S04.E10: Blood Debts

[Guest]

Dear flashbacks,

 

Please die.

 

Sincerely, Me.

[foreverevolving]

Dear flashbacks,

 

Please die.

 

Sincerely, Me.

Maybe the one in the grave are the flashbacks?

[Chaser]

That tension in the limo.

 

I have a hard time believing if it was Diggle, Thea or Mama Smoak one of them wouldn't be trying to comfort the other. Or each other in Diggle's case. I mean things would have to be pretty awful between them.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I missed her not wearing the engagement ring, but she did seem frosty in the limo, so it does look like she and Oliver will break-up before then.  Not sure why, but I think it is safe to say that it will probably be Oliver's fault.

Because he has a kid he's planning to visit and is lying to her about it? And asked her to marry him, aka make her a stepmother, while still lying to her about it? 

[Velocity23]

[bethy]

Maybe the person in the grave is Laurel. Here's why I think maybe (and am hope, hope, hoping):

 

--Oliver releases Anarchy and tells him to kill Dhark; Laurel shames him with the whole, "You've released a psychotic killer - how dare you?" speech. Oliver throws Sara in her face. Laurel's response, "That's different." Which, by the way, NO, IT'S NOT. It's still you thinking you know better than everyone else and doing whatever you damn well please, whatever the consequences. JUST LIKE OLIVER.

--Oliver released said psychotic killer in response to Felicity's injuries.

--If Anarchy or Damian then kill Laurel, then it would be Oliver's responsibility - because he released Anarchy and because Anarchy didn't do what Oliver wanted, Damian is still alive.

--I can see Felicity having the reaction she did in the limo if it was Laurel in the grave - she and Oliver are broken up, he released Laurel's killer because of her. Plus she and Laurel are, like, besties now, right?

--Oliver's grim, but not distraught, because he cared about Laurel at one point and because he knows it's his responsibility that Laurel's in the grave. 

--It makes sense that Felicity's not at the grave, because Oliver has "priority" if you will in terms of his history with Laurel. 

--Barry's there for Oliver, not Felicity.

 

I'm sure there are holes there, but let me dream.

[BkWurm1]

 I think Felicity seemed angrier than Oliver. I think it is her mom in the grave, which is moronic.

As is the break-up.

That sadly was my first impression.  It could be Lance still though if Donna and Quentin suddenly get really close and her mom is super happy and has her happiness taken from her.  We REALLY need to find out if the actors at this point know who is in the grave. 

 

For the record, though I'm not sure, I don't believe the women of Jewish faith are supposed to wear jewelry to mourning events like funerals or shivah.

I looked it up and yeah, except for wedding rings, the rule is no jewelry but it sounds like it's also proof that they are broken up. 

 

Uhm in regards to Felicity in the promo

it looks like she just left treatment early to help the team after a bullet broke her spine. She can take all the oxies she wants, that's not a drug problem.

Maybe the

pills cause the hallucinations?

 

 

 

I see it all so differently than many of these comments.  Oliver's behavior to me is what I would expect.  His way of mourning or dealing with pain/fear is to go out and find the bad guy/take action.  I didn't imagine him sitting by her bed in the hospital and they seemed to make it clear Felicity would not have either.

I have to think that while Felicity's life was hanging in the balance that Oliver did stay at Felicity's side and that is was only after death wasn't hanging at her door that he took off. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe the person in the grave is Laurel. Here's why I think maybe (and am hope, hope, hoping):

 

--Oliver releases Anarchy and tells him to kill Dhark; Laurel shames him with the whole, "You've released a psychotic killer - how dare you?" speech. Oliver throws Sara in her face. Laurel's response, "That's different." Which, by the way, NO, IT'S NOT. It's still you thinking you know better than everyone else and doing whatever you damn well please, whatever the consequences. JUST LIKE OLIVER.

--Oliver released said psychotic killer in response to Felicity's injuries.

--If Anarchy or Damian then kill Laurel, then it would be Oliver's responsibility - because he released Anarchy and because Anarchy didn't do what Oliver wanted, Damian is still alive.

--I can see Felicity having the reaction she did in the limo if it was Laurel in the grave - she and Oliver are broken up, he released Laurel's killer because of her. Plus she and Laurel are, like, besties now, right?

--Oliver's grim, but not distraught, because he cared about Laurel at one point and because he knows it's his responsibility that Laurel's in the grave. 

--It makes sense that Felicity's not at the grave, because Oliver has "priority" if you will in terms of his history with Laurel. 

--Barry's there for Oliver, not Felicity.

 

I'm sure there are holes there, but let me dream.

