S04.E10: Blood Debts

[Soulfire]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a somewhat overall boring episode (save for the last two minutes) these two were lovely.

[dtissagirl]

Serious question, what is the point of Alex.

[nksarmi]

Oh. The "four months from now" in the new flash-forward puts the death at the really real end of the season now. We were speculating as early as 418, now it might be later.

 

Well but if the show is paying any attention to their timeline - this episode picked up immediately after the one in December around Christmas - so four months from now really should mean April which would give them several episodes to deal with whatever this death is.

 

I did not notice her lack of ring, but I did notice that a) this was a refilm of the first flash forward and b) this time Oliver was acting a lot different so I think they have decided who is in the grave.  Given Felicity's reaction - which is definitely more severe than Oliver's - I thought Momma Smoak.  My fiancé thought Diggle.  I no longer think it's a Lance.  Go figure.

[Scribbles]

I see it all so differently than many of these comments.  Oliver's behavior to me is what I would expect.  His way of mourning or dealing with pain/fear is to go out and find the bad guy/take action.  I didn't imagine him sitting by her bed in the hospital and they seemed to make it clear Felicity would not have either.

[johntfs]

My recording device screwed up but I did watch the opening.  For the record this

 

 

is how you open an episode about seeking revenge.  Some spoilers for Person of Interest.

[calliope1975]

I'm guessing Olicity will get an end of season, look at all we've lost, I don't waste more time apart, blah blah blah fishcakes. As long as there is a lot of miserable Oliver groveling and, crazy talk I know, he finally fucking learns something, I'm good with that. 

[apinknightmare]

I see it all so differently than many of these comments.  Oliver's behavior to me is what I would expect.  His way of mourning or dealing with pain/fear is to go out and find the bad guy/take action.  I didn't imagine him sitting by her bed in the hospital and they seemed to make it clear Felicity would not have either.

 

I expected it for sure, but I didn't expect him to actually show up at the hospital and ask to see her, then leave to go get Machin, haha. 

[nksarmi]

I have a feeling they paralyzed FS to make OQ's withholding seem less horrible. Because if they can overcome paralysis, then they can overcome a little keeping secrets with silly ultimatums by Bitchy ex-lovers.

 

I hate that they are doing this paralysis story and I hate that in the end I know it will not be about FS at all. It will be about OQ. It will be about Curtis. And it will be about saving a company that really serves no purpose on the show.

 

I just hate it... because you just can't fix paralysis and yet this show will do it with a snap of their fingers. It's just sickening that this is the best these writers can give us.

 

Well it's either Curtis or Ray's nanobites make a reappearance.  But how did Batgirl regain use of her legs when she was Oracle?  This show has to borrowing from that Batman story right?

 

Oh so my attention might have waned at some point - did Anarchy get recaptured at the end?  Because at one point I wondered if it was Anarchy - and not Darhk - who killed whomever was in the grave and that's why Oliver felt responsible (because he let him go).

[Primal Slayer]

I thought the episode was so boring. Seriously. 

 

Laurel and her self-righteousness can just go away. Thank god they had Oliver bring up what she did to Sara. In her words "It's the hypocrisy I can't stand."

Even though she didn't take the best precautions, she had her sister locked up and didn't willingly let her go. Oliver willingly let a him get away. Anarky didn't break out and Oliver took it upon himself to look for him solo.

[apinknightmare]

Oh so my attention might have waned at some point - did Anarchy get recaptured at the end?  Because at one point I wondered if it was Anarchy - and not Darhk - who killed whomever was in the grave and that's why Oliver felt responsible (because he let him go).

 

No, Thea let him get away.

Even though she didn't take the best precautions, she had her sister locked up and didn't willingly let her go. Oliver willingly let a him get away. Anarky didn't break out and Oliver took it upon himself to look for him solo.

 

But Laurel knew she was missing and didn't tell anyone, so...

[calliope1975]

Serious question, what is the point of Alex.

 

As pointless as Alex is, he's still more memorable than Poppy.

 

I'm waiting for an end of season "these were all our plans for Alex but..." statement from the EPs.

[Guest]

It's a shame we didn't get to see a reaction from Felicity about her paralysis. Like the only one was when she was giving Oliver a way out of the engagement which broke my heart. She must have been just lying there thinking about it. But I would have liked to see something more. Hopefully we'll get that next week. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Guest

[foreverevolving]

Just realized it can't be Donna in the grave cause she's jewish and there are flowers. So i'm back to thinking it could be Roy but hoping it's Buckles.

