S01.E09: I'm Going To The Beach With Josh And His Friends!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In an attempt to impress join Josh's friend group, Rebecca rents a party bus to take the group to the beach. On the trip, Rebecca learns more about her new friends than she expected and makes a surprising revelation herself.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddmslq0S63w

 

Clip:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My takeaway from this is that going to the beach = White Josh without a shirt again!

 

Inside the episode:

Edited January 25, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Rhetorica]

Not a good opener for the second half of the season. Especially, for those who may have tuned in after Rachel's award. I found myself depressed when I usually find myself smiling. I did like the West Covena reprise. That's about all.

[hogwash]

I'm so happy this show is back. I got so much secondhand embarrassment from this freaking episode. Wow. 

 

EDIT: I did really like this episode. The reprise was really beautiful. Josh is an adorable puppy. Rebecca admitting that she was in love with Josh was such an amazing step for her. Horrifying to watch but really really good. Josh and Rebecca really get each other but I can't, in good conscience, want them together. Not yet anyway.

Edited January 26, 2016 by hogwash

[Rinaldo]

It's to a great extent a sad episode. That doesn't mean it's a bad episode. I liked it, and I adored the "West Covina" reprise.

[Primetimer]

Valencia reveals herself to be even meaner -- but also smarter -- than previously believed.

Read the story

[Irlandesa]

I think it was a good episode to come back on.  Sure, it was sad in some ways but there was at least a breakthrough at the end.  And there was so much to laugh at even thought it was cringe worthy.  My goodness, when she did that dance.  I was dying.

[Rinaldo]

Rachel tweeted at the end, "And just like that, the show will never be the same." She had teased in an interview that there was a game-changing event in the episode, and they had hours of discussion about how it would affect the series if they went there. So I stupidly pictured a disease, or injury, or something dire in that vein. This made much more sense.

[jecibels]

So I wasn't 100% feeling this episode at the beginning. Valencia's song may be my least favorite so far, although I'll definitely give it another shot when I rewatch tomorrow. However, I'd say by the second half I was back on board. I loved the awkwardness. I loved the sadness. I loved loved the revelation and I ADORED the West Covina reprise. I'm SO happy that Rebecca has finally admitted she loves him. It's so huge. 

 

I really relate to Rebecca's struggle to find friends in adulthood. It's such a real problem. I'm always fantasizing the ideal of the perfect "friend group" and it's been hard to come to terms with the fact that that's probably not an attainable reality for me in adulthood (much as I might try to force my Book Club to hang out all the time). 

 

This show does such a good job of making me vacillate between Greg and Josh every other episode. At this point, I'm firmly on team Whoever-Rebecca-Wants, which, right now, means I'm totally pro-Josh. But I'm sure I'll rewatch 104 in a few days and be back on Team Greg. 

 

I'm so excited for next week.

Edited January 26, 2016 by jecibels

[Eyes High]

As well done as this was, I'm hitting my secondhand embarrassment limit with this show. We're talking The Office levels of secondhand embarrassment. The UK Office.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[Rinaldo]

Usually I'm the first to flee when secondhand embarrassment lurks, but I wasn't bothered by this. For one thing, despite her pole dance being so heavily featured in the promos, it was a very small part of the episode -- maybe 25 seconds.

 

I haven't rewatched it -- is my memory right that we had only one new song this time (Valencia's)?

[Snarklepuss]

I once belonged to a chat group that use the phrase "dumb chills" to mean second-hand embarrassment, or feeling embarrassed for someone else.  It's actually in the Urban Dictionary:

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dumb%20chills

 

That said, this episode was one big dumb chill for me!  I was caught between feeling sorry for Rebecca and feeling like she was a little too self indulgent with the "poor pitiful me" stuff.  She really does bring it on herself, though.  But yay to the breakthrough about Josh!  If this is truly a game-changer episode she may actually become depressed, seek help and go back on meds. as a result of her self awareness.  But that would put an end to all the fun.  Rebecca has to stay crazy for the show to be as funny as it is, so I predict going back in denial again, or something to keep her from facing it.  Josh himself is still in denial about his own feelings about "Becs", obviously.

 

In all, I'm glad the show is back.  I didn't find this episode all that depressing.  I found myself laughing openly often.  My husband loves this show and I never thought he would.

As to Valencia being meaner and smarter than once believed, by who?  I always believed it.

[red12]

I guess I'm the only one who looks at Valencia and does not see "hot". I do not get it; especially not in Southern California. She also has zero charisma with the songs.

[Eyes High]

I'm starting to come around to Josh/Rebecca, at least "on paper" (I don't think the actors have that much chemistry).

 

I don't think Greg is a bad guy, but it seems pretty clear at this point that he is deeply unhappy and pretty unpleasant to be around (although it's hard to know to what extent that unpleasantness is a factor of his unhappiness or part of his personality). It's a bit of an interesting approach. The cool, sardonic, witty banter guy--quick with a trenchant observation or a pointed barb--who uses humour and distancing to cover up his true feelings is a romcom fixture, but in reality, guys like Greg--negative, self-deprecating, gloomy, sour, etc.--are very difficult to live with. Even when they're in a "good" mood, their humour can be indistinguishable from cruelty; Greg calling Rebecca a liar and a hypocrite on their date and then being genuinely shocked when she took offense was a perfect example. The awesome thing is that the writers appear to be well aware of this truth. I'm not saying Greg is hopeless as a romantic partner--although he clearly needs to work his shit out, because right now he's mostly insufferable--but I think he would be a disaster for someone like Rebecca, who has so many insecurities and dark moods of her own. Someone like Heather, who's cool, calm, and collected, and who can let his moments of awfulness roll off her back, is a much better romantic partner.

 

As for Josh, who's so genuinely loving and warm, I can see why Rebecca's so crazy about him. Is her desperate pull to Josh's unconditional kindness and warmth the healthiest thing? Well, no. A lot of it is based in Rebecca's desperate need for approval, which Josh offers sweetly and unreservedly (as opposed to Greg's "You're weird but God help me, I want you anyway, be mine" pitch). Still, even a healthy, mentally balanced person in Rebecca's shoes would love Josh. Whatever Rebecca's issues, I can't fault her taste.

 

I guess I'm the only one who looks at Valencia and does not see "hot". I do not get it; especially not in Southern California.

 

I can't speak to Southern California tastes, but I can see why Valencia is considered "hot." Not beautiful, not cute, but hot. "Hot" is a checklist of certain things which, at least in North America in 2016, seem to dictate attractiveness in women: thinness, toned muscles, tanned skin, voluminous long hair, makeup, and tight, revealing clothing. If those essential criteria are met, facial beauty isn't all that important. You can be "hot" without being pretty. You can be beautiful without being "hot." Rebecca could barely see Valencia's face the first time she saw her at the grocery store, but she didn't need to see her face to call her the "hottest girl" she'd ever seen. All the necessary elements for "hotness"--big bouncy hair, skimpy, tight dress, thin and fit body, etc.--were there.

