The Godfather Epic

[scarynikki12]

With regard to Kay, in the book she assimilates to the point that the family comes to see her as completely one of them rather than the new Don's non-Italian wife. 

I also liked the Johnny parts fine but I agree the movie doesn't suffer from their absence. 

One bit that I do wish had made it into the movie, though I don't know how without seeming clunky, was the thing about that one family whose entire business was revenge and sending family representatives to them during important meetings kept them from ending bloody. It's been years since I read the book so I can't remember the family name or too many details but I thought that bit was cool. They alluded to it but I'm talking about giving the audience something more specific.

Every time I watch this movie I'm thankful all over again that Coppola succeeded in getting Pacino to play Michael. The Strictly Business scene is brilliant from start to finish including the blocking, cinematography, dialogue, acting of the other characters, etc. That moment when Michael looks up at Sonny, his face still and his eyes cold, and says, "it's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business." is a master craft of acting. That's one of those moments where I truly cannot imagine another actor in the part. Pacino is just outstanding.

[DearEvette]

35 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Every time I watch this movie I'm thankful all over again that Coppola succeeded in getting Pacino to play Michael. The Strictly Business scene is brilliant from start to finish including the blocking, cinematography, dialogue, acting of the other characters, etc. That moment when Michael looks up at Sonny, his face still and his eyes cold, and says, "it's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business." is a master craft of acting. That's one of those moments where I truly cannot imagine another actor in the part. Pacino is just outstanding.

Truly one of the reasons I think this movie is such a masterpiece is Pacino's acting.  His transformation of Michael from the beginning of the movie as this seemingly bright and shiny soldier to the end where he is this cold, dead-eyed ruthless Don, is perfection.  And we watch it happen brick by brick with Pacino's facial expressions and his voice getting even more softly menacing as he becomes that guy.

[Sarah 103]

15 hours ago, Orbert said:

Michael was always very quiet and calculating.  He had to be, the youngest brother, the baby of the family (or was Connie younger than him?  I don't remember). 

I totally agree with your characterization of Michael.

Connie is younger. The birth years of the siblings:

Sonny-1916

Tom (I've seen some sources that say 1917 and others that say 1916)

Fredo-1919

Michael-1920

Connie-1928

The boys are very much a cluster born close together, and then there's a huge gap between Michael and Connie. 

Also, this new production history of the movie is fantastic. It's amazing the movie was ever made and turned out as well as it did. As I was reading it, I was thinking of the miniseries and thinking "they have to include this" or "I really hope they include that"

https://smile.amazon.com/Leave-Gun-Take-Cannoli-Godfather/dp/198215859X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=leave+the+gun+take+the+cannoli+book&qid=1644996222&sprefix=Leave+the+Gun%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-1

Edited February 16, 2022 by Sarah 103

[Columbo]

I'd say Michael's character was made more by who he was, if circumstances were different and he went somewhere else I'm sure his sociopath ways would come to the fore, but maybe in a less deadly way. I think his war service only served as a contrast to the rest of his family.

[BlackberryJam]

16 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

OTP was me just being lazy.

As I said I haven't read the books so I Googled and surprisingly this is a pretty popular discussion on various boards. I've seen people argue both, that he loved Appolonia beyond measure and settled for Kay. I've seen people say that he was thinking of Kay even while in Italy and that Kay is the only person he listens to and that can change his mind about things.

Without reading the book for myself I can't tell which is correct. I know that from the movie the impression I got was that Michael loved Kay pre-Italy and Post-Italy. I always thought that the only difference was that Michael grew colder based on the life he was forced into. 

I'm unsurprised that Michael/Kay and Michael/Apollonia shipping and shipwars exist, because that would be filling a gap in the books. Not that I think the books needed to explore those relationships further, but I can see why people have "filled that in" with headcanons and shipping.

Kay is a realized, if somewhat incomplete, character, while Apollonia is an empty shell. Both are vehicles for Michael's story. But as a woman, I get that people would want to fill in more about Kay and more about Apollonia, a desire to flesh out both to reach a deeper understanding of Michael. 

The Godfather is the story of men and their interactions with other men. Men and how they define, create, interact with and defend family. The Godfather is not a story of women or about women. It is not a story of any man's romantic love for women. All of the women are secondary and plot movers.

Carmela (yeah, she had a name) Corleone, we know almost nothing about her from the film or the books. She prays for Vito. She chastises Connie. She tries to help Kay understand. But those bits are a few pages here and there, a passing line in the film.

Connie, and her relationship with Carlo, moves the plot, from the physical abuse to becoming Michael's support for the children, to her addiction issues and coming back to again support Michael. Her indoctrination into the Corleone way of thinking is smaller, and not the story of the film. 