I wouldn't think he'd say it's not his fault in this scenario, bc it pretty literally would be his fault if he released the psychotic killer who killed her.

[apinknightmare]

I wouldn't think he'd say it's not his fault in this scenario, bc it pretty literally would be his fault if he released the psychotic killer who killed her.

 

Oliver let Anarchy out initially, but he was recaptured and Thea let him go. 

[popgoesculture]

Okay, apparently I accidentally double posted my reaction and then deleted BOTH postings... I blame my irritation with this ep. I apologize if you're reading this twice.

 

Overall, I share the same frustration that so many have posted about. If you're going to have a character shot (and not immediately killed, a la Tommy/Moira/Sara), then you need to take the time to show how the shooting affects the team as a whole. No one in this ep acted like someone they love and care about was in the hospital, not in a believable way. Why not show us their reactions to hearing the news of the shooting? Show them in the waiting room and coming together to support each other as well as Felicity? Instead, we get rushed and terribly paced storylines of each character turning inwards -- Thea and her bloodlust/"Should I date Alex" round 97; Diggle and his "I can't believe he's my brother"; Laurel and her "oh yeah, I'm an officer of the law and I remember that when it's convenient for me/the writers," and Oliver hunting Darkh. 

 

Otherwise what is the point of this story? I need to care about these characters, and instead, it just made me mad and irritated with them all. The moments where Donna and Felicity seemed upset -- these two women who were abandoned before -- skated by in an instant. The only one who seemed there was Quentin, since he was hugging Donna when she was clearly upset (and had been at the hospital throughout this whole ordeal). 

 

The whole dramatic potential of the shooting is basically wasted. Why rush through this? Why not use this moment to show how your characters are affected by this? My favorite ep of the West Wing is an episode that involves the cast mainly sitting in a waiting room, hoping their loved ones will make it. 

 

 

Dear flashbacks,

Please die.

Sincerely, Me.

 

Maybe the one in the grave are the flashbacks?

 

Maybe the flashbacks killed whoever/whatever is in the grave (like the viewers' patience)? Explains why Felicity is so mad...

[TwistedandBored]

The episode needed more of Felicity to be less boring. I am also glad they showed us Felicity in the FF. I was seriously getting tired of seeing article after article and fanboy theories about her. Suck it!!! 

[Chaser]

I was hoping this episode would be in the way of 3x10. Exploring reactions and Felicity moving thru the stages of grief. Instead we got this.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver let Anarchy out initially, but he was recaptured and Thea let him go. 

Oh, I was just talking about the theorized scenario, that said: "--Oliver released said psychotic killer in response to Felicity's injuries."

[tennisgurl]

That supposedly "deserted" island has turned out to have so many people running around, it could apply for statehood. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Wow...this show is kinda terrible. Oliver really, really should not be a husband. The show has proven she can't trust him to be honest with her and now she can't even count on him to be there when the worst happens. Then she just completely forgives him for it like a Stepford wife. And how they managed to drain every ounce of emotion out of what should have been slam dunk character angst is almost skillful.

[blixie]

That was a terrible episode of television. Really bad. And I can't imagine I'll continue to watch something so shitty get only shittier with Felicity's "paralysis", an Olicity break up, and death of someone else. Meh.

[Scribbles]

I have to think that while Felicity's life was hanging in the balance that Oliver did stay at Felicity's side and that is was only after death wasn't hanging at her door that he took off. 

 

Ditto sorta.  When they showed the very quick bit of him going into the ER with her at the beginning then jumped to what seemed to be some vague later, I took it as he stayed as close as possible till it was clear she would live then went to work. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Scribbles

[AyChihuahua]

Wow...this show is kinda terrible. Oliver really, really should not be a husband. The show has proven she can't trust him to be honest with her and now she can't even count on him to be there when the worst happens. Then she just completely forgives him for it like a Stepford wife. And how they managed to drain every ounce of emotion out of what should have been slam dunk character angst is almost skillful.

No, see, it's just the manpain and angst. See, he loves her so much that he can't stand to look at her face when she's maybe dying. Because that would hurt him, ya know. It's better for her to be maybe dying and definitely paralyzed without her future husband even in the building, because it hurts him so much to see her like that, that it's better for her to think he's dumping her because he can't stand to look at her now imperfect/paralyzed body. But hearteyes and Stephen Amell is hot and big dumb pine tree...

 

Wait, where was I going with this?

[wonderwall]

I'm not going to complain about the show not giving Felicity's PoV just yet because next week seems like a very Felicity centric episode where we'll see what's going on with her and how she's dealing with her paralysis what with quitting the team, possibly hallucinating goth!Felicity and having her kick her ass into gear, and getting her codename. I think episode 11 will be very good for her character so I can't really bring myself to complain just yet. 