 

To be fair, it does seem strange when the actors playing the characters gushed over as being the most attractive in that show are...about as attractive as or even less attractive than some of the other actors? Josh is a good-looking guy, but Father Brah? I'd cross a continent for him, no question. The actress playing Heather is very pretty, but you don't see Rebecca creepily fixating on her. And so on.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[possibilities]

I liked it.

 

Who would have expected Rebecca's boss would hit it off with White Josh?

 

Except I'm still having trouble with Valencia's characterization. I get that it's crazy-making for her to see Josh and Rebecca be in love with each other and deny it. She's sensing it, and feels like they're BSing her. But that song was really harsh, and it's clear Rebecca isn't the only reason she's sour. I liked her earlier in the series, when she and Rebecca were friends and she admitted she liked having a girlfriend. Maybe the best case scenario is that the song reveals that she's sour because she's been betrayed a lot by other women. But we've seen nothing to suggest she even tries, and that she doesn't harbor a pretty horrible attitude, regardless. I mean, who hasn't been disappointed by someone? Maybe more than once! But we don't all turn into such relentlessly sour bitches. And most of us are still able to make friends despite past disappointments.

 

I thought it was rude as hell for everyone to ignore Rebecca after inviting her. She's really not the only person with social awkwardness in that crew.

[taragel]

I had a lot of mixed feelings on this episode for 80% of it because it was so heavy emotionally and there were barely any songs, and this is the first new episode people who got curious after Rachel's award wins might be tuning into. But the fact that Rebecca finally came out and literally told the truth--that she moved because she wanted the happy he described--made it one of my favorites in the end. It felt like a real breakthrough for Rebecca and the show. I love that the show declared that as her essential truth and then only afterward had her realize/admit she was in love with Josh (and I do think it was a realization in the moment, not something she *knew* beforehand, so she wasn't lying to Paula either), because Josh is sort of just her entry point at accessing her own unhappiness and trying to solve it. I also really just adore Josh's goodness and light. She was right about everything she said about him and that West Covina reprise was just gorgeous both musically (the harmony) and emotionally and really did function like a musical turning point should, which I loved. It also made me think maybe they WILL be endgame instead of Rebecca/Greg. 

 

Valencia's song was...not as successful as it could've been. I think even with as pointedly awful as it was, there are people who will not understand that it's an intentional critique and will just take it at face value.

 

I also think Paula's arc has been sloppier than it should be given how important she is to the narrative. I thought her sudden insistence that Rebecca declare her love for Josh was really over the top and a bit contrived given that she's been egging Rebecca on since the beginning. 

[Eyes High]

Except I'm still having trouble with Valencia's characterization. I get that it's crazy-making for her to see Josh and Rebecca be in love with each other and deny it. She's sensing it, and feels like they're BSing her. But that song was really harsh, and it's clear Rebecca isn't the only reason she's sour. I liked her earlier in the series, when she and Rebecca were friends and she admitted she liked having a girlfriend. Maybe the best case scenario is that the song reveals that she's sour because she's been betrayed a lot by other women. But we've seen nothing to suggest she even tries, and that she doesn't harbor a pretty horrible attitude, regardless. I mean, who hasn't been disappointed by someone? Maybe more than once! But we don't all turn into such relentlessly sour bitches. And most of us are still able to make friends despite past disappointments.

 

As the showrunner explained on Vulture, the song was making fun of a phenomenon the showrunner dubbed "girl negging": girls couching their aggression towards one another in passive-aggressive, helpful "suggestions," providing as an example a girl who earnestly told her when she was younger that she would never get a boyfriend if she didn't pluck her unibrow. I've never heard it called "girl negging" before,. It's close to what's called "shade" ("I don't have to tell you you're ugly because you know you're ugly"), but shade's a term specifically rooted in gay culture. Whatever you call it, though, it's definitely a real thing.

 

A great fictional example of "girl negging" is Joan vs. Peggy in Season 1 of Mad Men. In Season 1, feminine, gorgeous sexpot queen bee Joan, who rules the secretarial pool with a Mean Girl iron fist, who (like Valencia) favours tight clothing showing off her curves, who (like Valencia) only values power obtained though her sexual attractiveness to men and whose vision of success is marrying a wealthy man and retiring, butts heads with Peggy, the blunt, awkward, ambitious, and decidedly unseductive new girl at the office. Joan is baffled by Peggy's interest in copywriting as opposed to secretarial work. Peggy starts putting on weight in Season 1, which leads to this exchange:

 

Joan: I heard you were being considered for an account because a client's wife saw you and thought it would be okay if he worked with you.

Peggy: You know, you're not a stick.

Joan: And yet I never wonder what men think of me. You are hiding a very attractive young girl with too much lunch.

Peggy: I know what men think of you. That you're looking for a husband, and you're fun. And not in that order.

Joan: Peggy, this isn't China. There's no money in virginity.

Peggy: I'm not a virgin.

Joan: No. Of course not.

Peggy: I just realized something. You think you're being helpful.

 

Mad Men definitely gets it. It is a thing.

 

Also, when Peggy complains about being sexually harassed earlier in the season, Joan tells her that she's "not much," so she may as well enjoy it while it lasts. Seems like something Valencia would say.

 

So yes, it's a real thing. The writers were making fun of this particular phenomenon, although I guess that like Joan, Valencia viciously deploys "girl negging" because in her mind it allows her to maintain superiority: she buys into a patriarchal conception of female power, where the only female power of any significance is derived from male validation (specifically, male validation of sexual attractiveness), and that power can be achieved or maintained by tearing other women's looks and worthiness to men (again, as defined by their attractiveness and "virtue," thus the cheery "fat sluts" insult) down. The humour here is that it's done, as Joan does it, under a veil of solidarity and sisterhood. Never heard it expressed in song in quite so catchy fashion, though.

 

Because Valencia places so much emphasis on her looks being crucial for male attractiveness, and has put so much work into maintaining her hotness (her "I've been starving since 1998" comment was telling), she's going to lose her mind when Josh leaves her for shorter, heavier, less athletic, shorter-haired, "gross" Rebecca.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[taragel]

I had a lot of mixed feelings on this episode for 80% of it because it was so heavy emotionally and there were barely any songs, and this is the first new episode people who got curious after Rachel's award wins might be tuning into. But the fact that Rebecca finally came out and literally told the truth--that she moved because she wanted the happy he described--made it one of my favorites in the end. It felt like a real breakthrough for Rebecca and the show. I love that the show declared that as her essential truth and then only afterward had her realize/admit she was in love with Josh (and I do think it was a realization in the moment, not something she *knew* beforehand, so she wasn't lying to Paula either), because Josh is sort of just her entry point at accessing her own unhappiness and trying to solve it. I also really just adore Josh's goodness and light. She was right about everything she said about him and that West Covina reprise was just gorgeous both musically (the harmony) and emotionally and really did function like a musical turning point should, which I loved. It also made me think maybe they WILL be endgame instead of Rebecca/Greg. 

