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Celebrating 1,000 NCIS-franchise episodes

S03.E07: Song Of Myself

Primetimer

By Primetimer
in Beverly Hills, 90210

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SoupThrower

SoupThrower

Is it me or did Brian's voice change from the last episode to this? It's like lower and huskier. Brenda taking Spanish? Oh boy what would her Spanish accent be like?

 

Also I never remembered Gil being this bad after realizing half the stuff he said. I just tuned him out from the get go. 

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SoupThrower

SoupThrower

(edited)

Dylan just leave Kelly alone or just break up with Brenda. Nikki is still awesome and lol at Donna being like "That's all we do" That's gonna be the reason why a) David goes into drugs (indirectly) and b) Ariel. When Tori said that line it sounded like it was David's decision not her's. 

 

Gil is a dick. No teacher would act like that in real life. Also I get what Brandon's trying to do since he did apparently a lot during his first two years and maybe back in Minny (I coasted my last year and beasted) but if he doesn't want to do it then why coerce him? 

 

Mainly on Andrea's side but man she is really protective of the Blaze like it's kind of scary. 

 

Wouldn't Sue remember Brenda? Or I guess she wasn't supposed to get off her sleep schedule and missed all the fun? 

Edited by SoupThrower
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Rebecca

Rebecca

Why wasn't Sue shown in any capacity at Dead Scott's birthday "party"? They obviously slapped this storyline together with no plans for it in advance before Scott was dead. It seems so weird for her to just show up suddenly when she had no mention prior.

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JennB

JennB

You can see a boom mike above Sue when she comes out of the stall.

Clearly the dress code at West Beverly is a lot more lax than it is at schools now. Exposed clavicles for everyone!

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dianajoy

dianajoy

It's funny you should bring up how old Luke Perry looks, because I just had a fifteen minute conversation with my mother this weekend where the gist was that she thought that Luke Perry was Cameron Mathison's father, and didn't believe me when I said they were only three years apart. (file this under "Topics That Come Up While Watching 'Murder, She Baked' on Hallmark Mysteries With Your 65 Year Old Mother")

On another subject, while Brandon is a particularly egregious choice, I don't know why someone would be asking any dude's opinion on whether or not something was sexist unless it was part of a seminar to teach men about sexism or something. Which pretty much underlines what a clueless schmuck Gil actually is. But yay to Andrea for putting it all out there.

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scrubs14

scrubs14

(edited)

Nikki Wit will always be the original Audrey from Vacation to me. The actress must have been quite old by the time she did this right?  But we are also into peak Brenda hair and I'm still jealous of it all these years later. 

Edited by scrubs14
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Hollysdower

Hollysdower

Those denim granny panties never were and will never be ok. How did no one stop that from happening?

 

I am just blown away by that outfit. Never would have been allowed in my high school. I know ripped denim was big in the '90s, and so was spandex...but I only saw stuff like that in music videos. I was already in college when this originally aired. I was in the midwest, we mostly wore pleated jeans and giant sweaters. Was all this denim & spandex & leather actually a thing in high schools on the coasts?

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MissEwa

MissEwa

I still love Nikki and she absolutely looks younger than most of the cast but when they put her in figure-hugging stuff she does not look fifteen. Which is not at all a criticism - she rocks the hell out of that black top with the high-waisted black and white skirt (which I would love more if it was a dress, but is still great). 

 

Sue's outfits on the other hand... yeesh. She does very much look like a teenager though. 

 

I reached adulthood just as so-low-rise-you-need-to-wax jeans hit their peak (or trough, as it were) so I always marvel at how high waistlines were at this point in time. It reminds me of the terrible 80's books I read sometimes when I want pure brain-candy and they describe someone's jeans as being 'cut so low you could see their belly button'.

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SoupThrower

SoupThrower

(edited)

Unfortunately, I know from experience that many men do act like that in real life in all walks of life.

 

Sadly it's true just like wouldn't think a teacher would act like that on this show but then again it is this show. 

 

I mean if he said that "Andrea, we appreciate all you have done but we want to give Brandon (don't know why) a go to see what he brings to the table" Instead of something like "Overarchiever" "Woman behind the Man" "Ego" or whatever, it would have been better.

 

To be fair I always tuned out Gil from the get go. Anyone with the name Gil is not good news like that frog in Muppet Takes Manhattan. 

Why wasn't Sue shown in any capacity at Dead Scott's birthday "party"? They obviously slapped this storyline together with no plans for it in advance before Scott was dead. It seems so weird for her to just show up suddenly when she had no mention prior.

 

Personally I always thought that Sue went to boarding school or something because they couldn't keep all in the kids in one house. 

