgeous enough for Josh to stick with and compared to whom Rebecca would feel hopelessly gawky and inferior). Gabrielle's definitely not a perfect 10. Is she "credibly beautiful"? I think it's up for debate. I think the fact objections have been raised as to whether or not she's even attractive, let alone attractive enough, is telling. 

 

They needed to get someone who could sing and who could dance as well as fitting the yoga instructor look, which (I guess, based on what I've seen) left out a lot of otherwise talented Broadway triple threats. However, it's hard to believe that they couldn't cast someone who ticked all of those boxes, even assuming they wanted a Latina actress for the part, who wasn't also a "credibly beautiful" girl.

 

"Hollywood Ugly" (America Ferrera on Ugly Betty, e.g.), where "ugly" characters are played by slim gorgeous actresses with unflattering styling or by slightly heavier actresses who are of perfectly normal weight (like the secretary in Love Actually, who is supposedly disgustingly fat despite not being fat at all), is a thing. If you cast an actress who is not ugly but who is "Hollywood Ugly" and expect us to buy that that character would be driven to despair by a rival's beauty, then wouldn't you need to cast a character who is unambiguously gorgeous? Gabrielle Ruiz is perfectly nice-looking, but in TV/movie world, that's not enough.

 

Valencia is treated within the show as a very attractive character and not only by Rebecca; she is distressed by being the object of constant seduction attempts. The actress does need to be very attractive to sell that quality. Don Draper wouldn't have worked as an effortlessly charismatic, seductive alpha male if Jon Hamm had lacked that classic handsomeness, for example if he'd been played by, say, Michael Gladis, who played Paul. Michael Gladis is a perfectly nice-looking dude but he's not ridiculously classically handsome like Jon Hamm. Similarly, Valencia lacks something as a character because we're constantly told how hot and gorgeous Valencia is, when she, while undeniably "hot" (big hair, slim figure, long legs, tight and revealing clothing, etc.), is not particularly gorgeous.

 

If Valencia were inarguably and unambiguously gorgeous, Rebecca's creepy fixation on her might make more sense for the audience. As it is, I can't help but think of the "...Her?" joke on Arrested Development. Gabrielle Ruiz is a perfectly nice-looking young woman who ticks all the boxes for hotness. Is she sufficiently pretty to play a character like Valencia? Eh.

[SeanC]

I was rewatching the "West Covina" reprise, and I was amused at how Rebecca gets all hopeful that Fantasy Josh is going to declare his love for her, and then, when he breaks the rhyme scheme, she has a chastened "right, that makes sense" look.  

[Irlandesa]

So I Googled Gabrielle Ruiz to see what she looked like because it never even occurred to me that Valencia isn't "hot" enough to play the part she's playing.   I think the actress is beautiful.  She's prettier as Gabrielle than she is as Valencia because Valencia's looks aren't as aesthetically pleasing to me as a more natural look.

 

But I think she's just fine for the part she's playing. Better than fine.  Hotness or being the kind of woman that men and women flock to is very subjective.  If someone names an actress they think is a perfect 10, a simple Google search will likely reveal that someone out there thinks she's an ugly fat troll.

 

The character is supposed to represent the opposite of Rebecca not necessarily in looks but in confidence.  Valencia doesn't have to be a perfect 10; she just needs to be a character who believes she's a perfect 10.  Women who believe they're a 10, even if they're not, do land hot men. That's why I absolutely believe Josh is into her.  Women who believe they're a perfect 10 can make even secure women feel less secure even if they're not as "mean girl" as Valencia is.  And Rebecca is definitely not secure. 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Snarklepuss]

The character is supposed to represent the opposite of Rebecca not necessarily in looks but in confidence.  Valencia doesn't have to be a perfect 10 she just needs to be a character who believes she's a perfect 10.  Women who believe they're a 10, even if they're not, do land hot men. That's why I absolutely believe Josh is into her.  Women who believe they're a perfect 10 can make even secure women feel less secure even if they're not as "mean girl" as Valencia is.  And Rebecca is definitely not secure. 