 

I could definitely be wrong... But there was so much going on in this episode that I'm okay with them dealing with Felicity's emotions in a lighter plot episode.

[Lady Calypso]

Wow...this show is kinda terrible. Oliver really, really should not be a husband. The show has proven she can't trust him to be honest with her and now she can't even count on him to be there when the worst happens. Then she just completely forgives him for it like a Stepford wife. And how they managed to drain every ounce of emotion out of what should have been slam dunk character angst is almost skillful.

 

Yeah.....you know, even though I'm an Oliver fan (I know, shocking!), I was thrilled to see the lack of a ring on Felicity's finger in the FF. Not because I don't want them to get married eventually, but because Oliver has a lot of shit to get over before he'll be even close to become a husband. I am so pro 'Get Oliver Into Therapy', it's not even funny. And yeah, I'm not thrilled that they had Felicity be so understanding of Oliver, but I figure she's not only drugged up, but she's in somewhat of a denial phase of her recovery. Plus, those scenes? Really, really good. And again, Oliver avoiding the hospital makes sense. He was obviously there for the first day, seeing as he was right there as she was wheeled into her first surgery. He probably took off shortly after that to track down Darhk to avoid feeling, which is what he does best. Hell, Digg even had to remind him of all the progress he's made in order to make sure he didn't regress. 

 

Overall, the episode could have been better. Honestly, I wanted there to be less Anarky, more balance between Felicity's recovery/hunting for Darhk. I think we could have said Anarky for another episode. 

 

Every time they mention Darhk finding out about Quentin, it makes me a little more worried. Like, are they going to have Darhk figure it out, or not? 

 

I fast-forwarded through the flashbacks. Yep, after watching Oliver get whipped, I was done. 

 

As for the person in the grave, I do think after everything Felicity has gone through, and with everything she'll be going through, her anger at whoever the 'he' is (Darhk, Malcolm, now Anarky are all in the running) will make perfect sense. I don't think it's Donna, even if I know she'd be a candidate with or without flowers at the grave. Barry was there for Oliver, so that means it can't be Donna. He would 100% be there for Felicity, unless Barry already saw Felicity before the first flash-forward. It could be Quentin, or it could be Laurel. I'm still stuck with it being those two. But I STILL think it's Quentin, because it's the easiest choice. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

No, see, it's just the manpain and angst. See, he loves her so much that he can't stand to look at her face when she's maybe dying. Because that would hurt him, ya know. It's better for her to be maybe dying and definitely paralyzed without her future husband even in the building, because it hurts him so much to see her like that, that it's better for her to think he's dumping her because he can't stand to look at her now imperfect/paralyzed body. But hearteyes and Stephen Amell is hot and big dumb pine tree...

 

Wait, where was I going with this?

But see that's why they are soulmates. They both understand her pain is secondary. And that even while laid up bullet ridden and paralyzed, its her job to give him pep talks.

[AyChihuahua]

But see that's why they are soulmates. They both understand her pain is secondary. And that even while laid up bullet ridden and paralyzed, its her job to give him pep talks.

At this point he'd better be PHENOMENAL in bed, bc he doesn't have anything else going for him.

[Scribbles]

 

Every time they mention Darhk finding out about Quentin, it makes me a little more worried. Like, are they going to have Darhk figure it out, or not? 

 

When I hear it I think, Laurel will die.  Darhk would much rather live up to his word and kill Laurel making Quentin live with the pain of his choice to betray than upright kill Quentin.  Darhk kills those who fail to live up to expectations or do job as should, those who really betray him get the "live with the pain your choices have brought" treatment.

[benteen]

Forgot to add, these flashbacks continue to be boring and useless as hell.  It annoys me to no end that the showrunners have insisted on clinging to this story structure even though it’s been too years since they have actually been interesting.  I’m not saying get rid of the flashbacks.  I think they can still have their place if used sparingly.  But they add nothing at this point and take time away from the storyline that’s happening now.

Edited January 21, 2016 by benteen

[Guest]

I'm kinda glad we know O/F break-up because now maybe, hopefully, we can stop talking about the possibility because I'm about as over that as I was all the talk about Felicity being dead. It happens. It's done. 

 

Also, now that I've thought about it some more, I do understand why Oliver wasn't at the hospital. As much as I wanted him to be there and think he should have been there, it's in character for him to be in denial. He was in shock. He wanted to make sure DD was dead before he saw her. He wanted to give her some good news and not disappoint her. The crux is, of course, that not being there might have disappointed her anyway. He's such a dummy.