Edited by SoupThrower
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Racj82

Racj82

It's funny you should bring up how old Luke Perry looks, because I just had a fifteen minute conversation with my mother this weekend where the gist was that she thought that Luke Perry was Cameron Mathison's father, and didn't believe me when I said they were only three years apart. (file this under "Topics That Come Up While Watching 'Murder, She Baked' on Hallmark Mysteries With Your 65 Year Old Mother")

On another subject, while Brandon is a particularly egregious choice, I don't know why someone would be asking any dude's opinion on whether or not something was sexist unless it was part of a seminar to teach men about sexism or something. Which pretty much underlines what a clueless schmuck Gil actually is. But yay to Andrea for putting it all out there.

I think a guy is capable of understanding what is sexist or not. I don't see the issue there. I mean, would Henry not set Gil straight if asked if he was being dick? I do see a issue with asking a senior in high school as if he's your direct peer. Not mature enough to be giving advice there and don't talk to students like there your bro.

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SnideAsides

SnideAsides

It's funny you should bring up how old Luke Perry looks, because I just had a fifteen minute conversation with my mother this weekend where the gist was that she thought that Luke Perry was Cameron Mathison's father, and didn't believe me when I said they were only three years apart. (file this under "Topics That Come Up While Watching 'Murder, She Baked' on Hallmark Mysteries With Your 65 Year Old Mother")

And yet, when recently asked to give an example to explain the term "dadbod", I went straight to Jason Priestley.

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Tara Ariano

Tara Ariano

I think a guy is capable of understanding what is sexist or not.

 

That's certainly true in the abstract, but to me there's something gross about a guy asking another guy if he's sexist after a woman told him he (or his behaviour) was. Also: it's Gil. And he's asking Brandon. And the fact that Brandon's response is "What's that got to do with anything?" kind of suggests he's not the best person to ask.

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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

(edited)

Just the "If you're saying I'm sexist, you're 100% wrong" says everything you need to know about Gil. Come on, everyone is probably kind of sexist or racist or classist. It comes from growing up in a society with all those things. People that are truly aware recognize they probably operate on stereotype without meaning to. Gil is totally the "I'm the least sexist man on the planet! I love women! I'm a bigger feminist then my girlfriend and I have to explain that to her all the time" guy. In other words, he's future Brandon.

Edited by FozzyBear
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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

Is it just me or is it really creepy watching Dylan play kissy face with Brenda one minute and then tragic love triangle with Kelly the next. If you don't want to be with Brenda then break up with her and see how you and Kelly play out, if that's not what you want then set some clear boundaries with Kelly. It's like he keeps implying that sure, he'll tell Brenda, but only if Kelly guarantees him sex or a relationship after. Otherwise, he'll just stick with Brenda. It's just so shitty of him and such a mind fuck to everyone involved. It's not Kelly's job to force him to tell Brenda anything. If he doesn't break up with Brenda of his own volition what exactly is Kelly supposed to do? I know it's supposed to be DRAMA, but it just comes across as Dylan being manipulative and shitty. Worst boyfriend ever!

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txhorns79

txhorns79

What kills me is despite Andrea being awesome now, by next season, she's a pregnant and married "19" year old.  It's just ridiculous.  Also, I think she actually tries to get into a relationship with Gil until she finds out he is with someone else.  Barf.  

 

I did wonder if maybe they had another actress lined up for Sue who had to leave at the last minute.  That would at least explain some of the weird, ill-fitting outfits they put her in.      

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MissEwa

MissEwa

Also, I think she actually tries to get into a relationship with Gil until she finds out he is with someone else.  

I've been trying to work out if this happened or I was just confusing it with her thing with the drama teacher, so I'm glad someone else remembers something along this line! I know he comes back after graduation but the internet is pretty non-commital about details, just that it turns out he's engaged. Doesn't he bond with Dylan over ocean pollution too? Or maybe that's earlier. I don't know. 

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Racj82

Racj82

That's certainly true in the abstract, but to me there's something gross about a guy asking another guy if he's sexist after a woman told him he (or his behaviour) was. Also: it's Gil. And he's asking Brandon. And the fact that Brandon's response is "What's that got to do with anything?" kind of suggests he's not the best person to ask.

I agree. I just think that the issue is more about who he's asking and not the fact that it's a guy. It's the fact that it's a teenage student and its Brandon. In this case, I kind of feel like he did that because he thought he would have someone who would sooth his ego on the subject. Also, yeah, the fact that he even had to ask tells you more than enough about Gil.
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txhorns79

txhorns79

I've been trying to work out if this happened or I was just confusing it with her thing with the drama teacher, so I'm glad someone else remembers something along this line! I know he comes back after graduation but the internet is pretty non-commital about details, just that it turns out he's engaged. Doesn't he bond with Dylan over ocean pollution too? Or maybe that's earlier. I don't know.