Kay initially represents a means of escape for Michael, then becomes somewhat assimilated but still an outsider, until she can't take it any more and does that which he can never forgive, finding her escape.

Apollonia, total blank slate.

The other women in the film just walk in and out of scenes. Sonny's wife's big scene is the joke about the size of his penis. Tom's wife gets a mention of him cheating on her, but I don't think she's every on screen speaking, Sonny's affair partners, Fredo's prostitutes, that's pretty much it. 

We can look at all of those female characters and total up their screen time and it probably matches the amount of time we see Clemenza. Tessio is a better developed character than Apollonia and Carmela. 

Anyway, my point is, shipwars between Michael/Kay shippers and Michael/Apollonia shippers are people filling in a gap. Which woman is Michael's true love isn't a question answered or even asked in either the book or the film. 

[Fool to cry]

The first two movies were a nice balance between Puzo and Coppola's very different sensibilities. Part III leaned too much toward Coppola's and that's probably the main reason why it isn't as good. The first two was Puzo writing a mob story and Coppola made it Shakespearean. The third was Coppola taking Shakespeare's King Lear and putting it in the mob world.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Fool to cry

[BlackberryJam]

43 minutes ago, Fool to cry said:

The first two movies were a nice balance between Puzo and Coppola's very different sensibilities. Part III leaned too much toward Coppola's and that's probably the main reason why it isn't as good. The first two was Puzo writing a mob story and Coppola made it Shakespearean. The third was Coppola taking Shakespeare's King Lear and putting it in the mob world.

I love the first two films, and have watched the third ...more than once to try to see if there was something good in there. There really wasn't. I especially love the combined cut of the first two films. 

[Columbo]

The third movie always seemed pointless to me. Michael was too far gone by the end of the second film for there to be any chance of redeeming him in future films.

[Tenshinhan]

Maybe one day someone will take another swing at the novel.  I think a trilogy of films based on the original book alone could do the story justice.  That, or a television adaptation for streaming or whatever.  You could probably get a few seasons out of it.

I'm actually surprised that there weren't more adaptations after the success of the first two films.  No network television series, no Broadway shows.  Maybe it's an issue with the rights or something.

[Fool to cry]

 

 

 

[DearEvette]

The third movie does not exist in my reality.

[BetterButter]

 

[ctlady]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:28 PM, DearEvette said:

Every time I watch this movie I'm thankful all over again that Coppola succeeded in getting Pacino to play Michael. The Strictly Business scene is brilliant from start to finish including the blocking, cinematography, dialogue, acting of the other characters, etc. That moment when Michael looks up at Sonny, his face still and his eyes cold, and says, "it's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business."

After watching it again last weekend, I realized (after umpteen viewings) that in that scene Sonny is standing, Tom is sitting in a chair in the background and Michael is regally seated in the wingback leather chair, legs crossed, arms casually on the rests and calmly relaying the plan to kill Sollozzo.  At that moment, the way he was sitting, handling himself, speaking confidently - it was a foreshadowing of him becoming 'don'

[Sarah 103]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:03 AM, Columbo said:

I'd say Michael's character was made more by who he was, if circumstances were different and he went somewhere else I'm sure his sociopath ways would come to the fore, but maybe in a less deadly way. I think his war service only served as a contrast to the rest of his family.

To me, what really set Michael apart from his brothers and created the contrast was that he went to college. From his late teens there was this sense that he was going to be part of the wider world and something larger/beyond the family. This ties into your comment about if circumstances were different. Before Michael went into the family business, it seems Vito wanted him to go into politics. Can you imagine that ruthlessness and plotting we see from Michael in the movie in a govenor or a senator?  

On 2/17/2022 at 9:54 PM, Tenshinhan said:

Maybe one day someone will take another swing at the novel.  I think a trilogy of films based on the original book alone could do the story justice.  That, or a television adaptation for streaming or whatever.  You could probably get a few seasons out of it.

The stuff that Coppola cut from the novel didn't make it to the screen for a reason. The material wasn't very good/worthwhile. The absolute best of the novel is on the screen. I wouldn't mind a new extended version of the original 1972 movie with all of the deleted scenes includes, but I agree with Coppola's decisions about what parts of the novel to include in the movie and which to leave out of the script. 

On 3/30/2022 at 10:37 AM, ctlady said:

After watching it again last weekend, I realized (after umpteen viewings) that in that scene Sonny is standing, Tom is sitting in a chair in the background and Michael is regally seated in the wingback leather chair, legs crossed, arms casually on the rests and calmly relaying the plan to kill Sollozzo.  At that moment, the way he was sitting, handling himself, speaking confidently - it was a foreshadowing of him becoming 'don'

I agree. In terms of what a difference the actor and the especially the right actor makes, in his notes Coppola thought the scene in Italy where Michael talks to Apollonia's father is the moment the audience will realize he could become the next Don and is very much his father's son. Because of the excellent performance Pacino gave as Michael, the audience realizes it much sooner, in the scene you described. 