 

The fact is, in an ideal world Oliver should have never left Felicity's bedside. But this is Arrow and he's the Green Arrow and he was always going to be out there fighting the fight. 

[apinknightmare]

I have to add that I'm really disappointed that Darhk isn't living in a house on the outskirts of the Field of Dreams in the underground Corn Palace. 

[BkWurm1]

I know I'm just echoing what many have already said, but this glimpse of what the show would be like without Felicity was terrifying. Everything felt stilted and off and detached out in the field and in the bunker (which by the way has living quarters available - nice to know). 

 

Even the moments between the team members felt not there.  Part of it I'm sure was me not able to engage with the boring crap that was going on when the only thing I wanted to know was what was going on with Felicity and seriously show, what the hell?  How could they promote the hell out of her being shot and maybe dead and then spend no more than thirty seconds on her going to hospital before cutting away and then just skipping right to she's alive and let's see if Oliver has found Darhk yet.  If maybe they'd spent some time on how awful everyone felt over Felicity being shot up, I would want to see him go balls to the wall trying to get to DD, but instead they missed out on all the emotional beats needed to fuel that part of the story. 

[Scribbles]

I have tried to find this WM article confirming the break up and don't see it spelled out, but I stink at such searches.

[Chaser]

I would be much more forgiving about Oliver being absent (which I do understand), if their conversation involved more of Felicity's POV. 

 

I wanted to see her breakdown. I wanted to see Oliver climb into bed with her and comfort her. I wanted a little less Oliver therapy session. 

 

I will say tho that at first I was really pissed that she seemed so concerned about Oliver not wanting to marry her (more important things at the moment girly), but then I realized its probably tied into her abandonment issues. Wish that was explored. 

[apinknightmare]

If maybe they'd spent some time on how awful everyone felt over Felicity being shot up, I would want to see him go balls to the wall trying to get to DD, but instead they missed out on all the emotional beats needed to fuel that part of the story. 

 

Yeah. Felicity getting shot was a means to an end for a mid-season cliffie, but they didn't want to put any time or effort into extending the life or death drama once the tease was over. Even the people who actually showed up to the hospital didn't seem to care all that much about what happened to Felicity either way. 

I have tried to find this WM article confirming the break up and don't see it spelled out, but I stink at such searches.

 

She doesn't outright say they've broken up, just that they wanted to use the FF to also show the state of O&F's relationship at the time - cold and distant, and Felicity doesn't have a ring on her finger. 

[TVHappy9463]

How do we know the "him" Oliver and Felicity are referring to is Dahrk? Maybe it's someone we would never expect, like Diggle?  Now that would be interesting. I bet it's Malcolm, that would fit with all the returns in the promo. I'm over who is in the grave, I have run all the options and made peace with saying good-bye to any of them. 

The rest of the episode was ok, it had moments.

I agree with the poster who said the flashbacks need to be in the grave. 

[wonderwall]

I would be much more forgiving about Oliver being absent (which I do understand), if their conversation involved more of Felicity's POV. 

 

I wanted to see her breakdown. I wanted to see Oliver climb into bed with her and comfort her. I wanted a little less Oliver therapy session. 

 

I will say tho that at first I was really pissed that she seemed so concerned about Oliver not wanting to marry her (more important things at the moment girly), but then I realized its probably tied into her abandonment issues. Wish that was explored. 

 

*whispers* I think next episode will be great for all of us who want more of felicity's PoV! :) 

 

I also think that this episode jammed a whole lot of useless stuff into it for no reason which left little room for what we really wanted. I hope that 411 makes up for what we missed in 410.

 

If by 411/412 we don't get Felicity's PoV I'll definitely join in complaining about how the show is dealing w/ paralysis. 

[JenMD]

Have we seen Darhk's house in a previous ep as someone else's house?  It looked so familiar (and was really nice).

[statsgirl]

The TVline interview with WM is here

 

I wonder if SA and EBR know yet who the person in the grave is. even now  I know we're supposed to think that it's Donna but Felicity's tearful reaction could also be for Diggle, Thea, Roy or Laurel.  Would she be crying over Quentin?

 

And now we know why Oliver was alone with Barry at the graveside -- Felicity can't walk. Or at least we're supposed to assume her paralysis was the reason.

 

I thought there was supposed to be a time jump during the episode since it starts with Felicity coming in to the ER and later we hear that she's having another surgery which suggests she had a few in between there.

 

Good for EBR being willing to go without makeup (except for pale purple lipstick.  It helps to be that young though.

 

It looks like they are giving Felicity the Batgirl/Oracle storyline just without the name.  She starts out optimistic and supporting Oliver, then gets discouraged and thinks she's worthless to the team (from the promo), and eventually learns they needs her. 