 

I think in the first or second episode of the fourth season, Andrea seeks him out to tell him she is going to go to California University instead of Yale, and offers up some lame-ish reasons to support her decision.  I don't remember exactly, but I think he doesn't respond in the way she wants, so she gets upset, and later comes to apologize, thinks there is some kind of chemistry and meets his girlfriend?  My memory might be off though.  I mostly just remember that Brenda gets sexiled a lot by her roommate in Minnesota.     

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MyAimIsTrue

MyAimIsTrue

I think in the first or second episode of the fourth season, Andrea seeks him out to tell him she is going to go to California University instead of Yale, and offers up some lame-ish reasons to support her decision.  I don't remember exactly, but I think he doesn't respond in the way she wants, so she gets upset, and later comes to apologize, thinks there is some kind of chemistry and meets his girlfriend?  My memory might be off though.  I mostly just remember that Brenda gets sexiled a lot by her roommate in Minnesota.     

 

You remember correctly.  Andrea walked along the beach to get to Gil's beach house and met the girlfriend then, and was devastated. 

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Tara Ariano

Tara Ariano

I agree. I just think that the issue is more about who he's asking and not the fact that it's a guy. It's the fact that it's a teenage student and its Brandon. In this case, I kind of feel like he did that because he thought he would have someone who would sooth his ego on the subject. Also, yeah, the fact that he even had to ask tells you more than enough about Gil.

 

haha, yes. (But I think in general I'd have to side-eye any discussion about sexism in which no woman is involved.)

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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

That's certainly true in the abstract, but to me there's something gross about a guy asking another guy if he's sexist after a woman told him he (or his behaviour) was. Also: it's Gil. And he's asking Brandon. And the fact that Brandon's response is "What's that got to do with anything?" kind of suggests he's not the best person to ask.

Yeah. Can and should men be able to recognize sexist behavior? Of course! Is it pretty shitty to exclude members of an oppressed group from discussions about if they are in fact oppressed? Yes! It's like how if you have a kind of racist relative, they're probably on Facebook right this second talking about how Jada Smith and Spike Lee are overreacting to the Oscars...with a bunch of other white people who have all gotten together to decide everything with the Oscar noms is just fine. There's another side to the argument to be made, but if you're getting together with a bunch WASPs to decide how POC should feel, you've kind of made their point for them.

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AndySmith

AndySmith

While I do believe 2 men can have a legitimate discussion about sexism without a woman present, the fact that 1) one of the guys is Gil and 2) the other guy is Brandon means that the conversation is already a fail before its even started. 

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TaibasJones

TaibasJones

Now I don't remember if that was deliberately a baseball dress or not, but I do remember it!

Much to my shame and mild discomfort I've been thinking a lot about Steve's pepperonis and poor Sue Scanlon and whatnot. I think it's all gleefully appalling to see now, and worth a thousand "BAAAARF!!"s from Tara. But when I was a kid in the frigid Midwest the presentation of this fantasy made me really happy to think that somewhere it was acceptable to chill in a tank top or wear small shorts (even if they would threaten to unleash the Bert and Ernies). Maybe that's why I live on the West Coast now. Scary thought.

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desertflower

desertflower

I am just blown away by that outfit. Never would have been allowed in my high school. I know ripped denim was big in the '90s, and so was spandex...but I only saw stuff like that in music videos. I was already in college when this originally aired. I was in the midwest, we mostly wore pleated jeans and giant sweaters. Was all this denim & spandex & leather actually a thing in high schools on the coasts?

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desertflower

desertflower

Well I went to high school on the East Coast so I can't speak for California, but there was a lot of ripped denim. Lots of jean jackets with patches, or drawn on with Sharpies. Leather not so much since it was more expensive. I remember some girls wearing denim shorts with black tights under them. (They were not denim granny panties like Sue's, though.) In my school most of the ripped denim was worn by the heavy metal girls. We were not allowed to show midriffs so there weren't any bra tops, but some girls wore some cropped tops that pushed the dress code boundaries a bit. Sue's look was excessive but I think it made the point that she was hanging with the "bad kids."

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MissEwa

MissEwa

I think in the first or second episode of the fourth season, Andrea seeks him out to tell him she is going to go to California University instead of Yale, and offers up some lame-ish reasons to support her decision.  I don't remember exactly, but I think he doesn't respond in the way she wants, so she gets upset, and later comes to apologize, thinks there is some kind of chemistry and meets his girlfriend?  My memory might be off though.  I mostly just remember that Brenda gets sexiled a lot by her roommate in Minnesota.     

Yeah that makes sense. I remembered something - and they always have this weird chemistry but that was probably mostly the actors being the same age - but I thought for sure they wouldn't go there given Gil's past dramas with students falling in love with him etc. 