 

ITA, I think it's more about Valencia thinking she's hot than whether anyone else does.  Usually when a woman is confident about her physical appearance other people will find them very attractive even if they are technically only average at best.  Plus it can be more about how a woman wears her hair, clothes and makeup too.  I've seen men go gaga over truly ugly women just because they have a shock of blonde hair and dress and act like divas, which always ticks me off to be honest, but there it is.  That said, I would call Valencia an attractive woman.  She's perhaps not model perfect but I don't expect her to be.  I think Josh is good looking but he's not too good looking for her, IMHO.

[Rinaldo]

And Josh (and his actor) have been called ugly online too -- it's pretty much predictable in YouTube comments. 

 

I very much agree with the previous two comments. Maybe my gay male gaze is automatically suspect, but Valencia looks great to me. I would also mention (as I think was said a page back) that with people like these, who haven't left the circle of friends established back in elementary school, popularity was determined long ago and doesn't really get questioned subsequently; the statuses remain the same as they always were.

[LADreamr]

I don't know how much hotter Valencia needs to be, to be considered "hot enough." There never seems to be a bar too high for criticizing women's looks. But I think it's more to the point that men seem to be drawn to selfish bitches, rather than kind, supportive women, regardless of looks. Valencia has absolutely no redeeming qualities. I've never been able to figure out what is so appealing about personalities like that, to men.

[jecibels]

So I Googled Gabrielle Ruiz to see what she looked like because it never even occurred to me that Valencia isn't "hot" enough to play the part she's playing.   I think the actress is beautiful.  She's prettier as Gabrielle than she is as Valencia because Valencia's looks aren't as aesthetically pleasing to me as a more natural look.

 

But I think she's just fine for the part she's playing. Better than fine.  Hotness or being the kind of woman that men and women flock to is very subjective.  If someone names an actress they think is a perfect 10, a simple Google search will likely reveal that someone out there thinks she's an ugly fat troll.

 

The character is supposed to represent the opposite of Rebecca not necessarily in looks but in confidence.  Valencia doesn't have to be a perfect 10; she just needs to be a character who believes she's a perfect 10.  Women who believe they're a 10, even if they're not, do land hot men. That's why I absolutely believe Josh is into her.  Women who believe they're a perfect 10 can make even secure women feel less secure even if they're not as "mean girl" as Valencia is.  And Rebecca is definitely not secure. 

 

Yeah, I am genuinely confused by this discussion, to be honest. I think Valencia/Gabrielle Ruiz is absolutely stunning. I feel like she's model attractive with an absolutely flawless body. Like I am just absolutely confused by it... but let's be honest, looks are subjective. I completely agree that Valencia is Rebecca's polar opposite in her confidence and security. 

[LADreamr]

But how confident and secure is Valencia really, if she is so quickly and deeply threatened by Rebecca's presence around Josh? She actually seems threatened by all other women, or she wouldn't need to be so awful to them. Rebecca's ability to be around and be kind to other women, even Valencia, suggests she is actually the more secure one, despite feeling a bit lost in her life at the moment.

[possibilities]

I'm in the camp that is surprised to hear that Valencia isn't considered beautiful, or "hot enough" for the role (and I think that whatever a character looks like, it doesn't necessarily say a lot about the actor's looks because I've seen some pretty dramatic transformations through costuming, make up, and acting mannerisms).

 

In addition to that, though, I don't think the show is trying to imply that Valencia is a supermodel or the hottest woman on the planet or anything like that. She's just "super hot for Josh's gang" and "gorgeous for West Covina" and "hotter than Rebecca feels she is." The focus hasn't really been on how hot Valencia is, it's been on how she's "not weird" and she "knows how to attract a man" and how she's "hot and heavy with Josh." The main issue is that Valencia HAS JOSH. I'm using all caps not to shout, but because in my mind, every time Rebecca thinks about Valencia, she thinks like a billboard. There are probably a lot of women who are gorgeous, but they are not JOSH'S GIRLFRIEND. There's a halo of fantasy around her because of her status as WHAT JOSH WANTS (NOT REBECCA). She could be hideous, but if she was JOSH'S GIRLFRIEND she is UNATTAINABLY PERFECT (to Rebecca).