[Fool to cry]

So after seeing Part III now as the "Coda" and epilogue to Parts 1 and 2 I can judge it for what it is instead of what it isn't. Yes the ending of Part II was already a fitting tragic end, but Michael was still relatively young. He still had time to redeem himself and make up for the past. It was possible, and what better way by saving the pope's life? His fatal sin was making Vincent head of the Corleone family. Instead of going legitimate like he wanted he ensured after his death that the family would continue into crime causing more pain and suffering and he did it for selfish reasons. He did it to save his daughter but he could have done it differently.  He could have told Vincent "If you want to be with Mary, you have to give up crime." Instead he told him "If you want to be head of the family, you have to give her up." He wanted Vincent away from her AND to help him win against his enemies. So it was fitting that Michael be  punished with her death.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Fool to cry

[Orbert]

I always liked Part III more than most, but never liked the ending.  After all the crap Michael goes through in this movie, "his daughter gets shot, he cries, the end".

Sure, it's a hell of a cry, but I guess I never "got" the scene or looked for any deeper meaning to Mary's death.  Just one more tragedy to hit poor Michael.  In the context of karmic justice, crime and punishment, whatever you want to call it, it makes sense.  So thank you for that.

[Fool to cry]

This was trending today and I decided to post it here. 

 

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

This was trending today and I decided to post it here. 

 

This is a very difficult and also very important question. I'm not on twitter, but my vote would be young Al Pacino. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

This is a very difficult and also very important question. I'm not on twitter, but my vote would be young Al Pacino. 

Agree. And I can't decide, so I would say BOTH.

Whaat?

[Crashcourse]

This is tough, but if you put a gun to my head and I had to pick one, I'd say young DeNiro.  But I'd say 50/50 is right.

[topanga]

22 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

This is tough, but if you put a gun to my head and I had to pick one, I'd say young DeNiro.  But I'd say 50/50 is right.

Yes, 50/50 is a good outcome. Both were quite hot. 

But for me, personally? Young De Niro could get it. 🤷‍♀️ 

[scarynikki12]

I voted for Pacino as he's a bigger theater nerd but the 50/50 result was the right one.

[Spartan Girl]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:05 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Agree. And I can't decide, so I would say BOTH.

Whaat?

[Crashcourse]

I'm watching The Godfather, Part II now, and it's definitely young DeNiro. 😍

[annzeepark914]

I'm watching The Godfather right now. Jeez-- that scene, showing the front of the hospital, with the colored Xmas lights and the ominous music. It gets me *every* time. Will Michael be able to protect his dad? Who's coming up the stairs? What a great movie!

[annzeepark914]

I turned it off after what happened to Appolonia, and Michael going to NH to woo (back) Kay. It gets too depressing from this point on. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I just love the end, when Carlo finds out he's not going to Vegas, and that little "talk" he has with him, and then settles all of his family's accounts.

[Crashcourse]

There were so many classic lines, but one of my favorites is Clemenza's "Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

[Fool to cry]

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Let's try this again. Found this as I was scrollling through youtube* on Wednesday. 10 years out of date, but interesting and had me going down the rabbithole.

I just ignore who's interviewing them. I had totally forgotten that Talia is Coppola's sister! So many articles have things wrong!

Like other videos I've found have producers stating they wanted Redford or O'Neal to play Michael because he was described as blonde and blue-eyed in the book-WRONG. That was Carlo! Michael was described as Al looked!

Then there's the cat. Francis found him-no Marlon did-NO! Francis did! OY! Who cares? I just love how gentle Vito/Brando is with the kitty and so natural.

Anyhoo, thanks to DeNiro....

 

[EtheltoTillie]

Ha ha the oranges on the table. RIP James Caan. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

EGADS!

Thank Goodness for Francis Ford Coppola-he got rid of the horrible stuff and elevated the characters of Carmela (Mama Corleone), Connie, and Tom. And yes, even Michael from the book.

The stereotypical Italian accent for Mama in the book was downright dreadful and she wasn't the strong character we saw played by Morgana King. Though it is interesting that both Carmela and Vito lost their accents within 20 years, while my parents still had theirs, even after living in the states for over 35! And that DeNiro's Vito didn't wear a wedding ring, but Marlon Brando's Vito did. But I also loved the New York (don't know which borough) accent that Morgana had.

I really wish that the 50th Anniversary, HELL, the 4K version would have the FULL movie with all the deleted scenes IN THE MOVIE. Did USA only have the rights to do that back in the day? When the F-Bombs and other swearing were bleeped out? I saw that AMC has ALL the deleted scenes (youtube), so I'm wondering if they ever air the first two, if we'll get the "Saga" that includes ALL of the deleted scenes.