 

speaking of FF I noticed in the car scene that while Felicity was physically distance Oliver was actually reaching out to her- subconsciously or consciously. after he entered the car his hand did this tiny move that he wanted to just grab her hand but than instead it's like he remembered they were not together so he placed it on the car seat instead but still you could see his hand moving, being restless, a bit. 

[Guest]

Even though she didn't take the best precautions, she had her sister locked up and didn't willingly let her go. Oliver willingly let a him get away. Anarky didn't break out and Oliver took it upon himself to look for him solo.

 

Huh? She knew her sister had escaped and didn't tell anyone for a week because she didn't want to be judged. Meanwhile, Sara's out hurting and killing people. 

 

She's still a hypocrite. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

 

But Laurel knew she was missing and didn't tell anyone, so...

 

And she was trying to track her down. Someone escaping vs. someone being willingly let go are different.

[nksarmi]

No, Thea let him get away.

 

But Laurel knew she was missing and didn't tell anyone, so...

 

Ok so if Anarky does kill whoever is in the grave - that could tie into Felicity's reaction as well.

[nksarmi]

No, Thea let him get away.

 

But Laurel knew she was missing and didn't tell anyone, so...

 

Ok so if Anarky does kill whoever is in the grave - that could tie into Felicity's reaction as well.

[apinknightmare]

And she was trying to track her down. Someone escaping vs. someone being willingly let go are different.

 

She didn't tell anyone because she didn't want to be judged (rightfully, because she did something stupid). She willingly put people's lives in danger because of her pride. That's better how?

[JenMD]

Thank God Felicity's no longer swimming in the death pool.  Small favors.

 

Have to agree that this ep was just so underwhelming.  Right off the bat they skip from the trauma team working on Felicity to her alert and assuring everyone she'll be fine as she goes in for "another" surgery.  Way to skip all those emotional beats, Show, of her friends and teammates finding out what happened and reacting to one of their own near death.  All too often I feel like I'm watching a Cliff Notes version of this show. 

 

Oliver staying away from the hospital was downplayed way too much. It took too long for anyone to really get on him about it.  I get what they were going for, but I didn't like how it was written.  The pacing in general just wasn't working for me; not enough panic or urgency or something.

 

Don't care about Alex, don't care about Anarky.  I'm now just fastforwarding through the flashbacks, something I said I'd never do, but man, I just can't.  Someone send up a flare if we ever get to Russia, ok?

 

Oliver and Felicity's moments in the hospital were really lovely and so well done (although, in their first scene Felicity was looking like she was about to die of consumption, heh).  But I really missed having Felicity around.  Way to much stuff just didn't work for me.

 

Ring, no ring, I'll worry about that later.  I really am just glad her being in the grave is off the board.  Oh, and the paralysis?  Worst kept spoiler ever.  Also glad that cat's out of the bag.

[foreverevolving]

It's a shame we didn't get to see a reaction from Felicity about her paralysis. Like the only one was when she was giving Oliver a way out of the engagement which broke my heart. She must have been just lying there thinking about it. But I would have liked to see something more. Hopefully we'll get that next week. 

I think that's coming next week..

[Scribbles]

I am not sure that I jump to them being broken up because of the in limo at funeral scene either.  We don't know who else may be in the facing seats and/or what other things may be at play.

[kismet]

It's a shame we didn't get to see a reaction from Felicity about her paralysis. Like the only one was when she was giving Oliver a way out of the engagement which broke my heart. She must have been just lying there thinking about it. But I would have liked to see something more. Hopefully we'll get that next week. 

It was a pretty good scene.

 

I have actually witnessed a similar conversation between an engaged couple and it is heartbreaking. There also was a lot of guilt that it was the fiance's fault that caused the paralysis, but it was related to a car accident and not a shooting... but still it just is horrible when a happy couple has there future planned before them and then it is all lost in the blink of an eye. The financial, emotional and physical burdens are just so incredibly hard to process.... I'm glad the writers felt the need to introduce such an emotionally challenging journey for a few plot points and DRAMA!. Sorry, my bitter anger at this storyline is coming through.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm guessing Olicity will get an end of season, look at all we've lost, I don't waste more time apart, blah blah blah fishcakes. As long as there is a lot of miserable Oliver groveling and, crazy talk I know, he finally fucking learns something, I'm good with that. 

Agreed, but it has to STICK. Everyone, from the characters in the show to the audience, had every reason to think he'd learned not to lie already. Shit just does not stick to his tiny little pea brain.