 

Valencia's song was...not as successful as it could've been. I think even with as pointedly awful as it was, there are people who will not understand that it's an intentional critique and will just take it at face value.

 

I also think Paula's arc has been sloppier than it should be given how important she is to the narrative. I thought her sudden insistence that Rebecca declare her love for Josh was really over the top and a bit contrived given that she's been egging Rebecca on since the beginning. 

[Eyes High]

It also made me think maybe they WILL be endgame instead of Rebecca/Greg.

 

Even if Greg/Rebecca are going to be endgame, Josh and Rebecca have to give a relationship a fair shake and Rebecca has to break up with Josh so that Rebecca can choose Greg For Real and so that Greg doesn't wind up looking like a consolation prize because Rebecca can't have Josh. It doesn't work if Rebecca just picks Greg because she doesn't have a chance to make it work with Josh; the show already went that route and rejected it outright. This is a romcom, dammit! There are rules.

 

I wouldn't read too much, therefore, into Josh/Rebecca looking a lot more viable. It's going to happen no matter where this show ends up for the reasons I stated. Moreover, it's possible that the writers are throwing their weight behind Josh/Rebecca to make their otherwise glaringly obvious Greg/Rebecca endgame a little murkier.

 

On the one hand, for a successful relationship, Rebecca needs to view Josh as a human being first and foremost as opposed to a beacon of goodness, a pathway to a happier, better life, and the embodiment of everything she craves (happiness, self-assurance, and stability). Dating someone whom you view as a symbol is never good, and viewing people as symbols seems to be a particular vice of Rebecca's (just as she wound up viewing Greg not as a potential romantic partner but as the human embodiment of a Healthy Choice and of safer, saner decisions), which I guess is not all that surprising given how narcissistic she can be. On the other hand, guys like Greg, as decent as they can be, are disasters as boyfriends until they work their shit out, and most of them never do.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[HunterHunted]

I remember reading this piece a couple of years ago. It was about Sephora and when they critique each other's appearance, it's called a "gift." Girl negging is a thing and Valencia is the exact kind of woman who would indulge in that behavior.

http://jezebel.com/353879/meet-jasmine-our-new-sephora-undercover-agent

Edited January 26, 2016 by HunterHunted

[possibilities]

I know what negging is, and that Valencia's song was commenting on it. But it makes me dislike Valencia, and I don't like that they've set things up with Valencia being basically a villain.

[arc]

Rachel tweeted at the end, "And just like that, the show will never be the same."

I saw that tweet and had to wait hours because I saw it timed for the east coast airing. =P  But I figured all along it was something about her coming clean -- I just thought maybe she would come clean to Josh or maybe even the whole friend group about being in love with Josh. What we got instead was smaller, but still powerful.

 

Even if Greg/Rebecca are going to be endgame, [...] This is a romcom, dammit! There are rules.

The aforementioned McKenna interview made me think, I think which guy Rebecca ends up with isn't the point of the romance. Arguably the love that drives the show is between Paula and Rebecca, and it's not a romantic one (esp since Rebecca semi-jokingly called Paula "mom"), but even with Paula as a kind of unhealthy enabler, it's still more honest and real than what's going on between Rebecca and Josh OR Rebecca and Greg.

[anonymiss]

I can't stand Greg--I'm shallow. I'm repulsed by his hair but also his self-righteousness. He's Ross Geller meets Paul Rudd without any of the cuteness.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Greg, you shut your mouth! Going to the beach is always an option! (says the former San Diego beach girl who now lives in Berkeley and wishes she could go to the beach in a bathing suit year round).

 

Hector, I feel you. I have to set a million alarms on my phone to wake up. But what happened to Bernard/Beans?

 

I liked Valencia's song, mostly because she sounded so much better in this one than she did in that yoga song she did at the very beginning of the season. They also did a good job portraying the type of catty bitch who is always putting down other girls. No wonder she doesn't have other female friends! That kind of attitude is not a new thing. I remember girls like her

 

I really get Rebecca wanting a group of friends. It's more difficult as an adult because as a kid, there are always people your age around just by virtue of going to school and whatever activities your parents put you in. It wasn't until after college that I realized my friend-meeting opportunities had significantly decreased. When you pair that with the way movies and tv shows tend to portray these tightknit BFF groups, it's frustrating when you don't have that. It must be even harder for Rebecca because she just moved and Josh was the only person she knew, which is one of the reasons she was clinging so hard to her delusional belief that she really just wanted to be friends with all of them. I mean, I believe her. She really does want to have a group of friends, but she was also refusing to admit the full extent of her feelings for Josh and why she had moved to California. I think that finally admitting it was a big step forward for her.

Edited January 26, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Jesse]

A minor point, but her description of the pole class she took in NYC made me laugh really really hard. 

[SeanC]

I don't think Greg is a bad guy, but it seems pretty clear at this point that he is deeply unhappy and pretty unpleasant to be around (although it's hard to know to what extent that unpleasantness is a factor of his unhappiness or part of his personality). It's a bit of an interesting approach. The cool, sardonic, witty banter guy--quick with a trenchant observation or a pointed barb--who uses humour and distancing to cover up his true feelings is a romcom fixture, but in reality, guys like Greg--negative, self-deprecating, gloomy, sour, etc.--are very difficult to live with. Even when they're in a "good" mood, their humour can be indistinguishable from cruelty; Greg calling Rebecca a liar and a hypocrite on their date and then being genuinely shocked when she took offense was a perfect example. The awesome thing is that the writers appear to be well aware of this truth. I'm not saying Greg is hopeless as a romantic partner--although he clearly needs to work his shit out, because right now he's mostly insufferable--but I think he would be a disaster for someone like Rebecca, who has so many insecurities and dark moods of her own. Someone like Heather, who's cool, calm, and collected, and who can let his moments of awfulness roll off her back, is a much better romantic partner.

Another aspect of Greg's characterization that I find interesting is his open dislike for West Covina.  In a lot of shows those sorts of aspirations would be meant to communicate that he's clearly the worthier choice for Rebecca, but here, I don't think it really does, because while Rebecca may be from the big city, she doesn't seem to miss it at all.  While she's unhappy with aspects of her social life in West Covina, you don't see her pining away for New York's cultural scene, restaurants, etc., or even in her professional life (she seems quite content to be the best lawyer in a smaller location, and evidently with much more reasonable hours).

 

Somewhat relatedly, I appreciate that the show has not fallen into the trap of portraying West Covina as some bumpkin backwater where the only thing anybody wants to do is leave (see, e.g., what Glee did with Lima, Ohio).

Edited January 26, 2016 by SeanC

[Rinaldo]

I'm not ever inclined to speculate about "endgame" in a show I'm enjoying; I'm content to take it as it comes. But I continue to be impressed by the way Josh an Greg are being developed in much less simplistic, more interesting ways that I anticipated at the start. Rachel Bloom said in a radio interview that she and Greg might be well suited to each other but not as they are right now, while Josh, a totally different personality type, is great at making her feel good without even realizing he's doing it. (And also, she said this early in the fall run: things keep developing and shifting.)

