All Episodes Talk: Walk With Me

[Driad]

Happy Giant Ball of Cheese Day!

[ProudMary]

From "Bad Moon Rising"

President Josiah Bartlet: I'm confident in your loyalty to me; I'm confident in your love for me. If you lie to protect me, if you lie just once, if you lie just a little, if you lie 'cause you can't stand what's happening to me and the people making it happen, if you ever, ever lie, you're finished with me. You understand?

Charlie Young: Yes, sir.

President Josiah Bartlet: Say you understand.

Charlie Young: I understand, sir.

[AriAu]

I came here to discuss something else and then got distracted with the fact that people are still playing 6 Degrees of The West Wing with characters that pass away.

Paxton Whitehead was in Mad About You with

Helen Hunt who was in Bobby with

Martin Sheen

What I came here to mention is that Mrs Au was watching The Diplomat and I was like "that dialogue sounds familiar....only with a lot more swearing..." and sure enough it was written by Deborah Cahn. Not TWW level, but certainly familiar.

[txhorns79]

I'm doing a rewatch, and I notice in Season 1, Bartlett tells Hoynes that they don't get along because Hoynes made him beg when it came to accepting the nomination.  Then we see the flashback a couple seasons later and it turns out that Bartlett only told Hoynes about the MS right when he offered him the VP nomination.  I kept thinking: Of course Hoynes made you beg!  You beat him in the primaries, then revealed you'd been hiding a debilitating illness the entire time.  I'd be furious at Bartlett for doing that, and I would really consider not wanting to be on a ticket with someone who had been that dishonest.   

[juno]

I just re-watched the Season 2 episode 1 (In the Shadow...). I watch the following happen, Ron discovering that the President had been hit, to Hospital being non plused about it until they discover the reality of the situation, to the discovery that Josh was hit to the tension in the Emerg room.

I have probably have not seen many specific episodes in the history of TV better than this. Just an absolutely electric hour of TV with tension and killer writing. My favourite line The President: "This guy has probably 7 broken bones in his hand, can someone get him an aspirin?"

Episode 2 when they go into how the gang got together was almost as great. The scene with Josh and the President in the airport is simply amazing.

Edited July 27, 2023 by juno

[Guest]

I love that episode. There are small moments that make me laugh interspersed with all the drama, as well as moments that make me tear up.  Toby finding Josh and going from annoyed to concerned is a tearful one. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I love that episode.

There is that moment at the hospital when the nurse answers the special phone, asks if this is a drill, then sees the sirens and realizes this is the real thing.  I think she says: "Oh shit...," but it's muffled because this is network tv.  It was just one of those moments that shows you how fast things can go from calm to absolute chaos.  Also, she's played by Denise Dowse who was Mrs. Teasley on 90210.   

[Orcinus orca]

11 hours ago, deaja said:

I love that episode. 

There are four or five that I have seen so often that I can recite the dialog.  This is one of them.

[SoMuchTV]

I don't think anyone has posted about this yet - mini-West Wing reunion on the latest episode of The Wonder Years (S02.E06):

Quote

After Bill [series regular Dulé Hill] befriends Dean's music teacher [guest star Bradley Whitford], Bill and Lillian attend a party at his house and the evening takes an unexpected turn; with their parents away, Dean, Bruce and Kim make their own plans for the night.

 

[ProudMary]

Since HBO Max became Max, Warner Brothers TV has been releasing these short compilation clips for several of its shows, including The West Wing. I've watched a few. This one is particularly good.

 

[AriAu]

Quote

I love that episode. There are small moments that make me laugh interspersed with all the drama, as well as moments that make me tear up.

The start at the Whistle Pig Diner is just so perfect....and so satisfying all at the same time., as is the scene with CJ's press conference about POTUS being shot by the best trained armed guards in the history of the world-no, I did not need to look up the quote! 

Quote

Quote

There are four or five that I have seen so often that I can recite the dialog.  This is one of them.