 

Also, nice of his manpain to cause Felicity to think he was going to dump her while she was on her potential deathbed. If he weren't a tv character, but were like my friend's fiance, I would absolutely hate his guts.

[nksarmi]

Just realized it can't be Donna in the grave cause she's jewish and there are flowers. So i'm back to thinking it could be Roy but hoping it's Buckles.

 

speaking of FF I noticed in the car scene that while Felicity was physically distance Oliver was actually reaching out to her- subconsciously or consciously. after he entered the car his hand did this tiny move that he wanted to just grab her hand but than instead it's like he remembered they were not together so he placed it on the car seat instead but still you could see his hand moving, being restless, a bit. 

 

Actually if Felicity's reaction is a clue - I would say the potential list got a lot shorter....

 

- I don't see her reacting like that over Laurel

- I think she would comfort Oliver over Thea

- I think their reactions would be more even over Roy (plus why bring him back just to kill him?)

- I'm really not seeing this reaction over Det. Lance either

 

I honestly think it's Diggle or Donna at this point.

[apinknightmare]

I am not sure that I jump to them being broken up because of the in limo at funeral scene either.  We don't know who else may be in the facing seats and/or what other things may be at play.

 

There's a post-ep interview with

WM in TVLine - they're broken up. 

[lemotomato]

Even though she didn't take the best precautions, she had her sister locked up and didn't willingly let her go. Oliver willingly let a him get away. Anarky didn't break out and Oliver took it upon himself to look for him solo.

She resurrected Sara even though everyone told her she'd come back crazy. She saw Sara came out of the Pit violent, and brought her back to Star City anyway. She left Sara unsupervised in her basement. And then when she escaped, she didn't tell anyone or ask for help because she didn't want to be judged. Basically Laurel did everything to set up Sara to go on a rampage except give her the key to her chains, so she has no leg to stand on to criticize Oliver for what he did. 

[Guest]

I am not sure that I jump to them being broken up because of the in limo at funeral scene either.  We don't know who else may be in the facing seats and/or what other things may be at play.

 

I think we just assume that because she wasn't wearing her ring. When Felicity finds out about Oliver's son (which I'm pretty sure will be the reason for their break-up) I can't see her just breaking off their engagement only. 

[wonderwall]

Can I just say... I LOVED that even though Felicity had about 3-4 minutes of screentime, she's the only character who managed to trend in the US? lmao More power to Felicity ;)

[ottoDbusdriver]

Seriously, though, that was such an underwhelming hour of television. Loved Diggle, loved Olicity, loved Oliver pointing out that Felicity is a total badass. But other than that, I was supremely bored.

 

I was pretty bored for most of it as well -- and really had no recollection of Anarky at all.  Which episode was he even in ?  I don't even remember his face getting burnt.

 

Seriously, Anarky takes down Ollie and Speedy with what amounted to basically a giant pair of nunchuks and then scampers off ?

 

And flashbacks to Lian Yu were just awful.  That can't be said enough. Why do the producers insist on bringing back this awful filler ?

Edited January 23, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[AyChihuahua]

I am not sure that I jump to them being broken up because of the in limo at funeral scene either.  We don't know who else may be in the facing seats and/or what other things may be at play.

She's not wearing her engagement ring, the atmosphere is Plutonian, and they're sitting as far apart as possible. Occam's Razor strongly suggests they've split. Especially bc we are very well aware of one HUGE reason for them to split.

There's a post-ep interview with

WM in TVLine - they're broken up. 

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY.  (I'm fine with them eventually getting back together, once he learns not to be a lying douche to everyone he "loves.")

[wonderwall]

I think that's coming next week..

 

I really do think next week will be a good Felicity episode... I think we'll see:

 

1) Felicity quits TA and is trying to get a handle of her new normal and maybe feels sorry for herself

2) Felicity hallucinates Goth!Felicity

3) Goth!Felicity kicks Felicity's ass into gear and makes her stop feeling sorry for herself

4) Felicity goes back to the team at the most opportune time and saves them

5) Felicity gives herself her codename

Edited January 21, 2016 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

I'm guessing Olicity will get an end of season, look at all we've lost, I don't waste more time apart, blah blah blah fishcakes. As long as there is a lot of miserable Oliver groveling and, crazy talk I know, he finally fucking learns something, I'm good with that.

I think the Oliver/Felicity timeline of epicness is still intact:

. Breakup sometime in February Sweeps, whenever Felicity finds out about BM and demon spawn

. Reunion in the season finale

. Wedding in 508 because crossover + 100th episode

Eyes on the prize, CW.