 

All of this about Greg is so well said that I'm going to quote it again:

I don't think Greg is a bad guy, but it seems pretty clear at this point that he is deeply unhappy and pretty unpleasant to be around (although it's hard to know to what extent that unpleasantness is a factor of his unhappiness or part of his personality). It's a bit of an interesting approach. The cool, sardonic, witty banter guy--quick with a trenchant observation or a pointed barb--who uses humour and distancing to cover up his true feelings is a romcom fixture, but in reality, guys like Greg--negative, self-deprecating, gloomy, sour, etc.--are very difficult to live with. Even when they're in a "good" mood, their humour can be indistinguishable from cruelty; Greg calling Rebecca a liar and a hypocrite on their date and then being genuinely shocked when she took offense was a perfect example. The awesome thing is that the writers appear to be well aware of this truth.

 

He's an example of someone I've seen on occasion in real life (and been myself -- far in the past, I hope), but I don't see very often on TV (Liz Lemon attending a high school reunion in 30 Rock is the other example that comes to mind): someone who's not one of the popular beautiful people, who tends to sit on the sidelines in social gatherings, delivering "witty" remarks at the expense of everyone else... imagining that nobody's listening anyway so nobody will be bothered. (Liz was astonished to realize that she'd been a "mean girl" in everyone else's eyes, and she never knew it.) Anyway, Greg seems to be this guy, only exacerbated by his own unhappiness as his life hasn't developed as he'd hoped. So he's more or less continually acerbic but surprised to be called on it.

 

Now it's time to learn more about Josh Wilson (as we can now call him).

[dubbel zout]

I liked Valencia's song, mostly because she sounded so much better in this one than she did in that yoga song she did at the very beginning of the season.

 

She must have been purposely AutoTuned to death on the yoga song. I loved the sisterhood song. It really described a large swath of women who pretend to support other women but are really just cutting them down.

 

I like that they are not afraid to make their characters look bad.

Same here. We have some background for why they're acting the way they do, which helps a lot.

 

i was really impressed with the pole dancing. That's not easy, and Bloom nailed it. It was all her, right?

 

I'm glad Rebecca finally admitted that she loved Josh, because now the show can dig into what it is that she loves. The nostalgia factor? His constant good humor and sunniness? Ultimately I don't see them together, because I don't think Josh is her intellectual equal, and I think that will be important to Rebecca once she gets past the initial bliss stage. But for now, a little simplicity seems right for her.

Edited January 26, 2016 by dubbel zout

[red12]

I don't think that was Rebecca pole dancing tricks. They did a good job shooting it, but at certain times, I could tell the dancer had a different face and was wearing a wig. The body double was very close though and very good at her job.

[Eyes High]

I know what negging is, and that Valencia's song was commenting on it. But it makes me dislike Valencia, and I don't like that they've set things up with Valencia being basically a villain.

 

Valencia's not exactly the villain when it comes to Josh/Rebecca. Some woman tries to steal her man, despite knowing well he's in a committed relationship, to the point of flirting with him in front of her, and then lays on the denial thick when anyone calls her on it? Not to mention that that same woman tried to befriend her under false pretenses.

 

With respect to her cattiness towards other women, though, as Rebecca would no doubt say, the bigger problem for Valencia is that she buys into a patriarchal power system which sets all women up as competitors for male attention and validation. To maintain her "power" in that system, she has to establish herself as the most attractive, thus the cutting remarks about other women's weight and sexuality. Thus her pride when she tells Rebecca that parents like Rebecca, but men love Valencia. However, Valencia's attitude--maintaining her hotness and cutting down all potential female competition with a quickness--will only take her so far. When (no spoilers, I'm just assuming) Josh leaves her for Rebecca, I'm thinking Valencia will have some soul-searching to do, since it will show her that the "system"--which dictates that Josh should have no interest in Rebecca, because Valencia is hotter than Rebecca--is broken.

 

It could also be that Valencia is just an awful human being who happens to buy into "nasty-ass patriarchal bullshit." I'm not convinced at this point, though.

 

I can't stand Greg--I'm shallow. I'm repulsed by his hair but also his self-righteousness. He's Ross Geller meets Paul Rudd without any of the cuteness.

 

Greg's unpleasantness renders him far less attractive to me, but I still think he's cute. As for Friends comparisons, though, he's clearly the Chandler Bing of the group: cerebral, self-deprecating, wildly insecure, constantly making jokes or negative comments at everyone's expense.

 

I liked Valencia's song, mostly because she sounded so much better in this one than she did in that yoga song she did at the very beginning of the season. They also did a good job portraying the type of catty bitch who is always putting down other girls. No wonder she doesn't have other female friends! That kind of attitude is not a new thing. I remember girls like her

 

Yes. All other things being equal, when a woman has no female friends, it's a red flag.

All of this about Greg is so well said that I'm going to quote it again:

He's an example of someone I've seen on occasion in real life (and been myself -- far in the past, I hope), but I don't see very often on TV (Liz Lemon attending a high school reunion in 30 Rock is the other example that comes to mind): someone who's not one of the popular beautiful people, who tends to sit on the sidelines in social gatherings, delivering "witty" remarks at the expense of everyone else... imagining that nobody's listening anyway so nobody will be bothered. (Liz was astonished to realize that she'd been a "mean girl" in everyone else's eyes, and she never knew it.) Anyway, Greg seems to be this guy, only exacerbated by his own unhappiness as his life hasn't developed as he'd hoped. So he's more or less continually acerbic but surprised to be called on it.

 

Very well said. It seems that Greg, for all his supposed "self-hate," doesn't even realize that he comes off the way that he does, which is hardly surprising given what we've seen of his dynamic with his father, who's just as wry, deflecting and sardonic as he is. He seems to see himself as a cool, fun, witty guy, as opposed to an unpleasant, mean person.

 

It was nicely realistic that dating a cute, nice girl like Heather hasn't magically made him a nicer or happier person. Of course, maybe the fact that he doesn't seem any happier now that he's dating Heather could be a sign that she's not right for him in the long run (barring something like clinical depression). When I started dating my partner, all my coworkers figured out what was going on long before I told them about my partner because they noticed that I was smiling all the time.

 

Ultimately I don't see them together, because I don't think Josh is her intellectual equal

 

 

Rebecca supposedly has an IQ of 164. If she waits around for her "intellectual equal" before pairing off, she'll be waiting a long time.

 

I understand what you're saying, though. In the long run, she'd probably be better suited with someone who is smarter than Josh. If Josh and Rebecca become a thing, it will be interesting to see if the disparity in their respective levels of intelligence causes friction.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[taragel]

Even if Greg/Rebecca are going to be endgame, Josh and Rebecca have to give a relationship a fair shake and Rebecca has to break up with Josh so that Rebecca can choose Greg For Real and so that Greg doesn't wind up looking like a consolation prize because Rebecca can't have Josh. It doesn't work if Rebecca just picks Greg because she doesn't have a chance to make it work with Josh; the show already went that route and rejected it outright. This is a romcom, dammit! There are rules.