There are many, many, MANY that I have seen enough to recite the dialog, but none more than this 2 parter.

When a client tells me that they don't like the approach we suggest to protect them,  I almost always paraphrase Ron Butterfield "I would never let you not let me protect the President. You tell us you don't like something, we figure out something else."

Ya fell in the pool there CJ....avert your eyes.

I think they'd call it a coup d'tat....I imagine I'd do so time for that.

[Guest]

The least favorite part of those episodes is the CJ flashbacks.  She's my favorite character, so maybe I'm a little defensive of her. But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client? It is contradictory to EVERYTHING we've seen of CJ. Even if she thought the movies were dumb, she wouldn't be so completely unprepared.  Not to mention, forgetting your glasses, unless you have a very serious vision issue, is not generally going to make your eyesight so poor that you don't see a SWIMMING POOL in your own backyard.  

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client? It is contradictory to EVERYTHING we've seen of CJ. Even if she thought the movies were dumb, she wouldn't be so completely unprepared.

In the first season, when they are at that Los Angeles fundraiser, CJ doesn't know what someone who is in development at a studio does, so perhaps it tracks that she is just really bad when it comes to dealing with the entertainment industry?  

My main issue with CJ was that it was absurd that she was promoted to Chief of Staff after Leo had his heart attack.  In no way is she qualified to handle that position.         

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, deaja said:

Not to mention, forgetting your glasses, unless you have a very serious vision issue, is not generally going to make your eyesight so poor that you don't see a SWIMMING POOL in your own backyard.  

That one I'll accept; she didn't fail to see the pool, she was just so busy squint-staring at the fuzzy blob across the yard trying to figure out who it was she didn't pay attention to what was in front of her feet, bumped into the chair, lost her balance, and fell into the pool. 

8 hours ago, deaja said:

But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client?

C.J. not knowing the basics about the entertainment industry while getting paid over half a million dollars a year to do PR at a huge firm for studios, however, I will not.

[AriAu]

Paul Rubens was in Pee-wee's Big Top with

Valeria Golino who was in Rain Man with

Tom Cruise who was in A Few Good Men with

Joshua Malina (or which was written by AS).

Yeah, and no matter how "checked out" CJ was, there is no chance that she didn't know when the Golden Globes nominations were coming out....socially awkward, sure, a little condescending, possibly, but unprepared, never.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, AriAu said:

Yeah, and no matter how "checked out" CJ was, there is no chance that she didn't know when the Golden Globes nominations were coming out....socially awkward, sure, a little condescending, possibly, but unprepared, never.

Exactly! And as a PR person on the West Coast, there is no way she would expect to be able to work East Coast hours. I know news cycles weren’t quite as immediate then without Twitter, et al, but news stories still often broke in the early hours on Today Show, GMA, etc. For her to be like “at this hour?” rang false to me. 

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, deaja said:

Exactly! And as a PR person on the West Coast, there is no way she would expect to be able to work East Coast hours. I know news cycles weren’t quite as immediate then without Twitter, et al, but news stories still often broke in the early hours on Today Show, GMA, etc. For her to be like “at this hour?” rang false to me. 

Hell, crazy dedicated fans get up at the crack of dawn on the West Coast to see the nominations being announced from NY.  People working in the industry certainly know those are going to be early mornings.

They could have still had the plot point of Isobel agreeing to fire her in order to keep the studio's business just by C.J. being disdainful and smart-mouthed; they didn't need the part about her not bothering to learn anything about the industry.

[Orcinus orca]

Game on!

[Guest]

Episode 7.4 is one of the weirdest episodes in the series (yes, I'm watching it as I type this, so these things are very fresh).

Kate Harper is so rude to Mr. Frost.  Making fun of his clothes, not acknowledging that he was correct, etc. Of course, she kinda sucks in general, so this part might not be weird.

The Bartlet's coded discussion about how glad they are Ellie is straight. 

Even the way the opening is literally replaying the last minute of the previous episode.