[foreverevolving]

Actually if Felicity's reaction is a clue - I would say the potential list got a lot shorter....

 

- I don't see her reacting like that over Laurel

- I think she would comfort Oliver over Thea

- I think their reactions would be more even over Roy (plus why bring him back just to kill him?)

- I'm really not seeing this reaction over Det. Lance either

 

I honestly think it's Diggle or Donna at this point.

I actually don't think it's Diggle (they'll have to reset the timeline because people will riot!!) and it can't be Donna cause just like Felicity I believe she is jewish so she wouldn't have had flowers.. Also why would Barry come to Donna's funeral?

 

Roy and Buckles continue to be the logical choice so far, unless they are killing Curtis... Holy shit!! that's it isn't it? it's Curtis!! explains why Felicity is super upset, and why Barry may be there if there is a team up coming up. Or it could be Lyla.

Edited January 21, 2016 by foreverevolving

[calliope1975]

Yep, I agree. That wedding is coming in the 100th episode crossover. It'll be interrupted and hero/villain shenanigans will ensue, but it's happening.

[Chaser]

Felicity's reaction could be a combination of the death and the circumstances. I would be pissed if we were fighting this guy over and over again and last blow he dealt killed a member of the Team (who she would care about), I would be angry.

 

I'm convinced now its not Dig. I honestly feel Donna Smoak would be one of the worst choices. It's so lazy and I think it would annoy more than anything.

[Primal Slayer]

She didn't tell anyone because she didn't want to be judged (rightfully, because she did something stupid). She willingly put people's lives in danger because of her pride. That's better how?

It has nothing to do with telling anyone, Laurel still was trying to track down her sister and stop her. I never said what Laurel did was right, but willingly letting a killer go is different when it comes to intentions. It would be like TA capturing Sara while she is crazy and Laurel just letting her out of the cage. 

[GirlvsTV]

The timeline of this episode was really confusing. I can't figure out how much time is supposed to have passed. They seemed to indicate Felicity had several surgeries and that they'd had time to bring in another doctor, but Oliver didn't seem to know about any of it. So, he didn't even speak to her at all over that time?! Even for Oliver, that's pretty terrible. He stayed with Thea pretty much the whole time she was at death's door so the, "he has avoidance issues" doesn't wash.

And I get the whole, "he has to learn," thing but what's the point? He'll probably forget whatever he learned at some point next season when it's most convenient to the plot, at which time he will have to then learn it all over again.

Edited January 21, 2016 by GirlvsTV

[apinknightmare]

It has nothing to do with telling anyone, Laurel still was trying to track down her sister and stop her. I never said what Laurel did was right, but willingly letting a killer go is different when it comes to intentions. It would be like TA capturing Sara while she is crazy and Laurel just letting her out of the cage. 

 

It's not like Oliver just let Anarky go for the hell of it, LOL. He did it to catch a much bigger fish. So you're right, intentions do matter. 

[popgoesculture]

Deleted, accidental double posting.

Edited January 21, 2016 by popgoesculture

[Guest]

I think the Oliver/Felicity timeline of epicness is still intact:

. Breakup sometime in February Sweeps, whenever Felicity finds out about BM and demon spawn

. Reunion in the season finale

. Wedding in 508 because crossover + 100th episode

Eyes on the prize, CW.

 

 

I'm up for that. I do think we're still heading for a wedding. They've just gone too far with them to just have them break up and the end. I need me a happy ending this season to put up with all the sad.

[jay741982]

Could next week be a Diggle AND Felicity Ep? I hope so

[bmoore4026]

The one who's going to die isn't Felicity!  Yaaaaaaay!

 

And Damien Darhk's wife is evil, too!?  Oh, this is gooood!  She's The H.I.V.E. Queen, ain't she!?

 

I've never like the villain Anarky.  He's a pill in the comics, and we was a pill here.  Hopefully Damien kills him nice and slow.

[Orion]

I wanted to like this episode so much. I had such high hopes. I should know better.

 

Arrow once again shoving 3 hours of plot into a 45 minute show.

 

How do you paralyze one of the most popular characters on your show and have 2 emotional scenes with that person? How do you yet AGAIN not have a Diggle/Felicity scene? How do you write it where Oliver learns she is NEVER going to walk again and have him peace out to go free a bad guy. 

 

Scenes that I would have loved to have had rather than watch Laurel pissy face her self through half the episode.