 

I just hope that now that Felicity has supported Oliver, he turns around and supports her when she needs it.

 

Thank you, MG and WM, for having Diggle so caring of Felicity. Now if you can just give them some scenes together instead of Diggle telling everyone else, I'd appreciate it.

 

Another thing I didn't like was the opening of the episode. It was so anticlimactic. We never got to see any of their reactions to the news Felicity was hurt. We just jumped straight into the hunting down of DD. I kind of wanted to see everyone rush to see what had happened. 

Because they intercut the ER scenes and Oliver beating up Ghosts, I couldn't figure out what was going on.

 

Showing everyone reacting to hearing about Felicity would have been nice.  I guess I'll have to make due with fanfic.

 

On the other hand, I did appreciate all the nice things they said about Felicity and how strong she is.

[jay741982]

I didn't see Felicity crying in that end scene and Unfortunately it looks like she still might be paralyzed. I really really really really don't want the paralysis to be forever. I'm pissed off enough that the non masks are the ones who are dead or gets serious life changing injuries

Edited January 21, 2016 by jay741982

[quarks]

Hi, Arrow! Mostly glad to have you back, and by mostly, I mean not entirely because holy hell are we about to have a conversation about these damn flashbacks and continuity.

 

Oh, and about Felicity I guess.

 

Good things:

 

1. Thank you, Arrow, for ending that "Felicity is in the grave" speculation. Now we can just speculate about all of the other characters, yay!

 

2. More villains should hide machine guns right over their television sets. It's just good decorating.

 

3. Good to see Lyla again, though I hope that her role on this show hasn't been reduced to family counselor.

 

4. Liked the bit where Oliver pulled the ring out of his pocket and slid it on Felicity's finger for better and for worse. Awwwww.

 

5. I also liked Felicity's worry that Oliver might want to get out of the marriage. Well acted scene by EBR.

 

6. It's good to know that Oliver is able to bring up Bali to Felicity again.

 

7. I read Felicity's reaction a bit differently than some of you did: I think she was urging Oliver to continue to chase Damien not just to support Oliver, but as part of her own revenge.  And I gotta say, I loved that, despite having the sort of injury that would absolutely justify a nice stay in Bali to work things out, she was all, nope, go after bad guys.

 

8. And I found Oliver's response - what, me stay in a hospital? No! I have to go out and hit things! - perfectly in character, though I was glad that Donna, Diggle, and Thea all called him on it.

 

9. Also really liked the way they had Oliver less functional without Felicity in the Arrow Cave - not just in his inability to plan beyond "put a tracker on guy that's smart enough to figure out that the Green Arrow will put a tracker on me," but also in so easily losing the physical fight with Anarky at Damien's house.

 

10. I like Damien's pragmatic responses to attacks on his family: just buy out an entire hotel.

 

11. And yay, Damien's wife is even more evil than Damien is! This is going to go well. That poor kid, though. Cling to that one happy Christmas tree decorating moment, kid. You're going to need it.

 

12. We got shirtless Oliver back! In the most pointless part of the episode, granted, but we got shirtless Oliver back! And whips were involved! Fanfic writers, it's now up to you.

 

13. And Thea's dress? On point.

 

14. And once again, David Ramsey rocked every scene he was in with Oliver, proving the one eternal truth of Arrow: This show needs more Diggle.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. Was the Central City doctor briefly mentioned in the episode Caitlin, and if so, a) why didn't we see her, and b) since when did Caitlin become an expert in spinal injuries? And if not, then what is so special about this particular Central City doctor? Especially given that within the past year, Donna Smoak saw Ray defy medical expectations with those little nano things? Why is she so certain about this diagnosis?

 

2. Donna, I know you've always wanted hospital sex, but maybe hospital sex during your daughter's surgery isn't the very best timing.

 

3. We are ten episodes in and I'm still not sure of Poppy's actual name. I'd blame you guys for coming up with the Poppy thing, but really, it's that the Poppy nickname is the most memorable part of this character so far.

 

4. I've really liked Thea and her fight the bloodlust plot this year, but the whole worrying about should I or should I not date Alex, while a) her friend and future sister in law is in surgery, b) a psychopath that she burned up has just more or less admitted to having a huge crush on her, c) Damien Darhk is still around killing people, d) her brother thinks that psychopaths will keep their trackers on, and e) she's even forgetting to change out of that rockin jacket, just felt out of place.

 

5. I liked Diggle trying to be more of a brother to Andy except for the small fact that a) he sorta did this in earlier episodes with pictures of Andy's wife and kid, and b) Andy's acceptance of this seems suspiciously...fast, even for Arrow.