The Toby stuff is well done (except the whole leak stuff) and I like Abby's realization that Ellie is pregnant as she takes away the champagne. 

[Crs97]

Taking away the champagne glass is my favorite part of that scene.  I also love Bartlett having the fiancé meet the joint chiefs and the look he gives CJ when she asks if he planned that.

Vic seemed like a good guy and someone Ellie would have fallen in love with.

[txhorns79]

Rob Lowe had some thoughts about leaving TWW in Season 4.  He refers to his leaving as the "best thing he ever did."  He said he did not have a good experience on the show and felt "undervalued."  My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.   

[Orcinus orca]

33 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.

That is what I read as well;  Bartlet was just supposed to be more in the background. But Martin Sheen had such a stage presence that they completely changed the premise of the show.

[CheshireCat]

1 minute ago, Orcinus orca said:

That is what I read as well;  Bartlet was just supposed to be more in the background. But Martin Sheen had such a stage presence that they completely changed the premise of the show.

I think it's a good thing they did. I really like his quick-witted and dry/sarcastic humor. Yes, Toby, Josh and Sam had some great lines as well but Bartlet took the show to the next level.

[juno]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Rob Lowe had some thoughts about leaving TWW in Season 4.  He refers to his leaving as the "best thing he ever did."  He said he did not have a good experience on the show and felt "undervalued."  My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.   

One thing I noticed about his character is that as dynamic, smart and funny as he was, he either had very little chemistry with any females on the show or Sorkin would not allow any character to become a long time mate. Laurie was okay but they wrote her out fast. Mallory was great and so was Ainsley so this is what always puzzled me. I know they had some other commitments but they could have found someone else if they wanted to.

My only guess was that to add characters it would cost money. Lots. A guest star has to become reoccurring and then permanent. They moved Amy Gardner to reoccurring but not permanent. They did not seem to want Sam to have anything reoccurring for some reason unlike Josh.

Edited August 10, 2023 by juno

[Crs97]

I loved Sam, and I loved him with Mallory.  I was sorry to see him leave.

[Guest]

I liked Sam best with Ainsley. 
 

Last night, I watched the episode in Season 7 where Josh goes to get him. I think it would have made more sense for Sam to come to Leo’s funeral and then to talk there. I think they wanted the symmetry of Josh literally finding him in a board room again, but I just feel Sam would have been at Leo’s funeral. 

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

I liked Sam best with Ainsley. 

They did have a nice chemistry.  If only Emily Procter hadn't gone off to CSI: Miami, perhaps things would have been different.  

[Crs97]

I liked him with Ainsley, too.  I hated the prostitute storyline beyond his accidentally sleeping with her in the pilot ("This is bad on so many levels!").   I thought Rob had chemistry with most of the cast.

[schnauzergirl]

I've tried to imagine The West Wing without Martin Sheen's President Bartlet front and center and it's never worked for me.  

Edited August 10, 2023 by schnauzergirl

[ProudMary]

From Enemies; Season 1, Episode 8

President Bartlet (to Josh Lyman): What you got?
Josh: The Antiquities Act. You're going to establish Big Sky National Park.
(The President chuckles.)
Josh (Smiling): Yeah.
Bartlet: I can do this?
Josh: Yeah.
Bartlet: You understand it's a bunch of rocks, right?
Josh: I'm sure someone with your encyclopedic knowledge of the ridiculous and dork-like, will be able to find a tree or a ferret that the public has a right to visit.
Bartlet: More than a right, Josh.
Josh: Sir?
Bartlet: It's a treat.
Josh: Yes, sir.
Bartlet: You would enjoy nature.
Josh: I've tried nature, sir.
Bartlet: The Antiquities Act.
Josh: Yes, sir.
Bartlet: This is simplicity itself.
Josh: Yes, sir.
Bartlet: Good job.
Josh: Thank you, sir.
Bartlet: Thank you.