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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

Yeah that makes sense. I remembered something - and they always have this weird chemistry but that was probably mostly the actors being the same age - but I thought for sure they wouldn't go there given Gil's past dramas with students falling in love with him etc.

Yeah, I wouldn't have hated an Andrea/Gil hook up after HS. Wouldn't have loved it, but I could have lived with it. They were ok together, or as ok as GC gets playing romance. Port thing, she just does not create chemistry. Her and IZ were pretty great, but she never looked even remotely attracted to any of her real love interests. Her and JP had zero sparks. The more I watch the show, the less surprised I am GC didn't have much of a career after. She's just not that great. If she's put in exactly the right role opposite exactly the right actor she does ok. Otherwise it's weird mom faces all the hell over the place. It's just painful.

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desertflower

desertflower

I always wanted to like the idea of Gil, because sometimes those "young cool teacher" storylines can be fun, but he just ruins it right off the bat when he cluelessly takes the editor position from Andrea. How did it not occur to him that if she has done it the last two years of course she would want to do it senior year? And then conferring with Brandon about it like they are old buds is so blecch. Apparently all the teachers and professors on this show went to the same University of Inappropriate Teaching. Elvis the drama teacher, Gil, Lucinda, Roy Randolph, Professor Randall...all making terrible choices to varying degrees.

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Racj82

Racj82

Agree or disagree on the topics brought up, I love that this stupid little show inspires interesting discussions.

The only point I've been trying to make is that two men can have of discussion about sexism. Not about should they. I think that depends on are involved. On this show, no dudes should be having that discussion because they are often so thick headed.

I personally have discussions about sexism with guys all the time. Of course, I also have them with women. But, men are capable of having the discussion in a honest and frank way. I wouldn't just talk with any guy about the issue though. Because some would give you the garbage answer you would expect from a Gil or Brandon type. Just have to know who you are talking too.

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MissEwa

MissEwa

(edited)

Yeah, I wouldn't have hated an Andrea/Gil hook up after HS. Wouldn't have loved it, but I could have lived with it. They were ok together, or as ok as GC gets playing romance. 

I would have been okay with it if from a chemistry point-of-view, but not after the Sue thing and the fact that he'd had another student commit suicide over him. I don't know if it's exactly rational but I would find it kind of skeevy if a teacher who had been in those situations and seen the damage they could do hooked up with a just-barely-former student. (I think I would find it a bit skeevy anyway, so soon after graduation - a few years later not so much but right after would bring into question a lot of their earlier interaction. YMMV.)

 

I don't really know what it is about GC - she's pretty enough. And she wasn't great at flirty but she wasn't terrible at it. I almost feel like she was a decent actress but not good enough to hide her real-life-30-year-old discomfort at getting romantic with people a lot younger than her (and who were supposed to be sixteen-year-olds). It's maybe why the best chemistry she had was with Ian, who was the closest to her in age? The styling probably didn't help - seeing someone dressed like a grandma taking her boys to the races one week and then making kissy faces at them the next is never not going to feel weird. 

 

I wonder how she'd have gone if 90210 was ten years later and she was a teacher or a parent with occasional romantic b-plots with actors and characters her own age? 

Edited by MissEwa
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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

I would have been okay with it if from a chemistry point-of-view, but not after the Sue thing and the fact that he'd had another student commit suicide over him. I don't know if it's exactly rational but I would find it kind of skeevy if a teacher who had been in those situations and seen the damage they could do hooked up with a just-barely-former student. (I think I would find it a bit skeevy anyway, so soon after graduation - a few years later not so much but right after would bring into question a lot of their earlier interaction. YMMV.)

I don't really know what it is about GC - she's pretty enough. And she wasn't great at flirty but she wasn't terrible at it. I almost feel like she was a decent actress but not good enough to hide her real-life-30-year-old discomfort at getting romantic with people a lot younger than her (and who were supposed to be sixteen-year-olds). It's maybe why the best chemistry she had was with Ian, who was the closest to her in age? The styling probably didn't help - seeing someone dressed like a grandma taking her boys to the races one week and then making kissy faces at them the next is never not going to feel weird.

I wonder how she'd have gone if 90210 was ten years later and she was a teacher or a parent with occasional romantic b-plots with actors and characters her own age?

The age difference might be part of it and part of why her scenes with IZ played better. I think there's only 3 or 4 years between them and 7 or 8 years between her and JP. But she's about the same age as Peter Kraus and that was the most uncomfortable romance ever. And I thought she had zero sparks with the first college boyfriend and maybe a half a spark with Jessie (he be gone! He be out of here!) I mean I'm sure part of it that she had to overcome bad casting, bad wardrobe, and a badly written character...but I think part of it is she's just not that good.

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