 

 I'm a romance novel editor so I'm totally with you on the rules. **high fives ya** But the fact that this show is willing to not STRICTLY play by the rules but also do it cleverly enough that it doesn't seem contrived or misleading is one of the things I love about it. I don't actually know if Greg or Josh will be Rebecca's endgame (and yeah, maybe neither will be because her and Paula are the real love affair here, but I would be surprised if they didn't pay off at least one of those relationships at the end--even if it's not a HEA/walk into the sunset/together forever kind of thing.) It seemed so clear from the pilot that this was going to be the show where she wrongly fixates on one guy to overlook the great guy who's crushing on her--and that's not the case so far at all. I appreciate that the show has made Josh so much more than just a symbol to the point where I'm torn as to whether his positivity/enthusiasm or Greg's realism/cynicism are the best matches for Rebecca. I love that the show keeps shifting and developing these relationships and think it's really rare, as romance is usually integrated predictably or perfunctorily when a show has a bigger agenda (like mental health). 

 

I also selfishly hope the show gets another season so they can further explore all this stuff. Because an early ending would force them to reject a romance for Rebecca most likely, in favor of sorting out her mental health stuff and I'd like to see this show tackle both. I think they can. There's a myth often perpetuated in pop culture that people have to solve their own problems before they can find or worse, before they deserve, love. And while sure, it's great to be self-actualized and well-adjusted and have no struggles with depression or self-worth or whatever....it's not reality. If all the people who struggled with those issues had to do that before they found love or explored a loving relationship, 90% of the planet would probably be eternally single. So I really like that they're all crazy/messed-up to some degree and see what it looks like if/when they decide to give Rebecca a real on-going relationship. 

 

So many great discussion points here from everyone. I agree with ALL OF YOU. Lol. 

 

ETA: Also the fancier pole moves were a double. Bloom has a pic on her instagram of her and the dancer who did them.

 

She also shared on twitter that the episode was much different in its conception and when I asked why she said they were all taking separate cars/didn't have a party bus. Which surprised me because I figured this was also a cheaper/bottle episode for them and that's why it was done but also it must have been really different logistically AND emotionally. I can't imagine the build-up/release would have been nearly as good with separate cars.  

Edited January 26, 2016 by taragel

[Rinaldo]

Some of the pole dancing was Rachel, but when the camera didn't show her face, it was for a reason. Rachel herself credits her stunt double on Twitter and attaches a photo of the two of them side by side. (It was really a remarkably good physical match.)

 

I considered putting this in the "music" topic, but it pertains specifically to this episode, so here:

 

As we get further into the season, one nice development is that we're building up a repertoire of songs that can be given mini, almost subliminal, reprises at appropriate moments. Rebecca had her "Settle for him" in the porta-potty, there was that jokey "sexy gonna-do-it song" tag, and here we had Rebecca's touching "I have friends" at the start.

 

One of the all-time sweetest (in both senses) callbacks happened in this "West Covina" reprise. 

 

Remember back in the pilot when she first burst into song with
 

My life's about to change -- oh my gosh!

'Cause I'm hopelessly, desperately in love with... West Covina!

(at the moment the "JO'S FISH" sign was partially obscured to read "JO SH")? Here, 8 episodes later, Josh sang

It's Nirvana, it's Heaven, it's Mecca!

Yeah, I'm hopelessly, desperately in love with... West Covina!

(at the risk of underlining the obvious, the avoided rhyme both times). Very clever. And also a really beautiful moment in the show. After that kind of totally uncalculated warmth, who wouldn't love Josh?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rinaldo

[SeanC]

Valencia's not exactly the villain when it comes to Josh/Rebecca. Some woman tries to steal her man, despite knowing well he's in a committed relationship, to the point of flirting with him in front of her, and then lays on the denial thick when anyone calls her on it? Not to mention that that same woman tried to befriend her under false pretenses.

 

With respect to her cattiness towards other women, though, as Rebecca would no doubt say, the bigger problem for Valencia is that she buys into a patriarchal power system which sets all women up as competitors for male attention and validation. To maintain her "power" in that system, she has to establish herself as the most attractive, thus the cutting remarks about other women's weight and sexuality. Thus her pride when she tells Rebecca that parents like Rebecca, but men love Valencia. However, Valencia's attitude--maintaining her hotness and cutting down all potential female competition with a quickness--will only take her so far. When (no spoilers, I'm just assuming) Josh leaves her for Rebecca, I'm thinking Valencia will have some soul-searching to do, since it will show her that the "system"--which dictates that Josh should have no interest in Rebecca, because Valencia is hotter than Rebecca--is broken.

 

It could also be that Valencia is just an awful human being who happens to buy into "nasty-ass patriarchal bullshit." I'm not convinced at this point, though.

It's absolutely true that Valencia is right to dislike Rebecca, and if that was all it was, I wouldn't think anything more of it (the fact that Josh can't see what Valencia can pick up on probably exacerbates it).  And, at least in her first appearance, it seemed like that was what they were going for.

 

But subsequent episodes have really laid on thick with her negative qualities, even ones unrelated to the issues she has with other women (which are clearly meant to be feminist commentary, as the creative team has even said).  There's no reason that all of Josh's friends should make clear that they don't like her or Josh's relationship with her, as they've repeatedly done, except to flag that she's not very nice.

[Rinaldo]

She also shared on twitter that the episode was much different in its conception and when I asked why she said they were all taking separate cars/didn't have a party bus. Which surprised me...

Apparently a LOT changed as they were breaking/developing this episode. In one article (wish I could find it now) she said that a huge game-changing moment wasn't part of the original conception, and after someone suggested it, they had to consider how it would affect everything coming afterward. Possibly that's just the revealing of her lie about why/how she moved to West Covina. But it sounds more like her admission, at last, that she loves Josh. So they didn't know, at first, that that would happen in this episode.

 

Does it mean that we now need new lyrics for the opening credits, starting next week? After all, "it happens to be where Josh lives, but that's not why I'm here" no longer applies.

[arc]

She also shared on twitter that the episode was much different in its conception and when I asked why she said they were all taking separate cars/didn't have a party bus. Which surprised me because I figured this was also a cheaper/bottle episode for them and that's why it was done but also it must have been really different logistically AND emotionally. I can't imagine the build-up/release would have been nearly as good with separate cars.  

Just pitching what I imagine the original version would have been, it would have been two cars, there'd be constant cell phone conversation between the two, they'd stop and swap people midway through for some reason... it could have worked but yeah, logistically it'd definitely be way easier to film on a party bus where everyone's there and you can just roll down the blinds.

[tennisgurl]

Golden Globe Winner (LOVE typing that) Crazy Ex Girlfriend is back! 