[slasherboy]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:15 PM, CheshireCat said:

I think it's a good thing they did. I really like his quick-witted and dry/sarcastic humor. Yes, Toby, Josh and Sam had some great lines as well but Bartlet took the show to the next level.

And CJ

[Crs97]

My favorite comment about national parks:  according to Josh, Shenandoah National Park is as good a place as any to dump President Bartlett’s body.

 

[Orcinus orca]

12 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

My favorite comment about national parks:  according to Josh, Shenandoah National Park is as good a place as any to dump President Bartlett’s body.

"Did I say that out loud"?

[ProudMary]

Each day's news seems to bring new opportunities for West Wing throwbacks!

 

[Artsda]

 

[storyskip]

On something like my 20th re-watch.

Disclaimer - I have watched the whole series, and there are specific episodes in Seasons 5/6/7 that I will re-watch if I am in the mood.

But on the whole? Am I the only one who, on re-watch, imagines the series "ends" at 4x21?

[Orcinus orca]

48 minutes ago, storyskip said:

But on the whole? Am I the only one who, on re-watch, imagines the series "ends" at 4x21?

Table for two.  I slogged through season 5 on the first run but gave up after that.  I only rewatch the first four seasons anymore.  Those were magic.

[SoMuchTV]

Anyone familiar with the podcast This Day in Esoteric Political History?  (I’m guessing there’s at least some overlap with West Wing fans!) They basically pick a day (like the title says) and talk about it. The most recent episode talks about September 21, 1999, the day TWW premiered. With guest Hrishikesh Hirway, of TWW podcast fame. I found it very interesting. 

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Orcinus orca said:

2 hours ago, storyskip said:

But on the whole? Am I the only one who, on re-watch, imagines the series "ends" at 4x21?

Table for two.  I slogged through season 5 on the first run but gave up after that. 

Raises hand.  What I thought was interesting is one summer my kids discovered TWW and binge watched it (around 16 and 15 at the time).  Lots of animated discussions for weeks.  Suddenly they stopped talking about it and I asked whether they had finished it or were just taking a break.  Sure enough, they said somewhere early in season 5 the show changed and was no longer interesting.  I couldn’t get them to try any later episode after that.

[Orcinus orca]

2 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Raises hand.  What I thought was interesting is one summer my kids discovered TWW and binge watched it (around 16 and 15 at the time).  Lots of animated discussions for weeks.  Suddenly they stopped talking about it and I asked whether they had finished it or were just taking a break.  Sure enough, they said somewhere early in season 5 the show changed and was no longer interesting.  I couldn’t get them to try any later episode after that.

Bottom line....Sorkin left.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, storyskip said:

But on the whole? Am I the only one who, on re-watch, imagines the series "ends" at 4x21?

No, I actually like a good portion of Seasons 6 and 7. There are parts I dislike as well (basically all of Season 5) and plotlines I hate, but I like much of the Santos/Vinnick stuff.

[jah1986]

55 minutes ago, deaja said:

No, I actually like a good portion of Seasons 6 and 7. There are parts I dislike as well (basically all of Season 5) and plotlines I hate, but I like much of the Santos/Vinnick stuff.

I agree. I jump back in towards the end of season 6, (love those last two episodes) and enjoy most of season 7. There were only a few duds during season 7 in my opinion.

[CheshireCat]

5 hours ago, deaja said:

No, I actually like a good portion of Seasons 6 and 7. There are parts I dislike as well (basically all of Season 5) and plotlines I hate, but I like much of the Santos/Vinnick stuff.

Me, too. What I don't like is that they didn't seem to know what to do with the WH anymore. I don't recall if they said when the campaign started and if they did, when it started but while Bartlet may have been a lame-duck president at that point, I doubt that he would have just sat around waiting for time to pass.

Someone in the writers' room or showrunners' room or both would have needed to sit down and ask what would it be that Bartlet would still want to accomplish that he hasn't been able to accomplish so far and how could he do that, either by getting Congress to cooperate or by going around Congress. (ETA: Basically, they should have seen through what they had Leo start. It's a pity that the list he made never amounted to anything, at least, I don't recall that it did).