 

You don't have to be anything special, by the way, to be hit on by guys. I can say from experience that sometimes the more insecure you are inside, the more random guys want to fuck you. And women who make an effort, like Valencia, to "present themselves" in order to look good (it's obvious she works at it, where Rebecca's efforts are more hidden to the naive eye)-- endless stream of horndogs panting after them. The main way to repel guys is to seem, like Rebecca, as though you might be "smothering" or "too serious" or "embarrassing" to them in some way.

 

I have no problem believing Valencia is highly sought after and a status date for Josh, and is considered a catch in the eyes of his friends and Rebecca. Notably, I think Santino's character does not share the starry-eyed view of Valencia. He likes the more serious, non-conforming, or "attainable" type, because he's a professionally disgruntled malcontent, has a streak of self-loathing, and also enjoys his slightly rebellious/not-fitting-in persona.

[ToxicUnicorn]

I like the way the discussion has gone about Valencia.  I think the actress is fine for the role, aesthetically, and I think more and more that she is doing a really good job as an actor, as well.  She's playing her part as the sexy girl who has razor sharp instincts when it comes to protecting her turf very well.  Valencia is not likable to anyone but Josh (except for that interesting glimpse of vulnerability when she thought Rebecca could be a friend), but I completely believe that she and Josh have been enmeshed for as long as they have.  I think it's interesting to show Josh's tentative steps out of their bubble, and watch her trying to restore or re-balance their relationship.  It feels real to me.

 

Also, let's not forget, it's clear that Valencia knows how to give Josh what he wants in bed.  As young as Josh is, that is enough to make Valencia plenty hot.

 

My problem with watching Valencia is that I don't like her musical numbers.  As a few have said here and there, she definitely doesn't have the charisma that the others do in their solos.  Then again, that might be the point, in which case she might be being awesome.  Either way, I give her props for committing to her role.  

 

See, personally, I don't think she left anything out at that moment. She didn't move there for Josh. He was the conduit for her to find a new way to change her life.

Yeah, but the original West Covina song, to me, makes it pretty clear she did move to West Covina at least 50% for Josh, from her repeated denials to even just the broken rhyme Rinaldo pointed out earlier.  -- arc

I agree with arc here,  in fact, I think Rebecca's move was practically all about Josh.  She's dramatic and intense, so when she realizes she doesn't want to become the firm's youngest junior partner who works harder than everyone for the rest of her life, she throws out her old goal, and then basically starts all over again (in her determined way) to go for her new ideal - a perfect happy life in West Covina with Josh.  If Josh had greeted her with open arms, who is to say she even would have continued working?  From the pilot, being able to land a new job so easily was represented as purely a convenient means to an end: to be with Josh.

 

Having said that, I think it's great that Rebecca is capable of having a high powered career and of living on her own, and I love watching her deal with her life, with her ability to interact with Josh often having to take a back seat.  She's grown a lot already.

 

they could both benefit from more mental toughness--Rebecca to avoid being hurt by Greg's "teasing" and gloomy outlook, Greg to avoid being stung by Rebecca's impulsive and unintentionally hurtful behaviour--as well as more compassion and empathy for the other: Greg for Rebecca's mental illness and insecurities, and Rebecca for Greg's feelings.

 

 

I haven't really seen anything that seriously suggests Rebecca is mentally ill, or at least not any more so than Greg.  Yes, she's made some very impulsive decisions, and she's immature - she's prone to wishful thinking and pretty systematically fails to anticipate the consequences of her behavior.  But - these traits are not exhibited only by people with mental illness.  I am beginning to suspect that it's the use of the term "crazy" as a catch-all phrase that is the reason Rebecca protests all through the West Covina song.