 

6. Really, Team Arrow? You find a woman and a kid tied up in a house owned by a shell company and you don't find them at all suspicious? Wow, do you need Felicity back.

 

7. And speaking of questionable Team Arrow decisions, Oliver, I know you weren't at your best this episode, and that you really wanted to hit more people, but releasing a crazed psychopath to go and catch a functional psychopath and assuming that psychopath one would keep his tracker on was really not one of your better moments. Stop trusting your trackers, Oliver!

[wonderwall]

OH BOY HERE COMES THE AND NOW LAUREL BIT 

 

I need to pop some popcorn :')

[Scribbles]

I am convinced the #1 reason flashbacks are there this year is the whole "magic" thing being brought into the show. 

[calliope1975]

Would she be crying over Quentin?

 

I guess I'll have to make due with fanfic.

 

Felicity cried over Moira so I think she'd shed a few tears over whichever character is in the grave. Maybe Star(ling) City's Window and Door guy gets killed. Tragic. 

 

Sometimes it feels like TIIC know fanfic writers are way better at writing character beats so they ignore it. I know that's not true, but when I have to anticipate I'll get plot holes and character POV's from fanfic because I know the show won't address them, it's a problem.

[quarks]

Bad things:

 

1. Amazing coincidence, isn't it, that Anarky just happened to end up in the same house where everyone was hiding out in episode 408, right? Almost as amazing as tying Anarky up in the same place where everyone was fighting Vandal Savage in that same episode!

 

Look, Arrow, Flash, we all know you're on a budget, and I realize that portions of 410 were filmed while doing 408 (and now we know why!) but this is distracting. If you don't have the budget to redress your sets properly, then follow the lead of The 100 and find a reason to more or less make this a bottle show where everyone hangs out in the same four locations.

 

2. Flashbacks. Oh, ye television gods, the flashbacks.

 

This time, it's not because they distracted from the rest of the episode (although they distracted from the rest of the episode) but because they contained what looked like at least two retcons, and that was just in the stuff that I was paying attention to. First, seriously, Arrow, are we expected to believe that in three and a half seasons that tattoo never once glowed again? You've been directly showing it to us in multiple episodes, even!  And while I appreciate that you had no plans to explain anything until you reached that point in the flashbacks, and that Oliver has never exactly talked about his past before, a "Hey, my tattoo didn't happen to glow at any point while I was unconscious, did it?" is, I feel, something that might have come up. Even if, as I suspect, the magic gets drained from it later, I'd still think that Oliver would have hesitated to jump into bed with Helena, McKenna and Isabel given that he has a tattoo that previously glowed in the dark. Geesh.  Second, Arrow, uh, make up your mind about this damn prison! Who built it? ARGUS? The Chinese?

 

3. I'm with everyone else that the pacing of this episode seemed somehow off. It's possible that I've just been trained by television to expect more hospital scenes, and I figured that with the return of the news reporters to the field, so to speak, in episode 409, we'd have the standard scenes of the press wanting to know how Ms. Smoak was doing, especially since last I checked, she does in theory run a major company and was attacked by lots of guns - the sort of thing that tends to draw press attention. And yet we didn't get any of this.  What we did get were Laurel's Getting Judgmental, Thea's Dating Crisis, and flashback scenes that not only seemed to have nothing to do with the rest of the show, not even mirroring the current timeline, as they generally do, but seemed to flat out contradict previous scenes on Arrow.

 

Some of the individual scenes - pretty much everything with Oliver and Felicity, the Oliver/Diggle scenes, the Oliver/Damien scene, and the Thea/Anarky scenes, were all fine to great, but other scenes seemed to lack energy. I think, in this case, it had to do with the production schedule; we were chatting about the screwy production schedule of trying to film scenes from this episode more or less next to scenes from 408, and if we can learn anything from either episode, it's that really, Arrow shouldn't do this, even it does save money on sets (see above.)

 

4. Not really happy that Anarky managed to take down both Thea and Oliver at once. I know both of them were distracted, and Arrow wants us to think that Anarky is a major, dangerous villain, but I kinda miss competent Oliver.

 

And now, Laurel:

 

Laurel had one good moment this episode - when she discovered that Quentin and Donna were dating. She was nice, supportive, mature - and the entire scene mostly served as a) a reminder that Laurel is not frequently like that, and b) an almost cruel contrast between Katie Cassidy and EBR, who turned the same type of scene into high comedy.  And yes, Laurel caught them in a hospital room and Felicity caught them at a Christmas party - but Felicity caught them while she was in the midst of her own emotional crisis, and still managed high comedy.