One thing I really disliked was that they solved the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'm all for television shows being idealistic but that conflict is so complex that I felt it was disrespectful and arrogant to have it be resolved, especially in a two or three-part episode. If anything, it should have been a season-long arc but definitely not this quick. (I also don't think that it fit the show given that many episodes ended rather ambiguously and the show was always more realistic than idealistic). Even Madam Secretary didn't resolve that conflict but only took a step towards peace and that show was idealistic.

[storyskip]

Okay. Re-watch # 100+ in the books, time for some unpopular opinions.

1. I found the storyline of CJ becoming COS to be patronizing, forced and just bad. I am a female viewer and I feel about that storyline the way Ainsley did about the ERA. I did not need John Wells and the other MALE writers and producers of the show to come along and patronize me, as a viewer, with the message of "Oh look at us being all progressive and making this female character the second most powerful person in the WW universe!!"

Do not get me wrong. Allison Janney is a FANTASTIC actress and up until she was made COS I loved the character of CJ Cregg. But 3/4 of an episode devoted to making bumbling idiots out of Josh and Toby, does NOT set up an organic reason to have CJ jump so many more qualified people into the COS office.

Josh was probably the in universe obvious successor, but in my opinion there was more set up from season 1 for Toby to go into the role. Toby, who had been with the President since the first campaign. Toby, who was shown to have political savvy. Toby, who could have been an interesting foil for the President, because while Leo knew how to 'handle' the President, Toby had been shown he wasn't afraid to stand his ground and openly argue with the President. 

We (the audience) had seen that when Toby had the right read on a situation, he usually had the politics to be 5 moves ahead on the board. COS wasn't just a role about how many balls you can keep in the air; that was just part of the job. It was also about being able to read the political landscape and have position 5 steps ahead. CG Cregg was a PR genius, but not a political operative.

2. I hate, loath, despise the Kate Harper character. That's it. Just, I FF anytime she is on the screen.

3. The decision to introduce conflict in the Jed/Leo friendship was stupid. I hate discussing Leo's health issues given the tragic loss of John Spencer, but if Wells absolutely had to move the pieces around on the board, he could have moved that SL up into Season 5 and bumped Leo out of the COS role earlier. Instead of assassinating his character and one of the core relationships in the show.

Honestly, that whole choice stinks of "omg this bromance is icky and interferes with our ability to write 'will they/won't they' soap opera with our female characters. We need to get the male friendship out of our show." Stargate SG-1 went the same route with Jack and Daniel.

4. Santos was too much Jed Bartlett 2.0 and I loathed his wife. Sorkin teased Hoynes return back in Season 4 and honestly? Given what initially drew me to the West Wing in the earlier seasons, I would have been more engaged watching the behind the scenes kingmaking Leo, Josh and Co would have had to engage in to rebuild Hoynes into a viable candidate. Especially against Vinnick. 

[Crs97]

Storyskip, I co-sign your entire post, especially #1!!

[caitmcg]

2 hours ago, storyskip said:

Santos was too much Jed Bartlett 2.0

I did not mind the Santos campaign storyline, but I always thought it would have been more interesting, story-wise, to have Vinnick win. That might not meet the WW wish-fulfillment brief, but it seeing how all the stalwarts adjusted to that transition might have been more compelling. 

[juno]

28 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

I did not mind the Santos campaign storyline, but I always thought it would have been more interesting, story-wise, to have Vinnick win. That might not meet the WW wish-fulfillment brief, but it seeing how all the stalwarts adjusted to that transition might have been more compelling. 

Funny you should bring this up. I have some thoughts;

I really wanted West Wing to go at least another season because I wanted to see what all the personnel changes would look like. I wanted to also see Sam back and new Secretary of State Vinick.

I could not stomach anything related to the Whitehouse; CJ as COS and the awful Will and Kate. I used to fast forward to the campaign where at least interesting things were happening.