 

I loved Josh's missing rhyme in the West Covina song.  That little duet was great.  Too little singing in this episode!

[muessigkeit]

I haven't really seen anything that seriously suggests Rebecca is mentally ill, or at least not any more so than Greg.  Yes, she's made some very impulsive decisions, and she's immature - she's prone to wishful thinking and pretty systematically fails to anticipate the consequences of her behavior.  But - these traits are not exhibited only by people with mental illness.  I am beginning to suspect that it's the use of the term "crazy" as a catch-all phrase that is the reason Rebecca protests all through the West Covina song.

 

She was on heavy medication that she's not taking anymore. Even though the therapist in 1x07 said she was over-medicated and blackmailed her into trying talking therapy instead, I doubt her old New York therapist would have prescribed those drugs to someone whose only problem was being immature. There's also a throwaway joke right in the pilot episode about a suicide attempt that "inconvenienced a lot of people."

[femmefan1946]

It was nicely realistic that dating a cute, nice girl like Heather hasn't magically made (Greg) him a nicer or happier person.

 

Heather is not nice! She is very stand offish about everyone. I think her basic character was established when she said she was studying Rebecca for a paper.  Whether the paper has been written or no, I think she is still studying the group.

BTW, I thought the best line of the show was Heather's "I'm a student." in that affectless, 'I take responsibility for nothing ' voice.

 

Why does Rebecca have to marry someone as smart as she is? Why not a cute, happy person who will stay home with the kids and cook dinner? And have a part-time job at the electronics store for pin money?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My problem with watching Valencia is that I don't like her musical numbers. As a few have said here and there, she definitely doesn't have the charisma that the others do in their solos. Then again, that might be the point, in which case she might be being awesome. Either way, I give her props for committing to her role.

Now that you mention it, the main reason I enjoyed her first song was that I loved the staging abd the Bollywood choreography (and, let's be honest, the presence of Alex Wong), not Valencia.

[SeanC]

She was on heavy medication that she's not taking anymore. Even though the therapist in 1x07 said she was over-medicated and blackmailed her into trying talking therapy instead, I doubt her old New York therapist would have prescribed those drugs to someone whose only problem was being immature. There's also a throwaway joke right in the pilot episode about a suicide attempt that "inconvenienced a lot of people."

Also, Heather's professor at the end of episode 104, who remarked that it sounded like Rebecca suffered from a number of diagnosable conditions.

[dubbel zout]

As young as Josh is, that is enough to make Valencia plenty hot.

 

Isn't Josh supposed to be around Rebecca's age, so early thirties? He's not exactly a teenager.

 

Why does Rebecca have to marry someone as smart as she is? Why not a cute, happy person who will stay home with the kids and cook dinner? And have a part-time job at the electronics store for pin money?

She doesn't have to, of course. But a lot of us think Rebecca would be happier with someone who challenges her intellectually. Maybe Josh has hidden depths, but I kind of doubt it.

[Eyes High]

Also, Heather's professor at the end of episode 104, who remarked that it sounded like Rebecca suffered from a number of diagnosable conditions.

 

In my opinion, that was the writers' tell that Rebecca isn't just your average immature, flighty person, that rather she is truly mentally ill.

 

However, the show has shied away from labeling Rebecca. When she comes out and asks the Dr. Phil hallucination in 1x07 whether she's schizophrenic, I seem to recall that the hallucination avoided answering the question. She moans about Sexy French Depression but has yet to sit down with an expert who tells her point blank that she is clinically depressed. Maybe the writers think that if they give Rebecca a capital-d Diagnosis (or multiple diagnoses), it will kill the comedy and they'll also bring down the wrath of activists accusing them of trivializing sufferers of those illnesses and playing serious mental problems for laughs. You're The Worst, a supposed comedy, did a depression storyline in its second season where a lead character acknowledges that they had been diagnosed with clinical depression, and while it was a thoughtful, careful and respectful treatment of depression, it pretty much killed the comedy and turned the season into one long Very Special Episode. On the other hand, if they show Rebecca as someone who checks all the boxes of someone who is suffering from a number of diagnosable disorders, as the teacher in Heather's class put it, without coming out and using the words, it might also smack of playing mental illness for laughs and trying to evade responsibility for doing so by failing to use the words. It's a bit of a double bind.