 

I agree that it was a bit more sad than usual, but I do not think that is really a bad thing. It seemed that this was the set up for a new chapter in the show, with most of the supporting characters showing up, the big Love admission, and and the reprise of a few songs (I loved that the tune from I Have Friends was playing during various scenes on the party bus). Loved the return of West Covina. 

 

Right now, I am so on board for Rebecca/Josh, but I feel like that will change eventually. Really, I do not quite know how a relationship between them would work. They do have some things in common, and they get along really well, but it seems like Rebecca has built Josh up in her head so much, it might be hard for him to live up to what she pictured. Not that Josh is a bad guy, its just that no ones perfect, and if they were in a relationship, I wonder if things would be so smooth sailing. 

 

If Rebecca was a less nice person, she probably could have told Valencia that the gang only hang out with her because shes Joshes girlfriend. For all Rebecca does not have a friend group, she at least has Paula. Valencia seems like she has no one but Josh. Maybe thats one of the reasons they are still together, even though they dont really seem to fit, personality wise. Valencia does have some real reasons to not like or trust Rebecca, but she is such a classic Mean Girl, its hard to feel bad for her. Would the show be better if Josh had a nice girlfriend? It would be a bit more of a risk, as it would make Rebecca maybe a bit less rootable, but I have no idea.  

 

I really liked this episode, even if it was a bit hard to watch. Its good to be back in the amazing wonderland that is West Covina.

Edited January 26, 2016 by tennisgurl

[dubbel zout]

I figured this was also a cheaper/bottle episode for them

 

I was thinking this, too. 

 

Does it mean that we now need new lyrics for the opening credits, starting next week? After all, "it happens to be where Josh lives, but that's not why I'm here" no longer applies.

 

"It's more nuanced than that" covers that line, I think, because it isn't just about Josh being here.

[Snarklepuss]

Valencia's not exactly the villain when it comes to Josh/Rebecca. Some woman tries to steal her man, despite knowing well he's in a committed relationship, to the point of flirting with him in front of her, and then lays on the denial thick when anyone calls her on it? Not to mention that that same woman tried to befriend her under false pretenses.

 

I agree, but I think the show likes to alternate between Valencia as bitch and non-bitch too.  It's not just Rebecca's behavior but also that Valencia is one of those uber-possessive women who'd scratch your eyes out if she thought you were any real threat or maybe even if you weren't.  Otherwise, she's a pussycat, LOL.  Then again, I thought her hysterically funny song was a window into how she sees the rest of the world compared to herself.  I initially saw Valencia as a caricature of a certain type of woman, and they are certainly playing with that with her.  I don't think the show is 100% consistent with that portrayal but then again she may just be "more nuanced than that".  Which is OK with  me, she doesn't have to be a total villainess or she'd feel like a cartoon character.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[theatremouse]

This episode threw me off a little because he did have all the cringey moments, and even the cringey-meant-to-be-funny I usually can't bear. But this show usually makes me literally laugh out loud more than once, which is rare, so I didn't let myself turn away. And this episode was more sad, or more continuously sad that others, but it did feel earned to me. So, the sad angle didn't bother me as much as the cringe. And I'm assuming the next one, even though things have now changed emotionally for the characters, will hopefully be more directly funny. I mean, I love me some character development, but tonally they need some offset since it's a comedy.

I also realllllly liked the way they handled Rebecca's reveal because even though she lied, we already know she's lied before, she even lied with her boss right there at the ready to contradict her, and I loved it because Rebecca didn't think of it as lying. She was almost...desperately trying to make her story true if she just kept saying it. And then after admitting the lie and acknowledging it for what it was, still even when she was telling Josh she thought she'd sound crazy, she still wasn't completely clean. She wasn't just saying she moved there for Josh. She still basically denied that. But everything she said about being in NY and depressed and the Happy Josh said was waiting in West Covina, she meant that. She just left out part. Like the theme song says, it is more nuanced than that, but when you hear her sing "it's more nuanced than that" it comes out like, of course it's not, that's what you're saying to not sound crazy. So all of that rolled up into this scene but in a very real way. And it lined up with the intelligence they've established for the character. Even though this show can be very broad, obviously, it's a musical, that whole thing played very real to me. I really appreciated it. She's saying these things not just to snow people, not just to not seem crazy; she desperately wants these things to be true and reasonable. Sure Josh is presented as kind of dim, but that he believes her and finds it totally reasonable actually doesn't stretch credulity for me is one of the reasons I love this show.

I loathe an idiot-plot (where the plot requires people to be way too dumb to play out the way it does) and in this case, even when things are wacky or Rebecca way crosses a line or gets caught, it has not yet required anyone to be "too dumb". She lies well enough, or I should say, explains away juuuust enough, and is so earnest, and yet yes so desperate, it just kind of works. I find it fascinating. I feel like the neighbor back when her immediate response was to want to study Rebecca.

Edited January 27, 2016 by theatremouse

[anonymiss]

Greg's unpleasantness renders him far less attractive to me, but I still think he's cute. As for Friends comparisons, though, he's clearly the Chandler Bing of the group: cerebral, self-deprecating, wildly insecure, constantly making jokes or negative comments at everyone's expense.

I didn't religiously watch Friends but I laughed with and rooted for Chandler, maybe because of Matthew Perry's delivery, appearance, and lines he was given. I compare Greg to Ross and Paul Rudd's characters because of how he looks, some of his acting choices, and his "healthy choice guy" role. From what I've seen, the actor is better looking than the character because he doesn't style his hair like that and has a much improved wardrobe and, I imagine, disposition.

[Irlandesa]

I thought it was rude as hell for everyone to ignore Rebecca after inviting her. She's really not the only person with social awkwardness in that crew.

I didn't think it was deliberately rude.  For a long ride, people just were letting the conversations happen.  And once those conversations had conversed themselves out, I'm betting more mingling would take place. It's just that Rebecca wanted to immediately have the PARTY bus instead of chillingi and checking her phone which I would do--because I'm awful at mingling and would be left out as well.

 

Even if Greg/Rebecca are going to be endgame, Josh and Rebecca have to give a relationship a fair shake and Rebecca has to break up with Josh so that Rebecca can choose Greg For Real and so that Greg doesn't wind up looking like a consolation prize because Rebecca can't have Josh. It doesn't work if Rebecca just picks Greg because she doesn't have a chance to make it work with Josh; the show already went that route and rejected it outright. This is a romcom, dammit! There are rules.

 

I wouldn't read too much, therefore, into Josh/Rebecca looking a lot more viable. It's going to happen no matter where this show ends up for the reasons I stated. Moreover, it's possible that the writers are throwing their weight behind Josh/Rebecca to make their otherwise glaringly obvious Greg/Rebecca endgame a little murkier.

While there are elements of romance, I really don't see this as a romcom.  I don't think the show needs to do Josh/Rebecca to validate Rebecca's later romantic choices.  Rebecca's "love" of Josh is based on idealism right now. All the show needs to do is establish that Rebecca has dropped the idea that this idealized version of Josh is her soulmate.  That can be done through having them get together and breaking up.  But that's not the only way for it to be done.