 

The rest of Laurel's appearances this episode just proved that using Laurel as a voice of reason, leadership, moral guidance or strategy just does not work, on so many levels.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney: Just a few, but as always with Laurel, all so huge they overshadowed everything else: 1) After spending the first half of the episode earnestly telling everyone who isn't listening that really Anarky belongs in jail, failing to provide sufficient security to stop him from breaking out or to stop the Green Arrow from breaking him out, even though she knows full well that Oliver plans to continue interrogating Anarky/using Anarky to find Darhk. 2) failing to use the excuse of "hey, your home was just invaded" to ask Damien's wife some questions in her legal capacity, 3) not finding the shell company at all suspicious like Laurel, you work as a prosecutor. You know this is how bad guys hide their money on television!  (Adding the "on television" out of respect to any posters that might be hiding their assets in shell companies for perfectly legitimate not at all evil reasons.)

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante: I probably missed a few, but 1) bringing up Anarky while walking through a hospital corridor with Thea, like, Laurel, I get that you have limited sets, I really do, but maybe, just maybe, the Starling City hospital isn't the best place for this conversation? 2) Using her Canary Cry while Thea is standing right in front of her, in range of the thing, like, it's a miracle Thea didn't fall over or go deaf, 3) letting Mrs. Evil Damien go and yet 4) despite clearly not keeping an eye on Mrs. Evil or getting answers out of her, not returning to help Oliver or Thea, thus allowing Anarky to get away like THANKS LAUREL 5) even though Thea had just told her, in this episode, that she was still fighting the blood lust like thanks, Laurel, 6) criticizing Oliver for failing to come up with a plan, and then failing to come up with a single coherent plan to find Darhk.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being: Oh, the hypocrisy. 1) jumping down Oliver's throat for keeping Anarky a prisoner, after having no problems with keeping Nyssa in a cage last season, keeping Andy in a cage (a cage without toilet facilities, no less) in this season, and chaining her own sister up in a basement this season like are you kidding me, Laurel? The only people with less moral authority to do this are all over on Flash. Bonus negative points, Laurel, for forgetting that you were the one who decided to bring Oliver back to Star City in the first place because you were unable to handle Darhk.  2) jumping down Oliver's throat for failing to show up at the hospital, and then wandering into the hospital well after other characters did, like, I realize you aren't engaged to marry Felicity but could we perhaps tone down the hypocrisy a bit, 3) telling Thea "No, you can't think that way," when um, Laurel, first of all, Thea did, indeed, set Anarky on fire, and second of all, Thea is already thinking that way, 4) failing to give Thea much comfort during that entire scene, forcing minor character Alex to step forward and give Thea the necessary moral support.  I like the idea of Laurel acting in an older sister, protective, mentor role towards Thea, but as with so many other things with Laurel, it just doesn't seem to be working out in practice.

 

But what I found most interesting about Laurel in this episode was what didn't happen, which is to say, she didn't once succeed in getting through to Oliver.  Quentin did. Thea did. Donna did. Felicity did. Even Anarky and Damien did. (And the flashback characters probably did too but I was so distracted by the whip, the shirtlessness, the glowing tattoo and general I have absolutely no idea what's going on here any more that I didn't notice.)

 

Laurel didn't. The pattern continued throughout the episode: Laurel would say something, Oliver would either ignore it or argue against it, and nothing would happen until Diggle or Thea or Donna said something. During the fight scenes, she and Oliver were separated: Oliver was consistently placed with either Diggle or Thea. Oliver dismissed her. It's not just a huge contrast with the way Oliver argues with Felicity and Thea, but it's also a huge contrast with the way Oliver fought with Sara - he disagreed with her, and disagreed with her pragmatic, let's kill people approach, but he didn't dismiss Sara. There's a difference.  It didn't help that Thea and Diggle were also dismissive in more minor ways.  All of these characters were less dismissive of Roy. It's in major contrast to, say, Agent Carter's first season, where Peggy was dismissed by her team, but where the audience saw Peggy do stuff, because we aren't seeing Laurel do individual stuff.  It's especially bad since this is supposedly the season where Oliver isn't really in charge.

 

This isn't sustainable, and not just because these attitudes help drive audience reactions to a character: we think that Laurel's opinions on a subject are less important, because that's how other characters are treating those opinions - even when Laurel is right to note that unleashing a psychopath on Star City is maybe not the best move. But Oliver, and Arrow, weren't allowed to realize this until Thea and Diggle said something and Anarky pulled off the tracker.

 

Arrow, if you aren't going to kill her off, do something with her.

[looptab]

the bunker has living quarters available - nice to know). 