I could not stand Helen Santos, entitled, arrogant and rude to staff.

Josh and Donna getting together was the most un-exciting moment on tv ever.

 

 

[HyeChaps]

IIRC, if John Spencer hadn't died, the plan was to have Vinick win.

[storyskip]

4 hours ago, HyeChaps said:

IIRC, if John Spencer hadn't died, the plan was to have Vinick win.

Yeah, that's a pretty well known bit of commentary from various sources. The change being that the double blow of losing John Spencer (Leo) and the West Wing was more sadness then the producers wanted to heap onto everybody; cast/audience/etc.

[Guest]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:56 PM, storyskip said:

Okay. Re-watch # 100+ in the books, time for some unpopular opinions.

1. I found the storyline of CJ becoming COS to be patronizing, forced and just bad. I am a female viewer and I feel about that storyline the way Ainsley did about the ERA. I did not need John Wells and the other MALE writers and producers of the show to come along and patronize me, as a viewer, with the message of "Oh look at us being all progressive and making this female character the second most powerful person in the WW universe!!"

Do not get me wrong. Allison Janney is a FANTASTIC actress and up until she was made COS I loved the character of CJ Cregg. But 3/4 of an episode devoted to making bumbling idiots out of Josh and Toby, does NOT set up an organic reason to have CJ jump so many more qualified people into the COS office.

Josh was probably the in universe obvious successor, but in my opinion there was more set up from season 1 for Toby to go into the role. Toby, who had been with the President since the first campaign. Toby, who was shown to have political savvy. Toby, who could have been an interesting foil for the President, because while Leo knew how to 'handle' the President, Toby had been shown he wasn't afraid to stand his ground and openly argue with the President. 

We (the audience) had seen that when Toby had the right read on a situation, he usually had the politics to be 5 moves ahead on the board. COS wasn't just a role about how many balls you can keep in the air; that was just part of the job. It was also about being able to read the political landscape and have position 5 steps ahead. CG Cregg was a PR genius, but not a political operative.

2. I hate, loath, despise the Kate Harper character. That's it. Just, I FF anytime she is on the screen.

3. The decision to introduce conflict in the Jed/Leo friendship was stupid. I hate discussing Leo's health issues given the tragic loss of John Spencer, but if Wells absolutely had to move the pieces around on the board, he could have moved that SL up into Season 5 and bumped Leo out of the COS role earlier. Instead of assassinating his character and one of the core relationships in the show.

Honestly, that whole choice stinks of "omg this bromance is icky and interferes with our ability to write 'will they/won't they' soap opera with our female characters. We need to get the male friendship out of our show." Stargate SG-1 went the same route with Jack and Daniel.

4. Santos was too much Jed Bartlett 2.0 and I loathed his wife. Sorkin teased Hoynes return back in Season 4 and honestly? Given what initially drew me to the West Wing in the earlier seasons, I would have been more engaged watching the behind the scenes kingmaking Leo, Josh and Co would have had to engage in to rebuild Hoynes into a viable candidate. Especially against Vinnick. 

I almost completely agree. Especially on the first two points. I think Kate is my least favorite character on the show (barring characters we are obviously supposed to dislike). CJ was, for most of the show, my favorite but once she was CoS, she lost so much of what made her my favorite. I still maintain Josh would have been a more natural choice, but an argument could also be made for Toby. Or Josh considers the job, but ultimately decides to hit the trail instead. 
 

I think the lore of the writers changing the ending is inconsistent- different sources have said different things. 
 

Helen Santos I like at times but other times I want to tell her to relax. Same with her husband interestingly enough. Except I like him better overall. 
 

My most unpopular opinion is that I don’t like Donna. For all she claims Josh held her back, we routinely see him include her in higher level stuff. Assistant to the deputy chief of staff is NOT an unskilled entry level position like she portrays it when she decides she wants more, and her career “glow up” is completely unrealistic. And I find so much of their relationship cringeworthy and that doesn’t when they get together.