 

I think Greg, Rebecca and Josh are interesting.  None of them are really right for one another right now.  Heather is good for Greg or at least can handle Greg because she's kind of above it.  He could break up with her tomorrow and you just get the sense that she wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over it.  And that is the kind of partner Greg needs because he really is as unhappy as NYC Rebecca was.   I think he started out fine but the frustrations over school and his father have made him more bitter and he can't hide it.

 

Then there's Josh.  Josh was really sweat at the end of the episode but my concerns about him for Rebecca aren't necessarily intellectual concerns, although that might play a part.  But rather, there is a part of him that likes things his way.  I think he likes Rebecca.  I don't think he wants to be with her.  Valencia openly revealed how mean spirited her intentions were by inviting Rebecca along and Josh didn't seem to care.  He still wanted to hide that he and Rebecca connected over something as innocuous as liking West Covina.  And I don't think Valencia cares that they're only hanging out with her because she's dating Josh. I think she knows that.  She's datin the "leader of the pack" and as such, she gets special girlfriend privileges that some of the "pack," like Greg, don't get.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Eyes High]

While there are elements of romance, I really don't see this as a romcom.

 

I wouldn't be fooled by the mental illness angle. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, etc. etc. It's basically a romcom with a bit of a 30 Rock sensibility--a protagonist defensively slinging around feminist lingo, not to mention that the Dr. Phil hallucination was eerily reminiscent of Liz Lemon hallucinating Oprah on a plane--which is not surprising given that Aline Brosh McKenna wrote The Devil Wears Prada and 27 Dresses and that Rachel Bloom has mentioned that she was heavily influenced by Tina Fey.

 

While there are a number of TV shows that aren't necessarily romcoms with the "hotshot professional moves from flashy urban setting to hometown or to a smaller town" premise--Northern Exposure, Providence, Judging Amy, Everwood, Men In Trees, etc. etc.--and while there are a number of TV shows with the "protagonist makes impulsive decision leading to a big life change based on sentimental reasons" premise (Felicity, Everwood as well, e.g.), I'd say the show is basically (genderswapped) Ed meets Hart of Dixie. In the former show, the male protagonist is a New York lawyer who has a breakdown and decides to relocate permanently to his quaint Ohio hometown to practice law when he makes an impulsive decision to pursue his high school crush. (There was an ongoing debate between the characters as to whether this decision and Ed's pursuit of his crush were romantic or fucked up, lest you think that CEG's take on it is novel.) In the latter, a New York female doctor after suffering professional setbacks accepts a position in small town Alabama, where she's torn between a handsome lawyer, a fellow New York professional refugee who happens to be engaged to a woman who instantly identifies the doctor as a threat, and a sarcastic bartender (with whom she has a makeout session in the pilot) with an alcoholic father.

 

I really like this show, but strip away the mental illness gloss, the musical numbers, the diversity, and the fact that the heroine is more professionally accomplished than both of her potential suitors, and it's like every basic romcom over the past 20 years or so, and, as I said, there are rules.

 

On another note, I really liked the writing for Greg and Josh's fight. The insults they flung at each other were based on characterization the writers have been carefully building up, so the jabs hit the mark (Greg is a sarcastic dick, Josh is immature, etc.). The other part I liked was that the insults became so cruel; as a poster observed on the Quotes thread, this was the type of fight you would expect between people who had been very close for many years and would therefore know each others' weaknesses and insecurities backwards and forwards. Josh telling Greg that it isn't Josh's fault that Greg's mother left him and that he was living with his dad was downright vicious. (I did notice that Josh didn't mention Greg's dad's health status in Greg's list of woes. Is it because bringing that up would be too low even for Josh, or is it because Greg hasn't told anyone? Josh did suggest in this episode that Greg keeping secrets was "typical Greg." On the other hand, Josh has been to Greg's house, so he's presumably seen the oxygen tank.)

 

It was also interesting to see Greg and Josh's insecurities come out in this episode.

 

Greg hates that Josh is the alpha of the group ("Why do we always have to do what you want to do?") and that he himself lacks the charm and popularity that Josh possesses. He also seems to think that he would have had a shot with Rebecca had it not been for Josh vomiting his charisma and charm all over her ("Channing" her, I guess), and so he resents Josh for that as well (and accordingly hates himself for not being the charming, popular alpha that Josh embodies). Greg also really loses his temper when Josh threw his low status (working in a bar) in his face, thus his protest that he is taking night classes.

 

Josh hates Greg's pretentious and/or intellectual pursuits and gets angry when Greg insults his intelligence. (He didn't bat an eye when Rebecca told him of her IQ and accomplishments a few episodes back, but I wonder if the difference between them in this respect will be a problem later on.) He also hates that Greg acts "above it all" and in particular that Greg hates a place that Josh loves so much. I wonder if there's some part of Josh who gets his back up when Greg keeps trashing West Covina because he fears that maybe on some level Greg is right. (If he was truly secure in the knowledge of West Covina's superiority, why would he care what Greg thought?). And of course, he is weirded out by the knowledge that Greg and Rebecca "hooked up" (although I'm surprised Rebecca called it that, because I always thought "hooking up" meant sex).

Edited January 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[taragel]

And then after admitting the lie and acknowledging it for what it was, still even when she was telling Josh she thought she'd sound crazy, she still wasn't completely clean. She wasn't just saying she moved there for Josh. She still basically denied that entirely. But everything she said about being in NY and depressed and the Happy Josh said was waiting in West Covina, she meant that. She just left out part.

 

See, personally, I don't think she left anything out at that moment. She didn't move there for Josh. He was the conduit for her to find a new way to change her life. I don't think she was in love with him after seeing him for five minutes on the street in New York. She moved because she was obsessing on him and nostalgia for a happy time in her own life and what he said about WC as the place to find your happy. Maybe it wasn't on a totally conscious level for her (it probably wasn't honestly) but I don't think that means she was actively lying about the idea that she really moved there for Josh and that was her real motivating factor. Everyone else tried to assign that motive to her but truly she wanted the escape, the happy, the change. That's why I think the show made her revelation about Josh to Paula secondary (because IT IS secondary). Because she didn't know till that minute, after she'd gotten to know him again and bonded with him over Boba and found she really liked his outlook on life and got to know what a nice, sweet guy he is, that she actually fell in love with him. What she felt for him before was a compulsion/obssession really fueled by other things and emotions, but now she realizes she's come to really love Josh for himself not what he represents. Now he's a real person to her and that will likely change a lot of things. 

 

 And I don't think Valencia cares that they're only hanging out with her because she's dating Josh. I think she knows that.  She's datin the "leader of the pack" and as such, she gets special girlfriend privileges that some of the "pack," like Greg, don't get.

 

I would love to see some flashbacks to how Valencia and Josh first got together. Because they said something in a previous episode like they've been a couple on and off since middle school. So after all those years, I'm not sure Josh's friends' dislike of her makes a ton of sense. I'd expect them to be somewhat nicer, closer with her, if she's really part of their "crew" and not just "Josh's girlfriend."