 

 

That solves the problem of where is Oliver going to live once Felicity kicks him to the curb.

 

The only thing I got out of this episode is that I ship Thea and Anarky, God help me.

 

The FF scene was good. Like, it was so weird seeing them that way, almost like they can barely tolerate each other's presence. And they sold it. It was a nice parallel to Darhk and his wife's scene. 

 

But now I need the reasonable and eloquent folks of this board to tell me that all the Laurel in this episode, and all the Oliver/Laurel in it meant nothing more than it was. Please and thank you.

[GirlvsTV]

Also, now that I've thought about it some more, I do understand why Oliver wasn't at the hospital. As much as I wanted him to be there and think he should have been there, it's in character for him to be in denial. He was in shock. He wanted to make sure DD was dead before he saw her. He wanted to give her some good news and not disappoint her. The crux is, of course, that not being there might have disappointed her anyway. He's such a dummy.

 

The fact is, in an ideal world Oliver should have never left Felicity's bedside. But this is Arrow and he's the Green Arrow and he was always going to be out there fighting the fight.

But to have not even spoken to her in all the time she was going through all these surgeries? To not have checked-in or even attempted to stay updated on her condition? I'd understand if he'd done all those things and Felicity had indicated she was cool with him going after DD, but that isn't what happened. I mean, he didn't even speak to her. That's just so awful. He left her laying in a hospital, where she had to go through several surgeries and then deal with learning she'd never walk again all while being afraid Oliver wouldn't want to be with her anymore. He left her when she really needed him the most and that is the whole crux of the matter. HIS feelings and insecurities should not have been the priority for him, Felicity's should have been.

[Password]

More Felicity needed. Otherwise pointless episode.

I'm really excited to see what happens with Felicity. I want to wrap her in an impenetrable bubble and keep her safe but there's potential for fantastic acting/a great storyline.

And finally YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS that ring is gone, Felicity RAIL OLIVER!! I'm so excited to see him crumble because of his own stupidity!!!! Make him pay Felicity, please!

[wonderwall]

I love you @quarks

[Chasity]

2. Donna, I know you've always wanted hospital sex, but maybe hospital sex during your daughter's surgery isn't the very best timing.

 

Donna and Quentin weren't having hospital sex. He was rubbing her back while she cried about Felicity. 

[wonderwall]

But now I need the reasonable and eloquent folks of this board to tell me that all the Laurel in this episode, and all the Oliver/Laurel in it meant nothing more than it was. Please and thank you.

 

Read Quark's post right above yours

[Guest]

But to have not even spoken to her in all the time she was going through all these surgeries? To not have checked-in or even attempted to stay updated on her condition? I'd understand if he'd done all those things and Felicity had indicated she was cool with him going after DD, but that isn't what happened. I mean, he didn't even speak to her. That's just so awful. He left her laying in a hospital, where she had to go through several surgeries and then deal with learning she'd never walk again all while being afraid Oliver wouldn't want to be with her anymore. He left her when she really needed him the most and that is the whole crux of the matter. HIS feelings and insecurities should not have been the priority for him, Felicity's should have been.

 

Hey, I'm not saying he wasn't in the wrong. I'm just saying I understand why he behaved the way he did. Not that I agree with it. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Guest

[Lady Calypso]

How do we know the "him" Oliver and Felicity are referring to is Dahrk? Maybe it's someone we would never expect, like Diggle?  Now that would be interesting. I bet it's Malcolm, that would fit with all the returns in the promo. I'm over who is in the grave, I have run all the options and made peace with saying good-bye to any of them. 

The rest of the episode was ok, it had moments.

I agree with the poster who said the flashbacks need to be in the grave. 

 

That's exactly why I assumed right from the premiere that there's a huge chance it's not Darhk. It's the fact that they used 'him' and intentionally kept it ambigous. It could be anyone from Malcolm to Anarky to Alex (because why not?).

 

Also, yeah, them reusing sets is way more noticeable this season. I must add that they JUST reused Diggle's home set for The Flash last night, with it being Patty's place. Just saying, they didn't bother to alter anything in that episode. 

[Password]

I think I'm even more annoyed he didn't stick around because he did with Thea. Agh shame me for saying something good happened in season 3, but it was handled a lot better.

[jay741982]

I do have to say they seemed REALLY COLD to each other in the FF. Which makes me hate the writers for the unneeded drama bullshit and for what looks like more season 3 like bullcrap. Seriously I don't get the need to be depressing and to make Oliver be a dumbass. Oliver is supposed to Evolve and be a better person but Asshole Guggie gets a boner making Oliver be a dumbass. Oliver and Felicity looked like they HATED each other almost and it depressed me