 

Oliver calling for help, Oliver talking to Felicity at all before/during/after the ambulance, the ER, one of the surgeries, her diagnosis. Donna/Diggle hearing about the shooting. Donna/Diggle/Thea talking to Felicity.

 

Honest to god half the time I think Felicity is a figment of Oliver's imagination and that Slade actually killed her way back in Season 2.

 

But thank goodness we got to see Anarchy has a crush on Thea 10 or 12 times and Flashbacks of boredom..

 

The Oliver and Felicity scenes that they were allowed to have were fantastic and emotional and the scene where Felicity tells him he's not obligated to stick with the engagement was some of EBR's best work  and I'm so glad they had that dialogue in there because that was very real as something someone would say and offer.

 

But to just make this chopped up snooze of an episode when there was so much potential. Which should really be Arrow's tag line.

[KirkB]

I'm fairly convinced it's Donna. The focus on the lack of flowers assumes the show runners are aware of or are concerned about Jewish traditions. And Felicity is very important to Barry, why wouldn't he come to her mom's funeral? 

 

That said, it could also be Diggle. Or Lyla. Barry met and liked both of them.

 

I don't see any way it could be Laurel, the show is way too enamored of their One True Black Canary. The only way she is going anywhere is if KC decides she wants to leave. And I'm fairly sure that would have gotten out.

 

I HATE THE FLASHBACKS! Not a damn thing happened on that island I cared about. 

[Guest]

Another thing I didn't like was the opening of the episode. It was so anticlimactic. We never got to see any of their reactions to the news Felicity was hurt. We just jumped straight into the hunting down of DD. I kind of wanted to see everyone rush to see what had happened. 

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, not only did Felicity survive the cliffhanger, it is now confirmed that she isn't going to be the one in the grave.  She is paralyzed though, so that sucks, unless she has a miraculous recovery or the Flash gang whips up a new device for her at STAR labs.  I missed her not wearing the engagement ring, but she did seem frosty in the limo, so it does look like she and Oliver will break-up before then.  Not sure why, but I think it is safe to say that it will probably be Oliver's fault.  Still have no idea who is in the grave though.  I just hope it isn't Diggle, but I'm prepared for it.

 

Anarky is back and suddenly holding his own against Oliver and Thea at the same time, so either those two need more training, or Anarky has been hiding this the entire time.  Oliver's plan to just let him loose to hunt down Damien was hilarious, but classic Oliver. Loved Laurel pointing out how stupid it was.  Also loved Oliver reminding her that she let cray-cray Sara loose thanks to her stupidity.  Yeah, neither one of those two is the brains of this operation.

 

Diggle finally trying to reconnect with Andy as a brother, probably means something awful is going to happen between them.

 

I swear, these flashbacks are single-handily dropping the quality of the season by a letter grade.  So, so pointless.

 

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that despite my love for Neal McDonough, Damien is underwhelming me as a villain.  He's better then Ra's, but that's not going to cut it.  Too many good comic villains lately.  Compared to Kilgrave (Jessica Jones) and even Zoom, Damien just doesn't seem like that big of a threat.  But I guess this show really never had someone like that after Slade.

 

Boring return, overall.

[nksarmi]

I actually don't think it's Diggle (they'll have to reset the timeline because people will riot!!) and it can't be Donna cause just like Felicity I believe she is jewish so she wouldn't have had flowers.. Also why would Barry come to Donna's funeral?

 

Roy and Buckles continue to be the logical choice so far, unless they are killing Curtis... Holy shit!! that's it isn't it? it's Curtis!! explains why Felicity is super upset, and why Barry may be there if there is a team up coming up. Or it could be Lyla.

 

I'm not sure the show would pay attention to the flower detail.  Unlike the first FF, this time I got the feeling that Barry was only there for Oliver. There was no - I'm sorry I wasn't here or mention of Zoom this time.

 

Oh hell, we aren't going to get two deaths are we?  These are just continuity fails, right?

[benteen]

They've ripped off so much from Batman so let's turn Felicity into Oracle?

 

It's amazing that even after getting burned, Anarky still looks like a pretty boy.  I find it ridiculous that he can hold off both Oliver and Thea at the same time.

 

Really hope that's not Diggle in the grave but that looks likely given both Oliver and Felicity's reaction at the end.

Edited January 21, 2016 by benteen

[Delphi]

Serious question, what is the point of Alex.

The dude is ripped. The costumers just keep forgetting to make him shirtless. And he's humanizing Thea or something.

[jay741982]

I'm loving seeing a bunch of "Without Felicity this show is boring , sorry Dig and Thea!" On not just here