And I also want a horsie.

Edited December 28, 2023 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I also want a horsie.

I could have lived a long happy life without witnessing THAT SCENE.

I mean, we already KNEW that the Corleones were terrible people that do terrible things, especially as the film progressed. Was the horse decapitation really necessary to drive that point, when there were other ways they could intimidate the director without killing an innocent animal?!

And what does it say that Vito didn’t have a problem with that, but somehow killing the Bonasera daughter’s rapists was beneath him?! Weird standards.

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And what does it say that Vito didn’t have a problem with that, but somehow killing the Bonasera daughter’s rapists was beneath him?! Weird standards.

I don't care. I love Brando (this was my first movie of his I watched) and his portrayal of Vito. And correction---those asshats didn't rape her-they beat her so badly, that she had to have her jaw wired shut. Even some people on the internets get this wrong. She wasn't raped. Even in the book-she wasn't raped. That's why they got off with suspended sentences. Bonasera even says that she saved her honor.

One of the things I love about the opening scene is Brando/Vito, stroking and playing with the kitty. So at odds with the conversation. And that the kitty loved it so much, its purring was so loud, they had re-record the dialogue, afterwards!

That said, I always close my eyes when I hear that music and know what's coming. and Woltz wasn't going to change his mind and he LOVED Khartoum. He was a gorgeous horse. 

ETA: Not to mention, that Woltz was a fucking pedophile and rapist.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And correction---those asshats didn't rape her-they beat her so badly, that she had to have her jaw wired shut. Even some people on the internets get this wrong. She wasn't raped. Even in the book-she wasn't raped. That's why they got off with suspended sentences. Bonasera even says that she saved her honor.

My mistake, I should’ve just said would-be rapists. 😉

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That said, I always close my eyes when I hear that music and know what's coming. and Woltz wasn't going to change his mind and he LOVED Khartoum. He was a gorgeous horse. 

ETA: Not to mention, that Woltz was a fucking pedophile and rapist

And I would’ve been fine if instead of killing poor Khartoum, Tom Hagen and the gang had just beaten the living shit out of him and made sure he wasn’t physically able to rape anybody ever again, if you know what I mean. 

[Fool to cry]

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Rewatched the first just the other night after watching The Offer. Sure, based n Ruddy’s notes, book, whatever he said. Made it seem he was the savior and the only one fighting to get the movie made, even if he had to let the real mob get their hands on it. And he wasn’t involved with II, by choice or not, I don’t know.

And I’m sure that’s why no one in the DVDs ever mentions Colombo’s and others making sure “mafia” isn’t mentioned in the first movie. Also interesting Ruddy isn’t in ANY of the featurettes. The only interview I ever caught of his was on YouTube.

Also interesting that Robert Evans doesn’t once mention Ruddy-when that mini series portrayed them as having a close relationship, if you will. So, eye roll to that, as the actor they got for Pacino had the voice and look down pat-but had him acting like Dustin Hoffman’s autistic character from Rain Man”

I really do wish the scenes of Brando that were cut out hadn’t been. Or the ones where Sonny tells Carmella about Vito’s shooting.

One of these days I want “The Saga” released, F-bombs restored, along with any other swear words so I can watch it without having to pull out the special features to watch the deleted scenes!

And I’m happy to be the outlier and state that I prefer I to II! Even though the second gave is the uberly HAWT DeNiro! And as @DearEvette stated above, III doesn’t exist in my reality.

Edited November 10 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

I read Pacino’s new book a few weeks ago. Apparently the original script to Part III was Michael getting killed in front of a church and spending his last few minutes falsely assuring Kay that he wasn’t going to die. Pacino liked that ending better than how the movie turned out.

Oh, the Coda cut was on TV the other day. It did NOT make the movie better. 

[MissAlmond]

On 11/11/2024 at 6:15 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I read Pacino’s new book a few weeks ago. Apparently the original script to Part III was Michael getting killed in front of a church and spending his last few minutes falsely assuring Kay that he wasn’t going to die. Pacino liked that ending better than how the movie turned out.

Oh, the Coda cut was on TV the other day. It did NOT make the movie better. 

Sofia Coppola’s acting and character irritated me throughout the movie. I’m glad somebody made the decision to bump her off. 

Edited November 13 by MissAlmond

[Palimelon]

I wonder how different it would have been had Winona Ryder been able to play the role of Mary.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, Palimelon said:

I wonder how different it would have been had Winona Ryder been able to play the role of Mary.

Honestly, I don’t think better acting would have made a difference. The script itself just sucked.

[Palimelon]

True, but it could have made her scenes less painful to watch.