[Rinaldo]

I really like this show, but strip away the mental illness gloss, the musical numbers, the diversity, and the fact that the heroine is more professionally accomplished than both of her potential suitors, and it's like every basic romcom over the past 20 years or so, and, as I said, there are rules.

That's a lot to strip away. I consider that stuff more essential than a gloss, and as in any genre, there are "rules" only till someone develops a new model that does without them (or invents new ones). In this case, for instance, what seemed "obvious" from the pilot -- that we would have one magnetic but shallow guy she was attracted to, and a less glamorous, more reliable guy who she would finally discover was really the one for her -- hasn't turned out to be the case. Things have been shifting and refocusing intriguingly, and I prefer that to fitting story lines into some pre-existing mold.

[BooBear]

Right now, I am so on board for Rebecca/Josh, but I feel like that will change eventually. Really, I do not quite know how a relationship between them would work. They do have some things in common, and they get along really well, but it seems like Rebecca has built Josh up in her head so much, it might be hard for him to live up to what she pictured. Not that Josh is a bad guy, its just that no ones perfect, and if they were in a relationship, I wonder if things would be so smooth sailing.

 

I would love it if they did get those crazy kids together and then Rebecca realizes she and Josh don't work in reality. I think Josh offers her a positive break and that is what is so attractive to her but on a daily basis, they might not fit. I forgot this episode was on and just watched it on Demand -- yikes -- painful. The only part I enjoyed was the reprise at the end with Josh. I did find it particularly painful and funny that Rebecca kept losing someone to talk to on the bus. Been there... 

[Raja]

Another aspect of Greg's characterization that I find interesting is his open dislike for West Covina.  In a lot of shows those sorts of aspirations would be meant to communicate that he's clearly the worthier choice for Rebecca, but here, I don't think it really does, because while Rebecca may be from the big city, she doesn't seem to miss it at all.  While she's unhappy with aspects of her social life in West Covina, you don't see her pining away for New York's cultural scene, restaurants, etc., or even in her professional life (she seems quite content to be the best lawyer in a smaller location, and evidently with much more reasonable hours).

 

Somewhat relatedly, I appreciate that the show has not fallen into the trap of portraying West Covina as some bumpkin backwater where the only thing anybody wants to do is leave (see, e.g., what Glee did with Lima, Ohio).

I haven't seen all the episodes but being from the Southland I am thinking what.  The only difference of West Covina is a line on a political map, you could almost call it a neighborhood in Los Angeles but the old political line classifies it as a suburb in the sprawl instead of one big mega city. Instead of having a choke point of a bridge or tunnel crossing to get into and out of Manhattan  she would have a commute and choke point on the 10 or the 60 freeway from LA's cultural scene and the big firms serving the Pacific Rim

[Eolivet]

See, personally, I don't think she left anything out at that moment. She didn't move there for Josh. He was the conduit for her to find a new way to change her life. I don't think she was in love with him after seeing him for five minutes on the street in New York. She moved because she was obsessing on him and nostalgia for a happy time in her own life and what he said about WC as the place to find your happy. Maybe it wasn't on a totally conscious level for her (it probably wasn't honestly) but I don't think that means she was actively lying about the idea that she really moved there for Josh and that was her real motivating factor. Everyone else tried to assign that motive to her but truly she wanted the escape, the happy, the change. That's why I think the show made her revelation about Josh to Paula secondary (because IT IS secondary).

 

YES. Thank you -- this is how I have always seen Rebecca's motivations for moving. That it was the nostalgia of the happier, simpler time -- when she was truly happy -- and Josh is just a symbol of that time. That Rebecca had an unhappy, dreary, soulless life in New York, and seeing Josh again reminded her of when she was truly happy -- at drama camp, where she was free to be herself. I think Rebecca has been chasing a feeling, manifested onto a person.

 

Why I don't think Rebecca was truly lying at the beginning is because we saw a flashback of her relationship with Josh at camp -- and I thought he was clearly not as into her as she was into him. Which is why I think it's funny that he remembers her (and has characterized her) as his "childhood sweetheart" -- it's the pull of nostalgia and childhood, and the longing for a simpler life. That Josh moved back to his childhood home and is still with his high school girlfriend, to me, says a lot about his character.

 

I know "it's a lot more nuanced than that," but what has always been appealing about this show to me, is a woman who clearly either chose or was forced into a career and life path that didn't fit her early on in life is now getting a second chance at...adolescence and growing up. Rebecca, to me, is a stunted adolescent living in a professional adult woman's body (there's a reason, to me, that the quasi-parental convo with Paula at the end rang so true). But Josh is a stereotypical teenage boyfriend -- he's good-looking and nice, and it doesn't matter if you have different outlooks, because it's all about "hanging out" and nobody ever talks about the future.

 

I understand mental health plays a role, but while others see a romcom in this show, I see a classic coming-of-age story.

[xander874]

 

I feel like they do not really know what to do with Heather

Yeah, I like her, but Paula seems to have taken on the friend role (how did she get to the beach so quick???) and they kind of threw her into Greg's orbit. Still it's early and hopefully we have time to develop her.

 

I actually like Valencia. She's a good foil for Rebecca when she's not super evil and she puts her in her place, because let's face it, Rebecca is very, very quirky. And I want to like Greg, but he needs to be toned down a bit. I always find myself rooting for the other person in his arguments. I realize these characters are extremes, but it makes me hard to like anyone.  Except White Josh. He can be there anytime (and preferably shirtless).

[Rinaldo]

 

it was the nostalgia of the happier, simpler time -- when she was truly happy -- and Josh is just a symbol of that time. 

 

 I see a classic coming-of-age story.

I like this perspective a lot. It's not all the show is about, clearly, but I do think that Rebecca seeing Josh as the representative of "when were you last truly happy?" is right on. (It's also what Rachel has said in interviews, but I don't want to push "authorial intent" too hard, as shows may evolve.) 

 

And coming of age is indeed part of it, as I see it. Maybe for the others as well? She has postponed her adolescent experiences by burying herself in work. The others, in their various ways, may have extended theirs by the inertia of staying in their home town and just "hanging out" as they always have without thinking about any but temporary sorts of jobs (no disrespect to yoga or gym instructors intended). The second half of the season may be interesting if we explore that more. (Or I may be wrong, of course.)

Except White Josh. He can be there anytime (and preferably shirtless).

Rachel tweeted that for time reasons, they had to cut a scene where Rebecca kept avoiding dancing with WhiJo on the bus, and that she got a kick out of how her hatred of him was one of the constants in the series.

I always thought "hooking up" meant sex

I was momentarily confused by that too, and then remembered that on their date at the house party, she tried to give him a hand job (and would have succeeded if he hadn't called a halt). (Apparently in the original Showtime edit, she did succeed.) I guess that's enough intimacy for them not to quibble over the "hooking up" accusation.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Rinaldo