 

 

 

Why does Rebecca have to marry someone as smart as she is? Why not a cute, happy person who will stay home with the kids and cook dinner? And have a part-time job at the electronics store for pin money?

 

Women who like dudes tend to be happier with dudes who are as smart or smarter than they are. There's also a study showing that wives tend to be happier in marriage to husbands who are more educated than they are. (Doesn't work the other way around, unfortunately.) Josh is neither smarter than Rebecca--as far as we know, although occasionally shows like to have characters who appear to be ditzy or even cognitively impaired turn out to be supersmart for laughs--nor more educated. Rebecca doesn't have to marry someone as smart and as highly educated as she is, and, as I said upthread, marrying a guy as smart as she is probably means marrying someone who's as fucked-up as she is with his own set of mental issues and personality problems, since very smart people tend to be very fucked-up, but all other things being equal, statistically at least, she'll be happier if she does.

 

Also, Josh got his back up at Greg's pretentious hobbies like "reading books." Josh is still attracted to Rebecca despite knowing her level of accomplishment and despite her admission of her brilliance (164 IQ and all that), but I have trouble believing that Rebecca's intellectual superiority wouldn't strain their relationship the same way it strains Josh and Greg's friendship.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[Wax Lion]

To be honest, I never questioned if Gabrielle Ruiz was attractive enough for Valencia but I do think Valencia is supposed to be a certain type of SoCal woman. She's not a 10 but she acts like it and demands to be treated like her good looks go to 11, which will take you farther in someplace like the Inland Empire. If she expected special treatment for her looks in the trendier parts of Pasedena she might get laughed at but that's probably why she doesn't get out of West Covina much.

 

One of the things I'm enjoying is that this show captures the really suburban side of SoCal nicely. The cool parts are glamorous but the rest of the city leans heavily towards Applebees and Olive Gardens.

[ToxicUnicorn]

On any other show it would be Josh and AsianJosh, while here it's Josh and WhiteJosh

I love the fact that I didn't even realize this because the show made its choice seem so natural.  Good observation, though.

I bet she took that class for exercise or because she thought it was something someone like her should take because it had "feminist" in the title.  And then she kept going and obsessively worked at it until she absolutely KILLED pole dancing because she is going to be the best feminist pole dancer.

I agree.  When Rebecca said she got an A (which made me laugh a lot), it made perfect sense that she had taken it.

She was on heavy medication that she's not taking anymore. Even though the therapist in 1x07 said she was over-medicated and blackmailed her into trying talking therapy instead, I doubt her old New York therapist would have prescribed those drugs to someone whose only problem was being immature. There's also a throwaway joke right in the pilot episode about a suicide attempt that "inconvenienced a lot of people."

I had completely forgotten about the reference to the suicide attempt.  Ok, that's serious - unless her mother has misinterpreted and is then going overboard with her misinterpretation, which is also possible.  I don't exactly think her mother has the best perspective on Rebecca.  IF her mom is wrong, then I think I can still entertain the idea that the "crazy" is meant to be an ironic statement about how quickly we label people.  Certainly, singing about a sexy French depression (or being medicated) doesn't automatically lead me to believe Rebecca is seriously mentally ill.

 

My theory makes more sense to me than the idea that a show wants to do a comedy about a person who is actually seriously mentally ill but they don't want to admit it.  But, to each their own.

Edited February 2, 2016 by ToxicUnicorn